Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

[shaberon]

This forced its way into my attention due to ongoing bad news.


There are a few months of violence in Assam similar to a small civil war, and, the idea of "Khalistan", is it a "Sikh separatist movement", or, is it the case that the Constitution of India is just not for everyone?


What we are seeing are reactions to Hindutva, something like a Big India that always has the right solutions.

If Ukraine shows us what this comes down to, then, India may be the next thing to a Big Ukraine.


I would say it is already a borg with probably over 500 million adherents, something like the total population of Europe and the United States together, which will probably function as the Indian contingent of that which is dreaded about our Green Nazis.

As a bit of preparation, since most English speakers are completely unprepared to contend with them, fortunately, there is an easy Rebuke.


It is a situation where we got a plain warning in English, on something that is not understood by most Indians.


As a casual student of Sanskrit lore, I have seen numerous questions and discussions that indicate to me that a lot of Indians have difficulties with their own culture at a somewhat low level.

This, I think, makes them susceptible to some intellectuals who have developed a fairly obnoxious spam method of "scholarship". Obvious short comings such as out of context quotes with no sources, pooling unrelated quotes, or stockpiling reams of unnecessary information and gross repetition. I guess it is really difficult for anyone to surmount this existential mire. There are still some very good brains, but their number is small.

The whirlpool is of course conjoined with political nationalism.

Just to read that back to them, a nation is a culture, not the country of India or its government. As we have told everybody that if you have a culture, such as Welsh, Kurdish, or whatever, you must hang on to this and not let it get whitewashed. That is the thing you defend, not an imaginary line across land.


I found an almost one-man operation providing the fairly simple solution, who around around 1993 began writing against Hindutva:


Shrikant Talageri and Out of India Theory


about the same time as she did:


Arundhati Roy


And I notice that is around the same time I was internalizing these lessons of early Theosophy.

The Theosophical Society was paved and replaced by these other forces.

And their nefarious wares keep percolating up as in this Avalon thread where we discussed Vimana. The real thing is very interesting, but, we also found how insidious the whole Hindutva is.



It is roughly correct that the culture of India had been leached by colonists such as Portuguese, French, and even Moravians in addition to the British. What we call Theosophy was an arrangement out of an odd seeming triangle of south Indian, Sikh, and Tibetans, who were interested in someone writing for them in English.





A. Swami of Jaipur told Olcott:

...eight years before, in Tibet, one of them, known as Jivan Singh Chohan, had told him that he need not be discouraged about the religious state of India, for they had arranged that two Europeans, a man and a woman, should soon come and revive the Eastern religions. This date corresponds with that of the formation of our Society at New York...




The main thing that appealed to them in Europe was the discovery by Crookes of Plasma (Luminous Matter) in 1879. There is also a little-known theory by the Materialist Baron d'Holbach which reasons its way to the conclusion that consciousness must also be some form of matter. The Mahatmas agree that this is correct in a way that is above/beyond Plasma as the Fourth State of matter. Recently we put the advances in a thread on Plasma, and, while not totally solved, certainly appears to be the right approach in a scientific sense.




1882


But we soon find the removal of something like the Books of Hermes as related in The Mahatma Letters in reaction to the British bombardment of Alexandria, 1882:


The Egyptian operations of your blessed countrymen involve such local consequences to the body of Occultists still remaining there and to what they are guarding, that two of our adepts are already there, having joined some Druze brethren and three more on their way.


So, there seem to be reasons for the disappearance of the early Theosophical western adepts, but in terms of the east, several other things happened that year.

After entering Bombay in 1879, there was the establishment of:


Theosophical Headquarters in India after 1882, Madras


Near there:


Mahatma Narayan.

He was living near Arcot, not far from Madras, when H.P.B. and Col. Olcott saw him about April 30, 1882.


Hilarion Smerdis went through Bombay to Tibet for initiation in 1882.

There was the publication of an 1882 Calcutta reply to Brian Hodgson that lists eighty-five Nepalese Buddhist texts known to them.



October 1—H.P.B. is at Ghum


It is in the middle of a post, but, the story of Ghum and Kalimpong is fascinating and is exactly how Buddhism "emerged" back out of Tibet.


This means that the first western convert to Buddhism entered this rather unusual area where people just don't go.

No one can be the first one and do the real thing again.


Unfortunately for India, she was doing this right after the foiling of the plot:


1882, March 26—Swâmi Dayânanda Sarasvatî lectures in Bombay and launches an attack denouncing the Founders and the T.S. (Ransom, 169).


April, 1882:

As a consequence of all this, we declare the alliance between the Theosophical Society and the Arya Samaj broken.


His "brother", Bhaskaranand Sarasvati, wrote the initial paper for The Oriental Department, 1891.



D. Sarasvati is probably the best example of the worst kind of Theosophical failure. There are more details about the Mahatmas opposing his nationalism. What was happening was well-known. Then we find him becoming successful by re-interpreting critical Sanskrit terms like "Dharma" and talking about airplanes in the Rg Veda. This is what is in the Hindutva Youtube videos. Same Arya Samaj.


Then Original Theosophy was replaced by a pseudo, and Swami Vivekenanda presented Buddhism that way at the World Religions festival, and the message basically erased. This Hindutva stuff has grown in almost unimpeded.


To clarify, it means originally, D. was given the task of being the native Indian to comment Pali and Sanskrit texts to the T. S. Founders. When the time came to do it, that is, when they got there around 1879, nemesis reared its head and this dispute sprawled out and that one was final.



Someone was trying to revive something since at least 1870, and what has happened wasn't it.

Real Theosophy would have no intent other than to salvage Hindu and Buddhist wisdom from whatever "western experts" might do to it. It can't add or change anything. It can only guide us to the better versions.


The Out of India Theory is not about the human race, it is about India being an independently-arisen Gangetic culture, and not that of the nationalists.

If you try to human race it, genetics of Haplogroup U are spread across Europe and Asia at an age of about 40-50,000 years--but there is only one known specimen of the original unmodified Basal U which is only about 20,000 years old which is in Siberia at Mal'ta Buret. In turn, this is their oldest settlement of stone dwellings and tools. Then, it is approximately from here that Haplogroup U migrates to India in the Ice Age.


Arya Samaj could not have known that, because it is from studies that were not even started until 2014ish, and in a way it means they may be similar but Indians are a much earlier move than the similar group in Iran.


We will consult what is considered the oldest literature in the world.



Rg Veda


So if we ask Talageri what was "in" India that is its own source, i. e., influence flowed out from India, instead of there being "Vedic Aryan invaders" or the like, we easily get unknown information as if it were brand new in the 2020s.

This is talking about the actual scripture.


Who is Emperor Bharata?


In Rg Veda, he is already a legendary ancestor.


The name is used again later by another person, but, for the original:


The first is the Bharata of the Rigveda. He is mentioned in the oldest book of the Rigveda, Book 6, (in VI.16.4, which refers to a Bharata in the singular: Griffith takes it as a reference to the ancestral Bharata, "Bharata of old", while most other translators take it as a reference to Divodāsa as a descendant of Bharata, i.e. as a member of the Bharata clan).

Also, their family deity, Bhāratī (practically a Rigvedic predecessor of Bhāratmātā) is one of the Three Great Goddesses of the Rigveda revered in all the ten Āprī-Sūktas (Family Hymns).



It talks about "Bharatas" a lot, as in descendants, a clan, but the individual Bharata is not present and only implied.


Concerning the characters that are presently active in the text, the main one and the Battle of Ten Kings are forgotten:


This is the most important historical event in the Rig Veda.

The very first hero, whom nobody talks about, was Sudasa, a Tritsu-Bharata king who lived on the eastern bank of the Parushni (River Ravi).

Not many people know of this great Indian, no text book ever mentions him.



The question, is this person or battle in any Purana? Not a single response.


This is a strong rupture between Vedas and Puranas.


The memory literally appears to be wiped out:


I am surprised that there is no mention of the war in any subsequent book or Puranas.


This "begins" most likely because King Divodasa had been defeated, and turned to Bharadwaja for assistance. It starts that way, and appears to culminate in Ten Kings, a few generations later.




With the internet we can now find several articles from just the past few years that are re-loading Talageri's material and some of them are allright and some use it for other purposes.

He is current and responds to events of just days ago:


The following article by aljazeera contains the incredible statement: "Hindutva refers to a century-old right-wing movement that aims to create an ethnic Hindu state out of a multicultural India, home to more than 200 million Muslims". Apparently, everyone on this earth has just stepped on this planet yesterday and have no idea of exactly which ideology led to a "century-old right-wing foreign-inspired movement that aimed to create, and actually succeeded in creating, an ethnic Muslim state out of a multicultural India, only home to more than 1.6 billion Hindus or followers of the native religions of India":

Dismantling Hindutva



"An International Virtual Conference on "Dismantling Global Hindutva" was held between 10-12 September 2021. It was cosponsored by the departments of over 53 Universities from all over the USA, including Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Cornwell and Northwestern, and over 1100 academicians from all over the world signed a statement of solidarity expressing their full support for the conference....


A couple responses:


It is a fact that the adherents of the Vedic sect appropriated the popular gods by creating stories now found in the Puranas and interpolated all ancient Sanskrit texts including the Ramayana (by adding the Bala Kanda and Uttara Kanda) and Bhagavad Gita with a view to establish the superiority of a particular community and to show that everything emanated from the Vedas.


Brahmins appropriated all the spiritual things of native people of different states (Upanishads, Gods, rituals, customs, ideologies etc etc) & tricked Indians all over the country into submitting to their supremacy with the help of hypnotism. They even degraded their own Indra for non-Vedic Shiva, Krishna because those cockroaches wanted to infiltrate into all societies. You've brilliantly identified the scamsters. Now, let's remove Uttara kanda, Bala kanda & modify Bhagavad Gita and establish Hinduism 2.0.



How do you do that? How do you actually not know what is in your original scripture??

What is worse is the thing is not only interesting, but quite simple.

It is *not* linear. The books are not in chronological order, and the hymns in the books are not in order either.

They were originally in order of increasing size.


Here is one link where someone has charted out the oldest book, Mandala VI. The whole site however does not carry this amount of detail on most of the other pages.

That is the first one, and the overall ten books called Mandalas can easily be sectioned into Old Books and New Books that have obvious and consistent differences.

Book Six starts or teaches nothing. It is written as if the mythology it uses was understood in a common way.

Similarly, I would suggest the whole thing is written backwards. The last book, Mandala Ten, is where we find all the antecedents--important lineage heads such as Mandhatr or Prithu, three kinds of Creation myths, Parasurama, and Pururuvas, who personally appears to be the head of the whole system. Parasurama appears to be both an author, and also a subject in X.93.14:


This I proclaim in the presence of Duśīma, Pṛthavāna, Vena, the mighty Rāma, and (other)opulent (princes); those who (come), having yoked five hundred (chariots), their affection for us is renowned on the road.





If Pururavas had developed a system centuries before the first recorded events, then, no, there was no need of writing anything down about it.


There is no tangible connection from Mandhatr to Manu, there is no type of story about Manu becoming the first man like Adam or surviving a flood like Noah. Those stories are in the Puranas. The Vedas don't have any more ancestry beyond the fathers of the actors in them. A suggestion about a first man and his children would seem rather silly. If you said that to a "prehistoric person" he might think something was wrong with you.


Pururavas is merely named in I.31 where, with the Bhasya or commentary, it is evident that he is indeed the Vedic system.

Mandala Ten has the Hymn of Pururavas and Urvashi:

It is the first Indo-European love-story known, and may even be the oldest love-story in the world. Its history throughout the whole range of Sanskrit literature is astonishing. The story itself can be regarded from several points of view—all of them interesting. Firstly, it is a tale of a great love, full of deep feeling and real pathos. Its beauty is quite sufficient to immortalise it, whatever else we may read in it. Secondly, it contains incidents which strike one as distinctly symbolical, and immediately open up that ever-fascinating pursuit of theorising. Thirdly, it has a distinct historical and anthropological value, and is without doubt the earliest example of nuptial taboo in existence.

So, he did not write the hymn and people started talking about a new thing; he wrote it towards something already known.


The other verse is incredibly significant.

It could be challenged as a proper name, for instance from Sri Aurobindo:


the mind of many cries (lit. to Manu Pururavas)


or taken as a person by Griffith:


pious Purūravas



If you get that--you would have a man named for his own legend. In other words, it is almost certainly not someone's correct, original name. Which again may suggest it is a spiritual, mental force, as contrasted with Nahusa who is called "mortal".


Aurobindo's page at least gives us the Sanskrit and the name of the composer:


hiraṇyastūpa āṅgirasa



The Angiras Sages are the most important ones in the Rg Veda. The oldest book is by the Bharadwajas, that is, their first allied or junior branch. In this later hymn, Agni is addressed in a peculiar way that is used very selectively, that is the:


Most Angiras

How selective? Out of over a thousand hymns, it comes up about ten times throughout all periods in multiple books VII-X.


We understand that means the clan of, if not the or a personal name of, Buddha:


For the Gautama gotra there are these pravaras: Angiras, Āyāsya, Gautama


This is plainly given in the Pali:


...according to some, Angirasa was a personal name given by the Buddha's father in addition to Siddhatha (ThagA.i.503. It is worth noting that in AA.i.381 Siddhattha is referred to as Angīrasa Kumāra.)


Which, similarly, is recognized on a Hindu site:



According to Vinaya Pitaka Buddha pays respects to Angiras along with other Saptarishis whom he considered to represent the pure Vedas.


It is not 100% certain that Angirases were the first physical people doing practices:


Viswamitra read about it and in the Rig Veda and he introduced the Adhimantha (rubbing Arani sticks together) to start the Yagna fire.

The Angirasas adopted the yajna and soma practices from the Bhrigus.



In the other direction, it is possible that devotees of the Bhrgu Atharva Veda are what we call Zoroastrians. In Rg Veda, the ideological foes, Dasyus, are not explained very well, although several times they are called "riteless". It would probably be accurate to say that the Indian Homa specifically means a fire offering, and, the Mazdaean practices forbid this. It is fairly clear in the Veda that its system was not followed by "foreigners", or, by some Indians.


With the paucity of personal names, Aurobindo did not pick up on I.31 because if you wanted to make a "first man" argument, it is exactly in this place. This is speaking of Nahusa the individual, or else the "generations of Nahusa", who is a critically important patriarch:



tvām ǀ agne ǀ prathamam ǀ āyum ǀ āyave ǀ devāḥ ǀ akṛṇvan ǀ nahuṣasya ǀ viśpatim ǀ

iḷām ǀ akṛṇvan ǀ manuṣasya ǀ śāsanīm ǀ pituḥ ǀ yat ǀ putraḥ ǀ mamakasya ǀ jāyate ǁ


The gods made thee, O Agni , the first, living for a living, the Lord of creatures, of man; {they} made Ila  a tutoress of man, when my son  is born from the father .


Such an argument is already in the traditional version included by Wilson:


Commentary by Sāyaṇa: Ṛgveda-bhāṣya

Nahuṣa was the son of Āyus, son of Purūravas, who was elevated to heaven as an Indra.



I don't really care about the genealogy that much. What is noticeable is if I look for the origins of spiritual practices, then the system of Pururavas and Nahusa is what it turns out to be. It is completely metaphysical. Any literal meaning would be pointless. The "literal people" are Angiras Sages.

The term "Buddhism" would be misleading if not understood as an Angiras and Pururavas practice.

Until a few days ago, I would have said that I do not know very much about the Rg Veda, other than the nucleus that we have in Buddhism is in Hymn I.31. It is this through the system of Abhayakaragupta in the 1200s when the Mughals showed up. So I understand this. Or I understand the mysticism that is in the symbols. And now when I look through the book, it appears to be all about setting up this system, and, after the final victory, was forgotten.

Why do I, as an American Buddhist convert, need to be the one to point this out?

I understand their Vedic Rishis from the inside and come to find out they lost track of how India started.

Did they put the Sages out of business? It is blatantly obvious they made a library originally as the domain of one family, which, over time, spread out and allowed anyone to participate. And then they lose the ability. But the hymn is about the ability. The Veda is practically about the ability to write Vedas!


The thing describes multiple modes of creation, such as by Purusha, Hiranyagarbha, Devi. It's not a competition. They should be considered simultaneously true.


The critics revile what they seem to call Puranic Hinduism. Here is an example. In the Vedas there is no Flood Myth. In Matsya Purana you have an Indian Noah. Then you have a watered-down Hinduism as we think it is trying to tell a version of the Bible or something. It is not. Key elements of the Bible such as lineal descent from Adam and survival of the Great Flood are specifically excluded from the Vedas.

They are actually about something else.

The Puranas were written around two thousand years after the Vedas. They are not scriptures.

The second issue is that because the Vedas can be determined to be a type of historical document, and, it matches archaelogical evidence of a certain age, that age does not support the incredibly ancient figures from the Puranas.

The strongest likelihood is that the Vedas refer to real events around what we would call 2,000 B. C. E.

Nothing suggests it could realistically be vast ages before this or have to do with territories away from India.

Those are some of the main types of arguments or false beliefs that have been promoted.



For my personal purposes, Talageri's blog site is a bit heavy with a twenty year dispute with Michael Witzel, a German Indologist, who, perhaps not too surprisingly, is a big primary source on Wikipedia.

Or, according to author R. Kurup:

The article is by Michael Witzel, a particularly vicious, anti-Hindu propagandist who’s only agenda is to put down all Indian traditions. Probably Church sponsored.

It is safe to ignore such people.

The Vedas have no Caste locked by birth:


But in ancient days it was not compulsion that the Varna's of father and son should same , for example Vishwamitra father Raja Fashi was a Kshatriya and Vishwamitra born as Kshatriya and later became Brahmin on the basis of his pennance .



Seeing as the patriarchs of Sage lineages are "Pravaras", after the Vedic period, anyone similar is supposed to be called an Avara or "younger". In a strict view, anything new is false.

The Mahabharata roughly says that the devastated Sages went away from society. That is why what moves forward is Yoga:



Rishis were intersted in knowing the cosmic structure and its services. Yogeshwar is intersted in the connectivity to the Almighty creator. Their times ended with Dwaper Yuga. Kali Yuga Dharma is ordained differently. Religion means Yoga of union with divine consciousness which Yogeshwars attained. Dharma is path of artful living promoted by Sages, Rishis and Munis. Bharat had no boundaries. Whereever the people live attached to Bhagwan is Bharat.


The hymns of the Vedas are primarily practiced by males since, in a certain view, they protect and restore the otherwise easily-damaged male DNA. The Sage Gotras, therefor, are a method of tracking which intends to keep female DNA from mixing back without six or seven degrees of separation. She has to be from another Gotra, and she cannot gain or acquire her husband's Gotra. She can be renamed for the male Gotra because she has nothing to do with the Y chromosome passed along.


If you do not have the DNA, it is not an exclusive society, but it does mean how you will interface depends on Gotra:


First is to adopt the Kashyap gotra as Rishi Kashyap is the ultimate progenitor Maharishi of all humanity.

A second option is to adopt the Gotra of your birth Moon lunar mansion.

Third option is to adopt the Gotra of your family Brahmin Purohit.



So if you go to Buddhism, you have default gone to Gautama Gotra in a mental way as if a "family Brahmin". We said it was a form of Yoga. It is not the full physical thing with an Orthodox Brahmanical temple. That makes sense in the terminology just given.

Most of what is here is symbolic, such as sacrifice. This is where Purana is useful, i. e. descriptions and stories to flesh out the symbols and myths the Veda is using, but obviously this is a double-edged sword. Makes it possible to discard or change anything.

Sri Venkateswara has so much money he is under investigation for possibly unbalancing the whole economy.

There are perhaps numerous types of disfigurements, and unfortunately the popular one is rather extreme nationalists. I am not saying that very many of them may commit random acts of violence, but, the mentality and associated beliefs are quite common. Something like Zionism.

[shaberon]

As I expected, some noise will trickle through about this.


I did not know it was a stock phrase since at least '93, but, when they advise forming an identity based on something like "Hindu-you-ness", to what are they referring?



All the references that show Hindu is a word in Vedas or Puraans are incorrect, and this word is added in those scriptures after invasion.

Greeks gave that name.

Reason: Because there was no concept of religion in Hinduism, it came from western world.

The name of the Country was Bharat and people were called Bharatwasi or Bhartiye in Dwapur yug.

In Treta yug, it was called as Aryewart

In Satyug, it was called as Devbhoomi or Himanchal (Anchal of Himalaya).





Does word Hindu exist in the religious scripture? Which scripture define it?

No, the word HINDU is not found in any Indian text.

We follow a religion of no-name - others name it we don’t, but still we have adopted the term “hindu” for the sake of administration and classification.

Our religion is simply DHARMA.


It is an exonym given by foreigners, such as "Elam" is believed to mean "highlander" as applied from the outside and not used amongst themselves. It just means they live near a river which is now mostly in Pakistan. But Pakistan is an arbitrary border shaped by modern statecraft. In the process, the British also "gave" them their own Laws of Manu, which is just a philosophy book. It is not a Constitution or representative of any actual state or legal system, just a popular guide book.

So you have not-really-their-laws given to people identifying themselves through a foreign name.


But, it is an economic powerhouse, and the world will deal with it regardless of the beliefs.


India is something with currently enough power to ignore "suggestions" from Washington, or squeaks from Canada.

This is how you recognize it in true geo-political diplomacy just the other day in the words of Putin:

"We are aware of and see the scenarios they are using in Asia. I would like to say that the Indian leadership is independent and strongly nationally oriented. I think these attempts are pointless, yet they continue with them," he added.

"In fact, anyone who acts independently and in its own interests is immediately seen by the Western elite as a hindrance that must be removed," the Russian leader continued.

In his words, in many Western countries the ruling elite is forcing societies to accept norms and rules that a significant number of people are unwilling to embrace. But they are still urged to do so, and the authorities continually inventing justifications for their actions, attributing growing internal problems to external causes, and fabricating or exaggerating non-existent threats.

So he is politely giving awareness that they are strong nationalists.


Fortunately, they are not at the point where Ukraine still took over a hundred shots at Donbass today.

But, according to Mohini Roy, a similar attitude is held by many.



Now it is interesting that there are not just one, but two, national Epics.

The first or earliest, Ramayana, has events that occurred relatively shortly after the events known in Mandala X of Rig Veda.

The Mahabharata was probably somewhat after the actual written form of the fourth or Atharva Veda. This is the standard mode of analysis these days, with many old texts you can only determine a "before and after" sequence, i. e. the writing is after the event but you don't know if that means one year or a hundred. However, the sequence can then be lined up to external information providing a better idea of the date. For example I think you can find a Spoked Wheel in some of the New Books of Rig Veda, which determines that it represents the transition out of solid wheels because there are still carts in the early times.


Ramayana does not sound like a "country", and Mahabharata is highly political.

I personally would suggest reading them symbolicly as if they were explaining the vague details of the Vedas. The Battle of Ten Kings may simply be copied over as the Mahabharata War, and subsequently forgotten in its original name.

It may be a compound of multiple stories.

It will not bear analysis as a cause for any kind of rabid nationalism particularly claiming it to be continuous and true since 3,102 B. C. E.

Whether Ten Kings was intentionally disappeared by writing the Epic, or, by later followers, is hard to tell.

Vedic identity is meager, and most of the nationalist arguments rely almost solely on Mahabharata and some Puranas.


As another example, some Puranas say that Buddha Dharma is a valid branch of the same thing, and that Buddha was the Ninth Avatar of Vishnu.

Agni Purana says that Buddha was the avatar who cleaned the earth of heretics by preaching false doctrines that made them fall into hell.


With some exceptions, the historical "struggle" of Buddhism and Hinduism is probably exaggerated.

It may be a bit easy for a person to develop racist and sectarian views if conditioned by certain veins of this literature. That is because in some cases, the actors were sectarian racists themselves. Then we get a political movement since at least 1882 that is given a modern country in 1947.

I wish it was a dark closet but these people are saying it is more like half the population.

[shaberon]

Here are a few snips from the experiences of A. Betagiri, someone like me who rejects their own culture for one primary reason--and to the level of the Constitution of the country:

Hinduism, or Brahminism, in its essence I would argue, is pure caste-hatred.

Though Brahmins claim the Vedas as their holy texts, the religion that we find in the Vedas themselves has little to do with contemporary Brahminism.


Scholars who see Bhagavatism as a unitary religion, forming a phase in the evolution of Brahminism, often overlook the existence of disparate Brahminical sects. But since Bhagavatism was the more dominant, and therefore central, sect, they see it as the reinvention of Brahminism itself. Bhagavatism can be seen as the Brahminical equivalent of the Protestant Christian revolution. It became very popular among the masses by allowing them to reach God directly through the path of Bhakthi marga (the path of devotion). It was this Bhagavatism, which branched into various smaller sects like Sri Vaishnavism and Ramanand-ism. These smaller sects were then brought together, nationalised and reinvented in the nineteenth century as 'Hinduism'.

Although this is an extremely simplified account of the religious sects of India through the ages, I hope it shows that there is little, if anything, that is common about the various sects that go by the name of 'Hinduism'. Yet, Mohandas Gandhi, who became the secular face of Hinduism in the twentieth century, outlined what he called the backbone of 'Hinduism' or Sanatana Dharma. This backbone was the varna system. He believed that the varna system and its concomitant karma theory were the very foundation of ‘Hinduism’. And any attempt to get rid of the varna system would not only dismantle the unity of ‘Hinduism’ but would result in the disintegration of India itself. 'Hinduism' had to be preserved to keep India together. This politicisation of 'Hinduism' by Gandhi (which is perhaps a more secular version of the anti-Islamic, Brahmin-supremacist, nationalist and racist Hinduism, or Hindutva, put forward by V.D. Savarkar) is directly responsible for the rise of communal political parties in India. This also led to the perpetuation of 'Hinduism' as a religion defined solely by caste-hatred. Thus, those of us who are extremely proud and fond of the Indian past, have no way of protesting against caste discrimination, and the systematic apportioning of hatred in the varna system, without totally rejecting 'Hinduism' as it is defined today.

Looking back at what Putin said a few days ago, one thing stands out.

Whenever he complains about western governments, he is always willing to add "but we don't think they represent the interests of the people".

He says the Indian government is nationalistic *without* any kind of split from popular will. It's not a secretive ruling elite, it's more of everybody.

It is hard to be exactly sure but it seems there must have been a point ca. 1,000 B. C. E. that started making a religion and a caste system by the time of Buddha. Then Emperor Ashoka got rid of the castes. Then they came back.

If you followed a non-caste Vedic system you were an Arya. Pretty sure that is what the Battle of Ten Kings was about. And it is not "Aryan" which is a Max Mueller invention that reads a little differently doesn't it?


This, of course, is where the Buddhists should come out and say, well, we don't have any castes, we do attempt to accurately convey the Vedic practice, or, we don't force it on you. There is a choice, but what you cannot have is a false understanding of the Vedas, or practices of inequality due to being born.

That's amazing that it would make someone walk out of their country for that reason, or, Indians calling other Indians the Nazis.

On a global basis then if they are in America or Germany, you're not a lower caste so you don't see this. But a Muslim might for that reason.

It is like saying 3,000 years of trends coalesced in the words of D. Sarasvati.

Bear in mind the author above is an atheist and atheism is compatible with most of the "Hindu" philosophy, so it is neither about God nor is that the direction of the complaint. Sounds like a bunch of psycho-sociological engineering.

[Agape]

Dear Shaberon , there is always due amount of bad news in the papers, that goes without saying and people get provoked trying to search for the “fault”.

No matter how profound your analysis is it does not explain or substantiate human violence and suffering.

Your long scholastic analysis could be very difficult to appreciate for non-Sanskrit scholars who did not read and study most of the scriptures quoted by you.

It’s little unfortunate if we don’t have many Indian Sanskrit Pandits among members of this forum who could be entertained and discuss with you in proper.

So with regards to your scholarly expertise I strongly suggest contributing to some of today’s Indian papers and discussion groups who are on your level of understanding because there are many , their opinions are countless and they are keen to publish as many “views” on the topic as possible .

With respect to the Vedas, they can now be found and read in scriptural form , even in foreign language translations easily , that’s true but in reality,
most of the language and meanings used pertaining to the lore of consciousness and beyond is difficult to capture without direct introduction and guidance from living person.

That’s why the Vedas were taught from mouth to ear transmission called also Guru Shishya Parampara ( Teacher-Student Succession ) for most time of its history ,
for the real benefit of understanding yourself.

Even if say, martial arts are less complicated than workings of your mind , most people do understand that they won’t “learn” them from a book or after few ( even thousand) lessons without practicing them “live”.

Many historical commentaries including those falsely attributed to some other authors were written by scholars “just like you”.

The same way Vedas are nearly useless to secular philosophers of the West,

so is original Buddha Dharma , mostly dead , guess who I think has killed it ,
no one from “outside”, not any “foreign adversary” but its prodigious students and Pandits including monks who replaced their aspiration for enlightenment ( should they have any) with anything from

.search for perfection
.search for recognition
.formal shows and protocols of practices and rituals
.entertainment market of the “spiritual”
.compulsive ( and compulsory in university settings) need to talk, comment and translate and publish
.stereotypical practices Buddha himself never recommended , taught or emphasized such as repetition of mantras or prostration “exercises” in front of his statue ...

and so and so forth.

I have no need to make you sick about the above , or myself and even less need to criticize .

Today’s India is very big country with 1.8 billion populace where everyone is entitled to their religious opinion even while human problems to solve are much bigger than elsewhere it’s still a live culture .

The idea of Hindutva does not make sense anywhere outside of the culture similar to most other cultures and nations of the world who treasure their own unique historical roots ,
it could be loosely interpreted as Ekata - Oneness , Unity in Diversity as it pertains to all “people of India” regardless their religion or caste .

If you don’t live here it can’t make proper sense to you ,
similar to American love for everything American ,
Russian love “only for Russians”
Israeli love for “Israelis only”,
French love of only French,

it is like every other love ..completely irrational and unexplainable item.

Do seriously disturbed people exist ? Do they sometimes kill for their infatuation, obsession, their brain fog and unwillingness to learn ?
How many people are like you , studying about anything -anyone else out of their immediate neighborhood till the old age ?

Perhaps too few yet ..

Please do not despair .

Genuine knowers do exist though they may be rarer in numbers than scholars , famed artists or “people in robes” however,
finding them does always require setting ones own foot on the way.

That said there’s nothing or anyone on the www including myself I could recommend in that respect.

Your holy foot and passage are your own

May Peace Prevail


🙏🦢🙏

[Agape]

In Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Sage Yajjnavalkya explains to his wife Maitreyi :

“For the love of the Self everything else is loved

Your sons and daughters , your parents and teachers
are loved for the love of your Self

For the love of the Self the Gods are loved

For the love of the Self the world and people are loved

“

When the Self realizes the power of its Love

It’s countless infatuations cease to arise.

Therefor meditate on your Love as the Light of the Self

Without second

🙏✨🙏

[Agape]

In Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Sage Yajjnavalkya explains to his wife Maitreyi :

“For the love of the Self everything else is loved

Your sons and daughters , your parents and teachers
are loved for the love of your Self

For the love of the Self the Gods are loved

For the love of the Self the world and people are loved

“

When the Self realizes the power of its Love

It’s countless infatuations cease to arise.

Therefor meditate on your Love as the Light of the Self

Without second

🙏✨🙏


Colophon ; the news got much worse since ..

[shaberon]

Posted by Agape (here)
Dear Shaberon , there is always due amount of bad news in the papers, that goes without saying and people get provoked trying to search for the “fault”.

No matter how profound your analysis is it does not explain or substantiate human violence and suffering.

Your long scholastic analysis could be very difficult to appreciate for non-Sanskrit scholars who did not read and study most of the scriptures quoted by you.

It’s little unfortunate if we don’t have many Indian Sanskrit Pandits among members of this forum who could be entertained and discuss with you in proper.

Here's the thing.

We say we care about Russia and value the presence of Russian posts.

We have things on here about translating Sumerian and Anatolian Seals on a linguistic basis.

Articles about Latin and Greek and churches, Hebrew.

China as if we lived there.

All about figuring out history, and how things were perhaps manipulated, and so on. Myths, astrology, and all the presumed connections.

History is now determined geologically, rather than "Iron Age", etc., and currently we are in the Meghalayan Age which began 4,200 years ago and is marked by the collapse of Indus Valley, Akkadia, Egypt, and Yellow River civilizations. Happens to be named for an Indian stalagmite.


Why is everything about India nearly irrelevant?

If the other three places were mentioned, it might be considered important, but for some reason India--despite having a complex stack of literature coming right out of this Meghalayan point--apparently has less value.


If someone in Assam says:


The tribal people have the Scheduled Tribe (ST) status, whereas the Meitei have been accorded Other Backward Class (OBC) status, with some classified as Scheduled Castes (SC) in certain areas.


Leading to this:

By 14 May, the government's tally of casualties and property damage from the violence stood at 73 dead, 243 injured, 1809 houses burned down, 46,145 people evacuated, 26,358 people taken to 178 relief camps, 3,124 people escorted evacuation flights, and 385 criminal cases registered with the authorities.


I expect we have at least a partial explanation of some organized violence.

It is not a matter of opinion what is in the scriptures or not. They don't include Hinduism or Castes. Those are opinions. The second is the Jesuit internationalist one. It happens to be written into the Constitution. So if anyone is interested in dissecting fraudulent intellectual history, you can look at it that way. But I don't understand why India would be less important because it is in Indian languages.

[Agape]

What I’ve observed from longer anthropological perspective , that’s in both long and short term human history is accelerated but continuous effort to establish “humanity 0.2”.

Today’s young advanced generation of people who are the developers behind complex methods and digital intelligence ,
like all the other new generations before and after

are all taller, ways faster in calculus , more beautiful and more alike.

From GB to Russia to Persia, India to Taiwan , everyone is looking “more Han” these days , blending of lineages , castes , races ..could not be prevented no matter how much they have all tried.

Redundant lineages of humans from before this era do exist discretely but are rare.

What we love the most is witnessing the miracle of Life , miracle of new creation.


But there is a danger of retrograde intelligence pattern always lurking behind.

The mystery of Time that fascinated most of our ancient and modern “scientists” is a code they have also called the greater Wheel of Kalachakra
, the Cosmic Purusha and so forth,

moves a step ahead and two steps back ,thus creates an allusion of Presence.

In short, the Time is Slippery and it drags objects back into Past while only One truest predictable passage can be effortlessly followed to Future.

In deed , the “historian” runs the job market,
the academia, medical industry and so forth
and the architect runs the Pyramid.

The rest like us , is “folk science”.


🍵😅🙏

[shaberon]

Posted by Agape (here)
What I’ve observed from longer anthropological perspective , that’s in both long and short term human history is accelerated but continuous effort to establish “humanity 0.2”.

Today’s young advanced generation of people who are the developers behind complex methods and digital intelligence ,
like all the other new generations before and after

are all taller, ways faster in calculus , more beautiful and more alike.

This is immediately detectable with the presence of industrialization.

Most notably by the Boer War. Military physical requirements being what they are, it was found industrial city kids failed at an alarming rate. This became a main reason for modern Eugenics.

By now, we have digital programmers, not soldiers.



I am not quite sure I could come up with a similar pre-industrial example.

On a large scale, one finds layers of pit dwellers, IVC stone houses, and Arya wooden houses, but it is hard to say much about those changes. In terms of intellectual history, then, yes, you can get examples such as saying Yahweh is the El of Canaan. Manufactured belief. I would say this pattern recurs throughout the Jewish and Christian scriptures in identifiable ways.

The Indian one is similar, only bigger.

However, there is what we might call a normal course of development. Anyone would want to do physical and mental exercises and figure out how to work better. That is wisdom. The reduction of suffering by applying one's experiences wisely.

Then the question is if we get some washing machines and electric lighting, what do we do with the increased leisure?

Then we see what kind of "upgraded individual" comes forward.

I hope a difference can be found between prosperity and nationalistic social engineering, both being a form of growth.

[shaberon]

Now I have found they really muffed it on this.

It is particularly troublesome because "India" is not really any older than "Israel".

Well of course with Israel, it is simple, you see the Solomon's Seal, and it is understood that King Solomon had signet rings with five and six pointed stars, and so this is definitely meaningful.

What is this?




The spinning wheel of the Congress flag was replaced by the Ashoka Chakra from the Lion Capital of Ashoka.


Ok. Is India a Buddhist country?

What are they doing with that thing?

They don't know!

They had just dug it up in 1905:





It has no national symbol. They asked all over the country for years, and could not come up with anything.

This was eventually randomly suggested for no particular reason, and certainly without anything about Emperor Ashoka.


There are only a few things we can be pretty sure of.

He ruled most of modern India except for Kerala, and, shortly afterwards, there were nothing but smaller rival kingdoms until the Constitution.

Ashoka obliterated whatever had started of a "caste system", and it correspondingly took some time to have a resurgence.

Ashoka is the earliest written evidence of Buddhism. He deals with Dharma in a non-sectarian way so that there is no observable difference from "Hindu Dharma". He says that the Greeks do not have the same kind of holy men (Brahmans and Sramanas), but they, too, are subjects of Dharma:


eusebeia


For Platonists, "eusebeia" meant "right conduct in regard to the gods".

EUSEBEIA was the personified spirit (daimona) of piety, loyalty, duty and filial respect. She was the wife of Nomos (Law) and her opposite number was Dyssebeia (Impiety). Her Roman name was Pietas (Piety).

Euenus, Fragment 6 (trans. Gerber, Vol. Greek Elegiac) (Greek elegy C6th B.C.) :

"Drinking [moderately] is beneficial for body, mind and property. It is well suited to the deeds of Aphrodite and to sleep, a haven from toils, and to Hygeia (Health), most pleasing of the gods to mortals, and to Eusebia (Piety), the neighbour of Sophrosyne (Discretion)."


In only one source she is a parent:

NOMOS & EUSEBIA (Orphica Frag 159)

of Dike (Justice and Astraea--Virgo).


leading to Hesychasm:


Pindar, Pythian Ode 8. 1 ff :

"Hesykhia (Hesychia, Tranquility), goddess of friendly intent, daughter of Dike (Justice)."



I don't think there was any confusion here.

It is almost the same as Dharma, Artha, yoga/sadhana/yajna in the Indian sense.

Most Indians do not know who Ashoka was.


Inside the country, his stuff was buried and forgotten. But not in Buddhism.

