Wade Frazier:

Interview transcript

This page is a reformatted version of the original Project Camelot publication.

Wade Frazier: A Healed Planet,
and the role of Free Energy
With Dr Brian O'Leary

March 2009

Click here for the audio interview

Start of interview

Bill Ryan (BR):  This is Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot. It’s Friday the 27th of March, 2009, different time zones in different parts of the world. I’m in Europe. Kerry is in Los Angeles. Brian is in Ecuador. Wade, you’re in Seattle? Is that right?

Wade Frazier (WF): Yes.

BR:  We’re delighted, Wade, to be talking with you. Wade Frazier, like Brian O’Leary, who we had the great pleasure of meeting and talking with at length in Ecuador back in January, is a veteran free-energy activist.

Brian O’Leary was in the astronaut program, and is himself a veteran free-energy activist. He’s done a lot to investigate phenomena on the fringes of mainstream science, is a very accomplished speaker, has been everywhere and knows everyone, and we're very proud to feature him as one of the Witnesses on our site.

But not so many people will have heard of Wade Frazier. His website, which is called ahealedplanet.net, has 1,200 pages. It is encyclopedic in its scope and it tells Wade’s story of a non-stop running skirmish with the whole issue of free energy. And you're taking to heart this, as a cause, which is very much what Brian O’Leary has done.

Some people think that free energy is all about an inventor sitting in a garage or a basement with a bunch of electronics and magnets, and getting a little machine to work that will light up a light bulb and everyone thinks: Gee Whiz! This is a neat little device here. It’s an alternative to having a windmill in my garden.

And this is very far from the point, because free energy is at the hub of so many issues that are connected with how our planet is run and controlled, that it really is one of the very central places to start.

Wade, and what he has to say about free energy, needs to be heard. It’s a very, very important story. And, what I’m looking forward to here in the next hour or so is a conversation primarily with Wade and Brian O’Leary, to talk about why free energy is something that we should care about, why it should be politicized, why it affects every corner of our lives.

And for those people who have ventured into this area with practical intentions, it’s proved to be quite a dangerous path for them to tread because they can really interfere with the agendas of others.

This is really what I would like to talk about. It isn’t going to be a technical conversation. It’s going to be a conversation about the paradigm shift that’s necessary for free energy to be ushered into this world in the 21st century.

And I wonder, Wade, what it is about free energy that has made this virtually your life mission? Why is it so important? Why have you devoted so much of your time and your soul to this cause?

WF:  Thank you, Bill. As you know, it was a very long story that began when I was a child. I’m over fifty now, but my journey in the alternative energy area began when I was a teenager.

I was groomed to be a scientist from a very young age. And when I was sixteen years old, one of my professional mentors had invented an engine which was considered the best for powering an automobile. It created quite a lot of interest from the federal government in the United States. In fact, they spent millions of dollars developing and analyzing it.

But also it never went anywhere. And, in fact, the inventor was told that if he thought his engine was going to make the internal combustion engine obsolete, he should start making his funeral plans. And so this was my introduction to this whole area, back in 1974.

BR:  That was when you were still a teenager, Wade. Is that right?

WF:  Yes. I was sixteen years old, and at that time I had the dream of changing the energy paradigm in this world. At age sixteen I had no idea what I could do about it, but it was a dream that I had. And so then I continued my science studies.

And so, I think very importantly... In fact, most of the people that I’m aware of in this field, we generally have some kind of mystical orientation because we’ve had some experiences that opened our paradigm to beyond the “scientistic” paradigm, and saw a broader picture. Fellow travelers in this field, I think most of them would say, that that was probably key.

Anyway, so... I then went to college and had some strange experiences that changed my studies from chemistry to accounting. Then I got out of school and went to work in Los Angeles and did my CPA thing.

After several years of kind of being frustrated in the corporate world, I had another very strange set of events, capped with a paranormal experience, that led me directly into a company up here in Seattle. This was 1986. They were marketing energy conservation equipment here in Seattle. Basically it’s a heating system that would save 80% of your heating costs.

I joined the company as it was actually being bludgeoned out of existence by the energy interests up here in the Northwest. Because of that childhood dream and my background, even though the company was destroyed, the founder couldn’t get rid of me. So I ended up following him across the country to Boston, and then that’s when we started pursuing free energy, if you will.

The technology that we were pursuing was actually marrying the heat pump that Dennis Lee, the guy in Seattle, was marketing, with the engine that my old mentor developed. [laughs] We were actually trying to marry those together. Then we ended up in Ventura, California, which is where I was raised, and then started making a lot of noise.

I mean, my partner, Dennis -- he’s the Indiana Jones of alternative energy. He’s been behind bars, survived murder attempts. Currently the Federal Trade Commission is trying to shut him down.

Anyway, in Ventura then, we really got the attention of the people who I will say manage the energy paradigm on this planet. We received an offer in Boston and then we received another one in California. My partner was offered a billion dollars to fold up the operation and go away. The offer was made by a CIA man who said he represented European interests.

A month after my partner declined their offer, he found himself in jail with a million-dollar bail. The man who arrested him got promoted to be in charge of the jail, a couple weeks later, and got an award, and all these kinds of things.

So anyway, it was quite a radicalizing experience for me because they eventually took their masks off in Ventura to me and admitted to my face that their job was to take us out. So they did their best, and it was actually a pretty good job. They wrecked many, many lives.

I ended up leaving Ventura back in 1990 after a couple of us essentially sprung Dennis from jail. He ended up only spending two years behind bars. And then I spent the next twelve years trying to figure out what I had just lived through and realized that probably everything I thought I knew was probably not true.

And so then, the result of those twelve years of research... I don’t know, I probably read a quarter-million pages of material or something like that, and again, turned it into the website that I have today.

And yes, Bill, it’s a thing that the energy situation... Humanity rides on top of it. In fact, humanity always has. Life on Earth, the human journey, it’s all... the energy situation is at the root of all that.

And so an energy scarcity has defined the human journey. Even though I live in the richest, most powerful nation in history and the average American consumes eighty times the calories that go into their diets, we’re still a scarcity-based society.

The increasing level of energy use that the West has enjoyed has definitely transformed our society in many ways. It took a lot of old social structures and made them obsolete. Slavery began with early civilization and ended with early industrialization. The liberation of women... all these things. There’s an essentially economic basis that underlies that, which is powered by energy.

And what we found was that there’s people who manage the energy situation on a global basis. It can be debated who they are, what their motives are. Could they just be protecting their market? I tend to believe that they are maintaining their global power structure. That’s my conclusion.

And again, I’ve run into fellow travelers since then, Brian among them, who... we’ve generally come to about the same vicinity of understanding the problem, the issues, and the opportunities and what’s possible.

So I’m aware, and I think Brian is, and most of us are aware that there are energy technologies. You know, the guy tinkering around in his garage, if he ever really comes up with something, then he does attract the attention of the global controllers, I’ll call them.

And in fact, people who poke their nose into this pretty deeply... Again, it’s risky business. There’s a lot of people who have had their lives wrecked, or they’re dead, or they’re silenced somehow.

But some people, like Steven Greer who’s a warrior -- or Dennis -- he ended up banging on the front door of the White House and all this kind of stuff. And eventually Greer interacted with at least a faction of this global control organization. They admitted that they’ve paid one hundred billion dollars in “quiet money” over the last couple generations to put the lid on “disruptive technologies”.

