So very few people on avalon

[Xhaosis]

Well, there really is not much to talk about on this forum...


You can only go on and on about preparedness for so long.

Sooner or later you get your alpha members, and it turns into a strange mindless challenge of people's beleif's.

I suggest more topics to talk about.

I would like a poetry section or a section where members can express other things, perhaps a debate section, so we can have debates, and learn. Perhaps a section where we can post pictures of odd things we see, news or what not. Making Avalon a more dynamic message board. I try to come on as much as I can, do I agree with every mind I meet here, no, yet instead of posting hey your a moron, I just do not post on their thread. Actually there are some threads here that actually scare me, as far as what people think and beleive, but that does not mean I am not brave enough to try to understand how, or why or for what reason they beleive such a notion. Anyhow its not the quantitiy of the product we produce its the quality...

PEACE

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Xhaosis

I would like a poetry section or a section where members can express other things, perhaps a debate section, so we can have debates, and learn. Perhaps a section where we can post pictures of odd things we see, news or what not. Making Avalon a more dynamic message board. I try to come on as much as I can, do I agree with every mind I meet here, no, yet instead of posting hey your a moron, I just do not post on their thread. Actually there are some threads here that actually scare me, as far as what people think and beleive, but that does not mean I am not brave enough to try to understand how, or why or for what reason they beleive such a notion. Anyhow its not the quantitiy of the product we produce its the quality...

Xhaosis, I have noted your suggestions and will post them to the moderator brainstorming areas. In fact, we may start a "Suggestion Box" thread - we just need a little time to sort our way through the humongous task of "improving Avalon."

Karen

[Frank Samuel]

Somebody said that people move on to other sites what a relief, I thought they all got rapture and became food for the reptilians.
Well maybe one of the doom and gloom predictions became true for them.
Who knows why people leave, too much positivity can be contagious, why be happy if you could be gloomy. Just kidding folks.

[Dean Plejaren]

A few people were banned because of offensive attitudes

Hey Karen,
You had a meeting about how to keep on purpose? Feel free to share the main points with everyone on the forum who are part of it.....

It depends how wise you are. If banning people is the answer to offensive attitudes (that one interprets as offensive) it's not dealing with things but making them worse. Mainly because their attitude may not be what is offensive at all so it creates another problem instead of the solution. It may be the other person who is offensive by thinking they are superior and interpreting it as bad. People have the right to decide things. Responsibility for not being censored is everyones problem. The purpose of Avalon is not in the direction of it's defined purpose otherwise a community would be in the works that we could all participate in. There would be planning and a clearly defined progression happening that we can all track. If others express observations or judgments are labeled offensive. This is getting on thin ice in terms of covering up what others say and their own experiences. It prevents positive growth when you censor no matter what the excuse is.

So it's not attacking or accusing or an attitude that is a problem. Blaming individuals, is not kool. Not allowing them to speak, is not effective. The issue is sticking to the defined purpose of the forum. Which I see is offtrack at the moment. Maybe re-define it's purpose or stop thinking it is the purpose it advertises.

You can't stop people arguing forcefully without a regression, that is part of the process of resolving present frictions. Forcefully banning average people is going backwards. You can say they deserve to be banned and it was all correct but I wasn't born yesterday.

P.S
When you own a site that doesn't mean you own the people. Nor does it mean they are in your territory to order them as you please. This is what causes illusions that make you think certain people are above the rule of other people. It's not a pyramid. You strip people of their right to be themself.

Yes I have already got a ban as a warning for having this 'attitude' which I think is entirely offensive in itself.

I know that some people are comfortable thinking things are different without the truth upsetting them and their daily log on experience. For that I am sorry. I'd rather upset them than let others paint a picture that is not the true situation.

[Myplanet2]

I think the people most likely to find themselves invited to leave, are those who could care less whether they upset or offend others.

Any point which can be made, can be made without trampling others feelings.

There are lots of very sensitive people here, who have largely put most confrontationally polarized interactions behind them.