Well, the Vedas are the same in Tamil Nadu, Bengal, Gujarat, or anywhere. Inexplicable. They are exactly the same and they provide concrete information of people and events. And when we see this, then we are able to determine that India is completely lacking of its own material which actually is pivotal and era-defining:


The world's earliest text and its description of the Battle of Ten Kings, which created the "first India".


A set of nationwide pillars from Asoka, who reigned in the "largest India".



Both of which were Resistance Forces against a "caste system".

Indian National Congress is a Brahmin-privileging caste system.

Those who provide "other information" are digging it out of Puranas or other non-scriptural sources, whereas the two things given above also correspond to external evidence. The first written Sanskrit is from Aleppo 1,380 B. C. E., is possibly the world's first treaty, and uses terms that come from the Rg Veda and not anything else. Conclusion is its events could not really have been later than 1,500 B. C. E., with the likelihood that they were probably somewhat earlier.


I personally have two motivations or interests.

Civilization--the ability to come together as a group, surrender perhaps some "freedoms" in the attempt to change a hardscrabble struggle for existence to a peaceful situation of excess production. This is similar anywhere. India happens to have the oldest and largest examples of it, thousands of years prior to the Vedas.


Sanskrit--coming straight from the very earliest parts of the Vedas through Buddha up to being wiped out by the Mughals. No other culture has any similarity to this. Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, etc., have already been long overthrown and culturally replaced. There is no continuity. India *does* have small threads of continuity, which apparently does not happen to be represented by the current government, educational system, majority of citizens, etc., however Nepal was only partially damaged by the Muslims and was never taken over by the British.


As clouds gathering on the horizon, one could probably say there was a period of Brahmanical distortions and dominance prior to Buddha, perhaps ca. 1,000 B. C. E., which was finished by Ashoka. So far I have not found that it noticeably rebounds as a degrading influence until around the 500s or so.

The first instance is probably the real Kali Yuga. The Vedic times and Ramayana era are supposed to mean a measure of success, that these were Dharma ages and there was peace and prosperity for the most part. After Ashoka, is there anything you can call "India", or some kind of unified culture, no, there isn't. So I think those are very inappropriate national symbols. Those are Buddhist symbols. The government will tell you that.

The main reason for the decline of Ashoka's system was that the principles of Dharma never became a complete body of law. He made some reforms, such as against animal sacrifice, which is merely page one of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. So we already know there is some kind of a deviation or dispute here. But he was pretty limited compared to the amount of legislation of a modern government. Consequently, the areas that were under-developed and stuck in hardscrabble mode never got on board with the more commercial parts, and it is still about the same way.

So it is like Ashoka's job is only half done.

We could use those symbols to do the rest of it.

The "four professions" are in the Rg Veda one time, they are not called "varna", and when this word appears, it means something else.

That is closer to a denial than a construction of a system. The only system really being promoted is a system of meditation.

The Ramayana lists eighty-eight professions without a "Kshaitriya", so it is also negational towards the thing.

There is not one until you trace its origin in the Brahmanas and Dharma Sutras, which are more like shortly before Buddha, than they are anywhere close to the original Rg Veda.

Ashoka saved us a lot of time by showing us how to translate Dharma into English. You don't. It is something which would no longer be meaningful to the Greeks. They got it in Afghanistan. Why have we lost track of that? "Dharma" means something that has literally been sanitized out of both western and Indian experience. It is supposed to be the foundation of civilization.

We have not gotten to that point of "ideal body of law" yet. We seem to still be on "identifying injustices".

Neither the Buddha nor the Vedas is going to give it to us. Dharma does not work like the Ten Commandments. All of these manmade laws for the mortal world can be changed and updated. The absolute or natural laws have more to do with going to hell. Again about like putting your hand on a hot stove.

Dike beating Adikia with a mallet, Athenian red-figure amphora C6th B.C.:




Side B: Ajax with the body of Achilles (not shown).




It has largely been determined that originally, there was "one Veda" which contained *three kinds* of Vedas. The Rks are hymns, Yajur has to do with physical rituals, and the Samas are songs. So you had priests assigned to these three different jobs. The "fourth" Veda or Atharva is not a separate or different category, but continues the previous. It, however, is not a job that can be assigned--the Atharva is the "explainer", meaning the person who has had the realization that is the subject of the three kinds of material. That is why this one appears to be composed last.


The breakdown into four individual books must have been after the final composition of Atharva, and then everything was re-compiled by Vyasa. Notably, he also said there was "a" or one Purana, which he personally split between three disciples.

We cannot be sure exactly when this happened, but, "Vyasa" is also an office, or a job, or a line of pundits, who are designated by the River Beas:

Veda Vyasa, the author of the Indian epic Mahabharata, is the eponym of the river Beas...


So from Wiki we get the first common mistake. Veda Vyasa transmitted the Vedas in their current format. Vyasa Krishna Dvaipayana compiled the Mahabharata, after its events, which may mean a thousand years later than original Vyasa. Both these people and the river itself are historically pivotal:



Before Veda Vyasa, the Vipasa river was known as Saraswati.

Vashishta named the river Vipasa, which means cord-breaker.

Rig-veda calls the river Vipāś, which means unfettered.

Ancient Greeks called it Hyphasis.

The Beas River marks the easternmost border of Alexander the Great's conquests in 326 BCE. It was one of the rivers which created problems in Alexander's invasion of India. His troops mutinied here in 326 BCE, refusing to go any further.


It comes through the Kullu Valley in Himachal Pradesh.


So, for most of its existence, the Rg Veda has been sealed in the cabinet of the appropriate priest.

It has to do with Dharma, and Dharma isn't exactly a "religion".

It does have the system or rite of Pururavas, which arose in the Gangetic Plain, and by a series of agreements, made its way across to Kullu Valley.

It is not a body of law that, for example, compels you to keep doing this. He has composed a system as a vehicle for explaining something. Why? This is how the Rg Veda is utterly unlike, for example, the Bible, because it starts nothing. It reports on something that already happened in the past. It reflects a spoken mythology. It does not have Adam or Noah and the Flood, but it does have Drought, which is the definition of the Meghalayan Age, which wiped out many civilizations, including Gaza.


When we look in the direction indicated, we will find Nirmand in Kullu district, which in fact is a late IVC settlement that is still inhabited.

Some of the non-Vedic foes were the Kiratic peoples of the mountains--and this again will help self-regulate the date, like adjusting a watch. King Shambar who was defeated in Rg Veda is almost certainly the antecedent for the first Kirat King of Kathmandu, Yalambar. And, his time should be earlier than has been believed, counting from the Licchavi Dynasty beginning with Manadeva in 432. But this does not take into account the power vacuum. The Kirats were defeated and overthrown in 158. Then if you take their counting for their own dynasty, it began in 1779 B. C. E.--suggesting the Rg Veda events were complete perhaps two or three generations previously.


So the Veda did not start in Kullu but most likely finished and was partly composed and compiled around there.


And so now we can freely post all this information.

But even in the nineteenth century it was not easy. We said that Dayanand Sarasvati pried into it and rapidly turned around with radical alterations to things like "Dharma" and innovations such as airplanes.

We will have to resort to a slightly different nationalist, revolutionary, and extremist, Sri Aurobindo. He will reflect how easy it was to know much about the Rg Veda in India when they don't know what a national symbol might be.

Whereas the actual texts of hymns are identical, he tells us:


Samhita of Rigveda was transferred by the oral traditions of several schools (śākhā), some of which has their own Samhita. Mahābhāṣya Patanjali (circa 150 BC) mentions 21 schools, five schools survives (they are mentioned at caraṇavyūha), but only 3 of them preserved their Samhitas at manuscripts.


We will just forgive and overlook his politics, because, for one, he is one of the only ones to do this at all. Secondly, his mentality is the diametric opposite of D. S. because he is a seeker who acquires some of the value. His translation is incomplete. We can get an idea of how distanced this was in their current state of the time:

At 1905–1907, before studying of Rigveda, Sri Aurobindo wrote: “At the root of all that we Hindus have done, thought and said through these many thousands of years, behind all we are and seek to be, there lies concealed, the fount of our philosophies, the bedrock of our religions, the kernel of our thought, the explanation of our ethics and society, the summary of our civilisation, the rivet of our nationality, a small body of speech, Veda. From this one seed developing into many forms the multitudinous and magnificent birth called Hinduism draws its inexhaustible existence. Buddhism too with its offshoot, Christianity, flows from the same original source. It has left its stamp on Persia, through Persia on Judaism, through Judaism, Christianity and Sufism on Islam, and through Buddha on Confucianism, and through Christ and mediaeval mysticism, Greek and German philosophy and Sanskrit learning on the thought and civilisation of Europe. There is no part of the world's spirituality, of the world's religion, of the world's thought which would be what it is today, if the Veda had not existed. Of no other body of speech in the world can this be said.”

At 1912 Sri Aurobindo began to study Rigveda.


...far more interesting to me was the discovery of a considerable body of profound psychological thought and experience lying neglected in these ancient hymns. And the importance of this element increased in my eyes when I found, first, that the mantras of the Veda illuminated with a clear and exact light psychological experiences of my own for which I had found no sufficient explanation either in European psychology or in the teachings of Yoga or of Vedanta, so far as I was acquainted with them, and, secondly, that they shed light on obscure passages and ideas of the Upanishads to which, previously, I could attach no exact meaning and gave at the same time a new sense to much in the Puranas.

At 1946 was published a little book Hymns to the Mystic Fire. At the foreword Sri Aurobindo wrote: “the object of this publication is only to present them [translations] in a permanent form for disciples and those who are inclined to see more in the Vedas than a superficial liturgy and would be interested in knowing what might be the esoteric sense of this ancient Scripture.”.

At 1946 at the foreword to Hymns to the Mystic Fire Sri Aurobindo wrote: “...in fact the method has been to start with a bare and scrupulously exact rendering of the actual language and adhere to that as the basis of the interpretation; for it is only so that we can find out the actual thoughts of these ancient mystics.”


Works that trying to find true, spiritual, sense of Rigveda are few and among them works by Sri Aurobindo have peculiar place, because of his supramental knowledge and experience that knows knowledge and experience of Rishis and clearly see Veda’s lines, following them without wandering and errors.

And so yes he turned out to be pretty good at this. In fact he makes this suggestion:


The word ashva must originally have implied strength or speed or both before it came to be applied to a horse.


Secret of the Veda is his first compilation of what he learned from the symbolism, and, selected hymns as examples. I think that is probably the same thing we linked at his own site.

It's just incomplete. He mainly worked Mandala I. But I have not found him to be particularly wrong in the way he handles things. While now he may be a pretty good starting point, to us, if he did not even start on it until after 1912, we can't agree that the nation was built on it or that it represents the knowledge base of any particular point in time. He published "ongoing research" when they took up Ashoka's symbols for the final draft.


He was able to collect Four kinds of creation myths.

Article on Aurobindo as perhaps the first honest seeker of this kind, at least since the fourteenth century, if Sayana was one.

Recent similar review in Pragyata.


So this is the same for me, right? It enhances what I have mostly gotten from Puranas and Upanishads. I didn't know almost anything about it until three weeks ago. Now we can trace Buddhism into the beginning or oldest book, Mandala VI, show how the whole thing closely fits physical evidence ca. 2,000 B. C. E., and several other things that could not have been possible for anyone only a hundred years previously.


It does not match or fit certain schools of thought that have rigidly-held beliefs.



While we are on the verge of denying there is anything such as a "Hindu religion", in part even atheism is permissible because the intellectual culture is really the Darsana:


The origin of Indian Philosophy (darśana) is found in the Vedas. Among the Vedas mainly the Ṛgveda is the fountain head of it. We find that, from the earliest time of the Ṛgveda, Indian seers became involved in philosophical speculations and the result of their attempts are found embodied in the Puruṣasūkta, the Devīsūkta, the Nāsadīyasūkta etc. “The Puruṣasūkta and Devīsūkta contain the germ of Monistic Idealism while the Śūktas ascribed to Dirghatamas contain the germ of Dualistic Realism”.

Thus, six well-known systems of Indian philosophy [flourished], namely—

Sāṃkhya,
Yoga,
Nyāya,
Vaiśeṣika,
Mīmāṃsā,
Vedānta.



Again, this is a little twisted, since the Vedic hymns are not supposed to be "speculations", so Purusha Sukta has to be taken as a true and correct direct vision or revelation. It can be an apartheid hierarchy where you are treated as a lesser being just for being born, or, it may mean something else.

Buddhism cannot be a Vedanta because it means the Vedas and Upanishads. It's the same one. I am going to use Sri Aurobindo's same Rg Veda and in comparison with the other editions. We don't have a different one of these.

It's a slightly different Yoga and a particular Mimamsa (Bodhisattva Path).

Aside from those two points of finesse, I am not sure it could be defined or distinguished at all. And with respect to the first point, I would suggest it represents an additional veil on top of what Aurobindo found.

Sage Kapila of Samkhya is so close to Vishnu and Buddha, there is almost no way he could be far from Yajnawalkya.


Compare R. Sivan:


There are no Hindus and non-Hindus. “Hindu” is a geographical term denoting the people of India. The Vedic teachings are Universal and not geographical.

There are three aspects to the Vedic teachings.

Darśana - the VIEW - it gives a number of different views of reality and the meta-narrative of life. It answers the questions who am I? What am I doing here? What do I do next?

Marga - the PATH - the way to achieve the greatest common good here and now. The practical guidelines for living the best possible life on earth.

Lakṣya - the GOAL - the Ultimate Goal of human aspiration which is complete Freedom i.e. Mokṣa.



In the sense of a Dharma culture, Buddhism fits in that way, and it is nastika or unorthodox in the remote whispers of the Atharva Veda style, which is Sramana in general, or, i. e., the portable, symbolic Yoga way of what might ordinarily be routine Household Rites or a Temple. Again, it is like Aurobindo says. They are trying to get to the inner meaning. What really is an Indra or Varuna that would suggest you stand around chanting about it?

In turn, it is largely correct that none of the Vedas have any explaining power. They recorded a time when, for example, people were speaking of Indra, and then he practically vanishes as a "Hindu deity".

My personal interest requires the full force of the explanatory power coming from Mandala VI, through Purusha Sukta, up until I would claim King Ramapala (reigned 1077–1130 AD) as our ultimate exegete. That is what I would call "Yogacara" because it is Sanskrit. But that is because I am a Mahayana convert who can only speak to the inner meaning, without any implication of DNA ancestry, or any involvement with temples. The average Buddhist anywhere in the world is not going to have a neighborhood Agni Homa. However the actual "Buddhism" is in the Indian Sanskrit lore just described.

Similarly to what Aurobindo did, this was not physically possible until the early 2000s.

If you are a Mahayanist, Buddha and Manjushri command you to respect what Aurobindo did.

You could be in Japan and it means that a birthright segregation by caste and intellectual dishonesty regarding the Vedas in India violates your Sutras.

I did not ask for the political polarization, I just wanted to pursue the Dharma, and it turns out the disagreements are in these very important parts and this has everything to do with ongoing currents in the Indian country.


The interpretation of Purusha Sukta amounts to about the same thing as the interpretation of the Book of Ezekiel that makes Zionism.

This has remained popular, while most of the rest of Rg Veda has been almost impossible to get to.

S. Ranade:


It is through the legend of the Purusha Sukta sacrifice, that the caste system comes into being formally. It is another matter that the three original castes probably predate the Rig Veda itself.

Also:


It is one of the few Rk Vedic hymns current in contemporary Hinduism like the Gayatri Mantra.










One of the most basic tenets is also one of the most ephemeral, reincarnation:


It has become common to hear from followers of Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) and scholars that reincarnation is not found in the Vedas; regrettably this is often due to a great deal of misinformation as well as an emerging literalist mentality that is attempting to sweep the global community. While it might be correct to say that the Rig Vedas does not address reincarnation literally with a specific word for reincarnation as a literalist would prefer; the Vedas does contain what could only be viewed as references to reincarnation. It does this initially through mantras that are considered funerary mantras; some of these are found within the Rig Veda, the oldest of the four Vedas. Within the Rig Veda, there is a lovely funerary mantra that states:

ā ta etu mana punah kratve dakshāya jīvase,

Jyok ca sūryam drishe. Rig Veda 10.4.57.4


“May your spirit return again, to perform pure acts for exercising strength, and to live long and to see the sun.”

While reincarnation is not specifically mentioned in this rik (verse), it is quite obvious that as a funerary rite, this would be referring to reincarnation.

Rig Veda 10.16 has a prayer to god Agni. The dead person should be sent to the forefathers. Let him take a rebirth and increase his offspring.

Again, O Agni, to the Fathers send him who, offered in thee, goes with our oblations.
Wearing new life let him increase his offspring: let him rejoin a body, Jātavedas.


X.59:

The life you get in this birth is much like the life you had in the previous. And you also get everything you need to make this a life of purpose.

In the next life too you will get all three realms. This is how life is established in the body. Knowledge and material ingredients nourish this body and divine enters this body to inspire your life.


7.59.12:

In this famous mantra, there is clear yearning for liberation (“mukShIya”) from death, which means rebirth and re-death. Immortality is the absence of death because there is no rebirth.

In the very early hymn 4.26.1 Vāmadeva declares that formerly he was Manu and Sūrya; see too 4.54.2!


And from Former Clerical at Government of India:


Q: Do any of the four Vedas talk about rebirth or reincarnation?

A: it's quite depressing to see that people would rather bet their lives on such primitive superstition




Well, that is to look at external words and impute inherent meaning, which we do not allow.

Our method is like listening for the inner meaning of mantras--how many people actually see the picture posted above?

The object is to know the mantras and picture by direct revelation, not by ratiocination.

I am not sure you bet much life by believing reincarnation or not, but so far I am told caste is a life's wager.

That is amazing--there is a pile of books on this and a very heated discussion. Again my suggestion so far is not to think of Manadala X as "late additions"--yes they were certainly *written* later--but this book contains a priori conditions for the Old Books to make sense, or, this was all a widely-discussed mythology which has inspired the hymns.

The Rg Veda hardly teaches doctrine at all. It makes statements and describes pictures or scenes. It is not the Guru! If reincarnation was a cultural norm, you wouldn't have to say much about it. To us it is sort of irrelevant; but the goal in all other Yogas is simply Moksha or to break that cycle. Mahayana seeks to reincarnate many times as a Bodhisattva. If a text is powerful enough to "liberate me in this lifetime", I should say "thanks" and hold that aspect at bay. A real Buddha is made of millions of eons of Virtue. That is part of how Buddhist Yoga is different and for example Urging through Song is specifically to counter-act this.

So it seems a little strange that people would question or deny reincarnation in Rg Veda. But, it was not really even provided for their consideration until relatively recently. Almost everyone is an "Aurobindo" and forced to discover the text as an "interesting addition" to Puranas and Upanishads.







Here come the same points drawn from a Buddhist discussion:

The very fact that scholars have this discussion in the first place is telling in itself. If rebirth were a fundamental tenet of the Vedas, wouldn’t we expect it to be stated unambiguously at least once? I mean, the idea would be fundamental to (parts of) the religion, and it’s not hard to say something like “he will be born again”. But such statements just aren’t there, and the best we have is basically inferences and grammatical ambiguities.

These texts are not religious treatises on philosophical ideas that state in abstract language what they think. They use layers of complex figurative language and symbolism to convey highly polysemous and intentionally ambiguous content open to interpretation from other poets and brahmins who induce religious experience and come to cognize these religious states for themselves (in their belief system). It can seem highly “philological” and yet be entirely intentional from the composers: these are poems using word play and symbolism to convey mystical ideas.

...this is just how the Vedic texts are: full of polysemy, intentional homophony, inference, underlying concepts left unspoken that need drawn out, ambiguity, etc. We can say with almost certainty that these ideas are there. When we look and analyze the actual meaning of the statements, it becomes clear. But I would also like to say that yes, it is not as though this were like the Buddhist suttas where a complex and consistent rebirth eschatology is made explicit in abstract language; that does not come up until the Brāhmanas...

Did anyone ever notice that the Rsi stopped composing poetry? I have no idea about the story of the missing Rsis.

In the 1900s, Aurobindo spent about thirty years working the Rg Veda, perhaps making the first public discussion on this book that sat unchanged for millennia.

At practically the same time, there was a "Purana Samhita" project, which also took about thirty years, the idea of an Ur-text, which comes to some very interesting findings. The "Puranic kings" chronology would then place the Rg Veda at ca. 1,900 B. C. E., or, pretty close to what we just got from Kiratic kings. So this one removes most of the popular ideas and boils it down to a smaller, concentrated view. What is found here is that the Yuga is a five year cycle--i. e. what we have already gathered from the Brahmanda as the important doctrine of Rudra and Agni as the Year. There are "four epochs", but these are very basically the stages of primitive man, agriculture, tribes, and finally civilization which is the main topic. The first three are "pre-historic", and history does not begin until ca. 3,600 B. C. E.. Most of the Vishnu incarnations are removed, as well as the super-human status of some Brahmins, and some of the people or kings are just battles. Of course, this is nothing official/not a real text, just an attempt to throw out what appear to be elaborations of a more basic story.



From a large page of responses about the origin of Vedas, most people are willing to agree it is only a partial collection, was not a "book", and perhaps can be updated by new Sages. It is likely that the known Anatolian treaty and seal are probably not the only external evidence:



Many of the early tablets that were excavated from round the world including present day Syria, Iraq, India, Pakistan, Turkey, were sold out to private bidders.

In addition, several of the remaining ancient Vedic tablets dating to between 1800 BCE and 1200 BCE have not been fully deciphered and released to the public, for reasons unknown.

Note: Attached image is a letter written by Mitanni King Tushratta in akkadian cuneiform to Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep quoting the Rig Vedic Hymn 1.48.1.






A lot of the discussion is fairly reasonable, because it is admittedly inconclusive. What we found from Sri Aurobindo is at least collaborative and progressive, but he was not mentioned much. However more than one response states that DS is the "only" person who is able to help us here. Note they just say this without any reason. At least more of the responses point you towards some other guide. Instead of one person:

Vedas are without beginning and without end, and cannot be comprehended by ordinary people.

This attitude is unfortunately, intentionally or unintentionally, directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously leading to a religious (superstitious and superficial) relation to Vedas, although, Vedic time was not a religion (religious) time.

Especially the view, that Vedas are not comprehensible by ordinary people is heavily misleading and misinterpreting the Vedas´ eternal mission.

From saying that Vedas are not for ordinary people is only one step to caste, untouchability, and other fatal issues damaging Indian society for hundreds if not thousands of years. Friendly speaking, contrary to that traditional rendering the Vedas are for ordinary people. Because an ordinary / normal human being is the one, who is living in accordance with the Vedic practical wisdom (Sanatama Dharma). All other people are un-normal with regard to the mission of humankind.

But the current establishment does not appear to be in this business:

The government of India and we the people can protect these scriptures only when we don’t associate them as Hindu scriptures. As long as we tag a religious identity to our historical objects and paint saffron our heritage, it is difficult to work with other cultures. Although we are not biased we will be assumed to be so. After all the relics which we get are for entire India, not for a religion. We can move ahead only when we have a responsible mindset else the government would behave exactly the way they would do for Tamil History, dedicating the government functionary and resources to suppress and enforce false and lies to create an alternative which would suit their political ambitions and requirements.

That is why we might intellectually and verbally object to the distortions and cover-ups wherever they may be found.

Such is the purpose of this thread, not really the intra-Yogic details compressed in the symbolism, which becomes relevant should you decide to pursue a practice. Already have that. Here, it is unfortunately the case that arbitrary, artificial decisions have been used on the same material, resulting in something that does not belong.

[shaberon]

I was a little puzzled in finding that India "nationalized" Ashoka for no particular reason.


From what I have seen--and, I don't know numbers--there are two kinds of Indians:


Some value Buddha, even if they are not followers, they are still proud that his work is part of their heritage.

Some cannot get past the idea he is anti-Brahmanical, and ought to be disposed of.


Objectively, you cannot get around the fact that the Ashokan Pillars are the first written evidence of Buddha, or they are even among the first written evidence of writing, and were used to decode Brahmi script. Regardless of what happened in Mahabharata, it may be that Ashoka was historically the most influential figure of all, and certainly from the view of "available data", this would probably be impossible to dispute. Meaning Indians, not influence of Mughals or the English Queen.


It is personally baffling because from the view of Buddhism, you get used to things that are extraordinary to others.


I can't remember not knowing about Ashoka, but it seems to be news to those who took his art for their flag.

Here is how we see this important emperor of the largest ancient India.

India may not have known who he was, but we have already sent to China by around the year 300:


Asoka Vadana


Some date the earliest finished form of the text back to 2nd century CE, although its oral origins may go back to 2nd century BCE.


Well, it would be difficult for the spoken legend of Ashoka...not to go back to Ashoka.

For it to make sense, we add the second king thereafter, Pusyamitra (r. 185–151 BCE), who is notable because:


Michael Witzel states that Manudharma, which emphasizes the role of orthodox faith in state-craft and society, was first compiled under Pushyamitra's rule. According to Kaushik Roy, it was a Brahmanical reaction to the rise of Buddhism and Jainism.


Pushyamitra Shunga's history is recorded in the Harshacharita authored by Bāṇabhaṭṭa.

The military historian Kaushik Roy describes Harshacharita as "historical fiction" but with a factually correct foundation.

Harsha of the 600s is a Dharmic king:


The peace and prosperity that prevailed made his court a centre of cosmopolitanism, attracting scholars, artists and religious visitors from far and wide. The Chinese traveller Xuanzang visited the court of Harsha, and wrote a very favourable account of him, praising his justice and generosity.





The Vadanas are just like that. Almost all Buddhist history, in the strict sense, is unreal, which is why we are taught not to take it too seriously. The article suggests that the actions of Pusyamitra are "exaggerated". Of course, the actions of Ashoka are also exaggerated.


The story of him stopping war due to a solitary Buddhist monk is at least semi-realistic, and probably not literally true.

It goes on to includes Yakshas and Kumbhanadas which means it has to be partly subjective.

But afterwards he was violent again! The story says he was so Buddhist he ordered the slaughter of 18,000 Ajivikas, because of a Jain, and shortly thereafter the same things happens again, and he orders a regime of censorship and suppression, until this gets his own brother killed, despite the fact that he converted to Buddhism.

And then it goes on to King Pusyamitra, who then turned around and slaughtered the Buddhists.



You remove the unlikely and ludicrous nonsense--massacres of thousands--and replace it with something reasonable, like "royal support" and a few troublemakers on both sides. It appears that Sanchi was vandalized around this time and restored by the Satavahanas. Although it may have even been repaired by Pusyamitra, and he may have constructed Bharhut Stupa. It is also likely some Buddhists supported the Greeks against Pusyamitra, and this turned into the last Greek aggression against India.


If you read through it, then, you get a strong anti-censorship message.

It started from a picture of Buddha bowing to the Tirthankara. Who cares? He would have done that.

The story tells me that violent over-reactions to someone's philosophy is uncalled for.

There is absolutely nothing that comes from this resembling a doctrine of revenge on "Ajivikas" or "the sons of Pusyamitra" or anything of the kind.



However, objectively, we are left with the difficult proposition saying the institution of caste or its antecedents were revived by him. If I don't believe he killed so many people for an absurd reason, I can believe he probably had something to do with setting up a non-Buddhist system, which apparently ranks as a non-Vedic system as well, and this is what is called Indian or Hindu.


According to D. Vittal, he:


...found a fertile ground for blooming strange stories like Manu’s law being codified at this period, implemented in stray or in full to establish the precursor of Hindutva upon the Buddhists. This periodic setup is still ideal ground for all of us to go back, revisit and turn ourselves and wear the attire we desire.



Perhaps one of the first modern considerations of Asoka was from Ambedkar:

Ashoka made Buddhism the religion of the state, which was, according to Ambedkar, a revolution that successfully threw out the evils of Hinduism including casteism. For 140 years the Brahmins remained the suppressed class, and to end this, Pushyamitra committed regicide and gave Brahmins sovereignty over all other classes. The rebellion of Pushyamitra is regarded as the counter-revolution by Dr. Ambedkar and as the main cause behind the downfall of Buddhism in India. Ambedkar voices his dissatisfaction with the emphasis laid on the Muslim invasions in India. He argues that the Muslim invasions of Hindu India only destroyed the external symbols of Hindu religion, while the Brahminist rebellion against Buddhist India destroyed the principles that governed the spiritual life of the people.

Ambedkar comments, the greatest impediment to nationalism has been none other than the Caste system.

Instead of a Brahminical method, Ambedkar speaks in favour of the Buddhist method of guiding the society because Buddha emphasized that the leader of a society must not possess any private property.

I would tend to agree. From what we can tell, Muslims killed Buddhists not because they were Buddhists, but because they thought the monasteries might be used as fortifications. This is, of course, not true, but from a military view, when you are taking over a strange new land, it makes sense. The intra-Indian argument is corrosion from within.


From a review of most of the Ashokan story as hyperbole:


But in the end of Vedic period, Brahmin caste gained economical supirity and caste system became rigid and inhuman. Then Brahmins restricted accessibility to Vedas fearing that it could be able to recreate equality in society and decline of their superiority. The Vedas have never been brought in the public domain for precisely this reason.


All the walkers

Who walk on the path

Have equal right

To the path

– Rig Veda 2/13/2



So, no, it is not wise for Maharastra Buddhists to bring up Pusyamitra for further clash. You should not worry or believe too much in the violent aspect. That is not what the story is really about! If it was such a fresh memory, the Pala Dynasty supported what were by then called "Shaivites", in fact multiple Pala Buddhist kings were also initiated as Shaivites.


The contemporary writings describe this situation as matsya nyaya ("fish justice" i.e. a situation where the big fish eat the small fish). Gopala ascended the throne as the first Pala king during these times.

According to the Manjusrimulakalpa after the end of the Gupta rule in Bengal, people elected Bhadra. He destroyed Brahmana feudal lords, but anarchy still prevailed. After this Gopala became king. He was of menial caste (dasajivinah). Manjusrimulakalpa was quite near in time to the establishment of the rule of the Palas and should be considered more authentic than other references which are of very late period.


Manjushri Mula Kalpa has recently been translated to English. It is an accreted text, most likely built from around the year 700-1,000, and it is not only a significant source of Indian history but also Iran. Yes, it has a few embellishments which almost anyone could pick out as somewhat fanciful, but for the most part you might consider it an encyclopedia.


If this thing about fish had been a stock expression for centuries, why would you write about Matsya Avatar?

Still older than most manuscripts is the ca. 750 Khalimpur Copper Plate:






“Matsyanyayam apakitum prakritibhir Lakshmiya karam grahitah Sri Gopala iti ksitisasirsam chudamani-tatsubha”


This means “To put an end to the state of affairs similar to what happens among fishes, the
prakriti made the glorious Gopala, the crest jewel of the heads of kings, take the hand of
Lakshmi, the goddess of fortune.”

Another reason
which explains lack of records of their caste and descendance is that the Palas were devout
Buddhist and were not supposed to mention their caste or allude to Brahmanical institutions
of caste.



That does say that a Buddhist king serves a Hindu goddess.

That would be correct.


On Pala era social life:

In spite of the Buddhist inclination of the Pala kings, social structure represented the essence of Brahmanism in its organisation according to the caste basis. The Varna or caste system though was not rigid like the preceding eras, yet was deeply rooted within the society and Buddhists had to adjust themselves with that. Though caste system prevailed, the orthodox Brahmanical division had undergone a massive change. The supremacy of the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas was no more important in the socio-political life.

Their place was taken by the Karana Kayasthas. The Ambastha Vaidyas also had dominance during this age. The Kaivartas also possessed control during the Pala realm. The Kaivartas for the first time appeared in pages of history right from the time of the Pala supremacy in Bengal. The liberal social policy of the Palas opened the way for superiority of the Kaivartas during the period.

As a whole, though the social structure was based on the rules laid by Brahmanical Hinduism, yet the Pala kings were staunch Buddhists. During this period Buddhism had earned enormous patronage of the Palas. They had restored Buddhism from being completely worsened in 7th century A.D. Though the Palas respected the Brahmanas and their status and theoretically had accepted the Varna system, yet in practice they had granted higher status to the middle Varnas and Sudras.

From the inscriptions and epigraphic evidences of the Pala period, it is known that though the caste system was not so rigid, yet people of the lower castes were considered untouchables. Bhaba-Deva Bhatta in his "Law book" has described the Chandalas, Medas, Savaras, Kapalis as untouchables. They were considered outcasts and lived on the outskirts of villages. The "Charya Padas" refer to the lax sexuality of this class of people, which gradually penetrated into the life of the upper castes. The trading and merchant classes, as also the Kshatriyas had lost their importance in society. This happened probably due to the decline of trade in 7th century A.D. The Varna or caste regulation during the Pala age was extremely flexible. The rigidity in the Varna system did not affect the society of Bengal during the Pala Age, probably due to the absence of 'Smritis' or law books in Bengal. In the Sena period, Bhaba-Deva Bhatta and other Smriti writers had introduced rigidity in the Varna system and the concept of untouchability.

Vedic procedures of "homa" and "Yajna" were still continuing in diminished glory. The Puranic kings and heroes, who had inspired the lifestyle of the upper classes, became widely popular in the Pala phase.

The Pala rulers were Buddhists, but majority of their subjects were Hindus. Dharmapala had adopted the policy of religious toleration as their state policy. He had declared that he is 'conversant with the precepts of Shastras and he made 'the castes conform to their proper tenets'. This policy was followed by his successors. There is no doubt that Hindu gods and goddesses and Brahmins use to receive liberal patronage from the Pala rulers, though they themselves were devout Buddhists. The Brahmins occupied high official posts. Except one or two, all the Pala copperplates record grant of land to temples of Hindu gods and goddesses or to Brahmins. There is no evidence of any religious discord between the Buddhists and Hindus in the society. Religious toleration and mutual coexistence can be identified as the characteristic of social life of the people during the Pala period.

But this, although an "empire", was in the north and east and about a quarter the size of the current country.

If you pick through some 1,400 years of Indian Buddhism, you don't get any kind of Ashoka's Revenge, until recently when these poor Buddhists start using it as ammunition. Most of them were Dalits, they are not very educated and more of a social movement spawned out of a few lightweight books. Think about it for a moment. Asoka and Pusyamitra almost certainly did not massacre large numbers of Indians for nothing. If that was meaningful, the Palas had four hundred years to make something of it. But the medieval era is full of Brahmin Buddhists. It would *not* be an exaggeration to estimate that nearly *half* of all known Buddhist exegetes were Brahmins. There would have been nothing to renounce.

It is difficult enough when Indologists tell us there were eighteen rival Buddhist sects, and assume they had chains of documents which sharply contrasted themselves. That is next to impossible. Some of it is geography, or, particular baskets of texts, but only about a handful might truly qualify as someone at odds or in actual disagreement over a given doctrine.

Secondly, if you tell me Sabari is an Outcaste, that may be, but "untouchable" loses its meaning here.

In fact it had probably lost any significance before written records (in the Buddhist sentiment).


The Palas run up to the end of Indian Buddhism, so, nothing really to say about the Mughals other than, no, if one were to have a doctrine of revenge, it would be there, and it isn't.


After they were gone, Britannica says:


Sena rule in Bengal brought about a marked revival of orthodox Hinduism. The caste system, which had become lax because of the Buddhist influence of the Palas, was reestablished...


Then:


Opposed to the Brahmanic Hinduism of the Senas with its rigid caste system...





Here is a difficult consideration from a current Indian celebrity, Abhishek Majumdar, in an interview:

Finally, history is the central peg here. And forces — right or left attempt to find new versions of history — or try to rewrite it. Why is history so central to the argument of the right wing? Does it also point to an intellectual bankruptcy in the present context? Also when you wrote the play, where did you draw the line between fact and fiction in this context?

Firstly, since we are not a post-war country, there needs to be a crisis to push for a nationalistic identity. So they will simply manufacture a crisis.

That's disturbing. A "New Pearl Harbor" for India. I didn't say that. It's his logical conclusion from living in an identity crisis.

And he uses our same resource for comparison:

I began reading up radical Hinduism. One of the great propositions of the right is that Hindus are under threat (a very dodgy thing to say with this huge population). Was there ever a time in our history when Hindus were under threat? Actually there was. Under the Buddhists. With large scale conversions, the Hindus became a minority in Bengal under the Pala Dynasty.

Mitigating the term "threat" and choosing the words more carefully:

The continuing story of censorship in India, where national pride and religious sentiment trump freedom of expression, worries him. “I am concerned about the return of religious bigotry in India. But actually it’s opportunism and hooliganism,” he says...

“I started thinking about Hindutva, what makes the right wing movement anti-intellectual, and its bogus claim that Hinduism is under threat,” adds Majumdar. “Through research, I found an interesting period in Bengal when the Buddhist Pala dynasty was ruling, and there was a fear of imminent decline of Hinduism.

I'm not sure who was afraid of what, but there had been large Buddhist constituencies in Orissa since Ashoka's time. But, ok, under the Palas there was probably fear of decline of something. And he is not trying to finesse the historical view, but, use it as a basis for a fictional play, which is really aimed at the situation today. Just a springboard to try to figure it out:

What made you explore the history of Hinduism in a play?

The hypothesis of the right wing Hindu is that Hinduism is under threat and various minorities are being given undue advantages, so Hinduism must come together as a masculine thing to reinforce its traditional and conservative values. This is pretty much what the line was with Nazism and Jews and right wing Islamic groups, whether in Afghanistan or the Arab world or Pakistan. I was looking for a time in the history of our country where the hypothesis of the Hindutva groups would actually be true. Lo and behold, it is really true in the Pala empire, which was present in Bengal but had also spread to Bihar and parts of UP.

Well, if you go by the records of the Bengali reactionary forces, I am sure you would get such a picture. Bengal does not know its history before them. They ask Nepal. The result might be a fair comparison of the Senas <--> BJP. The important point is not that he knows anything about the Palas, but that he is greatly disturbed by modern attitudes.

The Mahabharata may be like Ashoka Vadana and reluctant to take anything too literally. Like Harsha Carita. Like taking interviews from a guy who says fiction does not tell facts, but it can tell the truth.

The Vedas contain facts such as certain kings, sages, and events, which can only be extrapolated, because there is no connective storyline.

If it were possible to agree on anything, they are scripture, which is pan-Indian.



By far the oldest written evidence of the Vedas is found in Syria.

