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Futuretalk with Rich Dolan

Click here for the video presentation

February 26, 2011


Richard Dolan (Rich): I think, I’ve often felt that I’m a less interesting person to interview than a lot of the people that you’ve had. I never pretend to have a lot of dramatic inside information that Camelot has really become famous for putting out. So, I’m just a lot more pedestrian in my way.

Bill Ryan (Bill): You...

Kerry Cassidy (Kerry): [laughs] So...

Bill: That is such a lot of nonsense. [laughs]

Rich: I’m like the... [laughs] Well, we could get that on camera then, right? [laughs]

Bill: That is nonsense. Are the cameras rolling? [to Kerry] I think that you should introduce Rich.

Kerry: Okay.

Bill: Okay. Because you’ve got the deep history here.

Kerry: [chuckles] Deep, very deep. No, yes. I have the deep info on Rich.

Bill: Spill the beans.

Kerry: The 411...

Rich: [chuckles]

Bill: Here we go.

Kerry: ...as it were. Okay, this is Kerry Cassidy.

Rich: And this is Bill Ryan.

Kerry: ...from Project Camelot and we’re here with Rich Dolan. And, we’re about to do a Futuretalk with Rich Dolan, which will be very interesting. And just to refresh the audience’s mind on what a Camelot Futuretalk is all about, it’s basically sort of a roundtable discussion between the three of us. It’s not so much to go into your material, because, although you’re the author of UFOs and the National Security State and they’re volume I and volume II, and they’re huge thick books and you’re an incredible historian.

Bill: Highly recommended. I want to plug these books on your behalf.

Kerry: Yeah. [laughs]

Rich: Please do.

Bill: Yeah.

Kerry: [laughs] Yeah. Absolutely.

Bill: I really want to... I really want to plug this stuff. They’re very, very...

Rich: ...by all means, guys. [laughs]

Bill: It’s a wonderful historical document and possibly, in future time, it will be considered one of the most important historical documents of this critical time.

Rich: Thanks.

Kerry: Yeah, I would say it’s the quintessential history of UFOs, as we know them, at this... up to, up to... well, up to the year you ended on, and I’m sure you’re off to the next one. Right?

Rich: I’m currently working on that third volume, which will take the story to the present day, that’s right.

Kerry: Yeah.

Rich: Yeah.

Bill: Are you going to be able to catch up with the present day, or is the present day accelerating away from you?

Rich: [sighs] Well, who knows. I think that I’ll have the third volume done in about two years, coincidentally, with the... toward the latter part of the year 2012. Won’t that be interesting? Possibly I’ll have it finished on December 21, 2012, for all I know.

Bill: Good job.

Kerry: Okay. Well, I have to say that we’re both... we’re all three extremely verbal, so this is going to be a real challenge to speak one after the other, rather than on top of each other, but we’re going to try.

Rich: Let’s do our best.

Kerry: [laughs] So... And it’s fun to be with somebody who’s really as verbal as we are. [laughs] So, at any rate, I would like for you to give a little bit of your background for the people that will watch this [who] won’t know anything about you, because the whole Rhodes Scholar Finalist-type thing, whatever, however you say that and...

Rich: Yeah, sure. I’ve been writing and researching UFOs for a little over fifteen years now, since the mid-’90s. Prior to that I was Mr. Academic Ph.D.-wannabe. I was working on a Ph.D. in Cold War Studies at the University of Rochester in New York State. At that time, I was focusing on the presidency of Harry Truman, birth of the National Security apparatus that I’ve come to write about in my later books. In particular, I was doing a doctoral dissertation on Truman, and this particular document called NSC68. In National Security, among those historians, it’s actually a very well known Cold War-type of document. That was my thing.

Prior to that, incidentally, I was a finalist for the Rhodes Scholarship. That was when I was an undergraduate student at Alfred University. My professors encouraged me to apply for the Rhodes, and I made the final cut, so not too bad. That was an interesting experience. Incidentally, I did an interview down in New York City. The main woman running that interview was a... continually talked about how she was a close friend of Henry Kissinger.

Kerry: [laughs]

Rich: I’ll never forget this. This was back in 1984.

Kerry: Big warning.

Rich: Oh, big time. Let me tell you, even then, I really did... had a total aversion to anything connected to Kissinger, and it really turned me off. And I’d never said this to any other interviewer, but I really think that, in a sense, I torpedoed my own interview. I didn’t come across well in that interview. I think I had an attitude to these people.

Kerry: [laughs]

Rich: And a lot of it was because of the environment that I found myself within. Suddenly, not knowing everything connected with the Rhodes, the scholarship, that I’d learned later, just as a tool of the elite, let’s say. Back then, it was just something that I thought I wanted, but being in that environment, I was really turned off, and I didn’t give a very good interview, in my own opinion. I didn’t get it.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: Dodged a bullet, maybe!

Kerry: Absolutely.

Bill: Absolutely.

Kerry: Well, and bought you over to us and this whole, sort of, arena that we’re in and probably made you a very, very unique individual out there in the milieu...

Rich: [sighs]

Kerry: ...because a person with your credentials and your sort of methodical way of going about things...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: At the same time, you’re a fabulous writer. You could have been a journalist by trade.

Rich: Thanks.

Kerry: And you’re also a very interesting critical thinker, I have to say.

Rich: Thank you, Kerry.

Kerry: So when you take that, an ability with story, and then, on top of it, you’re a fabulous speaker, and I’ve sort of chided you about that, and tried to get you to be even more fiery than you are...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: ...because you have it in you. And...

Bill: And everybody likes him. Everybody respects him.

Kerry: Yeah.

Bill: He’s very good looking. He wears a suit.

Kerry: [laughs]

Rich: [laughs heartily]

Bill: And I think this makes him highly suspicious.

Kerry: Highly suspicious.

Bill: He’s much too good to be true. He’s got to be a clone.

Kerry: Oh, right, right, okay. Well, no, I have to say. And you’re also, you have an interesting background even beyond that, because you... I don’t know if you want to go into any of that, so I don’t want to... we can always erase something from the tape or not put it on...

Rich: Oh, okay.

Kerry: ...if I say something that’s not acceptable, because I know that you have sort of an... I don’t know if you’d call it abductions or contact experience.

Rich: Well, I’ve not had what I would say are any conscious abduction or contact experiences. What I’ll say, however, is that I’ve sometimes wondered if that’s the case and I don’t have any proof one way or the other. The thing that I can tell you, is that I do private-types of investigations that I never write about. I can’t write about. Maybe the day will come when I really feel that I’m able to without damaging the individuals who are involved in these. But suffice to say, that some of the things that I’ve looked in to are really high strangeness, dealing with non-humans and a deep black human cabal as well, to wit, a lot of people have had abductions that I’m convinced are military and nonmilitary as well. There’s a lot going on that I’ve been looking into, and I’m trying to make sense out of it as much as anybody else [as well].

Bill: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

Kerry: And you’ve also got a background – I’m going to say this – in the occult, in the philosophy of the Illuminati. Like myself, you’ve studied this background, to some degree.

[cameraman]: [coughs]

Rich: Well, I’ve always been interested in consciousness, always. I’ve always been interested in the possibility of other dimensions of reality, other levels of consciousness. It’s not something I would ever consider myself expert at in any way. But it’s something... yeah, I’m interested in that, without a doubt.

Kerry: Right. So we’ve got a very open minded explorer here.

Bill: As it’s probably a part of the dataset that’s necessary in order to make sense of some of the information that comes your way, would you say?

Rich: Well, sure. Look, in my journey in this field, all right, I started out really in the mid-’90s, and I was coming fresh out of a very rigid academic environment. And I can tell you, [if] you’re in that world for ten years or more, which I was, you learn to think in a certain way. Now, there’s a lot of advantages to that, in terms of writing history. It’s very, very helpful to maintain a lot of intellectual discipline over your subject matter, so that you can present in a way that’s reliable and that can appeal to a lot of different people. On the other hand, that type of training doesn’t really make it easy to get into some of the more difficult-to-quantify elements of what we deal with in terms of UFOs and ETs and dimensions. All right?

So, what I’ve noticed in my own life over the last fifteen years of doing this, is we all are on our own journey. Now publicly, I always try to position my writing and myself in such a way that I can reach out and talk to mainstream people. If I were interviewed by someone on NBC, I feel like I could do it, and I could speak that language.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: Because after all, look, everyone doing this field, we’re part of a spectrum and we all have our own audience that we have to deal with, and everyone’s got something to contribute in that regard. And so, if I’m able to speak in some way positively to a mainstream or someone who is outside of our community, well, I think that’s a good thing. However, the longer you stay in this field, all right, the more obvious it’s that this is a messed-up strange field.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Bill: [quietly laughing]

Rich: It would be like, if I were to just stick to little nuts and bolts, citing reports, it would be like going to this beautiful beach with this huge ocean, and saying, ‘Yeah, I’m going to go feel the water for a while.’ And I go out and get my toes wet.

And then I walk back and say, ‘Okay, I’m done.’

