Pay to post goes against the main philosopy

[Karen]

The decision has been made. Bill and Kerry have heard every argument against it a bazillion times. They looked at all the options, looked at all the feedback and now this is their decision, which from day one, they said would probably happen. The subscription page is being designed and the plans are progressing, are you?

If you say you don’t have the money,
Then we say there will be gift memberships.
If you say you don’t want to ask for charity,
Then we say you can help out.
You can be a moderator, a researcher …
your imagination is the only limit.
Look around this forum and http://projectcamelot.org.
Imagine what skills you have to give a hand …
Send me a PM.

If you object based on the principle of the matter,
Well, then maybe it will have to be goodbye.
You will be missed.

If you have info to share
and you refuse to participate in the subscription fee
or are a whistleblower, send an email to
support@projectcamelot.org

These are the options, now move along Avalonians, move along.
The decision is final.

But if you still feel a need to vent go ahead and get it out ...

[milk and honey]

I hope that all the threads devoted to this question of 'subscription' are not destroyed but rather kept as a part of the PA archive. From a philosophical standpoint it has been an important sharing of views, not merely a base venting of frustration.

[Dean Plejaren]

Milk and honey you did a superb job at clarifying yourself and pointing it all out. I don't think any hard feelings are apparent at all.

[Karen]

Originally Posted by milk and honey

I hope that all the threads devoted to this question of 'subscription' are not destroyed but rather kept as a part of the PA archive. From a philosophical standpoint it has been an important sharing of views, not merely a base venting of frustration.

As far as I know, there is no plan to destroy any more threads or posts on this forum. I know a couple of deleted threads happened by accident, and a failsafe has now been installed to prevent future events of that type. I believe there are still a lot in a holding bin to be sorted out and I have advocated for them to be released back into the forum without further time used to sort them. Yes, and I feel unfortunately so, some threads were deleted because the original goal was for this to be a great repository of resources for people, and some were judged not to fit that criteria. I advocated for no deleting of anything (except the spammers of ads and porn) and that is the view now expressed in Kerry's post yesterday.

So do not fear, I think the deleting has been stopped.

Karen

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by Karen

The decision has been made. Bill and Kerry have heard every argument against it a bazillion times. They looked at all the options, looked at all the feedback and now this is their decision, which from day one, they said would probably happen. The subscription page is being designed and the plans are progressing, are you?

If you say you don’t have the money,
Then we say there will be gift memberships.
If you say you don’t want to ask for charity,
Then we say you can help out.
You can be a moderator, a researcher …
your imagination is the only limit.
Look around this forum and http://projectcamelot.org.
Imagine what skills you have to give a hand …
Send me a PM.

If you object based on the principle of the matter,
Well, then maybe it will have to be goodbye.
You will be missed.

If you have info to share
and you refuse to participate in the subscription fee
or are a whistleblower, send an email to
support@projectcamelot.org

These are the options, now move along Avalonians, move along.
The decision is final.

But if you still feel a need to vent go ahead and get it out ...

My last word on the subject...

With respect, your post misses the points Karen.

1) We all have "info to share" right here on the forum. No need to email PA about it.

2) The suggestion to make some other kind of contribution to PC/PA misses the point that a contibution is already being made by our participation here.

3) Asking someone else to pay the subscription fee for us is no solution just like asking someone else to pay fines for breaching an unjust law is no solution to that.

I have no hard feelings about it. Just keeping the issues straight.

[Karen]

Originally Posted by milk and honey

My last word on the subject...

With respect, your post misses the points Karen.

1) We all have "info to share" right here on the forum. No need to email PA about it.

2) The suggestion to make some other kind of contribution to PC/PA misses the point that a contibution is already being made by our participation here.

3) Asking someone else to pay the subscription fee for us is no solution just like asking someone else to pay fines for breaching an unjust law is no solution to that.

I have no hard feelings about it. Just keeping the issues straight.

Yes, I did miss those points in my post, because there is nothing more I can do to advocate for them. I do have them written upon my heart. I have a stack of papers an inch high on notes about how to improve avalon. I noted almost everyone's comments on the subscription fee and had a chat with Bill about people's best objections, some of which you list above. I tried to advocate for an all out and proper fund raiser. After listening to Bill's responses I decided that to take it any further felt like sabotage to their plans already in the works.