Because it pertains to a dynasty, it is something more than a chance curiosity.


This point is asserted, by some, for the greater nationalization of India, or that it was like a reversed British Empire on a scale of several thousands of years.

The greater likelihood is that Sanskrit was just a court language and left no living remnants.

It is possible that the reason for it is somewhere in these tablets or seals. There is no explanation. What we can say is that it is completely realistic for India to have had a Syrian connection at this time. Some Ashokan Pillars are done in Aramaic.


I don't read cuneiform, so, we would have to take someone's word that the tablet posted previously includes RV I.48.1; if so, it should go something like:


“Uṣas, daughter of heaven, dawn upon us with riches; diffuser of light, dawn upon us with abundant food; bountiful goddess, dawn upon with wealth (of cattle).”


In the Sanskrit, she has an epithet:


vibhāvari rāyā devi


which is translated as an ordinary verb. However this term certainly has many later attestations:


Vibhāvarī (विभावरी, “starry night”):—One of the names of the city where Varuṇa resides with his two wifes (Ṛddhi and Vāruṇī). Varuṇa is the presiding deity of the invisible world and represents the inner reality of things.


Pan-Puranic or similar to Purana Samhita:


The city of Soma in the Mānasa on the north of Meru.*

* Bhāgavata-purāṇa V. 21. 7; Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 21. 33; Vāyu-purāṇa 50. 90; Viṣṇu-purāṇa II. 8. 9; Matsya-purāṇa 124. 24.




Vibhāvarī (विभावरी).—A mental daughter of Brahmā. She is considered to be the personation of Night.


She was obtained by Bṛhaspati in the mountain in order to search the cows.

Uṣas is also very close to Vāk.

Along with Soma, she is asked to protect one from the sins of harsh words.



Presuming the king at least knew the whole hymn, if not more of its background, the epithet is repeated a few lines later. This is metaphysical:


viśvasya hi prāṇanaṃ jīvanaṃ tve vi yad ucchasi sūnari | sā no rathena bṛhatā vibhāvari śrudhi citrāmaghe havam ||

“Inasmuch, bringer of good, as you dawn, the breath and life of all (creatures) rest in you; diffuser of light, come to us with your spacious car; possessor of wondrous wealth, hear our invocation.”


This also got the attention of a completely different line of inquiry on Vishnu:


The word viSvam is the first word of Sri VishNu sahasra nAmam. This word
viSvam is saluted NINETY times in the Rk Vedam

The ten mantrAs from each of the ten KhANDams are:

1. viSvasya hi prANanam ---1.48.10


The phrase with perhaps Vishnu and Prana Jiva is simply given as:


the breath and life of all (creatures) rest in you



While that has no further significance in most languages, it is exceptionally significant in Ayurveda and Yoga.


Knowing know how the mandalas work, finding "vibhavari" in eight or so of them, the oldest is in IV.52 (Vamadeva):


Yea, and thou art the Asvins' Friend, the Mother of the Kine art thou:
O Dawn thou rulest over wealth.

“You are the friend of the Aśvins; you are the mother of the rays of light; you, Uṣas, rule over riches.”

uta sakhāsy aśvinor uta mātā gavām asi | utoṣo vasva īśiṣe ||


"Riches" here is an archaic form, evidently similar to:


Vasvanta (वस्वन्त):—[=vasv-anta] [from vasv > vas] mfn. ending with the word vasu


so, it has to do with "vasu".

The first hymn also appears in a report on Vedic Human Rights, giving us the expression used then, as it is now, Adhikara, which has the context of "a fair claim".

The thesis of Dharma pairs rights and responsibilities; and, generally, rights exist because of participation in responsibilities. In this sense, "peasants" have more rights than kings, who has almost entirely responsibility:



the higher one's heritage,
the lower their rights and the greater their responsibilities.



According to Vedic literature, the state's first duty is to protect the
rights of its citizens and to treat them all equally, just as a mother does
with her children. It was predicted that, just as Mother Earth offers equal
support to all living beings, a king would do the same, without bias or
discrimination. The notion of the right to equality and the values of a
secular state stem from the King's duty to treat all of his subjects equally
and without prejudice. The king was supreme and had the power to enact
legislation, but this power was limited to regulatory legislation rather
than substantive or constitutional legislation (dharma). According
to the Brihadaranyak Upaniṣad, Dharma was the king of kings, and
Dharma, fortified by the mighty king's power, allowed the weak to triumph
over the powerful.


That sounds reasonable. The hymn was taken in the stance of "feminism" as the following:


According to Ṛig Véda, "The entire
macrocosm of noble people bows to the majestic woman's glory in order
for her to enlighten us with sagacity and foresight. She is a pillar of society
who imparts wisdom to all. She is a symbol of wealth and a famous
sibling. May we value her in order for her to eradicate evil and hate from
society " (Ṛig Véda, 1.48.8).


I am not sure that is false, but it is not quite what the hymn says, since it is to Usha. It does not quite seem to be "woman" in the abstract. It is touchy, since sometimes words turn into names, or names are reduced to words. But in a short hymn clearly addressed to Usha, "she" or "the woman" probably still means this.

Of course, one should think in patterns. If "four kinds of professions" are mentioned one time with no concept of caste, that is not a pattern. When various expressions that "might" refer to reincarnation, or Vishnu, appear in various places, it is more plausible these ideas are supported. Again, for example, if rebirth was a widely-accepted belief, you would not need to harp on it or try to argue for it, you would simply mention it from time to time.

If caste existed in multiple struggles for existence under various kingdoms, then, likewise, you would expect it to be used casually. But the phrase seemed to say that people in all jobs are emanations of the same Purusha, so, to me, at least, it sounds more like equality.


One of the most bizarre caste-like customs is Sati. This, and its adjuncts, can probably at least be said not to have any substance in the Vedas. Again, if something like women's rights was not an issue, it may not have needed any pointing out. Without some external driving force, it would not occur to me, personally, that a woman ought to be under a different set of laws than me.

More fundamentally, one might say the Vedas have a goddess along with a male god, so, no, this also does not come under the "rubric" of religion if Dharma is classed with Abrahamics.






So we have said Rg Veda is the oldest complete text.

It seems to speak to a pre-existing mythos, and, may even be written backwards, with important sources like Creation and Pururavas in the latest book.

Then, nothing happened to the Sages. The latest "complete" Veda (ca. 1,000 B. C. E.) may in fact have been started in the older original tradition in the Atharva Veda:

From the analysis it is clear that Atharva Veda emerged as a Vedic tradition that ran parallel to Rig Vedic tradition. It is difficult to tell precisely, which tradition started first. Researchers are still to precisely tell whether it was an Atharva Vedic hymn or a Rig Vedic hymn that emerged first, and even if a precedence is established, it is even difficult to tell how much significant temporal gap exist between the formation of these hymns. However it can be told with certainty that Atharva Veda continued to grow even after Rig Veda was frozen.

Sage Atharvan is mentioned in Rig Veda as an ancient figure. He is mentioned as a bringer of fire or the one who knows how to create or ignite fire.

Rig Veda also indicates that 'Atharvan' is a surname and it can be applied to many people who lived at different times.


This clearly gives away the geography of the Atharva Veda (at least its middle and late period) as Haryana and Uttar Pradesh.

Comparing Atharva Veda and Rig Veda we find that the Rig Vedic religion was an advancement or a diversion from the Atharva Vedic religion and that its foundation was the Shamanic traditions described in Atharva Veda. Though initially part of the Atharva Vedic traditions, the Angirasa sages like the Bharadwajas and the Gautamas later focused more on Rig Veda and distanced themselves from Atharva Veda, while the Bhrigu sages continued their Atharva Vedic traditions. In a period of pre-history, when the Angirasas were dominant Vedic scholars, they positioned Atharva Veda as the fourth Veda, behind Rig Veda and its two associates viz the Yajur Veda and the Sama Veda.

Thus the ancient Bhrigus and ancient Angirasas were both Atharvans. In later stages we see the Angirasas distancing themselves from their Atharvan ancestry while the Bhrigus continuing with their ancestral Atharvan traditions such as Atharva Veda.

In the Samhita, that is, commentary on the final form which includes the important subject Medicine or Bhaisajya:


The varṇa system had been well established.


What is stated is that Bhrgu passed the tradition to Angiras.

Angiras is said to have spread the traditional Homa.

The question would be whether Angiras added things to make a Homa, and Zoroaster truly represents Bhrgu. Or, the Homa did come from Bhrgu and Zoroaster changed it.


Despite the similarities, Homa and Zend Avesta are not the same practices.

To most reviews, it strongly appears that Atharvan Zarathustra is Bhrgu Atharvaveda.


Because India only has Angiras Atharvaveda, and, the Rg Veda details the expansion of the Angiras lineage, it is obvious that Bhrgu authority was reduced.


It is then possible there is an attempt to crypto-reinstall Bhrgu in Mahabharata.

So then it is more correct that there is no more Sage work after Atharvaveda, meaning ca. 1,000 B. C. E., then most likely that is a pretty close match for the events that are in Mahabharata. Plausibly, a Bhrgu might have been motivated to give us their take on it.


There is some testimony about "the rift" but it does not say where the words of the Sages are coming from (source material), but in general:



The rift between the two clans was more or less formalized when the composite text Atharvana Veda, also called Bhrigu – Angirasa Samhita, was split into two books along the lines of their affiliations: the Bhargava Veda (the Veda of the Bhrigus) and Angirasa Veda (the Veda of the Angirasa).It is believed that the Atharva Veda which has come down to us in India is, in fact, only one-half of the original text – the Angirasa Veda part. The other half the Bhargava Veda is lost to us.

...the continuing rivalry between two ancient sages Bhrigu the priest of the Anu or Anvas (in the west) and Angirasa the priest of the dominant Puru-Bharatas in the valley of seven rivers.



It is only half the size of the Rg Veda, but contains the same amount of vocabulary.

I would hesitate to draw conclusions without concrete details. But, yes, it is suggestive that "What is Vedism?" is "a practice of the Atharvans" which continued for about a thousand years in "living" form--i. e. with Sages still able to contribute--and then, yes, something with Zoroaster and the Mahabharata going to the overall loss of Vedic familiarity, and a reincarnating "Varna--Caste" to some degree or other. Yes, it may have started after the Rg Veda events, and been known by the final compositions in Atharva Veda.


If we take an annotated article on the Anu, the lines are not so black-and-white, and would have to mean "some" or "among the followers of":


The Bhrgus were the priestly class of the Anu. Fire worship was an important part of their rituals. In the Old Rigveda, Bhrgus were revered for being the ones who introduced fire worship. In VII.18.6, the Bhrgus are among the enemies.

In the middle period of the Rigveda, one group of Bhrgus, led by Jamadagni and Parśurāma, become priests of the Purus.

The gṛtsamadas, a group of aṅgiras priests, descendants of Śunahotra Bhāradvāja (composer of VI.33-34), gets itself adopted into the family of a bhṛgu sage, a descendant of Śunaka Bhārgava. They are the composers of Book 2 of the Rigveda, whose identity is put as "gṛtsamada śunahotra āṅgiras paścāt śunaka bhārgava".


In terms of "the enemies", it means who Sudas smashed at the Battle of Ten Kings.

Bhrgus are simultaneously the source of rites, and are the riteless enemy. This is delicate.

Note the Dharmapedia links use Talageri as a source, compared to Wiki and Witzel.



The following description is Puranic:


...the Epics and the Purāṇas depict the priest of the deva-s as an Angiras (Bṛhaspati), and the priest of the asura-s as a Bhṛgu (Kavi Uśanā or Uśanas Kāvya, also popularly known in the Puranas and Epics as Uśanas Śukra or Śukrācārya).


since there is no "Asura" in this sense until Churning the Ocean of Milk, and, the same spelling, asura, refers to Devas in Vedic terminology. Therefor, the division is simply between Angirases and Bhrgus. It is a dangerous word, "asura", because it is not a proper name of anything, but refers to the losers of Nectar during the Churning, who were the Daityas and Danavas. The worst possible translation is "demon".


From a chapter on Buddhism being nourished by the Vedas, this again highlights Vayu and Purusha.


In a recent presentation, the Kagyu have updated their history somewhat. Not to the utmost detail like I am doing, but, at least somewhat along with the results of recent findings. Although Buddhism as a whole relates to the Vedic environment, the primary or most direct link from H. H. Gyalwang Karmapa 2021:


His Holiness went on to speak about the fourth Veda, the Atharvaveda, which relates to the mantras used in Buddhism.


Realizing a break in disseminations:


For these reasons, many of the rituals performed in the practices, mandalas and rituals of the Secret Mantra have their roots in the Vedic literature, which is more than 4000 years old. At this time, however, we do not clearly know how they changed between the Vedas and the Secret Mantra. Lack of historical sources limits what we can know, but one thing we can say for certain, their mutual similarities are clearly not a mere coincidence.


Retaining some of the original:


In particular, in Buddhism, we talk about the twelve links of dependent-origination, which also find their origins in the Vedas. Ignorance, karmic formations, consciousness and name and form appear in the same terms in the Rigveda. Although it is very difficult to find the original source of those twelve links of interdependence, according to one Japanese scholar, the first hymn of the Rigveda might be their origin.


And knowing about the rebounding social phenomenon:


This system of four castes developed over time, gradually, during the latter part of the Vedic Period. The hierarchy of caste depended upon respective trades not race, and each trade was passed down from father to son.


I, personally, had not thought much about that. I imagine there may be some research finding how close Buddhist Dependent Origination may be to the Rg Veda. Just on its own, I would not say that Dependent Origination is specifically Buddhist in a way that would be different than anything else. The response to it is where you would enter a distinct Buddhism.


India is very nice for hosting many Buddhist refugees for quite some time now, although it is hardly "threatening Hinduism" by mass conversions right now. One of the few recent additions is Shri Diwakar Vihara, Kalimpong, at:


Heritage building 1911



In conjunction with the Shamars, they have taken over this meeting-ground of Theosophy and Buddhism. And keep going in their normal way:


Most of the students come from Nepal, Bhutan, and India. Almost 60 are orphans and depend entirely on the School for their livelihood.

On the campus, they also have the possibility to play volleyball, football and badminton as well as do other sports.

Following the wish of 14th Shamarpa, we do our best to raise these children and give them not only a bed and an education but also spiritual value and ethics that will guide them throughout their life.


So, it includes at least a balanced attitude towards the Vedas, and says nothing about India, Hinduism, Islam, or even China, which you might think Tibetans would take issue with. Comparatively, Marathi Buddhism is a modern conversion:


Almost all Marathi Buddhists belong to the Navayana tradition, a 20th-century Buddhist revival movement in India that received its most substantial impetus from B. R. Ambedkar who called for the conversion to Buddhism by rejecting the caste-based society of Hinduism. This was though a socio-religious movement and the term "Navayana" was used to "simplify the present cultural complexities" in other sects of Buddhism. Overall this wasn't a completely new sect culturally and ritually as it borrows most of it's traditions from Theravada sect of Sri Lanka.

Ambedkar asked Dalits not to get entangled in the existing branches of Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), and called his version Navayana or 'Neo-Buddhism'. Ambedkar would die less than two months later, just after finishing his definitive work on Buddhism. Many Buddhists employ the term "Ambedkarite Buddhism" to designate the Buddhist movement, which started with Ambedkar's conversion.


From a follower:


He found this as a way to end the caste system.

We all celebrate almost all hindu fests.

Hinduism is more a way of life than a religion and hence hindu roots are rather difficult to eradicate.


or:

I have seen many cases now a days where a Buddhist girl is easily accepted in higher caste communities. Since I belong to this caste, we celebrate every Hindu festival along with Buddha pornima and ambedkar jayanti and I have never faced discrimination because of my caste.


So, yes, on a *human* level it is fine. But thanks to the politically indoctrinated, there are still honor killings, prejudice, hatred, etc., not finished yet. It seems to be mainly the younger generation 20s-30s that just don't care about those strict standards any more. Maybe it will be like here, where our "problem generation" will simply die off. They will die with nothing but a legacy of violence and hatred, that no one wants to inherit.

I have never known any Ambedkarites, but I would invite them to Sutra Buddhism based in 84,000 Sanskrit texts. I am not sure there is any such thing as non-Indian Sutras. Then you become self-educated. Then you have to ask about Mahayana, which is the only way I know of, that truly distinguishes Buddhist practice from Hindu Dhyana. As Theravadins, they dump caste and are going to get a slightly different discussion about the same Hindu Moksha. It may be called Nirvana but is not qualitatively any different.


What is interesting about Atharvaveda is that "scripture" now also consists of various facts such as Germ Theory. That is what is in it. Ayurveda, so to speak, is a "response" that deals with Prana and Humors, which are understood to be messed up in relation to the Germs. It is not "a Veda", it just means Life Knowledge, is not scripture.


Overall, Vedic study appears indistinguishable from the old Buddhist Universities:

The Vedas and the Vedangas (ancillary sciences) formed a vital part of the curriculum at ancient Vedic universities, such as Nalanda, Takshashila (or Taxila) and Vikramashila. The syllabus, at these institutions, included both texts in Vedic Sanskrit, as well as texts that were considered to be "connected to the Vedas".

The Rigveda texts are the most well-preserved in modern times. These come from the school of Sakalya, from a region called Videha, situated in present-day North Bihar, south of Nepal. This Vedic canon consists of texts from several Vedic schools, assembled together to form one whole.

The Rigveda texts are the most well-preserved in modern times. These come from the school of Sakalya, from a region called Videha, situated in present-day North Bihar, south of Nepal. This Vedic canon consists of texts from several Vedic schools, assembled together to form one whole.

Recently, the Nalanda University at Patna officially stated that it plans to introduce Vedic studies within its curriculum.

It is actually just this Rg Veda that is universally pan-Indian; the others have a few minor variances.


Gandhi believed in Hinduism = Varnashrama Dharma.

ISKCON has the moderate view:

There are many points of variance, but perhaps the most critical difference between casteism and varnashrama is that in the latter one’s designation depends upon personal qualities, whereas in the former it depends solely upon birth. In Vedic varnashrama, if you were born in a working-class, or shudra, family, but had the quality of a scholar, or brahmana, then you could become a brahmana despite your birth. Or vice versa.

I am not sure of the correct vocabulary. No need to dispute "division of labor" as described. "Caste" had no Indian equivalent; it would amount to restrictive laws, or, prevailing social attitudes, imposed on to the Varnashrama. That is our objection. There are not any traces of legal codes from Pusyamitra, or the Senas, etc., and so we have to go by reputations such as "repressive due to castes". It is only partially clear, since Manusmrti could have been redacted multiple times, it is not literally a legal code, but must represent an evolving school of thought.

It is useless to say something is "in the Vedas", or "this is Hinduism", you have to give a scriptural source and line of commentary. Even if substituting "woman" for "Ushas" is not so harmful, if it is not correct, you should not clutch onto it. In the distant past, there may not have been any laws, to say they were unfair or otherwise. Gaelic Scotland had no laws or states, the king simply ruled by decree and the loyalty of his subjects. They were loyal because they were in a compact to defend each other.

As pure philosophical speculation, it being evident that part of the subject of the Rg Veda is how to produce Vedas, it may be that the Atharvans intentionally stopped.

There were additional Riks now missing, the other books grew after its contents were complete, and the main subject is being in the state that allows you to speak or chant something divine.

It makes sense to have a finite universal scripture that is pretty much the same for everyone, as well as regional variances and different philosophies. Just identify it properly and don't distort the meanings. I assure you that Krishna is not a Buddhist deity, in fact, seems to be specifically excluded. It is Vishnu and Lakshmi but no Krishna. But it would be the same Rg Veda for both of us.

I like it, I can understand Sri Aurobindo, this is a lot more than the occasional quotes we have mainly used in spiritual research. Although I would have to say we are past his point. I would argue that Frawley and Ganapati Muni have rather successfully worked it to a certain stage, and, Rg Veda still has something more, from the view of Buddhist Yoga.

The potential in those materials is amazing and it may be a blasphemy on the part of these right-wing organizations.

I don't know anyone else, who, originally, opposed the creation of Israel, and, in recent years, turned around to admire it.


Nothing coming from me is intended to induce sectarianism. If I or we do not agree with Modified Dualism, it is still not any of my business of someone does and chants "Hare Krishna" while neglecting the Vedas. Only when this amounts to social or legal unfairness does it become a concern. That would be a fight, whereas it is entirely possible to have various practices in a population, and in this case, it is merely a discussion or debate on how to do it.


The fusion of rights, duties, and practices is incorporated in "your own" or Svadharma, which is sensible in this context:


to be insisted upon the subjects by the Kings

Matsya-purāṇa 215. 63; 225. 5.


but may need additional scrutiny when observed as:


of castes; departure from, leads to hell

Viṣṇu-purāṇa I. 6. 9, 41-2.


Traditional Brahmins and Buddhists are not strictly conjoined by law to the same ways:


Yogayājñvalkya 6.12, 16-6.19ab.—Accordingly, while discussing that yoga was practised by all four castes and women: “[...] [If] a Brahmin is learned in the Vedas and always devoted to his religious duties (svadharma), he should repeat a Vedic mantra and never a non-Vedic one."

Heretics of the future—[viz.] the Buddhist proponents of Gāruḍa Tantra—will worship them according to their own methods, devoted to their own ways (svadharma-nirata), dear child. They give rewards that accord with any disposition wise people worship them with, whether they be Brahmins or even lowborn outcastes.


So, no, there is not One Dharma enforced by state power. In fact, we still have not found the laws that truly implement Dharma, just some discussions and agreements that made the attempt.


Again, even in English, original Theosophy describes the mess pretty closely:


Originally an individual became a Brahmana through personal merit and initiation, but gradually priestcraft by degrees entered in, so that the son of a Brahmana became a Brahmana by right or family protection first, then by that of descent. The rights of blood-descent in time replaced the nobler rights of genuine merit, and thus arose the rigid cast of the Brahmanas.

Dvija and trisuparna, although still used in India, are used merely by courtesy and ancient custom; in archaic ages the titles were properly borne, because merited, and were descriptive rather than complimentary.

A second meaning as a noun is one of the portions of Vedic literature containing rules for the proper chanting and usage of the mantras or hymns at sacrifices, and explanations in detail of what these sacrifices are, illustrated by legends and old stories. These Brahmanas are “pre-eminently occult works, hence used purposely as blinds. They were allowed to survive for public use and property only because they were and are absolutely unintelligible to the masses. Otherwise they would have disappeared from circulation as long ago as the days of Akbar” (SD 1:68). Though the Brahmanas are the oldest scholastic treatises on the primitive hymns, they themselves require a key for a proper understanding of them which Orientalists have hitherto failed to secure. Since the time of Gautama Buddha, the keys to the Brahmanical secret code have been in the possession of initiates alone, who guard their treasure with extreme and jealous care. There are indeed few, if any, individuals of the present-day Brahmanical cast in India who are even conscious that such keys exists; although no small number of them, possibly, have intimations or intuitions that a secret wisdom has been lost which is uniformly understood to have been in the possession of the ancient Indian rishis.

It might readily happen that for the purposes of discipline and improvement of soul, a reimbodying ego might deliberately choose a body in which it would have to face, meet, and overcome a great many of what the world calls misfortunes. It is not always therefore in the best interests of a learning and evolving soul to be born “with a silver spoon in its mouth,” because with such surroundings as wealth and social position might bring, a weak soul could easily receive tendencies downwards because lacking the stern discipline urging it upwards and awakening the transcendent powers of the spirit within. Luxury, ease, power, and wealth are by no means always unmixed blessings, but quite frequently become positive misfortunes to weak souls.

[shaberon]

Often, working backwards, I understand things better.

I seized upon an ideology for the thread title, and only today we will take a glimpse at the ideologue.

This way, we already know the background and almost every single thing he might allude to. We do not have to biograph a person and then research what he is talking about. The deed is done, and we will fill in the remaining blank with the author of Hindutva, VD Savarkar (28 May 1883 – 26 February 1966).


These are the forces that assassinated Gandhi.

The main difference is that Gandhi was religious and hence pro-Brahmanical, whereas Savarkar is anti-caste. This one issue, however, would be many steps short of a full understanding.

Savarkar had a type of catharsis, i. e. committed violent acts since around age twelve when his foe was the British; and later he turns around and joins the British, and his foes were Christians and Muslims.

This seems to include no recognition of Indian Thomasene Christianity.

But this is a very interesting primitive branch, including Syriac, Assyrian, Chaldean, and Oriental Orthodox:


The Syriac term "Nasrani" is still used by St. Thomas Christians in Kerala.

In AD 190, Pantaenus from Alexandria visited these Christians. He found that they were using the Gospel of Matthew in the Hebrew language. Around AD 522, an Egyptian East Syriac monk, Cosmas Indicopleustes, visited the Malabar Coast. He mentions Christians in a country called Male, where pepper grows, in his book Christian Topography. This shows that until the 6th century these Christians had been in close contact with Alexandria.

In AD 883, Alfred the Great (849–899), King of Wessex, England reportedly sent gifts to Mar Thoma Christians of India through Sighelm, bishop of Sherborne.

These Christians were overhauled by the Portuguese and English and are now a small minority.


Jews were living in Kerala from the time of Solomon (Cochins).

Later, large numbers of them arrived in 586 BC and 72 AD.

There is, of course, no written evidence of a very early migration; sources given are:

Jews of India, Orpa Slapak. The Israel Museum, Jerusalem. 2003. p. 27.

P.M. Jussay, The Jews of Kerala, University of Calicut, 2005.

and from looking into Islamic Adam and the Ships of Tarshish, it is physically entirely likely that Arabs and Jews could have crossed the Indian Ocean in Solomon's time. I think it is more likely than not, but you would have to prove a Jewish skeleton to be sure.


So here, one should think of the straight line across the Indian Ocean as being Solomonic:





and this more detailed Greek view is a thousand years after that:






"Cheras" in mustard yellow is "Kerala".

These Jews also being mixed with later iterations have no descriptive connection to their "originality". In other words, there is no basket of texts to demonstrate a "Torah" lacking many of its parts. But it is even Jewish scholarship suggesting it was incomplete. This is partially obvious, such as for Prophets who are known to have lived during the Captivity, except the more significant finding would be there was no Genesis. We won't claim Torah was "written backwards" like the Rg Veda, but, instead, was a new and foreign addition from Babylon.


Ashoka did not conquer Kerala, so, it was not part of *that* India, and "deciding" when Kerala "is" India would be another question. The name Kerala was first written by Ashoka, although the region traded spice with Sumeria in 3,000 B. C. E. It's not near the Indus River. Not part of IVC. Independent from larger political units. Speaks Malayalam. Is that "India"? The earliest Sanskrit text to mention Kerala as Cherapadha is the late Vedic text Aitareya Aranyaka. Kerala is also mentioned in the Ramayana. Of course the neighbors knew it. Looks like it would have been very famous when nothing is discernible as "India".

Other regions of South India were Aryanized starting around 1,000 B. C. E. but:


The first batch of Brahmin immigrants came to Kerala in the 3rd century BC. This period coincides with the Mauryan age in north India. The Jains and the Buddhists also came to Kerala during the same period.

Is it Hindu?

Nambudiri Brahmins migrated there in the eighth century CE or so.


Tough question. It's Dravidian. It's not Indian or Aryan until the 700s, "Hindu" has no particular meaning, and it was an independent state with its own international trade network for a very long time. It's closer to original Christianity than it is to Brahmanism. But of course has its own folk deities, Nagas, etc., and so of course it has its own native cultural identity. Almost nothing in common, except it comes from the same gene pool of Ice Age immigration to the sub-continent. "Aryan and Dravidian" are the same in this context, and little else other than Tamil being pretty much the same as Sanskrit, but it is not a typical Keralite language. It is from the east coast. If we doubt there was much of any maritime travel before around 3,000 B. C. E., then of course everything was relatively isolated for several millennia without a common tongue.





Right now we want to hone in on the modern age of written records and see what this Savarkar cooked up.

Going from his Wiki page, he has founded this at perhaps our most important Buddhist area:



Savarkar developed the Hindu nationalist political ideology of Hindutva while imprisoned at Ratnagiri in 1922.

Savarkar joined the Hindu Mahasabha and popularized the term Hindutva (Hinduness), to create a collective "Hindu" identity as an essence of Bharat (India). Savarkar was an atheist.



He was educated in England and got in massive trouble:

On return to India, Savarkar was sentenced to life terms of imprisonment totaling fifty years and was moved to the Cellular Jail in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. He was released in 1924 by the British officials after he wrote a series of mercy petitions to the British. He virtually stopped any criticism of the British regime after he was released from jail.

Savarkar endorsed the idea of India as a Hindu Rashtra (Hindu Nation). Savarkar assured the Sikhs that "when the Muslims woke from their day-dreams of Pakistan, they would see established instead a Sikhistan in the Punjab." Savarkar not only talked of Hindudom, Hindu Nation and Hindu Raj, but he wanted to depend upon the Sikhs in the Punjab to establish a Sikhistan.

I'm not sure what message that sends to the Sikhs--and he seems to be mistaken about which area gained independence.

As to his influences:


Savarkar was greatly influenced by the radical Nationalist leader, Lokmanya Tilak.

Savarkar was influenced by the life and thinking of Italian Nationalist leader, Giuseppe Mazzini. During his stay in London, Savarkar translated Mazzini's biography in Marathi.


We will find him involved with the obscure newspaper that had reported the "Indian airplane" from the "Vimana" claim:

Savarkar as president of the Hindu Mahasabha, during the Second World War, advanced the slogan "Hinduize all Politics and Militarize Hindudom" and decided to support the British war effort in India seeking military training for the Hindus.

On 12 November 1964, at a religious program organized in Pune to celebrate the release of Gopal Godse, Madanlal Pahwa and Vishnu Karkare from jail after the expiry of their sentences, G. V. Ketkar, grandson of Bal Gangadhar Tilak, former editor of Kesari and then editor of "Tarun Bharat", who presided over the function, gave information of a conspiracy to kill Gandhi, about which he professed knowledge six months before the act. Ketkar was arrested.

Compared to who we just studied:


In 1956, he opposed B. R. Ambedkar's conversion to Buddhism calling it a "useless act", to which Ambedkar responded by publicly questioning the use of epithet ‘Veer’ (meaning brave) by Savarkar.


Well, yes, maybe I am supposed to take that as an arrogant blasphemy. He could at least have "become a Buddhist heretic". Useless? This man founded his own Yana. It may not be very in-depth, but at least it is not Mazzinist swill.



From his books:

Smuggled out of the prison, it was published by Savarkar's supporters under his alias "Maharatta." In this work, Savarkar promotes a farsighted new vision of Hindu social and political consciousness. Savarkar began describing a "Hindu" as a patriotic inhabitant of Bharatavarsha, venturing beyond a religious identity.


Savarkar saw Muslims and Christians as "misfits" in the Indian civilization who could not truly be a part of the nation. He argued that the holiest sites of Islam and Christianity are in the Middle East and not India, hence the loyalty of Muslims and Christians to India is divided.

He believed that religion is an unimportant aspect of "Hindu identity".

He was opposed to the caste system and in his 1931 essay titled Seven Shackles of the Hindu Society, he wrote "One of the most important components of such injunctions of the past that we have blindly carried on and which deserves to be thrown in the dustbins of history is the rigid caste system".

However, in 1939, Savarkar assured that his party Hindu Mahasabha won't necessarily support entry of the untouchables into temples. Savarkar said, "Thus the Party will not introduce or support compulsory Legislature regarding Temple Entry by the untouchables etc. in old temples beyond the limit to which the non-Hindus are allowed by custom as in force today."

Savarkar stood by Germany's right to Nazism and Italy's to Fascism; their achievement of unprecedent glory in the world-stage and a successful inculcation of national solidarity justified those choices.

He proclaimed his support for the German occupation of Czechoslovakia in the same breath... he expressed consistent support for Hitler's policy about Jews. In a speech on 14 October, it was suggested that Hitler's ways be adopted for dealing with Indian Muslims. On 11 December, he characterized the Jews as a communal force. Next March, Savarkar would welcome Germany's revival of Aryan culture, their glorification of Swastika, and the "crusade" against Aryan enemies — it was hoped that German victory would finally invigorate the Hindus of India.


In 1941, Savarkar supported Jews resettling their fatherland of Israel, in what he believed would defend the world against Islamic aggression.

In his 1963 book Six Glorious Epochs of Indian History, Savarkar advocated use of rape as political tool. He accused Muslim women of actively supporting Muslim men's atrocities against Hindu women, Savarkar wrote that young and beautiful Muslim girls should be captured, converted and presented to Maratha warriors to reward them, stating that the Muslim ruler Tipu Sultan had similarly distributed Hindu girls among his warriors.

As per Sharma, based on Swami Ramdas's teaching, Savarkar justifies the killing of countless British women and children in 1857.

Women had little children in their laps and these children were clinging on to their mothers. These women, infants and older children were guilty of being white and were decapitated with a black sword.

According to Sharma, Savarkar's celebration and justification of violence against [British] women and children in his description of the Mutiny of 1857, "transformed Hindutva into the very image of Islam that he defined and found so intolerably objectionable".

In his legacy:


The Shiv Sena party has demanded that the Indian Government posthumously confer upon him India's highest civilian award, the Bharat Ratna.

PM Narendra Modi pays homage to Savarkar, on his birth anniversary, at Parliament House,New Delhi on 28 May 2014.

The 2015 Indian Marathi-language film What About Savarkar?, directed by Rupesh Katare and Nitin Gawde, depicted the journey of a man's revenge against those who have disrespect Savarkar's name.



Hindutva is an ideology. The organization which proliferates it is the RSS or Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, which involves numerous political parties, such as BJP:

Drawing its inspiration from European fascist movements and groups such as the Italian Fascist Party, the organisation aims to spread the ideology of Hindutva to "strengthen" the Hindu community and promotes an ideal of upholding an Indian culture and its civilizational values.

The RSS leaders were supportive of the formation of Jewish State of Israel.

The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh initially did not recognise the Constitution of India, strongly criticising it because the Indian Constitution made no mention of "Manu's laws" – from the ancient Hindu text Manusmriti.

The RSS has advocated the training of Dalits and other backward classes as temple high priests (a position traditionally reserved for Caste Brahmins and denied to lower castes).

The movement considers Hindus as inclusive of Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, tribals, untouchables, Veerashaivism, Arya Samaj, Ramakrishna Mission, and other groups as a community, a view similar to the inclusive referencing of the term Hindu in the Indian Constitution Article 25 (2)(b).

Christophe Jaffrelot points out the theme of "stigmatisation and emulation" in the ideology of the RSS along with other Hindu nationalist movements such as the Arya Samaj and the Hindu Mahasabha. Muslims, Christians and the British were thought of as "foreign bodies" implanted in the Hindu nation, who were able to exploit the disunity and absence of valour among the Hindus in order to subdue them. The solution lay in emulating the characteristics of these "Threatening Others" that were perceived to give them strength, such as paramilitary organisation, emphasis on unity and nationalism. The Hindu nationalists combined these emulatory aspects with a selective borrowing of traditions from the Hindu past to achieve a synthesis that was uniquely Indian and Hindu.

Note RSS accepts Dalits, that being one of the few discrepancies from Hindutva.

So, yes, this can be construed as anti-caste, despite the thirst for Laws of Manu.

It is state-ist: you are from the geographical area, you are a Hindu.

It does not mention Apostle Thomas; if Thomas was from Palestine, Buddha was from Mithila, not India. Both of them simply used India as preaching grounds. Because Swayambhunath is in Nepal, by his logic, Buddhists have loyalty to or belong in Nepal, where they are really a 10% minority. The main reason that does resemble the truth is because Nepal preserves Sanskrit Buddhism, which has not happened anywhere else.

I am far from the first person to take issue with what he said. I never heard of him and just looked him up, and yes, he is like a puzzle piece clicking in to the issues I am already aware of.


Excerpted from B. Jeyamohan 2023 on finding him rather shallow:

Savarkar called for an armed rebellion against the British and made preparations for it. He was not grounded by a sense of either reality or history. He had no understanding of the power of the great administrative machinery of the British or their massive army. Lacking a sense of history, he failed to see that the British government drew its power from the popular acceptance it had gained from the millions of Indian people it ruled over.

How the British came to rule India

For context, the British came to power in India after the fall of the Mughal empire in an environment of utter chaos and anarchy. When they arrived, India was perishing in hundreds of petty wars. Armies had been disbanded and turned into bandit groups. The British brought about civil peace, created an orderly administration, and established a common law; therefore, the people of India accepted their rule. The situation at Savarkar’s time was that if a movement opposed the British without neutralising the popular acceptance the latter enjoyed, it would never gain mass appeal. Unfortunately, Savarkar did not grasp any of this.

The evil of the British rule lay in its ruthless economic exploitation of the country, which they unleashed through the local zamindars. In fact, the great famines that resulted from this exploitation caused a hundred times more deaths, destruction, and displacements than had occurred during the anarchic phase in India’s history. It was Gandhi, who, by highlighting this economic exploitation and demonstrating its practical effects on the nation, put forward a serious critique of the British regime among the Indian populace. Only after Gandhi’s intervention did the Indian freedom struggle become a people’s movement.

The early phase of the Indian freedom struggle saw the rise of many belligerent rebels. Later when it became a popular movement, their life stories were turned into sentimental sagas in order to appeal to the masses. These men were deified as iconic leaders of the freedom movement. Their populist appeal lay in the fact that democracy was still a novel concept and very few people appreciated the value of democratic leadership. However, hero worship had a two thousand year old legacy and therefore heroic tales of valour easily moved the public.

I do not consider Savarkar a coward, nor do I doubt his patriotism. There is no denying that he made sacrifices for the nation. However, I rate him a completely unacceptable political figure. This is my assessment based on his skewed understanding of history and his politics of violence.

Savarkar was a fundamentalist.

All forms of fundamentalism are the same in practice, because ultimately they posit an ideology as superior to the well-being of the people. Fundamentalists believe that no matter how many millions die to uphold their ideology, such sacrifice is justified; thus they remorselessly massacre millions.

In a word, he was a “Hindu Wahhabi”.

Borrowing the concept of a Hindu nation from Indian antiquity, he constructed a fundamentalist movement around it. Savarkar’s was the first home-grown fundamentalist thought to emerge on Indian soil.

That one is pro-Gandhi, pro-democracy; to which I can only say that no one is sure what democracy is. He has the intent of it being anti-Fundamentalist, and, he probably does have the right word there, distinguishing it from "Conservative". But he has omitted the Republics or Mahajanapadas of Buddha's time.