I mean, without just going for a swim. At a certain point, you’ve got to swim in the water, and so I feel that I’ve done that. So, which is to say, yes, I’ve encountered a lot of things that are very, very bizarre, that have challenged my own conception of what is real. I’ll give you one example, and it’s something that’s second nature to probably you and to many people listening; it’s simply the mental connection between people and these other entities, these other things.

How many times is it that we come across a case where someone will say, ‘I had this urge at two o’clock in the morning to sit up in my bed and look out my window, and I did, and there was this orange glowing ball out there.’

So what does that tell us? Well, it tells me that there’s a telepathic connection between us and them, whatever ‘them’ happens to be. And this is a very important part of it. In other words, our consciousness. Our minds are a very important part of what is going on here with this phenomenon.

Bill: Might be the most important part.

Rich: It might be, yeah, yeah. Our minds, maybe our souls. There’s a lot of strange stuff going on here, and I happen to believe in this enigma called the ‘soul.’ I didn’t always, but I do. And I think that it exists. When this body of mine dies, when your body goes and decomposes, there’s going to be a part of you that remains, that nonlocal part, that the ancients call it the ‘soul.’ I think it exists, and I do believe – this is only my opinion, I don’t know this for sure – that these other beings that are here interacting with us on this plane of existence, they know about that, and it’s of interest to them.

Bill: I would say... I would say there’s overwhelming circumstantial evidence to suggest that that’s the accepted reality out there, and we’re just kind of waking up to this possibility and...

Rich: Yeah.

Bill: You feel that – this is the question, this statement is a question – that you feel that you’ve got to be kind of cautious about those suppositions, because you’ve kind of got, kind of, always one potential foot in the NBC interview camp...

Rich: [sighs]

Bill: ...and it’s like, you’ve got to be careful about what people hearing you say...

Rich: Right.

Bill: And you’ve got a reputation to kind of defend and [block].

Rich: Well, honestly, I’ve made so many statements at this point...

Kerry: [laughs]

Rich: ...that if they really wanted to trash me on NBC, they could do it. They’ll use this interview, among many others that I’ve given.

Bill: [laughing]

Rich: So, with that in mind, I’ll just... if I get that opportunity again, I’ll just have to deal with it the best way I can. That’s life.

Bill: Well, good for you. Yeah. I mean, for us, I guess, if I’d dare speak on your behalf, this is a self-evident given.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Bill: I’ve met so many people, myself included, who have vivid memories of past life recall. These aren’t inventions.

Rich: Mm-hm. Yeah, absolutely.

Bill: This is for real.

Rich: Yeah.

Bill: And it’s like it’s an axiom. It’s not a hypothesis. This is a....

Rich: And there’s been some very good work done on this, even in the much more quant.... There’s been a lot of quantified data that’s available on this, going back many, many decades.

Bill: Yeah.

Rich: So yeah, I’m absolutely persuaded of this, as well.

Bill: Yeah, sure.

Kerry: Did you ever meet John Mack?

Rich: Briefly on one occasion I did, yes. It was in 2002 at a function for, as a kickoff for Steven Spielberg’s [TV] mini-series Taken (2002), and that was in New York City for the SciFi Channel. But they only... I would have loved to have talked with John Mack more, because I’ve always had a high regard for him, but it was such a crowded function. I was a brand new guy on the scene. I’m not sure if he knew much about me at all. Someone shoved me in front of John Mack.

Kerry: [laughs]

Rich: There’s all of these other people around. And I chatted with him briefly, and we were very polite with each other. But I don’t think I made much of an impression one way or the other on John Mack. I would have liked to have had a chance to have talked with him. And, unfortunately, that never happened.

Kerry: Well, it just might interest you to know that the book he was working on before he died, had to do with consciousness.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: So that it all comes back to consciousness, ultimately, and I find that with researchers in this field, that the... you go out, you do all your... you kind of drill down in different areas...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: ...that interest you. Maybe even nuts and bolts even, but ultimately, it comes back to consciousness and to what the heart and the mind, and the spiritual aspect of what we’re really interacting with.

Rich: If I can just jump on top of what you just said here, I totally agree. I find that in my own life, every year or two, I’m reinventing my own paradigm of what is reality and I’m expanding my own consciousness. So you go into this field thinking reality is one thing, and then suddenly things don’t fit and you go [makes swishing tearing noise and gestures his hands in a tearing gesture] and there goes that layer of reality, and that might work for a little while. And then a year or two goes by, and you think, ‘No, this isn’t right.’ [makes swishing tearing noise] And we go deeper and deeper. I’m not done!

Kerry: Yeah.

Rich: I’m pushing 50 now and I’m still doing this. And I think that’s the best thing, the number one best thing about having gotten into a field like this, is that it has challenged my understanding of what reality is. Whereas, honestly, I think most people, they hit the age of, say 30, and they’re done.

Kerry: Yeah.

Rich: They spend the rest of their lives...

Bill: Yup.

Rich: ...filling in the blanks of what they think they know.

Kerry: Exactly.

Bill: Let me give you my own perspective on this, because, just over dinner I was talking to some people about collecting the jigsaw puzzle bits. Okay. It’s another metaphor.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Bill: And you’re trying to make it fit into the picture that you think is on the box. You haven’t actually seen the picture...

Rich: Sure.

Bill: ...but you’ve got an idea of what you think it probably looks like. And they don’t fit. You try and force it to fit, and if you’re honest, they won’t really fit. And then the picture is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Bill: And this picture is pretty darned big and you can’t throw out any of the pieces. And what kind of goes with that, is something to do with intellectual honesty of research, which is that you have to go where the data leads you.

Rich: Exactly.

Bill: And I understand, I really understand, as this kind of student of the human condition, like you’re, that some people don’t want to do that. It’s too uncomfortable; it’s too inconvenient; it’s too embarrassing, and sometimes it’s really unpleasant.

Rich: [clears throat and sighs]

Bill: And we found ourselves following this data trail to places... It’s like, ‘I don’t even like what I’m looking at here!’

Rich: Yeah.

Bill: I don’t want it to be true.

Kerry: Right. Yeah.

Rich: Yeah.

Bill: I don’t like this nasty icky stuff.

Rich: Yeah, yeah. [clears throat]

Bill: But, my God, maybe it’s real. We can’t discount it. And this is the kind of thing which you’re touching on and what you were saying just then, isn’t it?

Rich: Yeah. It’s... I find myself in a position of almost walking a tight rope, in the sense that, I’m trying to gather together evidence in a way to present it to a world in a way that’s understandable and comprehensible.

Bill: And acceptable.

Rich: And so, I’m always in a situation of what do I include and what do I leave out. I want to include everything that I think is valid. Certain things that I’m presented with, I don’t always think are always valid, but then later turn out to be maybe valid partially, and it’s hard always to know, at the time, what’s... what to work with and what to not and... It’s a messy business.

Kerry: Well, let me that your presentation yesterday, I guess it was, was excellent.

Rich: Mm-hm. Thanks.

Kerry: And I think that this talk that we’re having here can also touch on some of those subjects.

Rich: Sure.

Kerry: And I’d love to kind of go down some of those roads with you...

Rich: Absolutely. [clears throat]

Kerry: ...because, you’re dealing with Camelot and we are on the... in many ways, from many peoples’ point of view, the far reaches of the fringe, although we have a very large audience, surprisingly...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...even though we do go after the fringe.

Rich: That’s right, yeah.

Kerry: So we allow in, and especially me – even between the two of us, I think on some... in some ways – like, my window, my... whatever you want to call it, is op... it’s just really very, very open to all kinds of things. So, [if] somebody approaches me with a story, no matter how outlandish it is, I’m going to consider it. I’m going to listen.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: Now, that doesn’t mean we’re going publish it. But that’s where our discretion does come in. And I’m sure you have the same issue, where a story comes to you, a witness...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: Even, maybe more than one, talking about a phenomenon, like the Reptilians, for example.

Rich: Sure. [clear throat]

Kerry: And then you can either throw it out and just close your mind and say no, or in our world, what we agreed to do was to get the truth out, whatever the truth is.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: Now we have to investigate it; we have to entertain it; we have to allow for it in a very wide way. That means that... we’re talking about, as you said, other dimensions. We’re talking about time travel. We’re talking about stargates, the fact that we might have gone into Iraq because of the stargates. Okay? Because of the stargate there.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: That it wasn’t the oil; it was the stargate. That’s a very real, at least for me, that’s a really... very real hypothesis.

Rich: Okay.

Kerry: And it’s been substantiated by number of sources for me and for us. And there’s more. I mean, there’s a lot more. And so, I’m wondering because, as you go into the next volumes, you’re going to have to, in my view, this whole... It’s kind of like it starts out like this, rather narrow [gesturing with hands to form the shape of inverted pyramid], and even for you, as a historian, it actually widens, because human consciousness is becoming like that. In other words, the paradigm even for the sort of masses out has become wider as we’ve left the ‘50s, if you will. At least in terms... If you put things from that perspective.