Many have said that proximity to this careless behaviour is a deal breaker in whether they are able to participate here or not, and unfortunately, we've lost a great many valued members.

An example would be where a poster tells another he's gotten something wrong, and then adds a completely unnecessary "as usual".

That kind of petulant behaviour can grow legs and walk away, IMO.

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

Hey Karen,
You had a meeting about how to keep on purpose? Feel free to share the main points with everyone on the forum who are part of it.....

No, that was not the topic of this meeting, though it might be in some future meeting. Have you ever run a discussion board of this size with its initial growth rate? Have you ever had 100 lies proclaimed about yourself and your mission and your intents?

If you think a handful or two of banned members in a forum with over 5200 people is a big deal, think about this one ... the attrition rate of the moderators is astronomical. The work load is crushing, for some the mountain of abuse and lies about the mod team and owners simply becomes intolerable. Considerable meeting time was spent getting all the new mods on the same page, so some of the past problems can be avoided in the future. If there is a problem on the forum, we all want to come up with the best solutions, none of which of course, will please everyone. I assure everyone of this -- the mods are not the power tripping ogres that a handful think we are. We are just everyday people who have volunteered our time to help out. None of us are perfect and we all have a flaw or two or maybe even three. Very few of the previous batch of mods remain. So its a new day!

I'd say 50% of it was about technical issues connected to using vBulletin. Almost every answer about changes we wanted was "no this program cannot do that." And I asked a lot of questions about all the crazy things people are writing and spreading around. No, George Green has not funded Kerry and Bill. It has all been their own money they spent to provide this information to people for free, and a small portion of small donations. They will probably make a section and answer all these types of lies about them themselves. Dean we are here for the truth and you are posting some erroneous assumptions and calling them truth.

Here's a fact: Many members are complaining to us about your swastika avatar - as we all have various levels of "truth" knowing. I happened to read the thread about what the true meaning of that symbol is - if I remember correctly, it is unity. I think it would be a great idea if you could put some explanation in your sig file, something clever or witty or with a real stickem point. You do ask some good questions. Keep advocating for the truth, but be careful about those assumptions you make.

To UNITY!
To the TRUTH!
Karen

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

Hey Karen,
You had a meeting about how to keep on purpose? Feel free to share the main points with everyone on the forum who are part of it.....

Keeping "on purpose" is different from stating your purpose to a new moderating team. What struck me most about what Bill has said is that he would like to see a new "forum paradigm." He wants to see less harsh statements from the moderators to the out of alignment members. The new consciousness is a softer, more gentle, less combative and less argumentative attitude. It's a new day. It's a new moderating team, with new goals and new agreements. Could you please back off the public mod bashing. If you have a complaint about any future moderator actions, Private Message me or one of the others and let us discuss it with you. I will keep requesting that we all think about dropping old paradigm communication styles while you (plural) are abiding in Kerry and Bill's internet gathering place. I don't agree with you that this should be a free-for-all place where some members ignore the forum guidelines.

And I just saw your new post. We talked about how we can move a thread to the section they belong in, and leave a place marker directing people to the new location. We send the original poster a private message about the move, and we hope a place marker will help. From this point on we hope to limit the deleting of posts and I am advocating this be minimized for the very reasons you express. I assure you we are listening, yet we do have FORUM GUIDELINES - http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/a...ent.php?f=&a=6.

Again this is a new team with new input and a new vision. From this day forward give us chance - complain to us of future events, not of the past we've hashed over a zillion times. Please go make a positive contribution to some other thread. Please help guide the forum members to stick with the the purpose. You know - unity. What are we doing right? Anything?

To keep on purpose!
Karen

[Dean Plejaren]

Keeping "on purpose" is different from stating your purpose to a new moderating team. What struck me most about what Bill has said is that he would like to see a new "forum paradigm." He wants to see less harsh statements from the moderators to the out of alignment members. The new consciousness is a softer, more gentle, less combative and less argumentative attitude. It's a new day. It's a new moderating team, with new goals and new agreements. Could you please back off the public mod bashing.