Let's call it pretty insightful for a modern Indian questioning the mainstream. The criticism is spot on.

The ideologue is found to be not very knowledgeable.


After Modi's act of reverence, P. Kulkarni explains the:


glorification of a defeated man

How then, one might wonder, did Savarkar acquire the title ‘Veer’?

[he pen-named his own biography]



He was good for one thing, making trouble, and changing its target after cringe whining to the British about getting out of jail.

He has one good point, eliminating caste to the extent of Untouchables.

Ambedkar offers the same conclusion, without Fundamentalism.


There are many groups, but, so far, Indian independence appears mostly triangulated between three schools of thought, those of Sarvarkar, Gandhi, and Ambedkar.



Hindutva or "Hindu-ness" is not "Hindu-ism", religious practices based on the Vedas, or even Puranas.

It has no caste, except the entire caste, persons born in what is considered India's geographical boundaries, unless they are Christians or Muslims, since their Holy Lands lie outside of it.

He does not match what the Theosophical Mahatmas said, is still considered a black-and-white antithesis to Gandhi, and does not grasp that Vedas and Buddhism are universal. In terms of knowledge they are. Mass movements are not the same as the dedicated seeking of knowledge.

I agree with Jeyamohan, that this sponge wrote a DIY called How to Be an Idiot.


As much as people should not be divided by caste or religion, they should not be united by Fundamentalist Fascism like they are in Europe, Israel, and, thanks to this, India.

An example of a culture is "Arabic", which is mainly characterized by a shared diet and language. It could have multiple religions, and usually cannot be compared to modern state boundaries. The culture of Morocco is pretty close to Lebanon. India has too many to count. Its shared culture consists of the Rg Veda. Kerala was not part of that until a rather late stage. Even so, if we were to say that multiple cultures all accepted an identical book, voluntarily, without force, that would be the element of unification. Close as you can get.

Again the fact of that book is phenomenally impressive.




We cannot form a precise picture of how caste laws rose and fell a few times, until around 1900 we can see everything. It may appear that Hindutva castelessness is in conflict with Gandhian laws that maintain it. That implies that a two-sided view will be forced, like Europe between the Christians and the Jews, whereas the truth or reality is not in either one of those sides. Like our Democrats and Republicans. Humanity tends to reduce things to this either-or binary, whereas the best option is "neither, not part of the narrative you have selected".


Indian politics is of course none of my business, unfortunately it is welded to what I might call mental heritage, mine being drawn from the Rg Veda through the end of the Pala Empire. That means I am taking 3,000 years of Indian texts to strive towards perfection. It does not consist of "one religion". It does object to injustice and falsehood in any form, no matter to whom. In the long run, I believe it may be closer to some strands of non-Buddhist Indian practice, than to some forms of Buddhism in the distributed countries.

None of that amounts to conflict, as it mostly consists of minor philosophical differences, certainly nothing political, until some party begins defining itself in some way that oppresses the humanitarian basics or is a deception.


The mentality of Sarvarkar is of such a low order that he will not require extensive analysis.

The distilled wisdom that he missed is almost never-ending.


A couple more looks at historical materials from different periods.

"Rg" being a type of specialized job, "Atharvan" is not really a "job", but an "achieved ability", which appears to have been necessary at the beginning of the Riks, through the complete Atharvaveda. The system, method, or tradition that could be called "Indian" is less accurately "Vedic", but "Atharvangiras", because it appears another "Vedic" system went west and became "Avesta", which is different enough to be divisive or a substantial disagreement. With its future or whatever happened to it, we are not really concerned. One should note that by name, some Bhrgus returned to or remained in the Angiras line.


Within the Angiras library, Atharvaveda has two surviving out of nine recensions, with different contents. The largest version is in Orissa.

We will quote a study on the version by Saunaka. This is noteworthy because it appears to be a "cycled" name:


Śaunahotra rescued Indra from an attack of the Asuras. Indra who was pleased at this, blessed Śaunahotra that he would be born in his next birth in the Bhṛgu family under the name "Śaunaka".

In Vāyu Purāṇa his genealogy is given in two forms.

i) Ruru (Pramadvarā)-Śunaka-Śaunaka-Ugraśravas

ii) Dharmavṛddha—Śunahotra—Gṛtsamada—Śunaka—Śaunaka. (Vāyu Purāṇa, 92, 26).


"Saunaka" means "son of Sunaka" and the article states his real name was:


Gṛtsamada (गृत्समद).—Name of a Vedic Ṛiṣi and author of several hymns in Ṛgveda.

of the family of Aṅgiras, but by Indra’s will transferred to the Bhṛgu family; author of most of the hymns of [Ṛg-veda ii])



which is, perhaps, a bit awkward for the lineage just given.

If we press his common name Saunaka for sources, it would appear to refer to two different eras, the first being:



divided the Atharva Samhitā between his two disciples Babhra and Saindhavāyana.

Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 35. 59-60; Vāyu-purāṇa 61. 52-3; Viṣṇu-purāṇa III. 6. 11-12.

A great ancient Vedic scholar who is believed to have written the Rk. Pratisakhya, which is said to be common for the two main branches of the Rgveda but which at present represents, in fact, all the different branches of the Rgveda.

He is believed to be the author of the famous works—"Ṛgveda Anukramaṇī", "Āraṇyakam", "Ṛkprātiśākhya", etc.


and a later one, who for example is mentioned in different areas in those same Puranas:


four castes were formed under him

Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 67. 4. 66. 88; Vāyu-purāṇa 92. 4-5.

a propagator of varṇa dharma.*

* Viṣṇu-purāṇa IV. 8. 6.

addressed Sūta as to the circumstances of the composition of the bhāgavata purāṇa

Bhāgavata-purāṇa IX. 17. 3; I. 1. 4; 4. 1-13; Matsya-purāṇa 1. 5; Vāyu-purāṇa 93. 24.


chief of the sages at the great sacrifice in Naimiṣa forest to whom the Mahābhārata and the Purāṇas were recited by the Sūta in the reign of Adhisīmakṛṣṇa, the great-grandson of Janamejaya and the sixth in generation from Arjuna in the Paurava line.—Vāyu-purāṇa 1.12; 99, 255-8; Padma-purāṇa 1.1.19.

A branch of the Bhārgavas; Kṣatropeta dvijas.*

* Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 1. 100; 67. 6; Vāyu-purāṇa 92. 6.

Ācāryas like Kātyāyana, Patañjali and Vyāsa belonged to his class.


That second one enters a more questionable class of literature, i. e. Mahabharata and Bhagavata Purana and what was referred to as a "Bhrgu re-installation". This again is a divisive sense meaning the inception of caste and theological tampering. The Vedic individual is scriptural and authoritative, while the latter is a claim or proposition.





Although it is mostly sociological, Women in Atharvaveda Samhita mentions over thirty goddesses, several of which I am completely unfamiliar with. Therein:

Perhaps, the act of sewing was also done by the women as the goddess Rākā is asked to do such works. Besides, the then women were occupied with agriculture also, which may be assumed from the connection of Sītā, a female deity with the same, as discussed latter. Dancing women also have been alluded to in the Atharvaveda.

The line of a ploughshare, made with the purpose of sowing seed is personified as the goddess Sītā. Hence, Sītā is the presiding deity of a furrow.

In the Atharvaveda, Indra is prayed to hold this Sītā. Pūṣan is asked to protect her.

This validates Sita being a Vedic deity who therefor is not an interpolation in the Puranas or a foreign impulse like the Flood Myth.





And there is also a published Harshacarita study:

It is found in the Hindu śāstras that there was no caste system in the society in earlier times; it developed in the later periods. In the beginning, the Hindu society was based on guṇa and karmaṇ.

The rigidity of the caste system and the theory of varṇāśramadharma took final shape in the time of Manu.

Jāti or caste means birth. But, varṇa, on the other hand, means to select or to choose. To be more precise caste is acquired by birth whereas ‘varṇa’ is assigned according to ones capabilities and mental tendencies.”

“A jāti is an endogamous hereditary social group that has a name and a combination of attitudes. All members of a jāti are expected to according to their jāti attributes, and each member shares has jati status in the social hierarchy of village locality in India.”

Caste identification was based on birth.

It is also mentioned by Bāṇa that an uneducated and short-tempered brāhmaṇa was given respect whereas an educated śūdra was looked-down for belonging to a lower caste at that time.

“In the varṇa system more stress is laid in action and not on birth. In the scope of varṇa system, a brāhmaṇa is respected only when he is educated and imparts the role of giving knowledge to others. Thus, varṇa emphasizes the ethical and intellectual capabilities of individuals.”

whereas during his life:

Although there was a caste system at that time, the people could associate with different castes without ruining any serious risk of losing caste or position.

Comparatively, the Thomasene Christians appear to have noticed the lockdown:


After the 8th century when Hindu Kingdoms came to sway, Christians were expected to strictly abide by stringent rules pertaining to caste and religion. This became a matter of survival.


Again it remains difficult to pinpoint the "time of Manu", but, this reflects the curb of strictness by Ashoka, and another resurgence which became domineering shortly after Harsha.

As a second type of misinterpretation, this may be fully literal:


In his time, the brahmāṇas performed the Paśubandha yāga (i.e., sacrifice of animals).



Describing outcastes:

Bāṇa also mentions the name of caṇḍālakanyā as Mātaṅgakumārī in his Kādambarī and they were out-siding of the noble family, so they were called anārya (i.e., uncultured). They covered their faces with many shrouds of the dead.

It is mentioned in the Manusaṃhitā also that caṇḍālas are not āryans, but have appearance of a āryan, and can be recognized only by their actions and works.


It is mentioned in the Manusaṃhitā that they were also known as dasyu (mleccha), whether they speak the language of the mleccha (barbarians) or that of the āryans. It is a sub-division of caṇḍāla caste.

In the Harṣacarita we find the description of bhila women in the Vindhyāraṇya, who were addressed as śavarike.

Harsha was an elected replacement after the death of the oldest son; kingship was usually hereditary, until there was difficulty in doing so:

After the death of Rājyavardhana, Harṣa came to the throne of Sthāṇvīśvara through selection by ministers and magistrates.

It is observed in the ancient polity that the kings tried their best to satisfy the subjects. Bāṇa describes that Tārāpīḍa removed all the grievances of his subjects and made his people happy from all side, establishment of good order in his state or all the usual duties of a king. King Harṣa also follows this duty and feels that the good make the world theirs by their goodness. Under the reign of the king Harṣa, the citizens were very much satisfied with him. He was always possessed of good friends and counselors and he was the only king of his time who possessed sovereign power. Happiness and justice always stayed in his kingdom.

It is observed in the ancient polity that the kings tried their best to satisfy the subjects. Bāṇa describes that Tārāpīḍa removed all the grievances of his subjects and made his people happy from all side, establishment of good order in his state or all the usual duties of a king. King Harṣa also follows this duty and feels that the good make the world theirs by their goodness. Under the reign of the king Harṣa, the citizens were very much satisfied with him. He was always possessed of good friends and counselors and he was the only king of his time who possessed sovereign power. Happiness and justice always stayed in his kingdom.

It is seen in the Harṣacarita, after the death of the king Prabhākaravardhana, the people of Sthāṇvīśvara immersed themselves in deep sorrow and then some people destroyed their unparalleled sorrow by fasting, some killed themselves by falling from precipices, and some resorted to the forest etc.

It was highly eclectic:

Bāṇabhaṭṭa mentions that at that time Buddhist had fairness and tolerance and, therefore, princess Rājyaśri was invoking Buddha in her distress time. Even at last, she wanted to accept Buddhism taking red robes [katyayani]. Although, the writer Bāṇa himself is an orthodox brāhmaṇa, he speaks about various Buddhist doctrines in his writings. He asserts king Harṣavardhana was follower of Buddhism.


It should be mentioned concerning the inscription of Harṣa that even in the royal family there was no strict adherence to a particular deity or form of faith.

Different types of ascetics, who came to meet the emperor Harṣa are described by Bāṇa. From the description of kṣapaṇaka, pārāśarī, mantrasādhaka, maskarī, eindrajālika etc. who were the friends of Bāṇa, it appears that there was complete religious tolerance at that time. From this description, again, it may be assumed that different religion and sects flourished in the writer Bāṇabhaṭṭa’s time, side by side having no conflicts among them. From the description of various sects present in one place, it infers that there were mutual understandings between them. Therefore, the Chinese traveler Hiuen Tsang mentions clearly “there were certain root-ideas, certain habits of taught and modes of life which were common to all.”


“Harṣa (descendent of puṣpabhūti, almost certainly of rival origin) was a Sun worshipper, follower of Maheśvara (Beal,I.222-3; E.I.4.211; 7.158) and Buddhist, devotee of ahiṃsā and war-lord-all at the same time.”


ādityhṛdayamantra muttered three times in a day by king Prabhākarvardhana to worship the Sun.

They were also reciting the mahāmāyurīmantra (i.e., one of the five amulets of Buddhists) for averting calamity.

Bana is referring to "the people" in that last line; Mayuri being in the oldest Gandharan texts, and a major if not main subject at Ellora.


Among a few interesting names, a feminized Shiva appears:

bhagavana Śūlapāṇi lived in a hill at the foot of the Kailāśa Mountain

Sarasvati is said to live at the River Mandakini, the celestial Ganges.

That is an important definition and there is more to it.

Having taken the lens of a study on it, we can, of course, do our own on the actual Harsha Charita.


Chapter VIII (the end) involves a Buddhist named Divakaramitra, whom Harsha discovers in this panoply that appears to include Christians:

Then in the middle of the trees, while he was yet at a distance, the holy man's presence was suddenly announced by the king's seeing various Buddhists from various provinces seated in different situations,--perched on pillars, or seated on the rocks or dwelling in bowers of creepers or lying in thickets or in the shadow of the branches or squatting on the roots of trees,--devotees dead to all passion, Jainas in white robes, white mendicants, followers of Krishna, religious students, ascetics who pulled out their hair, followers of Kapila, Jainas, Lokayatikas, followers of Kanada, followers of the Upanishads, believers in God as a Creator, assayers of metals, students of the legal institutes, students of the Puranas, adepts in sacrifices requiring seven ministering priests, adepts in grammar, followers of the Pancaratra and others besides, all diligently following their own tenets, pondering, urging objections, raising doubts, resolving them, giving etymologies, disputing, studying, and explaining, and all gathered here as his disciples. Even some monkeys who had fled to the 'three Refuges' were gravely busy performing the ritual of the caitya, while some devout parrots, skilled in the Shakya shastras, were explaining the Kosha, and some mainas, who had obtained calm by expositions of the duties of the monastery life, were giving lectures on the law, and some owls, who had gained insight by listening to the ceaseless round of instruction, were muttering the various births of the Bodhisattva, and even some tigers waited in attendance who had given up eating flesh under the calming influence of Buddhist teaching, while the fact that some young lions sat undisturbed near his seat shewed at once what a great sage he was, as he thus sat as it were on a natural lion-throne.

Bana is intriguing and let us remember at his time, Europe had no authors.

And the important part is here in this passage about the Moon, which suggests Bana is a terrible astronomer because it rises in the west:

"One day, as he was rising from the Eastern mountain, he beheld his own reflection in the pure water of the ocean, and as he gazed he fondly remembered Tara's smiling face, and, stirred with passion, even though in heaven, he dropped big tears from his eyes, which were as bright as if they had drunk up the radiance of all the lotuses. The pearl-oysters swallowed all these tears as they fell into the sea. When they had become pearls in the bellies of the oysters, the King of the snakes, Vasuki, dwelling in hell, somehow became possessed of them; and he made of them a single wreath which shone even in hell like a cluster of stars; and he called it Mandakini. By the power of the holy Soma, the lord of all plants, it became an antidote against all poisons, and in consequence of its having been produced from the moon which is the ever-cool fountain of ambrosia, its touch relieves the pain of all creatures. Vasuki therefore always carried it about with him to soothe the burning heat of poison.

"As time passed on, one day a mendicant named Nagarjuna was brought to hell by the nagas; he begged it from the snake-king as a gift and received it. When he went out of hell, he gave it to a king, his friend, Satavahana, the lord of the three oceans; and in course of time it came into our hands by the regular succession of pupil-hood. Although to offer a present to one so exalted as yourself is almost an insult, still I pray you to deign to accept it in consideration of its potency against poison, since you know the virtues of medicines, and, as you are ever engaged in helping all living beings, your life well deserves to be guarded." So saying he uncovered the pearl-wreath Mandakini, which was wrapped up in the skirt of the mendicant who was standing near by.

That is, for example, the same as the late Buddhist legend on how Nagarjuna retrieved the Prajnaparamita Sutra. Like a Purana, the scripture itself does not say this, and the story appears much later. And this becomes a well-known motif, with sometimes the hiding spot being an Iron Stupa with the Mahavairocana Sutra, and so on.

The point being that Harshacarita is a definite and early text compared to most Buddhist Purana-esque legends.

And it pins Nagarjuna to a Satavahana King, which of course narrows down his existence in time and space.

MMK describes Nagarjuna as a master of Mayuri mantra.

"Believers in God as a Creator" would be tenuous without knowing of the St. Thomas Christians.

It says everyone was debating, not having a creed forcefully stamped on them.

This is a quite small book, relatively recent and readily comparable to external sources.

In that case it is like an Epic, but easier, and perhaps better.

The temporal reign of Harsha is very poignant as he issued a Debt Jubilee and has an era named for him, Harsha Samvat, which proceeded into and continued in Nepal.

It would just be my personal reaction or opinion, then, that Harsha "could or should" be a better role model or identity than Sarvarkar. Not being in the position of trying to figure out how to be "Indian", I find this exemplary towards the mental heritage of the goodness of things that have origin in an Indic source.

My ancestors at that time were in the process of having their pagan system over-written by the installation of Roman Bishops. So on my own, then, I have nothing, unless I want something related to that, which I don't.


Kerala has recently unveiled the largest bird statue in the world, Jatayu the Vulture from Ramayana:


The statue is a representation of a legend, and symbolizes the protection of women, and their honour and safety.

Ravana was attempting to abduct Sita to Lanka when Jatayu tried to rescue her. Jatayu fought valiantly with Ravana, but as Jatayu was very old Ravana soon defeated him, clipping his wings, and Jatayu fell onto the rocks in Chadayamangalam. Rama and Lakshmana while on the search for Sita, chanced upon the stricken and dying Jatayu, who informed them of the battle with Ravana and told them that Ravana had headed South.

[shaberon]

Harshavardhana and the 600s; Harsha Carita and Rama Charita chronicles





Ashoka's or the Mauryan Empire did not persist very long.

If there continued to be nothing like "the country India" for quite some time, there was perhaps half of it under King Harsha. Saying that he dominated the sphere would probably be an exaggeration, but, he probably did have alliances and tributes from areas that he did not rule. Still the southern part of India is not much affected or incorporated.


There is some amount of discussion about whether King Harsha is or is not a good national symbol.


From a birthday tribute saying he started the Prayaga Kumbh:


History doesnt present another example of a king who gave away his wealth so freely to the believers of any faith & the needy as did this king.








Harappan Zebu:






Nalanda hs a record and shows a 750s Manasa Enthroned:


Between 606-647 CE, Nalanda owned 200 villages nearby with the grace of many generations of Pala kings.

but that page author may need to re-think this:


Eventually, in opposition to the university’s ideological inclination towards tantric doctrines and magic rites of Mahayana Buddhism, several competing mahaviharas cropped up in the area. To reproduce the university’s legacy, dynastic Pala rulers financed Vikramshila and Taxila, the new knockoffs of Nalanda, and urged the monks and potential student crowd to transfer there.




If we look at the 600s in Europe, the removal of classical Greek education was underway, and it is a turning point of censorship. The Debt Jubilee is buried.

In India, things were not like this, except the 600s relatively lack much literature, or famous spiritual commentators and so forth. Moreover, we can pretty specifically say that Nalanda University had evicted Yogacara, and, it was "won back" by Candragomin in the 660s. Also, Nepal appears to have directly taken Harsha's socio-political influence, and then, as a consequence of his actions, a Bengali Buddhist who emigrated and helped found the lineage of Nepalese Vajrayana Buddhism. This is before a verifiable Indrabhuti or any other kind of tantrist.

Harsha may not have been pan-Indic, but does, I would say, represent that positive outreach, at the time when "our system" really began to nosedive.


Here is the view of a modern Indian coming from Harsha as a positive example:

To my humble self, the root cause of this growing alienation of our educational system with moral and spiritual values despite explicit recommendations of all the Education Commissions, lies in the political leadership and its so-called wrong emphasis on distorted secularism.

‘Secularism’ as mentioned in the Preamble of our Constitution, should never mean ‘no to religion’ but simple that there is no State religion and the State must not be partial to any one religion. On the other hand we had introduced a reverent study of the essentials of all religions, it would have been uniquely rewarding today and much of the virus of religious fundamentalism would have been wiped out. This value of Sarvadharma-Samabhava is not a fad of Gandhiji, but is also in consonance with the spirit of our country. Secularism, as it has been presented by no less a national figure than Nehru, is a negative idea.

Harsha knows the esoteric aspect of Rudra in these Notes:


His capital had temples of Chandi and Mahakala and before embarking on campaigns he offered prayers to Nilolohita.



And, in his terminology, Jaina means "follower of a Jina" (conqueror of death), not "Jainism", and the term is applied to Buddhists.

Buddha usually said "Nigantha", and other expressions such as "Digambara" refer to "the Jains".



It could be said that he inherited certain conditions in History:

The land grants paved the way for feudal development in India from the fifth century onwards. From the sixth century, share croppers and peasants were particularly asked to stick to the land granted to the beneficiaries.

In the tribal areas, agriculturists were placed under the control of the religious beneficiaries, especially the brahmanas, who were granted land on a large scale.

The major portion of land continued to be in possession of free peasants, who paid revenues directly to the state. Besides this, the peasants were subjected to various impositions such as Udranga (frontier tax), Uparikara, tribute to the divisional officer called Uparika and had also to perform forced labour of all varieties (Sarva-vishti) probably for military purposes.

All this naturally caused deprecia­tion in the position of free peasants. The guilds of artisans and merchants also began to lose their earlier importance because of the decline of trade and urban life.

The rise of the quasi-feudal mode of production modified the varna-divided society. This period witnessed the ascendancy of varnasramadharma and it became an indispensable cornerstone of the Brahmanical social structure.

The position of women seems to have suffered a further decline during this period. Remarriage of widows was not permitted particularly among the higher varnas. Sati and dowry was prevalent during this period.


Harsha governed his empire on the same lines as the Guptas did, except that his administration had become more feudal and decentralised.

In the areas administered by the Samantas (feudal chiefs), the emperor realised annual taxes from them and not from the subjects.

Decentralisation of administrative authority was caused by increasing grants of land and villages with fiscal and administrative immunities to priests and temples. The vesting of magisterial and police powers together with fiscal rights on the priests evidently weakened the central authority.


With a view to popularise and propagate the doctrines of Mahayana Buddhism, Harsha arranged at Kannauj, a great assembly, which was presided over by Hiuen Tsang.

Further descriptions require understanding of an Enlightened Despot:


Confederated Monarchy

Jaigirdari Feudalism

Families were not registered, no forced labor, oppressive bureaucracy, or choking taxation

Return to self-sufficiency rather than surplus production


are descriptions of his reign.

Again, if it is prior and mostly external circumstances that have already dampened trade, sufficiency beats famine.


From the Rajput view:


Harsha united the small republics from Punjab to central India, and their representatives crowned him as a Maharaja at an assembly in April 606.

The peace and prosperity that prevailed in Bais scion Harsha's court, made it a cosmopolitanism centre which attracted scholars, artists and religious visitors from far and wide.

He built well-maintained hospices for travelers and poor people on highways across India.

Harsha was a tolerant ruler who supported all faiths and built many religious places. Harsha was a great patron of art and literature and made numerous endowments to Nalanda. The rites of puja, bhakti and Shakti now found full expression and Yoga schools blossomed under Harsha.


At the end of his tale, Guru Divakaramitra's body consists of the syllables of all sectarian treatises.

He is all of them and he is also Avalokiteshvara.

That makes perfect sense in the Nepali view. It makes sense chronologically. So far it appears that Avalokiteshvara is a southern deity from perhaps the 300s, who, for a while, approached Kerala without actually "taking it over" like the Nambudiri Brahmans, and the influence was re-directed and entered Bengal, which is why a king attacking this would be considered particularly evil by Buddhism in the MMK.

In turn, this being who Harsha defeats.

It is unclear that this king literally wiped out Buddhism or its Stupas. The perhaps more official name is Shashanka for the assassin of Harsha's older brother, and one of the most certain things about him was that he was the enemy of Bhaskara Varman of Assam, which is significant to Buddhism and Kamakhya Devi. The Varmans in turn making alliances with Harsha. At that point, I am not sure Assam is "India", or even ruled by Harsha, but he opened something that had not happened before. The only recorded Assamese history is a list of five or six prior Varman kings. It must have been the Eastern Silk Road for who knows how long, and there are no records.


Afterwards, the usurper of Harsha's throne, Arunasva, attacked the Chinese Ambassador in such a way that led to Tibetan invasions that repercussed in India and Nepal. So whatever may have been Harsha's setup was rather quickly demolished in its own place. Consequently, Buddhism spreads to Tibet and by Maw Rong towards the east. That ispractically indistinguishable from military action.


The second noticeable point--about his new era Harsha Samvat--is that it is the first thing I know of that has a definite beginning.

It is not the year that he took the throne, but, more likely, his birth date. At any rate, it is not a reversed astronomical calculation (such as Kali Yuga), nor a grasp at another historical figure and trying to retrofit an estimate onto them. It is a pure fiat; a happening; apparently what a Samvat is supposed to be.

In India, his calendar was hardly subsequently kept; in Nepal, the equivalent epoch for Harsha Samvat is:


Amsu Varman as Amsu Samvat


which remained in use for centuries up until our year 879. The oldest known Skanda Purana is dated in Amsu Samvat 119 corresponding to our year 810.


And the oldest written proof of Nepalese Buddhism is his inscribed donation to Gum Vihara in 32 Amsu Samvat. This is at Sankhu, externally known as Vajrayogini, and internally as the red- and yellow-faced mothers:


Hyaumkhvah maju and Mhasukhvah maju


It would probably be about three years into his actual reign, by or around 610.

Slightly confused that the date does not refer to Harsha's ascendancy, but suggesting Harsha's "takeover" of Nepal probably just indicates a Varman alliance:

An inscription, dated Sri Harsha Samvat 34 by the Nepalese Rajah AmsuVarman, has been discovered 4 miles to the south of Katmandu. We are told by Yuan Chwang that "lately there was a king called Amsu Varman in Nepal who had written a book on Sabda Vidya."

....he used an Indian era which was only recently instituted. As we know that eras are established only by king's claiming to be sovereign of the whole of Arya Varta...

Amsu was like a Tyrant or Carolingian, took power by unofficial means, owing to popular support for being the one to manage the work.

Not lasting in India, Nepalese Thakurs used their equivalent of Harsha Samvat, which as corresponding to one of the main Indian systems is:


the Saka era of 78,

the Amsuvarman era of 576


It is mentioned on a study of the inscriptions of Amsuvarman and the Thakurs which are interesting in several ways:


Candragomin and that a "Gomin" is an "Upasaka" who is like an "Atharvan", i. e. educated and has some realization

Pashupati, Changu Narayan, and Vajrayogini were all gifted shortly after his taking power

Bhrkuti's miraculous birth

Dalai Lama corresponds with Lord Cornwallis


It does not quite pinpoint the best starting date. One train of thought is that it is Saka era minus 500. Saka Samvat is a retrofit, i. e., has a guess for the beginning. Even if this was the method used, you would still have a definite beginning, when replacing it.

The other idea is that it represents Harsha's birth.

Without saying for sure, this calendar had a certain marked beginning around our year 576-8. Of course, the western one is a retrofitted guess. This one begins in the 600s because someone said so, and they did not consider it year zero or one, and added a figure that was rather small.


Nepal Samvat begins in our year 879 by the Thakurs who established Kathmandu, and were then driven back towards Mithila, while the Khas Mallas came in from the west and took over by around 1200. This may be the closest thing to an "invasive takeover" that has happened to Nepal.

Modern Nepal means Khas having taken over the Newars.

The Thakur era brought in the namesake and heritage of "Newar" which revolves around Nanyadeva, involving:


Goddess Taleju followers of Ayodhya Solar Dynasty


having moved from Konkan or Maharashtra to:


Chandra Bhaga surrounding the Kullu Valley in Himachal Pradesh


Defeating Ramapala to attain it, he took power in Mithila in 1097, in a racial amalgam that re-vitalized the uncorrupted Vedic Aryanism of the Vedic-era kings, along with Buddhism. Later Khas and Rana Dynasties has ostensible reasons to downplay or cover this up. His Wiki page does not deal with this, but is willing to say:


Many modern scholars, as well as the people of the region, view Nanyadeva as a "son of Mithila" who liberated the region following the fall of the Videhan monarchy. The Karnata rule is not viewed as foreign as they established their power in Mithila itself, unlike others who ruled from outside.

"Videha" as a region may be meaningful in the sense above, but, as a personal name, refers to the ancient kings. They began the unusual custom of Nagarvadhu ("courtesan of the republic") such as Pingala or Amrapali:


The price to see Amrapali's art form was fifty Karshapanas per night, and her treasury grew much larger than the treasuries of some kings.


She is particularly important to Buddha himself:






From this quick glance, I would suggest Harsha and Amsuvarma as some of the most extraordinary characters.

Amsuvarman is colossal with respect to Nepal and Buddhism.

Harsha had a long reign over a large part of India.

After him, the Palas built almost as much, and then the Mughals paved the north, would we turn around and suddenly say the southern states must be Indian? The ones who accepted the Vedas when they were thrust onto them.

If I were Keralite, and knew my locale was as significant as Dwarka or IVC, and before that it goes back into unidentifiable dolmens and other stone age structures, I might have a hard time seeing how it was the same nation as Kashmir or Bengal.

I could understand it was the same genetic wave from the Ice Age. You can't call that a "country".

The most fervent nationalist wanted to keep Paks as Indians, and grant a homeland to the Sikhs.

Harsha's era probably relaxed and eased some aspects of caste, and, it seems to be widely accepted that it was shortly after him that it kicked in full gear and that is when Kerala gets the Brahmins. You lose the primitive forms of Cochin Judaism and Christianity which had not been a problem there. Buddhist Orissa along with Jagganath becomes tremendously influential, although this declines as Pala Buddhism becomes more influential in the north.


Without a unified India, it is then easy to find nations of different languages and symbols. Inevitably this is shown by the multiple Puranas and the main subject that comes to mind is Sharabha:



The Shaiva scriptures narrate that the god Shiva assumed the form of Sharabha to pacify Narasimha - the fierce man-lion avatar of Vishnu worshipped by the Vaishnava sect.

The Vaishnavas refute the portrayal of Narasimha as being destroyed by Shiva-Sharabha and regard Sharabha as a name of Vishnu. Some Vaishnava scriptures suggest that Vishnu assumed the form of the ferocious Gandabherunda bird-animal to combat Sharabha.

The Chola dynasty in Tamil Nadu was particularly favourable to the beliefs of Shaiva sect. It is said that the sectarian aspect got highlighted during their reign. This is evident from the four Sharabha images, the earliest at the Vikramsolishwaram temple near Kumbakonam built by Vikrama Chola (1118–35).





The Gandaberunda was the emblem of the erstwhile Kingdom of Mysuru under the Wodeyar rulers, and after India attained independence, it was retained by the Mysuru State as its emblem. The aforementioned state was enlarged in 1956 and renamed Karnataka in 1973, and the Gandabherunda continues to be the official state emblem of Karnataka.


Wodeyar being Kannada for "lord":

The early kings of the Wodeyar dynasty worshipped the Hindu god Shiva. The later kings, starting from the 17th century, took to Vaishnavism, the worship of the Hindu god Vishnu.




On the eighteenth day, Gandaberunda defeated Sharabha and tore him into shreds. Sharabha then pleaded and appealed to Narasimha to forgive him for his actions, after which the deity regained his sense of calm. As a mark of respect, Sharabha removed the skin of his body and presented it to Gandaberunda. Peace having been restored to the universe, Vishnu and Shiva assumed their true forms and returned to their abodes of Vaikuntha and Kailasha respectively.


With that thought in mind, the current state symbol perhaps makes sense.

Karnataka was the southern extent of Ashokan inscriptions:







To parse what has been discussed using a filtered timeline:


700 BC: the caste system emerges, with the Brahman priests at the top

543 BC: Chalukya's king Pulakeshin founds a dynasty in Karnataka with capital at Badami/Vatapi

527 BC: prince Siddhartha Gautama is enlightened and becomes the Buddha

521 BC: Darius of Persia expands the Persian empire beyond the Indus River (Punjab and Sind)

259 BC: the Mauryan king Ashoka, grandson of Chandragupta, converts to Buddhism and sends out Buddhist missionaries to nearby states, and forbids animal sacrifices this relegating Brahmins to second class citizens

300 BC: the Chola dynasty rules over southern India with capital in Thanjavur

184 BC: the Maurya ruler Brihadratha is assassinated by Pushyamitra Sunga/Shunga, the Maurya dynasty ends and the Sunga dynasty begins, restoring the Brahmins to their influence while persecuting and slaughtering Buddhist monks

52 AD: Thomas, an apostle of Jesus, settles in Kerala

200: The Sunga state adopts the "Manu code"

250: the Satavahanas disintegrate

350: the Puranas are composed (a compendium of Hindu mythology)

606: Harsha Vardhana, a Buddhist king of the Pushyabhuti dynasty, builds the kingdom of Thanesar in north India and Nepal with capital at Kanauij in the Punjab

610: Pulakeshin II becomes king of the Chalukyas

625: Pulikesin extends the Chalukyan empire in central India

647: Thanesar king Harsha Vardhana is defeated by the Chalukyas (based in Karnataka) at Malwa (central India)

650: Ellora caves

650: the Pallavas, who rule from their capital at Kanchipuram (Tamil Nadu), are defeated by the Chalukyas

723: Kathmandu is founded in Nepal

1014: Rajendra Chola I becomes the Chola ruler of the south and defeats the Palas in Bengal and invades Sri Lanka

1017: the Cholas conquer Ceylon (Sri Lanka)

1018: Mathura is raided by Mahmud of Ghazni, who destroys many of its temples

1019: Mahmud Ghaznavid destroys Kanauj, capital of the Gurjara-Pratihara empire

1084: Mahipala brings the Palas to the peak of their power

1197: The Muslim Ghuris destroy the Hindu monasteries at Nalanda and Vikramashila, killing all the monks and burning all the books

1200: Qutb al-Din Aibak's general Bakhtiyar Khalji destroys Nalanda University



I, at least, after that point am not looking for more intellectual history or that development of those Sanskrit sadhanas that I find meaningful and useful.

Anything resembling a future "country" is largely run by foreigners, bringing a mix of exploitation and deterioration. The British were probably the least directly destructive and the most guilty of grand theft on an industrial scale.

From my view, not having a valid national identity or culture is what got me into this.

In that way, I can only say I have a Karmic affinity to Angiras Gotra, similar to the thing that is supposed to move you into a "caste", which should really just be a "type of employment". Such a Gotra is not exactly a "religion", but a universal Dharma. Like a job, it should be available to the extent you are able to work your way into it.

When I pursue what is supposed to be a mental way of entering the Dharma, and I find the same sources pressed through grates of what I would call errors, and, the result is Fundamentalism as identified by some Indians themselves for the same reason, we are in an awkward position. It is like still trying to work around Dayanand Sarasvati as the original Theosophical Society. If we take the 1875 teachings, as that which would motivate us towards the best parts of the original authentic scriptures and so forth, I think it would be what we are doing. Either the TS or Buddhism is going to revert me to the same Rg Veda and hence the same historical chain as anyone else, only being any different by the emphasis on select Sanskrit Buddhist materials, for my personal purposes.


Interestingly, "Yavana" is Hebrew Malayalam for Greek/Ionian.

Their modern genetics are mostly Indian female. Otherwise, they match "Middle Eastern Jewish", with the addition of the expected diasporas starting with Yemen. This does not deny, but cannot confirm, an original migration at Solomon's time--you would still have to find remains of that era.



The exact words of the Gotra I am speaking of were written by King Ramapala.

The sub-argument is that it takes a few centuries of linguistic and literary development for this to be possible ca. year 1,000.

The Palas never ruled over "all India" and most of them were avid Buddhists, we say the dynasty was started by goddess Cunda, which may have to do with Gopala being elected in Bengal without any dispute. Several Palas are known of, and, in turn, there happens to be another--not quite Epic, but, a "nationalistic narrative" like Harsha's, entitled Ramacharitam:

The Ramacharitam attests that Varendra (North Bengal) was the fatherland (Janakabhu) of the Palas. The ethnic origins of the dynasty are unknown...The Pala dynasty has also been branded as Shudra in some sources such as Manjushri-Mulakalpa. A medieval writer Abul Fazl going by this tradition described these kings as Kayasthas. André Wink mentions that the founder, Gopala was elected, and "definitely not of royal blood but probably of a line of brahmans which transformed itself into kshatriyas".

The Pala period is considered one of the golden eras of Bengali history. The Palas brought stability and prosperity to Bengal after centuries of civil war between warring divisions. They advanced the achievements of previous Bengali civilisations and created outstanding works of arts and architecture. The Charyapada in Proto-Bengali language was written by Buddhist Mahasiddhas of tantric tradition, which laid the basis of several eastern Indian languages in their rule.


Though biased in favour of Ramapala, the work remains the only literary source for middle-late Pala history including Varendra Rebellion.

Mahipala II imprisoned his brothers Ramapala and Surapala II, on the suspicion that they were conspiring against him. Soon afterwards, he faced a rebellion of vassal chiefs from the Kaibarta (fishermen). A chief named Divya (or Divvoka) killed him and occupied the Varendra region.

Varendra was ceded away from Palas, and the House of Kaivartas were established for around half a century.

The poem, in four cantos, details the historical events in Bengal from the assassination of the Pala emperor Mahipala II (ca. 1075) by Divya, a rebel Kaivarta samanta, up to the reign of Madanapala (ca. 1144-1152) in 215 verses, employing double entendre. The central theme is the loss and subsequent recovery of Varendra.

