Today, the problem isn’t over-population, it’s over-consumption

[beren]

Steven you are absolutely right. Whole post is good.
But there is a catch with us humans now. We are hooked on drugs and drugs are everything that you have described in thread.

95% or even more WISH not to change their life style. Well they `d like clean earth and better life for all and rest but IT must include that they DO not abandon their SUV`s or seven bedroom houses (where actually three people lives)...

Core of the matter is soul and heart and they are corrupted.

You have read Bible ,I guess that by your posts . Or if you have not yet , you will find that this is EXACTLY the thing we are in war of. Our heart and our soul. If someone rules that ,he controls everything in this earth.

It is written there that that evil entity named Satan (adversary - hmmm to whom?!?) wishes nothing else but our soul and heart.
He does not need riches or gold or whatever physical , he needs our very essence. He ( or whatever he is - spirit,or any other entity) did very hard work and almost 100& of humanity is deceived.

We simply can not go forward into all light and beautiful future that we can create until we fix the core problem. That is ,where we wish our heart and soul to stand for. On and for the light or we choose darkness?

We can choose ,that is our gift. No matter what do we think about Creator of the universe or this or that. We reap what we sow and if we sow in dark we reap darkness...and you see the fruits of darkness we reaped throughout history.

I choose to sow in light... my wish is to help others ,at least one person on this ,earth to open their eyes and choose wisely...

I came a long journey in my life , a journey of hard days and hard nights in learning and opening my eyes , in learning to live ,to love .
I still have many things to learn and to grow in love ,wisdom and all other light fruits.
I wish that we all do that- to sow the seeds in light, love and wisdom.
I wish that we all have heart of love.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by beren

...95% or even more WISH not to change their life style. Well they `d like clean earth and better life for all and rest but IT must include that they DO not abandon their SUV`s or seven bedroom houses (where actually three people lives)...

Hello Beren. I know many are hooked to their lifestyle, but it's not the majority of the world. The world economic system is build upon a small 20% percent of the populace who consume 80% of the production. Maybe 95% of this 20% would not want to reduce their consummation rate... But, the 80% populace who produce most of what we consume is certainly open for equality.

Just to give you a very concrete example of what I am referring to. In 1989, I worked in Sulawesi, Indonesia in a region called Kolaka, in a village near the sea called Uluwolo. I was working for... human rights, under a development project, because Human rights at that time in Indonesia was rather taboo, I am referring to what happened in Timor. Anyway, the familly who welcomed me was coffee and cocoa farmer. They used to produce fairly large quantity of cocoa and coffee and once a month, trucks came to the village to take the crops to bring them to Kolaka. In a year living with them, if I drank 7 cups of coffee from their crops, I am being generous... Why? Because they had to sell it all. Every single grain of coffee was sold for a bit of money. Same for cocoa. They were living in a simple house in a beautiful valley near the sea. A paradise. They lacked of nothing, but their life was very very simple. This is the life of more than 5 billions of people on Earth. These people are the ones who are, by their lifestyle, an example to the world.

I know what I am saying is drastic and very hard to contemplate for some of us. But their is no other way if we want to obtain balance.

There is enough land for all of us to have a piece of land to live from it. There is enough technology for all to receive a decent life with the primary needs to be meet. There is enough resource for all to be healthy and in good shape. There is enough work for all to participate in the society. The lack is hidden behind an enormous greedy system based on profits and selfishness...

Originally Posted by viking

...A start would be to replace 'competetion' with 'co-operation' ... that would be a start to a new way...

Indeed, it is all about consciousness, this is where real change born... That is what's coming dear friend.

Originally Posted by J_rod7

...Steven, we need to get beyond this "elite versus the rest of us" stuff and 'drill-down' to what's going on in this world...

Well, "elite versus the rest of us" is part of whats going on in the world. You can not avoid it if you want to make a significant change in the society. If not, we will simply perpetrate the same old Paradigm with new players as Elite...

For this, we should find some 'common ground' to work from to explore the problems. Our perceptions are almost 'polar-opposites', and the Truth is somewhere in the middle. First, do we really understand what is meant by "Creation?" This is an easy concept, once proper 'terms' are defined. This subject leads us to understand the SOVEREIGNTY of EVERY INDIVIDUAL HUMAN. We are given to understand Creation...