And I would say that free energy is probably at the top of that list, although my understanding is, from people very close to me who’ve witnessed some of these things, that antigravity... the people that you interview on your Project Camelot site. A lot of the things that I hear them say are things that I’ve also had experience of.

And so, we kind of come to the same general vicinity. But my message, and I think Brian’s... essentially there’s a big picture to see here, and the energy situation is really the keystone of the thing.

And, as far as why free energy and what it can bring about seems to be so unimaginable in our societies. I don’t know how conspiratorial that’s been, because eventually, after all my years of study and experience, etcetera, and being introduced to Bucky Fuller’s work, I came to realize what these ideologies have that keep us from seeing the big picture.

They all are scarcity-based and so they all have a scarcity-based component to them. And in fact they also have a component where, if you give your allegiance to this certain ideology, then it feeds you. And so you’re very reluctant to give up your belief system.

So free energy, etcetera... there can be an abundance-based foundation of our society, which... the human journey’s never seen that. So it’s something that really... it’s difficult to wrap your head around. It takes a long time to do that.

And what I found is you have to really lay aside all your conditioning of your scarcity-based kinds of ideologies like capitalism, or nationalism, or a lot of the scientism, the rationalist / materialist paradigm. All these things are very subtly scarcity-based. Some are less subtle than others, but in the end that’s what they have all in common.

And so, what free energy ends up doing is you can actually replace that scarcity assumption with an abundance assumption. It’s a shift that would be... we’ve never seen it before.

I mean, in fact all of the epochal so-called revolutions of the human journey -- the super-predator revolution, or the domestication revolution, or the industrialization revolution -- essentially humanity was able to tap into another energy source and control a bunch more energy in a way that was able to free up people beyond survival.

I live in the United States and it’s been a pretty comfortable existence to be an American, even though most Americans today are wondering if they’re going to lose their job next week.

BR:  Walking some of our listeners through this world that you describe as a thought experiment... Supposing there was a little black box in every house and in every truck, or in every plane there’s a slightly larger black box, and every power station has a really big black box. And this black box just gave as much output as one needed at zero cost once you’ve actually got this thing there. How does the world change? I’d love to ask Brian’s view.

Brian O’Leary (B’OL):  Hi. Hello everybody. It’s good to be talking with you again, Bill, and to hear you’re reading Wade, because certainly both Wade and I have had parallel pathways of discovery, of stepping outside of the box of mainstream thinking. It’s taken quite a while, and it can be a very painful process. It’s a process that the general public now is, I think, beginning to awaken to.

In answer to your question, Bill, imagine a world where we have these, say, little 10-kilowatt power-packs that you can put in your circuit-breaker box or under the hood of your car. The world would change overnight. Let’s say we made two or three billion of these...

Now, I’m not saying that I necessarily advocate doing this under the system we now have. And that, of course, then begs the question of political and economic control, and some of the reasons why this technology has been so suppressed. And believe me, Wade and I have personally had many, many experiences around that since our own awareness became more pronounced.

So what I see happening is that this new world -- as long as the governments of the world and the corporations of the world change systemically--and that’s been my plea...

Gosh, on my website I just posted a letter to Obama. It was an open appeal, basically, to please address the systemic changes we need so that we can usher in some of these new technologies in a very benign way, that we can do things differently, that we don’t want Dick Cheney running this one, too. Nor do we want the current US government, such as it is, to be running this one.

Obviously these technologies are a big threat to vested interests, whether you’re a scientist... And we know that the whole history of science is just riddled with denial of new developments, whether it was during the Copernican revolution, the time of Keppler, Galileo. The Wright brothers -- their initial flight, the reporter that reported it was far from its position and Scientific American about a year later ran an editorial, a scathing editorial, denying that aviation ever existed - because it wasn’t reported!

Historically we can look at the structure of scientific revolutions -- Thomas Kuhn’s book -- and I know Wade is acutely aware of this. We’ve both been studying this kind of thing about paradigm shifts many times, and it’s now happening once again in spades. And as Wade points out, the energy picture in our time is probably more important than anything else.

And so we have to kind of break this down and look at this from a sociologist’s point of view as: Who’s doing the suppressing and why are they doing the suppressing? And what you find when you really look at these things -- because Wade and I have already seen for ourselves numerous demonstrations of proof-of-concept of the new energy technologies -- why are they so violently suppressed?

So you have this unwitting alliance among scientists, corporatists, governments. Even progressives - people who otherwise might want to embrace this possibility - even the progressives are not looking at these things, and that, of course, is the saddest part.

And so, in our own way Wade and I kind of in parallel discovered that there is a whole process. It’s an emotional process. It’s a sociological one, where people who are trying to protect their own interests seem to dig their heels in even more than they otherwise would have, in order to protect their careers or their vested interests.

So the scientists... most of the mainstream scientific community, just like in the early days of aviation, are denying the possibility of free energy and will go out of their way to debunk it. And there certainly have been many, many examples of that.

But it’s not only the scientists. It’s the government itself. It’s the progressives. It’s... The people that call themselves environmentalists are obviously not radical enough. They’re thinking of things like solar energy and wind energy.

But, you know, one of the disappointments I came to, back in the ’70s when I was working for Morris Udall... He was a congressman who was running for president, and he wanted to develop renewable clean energy, and in those days my only horizon of awareness was solar, wind, the so-called traditional renewables.

But then a later study, if you look at the cost and benefits, you find that solar and wind is materials-intensive; it’s land-intensive; it’s capital-intensive. We’re talking about tens of trillions of dollars to invest in a whole new system of solar or wind to provide the world with its power, and that’s just not going to fly, especially in today’s economic climate.

We need to be smarter about this. We need to look into the 21st century, towards those technologies that will truly give us a clean energy society.

And my own discovery... During the 1980s and ’90s I traveled the world and visited some of the best and brightest inventors and wrote some books about this. And I finally came to my Ah-ha! that indeed this could change the world if it were implemented properly.

So this whole new energy activism that Wade and I share is a great enthusiasm, but there’s also this undercurrent of sadness about how our planet, and almost all of nature, is being destroyed by a cancerous humanity that is not awakening to these possibilities, which could then buy us a little time while we really try to reform our culture and do the systemic changes that we really need to do.

BR:  Brian, thank you. That’s a wonderfully articulate presentation of the problem and presentation of the challenge.

I’d like to ask Wade if you could tell the second-hand story of this free energy pioneer, whose credibility you feel is total, who you said was shown by “The Powers That Be” what technology they actually have. And it was explained to him why they’re keeping this secret. This is a story that people need to hear.

WF:  Yes. During my years I came in contact with quite an interesting group of people. And anyway, one of my very close associates, yes, was shown -- in a very remote setting -- some of the technologies that exist today on Earth: antigravity, free energy. These technologies exist, you know.

And for me, I put my jigsaw puzzle together of the picture at least that I see from all of this. And the people who have really been out there -- I mean, it’s not for the timid -- and the people who have survived anyway being out there and come back to tell what they’ve experienced... And the picture that I see is that the people who are calling the shots on the planet like calling the shots on the planet, and they don’t want to give that up.

Energy independence would truly make everybody independent. And so, we are so energy dependent. We are so dependent on other people providing us our energy. If we actually had our own source of it, the very centralized, very steeply hierarchical political-economic-social systems we have in the world would become obsolete.

For instance, this friend of mine who had this demonstration... the people who are currently addicted to the power that they have over the planet, they will do whatever it takes to maintain it. And the technologies they have are way beyond what is on the market today. I mean, it’s Star Trek kind of stuff.