After gaining control of Varendra, Ramapala tried to revive the Pala empire with some success. He ruled from a new capital at Ramavati, which remained the Pala capital until the dynasty's end. He reduced taxation, promoted cultivation and constructed public utilities. He brought Kamarupa and Rar under his control, and forced the Varman king of east Bengal to accept his suzerainty.

The descendants of the Palas, who claimed the status of Kshatriya, "almost imperceptibly merged" with the Kayastha caste.

The gigantic structures of other Viharas, including Vikramashila, Odantapuri, and Jagaddala are the other masterpieces of the Palas. These mammoth structures were mistaken by the forces of Bakhtiyar Khalji (ca. 1197-1206) as fortified castles and were demolished.

In Bengal:

The Ramacharitam is the only Sanskrit text, composed in Bengal by a poet of varendra (North Bengal), which had a contemporary historical event as its main theme. As such it is considered to be an authentic source for the history of the late Pala period.

The verses were composed in a rare Sanskrit figure of speech called shlesa (double entendre) providing two different meaning simultaneously by play of words. Read one way it gives the well-known story of the Ramayana and the other way it gives the history of Ramapala of the Pala dynasty of Bengal. The second meaning could only be understood from the prose commentary (tika) in one of the two manuscripts found so far, which, however, ends with the 35th verse of the second canto. As a result it is difficult to reconstruct the second meaning of the last 14 verses of the second and the 48 verses each of the third and fourth canto.

The loss of Varendra to the Kaivarta chief Divya (Divyoka) was equated with the loss of Sita to Ravana and her retrieval by Rama has been equated with the reoccupation of Varendra by Ramapala. Then he continued the history of the Pala kings to the beginning of Madanapala's reign in the last two cantos of the text. An appendix has been added, Kaviprashasti, in which the poet calls himself Kalikalavalmiki (Valmiki of the Kali age) and gives his genealogy and explains the nature and style of his work.

This is the only important literary evidence for the history of ancient or early medieval Bengal, and, being a contemporary work, it is of immense value for the reconstruction of the history of the period covered by it.

Haraprasad Shastri discovered a palm-leaf manuscript of the kavya and published its text in 1910. Subsequently two more editions with English and Bangla translations were published respectively in 1939 and 1953. [AM Chowdhury]

Having a Kerala manuscript:


16th Century AD

Languages:
Sanskrit

Scripts:
Malayalam

"The original material is in the custody of Narayanan Namboodiri Parippayi Illam, the current head of the family."

The earliest extant literary work in Malayalam is Ramacharitam (which only treats the Yudha Kanda).


From that perspective, it looks like they think it is the Ramayana, only. These texts are not online in Romanized characters as far as I can tell, so, we don't know if it may be a poetized copy of the similar story of Ramapala, and we have to rely on snippets about the Bengali one. If you did not know the code then "Rama Charita" would tell you "Deeds of Rama" and so you would expect it to be a short Ramayana. Or, they could have just renamed the Yudha Kanda.



Ramapala is another conciliatory success story.


Ramapala is the perfect Kayastha since from what I have seen, he does not elaborate or introduce anything. He simply copies/agrees with/summarizes the argument of the Vikramasila Yogacarins.

Kayastha or Scribe was a very important office in early Bengal, concomitant with early writings on Buddhist tantra. The tantras are in one sense the "full teaching" of what is in Namasangiti, or, they are the teaching in the proto-Bengali Charyapada or Baul songs. In other words there is written explanation of Bengali Buddhism before there is of Bengal. This system is not terribly different than Vedic hymns anticipating further detail so they are not empty names.

Luipa was a similar important Kayastha in early Vikramasila, and, most likely, he was that Manjughosha who elaborates Jnanapada's system, and probably transmitted Chakrasamvara, which looks like it has a western influence from Konkana or Maharastra.

Nagarjuna, Guhyasamaja, Mahamaya, and Catur Pitha appear to be southern, which is why it appears to take time, one or two generations, for the material to be absorbed into the Vikramasila corpus, after the previous.


Part of the point is that the scribes provide a lay person's Sutra-based spiritual yoga which could be called:


Gomin or Sahajayana


which is a refined view of the normative or orthodox Mahamudra. The argument works around or explains the mysterious subject of initiations. And so it moves into the court of the capable person the ways to use the energies of subtle yoga. The verbal argument might take someone about two years to effectively learn, but subtle yoga is the same natural process as used in Nath or Laya Yoga. It will either be an insurmountable barrier, or, something that affects you powerfully. And so the Sahajayana is like a way of letting your Karma place you into the deepest point of the commentary you can. and so you have a written guide, whereas most of us would have terrible difficulty living at the feet of a Guru for personal instruction.

I am going to say it is safe and reliable.

I have no say in the national heroes of a modern country.

Even without the aspect of Buddhism, Ashoka, Harsha, and Ramapala would still remain among the most important figures of their time.


Buddha wrote nothing, and, Pali Suttas appearing before anything else does not quite give them such an exclusive domain. The man frequently preached to crowds for about fifty years. Ashoka is the first possible of anything written about it, Ramapala is the ultimate destination.


It is through no intention that the value I personally place on these writers is equivalent to them being good and strong examples in the sociological sense, almost beyond comparison. That is how they seem to stand but India under her Constitution does not seem to follow through.

[shaberon]

Stars and Animals






Here, we are a little closer to a concrete, accurate history of India. For me personally, I wanted a realistic background for Indian Buddhism, which is deeply tied to, but at cross purposes of, the Fundamentalists.


This is drawing from a thread where we are not yet sure about the meaning of IVC Seals or the "Meluhha" recorded by the Akkadians. In fact we cannot say IVC represented a single language or culture, and less likely a single or even a major kingdom. I am not sure that any evidence of battle has been found anywhere at most of the older sites.

We have found the Bull as one of the most common motifs in any style of mythological art.

The Indian Zebu Bull is shown in Elamite seals of ca. 3,000 B. C. E..

Its genetics have been found interbred all the way to Ukrainian cattle around this time.

Then, Elam is considered to have notable influence on Bactria, which begins urbanizing and the use of seals ca. 2,500 B. C. E.. Meluhha becomes known for Ivory Birds, and Bactria is known for an Eagle design which appears to take over and actually delete the original IVC Seals, shortly before the system goes out of use by 1,500 B. C. E. During this period, Elam and Meluhha join forces around 2,270 B. C. E. and fight Rimush, son of Sargon, who appears to invent mass slaughter.


Then it is fairly certain Indians went to the Mittani highlands questing for iron, there was the design of the spoked-wheeled chariot there, and a new, heavy style of fighting. This was lost to the Hittites, and if there was any lingering Indian influence, it may have gone to Kassite Babylonia. Zebu genetics discontinue contributing to the western stock.


What should be apparent is that right after Rimush, there are droughts that harm Akkadia and IVC.

It seems to me the events recorded in the Rg Veda are after Rimush, and before the historical Mittani kingdom.


We figure that Aryas are a Sanskrit-speaking neighbor of Vindhyavasinis around Jhusi ca. 7,000 B. C. E. of Ila and Pururavas. The tribes are believed to have assisted Aryas with the beginning of stationary agriculture, using Indian wild rice, and then we find the addition of Chinese domestic rice, perhaps around the time of the settlement of Kashi ca. 2,500 B. C. E.. This area does not have major settlements or writing as far back as IVC.

Within India, all the way to Madhya Pradesh or central India, there must have been an arc influenced by Assamese. That links to the end of the IVC information thread.


This is part of what we would have to call a much older form of writing than the seals, which were probably a foreign idea.

Modern Gonds think the place is haunted and cursed by witches.

On p. 13 the image of Boar Chases Crab over Woman is why the paintings are likely Korku.


Assam is itself the boundary marker of the Meghalayan Age:

Archaeological evidence documents widespread abandonment of the agricultural plains of northern Mesopotamia and dramatic influxes of refugees into southern Mesopotamia, around 2170 BC, which may have weakened the Akkadian state. A 180-km-long wall, the "Repeller of the Amorites", was built across central Mesopotamia to stem nomadic incursions to the south. Around 2150 BC, the Gutian people, who originally inhabited the Zagros Mountains, defeated the demoralised Akkadian army, took Akkad and destroyed it around 2115 BC.

We don't really know about IVC empires or kingdoms, but of course it is partly abandoned and shifts eastward.

We see what is in the seals and so we are asking questions about the continuity of Boar and Tiger particularly, and they are in the pre-historic paintings.


Also, in the sense that "people remember important events", something that would come to anyone's attention is a Supernova, such as written in Chinese near Antares ca. 1,300 B. C. E..

remnant J1714-3939

This is considered to be a young remnant, because the X-ray spectrum indicates a high temperature. From the picture of a blast wave running out to the observed size with an initial energy typical of a supernova the age is estimated as 3000-5000 years, in agreement with the Chinese record which indicates a supernova about 3500 years ago.



That was called "big", and, there was another one we will wonder if is big:

100 times as brightly as Venus

or comparable to the moon.


This is in Auriga which is mostly a Gap.

But with modern equipment you start finding more remnants:


This ROSAT All-Sky Survey image shows a newly discovered supernova remnant (the roughly circular emission near the top of the field) and the supernova remnant HB-9. The star Capella is clearly visible to the left of the image. The extended emission to the lower right from HB-9 is a cluster of galaxies containing a thousand galaxies. The image Auriga (X-ray Colors) displays the relative hardness of the X-rays making up this image.






and here is a recent personal effort from Astroanarchy:











with a nebula:













So, we don't know exactly when, or, if a rock from Kashmir really means this, but Auriga is the charioteer with the goat in his arm. Not originally. But we will keep this constellation in mind.

If such astronomical events are not blatantly obvious in the records, over in the land of writing, the Minoan Eruption of Thera is not recorded either. It may be confused with the Alaskan eruption of Aniakchak II, and may have been later, up to about 1,500 B. C. E.. It probably was extremely powerful.

Its tsunamis may have resembled a Biblical Flood, whereas the Younger Dryas Impact and the rise of the Black Sea were probably rather benign.

So far, I don't think humanity is that great about recording cataclysms, except Drought as in the Rg Veda and the flood of Hastinapur; however, the latter was only around 800 B. C. E., and yet said to be shortly after Mahabharata. Lal's original report p. 23 suggests this date. We, or at least I, do not take Mahabharata as being more than suggestive, as it may combine this with Dwarka II or maybe III. It may have removed the identity of King Sudas. So it is a derivative, not primary source.




Written Records




Animal Hieroglyphs are the closest thing to a "common tongue" in the ancient international scene, so, perhaps they are close to a "native tongue" in India. On the other hand, the Zodiac or Wheel of Animals is probably not Indian, which is why it appears they accepted a substantial portion of it--but rather than the star signs, India seems more interested in the division of the year in twelve sections, so the Twelve Adityas personify the Sun at different times.


We are trying to get a physical sequence, rather than calculating estimates about the stars, or how many places tin got mixed with copper when, or any other idea. This is mostly determined by geology, C14, genetics, and what kinds of artifacts are present.

The only place with a comparable chronology that I am aware of would be Syria. India's scale looks like this:




Bhimbetka (Rock Art, Shelter Dwellers) 10,000 B. C. E.

Bhirrana:


Period I (Hakra Wares, Pit Dwellers, Lapis Lazuli) c.7500-6000 BCE

Period IIA (House Dwellers, Bull figurines) c.6000-4500 BCE

Period IIB (Castle Dwellers) c.4500-3000 BCE

Period III (Seal users, Meghalayan Age) c.3000-1800 BCE

Nirmand



When we get to Nirmand, we have reached a new-ish settlement that is on the cusp of IVC and the Aryas. And there is the difficulty that it must have been excursions from here that acquired the Beas River and Manali, which is where Vyasa compiled the Vedas in their current four-fold form. The defeated Kirats almost certainly moved to Nepal or Kathmandu Valley, gained kingship, and started the Kirat Dynasty there.

So Nirmand is a conundrum at all those inflection points.

Haryana, which has the oldest (Bhirrana) and largest (Rakhigarhi) IVC sites, becomes the area inhabited by Vedic Sages.

PC Kasyap published the thesis that Nirmand is IVC. He also accepts that Parasurama made the land grant for the temple for the Sraddha of Renuka.



Person on a boar holding possibly a mirror (Panjurli?):






Coming up with ca. 1,900 B. C. E. for King Sudas and 1,400 for Mahabharata--finding Kassite Ware in Dwarka--Benedetti also says:


B.B. Lal has advocated the thesis that Rgvedic Aryans were the Harappan people, observing the correspondence of their geographical area and the drying up of the Sarasvati River — so important in many hymns of the Rgveda — happened around the 2000–1900 BCE as shown by the abandonment of KÀlibangan.



S. Tiwari is saying something similar, and taking the common U-shaped symbol as Tree and has some interesting plates.


Again, inevitably, it must be partially true. But it would be misleading to imply that has anything to do with the *beginning* of IVC, or, what is found in the Seals, which does not overtly concern the Vedas. The IVC settlements of Haryana and the edges of neighboring states most likely became Vedic converts; it is noted that while other areas were being abandoned, Haryana grew, or tripled in sites.

The Parasurama story is one of Vedic colonization, far more than just at Nirmand.

He also spreads Dattatreya and Sri Vidya.

His vanquished foes convert to Weavers with Hingula Mata.


In Rg Veda he has no personal story. He is simply mentioned as existing.

So, it is not about religious bigotry, however it promotes its own unique rite of Soma Offering. It doesn't really teach anything about it. So you have to slip outside of the scripture to understand it. It is like saying Dharma is a value that does not connote any specific legal system. It has to be filtered through experience.

So far, we would say that Atharvan is the knower of/explainer of the actual subjects in the Vedas. If you are a priest you just memorize stuff. The Atharvan is like a yogi, has gained new insight from success in the practices. Some of the Atharva Veda quotes the Rg Veda, and, some of its own language is believed to be possibly older. Even though it is not as big, it is probably a much longer-running compilation. Some parts such as Germ Theory may be as late as 1,000 B. C. E., and, it defines India or the Aryas as followers of Atharvan Angiras, contrasted to Bhrgu, who probably joined the western challenger kings. That is the closest thing known to a "denomination" or a "variation on scripture".

At the same time, its more significant subject is Atharvana Bhadrakali, i. e. a goddess.


Of course, there are Venuses everywhere, but there is not information about them prior to writing. Frequently in Rg Veda, we find Prithvidyava or EarthSky, a dual deity, who in various scenes is "separated". The Sky God of IVC is quite possibly the Gharial or Crocodile rather than the Bull which seems standard from Sumeria onwards.


Originally, the goddess scripture is Devi Suktam from Rg Veda, which according to tradition is a preliminary for Candi Path from perhaps the 600s. The eight verses of the Devi Suktam were composed by Vak, daughter of Maharshi Ambharin, and are from the Rig Veda (10th mandala, 10th anuvaka, 125th sukta). These shlokas express the truth realized by Vak, who identifies herself as Brahma Shakti, and expresses herself as eleven Rudras, eight Vasus, twelve Adityas and all the devas who are sustained by her and she is the source, substratum and support of the whole world.

Lakshmi is also in Rg Veda.

Durga Suktam comes from Mahanarayana Upanishad, ca. 300 B. C. E.


That makes a small historical evidence linking Devi Suktam, Atharva Veda, and Durga Suktam, prior to the major outburst of literature. What is going on here?


In the Veda, the spontaneous ability is possession by Agni, and, in most of the tribal shaktism portrayed with magic animals, there is also possession by Bhuts.

This is part of tantra that arises perhaps in the 600s.

In that case, it has a double meaning, man and woman, or mental and auric halves of one's experience.

In most cases, "woman is a naturally stronger shakti", whereas we have heard an effect of the Agni-inspired Vedic hymns is to protect the easily-damaged male DNA.


Soma exists in all nature, so, i. e. the non-Arya shakti is part of nature.

The "tribes", currently to this day, still suffer oppression at the hands of Hindutva. It must only be a "certain kind" of Hindu that is friendly to them.

Whether from the perspective of Aryas or Buddhists, the tribes are, of course, targets for "conversion"--but, in this case, it is not really because the Bhuts or animal totems are false. We might say they are "incomplete". And so this is more of a "mingling". A Buddhist may have read a Sutra and been inspired by moral guidance, and not have any experience with natural, inner powers that are equally real for non-Buddhists. So this is certainly not about "labels" or prior experience, and is more about the intersection of rural and urban lifestyles.



If we comb history for the story of these devis, it is in Buddhism as soon as it is in anything written. Keeping in mind the older images from IVC, we find something different on the Ganga some 60km from Kashi:

The Vindhyavasini Devi is depicted as seated on the Lion. She represents Goddess Lakshmi out of trinity of Hindu Goddesses.

She is considered Family Goddess (Kul Devi), Protecting Goddess (Rakshak Devi) as well as Regional Goddess (Kshetra Devi) of two states of India; Bihar as well as Eastern Uttar Pradesh.

There are such ancient devi stone murtis that their features are nearly unidentifiable and you are not allowed to photograph them. She is also called Kajala, and has a temple in Pokhara, Nepal.



So, that amounts to "local legend"; comparatively, here is a strand of historical mentions:



Besides, one of the earliest references appears in the line six of
Rock Edict XIII of Asok which alludes to the
mother-worship by the Atavikas who lived in the
forest regions of Kalinga.

The first evidence of Buddhism in Kinnaur is a ca. year 100 penalty for bikkhus having sex with Kinnari women.

The two armed deity Viraja represents
the earliest form of Sakti in Odisha.

The earliest epigraphic reference to the
tribal goddess in Odisha appears in the Bhadrak
inscription of Maharaja Surasarma, dated on
Palaeological ground to the 3rd century A.D.,
where the goddess Parnnadevati (goddess of
leaves or forest) received donations of garments,
gold and a pedestal from a lady named Ranghali.


Sitayana mainly has Odiya origins.


The above "allusion" is very indirect; Asoka simply called forest-dwellers Atavi. There is also Vindhyatavi, which would be geographically separate from Kalingatavi.

He mostly talks about Dharma, which is Greek Eusebia, or Aramaic:


Qsyt



There are some Ashokan Elephants and Bulls, however the major animal of the time is now Lion.

He makes the first use of "stupa" and the record of Kanakamuni Buddha at Nigalihawa, Nepal. At Bairat, Rajasthan, there is a list of Buddhist discourses that do not quite match the canon--which was Pali, and assembled after this.

A relief of Bharhut stupa railing portrays a queenly personage on horseback carrying a Garudadhvaja.


There is only one copy of Minor Edict VII:

The Delhi-Topra Pillar was moved from Topra Kalan in Yamunanagar district of Haryana (original location at 30.12889°N 77.15965°E)...


noting the problem that:

The kings who were in times past, had this desire, that men might (be made to) progress by the promotion of morality; but men were not made to progress by an adequate promotion of morality.

He doesn't argue between Brahmins, Buddhists, or others, but says the Greeks do not have "sects". Missionaries he sent towards Greece may have a role in the appearance of "Gnosticism".

One pillar was added to centuries later by Samudragupta, who is all about conquest, and the singular Brahman Dharma. Ashoka's story is the personal discovery in Kalinga that, the more Rimush-like the conquest, the worse of a thing it is. Nominally, Ashoka's territory should mark the extent of how big "the empire" must be, since he is taking Dharma on for himself and his reign.

Even though the phrase "Dharma Stambha" is used for these "Pillars of Morality", there is no evident connection to Stambhesvari, and he says the tribes need to be converted. To what? His concern seems to be Dharma and an appropriate rite--neither the Greek lack of rite, or the overly-done Indian superstitious rite. His response to Buddhism is they should eject anyone who causes "dissension".


Manuscripts may have been made at the time; none have survived.

Many texts are believed to have been created, and copied over and over such that there are not that many intact versions more than about five hundred years old.



Some of the oldest paper in Asia is invocations in the Gilgit Manuscripts:


Pratisara with Ekajata and Lankesvari



This would be problematic for the unimaginative, because it means that goddesses from distant southeastern India are in use at Gandhar. This collection is said to begin ca. 400.


In Makran, Hingula Mata is the Pitha of Sati's Tika Mark, which makes it the first in any such system. Around 500, fire is brought from there to start the Jagannath Mahaprasad.


Instead of the dissected Sati, we are going to look at the Pithas of Mahalakshmi which means places where she has appeared or where she has taken birth. While Viraja of Jaipur is probably the oldest recognizable dhyana, this is probably Shambala:




Goddess Samlei of Sambalpur and goddess Subhadra of Sri Jagannath temple at Puri are worshipped in the same Bhuvanesvari mantra by the priests. There might be some similarities between both the goddesses. Lankesvari is called Vindhyavasini Durga also.

Alternyms:


Vaital (Lankesvari)

Lankeswari or Nikumbhilaa

Nikumbhilā (निकुम्भिला).—

1) A cave or grove at the western gate of Laṅkā.

2) An image of Bhadrakālī on the west side of Laṅkā.



Also in the early 400s:


Mahamayuri's dharani, translated into Chinese by Kumārajīva, is considered to predate Mahayana Buddhism. It contains the only mention of the Rig Veda in the entire Chinese Buddhist canon.

Kumarajiva Mahamayuri says Bhima or Bhishana has the consort Shivabhadra. This is with respect to a Bhimakali temple in the Sutlej valley of Kinnaur, Himachal Pradesh. Chinese pilgrims attest the cult of Bhima in Gandahar, and at the Brahmagiri mountain in Kosala where Nagarjuna stayed.

Bhima Devi appears to have been carved in turquoise when found by the Chinese in the 600s.



In other words the first specific writing is about Bhima in HP, whereas an even older external writing about HP Buddhism is close to the same thing. The Chinese say she is also known in the south.





Similar to a Vedic Apri Hymn, there are in Golden Light Sutra:


Sarasvati, Sri, and Drdha


Sarasvati of Chapter Eight bestows Eloquence which is not unusual, and then grants dharani which is very specific. She gives it so you will increase wisdom through the Sutra. In her dharani, she is Marici, Marici Prana, and Keyura. Both here and in her own Prophecy, Sri attained realization in a prior cosmos with what will eventually and now be called Jewel or Ratna Family, and so she functions mainly as an amplifier of this now.

In here is also another rare example of Kunti as a yakshi.


Sri and Drdha are obvious alternyms of Ila and Bhu; and so yes, the Sutras say Lakshmi is a Buddha.

Moreover, the Sutra blends Lakshmi's Gold with the transformation of a lay person's house into a Palace of Lapis Lazuli.

Buddha descended from Heaven on a ladder of Lapis Lazuli; this one, nearly indistinguishable from the Assamese Ladder to Heaven.

When we compare Buddhism to the ancient myths based on the same stone, those are the most general correspondences. Also, Medicine Buddha is Lapis (or of the color or light).

Golden Light Sutra is quite similar to Ashoka's Edicts.

Then we are told Gandhari had 100 Kaurava children at Hastinapura.

Mahabharata is not Buddhist, but, there is extensive use of Dhrtarashtra and Gandhari in Buddhist mantras.


RGV is in a certain sense, a redux on Bhagavad Gita.


The closest thing I have found to eschatology is that before Vyasa, there were Sages, and now there aren't.


Most tribes are considered "Hindu-ized" because they have taken Shiva and Durga as a blend into their native beliefs. This is not always the case. But these "Hindu tribes" do not have Brahmans. They are not the same kind of Gotra or Sage lineages. It seems unlikely they are very involved with any Vedas, which they were not a part of. Nevertheless, one cannot say there was no influence from south India, it being more of the nature of agriculture and trade. After Rg Veda, then there is the acquisition of iron from "tribes".

Tapa or Panchajanya is a Five-colored flame made by sages in Mahabharata.

So we are looking at a merge of Agni and Shakti.

That is almost literally what Durga Suktam says.

Well, we have just agreed that it had become a Sageless Kaliyug or Dark Age. However there must be some kind of unperishable divinity, and I think the real story of Adi Shakti manifests this. And this is simply contained in the popular song Mahalakshmi Namostute which comes from Kolhapur.


From the Puranic commentaries, the source for saying "these Candis or Durgas are impelled by Mahalakshmi" is their self-identity in the Candi Path of regular Durga worship:

The Prādhānika Rahasya (प्राधानिक रहस्य, “The Secret Relating to Primary Matter,” or “The Preeminent Secret”) takes as its point of departure the Brahmāstuti’s phrase “differentiating into the threefold qualities of everything”. In considering how the singular ultimate reality assumes the multiple forms of the phenomenal universe, the Prādhānika Rahasya first describes the differentiation of the guṇas as taking place within the Devī herself and remaining at the unmanifest (avyākṛta) stage.

You have told me about the different incarnations of Chandika,
Oh great among Brahmins , it is only proper that you tell me,
About the basic nature of the Goddess who is behind these.

At that point it is revealed that Mahalakshmi is "behind" the manifestations and activities of Adi Sakti, the Candis or Camundas or Durgas, Mothers' Circles, etc. She has done some dark, formless evolution of a trinity, and remains in situ as the source of emanated powers or saktis.

Candi Path or Devi Mahatmya says Mahalakshmi is Parameswari, and has both Mahamaya and Mahavidya as companions.

It is about prime material, or primal matter, Prakrti or Akash.

"Caṇḍikā is "the Goddess of Truth and Justice who came to Earth for the establishment of Dharma ," from the adjective caṇḍa, "fierce, violent, cruel for evil forces not for good forces ." The epithet has no precedent in Vedic literature and is first found in a late insertion to the Mahabharata, where Chaṇḍa and Chaṇḍī appear as epithets.

Candi Path is estimated ca. year 400-600 as part of Markendya Purana.



It is the same as Devi Mahatmya, ca. 400-600; during Vaivasvata Manvantara, Devi's first incarnation is as Vindhya Vasini; relatively soon, she becomes Shakambari or vegetables, and then she lives on Himavat as Bhima, before her last example, she becomes a swarm of bees (Brahmari).


In Devi Bhagavata Purana, although Bhima is later repeated as a place with a yogini, she comes from a rather exalted position within a response to the Himalayas about the sacred places of Devi, which begins with Kolhapur Mahalakshmi:

There is a great place of pilgrimage named Kolhāpura in the southern country. Here the Devī Lakṣmi always dwells. The second place is Mātripura in the Sahyādrī mountain; here the Devī Reṇukā dwells. The third place is Tulajāpur; next is the place Saptaśriṅga, the great places of Hingulā and Jvālā Mukhī. Then the great places of Sākambharī, Bhrāmāri, Śrīraktadantikā and Dūrgā. The best of all places is that of Vindhyācala Vāsinī, the great places of Annapurnā and the excellent Kāñcipur (Conjiverum). Next come the places of Bhīmā Devī, Vimalā Devī, Śrī Caṇdralā Devī of Karṇāṭ, and the place of Kauśikī. Then the great place of Nīlāmbā on the top of the Nīlāparvata, the place of Jāmbūnadeśvarī, and the beautiful Śrīnagara.

11-20. The great place of Śrī Guhya Kālī, well established in Nepal, and that of Śrī Mīnākṣī Devī established in Cīdamvaram. The great place named Vedāraṇya where the Sundarī Devī is residing...

She is not in Mahabharata, female Bhima is a wrathful emanation of Mahalakshmi.

She also went to Hingula.

In Beri, Haryana, Bhima is said to be Kuldevi of Gandhari and male Bhima.

HP is also an Ear Pitha, or specifically left ear, part of a ring of eight matrikas which defeated Banasura.

Several of these instances pertain to a given fight.

What with, depends, for example Madhu and Kaitab have an interpretation as Name and Form.


The 2020 excavation of Bhima Devi at Pinjore, Haryana, is described with the first, ca. 300 Kushan Five Deity Mandala at Nand, Ajmer, Rajasthan. That is because the Pinjore temple's floorplan suggests Sri Yantra. It also has the mysterious Vinayaki (also suggested as Ganapati Hrdaya). This site is probably no older than eighth century, but considered an example of raw shaktism elaborated in tantric detail.


One pattern we notice is the primordial Devi usually has a one-pointed force, a Spear, not a Trident, Trisula. This is almost immediately forgotten in most iconography.

At Kottai:

There is a Sri Chakram in front of Ambai Idol.

Mother Raja Durgambika appears so realistically killing demon Mahishasura. This is the only temple in Tamilnadu where Ambica Sulini appears pressing the demon of a buffalo head and human body, holding his horn by the left hand and Her right leg on his neck.She is in the sanctum sanctorum facing east

Dharmar the eldest of the Pandavas worshipped Durga, the deity of Rahu planet and regained his kingdom. She is holding three kinds of tridents called Rathnathrayam – cause, origin of the cause and effect. Mother Sulini is dressed with complete sandal paste on the 3rd Tuesday of Aadi month (July- August) for a day only.

Although she is rare:


Shoolini Durga, the Lion, is found behind Durga. It has a subtle meaning.





Sulini is in Markendaya Purana in the section with Mahamaya and the Awakening of Vishnu. Right before Madhu and Kaitab.





So, as far as we know, this closely follows what may be her original form.

Viraja is a Sulini.

By name, Sulini is the Kinnaur goddess at Sarahan, Sonepur or Sonitpur or Solan.

Mahashakti and Kuldevi of Solan.

This is in the root of contention between those who see Vishnu Narasimha or Shiva Sarabesh as the most important or powerful deity. Different Puranic versions show favoritism, which of course is an actual trend of competition between rival kingdoms. In Karnataka, it takes on the Bactrian Double Headed Eagle. Most of this seems nationalistic and sectarian, vying for importance, and we cannot array anything until we see what it symbolizes in the inner sense.




In south India also called:

Atharvana-Rudra-Kali



She is mentioned in Maitreya's Mahamayuri:

harini harini / danti sabari sive sulapanini /


And Guhyasamaja Tantra only shows Ekajati--Sulini as Hooking a Naga Kanya, followed by Bhrkuti who gives the state of Gagana; or, it is really Bhagavan's Gagana Samadhi that produces Maha Dharma Samaya Vajrabhrkuti. This one is Trasani or "causes fear" or:

2) [noun] an abnormal and overwhelming sense of apprehension and fear often marked by physiological signs (as sweating, tension, and increased pulse), by doubt concerning the reality and nature of the threat, and by self-doubt about one’s capacity to cope with; anxiety.


Here is a post on Sulini in GST 14 with Adi Shankara's Mangalaroopini:


Mangala roopini madhiyani soolini manmadha paaniyale,
Sangadam neengida saduthiyil vandhidum shankari soundariye,


which also goes into Sulini and Pratyangira as the wings of Sarabesh.

Bhima is also a name or attribute of Kamala.

Also of Hidimba of Kullu Valley.

Bhima, Bhadrakali, and Candi in a Cinnamasta song.

In Buddhism, if Bhima was the subject, that would give us Buddhakapala Tantra with her as a retinue member:


Green Bhima in the west of the first ring, and Bhimadarsana in the East of the third ring.


The closest example of her possibly direct use is within the dharani of Vajragandhari.



The internal sacred sites of Dakarnava are such that:


Prasanna is in a multi-story building mounted on a Skeleton.

It turns out that the standard accoutrement in these Pithas is some form of spear, for example, with Bhima, also called Kamini (or female Mahabala), of Mayapura. Bhima is her source and spouse. None of these are big multi-armed forms. They are biased towards Bhima and Sulini in form.

Holding a Noose is Gajakarna, Mahabhima, or Kharastha of Elapura; her source is Pracanda.

Shakti is a type of Spear, Sula, while being the same expression for goddess.

So the Dakarnava visualization is built on spear-holding shaktis, with heaps of etymological twists. Maya Pura or "city of maya" is the body, similar to "Ayodhya" of the Vedas. However, Dakarnava is the cumulative version of inner work along the same commentarial lines since ca. 800; this would be the main, continuous use of it in Buddhism. The Kalachakra Tantra thoroughly re-invents the wheel in this case; it cannot be used in the same progressive manner. This aspect of tantra begins with small retinues and significant aspects, building to Dakarnava which has something like 1,100 deities, each with multiple dharmic meanings. Not the beginner level. The "Chakrasamvara corpus" is this development, compared to which, Hevajra Tantra is a possible shortcut, able to be used by those with profound abilities, but less appropriate for disciples. Chakrasamvara most likely developed in Maharastra and Vidarbha; the Dakarnava contains the first known use of "Mumbai".




Back through some Pithas:

Kolhapura on the banks of River ‘Panchaganga’ (in Maharashtra) is Maha Lakshmi’s famous Temple situated. The Deity is also known as ‘Karaveera Nivasini Ambabai’ and the City is known as Dakshina Kasi and a Shakti Peetha too. Matripura in Sahyadri mountains or Western Ghats ( Mahur or Mahugadh in Maharashtra) is a Shakti Peetha, the seat of Renuka Devi and also the birth place of Dattatreya. Tuljapura is the abode of Tulja Bhavani (again in Maharashtra and a Shakti Peetha) and next to it Saptashringa with the Temples of Hingula and Jwalamukhi.

Bhima Devi (Vaishno Devi)


So this Hingula is almost certainly the first eastward motion of the original, probably along with the wave of IVC. Interfacing with the east, Bhima in Adbhuta Ramayana:

You are Virupa (i.e., you have unconventional, distorted, terrifying
and ugly features— see also verse nos. 54, 66 and 76) on the one
hand, and on the other you are Surupa (i.e., one who is pleasant,
charming and endearing to look at— see verse no. 39 also). You
are Bhima (the divine consort of both Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu,
i.e., Goddess Parvati and Laxmi respectively).


R. Balkaran certainly thinks there is a continuous flow from Durga Suktam to Devi Mahatmya. Her form is from the tejas of multiple devas (Vedic and Puranic).


For the namesake line in Durga Suktam, we are referred to Ratri Suktam which is RV X.127. No Kali or Durga is in it.


Similarly titled:


Ratri Sukta is also the 5th chapter in Purva Bhaga of Devi Mahatmyam, and is also known as Vanadurga Suktam.

Part 2 is usually not published, so we can't make a comparison. Obviously the song is not the same as in Rg Veda. We don't know how anyone could have thought of Durga in the real Mahabharata times, not by that name.



Devi Mahatmya is:


Yoga Shastra and Sri Vidya

The Devi Mahatmya or Durga Saptashati is treated like a Vedic hymn, rik or a mantra.


In its own self-accolades:


ṛgvedaḥ svarūpam ।


which may stem from Dattatreya giving:

– Srividya to Parashurama
– Dattavidya to Brahma
– Adhyatma Vidya to Prahlada
– Yoga Vidya to Vasishta and
– Atma Vidya to Kartaviryarjuna.



The cited DM commentary expounds Adi Shakti:

According to Bhaskararaya, Chaṇḍikā-Mahālakṣhmī, the Absolute principle, verily, is devoid of form (nirakara); not ordinarily perceptible (alakshya); and , without attributes (nirguna) ; yet, she is characterized by the three Gunas (triguna); and , she pervades through her three representations (avatars).

Bhāskararāya explains: the Absolute, Mahālakṣhmī, can take the nature of Chaṇḍikā. And, the Chaṇḍikā – Mahālakṣhmī, the primordial energy, the Turiya (the highest or the fourth), assumes those three distinct forms. And, each is identified with a Guna (tendency): Mahālakṣhmī (rajas), Mahākālī (tamas) and Mahāsarasvatī (sattva).

According to Bhāskararāya, at one level, Mahālakṣhmī is the highest Brahman. On the second level, Mahālakṣhmī is the deity Chaṇḍikā manifesting the Guṇas. Then, on the third level, there is a Mahālakṣhmī as one of the three aggregate forms (i.e. one of the Guṇas).

As Sat, Mahālakṣhmī is the power of coordination (sandhini). She is Vama, the left aspect, who is the power of action (kriya) that is causation. She is Lakshmi goddess of plenty, and fortune.

As Chit Mahālakṣhmī is the power of understanding (samvit). She is the power of will (iccha), and of the flow knowledge. She is Sarasvathi, the goddess of learning.

As Ananda, Mahālakṣhmī is the power of delight (ahladini-shakthi). She is the fierce (Raudri). She is the power of cognition, of realization, of transcendent knowledge; and the destroyer of illusions. She is also Durga, the one beyond reach.

The Creation arises from Her triple form of Shakthi; the trinity Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra took shape to create, preserve and dissolve the universe.

We also have a Sutra of Mahamaya Vijayavahini, given to Narayan, as if he did not know what Lakshmi is capable of. She is a War Chariot goddess, suggestibly similar to the major forms in DM and elsewhere.

Adbhuta Ramayana is really Kirat Sitayana with Lakshmi (Sita), Mahakali, and Bhadrakali. It is a late text, 1200s or so. This is because "no one had asked the question". That is practically the same reason we don't show a Dakarnava specifically dictated by Buddha during his lifetime: no one to understand it.

In other words, older practitioners were not that advanced, at least in terms of explanatory power. They may have achieved Agni or Shakti, or a high Bodhisattva stage, and found extreme difficulty trying to express themselves. That is why I would say this whole history of literature is important towards the very elaborate systems of Dakarnava or anything similar. The language had to be developed to conform to the need.



The Met has a 1600s Basohli, Punjab Bhadrakali with Bhima and Vahni Priya (Svaha); detail:








Nirguna Mahalakshmi Devi Mahamaya:








Bhima is most likely influential to Gandhari, who we would like to be able to say was a natural person, human being. She may have manifested Gandharva Shakti. She wore a blindfold. That means she has one of the strongest moral fibers in Mahabharata, although her fate is miserable. For some reason, she is retained in Buddhism in a rather special, but obscure, manner.


On p. 166, Taranatha attributes Asanga's use of Gandhari mantra to enter Tusita and to "move through space".


