Wingmakers: Fact, Fiction, or Good Story with some truth...

[Sanat]

His effort towards taking away all that which the "spiritual ego" clings to and make people realize that they are far from truth of the Self even if they are somewhat on the right track by moving into the "spiritual domain" is effective. And so is his analogy with the dark room. Socrates dedicated his whole life towards showing people how little they really know in proportions to what they "thought they knew", and thus giving them the opportunity admit to the lies they had lived on, and start the real and authentic search from a point of not-knowing. Reaching the point of not-knowing is the hardest part for most people, and also the essential first step in the authentic search for Truth. I feel his effort is along these lines, and therefore of high integrity.

His "new/fresh" concepts and words serve this purpose also, and so does his "denial" that any known "figure" ever realized the true Self/Oneness. His whole effort is towards taking things away that many still cling to and identify with. Only by letting go of all such identifications can one get a taste of real Oneness which he calls the "Sovereign Integral". I really enjoyed the freshness of this interview as one of the better things Camelot has done lately.

The Anu story is somewhat similar to what is only vaguely hinted upon in the Handbooks from George Green.

His "quantum breath" method etc. is a very good method for getting glimpses of the state of no-mind and of learning to always come back to the present here and now. Training the mind to not run into past/future "dreams" all the time. There is a saying in the east (at least I have heard it somewhere) that if you can sit still with closed eyes and remain totally present for just 5 full minutes you have realized the Self. If you "forget yourself" in a daydream for as little as just a second you must start all over again. Trying this is a great way to feel how strong the mind-prison really is. And it can also be humbling and a tell-tale sign of where one really is along the Scale (this test is also independent of "knowledge" just like the quantum breath method). Rather strange that we should not be able to control our own mind and instead it controls us, is it not? Like a dog walking its owner and not the other way around....

That being said: Even a small glimpse of clairty is enough to tell us which direction to move towards. Without such a glimpse we are all fumbling around in the dark room no matter how much "knowledge" we think we have gathered. That accumulated "knowledge" is, in fact, the very darkness that prevent us from seeing clearly.

[milk and honey]

I'll put it back when i've edited it

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by Sanat

His (James') "new/fresh" concepts and words serve this purpose also, and so does his "denial" that any known "figure" ever realized the true Self/Oneness. His whole effort is towards taking things away that many still cling to and identify with. Only by letting go of all such identifications can one get a taste of real Oneness which he calls the "Sovereign Integral". I really enjoyed the freshness of this interview as one of the better things Camelot has done lately.

The truths that "James" includes in his work are taken from the spiritual teachings of the past. He has obviously read them and the countless commentaries on them. These concepts of truth which he simply re-packages with a few clinical terms of his own are not new or fresh. For thousands of years the spiritual adepts have been teaching that the individual soul (the intelligent fragment in matter of the spiritual- Self) is trapped in the dualistic polarities of the outer-ego (the carnal mind) and that this keeps souls trapped in the mass consciousness (the world) and ever mindless of the higher- Self.

Does that sound familiar? Just transcribe it with all "James" new words, and his own mis-representations and there it is, 'shiny new' "Wingmakers" to help us go "where no man has gone before."

The adepts have known Oneness intimately and taught the Way for ages:

"The kingdom of heaven (the consciousness of Spirit personified) is within you".

"Seek and you will find (your real-Self within)" ...... "Knock and the (inner) door shall be opened (to conscious awareness)" --- Jesus the Christ.

Guatama also taught us to seek the light of Self- knowledge within. He called it Buddha Mind. The Buddha Self must 'cleanse' the dualistic lower-ego from the 'mental poisons' (false concepts) which keep the soul ignorant and stuck in 'worldliness' (the mass consciousness).

Does that sound familiar?

In Krishna's teachings, the same concepts appear .... "Krishna (the teacher) was the higher- Mind and Arjuna (the student) was the soul in matter. Again, the concept that the soul can awaken to spirit. See Krishna (the higher- Self) riding in his carriage with Arjuna. Krishna has a steady hand on the reigns of 4 horses (the 4 bodies of man ) all acting under the direction and superior intelligence of Krishna (the higher- Self).

In this scene the physical and subtle bodies (the 4 horses) have become obedient servants to the higher-Self because the dualistic egoic impulses have been inactivated and stilled. The soul - arjuna - is freed from the pull of the senses and the lower- ego (wild horses) and realises the joy of Oneness with Krishna who steers the horses with consummate ease. The adepts have all delivered the same basic message... Go within and realise the "kingdom", the "Buddha" and "Krishna-consciousness". Different words for the higher-Self..... same solution to the human condition.