BR:  Wade, did your friend tell you what it was exactly that he was shown? And was he given an explanation for why he was being shown this? And I’m assuming he must have been given an explanation why this technology was being withheld and not being released.

Kerry, it might be better, to help Wade, if you could take the lead on this, because Wade is having trouble understanding my gentleman’s accent here.

Kerry Cassidy (KC):  [laughs] I know. That’s OK. I’m sorry about that. Wade, what he wants to know, and I’d love to know myself, what exactly was the technology that your friend was shown?

WF:  At least free energy, and at least antigravity. OK? Those were two of the technologies that were definitely shown off. OK? And I almost didn’t want to know a whole lot more because the knowledge can be considered dangerous to have. But there was a host of exotic technologies that were demonstrated, free energy and antigravity probably most prominently.

KC:  You say that technology was demonstrated. In other words, did they see craft, for example?

WF:  This was in an underground setting, so they definitely didn’t want to fly anything around, or at least the antigravity demonstration wasn’t something like a mothership. It was pretty small.

But anyway, I’m saying these technologies were demonstrated. And again, the people who demonstrated them admitted that they do not have the freedom to essentially come above-board and bring this stuff to the world. And they also, though, said that they would like to bring it out, but it’s not safe.

KC:  OK. Why was your friend shown this? Why him?

WF:  Oh, why was my friend...? OK. So, my fr... Boy! This is where I have to be kind of careful. The circles I run around in -- I have run around in; I’m kind of semi-retired from this stuff -- but again, they go banging on the front door of the White House, go banging on the front door of the Pentagon, go banging on the front door of some corporations.

Sometimes you get to meet the wizard. This person was high profile at the time. They were banging on the doors. They were stirring things up and they got a show.

KC:  OK. Can you tell us what aspect of, or do you know, what part of the military was involved in showing this stuff?

WF:  This person does not even know who it was who showed it to him.

KC:  Fascinating. OK. Very interesting.

WF:  This was a very, very secure operation. So secure...

KC:  And where was the underground base located? Can you say the state?

WF:  I am not sure. I believe it was in the United States. This person does not know where. They were taken there blindfolded. And they get to take the blindfold off, and they’re underground someplace, and there’s these people demonstrating something. And they’re talking to you and they know who you are. And they’re saying: Hey, we've got some things to show you. It was that kind of setting.

KC:  OK.

WF:  Until this person wants to talk publicly about it, I am not going to reveal too much information about it. Stuff that people have disclosed publicly, then I will.

So, again, Dennis got a billion-dollar offer. When I was with Dennis, we had some very interesting interactions with some of these groups. And again, as I recall, Bill calls them white-hats and black-hats. And we had encounters with both groups. OK?

And we would get periodically contacted by the white-hat group. It was very cryptic. All of a sudden you’re working in the office late one night and you get a telephone call. And it’s like: "Keep up the good work." This kind of thing. And so you’re kind of wondering: "What was that all about?" [laughs]

So anyway, all I know is that during my days with Dennis, we were extremely high profile. And in fact I have written, because it’s a little safer to disclose it now, but when I was with him in ’96, ’97 we were subjected to an extremely elaborate sting operation that was trying to entrap us. And again, it was people who said they were going to give us a bunch of money to make things happen.

About a year later I heard Tom Bearden talking about a very similar situation, saying how: "Yes, they say they’re going to come and give you all this money, but it’s dirty money, and as soon as you sign for the money they whisk you off to prison."

And it wasn’t until... actually it was last fall that I started writing about the financial meltdown and my interactions with some of these players and I came to slowly realize that we were being set up, and in fact in almost the same kind of operation that Bearden described.

It was extremely elaborate, with penthouses in Manhattan and sovereign nations being involved. It was very elaborate. And I really don’t know. What was real and what was fabricated? I don’t know. How many people were duped and how many were in on it? I’ll probably never know.

But I do know that we were being set up, whoever all these people are. Again, the Federal Trade Commission right now is trying to shut down Dennis. I haven’t been involved with Dennis since the ’90s, but they’re trying to shut him down right now.

And when they clobbered us in Ventura, when they clobbered him in Washington, or they were about to clobber us in Boston, it’s usually the government that’s wielding the public club. But they’re just taking orders. I mean, they’re not the guys really in charge of the operation.

And that’s when Dennis got the billion-dollar offer to fold up his tents and go away, that was not delivered... Oh yes, CIA representing European interests, or at least that’s what they said. So that’s... There’s your private/government, quasi- kind of thing going on. And then, again, the government comes and shuts you down.

The sting operation that we were being subjected to, at the same time that I get a letter from our phone company that the Justice Department had subpoenaed our phone records and gagged them for six months from notifying us that they had, etcetera.

You’re kind of wondering who all is involved, and how many different ways they’re coming at you. And I saw that in Seattle in ’86. I saw that in Ventura. We were subject to kind of a whole new level of the game when I was with Dennis back in ’96, ’97. So anyway, again...

KC:  Why do you think that was, though? Was it because you guys were so close?

WF:  Why that we got the attention that we did?

KC:  Yes.

WF:  Oh, because my partner, he... Again, when I met him in ’86, he was selling equipment. He was actually making an economic impact in the marketplace. And again, the closer you get to the market, the greater the resistance is going to be.

So, yes, a guy tinkering in his garage, they just... they leave him... They’ll keep tabs on him, but they’re going to pretty much leave him alone unless he really comes up with something. Then he’ll get some attention.

But we had a national effort going on. He sold quite a few millions of dollars of his heat pump. And he was trying to carpet Puget Sound with these heat pumps which was... One calculation was the local electric company was going to lose something like twenty billion dollars in revenues over the next twenty years.

KC:  Wade, when you say the white-hats were trying to show you this technology and they would call you up late at night and encourage you, do you know anything more about who the white-hats were? And did your friend actually ever have any kind of meetings with those white-hats? Were they military?

WF:  I’ll say this. I described the underground situation, and we would get called, and then we actually did get the suave façade of the black-hats, offering us a billion dollars, and then I’m sure they were behind what happened to us in Ventura. I do listen. And again, for instance, Steven Greer has interacted quite a bit in these arenas, and the picture that he has developed of what he’s seen, I pretty much think he’s right.

And so, in fact when they mentioned the hundred billion dollars in “quiet money”, I was going: "Well, that makes perfect sense." Because just in my journey I’ve run into quite a few inventors who had been bought out, threatened, killed, this kind of thing. And when I heard that, a hundred billion dollars in quiet money, it made perfect sense.

Brian’s friend, John Rappoport, he said there’s eight economic cartels on the planet that kind of divvied up the world economy. I won’t deny that, because I’ve seen similar activities taking place in medicine, media, these kinds of things.

KC:  Wade, can you talk about the white-hats, though?

WF:  I will talk about the white-hats. So, it’s interesting. I have one person I encountered once who was abducted, drugged, and put into an insane asylum. And when they were in this asylum -- and it was a way to keep him quiet -- there were kind of white-hat people in the asylum who were kind of looking out for him. I’m sure you guys have encountered this in some of the things I’ve read on your site, where this kind of thing goes on. So there are these kinds of surreptitious white-hat people.

And I don’t know exactly how that structure operates, but my understanding is that the, let’s say two- to three-hundred people who are kind of the policy-makers for the world economy... I would say that thirty years ago it was a very small fraction of them, like five percent, or maybe just a few here and there, who were kind of not really sure they liked the program any longer.