Gandhari has three appearances in Buddhism: on her own, with Eight Arm Kurukulla, and with Parnasabari. Kurukulla's North Gatekeeper is:


Fat Dark Gold Four Arm Sword Gandhari


Unfortunately, she starts in Sadhanamala where a page is missing. But we can find her exhumed by G. Buhnemann, Buddhist Deities and Mantras in the Hindu Tantras:


The vajragāndhārī-mantra for protection from Piśācas, evil demons (graha) and fever (MP 43.72+)


oṃ raṣṭidehiṃ coktajikādha oṃkārīṃ kātyāyanīṃ nairṛtyāṃ kālīṃ mahākālīṃ vajrakālīṃ yaśasvinīṃ sukālīm āgneyāṃ vāyavyāṃ kālikāṃ paṅktiśaktiṃ śāntākṣīm indrāṇīṃ yakṣakauberīṃ māheśvarīṃ vaiṣṇavīṃ cāmuṇḍīṃ raudrīṃ vārāhīṃ kauberīṃ yāś cānyā mama samaye tiṣṭhanti tannāmāvartayiṣyāmi / śīghraṃ gṛhṇa / oṃ lala culu pūraya dhara ānaya subhage / āviśa bhagavati / mahāvajragāndhāri siddhacandravajrapāṇir ājñāpayati hrīṃ haḥ hāṃ hāṃ hāṃ huṃ phaṭ svāhā /


SM 205:


namo ratnatrayāya / namaś caṇḍavajrapāṇaye mahāyakṣasenāpataye / namo bhagavati mahāvajragāndhāri anekaśatasahasraprajvalitadīptatejāyai ugrabhīmabhayānakāyai yoginīyai bhīṣmabhaginīyai dvādaśabhujāyai vikīrṇakeśīyai anekarūpavividhaveśadhāriṇīyai / ehy ehi bhagavati mahāvajragāndhāri trayāṇāṃ ratnānāṃ satyena ākaṭa ākaṭa baladevādikaṃ ye cānye samaye na tiṣṭhanti tān āvarttayiṣyāmi / śīghraṃ gṛhṇa gṛhṇa gṛhṇa oṃ ala ala ala ala hulu hulu mulu mulu culu culu dhama dhama rakṣa rakṣa rakṣāpaya rakṣāpaya pūraya pūraya āviśa āviśa bhagavati mahāvajragāndhāri siddhacaṇḍavajrapāṇir ājñāpayati hrīḥ haḥ huṃ phaṭ svāhā /



Mahalakshmi as Raktadantika with Pomegranates:






So, if we leave off for now, not sure whether the supernova was 2,000 or 5,000 B. C. E., we could presume it would have called attention to its constellation. In near opposition to Vega and the Galactic Center Sagittarius A*, for Capella or Alpha Aurigae:

In Akkadian times, Capella may have been Dil-gan I-ku, meaning “the messenger of light,” or Dil-gan Babili, the patron star of Babylon. In Sumerian, it was called mul.ÁŠ.KAR, meaning “the goat star,” and in Assyria it was known as I-ku, “the leader,” meaning the leader of the year. The start of the year is believed to have been determined by Capella’s position relative to the Moon at the vernal equinox before 1730 BCE, when the Sun entering the constellation Taurus marked the beginning of spring.

In Bedouin astronomy, Auriga stars represented a herd of goats. The Bedouin in Sinai and Negev called Capella al-‘Ayyūq ath-Thurayyā, “Capella of the Pleiades.”

In Hindu astronomy, Capella was called Brahma Hṛdaya, “the heart of Brahma.”

Baltic people called Capella Tikutis or Perkūno Ožka, meaning “thunder’s goat.”

At first, it could not possibly have been a chariot--it would be more like the Meluhha merchant carrying a Goat in the Akkadian seal. It would have watched the equinox slip into Aries. The symbolic explanation is the Goat is the Speech Principle or Vak. This is considered "the root of evil", not love for money, which had not been invented. Correspondingly, to "sacrifice the goat" would have to do with purifying speech. That is why it would also make sense meeting an Akkadian translator.

[shaberon]

Auriga



Here we will take a few different sources and different qualities of review.


The first is an un-annotated salad of Vedas, Epics, and Puranas. The kind of thing that is more or less disallowed today. We think it is important to cite sources, and distinguish and explain your own speculation. Steve Farmer does this, so, we can see he has reliable information, and personal ideas that are about 1/8 meritable. Right now we want to talk about stars and most particularly Auriga. Here it is in a few notes on Mythology taken from:


Mukherji, Kalinath, Popular Hindu Astronomy. Published by Nirmal Mukherjea,
Calcutta. 1905, reprinted 1969.


Saiph (in the constellation Orion) is a peacock who carries the stellar prince, Skanda.

Leya (Leo)

A lioness who pursues a fox.


Soma and Vishnu (Castor and Pollux)

Soma and Vishnu are similar to Adam and Eve. A heavenly couple, one holds a club
and the other a lyre.


Taurus

This constellation is represented by a two-wheeled cart with a triangular shape or the
celestial bull.

Krittika (The Pleiades)

This constellation represents either a flame or a cutting instrument shaped like a meat
cleaver or a razor.


Rahu (Hydra)

The “hidden one” or the water snake. The great snake was able to remain hidden
in the water, and could influence the brightening and darkening activities of the sun,
as seen in the arrival of summer and winter, and during eclipses. During the darker
months of winter, the sun was thought to take a five month ride on the back of the
water snake.


Parsu-Rama (Perseus)

A great warrior, born with a battle-axe in his hands. He is said to have exterminated
the entire warrior class twenty-one times. This makes him the most famous of all men
in India.

Brahma Rasi or Pushan (Auriga)

The best of the charioteers. He drives his chariot (which holds the sun and is pulled
by goats) across the heavens around Polaris. Capella or Brahma Hridaya is the main
star in Auriga, the constellation of the goat-headed fire god.


Garuda (Aquila)

Garuda stole nectar to use as ransom in order to free his mother from slavery. After
stealing the nectar, he was pierced by an arrow fired by the keeper of the nectar.

Sati (Spica)

This star, found in the constellation Virgo, is a bright star in the spring sky. This electric blue star, Sati, represents the Virgin Mother.



Allright. It gives us some tips, but, we have no clue why Perseus "is" Parasurama. Maybe less for "goat-headed fire god". It is possible Pusan is meant for that. However the vision of the stars as a chariot is probably non-Indic. So we are panning to see how either of those is valid. The star Capella is, but, the constellation, maybe not.

Here is a much better astronomical report on the Korku, which will show us perhaps the oldest possible Auriga discussed with particular people none of whom were younger than fifty-five in a quite specific place.


Village 11: Hatida

District: Amaravati, Maharastra
Population: 300



2) They know of the plough in Orion.
3) They know the Pleiades as the minced
meat of a cow.
4) They know Auriga as a bird’s nest, with
Capella as the bird and the southern
stars as eggs.

10) Their month goes from full moon to full
moon.


Okay. This is going to tell us two things. An evolution about the particular constellation, and, that they partly, but not completely, recognize the Zodiac:

Until agriculture was introduced, the forest and
the plains offered the Korku totally different ecological regimes,
but this is not clearly reflected in
the range of astronomical beliefs listed in Table
1. While some beliefs, such as eggs seen in
Orion or the bird’s nest seen in Auriga were only
reported by forest villagers, and are easily
associated with a forest environment, minced
cow meat and cowherds—also reported only in
forest villages—are not. These relate more to a
pastoral existence, which was only introduced to
the Korku with agriculture.

...the Korku have an interesting
visualisation of the Orion-Taurus-Auriga-Gemini
region. They identify Auriga as a well, which is
unusual, as is their identification of Castor and
Pollux as two women taking water from the well.
Yet these elements surely reflect the importance
of water for successful agricultural production.
The identification of mashed cow meat in the
Pleiades by the Korku also is interesting.

Here, no one is guessing that a pictogram is a star chart. These are interviews where someone explains what they think, and, we see a likely original version that is near the point of being utterly forgotten. The change means that what we call Gemini is:


two
water-bearer ladies (da Hinda)



and their word on Auriga is:


when it is seen in the west at
sunset the monsoon will arrive.


and this is what the asterism is made of:


Kunva (well) Constellation Auriga -
Reike (water bearer) Castor ( Gem)
Chaike (water bearer) Pollux ( Gem)



We have already found in the Rock Art that what looks like "water carrier" in most of these scripts, at least sometimes, was foraging Honey. But we can be pretty sure this is about water and rain here.

It is actually "sky art". The majority of villages describe almost the same thing with these components and stars.


Farming scene

Harnangar (plough) Alnitak ( Ori), Alnilam ( Ori) and Mintaka ( Ori) 1.85, 1.65, 2.40
Doba 1 (bullock) Rigel ( Ori) 0.15
Doba 2 (bullock) Saiph ( Ori) 2.05



Nangarnara manus (the person ploughing
the field)

Betelgeuse ( Ori) 0.45


Arrangement for separating seeds from whey

Circular ground for thrashing rice husk
(Khiryan) beater using cow (Khiryan)

Aldebaran ( Tau), Ain ( Tau), Hyadum II ( 1 Tau),
Hyadum I ( Tau)
0.85, 3.50, 3.75, 3.65


Michan (rope to control the bulls) Tabit ( 3 Ori) and stars around it 3.15

Miryan (Central pole) 2 Tau


Pati (husband) 1 Tau (just north of Aldebaran) 420, 4.25
Patni (wife) Tau 4.25
Mulga (son) 72 Tau

Gai Jijulu, Kuthali Ku, Gaikasai (all implying
minced meat of the cow)

Pleiades -
Bhotmongari (tool to beat husk to remove
husk)

Pleiades -
Gugul gothu Pleiades



That is almost all they talked about, except for Centaurus, Polaris, Ursa Major.

Those are not "sisters", the "krttika" or "cutters" have shredded a cow.

(Bengalis call these seven birds as seven sisters).

Varunan with seven sisters is found in Rik Veda 8-41.



Here is another branch of partial speculation from New Interpretations of IVC, such as the towns being necropolises and the seals, funerary markers, based from finding the skeletons strewn randomly:



The new theory proposed in
this book is that the symbols represent the ―star constellations, and in turn the star
constellations represent days of the moon calendar month.


The ideas about stars in relation to relatively well-known IVC seals include:


Aries = Goat, Honey bee and Honeycomb for the Aswins

Krittika = Razor/
Cutter/ scissors/
Flame/Knife/
spear, symbol similar to "Crab"



The common, U, or Tree symbol is assigned to:

Funeral urn/ symbol of god
of death/ symbol of Kalan/
Shiva

This symbol indicates the head of Kalan, which is a
head of a bull and not human head. Now the contradiction is that there are two
explanations for one symbol. This has to be reconciled. In ancient mythology or
astrology all the events happening in earth are influenced by the similar events in
heaven. For every allegorical expression, there were two events; one in heaven and
one in earth. It looks like that the symbol meant head of Kalan in heaven and
meant ―Death‖ in earth (or) burial of a dead body after putting into a Pithoi.

Unicorn Figure 7: Auriga-Aldebaran constellations combined


It is said to be a profile of a bull, since the people used a bull horn as a "pointer", it is an artistic statement to draw it that way. Auriga is the body, Taurus the head. Author thinks the seals witness a change:



Aldebaran/Alpha Tauri, Auriga
constellation is
part of bull
constellation in
earlier period ,
later it became the
sacred tree- Ficus
religiosa



For the Lunar Mansion:


Mrigashira/
Agrahayani/

Name of the
demon(or) vritra
in the form of
deer slain by
Indra/


All twenty-eight are listed, but the work is not complete enough to have an IVC description for each. This is some ideas being thrown at it. Some of them may be possible. Auriga is a Tree? Not sure I have heard that yet. Here are some other suggestions.


Contest Heroine

Hemtun mentions about naked goddess and her role with rain.
This Indus seal illustrated here shows a similar goddess who is
naked and standing on elephant, crowned by a wheel. Heliacal
rising of Auriga constellation might have indicated the beginning of
rainy season in those days. Because of that reason Inanna (mother
goddess) is always associated with rain.

There are two things in common between Inanna and Indra; one
is the vahan (vehicle) of these gods (elephant) and the other one is their
identification mark (wheel).

Per Harappan site:

The Mesopotamian epics show lions being strangled by a hero, whereas the Indus narratives render tigers being strangled by a figure, sometimes clearly males, sometimes ambiguous or possibly female. The figure strangling the two tigers may represent a female, as a pronounced breast can be seen in profile.


On the reverse (89), an individual is spearing a water buffalo with one foot pressing the head down and one arm holding the tip of a horn. A gharial [crocodile] is depicted above the sacrifice scene and a figure seated in yogic position, wearing a horned headdress, looks on. The horned headdress has a branch with three prongs or leaves emerging from the center.





That appears to be a Mahishmardini, or Viraja or Sulini.

Similar:







Procession Seal

The face of goat is like a human
being...

Asherah Pole

This pole is identified
with the goddess Inanna and thereby the Auriga
constellation. The square with the wheel in the
right side lower corner is the symbol of sun
calendar (as per Benght Hemtun).


The constellation Auriga seems to be an important one and is shown as the
tree of heaven. Most likely the religious idea is that Inanna lives within that tree.
Most probably this constellation was visible at the time of heliacal rising of rainy
season at some point of time; it may not be relevant now. That tree is symbolically
planted during the marriage ceremony of the agricultural communities even now in
India. This shows the importance given to this constellation because it signalled the
arrival of monsoon season and starting of agricultural season which is very
important in the life of any agricultural community.

Comparatively:

Later
Zodiacs were modified to keep the hero figure in the centre fighting the animal,
two lions or two bulls, which is a common motif in Middle Eastern seals. Many of
the Middle Eastern seals show worship of the naked goddess. Hemtun concludes
that this naked goddess (Inanna) is representing asterism Auriga, because in one
seal, she stands on the ‗oxen‘ in ‗Indian style‘. Note the similarity between this
Sumerian seal and the Indus seal depicting ―deity of tree‖ in the ―goat seal‖. This
seal illustrated here is from Syria (circa 1800 BC) and the naked goddess was the
symbol of rain and fertility in Levant.

For Centaurs:

In Sumer and Egypt, these symbols designate five seasons of
a year. The Gemini constellation identify the first season (spring season), which is
shown as front toes of the horse. Constellations Cancer, Lynx and Ursa Major put
together makes the archer, and this archer indicates the second season of
Sumerians. The other seasons are marked by other constellations like Scorpio and
rear portion of the horse. The constellation Scorpio is explicitly shown in the first
seal and still is the popularly used zodiac symbol.

In Indus symbolism there is a
change because the spring starts with Bull constellation (Auriga constellation) for
Indus people. This Auriga constellation is shown as human portion of the female
centaur like creature. The hind portion of this centaur is shown like a tiger not a
horse.

In this case of Indus symbol, it
covers only four-month period, symbols for Markhor goat (Aries constellation) to Virgo constellation.

Centaur War Goddess, or four month season?

Here is another with a better Three Branch Crown.


The Syrian seal being referred to is similar to one we can link, 1800-1650 B. C. E. at The Walters:

This seal depicts the Syrian "smiting" god and a nude female goddess, probably Ishtar, standing on the back of a bull. In this period, nude goddesses were generally associated with Astarte, Anath, and other West Semitic and Canaanite deities. Next to the smiting god is a Babylonian goddess wearing an Egyptian-style Atef crown. A third crowned figure stands on the opposite side of Ishtar. In an auxiliary scene, two smaller figures stand above a twisted knot and a bird. The elaborate borders and the detailed figures are typical of Syrian seals of this period. An Egyptian ankh and a Mesopotamian sun disk in a crescent illustrate further connections between Syria and its neighbors.

The specific one you will have to see at the British Museum:

The Syrian goddess stands facing right, wearing a square-topped, horned headdress and a robe with rolled borders, and holding a cup below a disc set in a crescent; before her a small monkey raises one paw in worship. The Syrian goddess faces a naked goddess, with frontal torso, and head and legs turned towards the left, and whose arms hang by her side. Behind her stands a veiled woman with her hand raised in worship; between the two figures is an ankh. A stylised tree terminates the scene. Faint line borders top and bottom.

Curator's comments

The veiled woman is a feature at all periods. Otto (2000, p. 214: 14.1.1.10) lists examples on Classic Syrian seals, not all of them clear, but on none of these seals is the veil pulled forward as on the present seal. However, she is shown in this manner before a king on a Classic Syrian seal in the Seyrig Collection (Collon 1987/2005, no. 649) and on a seal once in the Erlenmeyer Collection (Collon 1987/2005, no. 453, on the top and bottom registers); see also Matthiae 2011, pp.168-9 and 170) who describes her as a priestess and gives a list of parallels in his note 23.

She's standing on a Zebu.


As to The Syrian Goddess also at Bogazkoy and Ugarit:

The central Hittite cult is that of this mated pair, the Bull-god Zeus and the Lion nature-goddess. The central cult-images of Hierapolis, as described by Lucian, are exactly similar. There are the mated pair of deities: the god is indistinguishable from Zeus, and he is seated on bulls; while the goddess, who is called for brevity "Hera," as the consort of "Zeus," embodies attributes of the nature-goddess or Great Mother, and she is seated on lions.

The central cult at Hierapolis is thus apparently identical with that which the Hittites had established in the land 1500 years before Lucian wrote.

Zebu on some excellent Balochi pottery:


Although much about their provenance is lost, they are apparently from the little know Nal Buthi and Kulli cultures that preceded (Nal) and accompanied (Kulli) the height of Indus culture. They use of the zebu bull, pipal tree, tiger and other major motifs familiar to us from Harappa and Mohenjo-daro.

Nausharo specimen with possibly a Peacock landing on it.




In other IVC seals, the supposed connections are:


Auriga as the "double axe" with Aries

The image, his star chart, is on p. 154, comparable to Farmer's C-23a on p. 27.

Benght Hemtun describes
that the double axe symbol indicates two crescent moons...

Farmer says nothing about it; happens to be over another Tiger with Trough. He refers the glyphs to M-314a, that is, the long string of them with no animals.

It is mentioned as being from Chanhu Daro in an Iranian study that traces the "double axe" to Nal Period II Pottery, ca. 3100-2700 B. C. E.. The two things do not seem connected. I would hesitate to call it an axe, or, anything.

Chanhu Daro Gaur Bull about to have intercourse with a human female.

Here is the beginning on a study of rules applied to animal figures, a small baby step in actually organizing the finds. I am surprised we don't have it. All you need is pictures with tags for location, age, content...pretty simple such as Himalyan Art Resources does...but not done for IVC or Elam that I am aware of.



Curiously:


Madra-gara Saungayani (‘ descendant of Auriga ’) is the
name of a teacher, whose pupil was Kamboja Aupamanyava in
the Vamsa Brahmana.

Auriga is called Ratha saarathi mandalam in Sanskrit.

That would be the case if you wanted to call it a "chariot", but so far that doesn't seem to be coming from India. They do say:



Prajapati (Delta Aurigae)

True for this origin of October meteor showers.

Same in a list from Raman 1927.



However:

“This first part of Gemini is marked by the Nakshatra of Soma called Mrigashira. It is said to be the head of Prajapati or Brahma, the Creator, who also has the form of a deer or antelope.

In Vedic thought, the area of the Milky Way, and the surrounding signs of Taurus and Gemini, was regarded as the most auspicious portion of the zodiac, particularly the Nakshatras Rohini and Mrigashira.

Mrigashira includes the region of Orion. If one draws a line directly north from the three stars in the belt of Orion one comes to the star Calpella (Alpha Auriga), the star called ‘the heart of Brahma’ (Brahma-hridaya) in Vedic thought.

This appears to be the main spiritual power point in the Vedic zodiac.” ~ @dr.davidfrawley

Also known as Āgrahāyaṇī, also called Invakā or Invagā, Andhakā, ‘blind’, in the Śāntikalpa of the Atharvaveda, there are three faint stars and the Mansion is the cusp of Taurus and Gemini.


Appears to be part of an article from Frawley:

The key to the meaning of the signs of the zodiac should be evident from the orientation of the zodiac itself. The most dramatic factor in stellar observation for any person is the Milky Way. The meaning of the signs of the zodiac, if stellar based, should be centered on their relationship to the Milky Way. The Milky Way intersects the zodiac around two main points, 0 Gemini and 0 Sagittarius.

In Vedic thought, the area of the Milky Way, and the surrounding signs of Taurus and Gemini, was regarded as the most auspicious portion of the zodiac, particularly the Nakshatras Rohini and Mrigashira. On the other hand, the opposite side of the Milky Way, and the surrounding signs of Scorpio and Sagittarius, was regarded as most inauspicious, particularly the Nakshatras Jyeshta and Mula.

The 0 Gemini area is marked by the Nakshatra of Soma called Mrigashira or the antelope’s head (23 20 Taurus – 06 40 Gemini, with 0 Gemini as the central point). It is said to be the head of Prajapati or Brahma, the Creator, who also has the form of a deer or antelope. Mrigashira includes the same region as the constellation Orion, marking its upper portion. If one draws a line directly north from the three stars in the belt of Orion one comes to the star Capella (Alpha Auriga), the star called the heart of Brahma (Brahma-hridaya) in Vedic thought (Surya Siddhanta VIII.20). This appears to be the main spiritual power point in the Vedic zodiac.

Soma in Vedic thought, we should note, is the nectar of immortality and the drink of the Gods. It is also identified with the Moon and with various sacred plants. The Vedic view appears to be that the Milky Way in this region of the sky is the heavenly Soma.

The opposite side of the zodiac or the 0 Sagittarius area was, on the contrary, a region of death and poison, the worst place in the zodiac for the Moon to be located at birth–said to signify death of the person or death in his family.

The main Vedic symbol of the creative power is the Bull (vrisha or vrishabha). It relates to Brahma (the Brahma bull) or the creator, also called Prajapati or the lord of progeny. This is the probably Vedic basis of the bull as the symbol of the sign Taurus, which is Prajapati’s or Brahma’s sign, the source of his creative power. The bull is also a symbol of virility and sexual power, which comes into play here as well. Vrisha, which is short for Vrishabha or bull, specifically means virility.

In Vedic thought, the Creator Prajapati is a kind of demiurge, not the supreme divine. His creation of the world of time and death is based on desire and is stained by duality. In some myths his creation proceeds through his intercourse with his own daughter (Rohini), for which sin Prajapati himself is eventually slain by the other Gods. The Gods come together and create the great God Rudra to slay Prajapati with his arrow for this indiscretion. Opposite Prajapati, therefore, is always the shadow of lust and envy. This also enters into the symbolism of Scorpio.

Prajapati’s main action is procreation or prajanana. This occurs through the creation of couples as the Vedas and Upanishads say. The Prashna Upanishad I.15. says that those who follow the law of Prajapati is to create couples or give rise to intercourse or Mithuna. This provides a basis for calling the sign after the bull or Taurus as Mithuna or Gemini, which in Vedic thought is not portrayed as twins but as a male and female couple. Note that Vedic Soma is also connected to enjoyment, sexuality, reproduction, which can be related to the Milky Way or heavenly Soma as located in Gemini.

The two main stars that mark the constellation of Gemini, Castor and Pollus or Alpha and Beta Gemini, are the two stars that mark the Nakshatra of Punarvasu (20 00 Gemini – 03 20 Cancer) and the end of the sign Gemini. They are ruled by Goddess Aditi, who is the great Earth Mother, carrying a similar creative energy to that of Prajapati.

A confirmation to the connection between Rashis and Nakshatras can perhaps be found in Harappan archaeological ruins. An Harappan seal dated to 2400 BCE has been found recently that shows a deer and an arrow on one side, the symbol of Mrigashirsha (Orion) and a Scorpion on the other. Scorpio is opposite Orion in the zodiac. When one rises, the other sets. S.M. Ashfaque has argued an astronomical basis for this seal (“Primitive astronomy in the Indus Civilization. In Old Problems and New Perspectives in the Archaeology of South Asia, ed. J.M. Kenoyer, 207-215, Madison, Wisconsin).

That is to say the inauspicious direction is the galactic core, near Sagittarius A*, the power direction being its opposite.


Brihadaranyaka Upanishad is metaphysical on Brahma Hrdaya.



Pathak 1920 on Hercules, successor of Vali:

Hercules was named
Indra when Alpha Ophiuchi marked the Sun’s south Solstitial
position. This is also supported by the fact, that Alpha
Aurigae marked at the time the North solstitial point and
that the constellation of Auriga is still called Brahma Rashi
or the sign of Brahma. Brahma is also the presiding deity
of Abhijit Nakshatra and apparently Auriga succeeded to
the position when a new Indra was appointed. Thus in a
complete revolution of the vernal equinoctial point, there
were 2 Indras and 2 Brahmas...

He assigns major deities as:


Indra—Ophiuchus and Hercules.
Rudra— Ursa Minor.
Brahma— Lyra and Auriga.
Vishnu— Cygnus


Further related:

[Draco] was called
Nahush by the ancient Indo-Aryans and was figured, as if
it was riding on a chariot, vide Rig Veda III-53-6 & VIII-46-27;. The constellation of Bears aud Auriga were then
named chariot and charioteer respectively.

Iota Aurigae was probably the original principal star
of the Nakshatra now called Mrigshira. Beta Orionis was
substituted for it and the Nakshatra was named Mriga or
deer, as appears from the Rig Veda [ VII -93 -14].

According to Surya sidhanta, Delta Aurigae, Alpha
Aurigae and Sirius are respectively called Prajapati or
Brahma, Brahma Hriday or the heart of Brahma and Mriga
Vyadh or the hunter of deer. Alpha Aurigae is the
brightest star of the constellation and must have been
originally called Prajapati instead of his heart. Moreover, its
right ascension nearly coincides with that of Alpha Tauri,
the chief star of Rohni Nakshatra, when these stars mark
the vernal equinoctial point. This was most probably the
reason, that Alpha Aurigae was hired as the presiding deity
of Alpha Tauri and was therefore cosidered as the latter’s,
father.

When Alpha Aurigae no longer served the purpose
of Mriga Nakshatra, the present Nakshatra Mrigshira or the
head of the deer was formed.

This word has been used
in connection with the constellation of Auriga, which Was
called Brahma Rashi, vide Mahabharat Bhishma Parva,
chapter 3 and Valmiki Ramayan VI-4-48.

I personally cannot find in the Veda verses anything connecting Nahusa, a chariot, and Draco. Sayana's commentary for X.61.7 gives the Brahma-as-deer story. He is actually defining vastospati in the hymn:

Vāstoṣpati is an inflected compound of vāstoḥ, the genitive of vāstu (“house”), and pati (“lord”).

Ṛgveda 7.55

Ṛv.7.54

Sayana is relying on Aitareya Brāhmaṇa to make this a Rudra hymn, whereas in Book Seven, vastospati would be Indra. Meluhha vs. Wilson are such varying translations, I am not sure what to say. They are not even close, and nothing is close to the announcement about the verses above. Is it Rudra or Indra who slays Deer Head Brahma?


Brahma Rashi is the Sanskrit alphabet, or:


Brahmarāśi (ब्रह्मराशि).—

1) the whole mass or circle of sacred knowledge.

2) an epithet of Paraśurāma.

3) a particular constellation.


In Ramayana VI.4.49, it has been interpreted as the Pole Star, Dhruva, even though Dhruva is specifically named in the next line. Same on the Ramayana site.


Some are wanting to call it Auriga's opposite, Vega:


Alpha Lyrae(Brahma rashi-Abhijit)


and this is along the lines of why it should be refuted:

brahmarāśir viśuddhaś ca śuddhāś ca paramarṣayaḥ
arciṣmantaḥ prakāśante dhruvaṃ sarve pradakṣiṇam.

{Meaning: The Brahma Rashi (Abhijit) is becoming clear; the Parama rishis (Sapta rishis) also are clear. They are shining with bright light and all of them are going around the Pole star (6-4-49)}

The verse doesn’t say that Abhijit was the pole star. It only says that Abhijit and the Sapta rishis having become clear are going round the pole star. The pole star was different from Abhijit. In Mr Oak’s date of Ramayana at 12K BP Saptarishis were not circumambulating the pole star as seen from the south Indian latitude reported by Lakshmana.

It doesn't say that Brahma Rasi was Abhijit, either.

It doesn't say what it is, and it's not doing anything special. It has the implication that Brahma and his seven mind-born sons are luminaries revolving the same way everything does, except, of course, the Pole Star itself.



The expression is involved in the definition of the great North Country:

Sugriva is describing all the way to arctic sea but saying that go up to just north of latitude 40 in terms of astronomy which is the projection point of brahma rashi stars of which Sugriva explains.





Physically that may be true but this is what is needed to take it for Ramayana seriously:

A date of 12000 BCE will need pushing back the history of agriculture in India to almost 5000 years earlier than its documented evidence. However, who knows, some new discoveries are waiting to be made...

We would agree Ramayana is probably within a few generations of Rg Veda, and, knowing I and VII as Vaisnava additions and just thinking of the majority of the book as somewhat accurate, less tampered, it is nothing less just because it is not from such remote antiquity. Valmiki is Adi Kavya, he is using a new power related to Vak. And if basic parts of the narrative can be more easily translated, the relevant section is Lakshman speaking to Rama about "mission accomplished". Let us ask how in the very next line he may be referring to a star marker:


"I am seeing all grand good omens in the sky and the earth self-evident of your fulfillment, Oh Rama! The wind which is favorable, gentle beneficial and comfortable to the army is blowing alongside."

"These beasts and birds are uttering sonorous and sweet sounds. All the quarters are looking bright. Even the sun is clear."



So there is an interpreted break before he continues describing a terrestrial environment, streams, trees, and so on. It is rather something about the Ikshvaku Dynasty:

"The planet of Venus with its bright light, born from the sage Bhrigu (a mind-born son of Brahma the creator) is hanging behind you. Dhruva, the very bright pole-star (which is recognized by the contiguity of the stars presided over by the seven Brahmana sages) is becoming clear. All the pure great sages having bright light are shining are shining around Dhruva star.

"The royal sage Trishanku, our paternal grand father, born in the high-souled Ikshvaku dynasty, is purely shining (as a star) in front, along with his family-priest."

"Visakha stars are shining clearly without any evil influence. This supreme constellation is of our Ikshvakus, the high-souled."

"The Mula constellation of the titans is badly aspected, in that it is touched by a comet risen with a tail of light and tormented by it."

"All this has come for the destruction of the titans, for, the star seized by death is oppressed by a planet in its last hour."

Well, it is for the destruction of Rakshashas, like Bhima Devi.

Their ancestor is descended from Vedic Kings Mandhata and Trasadasyu, and possibly Prthu. Trisanku becomes the Southern Cross in:


Rāmāyaṇa i, 57 (59 G.)


This is Visakha (Cusp of Libra and Scorpio):


...the 14th (later 16th) lunar asterism (figured by a decorated arch and containing four or originally two stars under the regency of a dual divinity, Indra and Agni

Mūla means “the root” and is associated with the deity known as Nirṛti (Goddess of destruction).


These latter two are Naksatras, meaning they do not have to be immediately visible to state a fact about them, such as a comet around the cusp of Sagittarius and Capricorn.

The Brahma Rasi and the Seven Sages are using an expression that is not necessarily "radiating, shining", in fact I would be less prone to think of it that way. Suddha:

Light, bright, white;--used of the waxing half of the month or of any lunar day in it. 7 Right, good, free from any inauspiciousness or evil bodings; also pure, or fit for holy rites and acts;--used of signs, planets, lunar days &c.


Venus has "followed" Rama. The Brahma Rasi and the Sages or Ursa Major are shining brightly, and, Trisanku is "in front" of them.

He is basically pushed into a new universe by Sage Visvamitra.


This will really put a fly in the ointment of Astrological Date. Sardulakarnavadana was taken to China ca. year 200, but, they have confused it with similar characters in the Shurangama Sutra. That is not what it is. It is a short story with some astronomical material:

The Shaardoolakarnaavadaan deals with two lovers, of different castes, who have come together again after many incarnations, but must overcome limitations of caste in order to reunite. The fathers of the two principals, a Brahmin and a learned outcaste named Trishanku, debate about reality, and it is within the frame of this debate that the astrological material is included.

In the Shaardoolakarnaavadaan, the sage of the Southern Cross has incarnated once again as the outcaste father of the young lover.

In this work, all the lists begin with the Nakshatra Krittikaa, the constellation known in the West as the Pleiades. This demonstrates the archaic, even atavistic, nature of the text. All the most ancient lists (including Atharv Ved, 19.7) begin in this fashion; inasmuch as the Hindu New Year has always begun at the spring equinox, many scholars have believed that the Nakshatra must have originated at a time when the equinox took place in the Pleiades, an era which began around 2,400 BC during the Harappan period. Despite the fact that the Shaardoolakarnaavadaan was written while the equinox was in Bharanee Nakshatra, none of the lists were ever altered to fit the actual astronomical situation. It is only after about 300 BC. that we find Nakshatra lists beginning with Ashwinee, marking the beginning of Aries.

Despite its Buddhist origins, the astronomy and astrology contained within the Shaardoolakarnaavadaan is characteristic of Hindu Jyotish as practiced throughout India. While the love story that prefaces the work, as well as the debate about caste which follows, are indeed of Buddhist origin, the astrological portion of the text contains no references to Buddhism, but many references to the caste system, Vaidik rituals, etc. Part of the text’s significance lies in the fact that its contents are similar to those of the legendary Garg Sanhitaā, an enormously important astronomical text, also from the 1st century BC, which was believed to contain all indigenous Indian astronomical knowledge.

Only ruined fragments of Garga Samhita exist; Surya Siddhanta is from ca. 500.

For some reason, the Indian equinox does not "tick" through the Nakshatras, it "jumps" to Aries. If the Pleiades marked it, they would *not* make the whole Age of Taurus.


Can Rama or India know the Southern Cross, which contains the Coalsack Nebula, yes:


It's even visible some times of year for those in the Northern Hemisphere below about 26 degrees, wrote EarthSky. Hawaii, southern Florida, and some parts of Texas, for example, will see the stars of the cross clear the horizon on clear May evenings.



It may take a moment to contemplate how something like that revolves "in front of" the Big Dipper.

But this has not identified Brahma Rasi.


One is not sure when found similarly used in Gandhari's Curse in 11 Stri Parva:


If Brahmarashi means Abhijit...Brahma Rashi could also refer to Rohini...


brahmarāśiṃ samāvṛtya lohitāṅgo vyavasthitaḥ


The line is used to define Lohitanga as Mars as it seems to be consistently everywhere, although, also, perhaps esoterically, as the "son of earth".

Sravana is the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius.



A better translation is going to mess up our Astrological Dating with what has not been said:

“Having made its first and second station, glowing like fire, and having returned to (or: having surrounded/inhabited) brahmarāśiḥ, the red-limbed <planet> was located in Śra­vaṇa.”

A commentary given in the apparatus of the critical edition gives the following explanation for the term brahmarāśiḥ: brahmadaivatarohiṇīnakṣatrasya vṛṣarāśitvāt, which means that the planet is in Taurus and that Taurus is called brahmarāśiḥ “because the nakṣatra Rohiṇī, which has Brahmā as its presiding deity, belongs to the zodiac sign of Taurus”. Astronomically, this solution is not convincing, though. When a planet is retrograde in Śravaṇa, it will take it several months, if not years, until it arrives in Taurus. But such a long time span of observation is not likely for the omens that take place immediately before the great war. Besides, no evidence is found in other texts that brahmarāśiḥ was ever used in the sense of Taurus.

So, should we identify brahmarāśiḥ as the rāśiḥ of Śravaṇa/Abhijit, i. e. as Capricorn? This is not likely either.

The commentator Nīlakaṇṭha believes that in the current verse the word rāśiḥ stands for nakṣatram, i.e. for “lunar mansion”.

“After the red-limbed one, i.e. Mars, has made his first and second station and has returned … to the sign (rāśi), i.e. the lunar mansion, Śravaṇa, which had been entered by Brahmā, i.e. Jupiter, he stands (in Śravaṇa).”

Hence, according to Nīlakaṇṭha, brahmarāśiḥ means “the nakṣatra entered by Brahmā = Jupiter”, and he believes that Mars was in conjunction with Jupiter in the lunar mansion of Śravaṇa (=brahmarāśiḥ). Ganguli apparently follows Nīlakaṇṭha too, for he translates the verse as follows:

“The red-bodied (Mars) possessed of the effulgence of fire, wheeling circuitously, stayeth in a line with the constellation Sravana over-ridden by Vrihaspati.”

Moreover, if we look into the apparatus of the critical edition, we find the following variants of the text:

brahmarāśiṃ samāvṛtya
brāhmaṃ nakṣatramāśritya
brahmanakṣatramāśritya

The editor considers brahmarāśiṃ as correct. However, the variants make it clear that there was a tradition since ancient times that had brahmanakṣatraṃ, i.e. „lunar mansion of Brahmā“ instead of brahmarāśiṃ. Therefore, we ought to follow Nīlakaṇṭha assuming that rāśiḥ here stands for nakṣatram, i.e. not for “zodiac sign” but rather for “lunar mansion”.


“After rising in the west, the paitāmaha comet Calaketu has his tail, which is as long as a finger joint, slant towards south and crosses … a third of the sky. And while he moves northward, he more and more shows his tail, which resembles a spearhead, comes close to brahmanakṣatram, within a short time touches dhruva (a star near the celestial north pole), brahmarāśiḥ and saptarṣis (= Ursa maior), crosses half the sky in southward direction, and sets.”

The comet appears in the western evening sky and within a short time visits several constellations near the celestial north pole, among which also brahmarāśiḥ. Here, brahmarāśiḥ can not possibly stand for a zodiac sign, and especially not for Capricorn, which has been located south of the celestial equator for several millennia.

Vṛddhagarga, another pre-Hellenistic astronomer, also describes the path of the comet Calaketu; however, he replaces brahmarāśiḥ by brahmahṛdayam.

The star brahmahṛdayam is known from the Sūryasiddhānta. It is Capella (α Aurigae). However, this star is far away from the other constellations touched by Calaketu. The comet would first have visited Vega (brahmanakṣatram), then wandered to Capella (brahmahṛdayam), then northward to Thuban (? dhruvaḥ) and Ursa Maior (saptarṣayaḥ), and then crossed “half the sky” (i.e. almost the entire visible sky) in southward direction. Astronomically, this spectacular path is far less likely than the one described by Parāśara. Apparently Garga was also confused by the separate mention of brahmanakṣatram and brahmarāśiḥ, and therefore speculated that the latter had to have been brahmahṛdayam. In any case, it is clear that Garga did not think of a zodiac sign either, but of a star or constellation.

Now let's get back to the verse MBh 6.3.17, where a “red-limbed” (lohitāṅgaḥ) celestial body makes two stations and returns to brahmarāśiḥ. The term “the red-limbed one” usually refers to Mars. However, five verses earlier it was said that Mars was located in the lunar mansion of Maghā. The question arises whether MBh 6.3.17 could not refer to the comet Calaketu. Comets also sometimes have a reddish dust tail, and comets are also mentioned in other places in the epic. Besides, Parāśara reports that Calaketu has a catastrophic effect, that he destroys the whole world (kṛtsnamabhihinasti lokam) and annihilates the region madhyadeśa completely (madhyadeśe bhūyiṣṭhaṃ janapadamanavaśeṣaṃ kurute). This seems to accord very well with the Mahābhārata war.