Does that sound familiar too?

It should if you've been reading the WMM. But James prefers to play semantic games with the terms 'God, Spirit, Soul, atma' etc which the historically identifiable adepts used in their spiritual teachings. He believes that those concepts originated not in the higher- Mind of the adepts but in what he calls the "Human Mind System". Consequently, he believes they're just another historical deception.

But They're not. Everything James has written about the 'Sovereign Integral' is a carbon copy of the Spiritual-Self / God-consciousness / Buddha-Mind / Krishna- consciousness / Christ- consciousness /Atma / God / Spirit etc etc etc as taught by the historical adepts. Every one of those terms signify the HIGHER- SELF (ie the "brand new" "Sovereign Integral") and like James, the adepts have all taught that IT IS WITHIN OURSELVES NOT SEPARATE OR OUTSIDE OF OURSELVES as James seems to think they did. His failure to discern that, puts him at the level of understanding of a christan sunday school teacher. The other alternative is that he has constructed that straw man only to demolish it. But why?

Because it demolishes virtually every other source of spiritual information which we are likely ever to come across. His denials and dismissals are a weapon of mass destruction designed to set James personally and the WMM apart from virtually everything else in the field of spirituality and metaphysics. Pretty ambitious eh? Everything must be demolished including the US Constitution. The NWO is after all an inevitable step on the path to freedom is it not?

James seems just as confused about ascension, averring that somehow ascension was taught by the adepts as a belief - again the product of the "HMS" - in an external union with an external God source. They never taught that at all, as i've shown.

Jesus ascended. But James misrepresents the concept of ascension. Jesus' soul united with the Christ-consciousness and ascended to his highest Self - the I AM. (the 'Father'). He did not go to an external place. His soul rose to permanent union with his spiritual- Self. He ascended to a 'place' in consciousness.

I realise that James doesn't believe in the version of ascension which he dismisses but he must believe that the adepts share a similar delusion with those modern folk who believe ascension is something that will happen to them as a result of a wave of energy in 2012.

Somehow, after all his misunderstandings James + the WM acknowledge Jesus as a high Spiritual Helper of humanity. Many of the 'alien saviors' like to say that they share the stage with Jesus but i believe the pretense is purely for convenience to cast their nets as wide as possible. Urantia, Nesara, Galactic Federation, semjase group, and many others include him in their line-up and 'ride to earth' on his coat tails. One iron in the fire is Jesus' return to Eath don't forget. The possibilities are obvious.

We can rationalise James' denial of the enlightened adepts' teachings any way we please, yet that is where he got most of his own schpiel. If Jesus, Guatama and others had not realised Oneness with the true- Self they simply could not have concieved, nor expressed so elegantly, the concepts which reveal their self-mastery. All James has done is repackage them and their work without due acknowledgement and then proceeded to invalidate their concepts as merely an ignorant expression of the HMS.

There are several possible reasons why James' 'whole effort is towards taking things away that many still cling to and identify with" but only some are valid. One is "in the moment" to let go of false concepts that keep the soul's attention focussed in the lower- ego, so that one can experience direct awareness of the spiritual-Self. Another is "in the moment" to let go of all concepts of the outer-mind to experience that union with the higher-Self. Yet another reason "James" may be "taking things away that people identify with" is so that he can summarily dismiss the true adepts and their teachings and substitute his own agenda - and those who back him - in their place. That's a lot different to sharing the stage with them and representing their teachings truthfully.

So i wouldn't rush to impute a pure motive to James' WMM when so many obvious problems are evident.

My reading of "james" is that he/she is part of a sophisticated chorus of psy-operatives who are trying to sever this generation from the past. It is also evident to me, from other comments he makes and the stories he invents, that he is part of the campaign to usher in Bush's New World Order. There's enough saccharine there to coat the tonsils of the chorus but it's obvious to me who they are and how they operate. James is just one of the ushers in the NWO theatre. That's his contribution.... fascinating theatre.

[Sanat]

milk and honey,

I do not disagree with your points. Who knows anyones true motives but themselves. But if his effort is to take away things that people identify with from the past, to "get them into the Now", then I see nothing wrong with that at all. It's a honorable effort in my opinion. But again, who am I to judge his efforts. That is simply just how I choose to percieve the interview until it is "proven otherwise". It's not hard to see that what he talks about has been talked about in the past. Truth is the same always, but as you say; it can only be realized in the Now, by letting go of the past.