Several years ago I heard Greer say that it’s almost 50/50 now, to where the so-called white-hats... I don’t know how white those hats are but I believe that there’s a definite fracture in that structure, to where a lot of them realize that we’re going to turn the Earth into a cinder on the path we’re going. And so, they don’t like that program. They have grandchildren and this kind of thing.

And so I think there has been a fracturing happen because the game’s getting pretty scary for them and so they don’t want it. So I don’t know how white those hats are. But I believe that what my friend was shown in the underground setting was some faction of that disenchanted half. That is my perception.

KC:  So you believe that these people basically took care of your operation in Ventura. They closed it down, in essence. Right?

WF:  Oh yes. In fact, when they raided us I was twenty-nine, young and naïve, and thirteen armed deputies come in and kick us out of the buildings. And then they ransack our chief researcher’s office, strip it out to the walls, and then didn’t start the so-called “official search” for several hours later, said they never were in the room... except the researcher and one of our machinists, who was out behind the building, were able to actually see into the building and watch them ransacking the office. So this was when they first raided us.

So at that moment we realized that this had nothing to do with trying to see if we’re committing crimes or not. I mean, they were committing the crimes right off the bat. Anyway, at that moment we realized that... I mean, I realized that definitely this had nothing to do with trying to protect the public or anything like that.

And then, for me though, it was a thing of... It wasn’t until I was on the witness stand -- and Dennis was in leg irons and with a million-dollar bail -- and the prosecution is actually making faces at me as I’m on the witness stand. I mean, in kind of a Stalinist show-trial atmosphere. In fact the guy making faces at me was the guy who was in charge of the jail that Dennis was in.

And then at that moment, that was essentially my radicalizing moment, where a twelve-year journey of gradual disillusionment, etcetera, sort of came to a head for me and I kind of: "Ah-ha!" That was my big Ah-ha! moment, sitting on the witness stand where they’re making faces at me as I’m testifying.

KC:  Wade, I’d like to go over to Brian... what you can say about how the world needs to change in order to accept free energy and whether you think that there’s actually any hope at the moment for that happening?

BO’L:  Very good question, Kerry, and I wish I could answer it simply, because who knows what The Powers That Be are doing in quiet session right now.

What I can say is that the concepts are there. There’s a very clear possibility we can develop these things, and there are many of us who’ve been advocating it for a long time. It seems like the political climate hasn’t really changed.

On the other hand, the public is getting really pissed off at what’s happening. Certainly the economic demise we’re all going through right now is perhaps a metaphor or symbol, an archetype, for what could happen in the energy area, that even the protestors -- the Bill McKibbens of the world or the so-called free thinkers about Peak Oil or global warming, whether it’s James Hansen or Richard Heinberg or all of these other people who have advocated radical change -- still do not embrace the possibility of free energy.

So even though some of us, Wade and I and a number of others, have been attempting to educate some of these more visible progressive people about the possibility of free energy... and I’ve even had conversations with Congressman Dennis Kucinich about it and he did carefully listen. He did acknowledge it. He did want to introduce legislation to support the research and development on it and make this publicly more visible.

Even though all of these things have been acknowledged and communicated, the fact remains that the consensus among the so-called progressives is still a complete denial about the possibility of free energy.

And that, to me, was the most astounding discovery I made that -- having done almost two decades ago my world travels to find out for myself as a scientist that indeed these concepts are very real; there are many, many different parallel technologies, any one, or some of which could do the trick -- but whenever it comes time for actual development of it, that’s when people step in.

And that discovery which I made on my own, and Wade has made it on his own, and many, many others -- Tom Bearden -- many, many other people on the cutting edge of these technologies have all come to believe that the world is definitely controlled by a cabal of people who don’t want this to happen.

That’s the saddest part of it, is the lack of awareness among most people in the world that this is even a possibility. And if I were to develop policy, my own thinking is that: "Well, we should leave no stone unturned in our quest for clean energy, and creating a world of abundance."

But somehow that’s perceived by The Powers That Be as a threat to them, just like significant economic reform -- or economic revolution is probably a better word now for the situation we’re in -- has been vehemently opposed by Wall Street and the people in charge. They’re digging their heels in.

So we’re involved in this incredible storyline that’s probably more sensational than anything that could be dreamt up in Hollywood. And unfortunately most people have been very slow to awaken to this possibility.

Because in a sense the politically palatable way of presenting this material is that, simply: "This is a possibility. Let’s look at it. Let’s see how we might be able to implement it. Let’s see what kind of world we can have with this implementation." These are the questions that need to be asked now.

KC:  OK. Thank you, Brian. Wade, what do you think about the potential for free energy now, after you’ve been through all that you’ve been through? Politically, I mean... What do you think the chances of actually turning the tide, as you say, using white-hats who are obviously, you know, not happy with the situation? And there are many people behind -- they’re very unhappy with the current situation. They’re looking for news ways of doing things. Do you think that the climate is such that perhaps this new energy technology can now come through?

WF:  I think you’re kind of getting to the nub of the matter here. In my work -- and again the things I realized, and this was through my radicalizing experiences -- there’s the black-hats and the white-hats and they’re definitely doing their thing.

At the same time, they’re really not very powerful. I mean, you’re talking maybe a few thousand people out of six billion people. And they have definitely a lot of tricks in their bag.

But when the dust settled in Ventura I realized that if I had a hundred Dennis's, free energy would have been easy. It would have been... We’d have been unstoppable. But there’s only a few of him on the planet.

So, the thing is for me, is that it’s not about the white- and black-hats. It’s about us, the great unwashed masses. We can make it happen. But we can’t make it happen if we can’t even imagine that it can be better.

That’s the message that I’m trying to get across. I’m trying to make free energy thinkable. I’m trying to make it to where... to bring it out of, either as Bill said, some guy tinkering in his garage, or some Star Trek fantasy or something, to say: "Now these things, I know they’re real. I know they’re possible." And the outcome of that...

I’ve been living with this for many years. I can barely imagine what it could do. The whole course of the human journey could change very dramatically. And so, I think if enough people kind of understood that, it wouldn’t take very many people to just even think about this stuff to maybe create enough momentum to go in the direction of helping it happen.

Because what happens is, the people pursuing these things, they’re out there alone in the desert. I mean, that’s the problem. They’re out there alone in the desert and they’re so vulnerable. Again, most people just take the money. So the hundred billion dollars in quiet money... I bet that worked ninety-five percent of the time. They just took the money and it was over.

KC:  And when you don’t take the money, what do you think happens to the people when they don’t take the money?

WF:  Then they start playing rough.

KC:  OK.

WF:  And again, most people take the money. In fact, again, Bearden, I heard him talk eleven years ago or so about this. And so what they do is... it’s a carrot and stick.

They’re very subtle. I mean, it’s a very... how to say it? If they came right out in the open and it was very obvious what they were doing, too many people would catch on. So it’s a very sophisticated, very subtle kind of way they operate. You know, it took me over ten years after the sting operation almost nabbed us for me to kind of figure out what was going on. And so it’s very subtle.

And Bearden talks about how they operate. Again, what I’ve seen, I think he’s right. And also what I’ve seen, though, is that one provocateur set loose in the midst of a hundred average people? Provocateur prevails. Particularly when you start having the pressure of like we were experiencing in Ventura and Seattle.

