My point of view on the vaccination discussion going on (partly in Zurich)

meissmar · 07-27-2009, 09:47 PM

Hi everyone!

At first I wanted to post this at the zurich thread, but since the vaccinations discussion is going on in several threads I thought it's better to open another for the virus question and as my reply to Dan's comments. Also there were so many people at the conference asking me for my sources and opinion after I was on stage, that I hope to reach a few with this, that I couldn't give a direct answer (like the man from the Netherlands; Sorry, but I couldn't find you again Sunday afternoon!).

After Davids comment on vaccines, when Dan started to say that vaccines are good, I was pretty emotional at first too. I couldn't believe my ears. I couldn't believe that he would say this to an audience like that. I didn't freak out like some of the people you hear in the audio. I'm not like that. Then it all broke loose and I had the impression that no one on stage knew how to handle this situation. Dan was asking for the studies that show what the people were claiming. And he was asking for the poeple to come to the stage and not attack him out of the comfort of the darkness. I assume he was expecting that nobody would go to the stage.

But that felt like a keyword for me and I just had to get on stage. So I started asking him for the studies that show that viruses do cause the diseases that are being associated with them, that these viruses have been isolated and photographed isolated. After all, that's what people like Dr. Stefan Lanka or Dr. Claus Koehnlein in Germany are looking and asking for. He admitted right there that he also never received any. All the "proof" that you can find for their existence is indirect methods. This would be ok, if there is a starting point when the virus has been isolated, photographed, characterized and shown to be causing the disease, that seems to be related to the virus. But that doesn't seem to be the case for any virus.

That's the same thing like with AIDS. Only that there, some people are still questioning the reality of HIV and its isolation, with most other diseases they don't. When I read a lot of stuff from AIDS and HIV critics, I wondered why only few people and scientists seem to realize that HIV has never been isolated or characterized or been shown that it's the cause of AIDS. When I stumbled across Stefan Lanka's stuff, I realized that it's the same thing they do with every virus, so that answered my main question about the HIV discussion.

The discussion with Dan that evening got cut short by a change of tape and I couldn't finish the argument, even though I just wanted to add for everybody in the audience to make his own research and find an educated decision about what's right for them.

Unfortunately, I didn't get another chance to talk to Dan again about his point of view and what makes him so convinced that Viruses really are the culprit. I do not say that I am sure that viruses do not cause these diseases, but I highly doubt it. I'm not saying that viruses do not exist. The question for me and many others is if they really do what we think they do in our body or if they might have a completely different function. What if we are just watching something in our body and we always see a fight going on between good and evil, even though it's not there.

I would really like to have some discussions about this whole thing with people that believe in viruses and think they have the direct proof of their existence and disease creating abilities. Discussion and exchange of ideas is alwas the best thing in my opinion. I also asked Dan in an Email if we could have and exchange about this but I will probably not receive an answer afetr what he wrote.

So as long as we have not proven that viruses are evil, there's no point for me to discuss vaccinations. How can they help, if we don't even know if the virus is the bad guy. And how can we create a vaccine with a "dead virus" without ever isolating and characterizing it? We don't even know that it's there.

I find it very disappointing that all Dan has to say about this issue is that I have a certain believe system where viruses do not fit into. And I don't think that the people screaming at him all thought that viruses don't exist. They just didn't like him suggesting that vaccinations are good and that the people should go and get them. He just took my questions and thought this is what they all think. But judging by how many people approached me after that and asked me, I don't think so.

What I also don't like about this comment is that he is not discussing the point, but rather discrediting the people not believing in viruses. That sounds all too familiar to me. If you don't have arguments, then you attack the person. That's what "they" do to him as well.

And where's the difference between his belief system and mine as long as he can't prove that his is not just a belief? If there's no real prove to support the virus theory, I don't believe in it. Therefore I have a different believe than he does. So surely he can say it's a believe system, but so is his.

I know it's hard to let go of an adopted belief or to think outside the box when you've been trained to think otherwise (all our live we get told about the evil viruses). I've been through this more than once myself. It's even harder to have virology questioned which I think he studied. But then it should be easy to prove the doubters wrong, if they have a false belief. There is so much money spent on this. The studies should be there, don't you think? So why is there still a discussion about this? Why is nobody silencing the guys that come up with these questions? Just show them and everybody else the proof. That's what science is all about.

I also believe that the main reason why we have not experienced a pandemic even though "they" seem to try to create one, is simply because these viruses do not work like that (if they exist). Why try to kill people with vaccines or starvation or the like, if you could create a pandemic by simply setting free a virus. Like Dan said, as a bioweapon, these viruses are way too ineffective in killing people. As well as "HIV", "SARS", "Bird Flu" etc. "They" may even be able to create something that "works" for a few people (kill them), but then disintegrates and becomes harmless.