Love and gratitude,

Sanat

[Myplanet2]

rejecting something on the basis of whether it contradicts some "bought into" data set is equally as silly as accepting something because it agrees with some "bought into" data set.

My own filters flash on when I hear things like "you'll recognize it as false when it contradicts what I've said. (paraphrase of quotes purported to be from Jesus)

I can picture some scanning a thread or post with a key word search on "Jesus" to see if "he's" contradicted, and if so, then getting to work disgorging the HMS (and GSSC) borne justifications.

Where does that compulsion to discredit originate? That's what I'd be asking. Not "how can I discredit this in his holy name"?

[Sanat]

Originally Posted by Myplanet2

Where does that compulsion to discredit originate? That's what I'd be asking. Not "how can I discredit this in his holy name"?

Indeed, I agree. If all is indeed One, then there really is no need to oppose anything, as all "opposition" is based on duality perspective. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. From clarity one can see truth in everything that exists. From duality one sees only conflict between "this" and "that".

Love,

Sanat

[milk and honey]

Originally Posted by Myplanet2

rejecting something on the basis of whether it contradicts some "bought into" data set is equally as silly as accepting something because it agrees with some "bought into" data set.

I know. Thats what i pointed out that the WMM material is doing with older concepts/words. Why?

Originally Posted by Myplanet

My own filters flash on when I hear things like "you'll recognize it as false when it contradicts what I've said. (paraphrase of quotes purported to be from Jesus)

I can picture some scanning a thread or post with a key word search on "Jesus" to see if "he's" contradicted, and if so, then getting to work disgorging the HMS (and GSSC) borne justifications.

Where does that compulsion to discredit originate? That's what I'd be asking. Not "how can I discredit this in his holy name"?

That's what i was asking.

What is at the root of the attempts of the WMM to discredit worthy concepts?

For my part, i pointed out an esoteric layer of what the older texts were revealing then compared and contrasted it with the WMM. James did a lot of comparing and contrasting himself in the interview. I outlined the demolition job that is evident to me in the WMM and explained what i see as the subtext underneath that.

That doesn't make me a 'HMS' "disgorger" or a fundamentalist christian for noticing what's there and writing it down on a discussion forum. If you're referring to me that is.

[Ashatav]

Originally Posted by milk and honey

The truths that "James" includes in his work are taken from the spiritual teachings of the past. He has obviously read them and the countless commentaries on them. These concepts of truth which he simply re-packages with a few clinical terms of his own are not new or fresh. For thousands of years the spiritual adepts have been teaching that the individual soul (the intelligent fragment in matter of the spiritual- Self) is trapped in the dualistic polarities of the outer-ego (the carnal mind) and that this keeps souls trapped in the mass consciousness (the world) and ever mindless of the higher- Self.

Does that sound familiar? Just transcribe it with all "James" new words, and his own mis-representations and there it is, 'shiny new' "Wingmakers" to help us go "where no man has gone before."

The adepts have known Oneness intimately and taught the Way for ages:

"The kingdom of heaven (the consciousness of Spirit personified) is within you".

"Seek and you will find (your real-Self within)" ...... "Knock and the (inner) door shall be opened (to conscious awareness)" --- Jesus the Christ.

Guatama also taught us to seek the light of Self- knowledge within. He called it Buddha Mind. The Buddha Self must 'cleanse' the dualistic lower-ego from the 'mental poisons' (false concepts) which keep the soul ignorant and stuck in 'worldliness' (the mass consciousness).

Does that sound familiar?

In Krishna's teachings, the same concepts appear .... "Krishna (the teacher) was the higher- Mind and Arjuna (the student) was the soul in matter. Again, the concept that the soul can awaken to spirit. See Krishna (the higher- Self) riding in his carriage with Arjuna. Krishna has a steady hand on the reigns of 4 horses (the 4 bodies of man ) all acting under the direction and superior intelligence of Krishna (the higher- Self).

In this scene the physical and subtle bodies (the 4 horses) have become obedient servants to the higher-Self because the dualistic egoic impulses have been inactivated and stilled. The soul - arjuna - is freed from the pull of the senses and the lower- ego (wild horses) and realises the joy of Oneness with Krishna who steers the horses with consummate ease. The adepts have all delivered the same basic message... Go within and realise the "kingdom", the "Buddha" and "Krishna-consciousness". Different words for the higher-Self..... same solution to the human condition.