KC:  So what is it... do you think that they’re still after you, so to speak, in that they’re still messing with you and the people that you know that are working in this area?

WF:  Oh God! Oh sure!

KC:  Do you think they’re still messing with you?

WF:  I don’t know of an issue of a greater magnitude than the energy issue that humanity’s facing right now. Oh my God, we’re having wars in Asia, killing millions of people over the hydrocarbons. The issue is so multi-faceted, it’s so immense, that... Oh yes, this is being very carefully managed.

And again, these “disruptive technologies” are very carefully monitored. What my friend saw was somehow somebody snuck something out the back door and demonstrated some of the stuff, you know? It’s very tightly controlled to make sure that “disruptive technologies”, particularly like free energy, do not appear on the scene.

You know, it’s possible that it’s going to come down to the white-hats and black-hats. It’s possible that’s how it’s going to be determined. Part of me hopes that’s not how it happens. Part of me hopes that enough of US make enough noise in a positive way.

But if enough people understood the potential, understood what was possible, and understood how important they could be to help making that happen by just simply lending their awareness to the issue... That’s what I’m trying to find out. I think that that’s a way that it can happen.

KC:  Thank you, Wade. That’s great. Brian, I would like to ask you, because it sounds like you and Wade are actually on the same page with this, as far as what’s necessary next is to get the word out in such a way that people become educated so that the mass of people can actually maybe turn the tide. Is that your feeling?

BO’L:  Absolutely, Kerry. And indeed Wade and I are on the same page. And it’s not very many of us on this planet that are on the same page right now, so it’s kind of a lonely process. But to the degree that we can at least instill in enough people the fact that these things are very real, that the concepts have been shown to exist, that their development requires an R & D effort like anything else that involves new technologies. This certainly has happened in information technology quite abundantly.

KC:  So, Wade, what are you doing now? I mean, I know you’ve kind of run a very hard race, it sounds like, trying to get this stuff out there. Are you in touch with some people now that are actually working on free energy that are being interfered with?

WF:  Yes. Yes, there’s some. I lived through it. On my journey I saw enough people like me going through similar things. Brian is in contact with many more of those kind of people than I am. I’m aware of quite a few. I’m in touch with some. And I love them, these people who are trying to do these things, but they don’t have any support.

KC:  Your effort is to drum up the support?

WF:  Yes!

KC:  In other words, you’ve kind of changed your tactic from encouraging or working on free energy directly yourself, to trying to drum up a grassroots effort?

WF:  In the end, if I can have a part in helping people just imagine that it’s possible, for me... I’m done. If I achieve that, I will have achieved something that I would be happy to achieve. That would be enough for me to just help enough people understand that these things are feasible, and what can come out of that.

Yes, that’s where I’ve been since 1989 when I sprung Dennis from jail. I was pretty much done. And again he got me to rejoin with him back in ’96, ’97. I was only there a few months but it was a thing where I haven’t really been actively involved in doing the Indiana Jones thing for, again, twenty years.

And again, three years was... That was enough. It was enough for one life for me of doing that. In fact, I don’t know how Dennis does it. Some of these people, I don’t know how they do it. I really don’t know.

KC:  When you say you don’t know how they do it, you’re saying you don’t know how they deal with the opposition that they get? Is that what you mean?

WF:  No-no. I mean, so here’s Dennis, survived a number of murder attempts, been behind bars twice for two years, almost got killed inside there, turned down a billion-dollar offer to go away. There’s now, again, there’s going to be some TV show’s going to smear him on Sunday. The FTC’s trying to shut him down, and he’s still at it! That’s the part where I’m going: How do you still keep doing it? So that’s the thing that, for me, boggles my mind.

Or again, there’s other people. I mean, Greer’s one of them. They go through immense hardships, and they come back for more. And for me, that’s...

Like Brian. Brian’s been doing this for a long time. And I’ve been doing it, but I don’t play at their level. I tried to do something different and again, the ride was too rough for me. The ride was too rough. And I said: "I can’t afford to do that anymore". Anyway, that’s kind of what I was saying, is that I don’t know how some of these people are able to do what they do.

KC:  Are you familiar with Ralph Ring? Ralph Ring is a free energy person from way back. Back in the ’60s, the FBI came in and closed him down when he was working with Otis Carr. So I wondered if perhaps you knew about him. He’s quite elderly.

WF:  No.

KC:  He’s actually now back at it. He’s back at work trying to get funding, and...

WF:  I have nothing but admiration...

KC:  So do you give advice to these people? John Hutchison, for example. Do you know him?

WF:  Yes. I’ve interacted with Mr. Hutchison. Oh man... it’s hard,  because I can... That they’re trying to do it is so honorable and wonderful, and the odds against them are SO immense. I mean, they’re SO immense. in today’s world. And so it’s like a mouse trying to take on an elephant. And you’re seeing this and my heart goes out to these people for this.

And again, I’m trying to say: " I’m trying to get you some help by helping more people to become aware of what’s going on." Because most of these people, they just end up... as Brian said this is a lonely, lonely journey. They can’t do it by themselves.

My opinion is that they don’t have a prayer by themselves. They’re too vulnerable. It’s easy to take them out. We had hundreds and hundreds of people involved when they took us out. It takes more. It takes more people with the right stuff.

KC:  Do you think times have changed sufficiently to where there might be a chance for these people, because of the downturn in the economy and the discontent that’s out there?

WF:  Yes, I believe that the big shifts will happen quite often when the current structure kind of crumbles. Right? So it does bring opportunities.

Yes, these are very pregnant times. I believe that we are in the middle of quite a transition. Whether we make it or not is probably still an open question, but I think we are in this transitory time when the old ways are starting to crumble. So yes, there’s lots of opportunity.

And again, what Brian is trying to do, what I’m trying to do is to give extremely positive solutions that are right there. It wouldn’t take much to turn this into heaven on Earth. It really wouldn’t take that much to do that. Definitely there’s more people who are pulling up from the dream, let’s say, that we’re all kind of fed, and trying to see differently. So yes, I think there’s opportunity.

KC:  Well it’s wonderful to hear you say that. And obviously, after all that you’ve been through, it’s really extraordinary that you can still hold that perspective.

WF:  Well, thank you, and it hasn’t been easy.

KC:  [laughs] OK. Well I did want to ask you, what was your paranormal event, or series of events, that pushed you on this road?

WF:  OK. I was this science prodigy as a young child. And again, my dad used to work in Mission Control, and so... I mean, my dad left Houston just before Brian moved there, and so we’ve had these kind of parallel...

Anyhow, I was this kind of space brat, scientist kid. And as a teenager I started getting introduced to some of the pretty mundane inventions that were, compared to what’s on the market, truly revolutionary.

And again that’s when I started kind of “getting it.” Like when I was twelve years old, my father reversed the hardening of his arteries by adopting a live-food diet, something that medicine at that time said was impossible. So I was introduced to the impossible happening at age twelve. And again, I had my mystical awakening at age sixteen...

KC:  OK. But what’s your mystical awakening? What do you mean when you say your mystical awakening

WF:  OK. That’s a good question. Brian and I had the same exercise that both initiated our mystical awakening, which was... back then it was called the Edgar Cayce Method. Today they call it remote viewing. But I was in a Silva Mind Control class in 1974. Brian took Lifespring in 1979.

And at the end of this training, you’re given the name, age, sex, and city and then I was able to describe... Well, actually more dramatically, I had somebody in mind, and I gave this information to somebody else, and they were able to describe to me -- in startling detail -- this person.