Rich: Right. I understand where you’re coming from. Well, the way I would deal with any of these topics of the last 20 years, which is going to be the content of the final volume of the UFOs and the National Security State, my methodology is not going to change in the sense that I’ll work off of as reliable a body of evidence as I can, but that doesn’t mean that I’ll avoid certain topics just because they’re uncomfortable for me to deal with.

And so, I’m very interested in asking and dealing with some of these very controversial ideas, and to look at them fairly. And just because there’s not hard evidence to support it, doesn’t mean that I don’t think it may be true. In my last volume of history, I let a lot of stuff hang out. And I don’t feel the need. It’s not my job, as a historian, to take my gavel and pound the desk and say that’s true and that’s BS. I don’t have to do that every time. Sometimes I feel that I’m able to make a judgment one way or the other, and I may put that out, hopefully with a light touch. But a lot of times, I just don’t know. So the best I can do, sometimes, is simply present the best evidence on all sides that I can and just leave it. I can’t solve every single problem. And really, it’s beyond any one person’s ability to solve every one of these issues. It’s too much. It’s a mine field of 500 or a thousand or more hot topics that just don’t easily allow for a solution necessarily.

Kerry: Yeah, it’s like a hall of mirrors. One think that I really loved that you did in your presentation yesterday, was when you talked about the fact that there’s actually created, what you called a breakaway, almost a breakaway civilization...

Rich: Right. Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...within our culture we’ve got a breakaway, and I would call it almost a rogue culture.

Rich: Yeah. I think that’s one way to look at it. [clears throat]

Kerry: And in many ways. And we were talking to Bob Dean about this yesterday, and he’s actually like a leader in sort of our arena as a spokesperson in many ways, having come from... really, having a secret, above-top-secret clearance, and then moving into our sector of things. And so, he’s had real hands-on...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...involvement in that sort of breakaway civilization, if you will. But he’s come into what is the masses, and we were talking about the fact there’s actually a division now, between the two lives and you...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: I think you illustrated this wonderfully in your presentation.

Rich: Yeah, thanks. Well yeah, the basic idea is something that I’ve been working for the last couple of years. I introduced it in Volume II of my history and expanded on it in A.D. (Richard Dolan's book, After Disclosure). And the idea is really not a complicated one. [clears throat] It’s based on the idea that if you go back 60 plus years, we’ve recovered a piece of exotic technology from Roswell or some other crash retrieval, let’s just say. You have teams of genius-level scientists looking at this with a lot of money, lots of layers of secrecy, and a lot of time. And so, at a certain point, I think we can assume that they’re going to have one or more ‘eureka moments,’ where they understand this technology in ways that are going to make a difference. That might mean they can improve integrated circuits or develop fiber optics, but it also might allow them to have breakthroughs that are even more exotic and better than that. Let’s say anti-gravity or field propulsion technology.

Now if they make that kind of breakthrough, that might be something conceivably and probably that their superiors would say, ‘You’re not going to be sharing this with the rest of the world.’ That’s a little bit too important.

Something like anti-grav, for example, would take down the petroleum industry. Poof! There it goes. Because whatever these objects are using to go from point A to point B, it’s not petroleum. So, that by itself is a world changer, and it would be withheld of necessity, in the opinions of those people managing this secret. They’re not really out looking for the betterment of humanity as a whole. That’s a little bit too grand for their scheme. What they want to do is maintain their position, vis-à-vis other players. So, what would happen then? Let’s say you make a breakthrough in the 1960s on field propulsion, and you start to develop your own fleet of flying saucers. Well, the way science works, of course, is that it doesn’t just go at a linear thing [i.e. rate], it’s exponential. It builds on itself. [clears throat] I’m going to use a little bit of water here. I’m so sorry. [drinks some water]

Kerry: No, that’s fine. We can cut... put a cut right there.

Rich: It builds on itself. And so that it’s really not inconceivable, is it, to imagine one breakthrough leading to a new understanding of some fundamental scientific reality, which may lead to another breakthrough and on and on. So that this clandestine group suddenly starts leap-frogging, jumping, and now the next thing you know, is that they’re way ahead of the rest of us. Is that possible? Absolutely, it is.

I’ll give you one case in point. I had a conversation years ago with a former NSA scientist, who told me, point blank, that NSA computing capabilities in the mid-1960s had them running at a clock speed of about 650 mega Hertz. Now today that’s chump-change. That’s nothing. Everyone’s got laptops faster than that, but the key point is that the personal computing world didn’t reach that clock speed until around the year 2000. So that the NSA was 35 years ahead of the rest of the world. That’s a lot. So what would be the case...

Bill: And you ask, ‘Where are they now?’

Rich: You know it.

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: And in the case of a group that might even have something ahead of the NSA in terms of ET technology or capabilities, where would they be, in terms of AI, in terms of nanotech, in terms of biotech, in terms of the ability to go off-world, in terms of the ability to deal with dimensions. I think that this is all very significant.

What it means, is that they are, in a sense, a different civilization than we are. I mean what is a civilization? Well, it has to do with the level of technology, your cosmology, your understanding of your place in the universe, and all of those would be different with these guys. And so, I call them a ‘breakaway civilization.’ They’ve broken away from our own. That doesn’t mean, by the way, that they never interact with us. I mean, they’ve got families; they’ve got reunions, they do their thing, but they also live in this other world.

And my theory is simply that the farther ahead they get, very probably, the harder it’s going to be for them, ever, to try to bring the rest of us up to speed. I can see this being the case, even if you’ve got sympathetic insiders, and I believe there are. They might be asking themselves, ‘How the hell do you bring in 7 billion other people now, who live in this little cartoon version of reality, compared with what we’ve got? How do we bring them up to speed, even if we wanted to?’ That may not be easy to do.

Kerry: Yeah, and do we want to, that’s one of the bigger questions.

Rich: Right. Exactly.

Kerry: If you look at the Georgia Guidestones, and you read the Iron Mountain Report, it’s highly possible that they’d just rather kill a good portion of them and resume...

Rich: Yeah, let us die off in some way, yeah.

Kerry: In light of that, now that we’ve kind of painted that picture...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: ...I want to touch on the idea that we are actually a bridge, that the disclosure that we’re involved in...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...that we’re out disclosing, okay, sort of, in our way, through these kinds of conferences, through the books we write, through the things... the interviews we do in the case of Camelot...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...and so on. And we are actually, people come to us and say, ‘Oh, my God, you’ve changed our life.’

So, we are able to change their paradigm out there by bringing them along, and the people in the one-half of the civilization, the very accelerated half, that is basically the hidden portion...

Rich: Mm-hm. [clears throat]

Kerry: ...depends on us, in my view, as that bridge now, because they begin to realize that the gap is so wide, that it’s almost impossible for us to co-exist.

Bill: We’re a valuable asset. We’re a valuable asset and so are you.

Kerry: It’s becoming more and more [divided].

Rich: I think that’s a great point. That’s an excellent point.

Kerry: And so, instead of killing us off like they used to want to do, and they did. And you can... there’s documented evidence of that...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...within a parameter, and actually, I feel, like at this point, they actually don’t kill people so much, because they figure they’ve won the game and they’re in charge to such an extent that they no longer have to kill people to get their way; they may mind-control them, but they don’t kill them. So, ultimately, what they’re doing now, is using people, like us, to bridge that gap to begin to bring disclosure of what they’ve got going on. So they have leaks [and to us].

Rich: Well, [clears throat] along those lines...

Bill: Let me jump in as well.

Rich: Oh please, go right ahead.

Kerry: [coughs]

Rich: Yeah.

Bill: It... Okay, sorry. I’m going to infuriate you by... I’m not reinterpreting what you’re saying, but I’m putting in a metaphor.

Kerry: Go ahead. No that’s fine.

Bill: It’s a metaphor that I really, really love. And it’s a reaction; it’s a controlled reaction, like a nuclear reaction in a reactor.

Rich: [clears throat]

Bill: And to speed it up, you take out the control rods. And if it gets out of control, you don’t want it to be like Chernobyl. Then you have to put the control rods back in there again. And the control rods are leaning on people to say, ‘You know what? Don’t say that if I were you. You know, you might never see your dog again.’

Or, in the olden days, it might have been something much worse than that.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Bill: Now I think things are done in a more gentle way. It’s just a whisper in the ear, and we’ve had a few of those. It’s like, ‘You know what? You should really run that past me first. Read my lips.’ and all this kind of stuff.

But sometimes, they want the reaction to accelerate a little bit, and then they’ll... and then someone will have the go ahead, who you’ve called as an insider, to say more than you thought they were going to say.

Rich: Right.

Bill: And all of this is sanctioned. They could squash us all like bugs. And they could instantly stop anyone who’s talking to you off-record. And they don’t do that.