Startling after you say that I'm faced with back off the mod bashing. If it is a new day and a new paradigm. Why do I still feel like I did something wrong and you are asking me to not do something. Why do you say I am mod bashing? Because I thought that some moderation was bias recently....Am I allowed to have that thought without being seen as abusive? If not I don't think that is fair. I have good reason to judge it as bias. But yeah I will move on now I was just answering the question from someone.

The out of alignment members? Well that is for everyone to judge. Some people have unusual choices that are different to others. I see them as individuals and my paradigm is completely different to yours. I support co-operating but would not mistake difference of opinion with conflict.

Thanks for adding your bit and doing the best you can. It's not that I don't appreciate good intentions I would rather not praise people.

[Myplanet2]

Since you asked, Dean, I believe you have made a couple of assumptions which are incorrect in this thread.

One is that this place is public. It is not. you had to apply and be accepted. It's a private place, belonging to Bill and Kerry. What they wish it to be, is what it will be. Those who find they can't agree with their purpose and mission statement for this forum are welcome to find a more suitable playground.

Second is the notion of free speech on this forum. The desire of both owners and the mod team, is that free speech be the reality here. But it's not a right. It's a privilege, which exists within the rules, guidelines, and spirit and purpose under which this forum was created.

A member here simply does not have the right to treat other members in a disrespectful, discourteous manner.

Your freedom to leave far surpasses your freedom to say whatever you like, regardless of the effect that will create on other more congenial members.

I'm not saying I think you should leave or don't belong here. I've seen lots of your posts pushing for getting into action on some sort of plan. Sounds like you're action oriented. What are you doing in that regard? Action oriented people are going to see their person stock rise in the near future, if I'm not mistaken. Action needs a channel.

[Dean Plejaren]

Originally Posted by Myplanet2

Since you asked, Dean, I believe you have made a couple of assumptions which are incorrect in this thread.

One is that this place is public. It is not. you had to apply and be accepted. It's a private place, belonging to Bill and Kerry. What they wish it to be, is what it will be. Those who find they can't agree with their purpose and mission statement for this forum are welcome to find a more suitable playground.

Second is the notion of free speech on this forum. The desire of both owners and the mod team, is that free speech be the reality here. But it's not a right. It's a privilege, which exists within the rules, guidelines, and spirit and purpose under which this forum was created.

A member here simply does not have the right to treat other members in a disrespectful, discourteous manner.

Your freedom to leave far surpasses your freedom to say whatever you like, regardless of the effect that will create on other more congenial members.

I'm not saying I think you should leave or don't belong here. I've seen lots of your posts pushing for getting into action on some sort of plan. Sounds like you're action oriented. What are you doing in that regard? Action oriented people are going to see their person stock rise in the near future, if I'm not mistaken. Action needs a channel.

Not a public place. Private. Free speech not seen as a right but a privilege here. Limited within the bounds of the desires of the private owners on the internet space who claim everything within that space as their own.

This is not my paradigm or something I will ever agree on. but I will agree it is there right to choose that paradigm for themself. Even if I did not agree the laws of nature dictate them the power to ban me. However it does not empower people this paradigm so I conclude it is immoral. I am here because I am myself, my rights is never a privilege or property of another person.

Since I don't agree with this paradigm they can either let me be myself or ban me. I respect people but I am going to think for myself what is best. If others did the same we would not have globalization. This was not an assumption I made it was a conscious decision to know and follow what is the more effective and empowering system of operation in a forum.

Originally Posted by Anchor

You have said elsewhere that you are going to start your own unmoderated forum? Were is it?

http://plejaren.heavenforum.com/

[Myplanet2]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

Not a public place. Private. Free speech not seen as a right but a privilege here. Limited within the bounds of the desires of the private owners on the internet space who claim everything within that space as their own.

This is not my paradigm or something I will ever agree on. but I will agree it is there right to choose that paradigm for themself. Even if I did not agree the laws of nature dictate them the power to ban me. However it does not empower people this paradigm so I conclude it is immoral. I am here because I am myself, my rights is never a privilege or property of another person.