Does that sound familiar too?

It should if you've been reading the WMM. But James prefers to play semantic games with the terms 'God, Spirit, Soul, atma' etc which the historically identifiable adepts used in their spiritual teachings. He believes that those concepts originated not in the higher- Mind of the adepts but in what he calls the "Human Mind System". Consequently, he believes they're just another historical deception.

But They're not. Everything James has written about the 'Sovereign Integral' is a carbon copy of the Spiritual-Self / God-consciousness / Buddha-Mind / Krishna- consciousness / Christ- consciousness /Atma / God / Spirit etc etc etc as taught by the historical adepts. Every one of those terms signify the HIGHER- SELF (ie the "brand new" "Sovereign Integral") and like James, the adepts have all taught that IT IS WITHIN OURSELVES NOT SEPARATE OR OUTSIDE OF OURSELVES as James seems to think they did. His failure to discern that, puts him at the level of understanding of a christan sunday school teacher. The other alternative is that he has constructed that straw man only to demolish it. But why?

Because it demolishes virtually every other source of spiritual information which we are likely ever to come across. His denials and dismissals are a weapon of mass destruction designed to set James personally and the WMM apart from virtually everything else in the field of spirituality and metaphysics. Pretty ambitious eh? Everything must be demolished including the US Constitution. The NWO is after all an inevitable step on the path to freedom is it not?

James seems just as confused about ascension, averring that somehow ascension was taught by the adepts as a belief - again the product of the "HMS" - in an external union with an external God source. They never taught that at all, as i've shown.

Jesus ascended. But James misrepresents the concept of ascension. Jesus' soul united with the Christ-consciousness and ascended to his highest Self - the I AM. (the 'Father'). He did not go to an external place. His soul rose to permanent union with his spiritual- Self. He ascended to a 'place' in consciousness.

I realise that James doesn't believe in the version of ascension which he dismisses but he must believe that the adepts share a similar delusion with those modern folk who believe ascension is something that will happen to them as a result of a wave of energy in 2012.

Somehow, after all his misunderstandings James + the WM acknowledge Jesus as a high Spiritual Helper of humanity. Many of the 'alien saviors' like to say that they share the stage with Jesus but i believe the pretense is purely for convenience to cast their nets as wide as possible. Urantia, Nesara, Galactic Federation, semjase group, and many others include him in their line-up and 'ride to earth' on his coat tails. One iron in the fire is Jesus' return to Eath don't forget. The possibilities are obvious.

We can rationalise James' denial of the enlightened adepts' teachings any way we please, yet that is where he got most of his own schpiel. If Jesus, Guatama and others had not realised Oneness with the true- Self they simply could not have concieved, nor expressed so elegantly, the concepts which reveal their self-mastery. All James has done is repackage them and their work without due acknowledgement and then proceeded to invalidate their concepts as merely an ignorant expression of the HMS.

There are several possible reasons why James' 'whole effort is towards taking things away that many still cling to and identify with" but only some are valid. One is "in the moment" to let go of false concepts that keep the soul's attention focussed in the lower- ego, so that one can experience direct awareness of the spiritual-Self. Another is "in the moment" to let go of all concepts of the outer-mind to experience that union with the higher-Self. Yet another reason "James" may be "taking things away that people identify with" is so that he can summarily dismiss the true adepts and their teachings and substitute his own agenda - and those who back him - in their place. That's a lot different to sharing the stage with them and representing their teachings truthfully.

So i wouldn't rush to impute a pure motive to James' WMM when so many obvious problems are evident.

My reading of "james" is that he/she is part of a sophisticated chorus of psy-operatives who are trying to sever this generation from the past. It is also evident to me, from other comments he makes and the stories he invents, that he is part of the campaign to usher in Bush's New World Order. There's enough saccharine there to coat the tonsils of the chorus but it's obvious to me who they are and how they operate. James is just one of the ushers in the NWO theatre. That's his contribution.... fascinating theatre.

Agree, it have to many flaws.



Why believe the first thing who comes from NOWHERE with our eyes closed because it smells nice???


The people believes anything these days who seems aceptable.



Thank you theosophy!



(hahaha in this forum if a person don't believe totally odd things is a strange, me included!)


Cheers!