Rich: Excellent... yeah, excellent point. Look, I’ve many, many times wondered... I’ve had evidence in my own life of [clears throat] having been messed with on occasion. For several years, I was stopped at every single airport that I went to. My name was flagged. I was allowed to fly, but I was delayed every single time, 15, 20 minutes, I’d have to sit around while they would clear my name. I’d have luggage opened, sent to Dulles multiple times, opened up, rifled through. I’ve had the vans in front of my house. I’ve had all kinds of crazy stuff like that, but I’ve really never been threatened. And in all of that type of heavy-handed, almost Marx brother-type surveillance that I experienced, is gone now, as far as I can tell.

What has also happened, is that there have been a number of people that, I have to say, are very high-level, well-placed insiders, who have come to me. Some of these people I know and they’re very well known and famous. Others I have no way of confirming who they are. A few of these are... can only be described as very deep, very deep insiders, and some of those I can’t confirm them, but I’ve had an enormous amount of information from some of these people, and...

Bill: But it must be sanctioned, mustn’t it? Surely.

Rich: It... Well... I... The impression that I’ve got from some of these contacts has been, they do this on the sly. Now that’s the impression that they give to me, or they have given to me.

Kerry: Sure.

Rich: And by the way, I haven’t heard from this particular group in some months now, and I don’t really know what the deal is with them. There were a couple of people who would write to me... lots of information. Is it true, is it not true? Well... [sighs, pauses] hard to say. There are times when I’ve been inclined to think, yes, they’re telling me the truth. It’s also a possibility to wonder if you’ve been taken for a ride and so, I’ve got to be careful.

Kerry: Right.

Rich: The impression that I get, though, is that these are individuals within the deep, black, clandestine structure who have... who support what I do and have decided, on a limited basis, to give me a little bit of information about the nature of their world. That being said, what I’ll say, the scenario is, very possibly one in which... let’s call it ‘The Majestic Group’ (TMG), the secret keepers are, they’re [chuckles] not just 12 guys. It’s a large...

Kerry: Yeah. Mm-hm.

Rich: ...sprawling bureaucracy group that is international, operated not by USD funds at all. It’s all international money.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: Big time private money that goes in. They own all the goods. There’s also factions involved, as it has come down to me. Human factions and multiple alliances.

Kerry: That’s right.

Bill: Mm-hm. Yup.

Rich: All right? Of human and non-human groups and, who the hells knows, who’s got a score card here to sort all these guys out. I’m not sure that they do, the impression that I get. And also, the impression that I get is that... I call them ‘Majestic.’ I think the Majestic Group is actually scrambling to try and stay on top of this, to deal with one difficulty after another that is arising in this world, due to the intervention of forces that they really cannot control, not all of which are benevolent. This is the impression that I’m getting.

Kerry: Sure.

Rich: ...so that there’s a kind of war going on.

Kerry: When you say forces... Yes.

Rich: Forces, entities, groups.

Bill: Interests.

Kerry: Yes. Absolutely.

Rich: Not all of... They don’t even know... It’s possible they don’t even know that these are extraterrestrial. I think they’re dealing in some way with dimensional forces, dimensional groups. And again, look, this is just how it’s been presented to me, and I don’t know for sure that this is true. It’s just some possibility that I’m looking into, but if that scenario is as it appears to be, it’s a wild story. And it’s not hard to see why they would want to keep a lid on this in terms of letting the public out... Doesn’t know about it because it’s... It would be explosive! It would be absolutely explosive if it’s true.

Kerry: Yes, the real story, you know, because when people talk about disclosure, I don’t ... I think it’s all very nice and fine for people to talk about little grey aliens that go around abducting people and then the military has made deals with them and they’ve got some flying toss...

Rich: Sure. Right.

Kerry: ...saucer technology and that’s it. That’s the end of the story.

Rich: That’s simple, right? [laughs]

Kerry: And... Yeah. That could be...

Rich: Right. Exactly.

Kerry: That could be disclosure. That may be all they’re prepared to say. But actually, from what we’ve heard, the story is so much more complex than that.

Rich: Yeah, I think so too.

Bill: Mm-hm.

Kerry: And it does involve, from what we’ve heard, battles, in other words, going on between various groups, some of which are human, some of which are human and the others, some of which all look human but they may be from off-planet and so on.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: And, I mean, the mixture of groups is really complex. And...

Rich: [sighs] Right.

Bill: And there are also aspects where they may not have all the information themselves. They may have unanswered questions. They may not understand it. They may be freaked out. And one of the problems with the so-called presidential press conference where he spills the beans, is it’s pretty hard for the President or for a five-star military general to say, ‘Well, you know what? That’s a good question.’ and ‘Gee, we really don’t a answer to that.’

Rich: [sighs] I agree. One of the points that I’ve tried to make regarding disclosure is... First of all, look. I’m not – I am and am not a disclosure advocate. I mean, in a way, I am and in a way, I’m not. I know full well that disclosure is going to be a very messy and – as I’ve been lately saying – a very unsatisfying proposition. And it’s not going to be fun.

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: Having said that, I think, as I’ve often said, it’s a paradox. It’s impossible, but it’s inevitable.

Bill: Hmmh.

Rich: It’s impossible in the sense that, the people who’ve got this secret... I see no motivation at all, on their part, for giving it up. Why would they? (a) You’ve had this secret in your possession for a lifetime. That’s difficult to explain to the world right off the bat.

Then you’ve got the whole tech issue involved – what do you have? What toys do you have that the rest of us don’t have? There’s going to be a lot of public anger.

Then you’ve got the economic/financial picture in which you are replacing petroleum, because, look, after there is disclosure statement, it’s going to take all of five minutes for someone to put together the fact that these things don’t need petroleum. So, what are we going to move onto next? And there goes the petroleum industry...

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: ...just for starters! So, what’s going to happen? The order of the day, is going to have to be stalling for time. Has to be. And so, in other words, disclosure is not the end of the game here. Disclosure is the beginning.

Bill: Exactly.

Rich: It’s the opening shot in the next battle for truth.

Bill: Mm-hm.

Kerry: Yeah.

Rich: A President will... let’s say it’s the President, who’s going to say, ‘Yes. Apparently, there are others who are here and not all of these objects are ours.’ Well [chuckles], then what? How do you deal with abductions? That’s going to be really not fun to talk about. And, so the best that a President will be able to do, in those opening days and weeks, if he’s lucky, is to be able to say, ‘We’re working on it. We’re going to have as open a process as possible, and we’re going to make sure that people are safe and we’re going to make sure that we get the answers so that you can know.’ And then just stall.

Kerry: [chuckles]

Rich: But the real issue is going to be, then, there’s going to be lots of angry and inquisitive people and there’ll be a lot of researchers who have been digging into this issue. And people like us will have something to say about it and, guess what, a lot of people will be listening.

And so, the issues are going to get on the table really quickly.

Kerry: Sure.

Rich: And sorting it all out is going to be a massive battle royale, and we’ll also possibly be in a very unsatisfactory position of being able to know for sure that there are other beings that are here, but not being able to pull them and put them on a podium and subject them to questions...

Kerry: [chuckles]

Rich: ...in a Camelot interview.

Kerry: [chuckles]

Bill: Hmm!

Rich: Wouldn’t it be great, to have one of them on here. That may not be possible. And so, we’re not necessarily going to be in a position where we can satisfy all of our questions. And this could go on for years. It could go on for generations.

Kerry: Well, there’s also the idea that, if you think about it from the point of view of ‘them,’ whoever ‘they’ are and all the different aspects of who they are, you can imagine that it’s kind of like stars standing behind a stage and vying for who gets to go out on stage first, because....

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...if you think about it, why do the Andromedans want to let the Plejarans out on stage first? Maybe they get along and that’s okay, but I don’t think the greys are going to be so happy about that. And then, what about the Reptilians?

Rich: Right.

Kerry: And what if one of those groups wants to stay backstage and the other group wants people to know about them, because they actually have to consider that their... that group is a threat.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: And that’s where you get into this whole sort of craziness. And then, there is also the other aspect which is, that, from what I understand, various aspects, for example, of the military have been aligned to various different races already. So, there you already have a sort of battle going on behind the scenes for the group of Nordics, let’s say.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: They’re affiliated with the Air Force. Versus the Army for..

Rich: Right.

Kerry: I mean, I’m guessing here, who is aligned possibly with [a] certain group of greys, and then there’s supposedly another group of greys who are bigger and taller and may have, let’s see, humanity’s best interests more at heart, so to speak, than another group of greys, and so it goes.

Rich: So... Mm-hm.

Kerry: And this kind of discussion... I mean, it’s not like it’s not already been out there.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: And we do have movies about ETs and various kinds of ETs. We do have ‘V’ on the television right now.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: And, to me, this is one of the best scenarios in terms of the possible ways that this could actually fall out. Okay? Because this is where you get a group that seems so congenial, that they’re so, such good guys and wouldn’t that be the great way to keep the peace?

Rich: Right.

Kerry: And in ‘Childhood’s End’ by Arthur C. Clarke, which addressed all these issues from the point of view of a guy who, from Hoagland’s point of view, actually knew what was really going on.