Since I don't agree with this paradigm they can either let me be myself or ban me. I respect people but I am going to think for myself what is best. If others did the same we would not have globalization. This was not an assumption I made it was a conscious decision to know and follow what is the more effective and empowering system of operation in a forum.



http://plejaren.heavenforum.com/

I have a lot of respect for someone who can and does think for themselves. I also have a lot of respect for someone who places more value on their integrity than they do their safety or convenience.

You have these Dean, so I respect you.

But I disagree with your statement that this forums policies are disempowering. The policies exist to protect the many, from the individuals who place what they want personally, above the rights of others to not have that individual "act out" if that's what they feel like doing.

Kerry said just today that (paraphrase here) the rules are not to take precedence over the individual pursuit of truth. And that she didn't want the Mods here to be like traffic cops.

The mods don't want to be reduced to that kind of activities either.

The line to keep from crossing, is the one where the many are made to hear the complaints of the one or the few. It just turns the place thick with unpleasant vibrations, if that's the terminology you'd care to use.

The only rights of yours anyone here is interested in infringing, is your perceived right to say whatever you want, no matter what that does to others. You are responsible for the effects you create on others.

The mods will protect the members here from self serving activities which fall outside the rules, and cause others distress. They won't have much choice.

'nough said.

[Dean Plejaren]

The policies exist to protect the many, from the individuals who place what they want personally, above the rights of others to not have that individual "act out" if that's what they feel like doing.

But notice something when you do this......Remember the policies of anti-terrorism laws? What does it end up doing?

How do you protect people? By putting the power in the hands of a few people?

I am not trying to argue this is just open discussion about things. It's my view that the foundation of something will determine how strong it will be.

All that Avalon is for I am supporting, but this is just how I think. I'm not demanding anything just being transparent about how I think.

[Carol]

Hi Dean. I hardly think anyone is ever going to stop you from having or expressing your opinion.

Mods respond to the complaints of other members toward a particular member whom they think are taking advantage of, or just plain don't follow the guidelines. In fact, over 90 percent of mods taking any action is complaint driven by the members themselves.

I hope this clarifies some of the confusion that may have popped up from time to time.

As for missing threads, I repeatedly stated that anyone sending me the name of a thread that is being reviewed that they wish to see sooner, as compared to later. just needs to PM me and I will personally handle it ASAP.

[Dean Plejaren]

over 90 percent of mods taking any action is complaint driven by the members themselves.

It does not clarify even more questions come to mind.....But I will leave the issue alone I don't want to harass.

Nice of you to offer getting any missing threads back if they need any but very confusing.

I'll save the hassle of questioning it like an investigation, it's not cleared up but I don't want to harass. Nothing the mods said have given me any reason to think it's not exactly how I said from the beginning of this thread.

The conclusion is I never agree or can understand the clean up incident but are moving on now without dwelling on it.

[Dean Plejaren]

One more thing. I think it is a realistic danger that opinions will be suppressed under any structure of centralized power that considers people and things as privately owned.

[dayzero]

!

[Dean Plejaren]

A few things are clear that you can't cover up and that is what I already stated above.
Jenny, it's not me that is in the delusion it's clear that moderation is power that is used in discernment it's not some illusion that people can be ordered around by the moderators influence. Are the Moderators a reflection of 5000 or so members? No they are the reflection of the owners who accepted them. The structure of it is clear so you can't pretend centralization isn't capable of a function of control. That is just laws of nature not me in a delusion. If I felt ordered around or powerless without knowing why would I disagree and say what is the truth. I am not doing anything to myself other than saying what is. That is not stripping me of anything it's making myself clear in relation to what is mistaken.

If we had no rules the forum would degenerate into total chaos.

It's not the rules that are upholding things, it's peoples interpretation and implementation of them. When you let people think for themself and make up their own rules to lead themself it leaves less room for mistakes. You are incorrect things degenerate into chaos. That only happens when people are not taking responsibility for themself. That isn't suppose to be the job of one or two people. There is a serious misconception going on here that is causing major problems. The source of division negativity and fear is ever more clear.