That was the beginning of my mystical awakening, was seeing people perform psychically, very dramatically. And then it was my turn and I was able to do the same thing. And Brian, when he took Lifespring, he had the same experience. In fact, those classes were very popular in the ’70s. Millions of people took them with similar results.

Anyway, for me, that turned something on in me and I think it opened up my intuitive side. But again, to me it was the beginning of my mystical awakening. And most of my fellow travelers in this field, they usually had some kind of experience like that when they were in their late teens or early twenties. Greer had a near-death experience at seventeen.

One of my fellow travelers had a Kundalini experience as a college physics student and then developed a free energy prototype that was immediately seized. And again, he was in his early twenties. This is a very common age when this kind of thing happened.

And my professional mentor that invented the engine and stuff, you know, “world’s best engine” comes to him at a stoplight! Where does that come from?

So anyway, I just had enough of those kinds of experiences and then had some of my own experiences that really opened my eyes.

KC:  What about UFOs? Did you have any kind of encounter experiences?

WF:  Yes. I’ve encountered lots of people who’ve seen craft. Some people have had “close encounters of the third kind”. But I just heard a lot of this stuff. It was on my list of things to do, was to go out and see one, and then...

Anyway, one of my fellow free energy travelers said he would go down near Mount Adams and watch UFOs fly over. A couple of my aerospace buddies from Boeing organized a trip there, in 2005, for us to go watch UFOs, and we got our show. And I went back the next two years in a row, and I got a show every year.

KC:  Oh, you went to Trout Lake? [Ed. note: James Gilliland's ranch in Washington state]

WF:  Yes.

KC:  Absolutely. We went as well, and we’ve seen James Gilliland’s, you know, we’ve been up to his ranch and saw the craft.

WF:  Our first night there, James said: "Let me see if I can get one to do something", and a minute later one did, very dramatically. In fact, there was an Air Force captain standing next to me, and again, a couple of Boeing guys, and it blew their doors off, that’s for sure. So anyway, yes. I’ve experienced that.

KC:  Bill is telling me that when your friend had his machine seized, that they knew it was there even though it was a secret. Do you think they remote-viewed? They had their remote viewers tap into the situation?

WF:  You know, I don’t know on that one. I just know that, actually it got seized twice. I’m going: "Wow, they must have pretty good surveillance to do that kind of stuff." And then again in my circles, somebody who should know said: "Oh yes. They can tell when anybody in the planet taps into that field." And I’m like: "Oh... OK."

I don’t know exactly how they’re able to surveil and to do this but they did. He was a physics student and he actually goes into this physics lab and he bread-boards a prototype that works. I think he was using the radiant effect, which is one of the free energy ways out there.

He had a Men-in-Black experience a few hours later... seized the prototype. He was kind of booted out onto the sidewalk, kind of going: "What the hell was that all about?" He was probably, you know, twenty-one or something. And anyway, so he’s like: "They can’t do that!"

So he goes and rents out some warehouse space somewhere very secretly under an assumed name. So he’s doing this secretly -- they’ll never find out. And he ends up making it happen again and a few hours later, Men-in-Black experience again.

KC:  That’s fascinating. I’m sure they surveil the entire planet for free energy devices and I imagine they are able to pick them up in the matrix.

WF:  When I asked somebody: "How’d they do that?" they said: "Well, they have satellite technology that can surveil the whole planet. Anybody taps into this ZPE field, they know it." So I’m like: "Oh. OK."

And, my understanding is that if you ever tap into that kind of stuff, it depends on who you are and where you are as far as what their response will be. So if you’re a group of a hundred people, they’re going to have to be very careful about how they do it. But if you’re just a kid in a lab, they just send in the team. It’s easy to take care of it with just one person.

KC:  Do you think that their tactics have changed over the years?

WF:  I would imagine. In your journey you just hear these various things happening, and you’re kinda going: "Whoa! Look at that." Yes.

So what they used to, let’s say thirty years ago or so, they were extremely violent. I mean I’ve heard of stuff like a guy’s whole family being murdered, and then they burn the house down and then bulldoze it. And this kind of stuff has happened.

Dennis has been high profile a number of times. In Ventura we were pretty high profile, and we were approached once.

I’m going to say probably thirty years ago, there was this guy who was... he had built a windmill farm out in the Southwest. He was rich. He was like apparently worth four hundred million dollars, and he invested thirty-five million dollars of his own money into this windmill farm. He was making electricity. He was trying to sell it to electric companies. And then he was working late at the office one night and he gets a call and pretty much the caller made it very clear that: "You have a choice. You can either leave your facility there, never return, or your family will be dead by dawn. What’s it going to be?"

KC:  [laughs] Wow.

WF:  And again, when you’re worth four hundred million dollars they can’t... what kind of carrot can you give to somebody worth four hundred million dollars? So they just come right out with the stick. Anyway, this guy, he goes: Well, I took out my calculator and I banged in the numbers and that was nine percent of my net worth. And I just decided it ain’t worth it. He just packed his briefcase and leaves and never returned.

And again, he showed up at our office in a limo just before they dropped the sledgehammer on us, and he said: "I wish you guys the best, but you have no idea what you’re up against." So I kind of found out what he was talking about. But I’m saying back then they used to do stuff like that. My understanding is that it’s a more subtle game that takes place now.

WF:  What do you think Brian? Do you think it’s more subtle nowadays?

BO’L:  Oh, very good question, Kerry. Yes, I think it’s a bit more subtle now. I know I’ve had my own experiences and have matched it with others that go back to the early ’90s -- and very unpleasant experiences where I refused to be recruited into something and there was some recrimination and some threats that I won’t go into in detail.

But I think if I compare my story with that of others and look at the history of all of this... Although I can’t say for sure because like my dear friend and late colleague, Gene Mallove, was brutally murdered in ’04.

KC:  What do you think tipped it over the edge with Mallove? Do you think that he was too close to something or that he simply couldn’t be brought under their wing in a certain way? Why do you think they attacked him so brutally?

BO’L:  He was a true hero. He’s one of my heroes of my lifetime. I just tremendously respected his work because... He was the chief science writer for MIT and in 1989 Fleischmann and Pons, two chemists from the University of Utah, claimed to have discovered cold fusion, which is a process that has now been replicated many, many times over by many competent scientists. But at that time, 1989, their claim was viciously refuted by some of the nuclear physicists at MIT.

Well, Mallove was going to support them in debunking the cold fusion discovery and found instead that the MIT scientists were not only falsely debunking the evidence but actually committing fraud. And so he had the courage to stand up to these scientists, and to MIT, whereupon he was summarily dismissed, [laughs] went on his own, and founded Infinite Energy Magazine, which I think is a wonderful magazine, particularly in those days when he was editor.

He was a real advocate of new energy, probably the most articulate one because he was very rigorous scientifically. He would not make any claims that couldn’t be substantiated. And so, obviously from the point of view of the world controllers, he was a threat. And he was also in the process of getting funding for creating a research and development laboratory.

He had been shuttling back and forth to Washington just before his murder, which, although the cover story of the murder was that it was a robbery, the real story... I would say almost anybody that knew him, including his family, are just, you know, beside themselves in trying to find out how this happened, who did it, and so forth. And so there’s an example of a real hero who was sacrificed.