I talked to Kerry on the phone earlier about a new moderating strategy that is more gentle and kind and is based on discussions with members when a problem is perceived and that the deletion of posts and threads was really upsetting a lot of people. She announced her vision of how the forum should be run the next morning.

I am a 9 on the Ennegram, the top point, and I can see all sides of an argument, but making decisions on something is very difficult. After my chat with Bill, I decided to accept their choice and do what I can to help it succeed. I think the forum will be OK,

I am the one with my ear to ground listening to the complaints and questions, and taking note of them, even before i became a moderator here. Anyone can PM me, for I cannot read the entire forum and will miss many of them that are posted here and there.

I am posting this as information for everyone, not just you, Milk and Honey. So many questions have never been answered. I hope people will look at the concepts/ideas and nobody pick's at my choice of words, I have been at this post for a long time now. And I wanted you to know I did try for the option you want ... I am not trying to argue with anyone about this. I just had to go with the fact that their decision is final and was the original intent that I read when I came here on the first day it was created. I think many who came along later missed that.

Karen

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by Karen

Yes, I did miss those points in my post, because there is nothing more I can do to advocate for them. I do have them written upon my heart. I have a stack of papers an inch high on notes about how to improve avalon. I noted almost everyone's comments on the subscription fee and had a chat with Bill about people's best objections, some of which you list above. I tried to advocate for an all out and proper fund raiser. After listening to Bill's responses I decided that to take it any further felt like sabotage to their plans already in the works.

I talked to Kerry on the phone earlier about a new moderating strategy that is more gentle and kind and is based on discussions with members when a problem is perceived and that the deletion of posts and threads was really upsetting a lot of people. She announced her vision of how the forum should be run the next morning.

I am a 9 on the Ennegram, the top point, and I can see all sides of an argument, but making decisions on something is very difficult. After my chat with Bill, I decided to accept their choice and do what I can to help it succeed. I think the forum will be OK,

I am the one with my ear to ground listening to the complaints and questions, and taking note of them, even before i became a moderator here. Anyone can PM me, for I cannot read the entire forum and will miss many of them that are posted here and there.

I am posting this as information for everyone, not just you, Milk and Honey. So many questions have never been answered. I hope people will look at the concepts/ideas and nobody pick's at my choice of words, I have been at this post for a long time now. And I wanted you to know I did try for the option you want ... I am not trying to argue with anyone about this. I just had to go with the fact that their decision is final and was the original intent that I read when I came here on the first day it was created. I think many who came along later missed that.

Karen

I appreciate what you're saying here. With these comments you're doing a fine job walking the fine line in the role of mod.

Cheers Karen, take care.

[BattleMage!]

Well, this thread has all been well and good, but the second I'm not allowed to post without paying I'm gone.

Fortunately for this forum, it appears that the flock is more than willing to pay its tithe. So, just like the Christians who pay every Sunday to get the "free" information from the Bible delievered in a sermon by the Preacher, so too will the faithful pay to get the "free" information that the PA/PC people have acquired.










And so the transformation from "unique and bold" to "just like everyone else" begins...

[MaskMarvl]

Originally Posted by BattleMage!

...just like the Christians who pay every Sunday to get the "free" information from the Bible delievered in a sermon by the Preacher, so too will the faithful pay to get the "free" information that the PA/PC people have acquired.

Close but not quite... Christians aren't obligated to pay to hear the sermon... It's voluntary and can be whatever amount one wishes.

[MaskMarvl]

Originally Posted by Karen

The decision has been made. Bill and Kerry have heard every argument against it a bazillion times. They looked at all the options, looked at all the feedback and now this is their decision, which from day one, they said would probably happen. The subscription page is being designed and the plans are progressing, are you?

These are the options, now move along Avalonians, move along.
The decision is final.

But if you still feel a need to vent go ahead and get it out ...

I guess it's a lost battle then, and like I said in another thread:

If it's true that the majority of the current members are against the subscription concept (mainly based on principal), then I suggest that all who oppose this idea to simply "stand-by" and not pay the fee, a sort of " workers' strike" if you will.... Or in this case, a "posters' strike"

We can take it from there... see what develops.

Maybe this way we can get B & K to reconsider the other options.