Rich: I see, yeah. Well, what you’re also sug... bringing up, which is an important point, is how would a disclosure event affect these other beings? And another thing that comes to mind is simply, would there be contingency plans in place? They’re probably... They have to be, to deal with disclosure and would that mean a quick military-type action by one group against another? Is that a possibility? I mean, what... the impression I’ve sometimes gotten from various sources that I have talked to, is that there is possibly some kind of clandestine war going on. This is something that just recently John Alexander adamantly denied and which I disagree.

Kerry: [laughs] Right.

Rich: But so, if there is, then a disclosure would have a key effect on those relationships and, yeah, things could get really ugly really fast. The only reason it’s going to happen anyway, despite all of the difficulties... Look, it’s not hard to see why the ‘Powers That Be’ would say, ‘Whew! This is such a mess. Let’s just keep things nice and tight and quiet, the way they are.’ It’s not hard to see it.

The problem though, is that the greatest variable in this entire equation isn’t the secret keepers and it’s not these other beings. It’s us. We are the variable. We as a society, as a species, because look at us, man. It’s 2011. It’s not 1991 and it isn’t 1971. We are going sshhoonk [makes exponential curve gesture with right hand], like this.

Kerry: Right.

Rich: All right? And what are we going to look like in another 20 years, 40 years? Good lord, man! We’re going to have world in which AI is going to be ubiquitous and strong. Computing into... your personal may have an IQ of 500 or a 1000, for all we know. And it won’t need coffee to get it’s mojo going in the morning, and it won’t need sleep. It’ll be able to pull any bit of data off the Web, bam! [snaps fingers] like that.

We, ourselves, may have nanochips implanted to enable us to communicate with the Web. What are we going to be like? And then there’s biotech in general, genetic modification.

In that scenario, in that world, all right... Here’s the thing that’s become very obvious to me – these other beings... see, they’ve got to know this. They know we’re about to leap right into their world.

Kerry: Absolutely.

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: And so, that... they’ve got to be interested in us supremely, right now knowing this. And so, that we’re going to be in the position, within 20 years – I think it has to be the case – where we’re going to have this capability of detecting just exactly who they are. I almost can’t even begin to imagine how crazy the world of the 20 to 30 years is going to be with the reality of a non-human presence interacting with us, with a greater understanding of dimensionality than we do today, with greater capabilities in our own selves and with our tools, like computers, in understanding this. It’s going to be crazy.

Bill: Okay. Let me ask you the kind of question that I would have loved to have asked, if you were able to take questions after your presentation.

Rich: Hmm!

Bill: And I’m not a negative guy, and I’m not a devil’s advocate by natural persuasion, but some people watching this would want us to ask these questions. Okay. Is it possible that the level of complexity that we could be crashing into could be another whole level of deception? Like the kind of macro-scale version of the military saying, ‘You know what? Those Roswell... it was just, actually it was top secret crash dummies.’ that kind of thing. There are various ways that this could happen.

Rich: So, well, can you be more specific? So, like what kind of scenario are you referring to?

Bill: Yeah, yeah, sure. Okay, right.

Rich: [clears throat] [sighs]

Bill: One... Okay. If I was a Pentagon general with a really nasty, controlling, evil intention, I would think, ‘You know what? The best way to break this to the world is in a crisis footing, where people are so panicked and so freaked out, that they’re not going to ask the smart questions. They are going to be worried about their survival.’

Rich: Okay.

Bill: Hence you end up in a whole Project Blue Beam situation...

Rich: Right, I see.

Bill: ...where you’ve got a War of the Worlds situation where you’ve got these aliens coming down and shooting people up, whether it’s real or not, and suddenly, the reality is disclosed, because it’s all over the television screens or you’ve got the Independence Day stuff with the big ships, whether they’re real or not.

Rich: Right.

Bill: But no one’s asking these questions which, in peacetime, as it were, we have the liberty to ask, because people are thinking, ‘My God. We’re pleased we’ve got a strong military that’s able to save us against this stuff.’ No one’s asking the smart questions.

Rich: Well, look we live in a world of false flags. We all know about 9/11. We know about a bunch of other things. Remember the Anthrax scare? Gee, wasn’t that interesting?

Kerry: [chuckles]

Rich: We live in a world in which we are lied to and manipulated. And so, in terms of scaring the hell out of the public in order to create a global Fascist state, it’s something we have to be very vigilant about. I agree with this. But, but...

Bill: And it also solves the problem. It solves the disclosure problem, you see.

Rich: Well...

Kerry: Temporarily.

Bill: Sort of.

Rich: Well, it does and it doesn’t. I mean... In terms of Blue Beam, I just want to point out, I did some investigation of Blue Beam, as well. There was supposed to be a Blue Beam event, if you recall, on October 13th.

Bill: I know it’s nonsense [and yeah...]

Rich: Yeah, well, it was nonsense. And I said so, long before it happened.

Kerry: So did we.

Bill: Yup.

Rich: The, the... Good.

Kerry: [laughs]

Bill: [laughs]

Rich: The origin of the Blue Beam theory was from a general guy called Serge Monast and... I looked into his background and the fact was, it was just a load of nonsense, in my opinion. He was...

Bill: But the theory, as a tactical device to use, it makes strategic military sense that some people might do this. Surely.

Rich: The question is, getting the details right. So, you’re going to have to convince the world that there’s a hostile alien threat and they’re about to get us. So, you’re going to have to come up with, presumably, documents. You’re going to have to come up with ETs. See, part of the problem is going to be convincing the scientific community about this. All right? And no matter how you put out the disclosure, there’s going to be an issue of persuading, say, the National Academy of Sciences, which is a very, very... to call them skeptical on UFOs is a gross understatement. So...

Kerry: But putting the ships above all the major cities around the world would kind of close that statement...

Rich: So, which ships...

Kerry: ...unless they’re holograms that are so precise.

Bill: Mmh. But you wouldn’t even... But you wouldn’t even have to...

Kerry: But see, they have ships to make... Wait, wait, wait.

Rich: But would persuasive holograms really do the job, ultimately?

Bill: No. You wouldn’t leave...

Kerry: We believe they have the craft, okay. So, we know they have supraluminal travel now.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: We know they’ve got black triangles. We know that some of those UFOs that people are seeing are military.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: They’re ours. Okay, whatever ours is.

Rich: Right, right.

Kerry: And so, look, they don’t even need to have all holograms. They can do a combination of. And the thing is, that I agree with you in the sense that I’ve always said this. In fact, if they do a Project Blue Beam-type invasion scenario with the craft that they have and some holograms and so on and so forth...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...that ultimately, the real guys are going to have a say in that scenario, because they’re going to say, ‘Well, wait a minute, dudes, we are real...’

Rich: Exactly.

Kerry: And we’re going to come down and actually have an counter... counter message.

Rich: All of this is predicated... It’s all predicated on the fact that these other beings are not going to do a thing about it.

Kerry: Right.

Rich: It seems to me. And that’s taking a mighty big risk. [clears throat]

Kerry: Because they’re so involved right now, I mean, if we... We’re in this sector where we’re getting disclosure and we’re getting witnesses that are having contact constantly, not only people like us, but possibly yourself. But certainly, many, many people that attend these conferences and many that don’t. People that write to us every day, every single day. I get emails.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: All the stories. You wouldn’t believe it. It’s amazing. I had one woman just come up to me yesterday and say, from Puerto Rico, and say she has a crystal child and that we saved her life because of an interview we did, because her child was able to see, documented on the screen with us, what he was seeing in his real life and he was having trouble living in that sort of mainstream paradigm in which the world we talk about doesn’t exist.

Rich: Okay.

Kerry: So, I mean, that’s what we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with ETs that are actually... they are involved, not only with our military, but with us. The way they’re involved with us...

Rich: Right, yes. Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...in some cases, is much more secretive in many ways, than even what we understand from the military, because we hear they’re... Dan Burisch says that he is working side-by-side with them. And we’ve got Henry Deacon who said the same thing. We’ve got Bob Dean saying they’re walking the halls of the Pentagon.

Bill: The easiest... the easiest way for the ETs to influence our society, whatever their intentions are, however many different groups are involved, is to incarnate as us and the play the game from within.

Rich: I think that’s... actually, I believe that’s what has been happening.

Kerry: Well, that is happening as well.

Rich: If any of us were non-human looking ETs and we were interested in this society down here and we would want to influence it, well, you’d either want to put your people, get some of those people to work for you, or you would create your own, or you would somehow work to infiltrate that society and manage it, so that when it gets to a point where it might be a real pain in the neck for you to deal with, you’re in a position where you’ve got influence. You’ve got control over it.

Kerry: You’ve got your own team on the ground.

Rich: Right, exactly.

Bill: You got a whole bunch of sleepers. We’re talking...

Rich: And I think that this is absolutely a real possibility.

Kerry: Absolutely.

Rich: Figuring it all out is going to be a very difficult situation. The one thing I’ve tried to do in writing this book, by the way, is to show, yes, there’s the possibility of these very, very bad scenarios taking place. I try not to avoid any of that. But I wanted to... See, I wanted to show that it is possible to see that there is a better way here, that there is a better possibility for our species and our society.