I agree that we need "common ground", but I am not buying the Billy Meir version of Creation. I do not rely on "others" to define my understanding of Creation, I simply rely on the spirit in me. I hope you would do the same and leave this "guru" behind for a time. Nevertheless, I find a lot of wisdom in what you have written.

Tell me, what is Creation from your heart's point of view?

Namaste, Steven

[J_rod7]

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Hi Steven,

I'm going to write "short and simple" at this time. My wife just left for two weeks to go stay with her niece in another state, which is the daughter of her dying sister - in and out of Hospitals and Hospice - are living. She is keeping me updated now with daily phone calls. Her Sister, now in her 80s, was also a good friend of mine, along with all the rest of my wife's family, when we also lived there (30-26-yrs ago). Everyone there is on a 'Death watch', giving mutual comfort as is natural in such situations. I have several appointments with my doctors and Oncologists at the Tampa VA Hospital, or otherwise I would also be there with her and the family.

Personally, the Creation is the source of my Being, and the source of my inspiration in Nature.

The Creation is far above all the 'gods' which came to Earth (from the various different Stars) to impose their will on various segments of Humanity. These blinded the minds of the people, enslaved them to produce gold and treasures for them, and taught the Humans the ways of War to battle the Humans under the control of the other 'gods.'

Far worse are all the 'gods' invented in the minds of those which established the various religions to further control the Human 'masses', otherwise known as the 'sheeple.' The wort of all is the unholy roman Catholick chirch which slaughtered more innocent Humans in fires &c during 'the Inquisitions' than ever did the Nazis, which, by the way: look at who's now the most-high unholy pope.

Now then, I have been a long-time supporter and reader of Project Camelot, ... Long before Project Avalon was ever an idea. If you would like to see the large numbers of 'insiders' (interviewed by Bill and Kerry over the years) which consider the Overpopulation to be THE priority issue, simply go on over to Camelot and type overpopulation into the 'search' box. Then read what they each has to say on the subject (inter-woven into their full interviews).

After all my own 'running around in circles' yesterday and today, I feel like I've been pulled through a knothole, it's now 2:30 in the morning, an gotta get some rest. So much for 'short nand simple,' G'nite, Good day, or whatever it is.

Namaste

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[Steven]

Originally Posted by J_rod7

...Personally, the Creation is the source of my Being, and the source of my inspiration in Nature...

The Creation is far above all the 'gods' which came to Earth (from the various different Stars) to impose their will on various segments of Humanity. These blinded the minds of the people, enslaved them to produce gold and treasures for them, and taught the Humans the ways of War to battle the Humans under the control of the other 'gods.'...

I like your personal view on Creation.

Now then, I have been a long-time supporter and reader of Project Camelot, ... Long before Project Avalon was ever an idea. If you would like to see the large numbers of 'insiders' (interviewed by Bill and Kerry over the years) which consider the Overpopulation to be THE priority issue, simply go on over to Camelot and type overpopulation into the 'search' box. Then read what they each has to say on the subject (inter-woven into their full interviews)...

I disagree with the idea of overpopulation even if it comes from camelot whistleblowers. Here is a careful study resume which bring the problem in perspective:

Quotes:
'Who most affects the environment? According to one estimate, a person in the U.S. has 50 times more adverse impact than someone in Bangladesh. An American, on the average, consumes 50 times as much steel and 300 times as much plastic as someone in India. When one examines consumption rather than just population, the environmental problem of scarcity looks very different.'

Here the whole text: http://www1.umn.edu/ships/ethics/consume.htm

Just take the population of India, which is enourmous, almost 5 times the U.S. population. If you only look at population, one would say, India has too many people. But if you also consider the consumption, U.S. consume 50 times more steel and 300 times more plastic with 5 times less people!!! How one can avoid this data?

The burden should NOT be only on the poor countries shoulders, once again, because they are more populated, because when you talk about overpopulation, India/China/Asian countries and Africa are the ones pointed at. It is also imperative that northern rich countries take an objective look at their own behaviors in this imposed system...

And by the way, who are these people saying there is an overpopulation problem, all northern poeple... It is way more easy to put the blame on someone else rather than taking responsibility on the global aspect of the problem.

Namaste, Steven

[housemouse2]

I saw a presentation on the disappearing middle class in America not long ago. I cannot recall the lady's name that did the presentation but is on the web.

The presentation was done by a Harvard professor who merely crunched numbers and compared a 4 person family from 40 years ago to today. What she found to my surprise was not "over consumption" but rather the cost of living had surpasses the rate of inflation even with 2 income homes of today.

