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Old 11-28-2008, 05:11 AM   #1
Carol
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Default Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

This chat is from another brain storming session in the Mod area. Please feel free to add your suggestions to the thread.

Carol: I've got some design issues I need to run by some folks and one of those is air exchange for the underground shelters along with toilet facilities.

One could use a camping chemical toilet or a composting toilet.. long term would need to be worked out where the composting toilet may be more practical but chemical for a shorter stint. One could even use a 5 gallon bucket with a lid and a small toilet seat that could be placed on top or the toilet seat type camper toilet with the plastic bags to hold waste and seal off each deposit much like the dirty diaper system. Liquid waste could be arranged to be disposed of through a gray water type of system buried along side of the shelter.

However the air filtration system is a design issue worth exploring.

Myplanet2: maybe composting

Carol: There needs to be a system for air exchange for the underground facilities. Air exchange is important because of the CO2 buildup and possible radon outgassing exposure from underground facilities.

I had this one friend who did do something along those lines in an underground safety area he put in and it utilized some type of fan for air exchange.

We are looking at the most easy, economical way to approach all of these systems. For instance, if one were to do the aquaponics.. they could even dig trenches for the water troughs and a tank size pit for fish.. but again one would need the plastic liner, pump, some form of electricty to run the pump to provide the air for the fish.

Myplanet2: Probably need to provide for air filtration too. Wash the air coming in.

Carol: That depends... as if the air vent was a u-tube facing down to the ground.. much of that is safe.. as air would have to go up as compared to drop down. One could easily attach filters at different junctures if needed.

Myplanet2: It wouldn't be hard to rig something to bring air in I've been thinking about converting an exercise bicycle for multiple uses. Take the tire off and put a pulley on instead.

Carol: I've even see them rigged to grind flour

Jack: An excellent way to generate electricity

Myplanet2: Could use it to connect to an alternator to charge batteries. Could use it to pump water, or air

Jack: Hook one up to an alternator and you've a way to charge batteries.

Myplanet2: ...but you'd probably want something more automatic to bring air in. Most venting systems I know of are powered. Might be some sort of gravity system possible.

Have to explore that.

Carol: Pumps are best for water below the surface. Even if one were to store water underground this could be arranged several ways. With our house here we have a cathcment system where the water is collected off the roof and flows into a catchment tank. The problem is with electricity as a pump is required to move the water from the pump to the house. I was thinking of purchasing a generator.. but again why put money in something that requires oil?

My friend is designing some windmills where air is captured.. through a wind tunnel and used to help airiate the water for the fish. Something like that might also be usefull for underground but again one is dependent upon wind for it to work.

Myplanet2: An electrical free venting system would be easy if you were assured of a temperature differential inside to outside.

Carol: Hmm, what about a EMF? How would that impact electrical systems?

Myplanet2: Hot air rises, cool sinks. You'd just need draw strings and a spring flap like on a diesel exhaust. Open them up and away you go.

The considerations are with heat loss. (probably not so much in Hawaii)

Carol: They had something like that in the earthships (Taos, New Mexico)

My Planet: Temperature regulation is pretty easy underground.

Carol: At the back of the structure there were skylights that popped open to allow for flow of air from front to back.. also there were tubes/conduits that were down on the ground from front of the structure to the inside back of the structure

Myplanet2: If it's real hot though, venting becomes really important

Carol: Those were to bring in cool air

Carol: Most underground structures can be hot or cold. Ideally, earthships were buried 4 feet down which gave a constant tempreture in the 70s no matter how hot or cold it was outside. What we may do is the type of structure I saw which had layers.. going down into the ground.

The upper layer was designed as a greenhouse. I may have those plans around somewhere as I did find it on the net

Myplanet2: I saw some plans for cold climates that used lots of rocks buried in the ground with liquid filled tubes running through them. Just worked by convection. heated in winter, cooled in summer.

I saw a cool Utube video on one of those earthships. Solar through a wall of windows, recycling water three or four times. plants for air etc. Carol. The system I tried to describe above is called the "passive stack ventilation" system.

Google found some PDF descriptions but little by way of websites with illustrations. It's basically two pipes. One at the top of the space, and the other extending to the floor. They both vent to the outside, and assume a difference in temperature, top to bottom, creating a convection. Or a difference in temp inside to outside.

For a small space, it should move enough air to keep it well vented, and it would always be running, with no power, although a mechanical assist would be easy to rig if you needed to give it a boost.

The only hazards I can think of would be contaminants in the outside air being drawn in, or something falling on one or both vent openings, cutting off the air movement.

The second could be worked around by surfacing the vents beside or between a couple of boulders.

The contaminants are harder because I don't think passive filtration systems would be up to filtering the types of contaminants which you'd be concerned about. Even the best mechanical/electrical ones don't usually cover all potential hazards.

That's about what I found out/think on our venting. provision.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

Baggywrinkle: and for ventilation, check this out from the rubicon. These guys actually do everything they talk about http://www.alpharubicon.com/basicnbc/safefanwar.htm

Safe Room Squirrel Cage Fan* Fan in a can.

and this.. Super Strong Geodesic Dome Frame tuttle tuff shelters
ttp://turtletuffshelters.com/

Two models: Galapagos-24ft. & Snapper-16ft.