P.S. (for the record, I didn't appreciate the "move along" remark as if you were hearding sheep)

[David]

It always amazes me to see people who want to have something for nothing. I could make a hit song with all the blues singing here.

[Karen]

Originally Posted by MaskMarvl

P.S. (for the record, I didn't appreciate the "move along" remark as if you were hearding sheep)

Thank you for the feedback on my attempt at a little lightness and humor on the situation, and I really mean that and will take it into consideration in the future. The tune of the song popped into my head and made me giggle - I even took out the word "little." OK, I give myself a D in the comedian category. I do truly apologize. I try so hard not to be offensive and it takes me quite some time to write posts. I am trying to give people the answers to the questions that everyone is asking and no one else is answering.

[MaskMarvl]

Originally Posted by Karen

Thank you for the feedback on my attempt at a little lightness and humor on the situation, and I really mean that and will take it into consideration in the future. The tune of the song popped into my head and made me giggle - I even took out the word "little." OK, I give myself a D in the comedian category. I do truly apologize. I try so hard not to be offensive and it takes me quite some time to write posts. I am trying to give people the answers to the questions that everyone is asking and no one else is answering.

I guess I didn't get the "joke" since I don't know what song you're refering to...

In any case, no hard feelings...

[KathyT]

I never knew about the Avalon for a few months after I started listening to the interviews. And when I did hear about it, I thought it was to support the "ground crew".

That concept, is people helping people. If new people that come along have to "pay" to post an urgent message to begin participating among the "ground crews", it is going to restrict their access and needs.

I suggest that any new 'member' be given a month of free introductory time to begin to participate in the forum.

Anyone with a little knowledge of the forum, or someone with a month's introduction, will then know whether they're staying or not.

It is going to make quite a few people drop, that I anticipate. I actually think advertising would probably bring in more revenue and wonder why that hasn't been tried.

[Karen]

Originally Posted by KathyT

I never knew about the Avalon for a few months after I started listening to the interviews. And when I did hear about it, I thought it was to support the "ground crew".

That concept, is people helping people. If new people that come along have to "pay" to post an urgent message to begin participating among the "ground crews", it is going to restrict their access and needs.

I suggest that any new 'member' be given a month of free introductory time to begin to participate in the forum.

Anyone with a little knowledge of the forum, or someone with a month's introduction, will then know whether they're staying or not.

It is going to make quite a few people drop, that I anticipate. I actually think advertising would probably bring in more revenue and wonder why that hasn't been tried.

I will submit your 1 month free idea to Bill and Kerry. They know a lot of people will drop out. It's been quite overwhelming for they did not know so many would show up. Bill has considered and absolutely positively vetoed advertising. What pushes peoples buttons as much as money stuff - advertising! I wanted a full out NPR style fundraiser. I talked to them both and concluded they will not change their decision.

I have asked for a button on the subscriptions page for people with urgent information to share. That is the best compromise I can come up with.

Karen

[Kly]

Wow this is a tough situation for Bill and Kerry.. They do such great work and put a lot of work into the production of each interview then run two web sites on top of it all.

Yes they get to travel the world and meet some of the great minds of our time. Yes that cost a lot of money to do and I am amazed that they think they can do it for only $60,000 a year (I think that was the figure). And if Lindsey Williams is right none of us will be traveling far in 6-9 months... and he has been right the last 2 years I have been listening to what he says.

How much did we each spend on the computer that allows us to see this information? Or how much each month for the net connection. Yes it is true many of us have very little left over and less in the very near future.

On the other hand had I been asked to pay to see PC interviews I would have missed them and now I check every day to see if a new one is up and I have watched them all some 3-4 times and I forward the links to everyone I know trying to get the word out.

These are difficult times and like Bob Dylan said .. "If any artist has anything to say they better say it now"

If you can't pay your house payment you could be homeless... and if Kerry and Bill can not continue to operate we will lose our true family.


In closing:

"Again and again in history some special people wake up. And they
have no ground in the crowd. They move to broader laws. They
carry strange customs with them and demand room for bold and
audacious actions. The future speaks ruthlessly through them.
They change the world!" Rainer Maria Rilke


Hope to see you in the future ...
what ever that future may bring,
Some people say it's the cards your dealt..
Others say it's the words you sing.

-m.kelly