KC:  Do you think that he was sacrificed because he was “one of them” originally and because he was so articulate and getting so close? I mean, in the sense that he worked for MIT. He wasn’t just some guy with an invention in his garage. He actually came out of a very sophisticated background.

BO’L:  Yes. I would imagine, yes, because he was one of the shakers and movers of the field and he pulled no punches. He also had a very, very well-grounded scientific and philosophical perspective on the issues raised by the possibility of free energy. And so he just... this obviously disturbed The Powers That Be.

Another example was Stefan Marinov, who was a professor of physics at the University of Graz in Austria. And also just a few years ago - I forgot the exact year, but it was early this century - he “jumped” from the tenth story of his library building at the University of Graz.

Well, he was Europe’s premier free energy advocate. I’d met him many times, talked with him. He seemed to be a very jolly, and very, very well-adjusted person who was doing really good breakthrough work, even had a motor that he had invented which he demonstrated and quite widely showed. So it’s just another example. There are just so many examples of suppression.

John Hutchison, a dear friend of mine. We’ve toured Japan together and he’s had... Thank God he’s still alive. He’s just a brilliant man who has managed to develop dramatic demonstrations of antigravity technology, with a fantastic intuition, and just a very fine person. Well, the US military has given him no end of problems.

So, you look at these stories, one after another, and you have to come to the conclusion that pretty consistently right up until this moment, these developments have been suppressed. And is it getting any better? I don’t know. I know we’ve had these discussions, Kerry, and you have found some signs that it is and I would love to think that it is.

I think that the people that really need to awaken here, as Wade often suggests, that the only people that seem to awaken and are able to peel the free energy onion are people that are already somewhat sentient and have had experiences in a number of different avenues -- not only science, or not only being a political progressive -- but that people somehow need to go through many, many different experiences in a variety of ways before they can even embrace the possibility that this could happen.

I know for me, I had to go out and visit the inventors, the researchers, myself and make it a personal project to see these proofs-of-concept, and most people don’t have that luxury. And so I feel for them when somebody like me... even though I have all these good credentials. Even so, most people that call themselves “pragmatists” will kind of roll their eyes or glaze, and they won’t even look at the possibility that this could be.

But then if we understand the history of science. If we understand the famous Bertrand Russell quote: "The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance"...

And if we’re talking about totally revamping the economy, totally revamping our energy system, totally revamping our whole industrial and financial culture, which is digging its heels in alongside the military / industrial complex, you’re talking about a revolution here, an energy-solution revolution, which... to the degree that people can become educated to this possibility and to acknowledge it -- or at least lean into it -- to even ask the simple question: OK, I don’t believe this is real or possible, but let’s do a mind exercise and let’s say: “Well, OK, let’s say if somebody comes along with a technology that could truly do this, do we want to have it?”

And I should think that the clear answer would be "Yes!" As long as we can develop social and political systems to birth this whole new paradigm shift, and then we have a fighting chance, I think. And Wade, I’m sure you’d totally agree that we have a fighting chance to save the planet, to respect the Earth and nature.

KC:  I think that’s wonderful, Brian. I think that, you know, that’s a very good point and very well said by you. And Bill wants me to say, that most great scientists are mystics.

WF:  Well that’s what... I mean, if you look at the guys who... physics rides on their shoulders today, Einstein, and Heisenberg, and Schrödinger, and these guys, they all to one degree or another had a mystical orientation.

And again in my own experience with my Tesla-like mentor and again the other people, my fellow travelers, again on the cutting edge of this free energy stuff, they pretty much all have a mystical orientation, to one degree or another. I mean, some are way out there. Some visit other dimensions. And some are kind of like: "Oh, I think I have past lives." So there’s a spectrum there, but essentially they’re not materialists. I mean, none of them are materialists.

KC:  Wade, were you familiar with Mallove and his work?

WF:  Somewhat. I was in contact with Mallove. And again, the New Energy Movement was organizing its conference that it had in 2004 and Mallove was the first speaker lined up. And anyway, we lined him up and a week after that, which was a very strange week, very emotional... It was a bizarre week. Anyway, he gets murdered as I’m being emailed from one of the participants saying: "I think we’re under attack." Anyway, I had that encounter with Mallove.

Again, the thing with Mallove, with me and his work was that I read something he wrote less than a year before he died where he was saying there’s three main ways to go after free energy. And one of them was the exact thing we were trying in Ventura [laughs], which was taking atmospheric heat and being able to get useful work out of it. And again, I was interested in what he had to say about that, so I contacted him and we were going to have some more exchanges, and then he died.

KC:  Right. OK. I’m sorry. You had spoken about that earlier on and I had forgotten about that association.

Well, this is really very, very impressive. Both you guys have got such a great background in all of this and the fact that you’ve taken even your technical skills and turned them into public speaking, to where you would actually bring the knowledge to the people and make what is in essence a grassroots movement is really brilliant, you know. It’s really the best approach, I would think. So I just want to say thank you from all of us for doing that, both you, Wade Frazier, and Brian O’Leary.

Have you guys known each other for a long time?

WF:  Well, I met Brian in ’91 when I had to pick him up at the airport for a New Science conference. We drove right past Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and made jokes about Hangar 18, the Blue Room, and stuff, and so that’s when I met Brian. And then when he published Miracle in the Void in ’96, I bought about thirty-five copies of it.

Anyway, Brian, it quickly became evident to me... I’d already been through my salad days on the free energy front when I met Brian, and it became very clear that Brian was hip. We’ve had interactions over the years and he invited me to be on the New Energy Movement board back in 2003. We’re living on different continents right now, but as much as I can help Brian do what he does, I’m honored to do it.

BO’L:  I feel the same way about you, Wade, that some of your insight, and our journeys in parallel and together, that our interactions have been very important and that there’s been a lot of learning on my part from you, in giving this a broader context than just vetting this or that new energy concept, which people still ask me for. They still come to me and say: "Hey what do you think of this? What do you think of the air car? What do you think of this sonoluminescence device?" I’ve now gone away from that.

I’m more interested in combining politics with these concepts and also observing. Because I think, Wade, you helped radicalize me in some of the writings of Noam Chomsky and Ed Herman and so forth, that these are the kinds of guys that you would think could awaken to this, but no, they haven’t. And the same thing goes for Richard Heinberg.

So we keep trying to tell them: "Well, what about the possibility of this?" And now and then you’ll get this scathing response from the likes of Heinberg or Mike Ruppert or some other people that you’d think would embrace these things, but somehow are still very much in denial.

So it is a lonely road. And the people that I think will be taking the lead here will be brand new people, people that will come forward. And maybe this economic crisis is now providing a greater opportunity - it’s my hope anyway - for us to develop a new kind of leadership, systemically, and really start from scratch, and to make a change we can believe in [laughs] not let it just be empty slogans that respond to Wall Street and the military-industrial complex, which in turn responds to higher forces that are somehow suppressing these possibilities.

KC:  Thank you, Brian. That’s wonderful. What I’d like to do is bring back Bill here. But I also wanted to ask both of you if you could respond to what is it you think when you see things like, you know, the Space Shuttle and the Space Station and the way they’re dealing with this? What in essence is sending a tin can up into the air, you know? [laughs] I mean, what do you think when you see that they’re creating a new technology, supposedly planning to go to Mars and Moon? There’s a new mission underway. But what do you think about the technology they’re going to use to do these things, the fact that they’re still relying on this old technology?