Housing had increased 75% past the rate of inflation alone.

The average male now makes 5% less a year than the average male did 40 years ago.

Cost of food was interesting: We buy less meat than our parents did but we do buy more pasta. We also rely on grocery stores when in the past we had more family farms.

transportation: We do have more cars per familily today but also keep them longer than they did 40 years ago.

Insurance has increased 50% past the rate of inflation.

Education is also different now. Public schools have gone up 50% past the rate of inflation. But more concerning is college which has shot up 400% past the rate of inflation. And due to the abundance of degrees and lack of jobs...college is now a waste of an investment.

[beren]

Originally Posted by Steven

Hello Beren. I know many are hooked to their lifestyle, but it's not the majority of the world. The world economic system is build upon a small 20% percent of the populace who consume 80% of the production. Maybe 95% of this 20% would not want to reduce their consummation rate... But, the 80% populace who produce most of what we consume is certainly open for equality.



Namaste, Steven

Hey Steven!

I agree with you. But in the middle of our mutually painted picture here bumps human greed. Say if you give all other 5 or more billion people same means and choices as the first 1 or more billion that live kinda recklessly in the mildest way or spending heavily and waste all around them ,will they still wish to live decent ,humble and very simple life?

I doubt it.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by beren

Hey Steven!

I agree with you. But in the middle of our mutually painted picture here bumps human greed. Say if you give all other 5 or more billion people same means and choices as the first 1 or more billion that live kinda recklessly in the mildest way or spending heavily and waste all around them ,will they still wish to live decent ,humble and very simple life?

I doubt it.

If the system would stay the same, of course it could not do a difference. The economical system in place is based on consumption. If we do not answer to this foundamental problem first and simply offer to the poeple of the southern countries the same power of buying that we have in the north, they will go shopping until the last cents. We do not do better, worse, we borrow when the last cent is spent.

What I think would be an alternative is an economical system based on harmony with nature. It might look funny at first glance, but ultimatly, there is no other better choice, simply because what we consume comes from nature.

Let me give you an example. Actually, it is hard for any country in the world, to buy locally. Almost anything comes from outside, especially China. What a waste of energy to transport all these products. 'Made in China' to me means a sacrifice from the chinese poeple to enrich already rich people, cutting drastically the work charge for all other contries in the world. As template to produce cheap quality products that will last a very short time and will need to be bought again and again... That is the root of the problem with waste.

If only we, as a race, answer to this problem we will find solution. It is already happening in many countries. It is slow because of the tremendous inertia created by World Organisations like the World Trade Organisation. I do not beleive 'they' will care to create such a change, we got to get into the popular movement when it passes by and 'they' will have no other choice but to come along.

Namaste, Steven

[J_rod7]

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Greetings to all,

This came to me in an email, the linx do not seem transfer >>>

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Having trouble viewing this email? Click here
Hooked on Growth: Help for an intoxicated society!

The UK Guardian published a particularly poignant column by George Monbiot in December 2009 - This is bigger than climate change. It is a battle to redefine humanity. I'll share the very essence of it here, but please be sure you read the entire column. You will not regret it.

While economies grow, social justice is unnecessary, as lives can be improved without redistribution. While economies grow, people need not confront their elites. While economies grow, we can keep buying our way out of trouble. But, like the bankers, we stave off trouble today only by multiplying it tomorrow. Through economic growth we are borrowing time at punitive rates of interest.

Even if we manage to prevent climate breakdown, growth means that it's only a matter of time before we hit a new constraint, which demands a new global response: oil, water, phosphate, soil. We will lurch from crisis to existential crisis unless we address the underlying cause: perpetual growth cannot be accommodated on a finite planet.

This sums up why Dave Gardner's documentary, Hooked on Growth: Our Misguided Quest for Prosperity, is so important. In Hooked on Growth, Dave is holding up a mirror and waking us from our drunken stupor. Yes, our society is drunk on growth, and it is time for an intervention.

I'm writing to remind you that whatever noble cause you're working on, Dave has your back. His film draws a laser-like focus on the root cause of nearly every problem we're trying to rectify. We all need to help Dave raise the funds to finish the film and build the network to organize screenings. Dave tells me he will complete Hooked on Growth in 2010, with our help.