It would be so much easier to make people take the vaccines if many more people would die from an artificial virus, but for some reason, it doesn't happen.

So in the end, I don't know what to make of Dan. On one hand his story seems to be credible with a guy like David totally believing in him and his story and it's also matching so well with the Law of One. But that can be artificially created as well. He didn't say much if anything really new at the conference. And I thought that he and Marcia are missing the spiritual perspective. Especially her rant at the end of their presentation Friday night made me and many others in the audience feel very uncomfortable. I think that the many great people in the audience have such a very spiritual perspective on everything, that this was just not fitting for them. They are way beyond hating "them". I don't want to discredit him, I'm just pretty confused about him right now.

I always remember a great thing that David said in one of his audio blogs. It went something like this: "Even if those guys do those evil things, it still does not give you the right to hate them." That's so true and deep!

For those that wanted to know my sources or might want to read some of the arguments from people questioning the virus theory, here's some links:

Dr. Stefan Lanka:

http://www.whale.to/b/lanka.html

http://www.whale.to/a/lanka.html

http://www.whale.to/a/lanka_h.html

http://www.neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index/slanka.htm

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/mcinterviewsl.htm

Unfortunately, there's only a few articles from him in English on the net. He has some great videos in German. But none in English (That's why I asked Bill and Kerry if they might want to interview him; I think many people from the conference might be interested to hear his opinion). I think there's also a book from him available in English. It's a little aggressive in it's style, but still pretty good information.

Dr. Claus Koehnlein:

Another German doctor, that opposes the consensus that viruses are the cause of everything where we can not see a bacteria as the cause (the bacteria issue btw. is a whole discussion in itself; Can we be sure that the bacteria is causing the dis-ease if it goes away when we kill the bacteria? What do we know of the role of bacteria in our body? - you might want to think about that for a moment...).

I have only found a book from him in english:
"Virus Mania: How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits At Our Expense (Paperback)"

I wanted to stress that I am not related to any of the people I was talking about and I do not make any profits from this! I just thought that since the interest was so high in these issues at the conference and here in this forum, that I write this up so everybody interested can make his own research and make his own decision about this topic. As Lanka says, you should not believe him, just because he says so. Go to your doctor and your health institutions and ask them for the proof of the viruses and their disease creating ability. You should find out for yourself if they have the studies that prove it, even WHO.

So enough from me (man, 2,5 hours writing this up!). Hopefully this is not too long so nobody reads it!