So, in other words, let’s look at the political upshot of a disclosure process. It could be a Fascist police state. Right now, there’s a battle in the world about that going on. We all know it. And that battle is going to amplify, I think, after disclosure, but it doesn’t have to go all one way. And we’re seeing this now in the actions of the Arab people in the Middle East. We can see that change happens fast [snaps fingers].

Bill: Mm-hm.

Rich: And that there is such a thing, still, as ‘people power’ in this world.

Bill: Mmh.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: It can be disabled. Right now, in Egypt, the army’s just batting down the protesters, so it’s not clear where all this is going to go.

Kerry: Right.

Rich: But, that revolution’s not done.

Kerry: Oh. Absolutely.

Rich: So, in a post-disclosure world, what are going to be the issues? Let’s say you’re the President. Is it possible that that person, despite the fact that he was put into power by the Bilderberg elite groups, Illuminati. Okay? ‘Pshoo.’ Put right into the White House. Is it possible that that individual might have a moment where he sits down, or she sits down, and decides we have a possibility here for something really positive in which he or she may want to take on (a) the black-budget, clandestine breakaway group that has managed this. There will certainly be political pressure to do so, I think. It seems to me that people are very instantly going to be wanting to know about how you’ve kept this secret in place.

The structure of secrecy, unless the Fascist state comes down ‘boom,’ like one heavy curtain, there’s going to be a lot of discussion about this structure of secrecy and there’s going to be a lot of angry people.

Kerry: That’s right.

Rich: And a president or any leader is going to have to deal with that. And unless he starts shooting everyone all at once, there’s going to have to be political... a way to deal with this politically, and so there will be, very possibly, some serious, deep investigations that are held publicly and a President will have a chance, I think, to take a very courageous decision and to gain control over, in the Untied States, of the US system of government, away from these black-budget, clandestine groups and to find out where they are, where the money is, what the programs are, at the same time, of fighting another battle. And this other battle will be to coordinate internationally, globally – I would like to see – an open process of cooperation to enable the nations of the world to transition (a) peacefully to a new form of energy, a post-petroleum world and then (b) to find a way to collaborate to meet the challenge posed by these other beings, whether positive or negative in intention. I realize [chuckles] that’s asking a lot.

Kerry: [chuckles]

Rich: I realize that that’s so idealistic that maybe it borders on Utopian. Maybe that’s what it is.

Bill: And it’s assuming that the President makes the calls.

Rich: It is indeed assuming that. The President... there’s no reason to say that a President is going to do that.

Kerry: Well...

Rich: The President could just as easily follow his corporate international masters and say, ‘This is not how it’s going to go down.’ But – the last thing I want to say though – is that the voice of the people on planet Earth may not be so easily amenable. All right?

Bill: Mmh.

Kerry: Sure.

Rich: And we’re seeing this now in parts of the world today and it can very well be the case, post-disclosure.

Bill: I support that.

Kerry: Well, I think you also have to keep in mind, though, that disclosure, this thing we call ‘disclosure,’ which is happening, as Bob Dean says, we are actually... have been in a roll-out for the last 20 years, if you will, of disclosure in various ways – movies, films, books...

Rich: Okay.

Kerry: ...what we are doing. Okay? And you can argue for that. And it’s actually...

Rich: I have a slightly different take on that, but go on.

Kerry: Okay, yes. But it is a roll-out of a sort. And so, at that point, you can really say that you’re also... we’re not just a closed system, right now, Earth, with a few different visitors, so to speak, putting, dipping their hands into the pot here. We are actually entering, as a solar system, a galactic community, but also, we have, if you listen to Paul LaViolette, and you look at what’s happening in terms of the dynamics with the changes on the Sun and the fact that there’s a superwave of energy coming towards us, that one of our witnesses, Jake Simpson, said that, using supraluminal travel, they sent craft out beyond our solar system and actually were able to see this wave coming toward us. Okay?

Rich: All right.

Kerry: And this was several years ago. So, at this point, you could assume that it’s almost here. The changes on all our planets in our solar system are well-documented at this point by Hoagland and Wilcock and other people, scientifically. So, when you’re looking at those changes...

Rich: Well, let me just say, I’m not... It’s all in the data, all right...

Kerry: Sure.

Rich: ...and if the data is scientifically measurable and confirmed, then that’s one thing.

Kerry: Absolutely. So, what you have is a possibility of a new body coming into the solar system at the same time as all of these other things. So, here on Earth, you’ve got these tumultuous, almost on the verge of revolution, what I call a ‘revolution in consciousness’ happening among the masses, simultaneous with all these facilitating things, going on to some degree, working for and against Earth changes, things that are being done on purpose, whether war is being conducted by our military, using HAARP and so on. There’s lots of evidence of that.

RC: Mm-hm.

Kerry: And, so, that scenario is not... it’s not simple in terms of just, well, you have a President sitting here looking at the playing field and saying ‘Well, wait. Stop there.’ and ‘Let’s talk about this.’ Actually, it might not be that easily delineated. And what we may be looking at, also, because, in terms of the power structure, it’s not the President, obviously, and it’s groups like, possibly, Scion, which is MJ12’s new name for themselves, supposedly, and then City of London, which is maybe even above that, and aspects of that. And then there’s the Anunnaki card, if you want to pull that forward, which says that there are Anunnaki that are operational here on the planet at this time and that they are still in control and that their ...

Rich: I hear, I hear your point.

Kerry: Their reign may be... it may be their reign that’s being challenged and not President Obama or...

Rich: [sighs] I’ll take the point, obviously, that there are entities beyond that, but the off...

Kerry: Okay.

[cameraman]: ...switch these tapes...

**********

Rich: [sighs] Well, I take your point with everything that you’ve just said about powers behind the throne, so to speak, but I will still maintain that within the office of the US presidency, there are still legal powers that this individual has, that would enable him to make a difference. All right?

Kerry: Sure.

Rich: Officially speaking, in our world, the office of the President has substantial power. The fact is, we all know that it’s been mitigated by all other kinds of factors around it. That doesn’t mean that such power can’t be reclaimed. And this is the thing that I would like to see in a after-disclosure world. I’m not saying it’s going to happen.

Bill: The last person who tried to do that might have been Kennedy.

Rich: I think so.

Kerry: I would agree completely.

Rich: I think we can all agree that John F. Kennedy was...

Kerry: Yes.

Rich: ...was taken out for that reason, that he was a real problem to those people. But it doesn’t that a future leader won’t have a moment of courage...

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: ...and a moment of insight and make a decision to say, ‘Let’s do this the right way. Let’s do this for the betterment of the human species.’ Why should we ever rule that out, especially if there’s a large global movement among the people to do that.

Bill: Yup.

Kerry: I think what we’re not talking about here is the White Hats, because I think what would facilitate such a move on the part of a President or even a small group within our military-industrial complex, if you will.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: There are white hats.

Rich: Absolutely, absolutely.

Kerry: And I am in touch with some of these people at this time.

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Kerry: And they are very concerned to keep the United States operational, which is something that, from what the information we have, is that the... sort of the Rothschild faction would love to see taken down, such that it would be... fall under the purview of their overlook and basically become part of the New World Order...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ... as a one-world government, right? So you can’t have the United States with all its powers sort of sitting out here like a... on its own, running things, or attempting to still run things around the world, when in fact it needs to be part of a team. Right?

Rich: Well, I think to a large extent, the US has been brought into that. You would...

Kerry: But the White Hats do indicate that they still have some worth fighting for.

Rich: Yeah, sure, sure.

Kerry: That’s not done. So, I’m just saying that that’s the group that would support what you’re saying –

Rich: Yeah, I think so. It’s...

Kerry: ...our President acting in a certain way, because he’s not going to do it by himself. He’s got to have somebody behind him.

Rich: The fact is, as I see it, and I... maybe, as you guys also see it, is that there’s two sides to this battle... there’s many sides [chuckles] to this battle, but there are... it’s not all... the power isn’t always all on the other side of the fence.

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: That we... those of us fighting for the right, the right fight here, have some resources too, and we have to remember that being hopeless is certainly not a good state of mind, and it’s also not accurate.

Bill: This is what we say...

Kerry: I agree. Absolutely.

Bill: ...every time we talk to Jordan Maxwell, who – bless his... bless his socks – has had a tough time, and every now and then, he says, ‘You know what? It’s all hopeless.’ And I say, ‘No, it’s not all hopeless. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be able to be talking like this.’ [Look a bit.]

Rich: Look. I mean, the human species has gone through a lot of ups and downs. A lot of downs. We’ve had all kinds of crises throughout our history – famine, debts, injustice, crashing down of empires, barbarian invasions and all of this. All right? And we somehow managed to keep going. I think that we’re not going to go winking out after disclosure. We’re going to continue to live, and if it even takes centuries for us to regroup, we’ll do it. I don’t think we’re just going to go away.