“Galapagos-24” -9ft high, 24ft dia, 452ft/sq
-High R Value insulation, floor, stove, solar lighting, clear hot house covers avail.

“Snapper-16” -8ft high, 16ft dia, 200+ ft/sq

-Same great features as the Galapagos-24
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:17 AM   #3
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Post Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

Good idea thanks for the info.
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

Nice ideas but, I am somewhat confused.

Having read previously that we may be under water, not just britain, would underground be a good idea.

If you were high in mountains then obviously you would be able to use caves, if any but you would be limited by the size of caves as rock being harder then soil to manipulate.

Besides the fact that what I read stated that there would be no place to hide as searches can be done even underground. So how would you hide yourselves?

The air filtration, well, another unknown as we would not know what exactly would be in the air, i dare say a stacked system of scrubbers would help.

A charging system is a fantastic idea, as long as the air supply is good and circulatory, batteries give off a lot of toxic gases when charging, so maybe better to store batts outside to reduce problems.

Solar??, small fans run from a 6v system could help circulate air with little maintenance. I also read there would possibly be high winds, so why not use it for power instead of a power driven item to create power. I have done a fair bit of research on wind power and rather then use a turbine, which if not self furling can cause problems, instead use a drum turbine.

Sorry for yapping, but just a few thoughts.
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

If one plans to be underground and cut off from outside air (which might be needed if there were "water over the ground") one might need air scrubbers. Has anyone done any research on this? I'm just at the "getting the earth sheltered/UG house built stage" - so much to think of...
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

Quote: "one might need air scrubbers."

Read above mate.....

I am researching in to this now.
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

Sorry, Ammit, I saw stacked system and my eyes went right over the word scrubbers - probably because when I've seen air pipes for UGs, they've been stacked, but still open to the outside air, and my mind just created that image and went on. Minds are funny things!

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Old 11-28-2008, 06:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

One thinks this thread is very posh, can't one get a man in to sort out the ventilation??
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

LOL Swanny
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

With condensation beng an issue in an enclosed space there are units available to pull the moisture out of the air.. the water collected could go into a gravity fed Big Berkey water filtration system and used to drink.

http://www.damprid.dsiwebbuilder.com....asp?cat=40058

http://www.allergybegone.com/noneldeh.html

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c..._2031_45858753 $7.89
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Last edited by Carol; 11-28-2008 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

going into mountain caves is a good idea but can be quite risky...don`t go too deep without any carbon monoxyde monitor..better to have a multi-gas-monitor in hand...there are different gases (no smell) that can await someone seeking shelter in a cave...these gases can knock someone out (kill) before he can react.

a air filter in a shelter should be one using active charcoal filters..the air pump will require electric power..manual power generators would be best in case of power outage.

shelters are not submarines.(not even airtight fallout shelters)..should a shelter get submerged, then it gets interesting...how long can one live on the remaining air..(very difficult calculation) (not long) in the worst case, the shelter gets flooded and there might just be a small air bubble left..then what? having pure medical oxygen bottles ready might help a bit but the buildup of carbon dioxide will lead to asphyxation. so how long will one be able to breathe pure medical oxygen?.or rather: how much oxygen does the presurized bottle hold?

it seems that fully ready scuba diving equipment should be kept at all times..it buys some time to find a way out while being more or less mobile/flexible..

should circumstances other than flooding prevent air supply from outside, then the best thing is:

CARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBING! which is not easy..there are lots of sites that tell you how to make your own carbon dioxide scrubbing mixture..but the "chemicals" needed have to be handled with great care and risk of wrong dosage or accident in a stress situation is very high..there is some info on how to make your own "rebreather" , where you keep breathing your recycled breath after it went through a carbon dioxide scrubber..again here it is quite a complicated task to get it right in a stress situation...and those rebreathers usually don`t make it long...
there are different methods to take out carbon dioxide from the air but most are quite complex ...and don`t think that a few plants will do it...they need lots of light for that..otherwise they add to the co2 buildup. (don`t forget to have a co2 monitor as well)

during operation summer pulse 04, the us navy had submarine emergency exercises going on, using a new and very simple kind of carbon dioxide scrubber that looks like a white cloth/sheet, which can be taken out of a box and be hanged like a towel for drying on a rope..it does the carbon dioxide scrubbing very well and is almost failsafe and easy to handle....

a couple of years ago i inquired about those scrubbers and found that a metal box with lots of sheets and unlimited shelf life cost nearly 600usd. a cheaper version (non metal box) with only limited shelf life was around 400 usd ....

too expensive! so i did not buy any ... and unfortunately i can`t remember the producing company`s name..i got the paper somewhere and i`ll look for it should anybody be interested...or maybe someone else already knows which company it is and could let me know, before i turn my house inside out....

Last edited by capreycorn; 11-28-2008 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:56 PM   #12
capreycorn
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Default Re: Cheap Ventilation System for Underground Shelters

things should be kept simple...



now how useful is this kind of gas mask?

this would be cool:



http://www.coaleducation.org/technol...e_Chambers.htm

"cheap" it`s not..but it will do the job for sure..


POTASSIUM SUPEROXIDE
or check out this website:

http://www.molecularproducts.com/

Last edited by capreycorn; 11-28-2008 at 10:25 PM.
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