Another instance from Atharvavedapariśiṣṭa also associates comets that cause slaughter of people (puruṣakṣayaḥ) with brahmarāśiḥ:

“Those (comets) which appear like the flowers of the Kalpa tree with subtle rays,
- either single or double or fivefold -,
these are the sons of brahmarāśiḥ, planets formed like the flower of the Kalpa tree.
They run over the whole sky when a slaughter of people takes place.”

Hence, the verse in Bhīṣmaparva may refer to the comet Calaketu. But this is only a possibility. The translation of the verse I gave in the beginning works perfectly for a planet, too. And brahmarāśiḥ could also refer to that portion of the ecliptic which is known as the lunar mansion Abhijit. However, if we assume that the “red-limbed one” is Mars, then we have a problem with verse 6.3.12, where it says that Mars is in Maghā in Leo. In any case, it should be clear that the concept of rāśiḥ here does not refer to a zodiac sign. All available sources, Vṛddhagarga, Parāśara, Varāhamihira, Nīlakaṇṭha, and the variants in the critical apparatus to MBh 6.3.17 indicate that brahmarāśiḥ denotes a lunar mansion or a constellation connected to a lunar mansion (e.g. Abhijit or Lyra).

Is the Mahabharata using the same Comet Calaketu that sounds like what we just got in Ramayana?

Is this a copy??

Brihat Samhita is preposterous on this; although comets are only one kind of Ketu, they are not subject to calculatios; did they not know the 84-year Halley's comet or something? The descriptions make one wish they were left off. One would want this to be complete superstition about random meteorites, it makes no sense for actual comets.




Back to the IVC Seals:



Bangles Sign of Inanna/ or
mother goddess
Auriga constellation


Peepal leaf Indicates the tree of
life/
Inanna is the goddess
of this constellation
Auriga (Or)
Andromeda
constellation
33 124(a)/ H598

Crab within tree of
life/
Hybrid symbol
Day of Pushya
(Karka) in the month
of Inanna
Cancer symbol
within Auriga
constellation




The tiger indicates the Auriga
constellation and the feeding trough indicates the Orion
constellation.

Rare Tiger and Trough is not the sharpest picture ever made.

The Tiger is Auriga because Inanna is standing on an Indian Bull. Something like that. I am not sure of his reasoning, but that is what is said.


From some of the other descriptive material, we will shift to "creator":

Genetic evidences suggest that people with M-20 marker genes were the
second group of people to enter India and they were living and multiplying in
Turan basin 30,000 years ago, and this marker is found in high frequency in south
India (i.e.50%). (Wells, 2003, p. 113) Hence it is reasonable to conclude that they were
early pastoral Dravidians and they formed the basic strata of Indian populace of
that time and were culturally interacting with Sumerian people as well as Turan
people. Further the cultural interaction sphere as defined by Possehl clearly shows
the similarities in seals and religious belief between Turan people, Sumerian
people and Indus people

Sarama is the Dog Star -Sirius

Sarama is mentioned prominently in Rig Veda. There is a narration in Rig
Veda about missing ―cows‖ and ―Sarama‖ the dog finds them in the custody of
―Panis‖ after a long search. Then she (dog) converses with the Panis threatening
them that she is working for Indra and she will inform him about the incident of
capture of cows by Panis. It was a warning to them to release the cows.

Prajapathi was closely attached with Rohini star.

Later, Prajapathi was dethroned; because he was accused of having sexual
relationship with his daughter Rohini. He was beheaded by Rudra, his own son,
who was born out of that incestuous relationship. Historians have interpreted this
story as a creation story. But in reality it is an astronomical story to remember a
calendar event. Prajapathi was the bull, the Auriga constellation and is closely
related to Aldebaran (Rohini). Prajapathi was the principal star (Indra) to mark the
beginning of the year. He was the first Indra of Rig Veda. But later he was
dethroned because of changes in heliacal risings.


Indra was chief in the sense, he was principal star in indicating the forth
coming rainy season, or beginning of the year. This role was played by different
stars at different time. In the beginning it was the bull constellation Taurus and
principal star Aldebaran. Arising of Aldebaran in heliacal rising position indicated
the New Year as well as forth coming rains. This was the period of Indus people
and they worshipped Aldebaran as Indra. Later Aldebaran got replaced with Canis
Major (Dog Star) because of precessional movement of earth.

Later that was also replaced and star Chitra was made beginning of the
New Year. The conclusion is that the position of Indra was unstable and was
replaced periodically. The original developers of Rig Veda knows the real position
of Indra and gave due respect as rain predictor, but later the power of war god
added to it. Later heliacal arising of Aries constellation also marked the beginning
of the year, because of this frequent replacement phenomenon; Indra did not have a
lasting influence to remain as a supreme god.

It looks like that it is attested by an Indus seal which shows a goddess (most
probably mother goddess and later day Kali of India) fighting tigers with a wheel
over her head, the wheel symbolizes the prime constellation that is Indra of that
time (Auriga constellation) and she is standing over an elephant, which means that
her vahan was elephant.

In Rig-Vedic hymns, the god Rudra is described as a cruel hunter and
raider. With his characteristic weapon the bow, he shoots arrows at cattle and
people resulting in fever, disease and death. This role of Rudra is taken over by
Shiva in Vedic period and his youthful son Skanda (Kartikeya/ Murugan) (Hindu –
war-god). Rudra is born out of the incestuous relationship of his father Prajapathi
with his daughter Rohini. Rudra punishes his own father for this incestuous
relationship. This crude story should not be taken literally and confused with moral
values of ancient people. This story is an allegorical expression describing the loss
of importance of bull constellation. It looks like that the beginning of the year in
ancient times coincided with the heliacal rising of the constellation Auriga (the bull
constellation). Later it was replaced with Dog Star (Canis Major) sometime in the
ancient past. This change was very important and was recorded in story form with
an attractive story.

It is possible that
the shifting heliacal rising from one star constellation to another results in change
of mythological story. This story seems to be very important one, and is seen in all
major cultures. It looks like that a major change occurred along with introduction
of this mythological story. Marduk replaces Inanna in Sumerian mythology in the
same way Indra replaced mother goddess as the god of Auriga constellation in
Indian mythology.

This refers to "a being", or a certain class, that may be called Prajapati:

Name of a supreme god above or among the Vedic deities [Ṛg-veda (only x, 21, 10)]


The suggestion is probably typo for X.121, which is a Hiranyagarbha hymn also having "vimana", with an unknown refrain:

kasmai devāya


being called "the divine Ka". The target, or, "the prajapati" is probably given in line eight with:


Daksa and Adhi Deva


Line five explains Agni as a Hotr:


“Agni, generated by Atharvan, is cognizant of all praises; he is the messenger of Vivasvat, the beloved friend of Yama, for your exhilaration; you are mighty.”

Griffiths instead of "divine Ka" just takes it as the question "To what deva?".

Hiranyagarbha is Bhuta Jatapati (lord of those who are born). He gives them Atma and Bala. He is the sole king of the world of Prana.



When the vast waters overspread the universe containing the Garbha and giving birth to Agni, then was produced the one breath of the gods...

He who by his might beheld the waters all around containing Daksa and giving birth to Yajna, he who among the gods was the one supreme god...




Prajapati is also named in X.184.1:


viṣṇur yoniṃ kalpayatu tvaṣṭā rūpāṇi piṃśatu | ā siñcatu prajāpatir dhātā garbhaṃ dadhātu te ||

“May Viṣṇu construct the womb, may Tvaṣṭā fabricate the members, may Prajāpati sprinkle (the seed), may Dhātā cherish your embryo.”


That would be Bull-like.

He may be all through Mandala Ten, there are over eighty references, but a lot of that is comments. We are generally curious about the older portions and how it works so we don't have somebody give us Purusha Suktam and Caste. Or repetitively state things that are not there, and so on.


Prajapati is implied or commented in most older verses such as VI.55.1 to Pusan, Goat rider Pasupa, messenger of Surya:


vimuco napāt


Napat being roughly "grandson" of vimuco "multiplier", and so every abstraction about having created, made progeny, etc., is attributed to Prajapati who is usually not named. For example he is implied with Puskara Lotus and:


atharvan means prāṇa, vital air extracted fire or animal heat from the water, prāṇa udakasakāśād Agnim niśeṣaṇa mathitavān


Or he is implied if it says Indra was created.

Prajapati is the name of the Sage of III.38.



The name may be translated as in IV.53.2, protector, or:


Lord of the whole world's life


Who or which one?

In Rg Veda, Prajapati's inter-alia Daksa praises the Dasras (Aswins).

Daksa as parent of the world.


Daksa is in Rig Veda some eighty-ish times as well, and is highly intricate:

Among Adityas in II.27.1.

Multiple formats of Adityas appear in the Vedas.

His daughter Khyati has been described as the Sage of 10.107 (Daksina Prajapatya).

10.72 is by another Daksayani, and contains the famous paradox on Daksa born from Aditi, Aditi born from Daksa, and the identification:


Brahmaṇaspati: the lord of food; the same as Aditi


Martanda is in that verse and in II.38.8.


The verses also seem to suggest the existent (Sat) produced by the Unborn (Aja).


Is Prajapati Brahma?


Buddhism usually says "the or a" Brahma such as in this meaning:


In the Purva Mimamsa philosophy, which is based on a study of the samhita and brahmana sections of the vedas, the word brahma refers to the vedic mantras.


a special kind of priest, or, i. e., Atharvan.

Dirghatamas is "the brahma" for some; he is their charioteer (sārathiḥ).


Brahma is ignored as the first word of VI.16.36, or, as in most of the book, it is prayer or mantra.


Describing X.109 by Juhu Brahma:


Juhū is vāc, speech, the wife of Brahmā. Vācaspati, the lord of speech, who is Bṛhaspati, is also said to be the husband of Juhū or Vāc. On some occasion, Bṛhaspati's sin resulted in her losing her husband's affections, and he deserted her. Afterwards the gods consulted together as to the means of expiation of Bṛhaspati's sin, and restorred her to her husband.



Wiki says:


The word Brahma is found in Rig veda hymns such as 2.2.10, 6.21.8, 10.72.2 and in Atharva veda hymns such as 6.122.5, 10.1.12, and 14.1.131.


But that is brahmana, brahmanyato, and brahmanaspati.

Melluha links numerous uses, most of which are not names, but the prayer/mantra/priest-ness that is happening. VII.41.1 is a pantheon not quite having "Brahma":



AGNI at dawn, and Indra we invoke at dawn, and Varuna and Mitra, and the Asvins twain.
Bhaga at dawn, Pusan, and Brahmanaspati, Soma at dawn, Rudra we will invoke at dawn.

Similar to VII.44.1:


I CALL on Dadhikras, the first, to give you aid, the Asvins, Bhaga, Dawn, and Agni kindled well,
Indra, and Visnu, Pusan, Brahmanaspati, Adityas, Heaven and Earth, the Waters, and the Light.



This title has been attached to Brihaspati, Vishnu, Brahman, the moon, Ganapati...obviously the verses distinguish it from at least some of these.



I cannot pry it loose or find "brahma" as a personal name, but we do see the two halves, Brahma Viraj and Vak Viraj or that Speech must be united with divine aspiration.

The closest personal equivalent may not be a "-pati", but, the strange entity Daksha.


Daksa, "one who is alert", is thoroughly complicated:


Dakṣa (दक्ष) is ansother name for Kukkuṭa, which is a Sanskrit word referring to the “hen/cock/rooster”.


Lord of Prajāpatis.2

2) Vāyu-purāṇa 70-5; 101. 35, 49.

Pictures show him as a rotund and obese man with a stocky body, protruding belly, and muscular with the head of an ibex-like creature with spiral horns.

When Śiva heard this he was very much provoked, and according to one account, himself went to the sacrifice, completely destroyed it and pursued Dakṣa who assumed the form of a deer, and at last decapitated him. But Śiva is said to have afterwards restored him to life, and he thenceforward acknowledged the god's supremacy.



This, of course, allows the upwelling of Shiva, as if here were more moral or more important and triumphant.

Daksa is given the head of a deer or goat, similar to astrology. Like Brahma? Or Daksa was slain by Indra?



Importantly, Daksa creates twice, it is two stories. First in Caksusa Manvantara, and then he re-incarnates with the same name here. It is *this* bridge between worlds that is metaphysically subtle, profound, and challenging.

The destruction of Shiva's first wife I have taken to mean transcendent consciousness buried and hidden in worldliness.

It's not a vie for "most powerful deity", but, an attempt to figure out divine psychology.

Daksa creates many of the most important figures, like the wives of Dharma and Kasyapa, and the Lunar Mansions, of whom, Rohini is Candra's favorite.

Vidura is a son of Dharma, having the same name as the source of Lapis Lazuli and:


The Mahabharata contains Vidura's elaboration of what constitutes dharma.



One of his wives, similarly, there may be two, or one re-born Arundhati--Alcor, or not it but a Sūksma Tārā (telescopic star) very close to Vasiṣṭha:



Arundhatī (अरुन्धती).—Wife of Sage Vasiṣṭha. She was born as the daughter of Karddama Prajāpati and Devahūti. Surnamed Urja; also called Akshamala; acted as guardian angel to Sitā after she had been abandoned by Rāma.

Arundhatī (अरुन्धती).—A wife of Kāla (God of death). (Vishnu Purana)


Perhaps at least as significantly:


A daughter of Dakṣa, and one of Dharma's wives: gave birth to Pṛthivī and all viṣayas; (gave birth to all earthly objects, Viṣṇu-purāṇa).*

* Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 3. 2 and 34; 7. 28; 8. 86; Matsya-purāṇa 5. 15 and 19; 203. 2; Vāyu-purāṇa 66. 2 and 35; Viṣṇu-purāṇa I. 15. 105, 108. (also Saurapurana, Brahma Purana)

Also in Padma Purana.



I think you have to give birth to the Earth before you can walk on it.

Dharma is mental, Vasistha was a person. So it is two phases or manifestations of Arundhati, one of whom appears to be the mother of Mother Earth.



Vasistha VII.33 is perhaps the first beatification.

She one-upped Visvamitra because Women are projected as more intelligent than men in Hindu scriptures. Seven of them.





She is not in Rg Veda and shows up as:

“ṛṣiṇām arundhati” in Taittiriya Aranyakā-3.9.2.

Nirukta says ṛśi raśmayaḥ, the one who pulls. At one point of time during no pole star condition the observation via Nyāya succumbed till Arundhati and interestingly, it was Arundhati who was pulling all the Riśis.

There was no Pole Star for 5,000 years between Tau Herculis and Thuban/Alpha Draconis (ca. 11091 BCE and 4508 BCE).

King Brihadratha observes the Pole star drifting away which is an example of observation of precession of earth’s axis in our scriptures. The complication arises that if the Arundhatidarśana – observation had been so mandatory, then there were times when no visible polestar in the vicinity of the pole point, i.e, earth’s rotational axis was available. Then who became the night guides for the direction “north” if there were no polestars.

Arundhatidarśananyāya* is a Sanskrit maxim used to infer “the unknown from that which is known”. The maxim is named after Arundhati as the faded star Arundhati is identified only after pointing the brighter star Vasishtha.

Yes, but she is not "unknown" because visible--the unknown would be the missing pole star, period of precession, etc.

Sometimes Alcor "leads".

This contradicts the legend of Svaha:

The recognition of this unwavering position of the Arundhati star was first reported at the time of the ‘fall’ of the star Abhijit (Vega). While recounting the birth of Kartikeya, the sage Markandeya describes the events that resemble a catastrophe by fire. The narration of certain celestial positions in that context reveals some interesting events of the Vedic society. One of the revelations was the recognition of the unwavering position of Arundhati with reference to Vasishtha [Mizar] in the sky.

Talageri refutes Oak's Arundhati Epoch--there may have been a period when Alcor "led", but Mahabharata is simply listing "weird omens" nearly opposite of the Ramayana.

It is more correct that Alcor does not orbit Mizar, as in most binary systems, but the two revolve around a center of gravity.

Surya Siddhanta Updates refer to two pole stars, north and south, and Oak overlooks this possibility:


In the year 2900 BCE, Thuban was the North pole star and Alpha Hydri or Alpha Eridani was the South pole star.



The sun is the closest to the Earth during Grishma which causes Sun’s rapidness...



Being "close", in terms of orbital distance, increases the speed:


Perihelion and aphelion do however have an indirect effect on the seasons: because Earth's orbital speed is minimum at aphelion and maximum at perihelion, the planet takes longer to orbit from June solstice to September equinox than it does from December solstice to March equinox. Therefore, summer in the northern hemisphere lasts slightly longer (93 days) than summer in the southern hemisphere (89 days).


Did they really know orbital distance? The seasons are mostly caused by axial tilt, and so i. e. when the northern hemisphere is "closer" by way of tilting, it is summer.

The complicated interaction of multiple precessional movements were studied in the 1920s and known as Milankovitch cycles.



By ignoring a traditional SS commentator and manufacturing evidence. R. Roy shows that the above was many different ways to say nothing:

It is mentioned in the verses 6–8 of the Yajus Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa that the winter solstice was at the beginning of the Śraviṣṭhā (Dhaniṣṭhā) nakṣatra and the summer solstice was at the midpoint of the Āśleṣā nakṣatra. Based on this observation, the Vedāṅga Jyotiśa is dated between 1150 BCE to 1400 BCE.

From my research work, the original boundaries of nakṣatras are different from currently accepted positions and I have dated the observation to ~1850 BCE.

Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa has 5-year yugas compared to the 4.32 million years Mahāyuga system of Sūrya Siddhānta.

Oak and Bhaty have taken the liberty of adding “near Northern celestial point (NCP) and near Southern celestial point (SCP)” in the translation, which is not there in the verses.

It can be seen that Vega had a declination of 86° 14′ in 12,000 BCE, so it was the North Pole Star then. However, the declination of Agastya (Canopus) was -78° 14′, so it was NOT the South Pole Star by any stretch of imagination. It is nearly 12° or 24 full moon diameters away from SCP and calling it South Pole Star is simply absurd.

Pytheas in ca. 320 BC described the celestial pole as devoid of stars.

So enthralled are the proponents of fantastic high chronology about Agastya (Canopus) being the South Pole Star in 12,000 BCE that they don’t ask themselves the very basic question: can South Pole Star be observed from anywhere in India?

If one has read Indian astronomy texts carefully, it would have been obvious that Indian astronomers were describing NCP and SCP which are theoretical points and not North Pole Star and South Pole star, which are actual stars.

...the obliquity was 23.62° in 580 CE and the editors of Sūrya Siddhānta could either have rounded it to 24° or the measurements at that time were not accurate enough and the astronomers of that time measured the obliquity to be 24°.

Oak and Bhaty present a date for Sūrya Siddhānta that goes far beyond the accepted date of not only Sūrya Siddhānta but the beginning of human civilization itself. Oak and Bhaty need to give exact reference in Sūrya Siddhānta about the instrument used to measure obliquity and not just any instrument that was used for other purpose. Oak and Bhaty also need to give exact reference in Sūrya Siddhānta where the method to use this instrument for measuring obliquity is given. I am willing to be enlightened by Oak and Bhaty as I have not found mention of any sophisticated instrument to measure obliquity in Sūrya Siddhānta. I believe that the obliquity was measured by the simplest of instruments, a gnomon (Śaṅku), which is basically a vertically placed straight rod.

The key point is that seasons are not determined by how close the sun is to earth at a given point instead seasons are determined by the earth’s tilt towards the sun. Even more important point is that we know that but the authors of Sūrya Siddhānta didn’t. Instead of recognizing the error made by authors/editors of Sūrya Siddhānta, Oak and Bhaty use the erroneous observation to claim a date of 12,000 BCE for Sūrya Siddhānta when sun was nearer to earth during summer compared to today when sun is nearer to earth during winter.

It is easy to show that the statement of Sūrya Siddhānta is based on erroneous reasoning rather than actual measurement of sun’s distance from earth. Earth’s orbit is nearly circular. According to modern astronomy, at the time of perihelion, distance is 91,402,500 miles (147,098,070 km) and at the time of aphelion, distance is 94,509,100 miles (152,097,700 km). The difference is only 3.4 %. Were the astronomers of that time able to make measurements to this accuracy?

No, it was noted for the moon by Hipparchus, and for the sun by Ptolemy.

Complex interaction of Greek and Indian astronomy is "incorrectly or not understood" by those transmitting even the pre-Ptolemaic versions.


I did not find anything that would say anyone saw a supernova in Auriga. There is a better chance that at some point in time, it became recognized as a seasonal rain omen, as a matter of fact it does look to be the most important thing in the Korku Sky Art. When we switch to written records, no one is really sure what a "rasi" even is; for an individual star called "Brahmahrdaya", this would make sense long before any traditions made a personal name out of the term for "prayer, mantra". It would have made sense at the beginning of Rg Veda, as far back as the language would have been intelligible.



Hiranyagarbha must be a personal name, since the Sage's name is Hiranyagarbha Prajapati, which are the first and last lines of the hymn. If "daksa" in the middle is not a name, it is still in the right place, since Prajapati must act primarily through Daksha.



Goat Head is most likely Daksha, Horse Head or Hayasiras is most likely Dadhyan called "the first" in VII.44.1.


Pusan (pusti or nutrition) has an unusual solar attribute:


Among his other duties, he conducts the dead on the far-off path of their fathers...the conductor on journeys and on the way to the next world...


The Twelve Adityas may have Pushan followed by Hiranyagarbha in Surya Namaskar, which ultimately hails him as Narayana.



To the extent possible, I would say Buddhist Yogacara is identical:


Hiranyagarbha is the closest explanation of Brahma in the Rg Veda.

The beginning of another forum discussion asserts this to be True.


Ashwins earn the praise of Daksha in:


VIII.86.1


And they pass the Madhu or Honey Doctrine of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad to Dadhyan, son of Atharvan, in I.116, 117, and 119.

Varuna often has the epithets raja and daksha, Indra only raja.

Yajur Veda on Honey and Dadhyan quotes I.90, comments IV.39.6, X.17.11, V.1.4 and V.6.6. Also Dirghatamas in I.162 and 163. Indu and Daksha are the wings of Suparna the Golden Bird.



Hiranyagarbha is commented as Uksha in X.31.8:


the creator: ukṣa = liṭ, the bull, the sprinkler of seed, i.e., the creator of people, hiraṇyagarbha; extremely subtle, in the form of wind, consisting of the liṅga (i.e., the subtle body that accompanies the soul in its migration, not being destroyed at death, when the outer gross body is destroyed) entering the waters supports heaven and earth; before his horses bear it to the sun: i.e., before creation; the creator took upon himself a bodily form, before creating other forms


I.89.3:


Dakṣa is a Prajāpati, able to make the world (he is also the creator, Hiraṇyagarbha, diffused among breathing or living creatures as breath or life; prāṇo vai dakṣaḥ, dakṣa is verily breath (Taittirīya Saṃhitā: 2.5.2.4)




He is in the fourth or Astral plane, Kama Loka, over the three lower worlds in Savitr Gayatri:

Hiranyagarba or First born is called as Mahat and he exists in Mahat-Loka. Hiranyagarba is also called as Karya Brahman or Satya Brahman. He is called as first born because from the Unmanifested Prakriti, it is Hiranyagarbha who is born first. And from him all the subtle and gross universes are born. Hence, Hiranyagarba/Satya Brahman is described in Brihdaranyaka Upanishad as having the 3 Vyahritis-Bhu, Bhuva and Svah as his Limbs. Further, the Brihdaranyaka Upanishad and Isa Upanishad Identifies Satya Brahman/Hiranyagara as the “Purusha/Person” who is in the Surya Mandal, who exists as the Solar Deity i.e. Surya/Pushan.

The Word “Dhimahi” may mean “Meditate” or “To Attain”. Both are same, as Isha Upanishad explains, one attains Hiranyagarba by performing Devata Upasana (Meditation) of the Hiranyagarba who exists as the Sun.

Hence, a person who wishes to travel the Devayana-Northern Path after death and attain Hiranyagarbha, is worshiping the Hiranyagarbha who exists as the Savitr-the Solar Deity and requesting the Solar deity to direct his Mind i.e. lead his Subtle body towards Hiranyagarbha/Mahat.

So, the use of 3 Vyahritis explain beyond doubt that the Gayatri Mantra is not just a prayer to the Physical Sun, but instead a prayer to Hiranyagarba/Satya Brahman who manifests as the Sun in the Gross Universe and in the right eye in an Individual’s Gross body, who further exists as the Intuition/Divine Light behind every thoughts and hence, guide a person to shed the Limitations of the gross and subtle bodies and attain Him (i.e. Attain Hiranyagarba).

Above him are the three unmanifest, formless worlds, such as Akasha or Prakriti, or the waters of chaos or the deep.



The various levels and the simple fact of this *not* being merely thanks for the physical world are shown in comments on Isavasya Upanishad:

He who knows these two, the Unmanifested and the Destruction (Hiranyagarbha), together, attains immortality through the Unmanifested by crossing death through Destruction.

The practice of two namely Hiranyagarbha upāsana and prakr̥ti upāsana leads one to cross the ocean of samsāra i.e he crosses all types of limitations.

The face of Truth (Brahman in the solar orb) is concealed by a golden vessel. Do thou, O Sun, open it so as to be seen by me who am by nature truthful (or, am the performer of rightful duties).

In this verse the prayer offered is “Oh! Lord may you remove the lid of the golden vessel that is obstructing my journey through the Solar disc to Brahma Lokha as I have followed the path of truth”. The implied meaning is to clear the way for realization of Truth.

pūṣannēkarṣē yama sūrya prājāpatya
vyūha raśmīn samūha tējaḥ
yattē rūpaṃ kalyāṇatamaṃ tattē paśyāmi
yō’sāvasau puruṣaḥ sō’hamasmi ॥ ॥16॥

pusan = Complete one; ekarse = Supreme Knowable, also present in the sage Ekarsi; yama = Controller of all; surya = a goal or objective for (even) the deities, also present in Surya (god of the sun); prajapatya = as being specially obtained by Prajapati or Brahma; vyuha = extend

O thou who art the nourisher, the solitary traveller, the controller, the acirer, the son of prajāpati, do remove thy rays, do gather up the dazzle. I shall behold by thy grace that form of thine which is most benign. I am that very Person that is yonder (in the Sun).


The seeker further imagines that the Sun God representing the totality of Universe and himself, are one and the same.

The seeker prays that the individual life force represented by prāṇa referred to in this verse as Vāyu merge into total life force referred to here as Anilam.

Let my subtle body merge with the total subtle body and let my physical body be burnt to ashes. He is addressing his own mind not to remember anything other than the upāsana that he has been practicing.

IVC nexus:





Called by the person who took this, "possibly" a tiger. If so maybe it has a human face:

[shaberon]

Non-Auriga




We posted a link suggesting the "double axe" or "double crescent" was the constellation Auriga, when surrounded by animals representing the neighbor constellations.

I am thinking this is one of the weakest arguments that could possibly be made.

It is not difficult to take *any* kind of image and super-pose it over four or five stars and say you have a match.

Until I can figure out how to post that one, you will have to look in the pdfs. However, although it may be rare, I found an isolated view of the thing:







a)A procession of four men holding up stands topped by various things including a ‘unicorn’ bull. Terracotta tablet M-490 (HR 1443) from Mohenjo-daro; b) Terracotta tablet M-491 (HR 1546) from Mohenjo-daro; c) a unique tablet H-196 (262) from Harappa.


Parpola from his Bull and Lion paper:

They show four men, apparently
kneeling (as in Harappan scenes of presenting an
offering) and holding up poles topped by different
things. In the centre is an image of the ‘unicorn’ bull
(though the horn is not visible, the identity is clear from
other features). The poles at either end, especially that
in front, resemble the ‘offering stand’ usually placed in
front of the unicorn on many Indus seals. Indeed, one
unique tablet from Harappa shows this very ‘offering
stand’ being held up by a man standing besides, tiny in
relation to the stand (Figure 6c). The pole immediately
in front of the bull looks like having some sort of flag
or pennant.

Regarding the Metallurgical view, he says:

Kalyanaraman’s hypotheses make little
sense to me, but his tireless search of the internet for
possible links with the Indus Civilization has produced
much interesting raw material that can be used without
regard to his idiosyncratic views.

I would say it makes sense, but, not as the totality or single meaning.

Kalyanaraman has additional attribution on a page that lost its pictures:


h196B is Pict-91 (Mahadevan) m0490At m0490B Mohenjodaro Tablet showing Meluhha combined standard of three standards carried in a procession, comparable to Tablet m0491.




Parpola's Concordance refers to this seal three times with the script (corresponding material is *above* the H-196 title).


At first:

I agree with Asko Parpola that the motif of ‘unicorn bull’ was perhaps adopted by the Harappans from Mesopotamia, where it was represented on seals from the Late Uruk times (c. 3400-3100 BCE onwards).


And then on a page referring to ancient iron production in Nagaland, Assam:


I submit that there is little evidence to suggest that the young bull shown on Indus Script Corpora is an import from Mari or Ancient Near East.


Oh.

Not sure.

Individually and the script:












Obviously, this is not really Auriga, it is the Object:









which has been called a "Soma filter", whereas he suggests:


kamatamu 'portable gold furnace' (Telugu)

sāṅgaḍa 'joined lathe, portable furnace'


Parpola around p.31 Beginnings of Astronomy suggests the lower half is the base of a gnomon, i. e., fig. 12 is an actual object which resembles part of the picture.

It is mentioned in Bhaskar's Zoomorphism (2021) p.17:

H-196 B reemphasises the monumentality with the cult object towering above
and dwarfing the human underneath.



and he attaches the singular example of sex:


On a Chanhudaro seal, C-76, a bison is depicted in an intercourse with a woman..., the penetration is
clearly evident, and the woman wears the type of head dress
of a single horn that is familiar to us from the scene of the
divine adoration in M-1186+similar.


which is drawn more like a Three Branch Crown on the Harrapan site as a Gaur:


...the bull is about to take a female goddess in an act that might be seen as sexual violence, and yet the clear appearrance of her open, exposed genitals tells that she is a willing partner in the deed."

Later, Possehl quotes Mackay's reading of the seal: "We are led to wonder whether the omnipresent 'bull,' whether unicorn, bison or zebu, may not be the symbolic representation of the Heaven Father, and just as the deity with the plant sprout emerging from head or genitals may not be Mother Earth."









So, part of the interpretation is by the horns, it may be a "young bull" because they are small, or, it may be a bison, distinguished from a buffalo.

Now, you do not expect sex to be necessary for smelting metals, but you might expect it to be fairly common. But there is not much that portrays romance or couples, etc., and of course this was originally thought of as a trained rape like the Romans used.

My first reaction is that it is zoomorphic, i. e., the animal is not literal, but the transformation of the bull-headed male, to show him as pure virility, a man with bull prowess. This may be shown in the script. The "U" with a phallic object inside it has been taken as "sex", much like inverting the combined Alpha--Omega symbol.

Similarly, the Object changes, notably from a squarish upper half to a rounded one.

Apparently in one of the Contest seals:


A female deity is shown in one of the Harappan seal with a tree issuing out of her womb and two rampant tigers standing as guards on either side.


and note the possible Birth of a Tree in this script:





Naga Ganesan 2007 says it is a Gharial--Varuna:

Indus ritual seals show the important myth of the goddess of the tigers mating with the gharial god (Figures 24 and 25). Even though J. Marshall misidentif ied in it some "plant sprout", it is actually the Gharial deity coupling with the Earth mother. This is associated with the creation mythology in the Indus valley. ... The mother goddess in Figure 24 has legs wide apart and her hands are shown in the same fashion as the proto-siva seal . At her left side are shown a pair of rampant tigers (cf . Figure 10 also) and these are regarded by Marshall as two genii, animal ministrants of the deity.
the earth mother (some times represented as tigers) couples with the sky god represented as the long-snouted gharial ... Figure 25 (a) is "Drawing of seal representing female in intercourse with a phallic crocodile, c 2000 BC, stone, from Harappa" ...
The creation myth of the gharial god and earth goddess is further explained by the presence of sexual scenes in amulets (M-489). In the terracotta amulet (Figure 26), one side shows a human couple mating and on the other side, the gharial deity from the sky above is shown watching the earth below just as the gharial is shown above the buffalo versus goddess battle scene (Figure 19). The earth mother's tiger leads in the row of wild animals, and after it, leopard, rhinoceros and elephant follow.

This is also true that the seals have "Felids", not always Tigers because there is always a chance of a Leopard.

Strangely, the Rhinoceros seems to be associated with things other than what it actually does, eat grass.

The figure with two tigers is too blotchy to appreciate; link to original pdf.

Page 37 of Dilmun Seals has one of those Hydras and also a sexual scene that takes another look. The odd looking thing is expressed by illustrating the refurbished details, which would make it look like she is raising her head and there are locks of hair sticking out. If this is physically possible, it means she is standing on one foot and doing a full split so her other foot is in heaven.

Seals showing women in a similar posture have a long
tradition going back into the third millennium BC in Elam, at
both Susa and Anshan (Amiet 1986).


I am not sure if anyone has asked why the strange multi-headed thing fits the Mehrgarh Wheel and/or the common Wheel Glyph. Or if the curved "double axe" design is The Object associated to multiple animals.

Dilmun appears to accumulate more of the late IVC material and probably kept trading with India possibly through the 1500s. If we say that India's links with the west were shattered around the 600s, then, you do find a mix of Indian and Arab DNA showing up in Swahili and Madagascar regions.



As usual, little was ever said about possibly IVC sexuality until perhaps Fereira 2019:


a yogic, horned figure on what is known as seal 420



which is "Pasupati", said to be ithyphallic.

A lot of what he says is consideration of Chinese Daoist influence, and a synopsis of later Indian literature. We know what is in the written realm, such as:

For instance, the
aśvamedha requires a woman to have sexual intercourse with a horse, and the Jaiminīya
Brāhmaṇa, Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad and Chandogya Upaniṣad state that sexual intercourse and
the ejaculation of semen are “symbolically equivalent to the Vedic sacrifice.”

It's like the one above was probably not really with a bull.

Theriomorphic means beastly attributes are featured on people in a fluid way, partial to total.

There is a consideration of the stem "vrs-" in the terms for bull and semen, and at the same time there are differences between Zebu, Gau, the young, and other species, and in Sanskrit the term "Uksa" appears to carry significance.

There is a tension in the article between retention of semen to conserve yogic power, and, ejaculation for fertility.

It might be a most basic form of birth control by telling males they do not need to ejaculate except for the intentional purpose of trying to have a child.


He says:

Finally, Indus Valley art depicts sexual intercourse, too, and Asko Parpola mentions this
in his book, Deciphering the Indus Script. On a “three-faced terracotta amulet from MohenjoDaro . . . One of its motifs . . . actually seems to depict sexual intercourse between a human
couple: a woman bends forward in front of a standing ithyphallic man.”

He also presents in his book a
picture of an impression of a stamp seal from Baghdad with Indus script. Here, a bull is mating
with a cow, thus categorizing the bull a sexual creature. Additionally, on a seal from
Chanhujo-Daro, an Indus Valley site, a bull is shown pursuing sexual intercourse with a human
woman. This is perhaps relatable to the Vrātya mahāvrata day ritual, where the beating of the
drum is likened to the bull’s penis penetrating the goddess, Vāc—the bull is sexualized.
Therefore, a conclusion can be drawn: the Indus Valley bull was connected to sexuality and
copulation, perhaps it was even considered to be a cosmic principle, being the consort of the cow
and, in some cases, the partner of a human female.

These are areas he thinks may be relevant to the seals:

Ṛgveda IX.6.6

In hymn twenty-nine of maṇḍala one, the pressing of Soma is sexualized,
When the pressing stone with its broad bottom becomes erect in order to press, you,
Indra, will keep gulping down the mortar-pressed (soma drops). When the pair of
pressing boards are formed like two buttocks, you, Indra, will keep gulping down the
mortar-drops (soma drops). When the woman puts her best into thrusting back and forth,
you, Indra, will keep gulping down the mortar-pressed (soma drops).

Lopāmudrā, asks her husband, Agastya, to make love to her.

sexual
intercourse in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad is equal to the Soma sacrifice.
Her vulva is the sacrificial ground; her pubic hair is the sacred grass; her labia majora are
the Soma-press; and her labia minora are the fire blazing at the centre. A man who
engages in sexual intercourse with this knowledge obtains as great a world as a man who
performs a Soma sacrifice, and he appropriates to himself the merits of the women with
whom he has sex.

I would say yes, in my understanding, Agni Homa has this multiple meaning.


A main part of Ganesan's thesis is Samyoga H-180:


Gharial god and Tiger goddess

Divine Couple in Ancient Indian Astronomy from Binjor to Adichanallur: Makara Viṭaṅkar & Kolli/Koṟṟavai

Gharial is shown wearing the horns of bison bulls (Bos gaurus) which form the cultural equivalent for the wild buffalo of the Paśupati seal. Rhinoceros, elephant and tiger are also shown.

In the H-180 tablet, the Makara is shown with its head down just as the Pole star is described as śiṃśumāra maṇḍala in later Indian astronomy texts. Gharial was considered an aspect/representative of the horned Paśupati deity (M-304) and it is often portrayed as a “Master of Animals” in a variety of mass-produced moulds and seals. Gharial is shown wearing the horns of bison bulls (Bos gaurus) or buffalo (M-1395). Significantly, the same kind of animals adorn the sides of Paśupati/Mṛgapati seal: tiger, elephant, rhinoceros and bison/buffalo. In the Gharial as Paśupati/Mṛgapati seals, the head of the tiger is turned backwards in a mode of attention, and there is an acacia tree standing near it.






Of the simplistic gharial over deer:


4700 years old amulet with the gharial and blackbuck, symbols of the Pole star and the Goddess from Pre-Harappan 4MSR site near Binjor, Rajasthan.

In this seal from Harappan site, named 4MSR, the 4600 years of Indian astronomy is evident: Rohiṇī (star Aldebaran) for proto-Durgā represented by her antelope, and pole star (then, star Thuban) represented by his gharial.