We’re going to be very different in the future. We’re probably going to be unrecognizable to how we are now, in the future, just as we today are unrecognizable to, say, the era of Thomas Jefferson. Could you imagine? And I think the difference will be even be greater in the future. So... What we are, you mentioned us as a ‘bridge,’ Kerry.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: We’re a bridge in this world between the elites and the general public. But we’re also a bridge to the future...

Kerry: Yes.

Rich: ...where we are right now. We’re at a point between the old humanity, the old civilization, and something that’s coming ahead. And one of the important things that that world of the future is going to have, is an open knowledge that there are other intelligences working this world...

Bill: Mm-hm.

Rich: ...for good or for ill.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: And we’re going to have to deal with that in some way.

Kerry: Yes.

Rich: And our... the subsequent generations are going to grow up with that realization. And I guarantee you, they’re going to look at this problem very differently, I’m sure, than how we’re looking at it right now.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Bill: Do you feel that your personal role is to facilitate and optimize that transition, that inevitable process? Is that what you’re doing?

Rich: Well, [sighs] yeah, I’ve wondered about this. I think that’s a nice way to put it. More simply put, I think that my role is simply to learn and communicate, as responsibly as I can. I learn what I can learn. I try to provide as rational a voice on this process as I’m able to do, for better or for worse.

Bill: But you’re being more than just an academic historian, aren’t you?

Rich: I ceased being an academician any years ago.

Bill: [laughs softly]

Rich: I carry that training with me, but I’m an independent scholar. I guess it’s probably the best way to look at it.

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: And... yeah, look. I agree. I think that what I would like to be, in my heart of hearts, is someone who can really help and make this a better world and not a worse world, and to transition us to, as good a place as we can be in the future.

Bill: One of the team of midwives of the birth of a new world.

Rich: I like the way that sounds. Yeah.

Kerry: Yeah. Absolutely. I think there’s a team of us, if you will.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: And I think there’s also the potential for the positive view, as you’re talking about it, of the future, that involves this revolution in consciousness that is happening around the planet...

Rich: [sniffs] Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...and I think that in spite of how it’s being used and how it will continue to be used, this wave that’s hitting the Middle East and various countries... that...

Rich: [burps] [sighs]

Kerry: ...having traveled there, having even been there recently and been in communication with the locals...

Rich: Uh-huh. Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...I can tell you that, on the ground, this is really where the hearts and minds of people are... people is, around the world. This is not just a CIA-motivated coup-type thing going on.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: This is real.

Bill: This is real.

Rich: Yeah.

Kerry: And, it’s as real...

Rich: It sure seems like that to me.

Bill: That’s right.

Rich: Absolutely.

Kerry: ...in the streets of Egypt as it is in Jordan and so on. And we travel constantly, as you do often.

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: And I have to say that that’s for sure.

Rich: Yeah.

Kerry: Now, at the same time, there will be an effort to twist some of these things around, just as there has been with the Wikileaks, for example, saying he’s on the payroll of this one or that one and so on, so forth.

Rich: Oh, yeah! Yeah, yeah. Right.

Kerry: But the information comes out.

Rich: Exactly.

Kerry: Bottom line – the truth is coming out, slowly but surely, and that’s really the wave that we’re all behind, in my view. And I want to say that, at some point – and it may be happening now – I’m beginning to think that the... call them the ‘power elite,’ call them... whoever they are, are beginning to turn to us to begin to be the, sort of, not only the bridge, but also the communicators between them and the masses. And that...

Bill: You mean the ‘us’, the ‘us all’?

Kerry: Yeah, but...

Bill: Is this...? Mmh.

Kerry: ...what I mean is, is that ‘us’ in the sense of... I don’t mean ‘us’ Camelot.

Bill: The alternative media.

Kerry: I mean ‘us’ in terms... yes.

Bill: Mmh.

Kerry: In terms of the ones that have been willing to go out on a limb early on... sort of, being at the avant garde, being at the forefront of some of the changes and... and the willingness to entertain that.

Rich: Well...

Kerry: At the same time, we can actually provide a... I think that there’s a dialogue that can start to happen, if you will.

Rich: Well, there’s another way to look at this, because... I... speaking totally for myself, I can tell you, no one ever encouraged me to go, to take this path that I’ve taken. This is something I’ve done on my own. I’ve never gotten encouragement from the Rockefeller or Rothschild clique.

Kerry: [laughs] No, I know!

Rich: Just hasn’t happened.

Kerry: Yeah.

Rich: It’s possible to say that they’ve suffered this existence and they’ve allowed me to do it. Okay. But what I think is actually happening – and this gets me back to a point. You mentioned Bob Dean earlier, and I love and respect Bob. I think the world of him. But it’s a very commonly held opinion that Bob shares and I’m not sure I agree with, which is that this elite is promoting a kind of openness to this reality through popular culture and popular media. I’m not discounting it...

Bill: Hmm!

Rich: ...but what I actually see is, this change is coming from the bottom up, and that those people who are involved in media are increasingly seeing that this is what people are interested in, and they’re responding to that. That’s what I think is actually happening. And again, let’s take a look at Wikileaks as a phenomenon. Wikileaks is possible because of the age of the internet. In the same way, this, these radical changes we’re seeing... almost every single thing that we’re seeing, honestly, in my view, is because of the existence of the internet. What we’ve experienced in the way of our ability to communicate... it’s exponentially greater than anything possible before 1990. And that is what is driving this change in consciousness. Suddenly, we’re all able to talk to each other...

Kerry: That’s right.

Rich: ...around the world. And that’s driving the change. And the guys at the top, I think, have been struggling, in a way, to maintain control over the situation. And I think they continue to try to do so. Some of them may have decided that, for people like ourselves who are trying to get the proper word out, they may be thinking, ‘Yeah, it’s possible that we’ll let them do their thing, because, ultimately, it’s necessary.’ But I... [chuckles] I can you from my part, I’ve never gotten any active encouragement or money which would...

Kerry: No. I actually wasn’t suggesting that.

Rich: Okay? For anything like that. Yeah.

Kerry: But I understand where you’re coming from.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: We’ve actually had our lives threatened. So, anything but encouragement...

Rich: Yes. That’s right. Exactly.

Kerry: ...at least from our point of view. But what I’m saying here is that, I think... what I sense is, the tide is going to turn in that regard. And also, what has happened with the media, for example, with Spielberg and so on – there is evidence that these people have been approached by people in power to steer their message, to encourage them along certain lines where they wanted it to go. And I’m talking major mainstream media. They’re not encouraging us.

Rich: Okay. In Spielberg’s case... I mean, I’ve wondered about this. And my question would simply be, ‘What’s this man’s message?’ If you look at the movies and projects he’s done, he’s all over the map. He’s had E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982). He’s had Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) – happy positive ET message. He’s had [the TV mini-series] Taken (2002) – nasty. He’s had War of the Worlds (2005) – that’s even nastier.

Kerry: That’s right.

Rich: So, if there’s a message that this guy’s supposed to be putting out, what is that message? All right? Other than say that there’s ETs here. Big deal. All right?

Kerry: But that may be part of it. I mean, you know that... I mean, look. They do nothing but...

Rich: Isn’t it more...? Isn’t it possible, though...?

Kerry: ...with something positive with something negative. It’s basically how they manage the message.

Rich: Isn’t it just as possible, though, Kerry...?

Kerry: They want to keep the confusion.

Rich: Isn’t is just as possible, that Spielberg is a guy who’s genuinely interested in this topic, and is exploring different facets of it, as any intelligent person might do, over the course of 30 years? I’m not saying he’s not got no relationships here. But, when you look at Hollywood... Let’s look at something going back in history, like the Robertson Panel of 1953. And this is a CIA panel. And it was very, very clear, among those guys, that they were going to work with Hollywood, among other agencies, to guide public opinion on UFOs, but to what purpose? To debunk and discredit it.

Kerry: Right. Right.

Rich: That’s what they were going to do. To disable this whole topic. And there is evidence that the Robertson Panel was, in effect, through the ‘50s and ‘60s, very possibly beyond... So, what the suggestion that you might be saying now, is that that’s changed in order to get a different message out, which is to acculturate the public in the reality of ET. I guess it’s possible. But I’m not seeing a lot of hard evidence for it.

Kerry: Okay. Well, I think the hard evidence is everywhere. I mean, I think every movie you see... And I’m a sort of a rabid sci fi fan, so I see it everywhere. The messages are there.

Rich: Yeah, but isn’t it just as likely the possibility that they’re responding to obvious public interest in this topic?

Bill: Hmmh. [Both...]

Kerry: But it’s both, don’t you see? It’s both.

Rich: Yeah.

Bill: Yes. [It’s...]

Kerry: In other words, the people have... It’s the same thing that’s happening in Egypt with the revolution.

Bill: It’s both from the top down and from the bottom up.

Rich: Yeah. Yeah.

Kerry: The place was like a tinderbox. People wanted freedom.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: That’s there. That’s real. It’s the same thing with the understanding of that... these people that are writing screen plays that are publi... making movies...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: They have a passion for the subject.