Whatever the intention is, centralization restricts people to the minds of a few and what they allow. When you get to the amount of people coming to this forum it really begins to effect peoples ability to communicate believe it or not that is how it works.

What I know is true is what I know. I can't conform and pretend something is not happening when it is. The way you handle these problems that you moderators constantly try to solve is you eliminate rules and allow diversity rather than conforming to specific policies that only foster what you are trying to eliminate. Which is a lack of leadership in people and a lack of allowing them to take responsibility. That is the core of all the problems no matter what you want to decide.

And would it go into chaos? Maybe at first it would seem to collapse because you have already structured it that way. In this society people do not think for themself for so long that they are now dependent and not capable of making proper decisions. They are not critical thinking because what has being taken away? The freedom to take responsibility for themself and others without some mediator enforcing conduct. This enforcement is the cause of the problems not the solution. how do I know that because its simple. Written rules are restrictions that do not justify or solve the problems that they would claim to be solving. The nature of reality dictates any rules are nothing more than extra obstructions. The only thing that can work is unity and co-operation for the empowerment of the individual not centralization of decisions.

Since I don't agree with the entire structure of it maybe you should ban me. I'm not sure what you should do if I was in that position I would listen to me and follow what works. All I know is what I said is right. Anything else is not my problem.

[Xhaosis]

Even here LAWS must be followed...


Usually people who have a problem following the laws, have a problem with themselves. Almost always they enjoy sharing their problems with those who will listen.. Or pretend to listen.. Their is confusion between freedom and liberty... Need I say more..

[Jenny]

Hi Dean,

I understand where you come from and I admit I do have mod powers.

And you don't.

BUT;

I live in various circumstances and situations where people can tell me what to do.
I don't care.

I can be who I am everywhere, whatever the rules OR laws are.

I act from a level of sovereignty and autonomy and I always have a choice.
I can change myself. Not you. You can change yourself, I cannot.

I choose to be here and to be a mod.

What is your choice?

[Dean Plejaren]

You know my choice it's that the only "laws" I follow is the law of nature. Since it is the only real law I have no problem following it and it would be unwise not to. I have a problem following something that doesn't work because I know it will be problematic. That's why I was pointing out why something doesn't work and why I don't follow it.

This is the point of why the bans and clean up is bias. The only way to solve it is what you see as the problem. People who seen what happened agree with me and those banned know they were not treated in a balanced way. So it's trivial what you want to justify it as when I have already explained the entire thing of why it's unbalanced and doesn't work.


...and does this mean I want to complain? No....It just means I'm interested enough in the forum at this time to comment what I am observing. My focus is on it because of the massive effects it has on everyone that come here. Negativity and complaining is totally different this is something logical which I have thought about carefully for the benefit of everyone in order to explain it. It deserves more thought you brush it off as if it wasn't important in defensive mode yet this is the difference between harmony and suffering. Not just here but everywhere on the planet.

P.S
I made it clear in pm the guidelines are not binding me, I made a thread why they don't bind me. Clearly I am stating I don't agree to comply with guidelines for said reasons as a binding contract only to uphold respect to other people as I would do on my own without the guidelines anyway. I have made it clear I do not consider this private property or that my rights are a privilege given to me under certain condition of someone else. I have no concept of being owned with conditions that I have to comply with.

Yet there is no ban up to this point because why? Because there was some degree of non mindless thinking that I was a sensible person and could respect people. Yet according to the guidelines I should be banned because I don't agree that they bind me to comply. So what is going on with it? You have to make a clear distinct decision. Either agree guidelines and rules can only be a means of exploitation that are not a valid agreement or there is no room for me to exist in the paradigm that I am existing in. Either accept the new paradigm and evolve or ignore and ban me. But I will continue the same understanding that we should be our own leader and co-operate for the empowerment of the individual.

[Myplanet2]

Dean. Do you think your could clearly word a post that says exactly what it is you are seeing here, that you believe not to be working?

I can't get a sense of what you're on about from what you've said so far. I don't understand what you're saying exactly.