If you haven't yet encouraged everyone in your network to join the grassroots support network for this film; if you haven't kicked in a tax-deductible contribution, it's not too late. But as Monbiot wrote, "we are borrowing time at punitive rates of interest." The clock is ticking.

Here are the links you need to help:

Hooked on Growth Trailer & Info.
Make a Tax-Deductible Contribution
Subscribe to E-mail Updates
Extended Preview/Discussion with Filmmaker
Facebook Page
Twitter
Join Our Collaborators & Volunteers Network
Contact Dave
Photos, Graphics & Description to Help You Publicize the Film

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So the question arises = How do we encourage Humans to consume less or to procreate less , which will have the greatest impact going forward into the future of life on this Earth>

In Peace =Salome = Namaste

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[Humble Janitor]

Why are we so fixated on "problems"? The only problem is that we have a power structure that despises people and will do anything to put these thoughts into our heads.

[Steven]

Thank you J-Rod7 for this letter. I am in agreement with the absurdity of continual growth. It is totally illogical to pursue continuous growth in a definite world. And if it means that a compromise between conscientious limited birth and production/consumption reduction plus efficient waste management would bring forth harmony with nature, then we have a vision, bearer of a true hope. But the solution is certainly in a shift in consciousness for everyone walking on Earth. Until this day, we may still struggle in between half-solution.

On the other hand, it is easy to fall into the trap of scientific "evidence". The trust we put into these "evidence" shroud the faith we should keep in Creation. It is always good to remember, especially in dire times, that Nature is a sentient, caring living and she considers each of us as a child. When you look at history, you always find a time where Nature provided the means for humanity to stay. Just before the last Ice Age, humanity learned the use of fire...

Namaste, Steven

[Steven]

The dept

In my opinion, the dept is directly link with the root of the problem. Because the dept grows continuously, the concept of national growth has all its reason to exist. We got to produce more because we are more in dept... What an abominable pattern. The economical concept of dept serves only one purpose, to assure a position of strength from the loaner. If the loaner has already this advantage worldwide since centuries, it assures a near total control over the masses. If a dept could be ruled itself, by a more ethical way, it wouldn’t reach the level of economical “slavery” that causes so many problems to the majority of humanity plus an aggressive impact on Earth’s life. A simple example to improve how the mechanism of the dept could be by limiting the amount of times the original capital has been already paid.

The ethical and acceptable reason why interest is included in the deal is to make profits. Not to enslave. It also forces the borrower to pay back in due time. The reality is that interest becomes the tool to maintain a relationship of dependence between the loaner and the borrower. This relationship has all the element of a victim consciousness in which freedom is oppressed in favor of the power of one over another. If this practice last for too long, the progressive influence of a few becomes worldwide and controls the life of millions of people, this is our situation after more than 500 years of Western financial activities.

Pay it twice, not more...

If we limit this concept in a more ethical way, after the initial capital would have been paid twice, no matter if there’s still an amount of the dept left, the transaction would become completed, considering the loaner has made enough profit. The financial activities would be still viable, but reduced to lesser impact in our life.

It is unacceptable to be continuously ruled by economical powers. Life is much more than economy alone and much has been put aside for the profit of this gluttonous human activity. When you look at countries in the world, the very large majority of them are in dept. Many have already paid several times the initial capital, some of them up to more than ten times! And for an increasing number, it becomes clearer that the dept will never be paid...

We should review this activity with a new perspective, from nature. Does Earth’s nature enslave itself? Why is this behavior still ongoing in our society and almost never questioned? Are we unaware? Do we lack trust in ourselves and afraid to change the economical rules? Do we feel not united enough to create a change?

A waste of human work

When our taxes go into a hole without bottom, we should wake up and say enough of this masquerade. Imagine all the human energy put into this waste, just to make a few richer and more influential over the population. Money from taxes = human energy. All this energy could be put into solution to solve our environment impact on nature. Of course, we can come out with “realistic” view saying; there is nothing we can do about it because we lack unity. Or that everyone disagrees on details and forgets the more important things to do first. Or that we do not have the leadership to bring it forward. Views all understandable, but we got to keep the faith alive if we want to produce a change. Because changes will not come from an effort of the will, nor an armed revolution, but from a shift in consciousness. So, we got to stay focus on our goal. Be realist, ask for the impossible!

Namaste, Steven

[Steven]

Originally Posted by Humble Janitor

Why are we so fixated on "problems"? The only problem is that we have a power structure that despises people and will do anything to put these thoughts into our heads.