07-27-2009, 09:47 PM	#1
meissmar Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Baiersdorf-Hagenau, Bavaria, Germany Posts: 10	My point of view on the vaccination discussion going on (partly in Zurich) Hi everyone! At first I wanted to post this at the zurich thread, but since the vaccinations discussion is going on in several threads I thought it's better to open another for the virus question and as my reply to Dan's comments. Also there were so many people at the conference asking me for my sources and opinion after I was on stage, that I hope to reach a few with this, that I couldn't give a direct answer (like the man from the Netherlands; Sorry, but I couldn't find you again Sunday afternoon!). After Davids comment on vaccines, when Dan started to say that vaccines are good, I was pretty emotional at first too. I couldn't believe my ears. I couldn't believe that he would say this to an audience like that. I didn't freak out like some of the people you hear in the audio. I'm not like that. Then it all broke loose and I had the impression that no one on stage knew how to handle this situation. Dan was asking for the studies that show what the people were claiming. And he was asking for the poeple to come to the stage and not attack him out of the comfort of the darkness. I assume he was expecting that nobody would go to the stage. But that felt like a keyword for me and I just had to get on stage. So I started asking him for the studies that show that viruses do cause the diseases that are being associated with them, that these viruses have been isolated and photographed isolated. After all, that's what people like Dr. Stefan Lanka or Dr. Claus Koehnlein in Germany are looking and asking for. He admitted right there that he also never received any. All the "proof" that you can find for their existence is indirect methods. This would be ok, if there is a starting point when the virus has been isolated, photographed, characterized and shown to be causing the disease, that seems to be related to the virus. But that doesn't seem to be the case for any virus. That's the same thing like with AIDS. Only that there, some people are still questioning the reality of HIV and its isolation, with most other diseases they don't. When I read a lot of stuff from AIDS and HIV critics, I wondered why only few people and scientists seem to realize that HIV has never been isolated or characterized or been shown that it's the cause of AIDS. When I stumbled across Stefan Lanka's stuff, I realized that it's the same thing they do with every virus, so that answered my main question about the HIV discussion. The discussion with Dan that evening got cut short by a change of tape and I couldn't finish the argument, even though I just wanted to add for everybody in the audience to make his own research and find an educated decision about what's right for them. Unfortunately, I didn't get another chance to talk to Dan again about his point of view and what makes him so convinced that Viruses really are the culprit. I do not say that I am sure that viruses do not cause these diseases, but I highly doubt it. I'm not saying that viruses do not exist. The question for me and many others is if they really do what we think they do in our body or if they might have a completely different function. What if we are just watching something in our body and we always see a fight going on between good and evil, even though it's not there. I would really like to have some discussions about this whole thing with people that believe in viruses and think they have the direct proof of their existence and disease creating abilities. Discussion and exchange of ideas is alwas the best thing in my opinion. I also asked Dan in an Email if we could have and exchange about this but I will probably not receive an answer afetr what he wrote. So as long as we have not proven that viruses are evil, there's no point for me to discuss vaccinations. How can they help, if we don't even know if the virus is the bad guy. And how can we create a vaccine with a "dead virus" without ever isolating and characterizing it? We don't even know that it's there. I find it very disappointing that all Dan has to say about this issue is that I have a certain believe system where viruses do not fit into. And I don't think that the people screaming at him all thought that viruses don't exist. They just didn't like him suggesting that vaccinations are good and that the people should go and get them. He just took my questions and thought this is what they all think. But judging by how many people approached me after that and asked me, I don't think so. What I also don't like about this comment is that he is not discussing the point, but rather discrediting the people not believing in viruses. That sounds all too familiar to me. If you don't have arguments, then you attack the person. That's what "they" do to him as well. And where's the difference between his belief system and mine as long as he can't prove that his is not just a belief? If there's no real prove to support the virus theory, I don't believe in it. Therefore I have a different believe than he does. So surely he can say it's a believe system, but so is his. I know it's hard to let go of an adopted belief or to think outside the box when you've been trained to think otherwise (all our live we get told about the evil viruses). I've been through this more than once myself. It's even harder to have virology questioned which I think he studied. But then it should be easy to prove the doubters wrong, if they have a false belief. There is so much money spent on this. The studies should be there, don't you think? So why is there still a discussion about this? Why is nobody silencing the guys that come up with these questions? Just show them and everybody else the proof. That's what science is all about. I also believe that the main reason why we have not experienced a pandemic even though "they" seem to try to create one, is simply because these viruses do not work like that (if they exist). Why try to kill people with vaccines or starvation or the like, if you could create a pandemic by simply setting free a virus. Like Dan said, as a bioweapon, these viruses are way too ineffective in killing people. As well as "HIV", "SARS", "Bird Flu" etc. "They" may even be able to create something that "works" for a few people (kill them), but then disintegrates and becomes harmless. It would be so much easier to make people take the vaccines if many more people would die from an artificial virus, but for some reason, it doesn't happen. So in the end, I don't know what to make of Dan. On one hand his story seems to be credible with a guy like David totally believing in him and his story and it's also matching so well with the Law of One. But that can be artificially created as well. He didn't say much if anything really new at the conference. And I thought that he and Marcia are missing the spiritual perspective. Especially her rant at the end of their presentation Friday night made me and many others in the audience feel very uncomfortable. I think that the many great people in the audience have such a very spiritual perspective on everything, that this was just not fitting for them. They are way beyond hating "them". I don't want to discredit him, I'm just pretty confused about him right now. I always remember a great thing that David said in one of his audio blogs. It went something like this: "Even if those guys do those evil things, it still does not give you the right to hate them." That's so true and deep! For those that wanted to know my sources or might want to read some of the arguments from people questioning the virus theory, here's some links: Dr. Stefan Lanka: http://www.whale.to/b/lanka.html http://www.whale.to/a/lanka.html http://www.whale.to/a/lanka_h.html http://www.neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index/slanka.htm http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/mcinterviewsl.htm Unfortunately, there's only a few articles from him in English on the net. He has some great videos in German. But none in English (That's why I asked Bill and Kerry if they might want to interview him; I think many people from the conference might be interested to hear his opinion). I think there's also a book from him available in English. It's a little aggressive in it's style, but still pretty good information. Dr. Claus Koehnlein: Another German doctor, that opposes the consensus that viruses are the cause of everything where we can not see a bacteria as the cause (the bacteria issue btw. is a whole discussion in itself; Can we be sure that the bacteria is causing the dis-ease if it goes away when we kill the bacteria? What do we know of the role of bacteria in our body? - you might want to think about that for a moment...). I have only found a book from him in english: "Virus Mania: How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits At Our Expense (Paperback)" I wanted to stress that I am not related to any of the people I was talking about and I do not make any profits from this! I just thought that since the interest was so high in these issues at the conference and here in this forum, that I write this up so everybody interested can make his own research and make his own decision about this topic. As Lanka says, you should not believe him, just because he says so. Go to your doctor and your health institutions and ask them for the proof of the viruses and their disease creating ability. You should find out for yourself if they have the studies that prove it, even WHO. So enough from me (man, 2,5 hours writing this up!). Hopefully this is not too long so nobody reads it!