BO’L:  You know, for one, I think that we’re living in the past. We’re living with past models that are falling apart. Ever since the Space Shuttle was first proposed I realized that NASA was falling apart because it was a bureaucratic invention, kind of a miasma. And the same with the Space Station, sort of a “Tinker-Toys” designed by aerospace companies to line their pockets.

Right now the technologies we’re using are drastically old. They’re simply not worthwhile. They’re in the past. It’s expensive. It pollutes the atmosphere. The Shuttle itself contributes to the hole in the ozone layer. Every launch is something like ten-to-fifteen billion dollars. We can’t afford that kind of stuff.

KC:  What do you think about the fact that they’re planning to power the new missions using nuclear?

BO’L:  Ah! That’s disaster! You know, if you get me going on nuclear... I was the nuclear energy advisor to Morris Udall’s Energy and Environment subcommittee of the US congress, and our committee pretty single-handedly stopped nuclear power in its tracks.

Any kind of nuclear technology, for anybody that looks at it, is highly dangerous. The long-lived radioactive waste products... we haven’t found a way to bury them. They have half-lives of tens of thousands of years. We’re polluting the Earth for our children and their children and for all of nature.

We’ve got tolet go of that technology one hundred percent. For nuclear technology to be used in any space application or any application on the Earth is yet another big danger-point.

It’s sort of like right now humans are terror-forming the Earth with various geo-engineering projects, whether it’s the development of nuclear technology, or chemtrails, or depleted uranium. These are all horrible, horrible projects.

And you see, we need to develop a new kind of advocacy, a new combination of truth movements that look at all of these things -- 9/11, the official story -- to kind of “pop a bubble” of the sacred myths of our time and to proceed onward with the kinds of new technologies that are clean and cheap, like free energy. We just have to do this! And people have to awaken. And right now, there aren’t very many of us that advocate that.

So to the degree your listeners can begin to embrace these things and to make the leap of faith, if you will, before really finding out in great detail that a number of myths need to be destroyed, we need some sort of process of truth and reconciliation. We need to radically change our systems, and Obama is now about .00001 percent of the way in doing any of that.

So it is disappointing, but we just keep having to prevail and get to the truth, which is always the first step toward realizing what we need to do.

KC:   Wade, what would you say about the fact that, you know, free energy exists? It’s been out there for, I don’t know, since at least the 1950s, wouldn’t you say? And yet they’re planning on powering the next mission to Mars and the Moon using nuclear fuel.

WF:  [laughs] Well you know, Brian is the astronaut [Kerry laughs] so I definitely defer to Brian’s opinion on those things. But it’s a thing where...

KC:   Right...

WF:  Actually, what Brian was just discussing, I have a short anecdote, which was: Dennis and I spoke at Department of Energy hearings back in 1997 when they were trying to do the, what’s called the WIPP, which was the low-intensity nuclear waste, not the place in Nevada where they still... it’s not even big enough to hold what they got today.

It was the thing where we approached them with neutralization technology to make nuclear waste, I mean, to neutralize it. And we were using Brown’s Gas. Long story there. But anyway, interestingly, we spoke there and we were located right next to this Savannah facility, like on Atomic Boulevard.

Anyway, Dennis and I spoke at a couple of hearings that day. And the interesting thing was that the most excited person at the hearing was the person who organized it. And at the lunch break, he actually follows us out to the car and gives us his card and stuff. And he said that we were the third group that attended these hearings to present a neutralization technology.

And he said, and I’ll never forget this, he said: "The people managing nuclear waste stand to make a ton of money doing this. If your answer doesn’t make them a ton of money, it won’t go anywhere." And then he said: "I’m an underling with no power, but I’ll see what I can do." [laughs] And of course nothing happened.

Anyway, so to me, yes, as Brian said, actually using nuclear fission to actually power these missions and stuff -- it’s nightmarish. It’s totally nightmarish. In fact, when I know that other, [laughs] totally clean, benign technologies exist and we’re using this, you know -- extremely primitive. As Einstein said: "Nuclear fission’s one hell of a way to boil water." So, it’s just really horrifying. It’s actually horrifying that we’re doing these things.

KC:  OK. Thank you so much, both of you guys, because that’s great to hear you say that and of course to hear an astronaut talk about the absurdity of using nuclear fuel to send missions out... and here we are in 2009. It just kind of boggles the mind. This has to be a fake, you know, front game, really, for what is really going on behind the scenes, you have to believe, in terms of NASA and what’s really going on there. But what I’ll do here is... Bill, can you come forward and sort of ask a few questions yourself? And I’ll translate if necessary.

BR:  [laughs] OK. Thank you. I just want to thank all of you, actually, because ever since I realized that my British James Bond shaken-but-not-stirred accent wasn’t totally understandable there, I’ve been sitting in the front row of this audience, hugely enjoying this conversation. And I want to thank you very much for that. And, Kerry, thanks a lot for stepping into the MC’s shoes here, because I know that you hadn’t prepared yourself quite as much for this interview as I had by reading Wade’s voluminous 1200-page website that I invite anyone to take a lucky dip into because it is encyclopedic.

Brian has already answered the final question that I wanted to put to you both, which was what changes does he really hope to see in his lifetime?

And what I would like to do is just to ask Wade briefly... if you can say something to that, that would inspire any young activists, because they are out there. We hear from them regularly, people who are on a steep learning curve, and a lot of energy, and who haven’t yet had that energy blunted. We know that they’re out there, and those people will find a way to listen to this conversation because it’s going to be very important to them.

And the opportunity here is to leave those people with something that will inspire and encourage them to pick up the torch which you two have both been carrying, and of course many others have been carrying this torch as well. What can you leave these young warriors with, to help them continue with what you’ve considered your life’s work to be?

WF:  Well thank you. What my message would be is this: "You are not pursuing something ephemeral. You’re pursuing things that are very real." OK? These are very real. This stuff’s real. It’s not a fantasy. It’s not some crazy conspiracy theory. This is very real stuff. And the potential of this is something that none of us can really fathom. We really can’t fathom what the potential of something like this is. And so, I don’t know... I mean, I don’t know... to me that seems worthwhile!

KC:  You know, Wade, your life itself and also Brian’s life, both of you are an inspiration in itself. I mean, your actual life experience - and sharing that - is very powerful. And I’m very happy that Bill was scientifically astute enough to be able to target and find you out because you’re not really in the mainstream at the moment. But you’re obviously a person that deserves great respect, as does Brian. And it’s really lovely to hear you speak about your background and all, so I just want to thank you very much, both of you.

BR:  I think this has been an excellent conversation. I want to thank you both for your time and your commitment. It’s a long rough road, I think, that you two guys have been on, and by speaking out so energetically and positively, I think that you will have done a lot to encourage an interest and enlighten some of these young activists who we know will be watching this -- because this torch must be picked up. It’s a torch that must grow more and more brightly.

I’m convinced now, Wade, having read a lot of your site, that free energy is such a huge issue, and also I should say having read several of Brian’s books as well. It goes everywhere. It goes into the environment. It goes into the economy. It goes into politics. It goes into control agendas. It goes into every aspect of society that we know about. This is why it’s really at the heart of everything, and of course this is why the activists do get stomped on so hard. But you’re still standing! And we acknowledge and salute you for that and thank you very much indeed for your inspiration to everyone who will be listening to this.

BO’L:  Thank you, Bill.

WF:  Thank you, Bill. And thank you for what you and Kerry are doing. It’s important work. Thanks for being there.

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