I agree Humble, but balance in all things. The thread is about presenting a problem under another perspective. Instead of saying humanity is the problem (overpopulation), it says human behavior is the problem (overconsumption). And the solutions for both option are quite different. Instead of talking about birth control and depopulation, it talks about reviewing completely our economical system to adapt it to Nature. Which is a totally New Paradigm...

Namaste, Steven

[Frank Samuel]

Hi Steven while I do agree that Humans tend to over consume. We do have the resources to feed twice the amount of people of this Earth. Learning to create nutritionist foods they do not have to be completely natural as long as they are nutritionist. For example my two youngest children drink powder milk, a lot cheaper than Cow milk . They are very healthy. Our concepts about nutrition, energy and the use of living spaces needs to change. Recently in India a new car came into the market that runs on compressed air call the Nano car. This car is 4x cheaper than the average car in the markets today and it runs on compressed air. Learning to create cheaper more effective technologies, food sources, living spaces you name it is all in the way we approach a problem. Is too convenient for the ptw to try and justify population and resources control to lower the population rate by any means necessary . They are quickly loosing control of the general populace as many people are learning to use their resources, shopping smarter , in general relearning how to live a simpler healthier life and in the process trying to help our neighboring countries to do the same. We can learn from many poor countries about how to use everything in nature as sustenance, and how to live in Harmony with our surroundings. Do we really need the fast cars the large houses and all of the toys and expensive foods that we enjoy or could we do with less. So while I agree with you it is our misconceptions about what our lives on this planet should be in terms of how we coexist with one another and how we learn to share our lives and resources with one another, there's a lot of room for improvement in this area and a lot of innovative solutions to resolve our problems from every corner of the globe there are futurist inventors who already have incredible solutions to the problems we are facing today, like I said while we let these dummies in the political arena run our lives the solutions are found elsewhere with the common folks who are implementing these solutions already.. I am looking forward to our future and being a part of the innovative solutions to create a world that could coexist in Harmony and Balance with one another.

[tintagelcave]

http://www.fritzhaeg.com/webvideo/ee08-lenape-web.mov

Hi there, here's a link to a video with the natural history and indiginous folk of Manhattan, by Fritz Haeg, an artist and designer, who initiated the edible landscape concept. There's lots of inspirational ideas on his website and he just started, since childhood, from working on designing a world around him as he dreamed it should be. Isn't that great? I met Fritz in my 3-D garden in the park near my home, in a meeting on creating animal housing in there.
This picture is the center of that garden, all used material, recycled.

Groenkapel 05-2008 (13).jpg


There's great value in growing your own food and join hands in a community, I think. Even sitting in nature, a special spot, every day, being aware and awake, while sungazing or fairies gazing........getting to know nature, is a beautiful healing experience, even for 15 minutes a day.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by Frank Samuel

...We can learn from many poor countries about how to use everything in nature as sustenance, and how to live in Harmony with our surroundings. Do we really need the fast cars the large houses and all of the toys and expensive foods that we enjoy or could we do with less. So while I agree with you it is our misconceptions about what our lives on this planet should be in terms of how we coexist with one another and how we learn to share our lives and resources with one another, there's a lot of room for improvement in this area and a lot of innovative solutions to resolve our problems from every corner of the globe there are futurist inventors who already have incredible solutions to the problems we are facing today...

Hello Frank. I totally agree with your whole post. I agree that the post have not concentrate its focus on alternate means to use Earth's resources, it was more a response versus the overpopulation idea. There is indeed many awesome alternative to improve the way we produce and consume. In Canada, we are lucky to count on David Suzuki. This guy proposed about 20 years ago, to use all the space available on the top of city's buildings to transform them into garden. From a plane view, a city would look like a green garden.

The solutions are all there already, it is our will (I'm talking globally) that is not there yet.

Originally Posted by tintagelcave

...Hi there, here's a link to a video with the natural history and indiginous folk of Manhattan, by Fritz Haeg, an artist and designer, who initiated the edible landscape concept. There's lots of inspirational ideas on his website and he just started, since childhood, from working on designing a world around him as he dreamed it should be. Isn't that great? I met Fritz in my 3-D garden in the park near my home, in a meeting on creating animal housing in there.

Thank you so much tintagelcave for your sharing. I agree 100%. The problem is not us, human, but our behavior. Like a child in a daycare, it can be improved to a better harmony...

Namaste, Steven