Rich: Absolutely.

Bill: Mmh.

Kerry: Okay? It’s a real passion. Okay? But you can’t discount the fact that the Powers That Be, at this... mind control is a huge portion of what’s going on now, with regard to the powers that they have.

Rich: Well, yeah. Actually, I’m being... I mean, I shouldn’t really be arguing it this strongly, because I do agree that if you have the annual Bilderberg meetings, obviously, one of the things they’re going to want to do...

Kerry: [chuckles]

Rich: ...is to ask, ‘How do we manage public opinion here and there and there and there?’

Bill: Mm-hm.

Rich: And so, they’re going to have thoughts about doing this.

Kerry: They want to steer it.

Rich: They’ll want to.

Kerry: Now, how good at they are at steering is another matter. And I would submit...

Rich: Yeah. Very good point.

Kerry: ...that the internet has allowed them not to steer it with the control that they wish to have.

Rich: Absolutely.

Kerry: In other words, I agree with you completely there.

Rich: Yeah.

Kerry: I think the internet has allowed them to surveil us completely.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: But at the same time, it’s given us incredible power, because we are, as you say, able to talk to one another across the world...

Rich: Absolutely. [sighs]

Kerry: ...and get information everywhere.

Rich: Exactly.

Kerry: And the power behind information, and in essence, truth, when it is contained in information, is like a spark that goes out and spreads around the globe.

Rich: Yeah. Yeah.

Kerry: And basically becomes a fire in the hearts of the people. Okay? To get poetic about it.

Rich: I love that phrase, yeah.

Kerry: [chuckles] So, what I would say is, yes. I think the future the wide open. I think the Powers That Be, regardless of their ET connections, even...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Kerry: ...are completely aware that they are losing their grip as we speak, and it’s like a cauldron that’s beginning to boil over. And I think that they’re grasping at straws to try to pull it back in, but I don’t think they’re ever going to be able to do that. And that’s what we’re banking on, because...

Rich: Yeah.

Kerry: ...that’s what we do.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: We’re trying to wake people up. And it’s just the act of waking up that makes every human being able to connect with that whole world.

Rich: Yes. And you just made me able to remember what I wanted to say. So, thank you.

Kerry: [chuckles]

Rich: And it’s the whole concept of consciousness. And incidentally, when I spoke at Awake and Aware Conference in ‘09, I absolutely loved the title of that. And I’ve always appreciated it... your tagline in your emails, ‘Awaken the Dreamer.’ All right?

Kerry: Uh-huh.

Rich: Because I also feel that most of us, to varying degrees, go through our lives kind of a sleep-walking our way through. And our ongoing struggle is to wake up, to become conscious of everything that’s going on around us and inside us. When I look at the world around me – not simply other researchers or interested parties in this topic, who are much more awake than the typical person – but there’s a lot of people who aren’t awake. And I ask myself, ‘What’s going to get our whole species awake?’ Is it our mainstream media? No. Is it our political system? Not really. Is it our educational system? Doubt it. And so, there’s really no structures in place, really, that are going to get us there. But there’s a couple of things that can do it. The shock of learning that there are other beings interacting with us is going to spark six, seven billion people to sit and look and ask themselves a simple question – ‘Have I been wasting my whole life?’

Kerry: [laughs]

Rich: Because there’s going to be...

Kerry: Absolutely.

Rich: ...evident... strongly obvious that there are other beings operating at a different level of consciousness than we are. And people are going to realize ‘Holy crap. I’ve got to get my... I’ve got the opportunity to rethink my whole world view, my whole life.’ And that is an opportunity for humanity to really move to a much, a truly higher level of consciousness, to understand what it is we are and our place in the universe. And that can ultimately be the thing we absolutely need.

Kerry: Absolutely. I think that also, this... the possibility of free energy that opens up, the fact that people will not be...

Rich: Well, that’s an absolutely critically important thing.

Kerry: ...living from hand... on a survival level.

Bill: Hmmh.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: That will change everything. Because if you don’t have to starve...

Rich: Totally agree.

Kerry: ...and you don’t have to work...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: ...eight hours a day to support yourself, to pay your bills, etc. etc.

Rich: Right.

Kerry: If there’s another kind of organization of society, that can happen...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: ...then it’s wide open.

Rich: Exactly. The whole paradigm of previous human existence now becomes changed. The reasons for just about every war that I can think of, in human history, has to do, in some fundamental way, with control over resources, over wealth coming from the Earth. And if that really becomes moot, in a situation [of] free, cheap, readily-available energy, where goes war? I mean, this... maybe this is pie in the sky, but I think, in a lot of ways, it could be, that after a number of decades, we might just find that the motivations that we had for warfare in the past really aren’t there. Now, of course, in the meantime, we’ll have the very practical issue of having global military bodies around the world and what do you do with them, is going to be an issue.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: Do you just stand them down or are they to become police forces involved in a global police state?

Kerry: [coughs]

Bill: Well, they’re very powerful and effective...

Kerry: [coughs] Sorry.

Bill: Mm-hm.

Rich: Mmh.

Bill: They’re very powerful and effective logistical machines for any given purpose. It doesn’t have to be offensive [and military].

Rich: No. Absolutely, absolutely. So, again, it’s a wide-open game and I don’t know any more than the next guy how it’s all going to turn out. It could be a wonderful situation for humanity and the cosmos in general, or it could be something dark. But even if it’s something very dark, I’m skeptical of saying that it will be dark forever. Nothing lasts forever. Change is something that always happens, and it seems to me that, even if it’s a thousand years, well, then it’s a thousand years, but something may change after that. I’m very much not inclined to think that even the worst outcome, in the short term, is necessarily going to hold forever.

Bill: Here’s a question to challenge you, then. If you let go of the data that you’ve got...

Rich: Mm-hm.

Bill: ...and I can only imagine the piles and gigabytes of data that you’ve collected in the last few years, what is your intuition tell you we have in front of us over the next few years?

Rich: We got a really nasty situation ahead of us, to be honest with you. I think that we’ve got... [sighs] I think that humanity, right now, is the most interesting event in this portion of the galaxy. We are about to truly wake up. We’re truly about to jump into the world of these other entities. They won’t be able to stop it. And so, anyone who’s anybody is here right now looking at us and investigating our world. And, very likely, positioning themselves to get the best gain out of it. I’m not of the opinion that all of these other beings, that can go across dimensions and stars, are all necessarily spiritually-evolved.

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: And I think some of them are, actually, and I think some don’t seem to be. So, you’ve got a plethora of interests out there. And so, what we’re looking at is, we’re going to get a baptism by fire in the next lifetime. Us, and the next several generations after us, are going to have to deal with a lot of difficulty. We also have the possibility of some severe infrastructure interruptions, it seems to me. I mean, I was just reading about the airport in Tripoli right now, which is a sea of humanity with no sanitation and no food. And they’re all just trying to get out of the country. Imagine that on a large scale, if we have big problems in terms of mass panic and difficulties associated with transitioning to new forms of energy and financial problems and collapses and wars that may break out in the short term. It could be really bad. But if you take the long view, I think that I’m optimistic about our civilization and our species, to the extent that I think that we’ll continue to exist and we’ll thrive and we’ll become something different, very different, and I’m hoping, better than what we are, even now.

Kerry: I think we’re going to meet our multi-dimensional selves in the flesh and in other forms and fashions, and I think that, ultimately, that we’re going to be better for it. And I think that this is the possibility that we’re embracing. It’s not just a nice phrase...

Rich: Right.

Kerry: ...but actually the reality starting to unfloat, unfold like a sort of flower, if you will.

Rich: Yeah. And another way to look at that – I agree with you – is that... when you look back on your own life and I look at my life, it’s... there’s an irony involved. No one ever wants to fail. No one ever wants to have life kick them in the teeth. But the fact is, when you look over the difficulties of your life, you realize that those are the things that made you what you are.

Bill: Mmh.

Rich: And conversely, it’s all the people who’ve had everything handed to them, that I have no use for these people.

Kerry: [chuckles]

Rich: [chuckles] They are, those... shallow, weak, self-centered individuals. And when something bad comes their way, they fall apart.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: So really, what we... the irony is, you can’t always get you want, but sometimes you get what you need.

Bill: Mm-hm.

Rich: And we need difficulties. We really do.

Kerry: Mm-hm.

Rich: And not to make it into some romanticized thing, but the fact is that, it’s only through overcoming challenges thrown our way, that we actually become something better than what we were.

Bill: Yes. As individuals and as a civilization.

Rich: Yeah. I think so.

Bill: Yes.

Kerry: Well, I think this is a great place to end. And I want to thank you, Rich Dolan.

Rich: Oh, Kerry. It was a pleasure.

Kerry: It’s... Yeah, absolutely a pleasure for both of us.

Rich: Really was. Bill.

Bill: That was fun. A long time coming and it’s worth it.

Rich: Loved it. Good.

Bill: Yeah.

Kerry: Thank you.

Bill: Wonderful. 

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Bill Ryan bill@projectavalon.net