[Dean Plejaren]

Originally Posted by Myplanet2

Dean. Do you think your could clearly word a post that says exactly what it is you are seeing here, that you believe not to be working?

I can't get a sense of what you're on about from what you've said so far. I don't understand what you're saying exactly.

Read very carefully my last post that I edited. Maybe read it twice or 3 times. You will understand what I said is true if you have the wisdom to see it.

[Dean Plejaren]

What saddens me is someone has to tell us how to be. Instead of us already knowing how to act...

Hows the guidelines for telling you what you should already know?

Is it productive not to think for ourself? I don't think so it's detrimental void agreements.

Face it if we have to read guidelines we must be worse than sheep. We must not know what is right and wrong. We must have serious problems if we need written guidelines to function.

I believe moderators are capable of proper decisions on their own as is everyone.

But you don't have that instead you have rules where we are encouraged not to think. No wonder we can't get along if we don't want to think about it and make an effort.

[Xhaosis]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

Hows the guidelines for telling you what you should already know?

Is it productive not to think for ourself? I don't think so it's detrimental void agreements.

Face it if we have to read guidelines we must be worse than sheep. We must not know what is right and wrong. We must have serious problems if we need written guidelines to function.

I believe moderators are capable of proper decisions on their own as is everyone.

But you don't have that instead you have rules where we are encouraged not to think. No wonder we can't get along if we don't want to think about it and make an effort.

Hmmm.. I believe your being grotesque with the truth.. As far as trying to be careful with complexity, you also have to understand you will be right sometimes, just not right for your liking. Once again, knowing and being told how to act, the being told how to act part is immature. Knowing how to act is a form of maturity. Yet with such a active state of immediate information and the desire for immediate conversation about it to the world leaves a resentment and trivial aspect about how everyone wishes to see the world. Which therefore creates a active yet hastened way of the World. Our interpretations is not as a whole, it is as individual and it is spread across our World with a speed of light never seen before. Until we can adapt to such a force of nature, we will be unable to grasp and understand the truth's of the World. This once again is the part of evolution that we must accept or we must accept we can reach no higher.. Then again who is to say this is what we need.. Finding our own way I believe is more important then following the flock.
With that said we also have to consider this is not JUST your World. You share it. Treating it with respect just as the other inhabitants as well. Not questioning it. By doing so you will never get a answer of your liking. EVER..

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

But notice something when you do this......Remember the policies of anti-terrorism laws? What does it end up doing?

Hi Dean

You've raised some pretty interesting questions, questions which are in no doubt on the tip of other peoples thounges as well. The policies of Anti-Terrorist laws are made with the intent of creating an invisible prison around the people in which the end result favours the elite. The rules created here at Avalon are made with the intent of genuinely creating value for the people of this forum and thus the end result will inevitibly be different.

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

How do you protect people? By putting the power in the hands of a few people?

If we had no rules the forum would degenerate into total chaos. We have already witnessed this earlier on in the forums existance where a few choose to spread negativity and fear, as well as some well placed tactical remarks about the moderators, Bill and Kerry and as a result of this some of the more productive members left the forum. While there are tigers in a zoo you will always need a way of protecting the visitors from their destructive little claws.

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

I am not trying to argue this is just open discussion about things. It's my view that the foundation of something will determine how strong it will be.

Open discussion is healthy and is more then welcome here. The moderators of Avalon, unlike the 'PTB' are more then happy to explain their actions honestly. There are no secrets here.

Originally Posted by Dean Plejaren

All that Avalon is for I am supporting, but this is just how I think. I'm not demanding anything just being transparent about how I think.

And again i would like to thank you for your thoughts. There are many people who have a sense of paranoia about the forum and why it needs to be moderated. Openness, honesty and integrity are values we hold very highly here and the moderators do their utmost to keep the forum healthy and balanced but I would like to remind everyone that it is essential that we put rules in place, there are nefarious people that visit here as many are already aware, who's sole purpose is to divide us which would eventually lead to the disintigration of the forum.


All the best,

Jack