(Thuban was the Pole Star from 3942 BCE to 1793 BCE...Thuban was closest to the pole in 2830 BCE, coming closest to the north celestial pole out of all the other pole stars...900 years after its closest approach, was just 5° off the pole. However, Thuban was among the faintest pole stars. Thuban was preceded by Edasich (Iota Draconis) or Tau Herculis, and succeeded by the brighter Kochab (Beta Ursae Minoris), one of the stars of the Little Dipper, and the fainter Kappa Draconis.)

Iyengar attempts to blend Dolphin, Delphinius, Makara with Gangetic Sisumara:

BRAHMANDA, VISHNU & OTHER PURANAS describe Dhruva as a visible star at the end of a constellation with 14 stars known as Shishumara that is an animal figure like Gharial/Porpoise/Whale. In some places Dhruva is said to be fixed but in several places he is said to be moving.

Kasyapa (a star as per the Br. P, alsocalled Prajâpati)


In other words, e. g. Maitri Upanishad realized the Pole Star or Thuban had moved and was now "circling".




Ganesan goes on to the Bronze Axes and has a decent picture of the weird one, claiming it is a crocodile head rather than a boar, and the embossed creature is not a unicorn but a composite.



In IVC, female figures in three dimensional ceramics are made with a hairstyle
strung together like bulbs, and faces resembling birds. The bird-like female
"contesting" tigers...

In IVC,
a filter is represented in hundreds of seals in front of animals such as unicorn.
Its name perhaps was varuni...


In pdf is a more complete version which has the other sex scene, which is more or less in a zoo under the gharial, on p. 18.


For the Gharial, Hindus regard it as the vehicle of the river deity Gaṅgā. Fossil gharial remains excavated in the Sivalik Hills of Haryana and Himachal Pradesh are dated to between the Pliocene and the Early Pleistocene. It was common up to the 20th century and is now critically endangered. A captive male gharial was observed to show an interest in hatchlings and was allowed by the female to carry hatchlings on his back. In Hindu mythology, the gharial is the vehicle of the river deity Gaṅgā and of the wind and sea deity Varuna. Literally together with the Gangetic Dolphin, it defines an ecosystem whose identifying members are going extinct. The Sign Dolphin--or--Crocodile may make sense.


Parpola covers the etymology:


On account of its long and narrow snout (called a
rostrum), the South Asian river dolphin (Platanista
gangetica, Lebeck/Roxburgh 1801) (Figure 6) is
conflated with the gharial in some vernacular names.


"Gharial" is Hindi, and unlikely to be the Sanskrit form:


Bihari Nakar, Bahsoolia nakar; the male is called 'Ghadiala' and the female 'Thantiana' in Odia; Assamese
and Bengali ghãṛiyāl,

Sanskrit ghaṇṭika- m. 'gavial', Sanskrit kumbhīra, Sanskrit nakra-

Sanskrit śiśumāra-, śiṃśumāra- 'dolphin' and 'crocodile', Rigveda 1,116,18

śiśūla- m. 'dolphin' (Rigveda
10,78,6), śuśulūka- m. 'a demonic creature'
(Rigveda 7,104,22)

Ganesan adds Tamil Itankar which Parpola did not understand.

Only the ambiguous one is in the Rg Veda; "nakra" is in later Vedas.


Does this connect them?

In the Rigvedic hymn
1,24, which is ascribed to Śunaḥśepa, there seems
to be a reference to the pole star and its connection
with the god Varuṇa: in verse 7, Varuṇa is said to
hold a heavenly banyan tree up in the sky.



Parpola discusses a few gharial seals, but, he is too far into script-decoding to do the obvious thing, which, one of the first things said in the pictorial view is to ignore the scripts.

Bhaskar splits the Zoo and shows side A in Felid hypostasis (with Gharial), side B with the sex is Goat/Compound Goat, and the seal is a "prism" so it makes a third panel with another Gharial. The first one has a Fish, and the last is with Fowl and different animals.



Moreover:

87 seal-impressions are purely zoomorphic and pure zoomorphism is at its most eloquent in M-489, a prism seal
impression with 13 zoomorphisms on its three sides. It is the
most complete representation of the faunal range chosen for
Indus glyptic design and reproduction.


The pictures are not very good and I haven't found this elsewhere (not all three panels).

Fortunately for the subject prism seal, John Huntington has put something together and it is Fish Gharial and a Boat with a pair of Birds.

What he is really doing is making enhanced images for most of the basics, coming to the idea that "human head on a stool" is a pujari offering dish. Maybe it is a gharial snout bulb. It is a specifically male feature of sexual maturity, Ghara.

There is not much information, but it is a very good look at some of the main things.

The Samyoga has the same language on both sides, which is something like:

Water Carrier, Three Prong Branch, Base of Object, Sex, unknown, Bee Hive.


An inverted Gharial perhaps is putting its tail at the north pole, or celestial north.



UNESCO notes an unusual grave treasure:


an
antimony rod


but reduces H-180 to a Birth Scene:

The seal bears an inscription
of six characters not yet deciphered. On one side two genii are standing, on the other a
male is standing with a cutting instrument in his right hand. Before him is a seated lady
with her hands raised up and hair dishevelled in distraught mood. The top scene apparently
shows the same female upside down with something emerging from her female organ –
obviously a representation of childbirth.



Well, if you can't see it that good and have little idea how it works, that may be true.

Huntington, Zoomorphism, and Samyoga are some decent organizations of the material, and the latter two sound like better guides than many.


I think it is mystical, in the last scene man is transformed to beast, woman is yanked out of her "contest" and inverted.

It may be talking about a personal sexual initiation while it simultaneously has two astrological meanings, one agricultural/seasonal, the other spiritual and metaphysical.

It could still have a mundane meaning to outsiders, i. e. if I just tell somebody, well, this comes from the Gotra of Rishi Bharadwaj, they will not have the slightest inkling about Soma. I'm not sure why there couldn't be guilds or clans also subsumed by the symbols.


If you look in Huntington's pictures, you can see the effect Ganesan says about Girl in the air:

In 1937 also, Dr. E. Mackay repeats that M-312 bovid is a buffalo. The horns are much like the Toda buffalos in the Nilgiri mountains of Tamil Nadu.

Observe that the horns of the buffalo do not seem attached to the animal head in his battle scene with proto-Durga (M-312). In historic Indian art, the most famous battle scene of Durga vs. buffalo is at Mamallapuram (7th century, Pallava) near Chennai. The buffalo horns little away from their head (M-312) can be compared with the hands dangling which are displayed at a little distance from the thighs in Indus seals showing gods in "yogic" posture.

The buffalo in M-312 is in combat with a little girl wearing a frock and single braid of hair (ēka-vēṇī). While all in the war scene are men, except there is the little girl being tossed up high in the air by the buffalo. The Proto-Koṟṟavai fighting the water buffalo, in M-312 and also in a seal discovered in Banawali are quite important. Banawali seal has all girls in fight with the buffalo. Wearing bangles...

Acacia (khadira) tree is particularly important for KoRRavai of the forest, as the famous Vanadurga temple is in the village, khadirA-mangalam in Thanjavur district. Rajaraja Cholan I who led naval expeditions against Ceylon, Maldives and Srivijaya kings in Southeast Asia was an ardent bhakta of Katiraa-maGkalam vanadurga and his sword is placed on the idol during worship there. KatiragAmam, a Murukan (s/o KoRRavai in sangam texts) temple in the dense forests of Sri Lanka is also named after the acacia tree.

Comparatively, the Haryana girls seal is also posted. The Centaur, or, really, Sphinx is also shown, which we may doubt is a war-goddess in the same way he doubts this may be the bull-baiting sport of Crete. That looks like a hierophantic gating to me. The Three Prong Branch is between.


Interestingly, with cleaning up, the "yoga peoples'" hands are seen floating above their knees.

Here are a few floating hands images.

Notice that "Pashupati" has a wide, fan-like crown--and so here we may also find a yogini with similar horns but a Three Branch Crown, unmistakeable by her long pigtail; breasts are not apparent but she has an hourglass waist. Others such as the one on a Hoofed Throne therefor are questionably male. Those are the same ones as at the previous link. A cruder version shows it under an Arch. One can puzzle over whether the phallus is a tassel attached to clothing, or, the curved loins are an artistic expression of the soles of her feet; a quick look at 3D "dancing girl" and how small her breasts are, you could not really draw them. She is either twelve, or, these people are wiry.




The Goat Centaur transformation starts with two goats facing a tree, and then has some unidentifiable flying thing, before what looks like a couple and finally a goat hybrid.


There are other kinds:


Mohenjodaro seals M 300 and 1177 have a mythical complex animal portrayed with a human head with horns, an elephant proboscis, Body of a Zebu Bull and a serpentine tail.


Note Akkadian copy that has small flying "Sooran".

Post is a bit too elaborate but also suggests a Brahmari--Bees sign (a double bee).

Again, we cannot accurately figure out IVC if spammed with later or foreign information. Most other countries don't have tigers, why would they have input to a tiger-centric ethos. The Zoological idea where he starts linking several related seals is how it might be revealed. Words like "demon" are useless, if Woman "attacks" Reversed Horned Tiger, she may not be "attacking a demon", but perhaps taming a natural force. That is why the term "Contest" is appropriate. We don't know if we are seeing "yoga" because it may look like perfectly natural postures that a person does with no knowledge or technique--yes it seems like some kind of knowledge is being inculcated...but what? DS tried to prove reincarnation from the Vedas, however Rg Veda does not mention Moksha or rebirth--it may have "the next world" and "immortality", but even there we do not really find explicit Yoga concepts. Well, there is of course Soma Offering, which, through Atharva Veda, we might determine is symbolic, but it mostly pertains to well-being in this world. Nothing about escaping the cycle of reincarnation.

Did IVC really hold yoga secrets which are not even mentioned in Sanskrit until after 1,000 B. C. E.?


It definitely looks like they were subscribing to a standard. The collection of "one-offs" is relatively small. To me it looks like they responded to a Sumerian or Elamite art, which, itself, may have been responding to Indian trade. If we say Afghans weren't the ones doing any sailing, and, it is their lapis lazuli which was spread by Meluhha east and west, then we have to think of it as the main influence, because it is necessary for the main myths there or in Egypt.

In a similar way, I think there was great foreknowledge before the first book of Rg Veda was written. Some amount of mythology was in place and it became used and transmitted in a particular manner, Arya Vrata. What happened was probably very nearly the eastern half of people fleeing Mesopotamia in the early 2100s B. C. E. and overrunning Agade. Rakhigarhi, ca. 2600-1900 BCE., is about 5% excavated.



Now, the other portion of the standard fades away, from Flora and Fauna:

That the tiger is not mentioned even once in the whole of the Rigveda certainly does call for an explanation, but non-familiarity with the animal cannot be that explanation under any circumstance. Possible explanations areTalageri 2000) a. There was some kind of a ritual taboo on the mention of the tiger during the period of composition of the Rigvedic hymns, OR b. The word siMha (lion) which occurs in the Rigveda in the following references, stood for both the lion as well as the tiger (according to American archaeologist Mark Kenoyer, it probably stood for the tiger rather than for the lion).

Sayana says "hides like a lion (in a cave)", i. e. he comments in something commonly known, whereas otherwise you would have to say where a tiger hides (?).


This is not Exodus, and, it is not quite Armageddon yet. Mostly, everyone moved:



According to Possehl, after 1900 BCE the number of sites in today's India increased from 218 to 853.

At sites such as Bhagwanpura (in Haryana), archaeological excavations have discovered an overlap between the final phase of Late Harappan pottery and the earliest phase of Painted Grey Ware pottery, the latter being associated with the Vedic culture and dating from around 1200 BCE. The Cemetery H culture may be the manifestation of the Late Harappan over a large area in the region of Punjab, Haryana and western Uttar Pradesh, and the Ochre Coloured Pottery culture its successor. Pirak [Balochistan], which thrived continuously from 1800 BCE to the time of the invasion of Alexander the Great in 325 BCE.

Cemetery H (1900-1300) (Punjab, Haryana, Western Uttar Pradesh) is the main dispute between "Aryan Invasion" and "emerging Vedic culture". There is the beginning of cremation, and the cropping of rice. It does not look like "they" destroyed anyone else's cities; it does look like international trade broke down (for north India).

Some of the designs painted on the Cemetery H funerary urns have been interpreted through the lens of Vedic mythology: for instance, peacocks with hollow bodies and a small human form inside, which has been interpreted as the souls of the dead.

Excavation at Anuradhapura in Sri Lanka has unearthed PGW pottery from the 'Basal early historic' period of Anuradhapura (600 BC-500 BCE) showing connections with North India.





This is among the first things we said about a distinct Arya culture according to The Diplomat:

This represents a pattern where people adapted to changing monsoon patterns–something they chose not to do during previous droughts and climatic shifts. Perhaps, this time around, rice, introduced from East Asia, had become a widespread alternative crop. Thus, during the period between 1,900-1,300 BCE, Harappans “shifted their crop patterns from the large-grained cereals like wheat and barley… to drought-resistant species of small millets and rice in the later part of declining monsoon and thereby changed their subsistence strategy.”

The result was the transformation of society into a more widely dispersed, clan-centered culture. It should be noted that other rice-based cultures like China were also largely agrarian and rural while mercantile cities and city-states played a larger role in the wheat-producing regions of the Middle East and Mediterranean. This is because millet and rice “generally have much lower yield” than wheat. Thus, “the organized large storage system of mature Harappan period was abandoned giving rise to smaller more individual household based crop processing and storage system.”

By the time the next strata of literature emerges in India during the Vedic period, this form of social structure is evident. The famous Indus Valley Civilization thus never collapsed; its large structures were only expedient buildings reflecting a wheat-based culture. Once crop patterns shifted, most cities lost their purposes and were abandoned, but most people didn’t die out. Instead, they fanned out, south and east, shifting the demographics of the subcontinent toward the Gangetic Valley.

So, we want to keep the context they were probably aware of Rimush and what happened to Akkadia. Concerning the expansion of the Aryas from Flora and Fauna:


It will be seen that, like the rivers of Afghanistan, the sheep of Afghanistan are completely missing in the three Oldest Books (6,3,7) and make their first appearance in the Rigveda only in Book 4, which represents the westernmost thrust of Indo-Aryan expansion during the period of Sudās' descendants Sahadeva and Somaka and the battle "beyond the Sarayu" (IV.30.18) in Afghanistan. That the sheep in the Rigveda are indeed the sheep of Afghanistan is confirmed by the reference in I.126.7, which directly calls them "gandhārīṇām avikā": the sheep of Gandhara...ice and snow appear in the Rigveda only in the New Books.



So we think this is happening by or around this ca. 1900 pivot.

When there are ships large enough to cross the Indian Ocean, there would be less importance for a far western port.

While this western edge is melting down, one could say India gains an internal thoroughfare north to south.

Rg Veda pays no attention to the Gharial and Tiger. In the Late Period, these are replaced on seals by Bactrian Eagle.

It does seem conversant with the Bull and Goat.


One could revert to argument and claim that Varuna is a direct equivalent of Gharial. One might say a constellation approximating Draco was called dolphin-or-crocodile. This would lose accuracy prior to the Rg Veda. And if Varuna's Tree is really constant, it points to the abstract Celestial Pole, not a reference object. You might have to remove the Gharial and replace it with nothing.

It definitely does not substitute Lion for Tiger in any significant way--noise and hiding. Nothing special about cats in the whole thing that I know of. Not sure we can prove the Tiger is Prthvi, who recalls moreso the Boar at Bhimbetka. The Tree may be a different story. The Pipal Leaf and Zebu are on pre-seal Nausharo pottery, along with female figurines having a Tika mark. This is the first or oldest thing I can find that specifically gathers such symbols, and this is a relatively new settlement replacing Mehrgarh ca. 2,500 B. C. E.

It is possible the Tiger is a conscious IVC selection because of Lions used by other countries. It may be the Bull is an "executive", i. e. an international figure, having various sub-cults. That makes sense because it is established as international wealth.


In current descriptions of Pleiades--Krttika, one is given any explanations of "cutters" besides the literal.

According to the Atharva Veda, Krittika is the first nakshatra reflecting the stars
rising at the spring vernal equinox during the height of the Indus Valley civilization
(2720-1760 BCE.).


In other words, AV contains language that possibly pre-dates the others. This is roughly the same time period that the Spica-aligned temple of Aswan would have also found that a "fixed star" slipped out of timing.

And so the Rg Veda appears to have Nausharo symbolism even though it is not really from there. Most likely it is picking up on the fact that the Pipal was already sacred, rather than copying off their artwork. There was probably a sacred Bull everywhere, and a sacred Pipal all across India/IVC, to which the Veda adds specifically Agni Homa.


When wondering if the Veda mixes with Shakti:


Aditi has been referred to as Parama Devata.

Sinivali,Raakaa, Kuhu are the names of the Vedic goddesses.



As well as Devi Suktam, there are Shachi and at least two dozen goddesses, here with the important part:

“Shachi”, an old Sanskrit term meaning “Shakti” and denoting the same, is lauded in the Rig Veda (I.112.8) as being the power given to the twin Ashwin gods (who possess mystic powers) to allow them to heal the crippled and help the blind see again. Shakti here is hence invoked as a feminine and yet positive term, in relation to Yogic powers or siddhis again.

In fact, these Ashwin gods are also invoked in another passage, which reads:

"Bring into creation, my tireless meditations and thoughts that ask for wealth, Shining Ashwins. Grant us high spirits in battle, and with your Shaktis, Lords of Shakti, assist us." (Rig Veda.VII.67.5)

The terms used here are “shaktam” and “shachipati” which mean “Power / force” and “Lords of power and force”, similar again to Shaktiman of later times, as a term for a Yogi possessing yogic powers. Yet again here however, the term “Shachi” is used in a feminine tense.

answering its own call:

Shri She who is Auspicious (VI.63.5-6)

This occurs as the wealth of the Ashwin Gods here, and in a feminine tone, along with the Goddess Ushas. It hence refers to her as the Goddess Lakshmi.

There is already the postulate that the gods are ineffective without shakti or saci. I cannot verify their quotes about Bhairavi or Ghora, but there is this very interesting command from the Sage of Saci X.159:


my husband must conform to my will,as I am victorious over my rivals

Free from rivals, the destructress of rivals

“Triumphant, I conquered these my rivals so that I might rule this hero and his people.”


The phrase for "rule this hero":


vīrasya virājāni


using the latter as a verb:


“shine; excel; govern; dominate; glitter; light.”



Sanskrit VII.67 is a Madhu Doctrine and says what looks like "mental offering" to me:


manasā yajñiyena


typically translates "sri" as "glory":


ketur uṣasaḥ purastāc chriye

the banner (of the sun) is perceived rising with the glory on the east of the dawn

Eastward is seen the Banner of the Morning, the Banner born to give Heaven's Daughter glory.


The line with Sacipati is an Om mantra.



From Sanskrit VI.63:


adhi śriye duhitā sūryasya



He asks for various boons:


May the two straight-going, light-moving, (mares) of Puraya be mine


who has a similar connotation with AV goddess Ekastaka:


...to bestow the desired cattle and progeny to the worshipper.

kāmanāmasmākaṃ pūraya prati gṛhṇāhi no haviḥ / Ibid., 3.10.13


other requests:


may the hundred cows belonging to Sumīḷha

may the dressed viands prepared by Peruka be for me

may Ṣaṇḍa bestow upon me ten handsome golden chariots

May Purupanthā, Nāsatyās, grant to him who praises you, hundreds and thousands of horses...may the rākṣasas be slain.


who are just "a man, king" with no further stories and no particular meaning except possibly Sanda--Bull.

Being the first recorded Sage, would we think he is literally asking for some 100-year-old meat cutlets? Perhaps; but evidently there were legends widely in place he must have used as the basis. No explanation for this, while *some* of the archaic material appears elaborated in Book Ten.

In a sentimental way, I feel that modern toy stuffed animals are similar to the old seals.

IVC was clearly Dharmic, that is, organized and safe, contrasted to the adharmic wilds that it also draws. When we look at stuffed animals, it is all about caring and sharing. At a root emotional level, this must be important. Besides household pets, it is easy to make the same bond with livestock. And I think the point of a lion or tiger is that of course, it can be protective or aggressive, but that is not its whole nature, it also is quite peaceful and adores its group. The least social animal is rhinoceros, and even so, they are not exactly hateful. Takes a lot of grass to feed something that big, so, it is best they spread out.

Therefor I would say it is unlikely that a tiger centaur is a "war goddess". I don't think they are telling that kind of story which is probably in the more nationalistic Mesopotamian seals. This would be definitely changed by the Vedas. Of course, they stem from retaliation rather than arbitrary conquest, so the main subject is not supremacy at war; that is like an added benefit to a continuing Dharmic plan of well-being and happiness.

We should continue to question far-reaching astronomical guesses; the ones that are post-3,000 observations may be good. We can tell that people did not do a great job at recording observable events like supernovae, comets, or even the eruption of Thera, and so they may have been really confused when the pole and equinox stars "moved".


This set shows them unusually arising from the ground (?)

[shaberon]

Varuna and Soma; Sunhashepa, Sama Veda



Our forum has certain strengths versus most websites. We can combine numerous sources. And we can give it a rolling update. So I post things even if they come from a diametrically-opposed view. Whatever survives the maelstrom is more reliable, I believe, than arbitrary declarations.

So, it is in just the past few years that we have gotten a decent look at Sanskrit Buddhism and the Rg Veda, similar to the academicians and published authors, except we can immediately draw from them and compare.

Among the subjects that frequently suggest themselves, we found a few references in the previous post. Right now we will take a closer look at what these are:


Varuna as a possible North Pole in I.24, and sexual references in IX.6 and I.29.


We found the equivalency of Hiranyagarbha and Adhi Deva, but then we also found there is such a thing as Adhi Sri, and:


Aditi has been referred to as Parama Devata.



So the reference to I.29 turned out to be incorrect. What is curious is that this area is a block from Sunhashepa, who more than once calls Varuna the son of Aditi. And so I figured the reference might be a minor location error. So I scanned the neighboring hymns. This is truly a pantheon or part of one.

Varuna occupies a good portion of it. While flipping through, here are a few things I noticed starting around I.25.13:


bibhrad drāpiṃ hiraṇyayaṃ varuṇo vasta nirṇijam | pari spaśo ni ṣedire ||


“Varuṇa clothes his well-nourished (person n), wearing golden armour, whence the (reflected) rays are spread around.”


Sayana says:

Bibhad drāpim hiraṇyayam = suvarṇamayam kavacam, armour or mail made of gold; an apparent allusion to Varuṇa as an image


In this case we would argue there is no armor, he has re-interpreted cape and clothing. Varuna drapes himself in Hiranya, reflecting the solar rays.

He gives or provides paths to birds, ships at sea, and heavenly objects.

This implies that local space is the same element or substance as cosmic space.

In the technical sense, those are forces of gravity and buoyancy, and probably centripetal.




He is the enemy of those who have negated Dhruva:


na yaṃ dipsanti dipsavo na druhvāṇo janānām | na devam abhimātayaḥ ||

“A divine (being), whom enemies dare not to offend; nor the oppressors of mankind, nor the iniquitous, (venture to displease).”


But that is not quite the right word; some branches of AV IV.29 instead have drahana or durhrna, and drhyani in the text. More reminiscent of the "Druhyus", with the stem Druh, to bear malice or hatred, seek to hurt, harm. AV is a "Freedom from Sin" Mitravaruna hymn, i. e., probably asking us to be free of that.

It suggests the "Druhyus" are not a region or country, but, "that kind of person".




We might question whether this is a preposition:


darśaṃ ratham adhi kṣami |

I have beheld his chariot upon earth


perhaps:

I have beheld his chariot, the Adhi Ksami


And it turns out he obliterates the argument there is no Vedic Moksha--because that is what he is, it is just written differently:



ud uttamam mumugdhi no vi pāśam madhyamaṃ cṛta | avādhamāni jīvase ||

“Loose us from the upper bonds, untie the centre and the lower, that we may live.”



He is not alone:


ā no barhī riśādaso varuṇo mitro aryamā | sīdantu manuṣo yathā ||


“Let Varuṇa, Mitra and Āryaman, sit down upon our sacred grass, as they did at the sacrifice of Manu.”

Āryaman is an Āditya presiding over twilight;

Manuṣaḥ = Manu, the Prajāpati



interestingly:


imam ū ṣu tvam asmākaṃ saniṃ gāyatraṃ navyāṃsam | agne deveṣu pra vocaḥ ||

“Agni, announce to the gods this our offering, and these our newest hymns.”



One might re-think this due to the mention of Parama:


ā no bhaja parameṣv ā vājeṣu madhyameṣu | śikṣā vasvo antamasya ||

“Procure for us the food that is in heaven and mid-air, and grant us the wealth that is on earth.”

The text uses the expressions: in the supreme, in the middle and of the end



and Varuna appears to be the Citrabhanu of the Indus River:


citrabhāno sindhor


which again is likely Sun or a quality of the Chariot of Savitr.


referring to Agni:


jarābodha tad viviḍḍhi viśe-viśe yajñiyāya | stomaṃ rudrāya dṛśīkam ||

“Jarābodha, enter into the oblation for the completion of the sacrifice that benefits all mankind; the worshipper offers agreeable laudation to the terrible (Agni).”

Jarābodha = he who is awakened (bodha) by praise (jarā); rudra is equated with the fierce or cruel Agni: krurāya Agnaye



in keeping with "new hymns":


“Veneration to the great gods, veneration to the lesser, veneration to the young, veneration to the old we worship (all) the gods as well as we are able; may I not omit the praise of the elder divinities.”


And then, in fact, we run into the sexualized hymn.

Okay. It is by the same author who was positioned as depicting a stellar Varuna that might make him equal to the "Dolphin-or-Crocodile" sign. He has just revealed to us that new things are sometimes revealed.

So those two hymns are fit for closer examination.


The author's personal story from Ramayana is attached to a Prajapati hymn I.24 whose lines begin "kasya" and "ko":



This hymn is uttered by Śunahśepas when bound to the Yūpa, or stake, as the puruṣaḥ-paśuḥ, the man-animal (or victim), as the Bhāgavata terms him: "Of whom" (kasya) may also be rendered; of Brahmā or Prajāpati (also called ka): as ko ha vai nāma prajāpatiḥ (Aitareya Brāhmaṇa 3.21; 7.26)


“Of whom, or of which divinity of the immortals, shall we invoke the auspicious name? who will give us to the great Aditi that I may again behold my father and my mother.”


This hymn changes targets a few times:


“Let us invoke the auspicious name of Agni, the first divinity of the immortals, that he may give us to the great Aditi, and that I may behold again my father and my mother.”


Next:

deva savitar īśānaṃ


Then he gets to, what I would argue, is the summit of Tapas or Heat Yoga in terms as used by our Asanga school:


We are assiduous in attaining the summit of affluence

mūrdhānaṃ rāya

bhaga-bhaktasya

Which Bhaga hath dealt out to us.


Then:

Savitā refers Śunahśepas to Varuṇa


What is happening is that he is demonstrating Agni as the Hotr or Priest, the intercessory, bridge of mind and matter, who carries offerings and mantras to Indra or anyone. There seems to be the idea that "all men worshipped Indra", in the sense that not all of them honor other deities. What seems to be present is honor of One Life and also many deities or pantheism. Like Agni, Varuna has just been said to be working in three levels, which we call the lower planes or Bhu Bhuvar Svar.

You can't live in Outer Space or on the Sun, so we have a series of step-down transformers running things like a plasma fractal, to sculpt our specialized environment made of certain limitations to things that would otherwise annihilate us. After greeting Agni and other deities, the hymn gets to Varuna:

abudhne rājā varuṇo vanasyordhvaṃ stūpaṃ dadate pūtadakṣaḥ | nīcīnāḥ sthur upari budhna eṣām asme antar nihitāḥ ketavaḥ syuḥ ||


“The regal Varuṇa, of pure vigour (abiding) in the baseless (firmament), sustains on high a heap of light, the rays (of which) are pointed downwards, while their base is above; may they become concentrated in us as the sources of existence.”

pūtadakṣaḥ

“purify; filter; blow; purify; purge; sift.”

He sustains a Heap--Stupa of an Upper Tree--Vana Urdhva, which is filtering/purifying in the manner of Daksa.

I don't see where he is getting "light" from. Alternately:


Varuna, King, of hallowed might, sustaineth erect the Tree's stem in the baseless region.
Its rays, whose root is high above, stream downward. Deep may they sink within us, and be hidden.

uruṃ hi rājā varuṇaś cakāra sūryāya panthām anvetavā u | apade pādā pratidhātave 'kar utāpavaktā hṛdayāvidhaś cit ||


“The regal Varuṇa verily made with the path of the sun, (by which) to travel on his daily course; a path to traverse in pathless (space); may he be the repeller of every afflicter of the heart.”

Cf. sun's course north and south of the equator


rājan bhiṣájaḥ

keep afar from us Nirṛti

Again a form of "moksha":


cid enaḥ pra mumugdhy asmat ||

liberate us from whatever sin we may have committed

amī ya ṛkṣā nihitāsa uccā naktaṃ dadṛśre kuha cid diveyuḥ | adabdhāni varuṇasya vratāni vicākaśac candramā naktam eti ||


“These constellations placed on high, which are visible by night, and go elsewhere by day, are the undisturbed holy acts of Varuṇa (and by his command) the moon moves resplendent by night.”

Rksa or "bear" is a star in [Rāmāyaṇa] 5, 73, 57, then it is the Pleiades, the Great Bear, the Nakshatras, a constellation or a star. These hymns, of course, are Riks. The only other times it is in RV appears as a king's name.

Kuha With cid wherever, somewhere.

kuha ind. ([from] 1. ku), where? [Ṛg-veda]


The "bears" might be like stars because you don't see him when he hibernates. There is no verb; during the day, they are "elsewhere" than visible. No one would think they move out of the way. You might think they are changing state. Actually it is just a timer saying you are the one changing state.

It makes sense if referring to all stars or constellations, however the weight is towards:


[plural] the seven stars, the Pleiades, the seven Ṛṣis, [Ṛg-veda i, 24, 10; Śatapatha-brāhmaṇa ii; Taittirīya-āraṇyaka]

The seven stars called Pleiades; afterwards the seven Ṛiṣis


This is very weird. In Brahmanda Purana, there is:


Rksa, leader of monkeys.


In Ramayana, it is Jambavan.


Brahmanda Purana section on Vrsnis:

Jāmbavān, the king of bears, killed that lion. He took the divine jewel and entered his cave.

Govinda:


He searched the excellent mountains Ṛkṣavān and Vindhya and became tired. In the end the noble-minded lord saw Prasena who had been killed along with his horse. But he did not get the jewel there (on his person). Thereafter, the lion was seen killed by a bear not far from the body of Prasena. This had been indicated by the footprints of the bear. The Scion of the family of Yadu (i.e. lord Kṛṣṇa) traced the foot-prints to the cave of a bear.


Krsna is interpolated. The section also has "Sharabha", which will be argued as Shiva and/or more important than Vishnu, and most other Puranas veer one way or another and you have sectarianism. Here:

Viraja, the Prajāpati, handed over (in marriage his gold-bedecked daughter endowed with many good qualities to him (i.e. Ṛkṣa)


and there is the incarnation of Vayu as Hanuman.

Govinda is looking for the Syamantaka of Prasenajit:


A jewel presented by the Sun god [Vivasvan] to Satrājita (s.v.) to enable him to see his form distinctly without being blinded by his hallow; had the quality of yielding eight loads of gold every day.


It is an interesting story, but nothing is said about the jewel regarding its name, appearance, etc.; it is credited with making Parjanya (Rain) function properly and to ward off disease. Govinda fights Jambavan for twenty-eight days, suggestive of Nakshatras.


This Varuna section in RV is the only time "rksa" is used in this slippery manner and it gets complicated quick.

tat tvā yāmi brahmaṇā vandamānas tad ā śāste yajamāno havirbhiḥ | aheḻamāno varuṇeha bodhy uruśaṃsa mā na āyuḥ pra moṣīḥ ||


“Praising you with (devout) prayer, I implore you for that (life) which the instrumental tutor of the sacrifice solicits with oblations; Varuṇa, undisdainful, bestow a thought upon us; much-lauded, take not away our existence.”

Varuna has become the object of the verb, brahma.

He is asked to bestow Bodhi and preserve Ayu.

In the most basic terms, Buddhism does this, yes, of course. Sounds like the practice of mantra in its entirety.



Back to liberating work:

tad in naktaṃ tad divā mahyam āhus tad ayaṃ keto hṛda ā vi caṣṭe | śunaḥśepo yam ahvad gṛbhītaḥ so asmān rājā varuṇo mumoktu ||

“This (your praise) they repeat to me by night and by day; this knowledge speaks to my heart; may he whom the fettered Śunahśepas has invoked, may the regal Varuṇa set us free.”

He appears to refer to his own story that appears in later literature:

śunaḥśepo hy ahvad gṛbhītas triṣv ādityaṃ drupadeṣu baddhaḥ | avainaṃ rājā varuṇaḥ sasṛjyād vidvām̐ adabdho vi mumoktu pāśān ||

“Śunahśepas, seized and bound to the three-footed tree, has invoked the son of Aditi; may the regal Varuṇa, wise and irresistible, liberate him; may he let loose his bonds.”


Triṣu drupadeṣu: druḥ (a tree) is a reference to the tripod-like sacrificial post

This is what he is trying to do:

ud uttamaṃ varuṇa pāśam asmad avādhamaṃ vi madhyamaṃ śrathāya | athā vayam āditya vrate tavānāgaso aditaye syāma ||

“Varuṇa, loosen for me the upper, the middle, the lower band; so, son of Aditi, shall we, through faultlessness in the worship, become freed from siṇ”

The ending is:


anāgasaḥ syāma, may we be sinless

tavānāgaso “blameless; impeccant.”

syāma “be; exist; become; originate; happen; result; be; dwell; be born; stay; be; equal; exist; transform.


which is unusual, syama is not usually a verb and that is not a common term for "sin".


So if for example someone just focused on the work of Sunhashepa, it would require multiple deities and his self-explanation that what looks like human sacrifice is redemption through Varuna. It is something that is already on the scale of the whole Mithraic Mysteries, or Serapis or Orpheus maybe.





It seemed there might be a sexually graphic symbolism done by this same author. Took an extra minute to find this because the number was off. While he is telling us what it's really like to be a human sacrifice, Indra Yajna Soma I.28 begins with an Om mantra:

yatra grāvā pṛthubudhna ūrdhvo bhavati sotave | ulūkhalasutānām aved v indra jalgulaḥ ||

“Indra, as the broad-based stone is raised to express the Soma juice, recognize and partake of the effusion of the mortar.”

Stone = stone pestle used to bruise soma;

Adhiṣavaṇya = two shallow plates or pātra to receive soma

Second part of the line repeats as a refrain several times.

The term for Mortar "ulukhala" is commonly used for Rice.

The Pestle is:


Grāvā (ग्रावा) is the name of a stone used for “grinding the Soma creeper” according to the Ṛgveda I.83.6

originally 2 were used, [Ṛg-veda ii, 39, 1]; later on 4


With Atharva Veda Prana Sarasvati:


6.3.2 Sarasvatī, along with the deities, viz. Dyāvāpṛthivī, Grāva, Soma and Agni is prayed for protection.


In some cases Grava is a stone shaped like a flat disk resembling a washer with a pit hole.


Typically it is more like this from ca. 1920:


In this photo print, we are transported back in time to Chennai (formerly known as Madras), India, circa 1920. The image showcases a traditional food preparation technique that has been passed down through generations - pounding rice using a large pestle and mortar. A group of Indian women can be seen engrossed in their task, rhythmically pounding the grains with precision and skill. Their synchronized movements create a mesmerizing visual spectacle as they effortlessly grind the rice into fine flour or powdered form. The sheer size of the pestle and mortar is awe-inspiring, emphasizing the physical strength required for this labor-intensive process. It serves as a testament to the dedication these women have towards preserving their cultural heritage. This photograph not only captures an essential aspect of Indian cuisine but also highlights the importance of communal work in traditional societies. The women's camaraderie is evident as they collaborate harmoniously, ensuring that every grain is pounded to perfection. As we admire this snapshot frozen in time, it reminds us of the rich tapestry of traditions woven into everyday life across different cultures. This image serves as a poignant reminder that even seemingly mundane tasks hold immense value when viewed through the lens of history and culture.








He is talking about this rice equipment, a thing resembling The Object, while implying something similar makes Soma.

It either is simultaneously a sexual symbol, or how do we take this:

yatra dvāv iva jaghanādhiṣavaṇyā kṛtā | ulūkhalasutānām aved v indra jalgulaḥ ||

“Indra, (in the rite) in which the two platters for containing the juice, as (broad as a woman's) hips, are employed, recognize and partake of the effusion of the mortar.”

Overlooking the refrain, we have only a few words, which do not say all those implications. The corresponding explanation is:


jaghanādhiṣavaṇyā

“hip; buttock; buttocks; vulva; vagina.”



but the correct grammar does not need the whole phrase:

jaghanā | adhi-savanyā |


Where, like broad hips, to hold the juice the platters of the press are laid,


Because you have this:


Jaghana (जघन):—[jaghanam] Pelvis. (1)The external genitals.

jaghana (जघन).—m S The hypogastric and pubic region (esp. of a female).

1) The hip and the lions, the buttocks


Linguistically:


...the Grantha syllables sa and nya mark the change of
the original dental sibilant and nasal (s and n ) to their correspondent retroflex
sounds...


so:

Savana (सवन).—[su-sū vā-lyuṭ]

1) Extracting the Soma juice or drinking it.


the act of pressing out the Soma-juice (performed at the three periods of the day; cf. tri-ṣavaṇa; prātaḥ-.,mādhyaṃdinaand tṛtīya-s)

Bearing children, bringing forth young.


So all the line has in it:


yatra dvāv iva

in which the two


jaghana, most likely female buttocks


are "pressed against" on/in the direction of/facing, the act of pressing Soma.


It doesn't really say anything else.

yatra nāry apacyavam upacyavaṃ ca śikṣate | ulūkhalasutānām aved v indra jalgulaḥ ||

“Indra, (in the rite) in which the housewife repeats egress from and ingress into (the sacrificial chamber), recognize and partake of the effusion of the mortar.”

There where the woman marks and learns the pestle's constant rise and fall

"Wife" would be an overly-polite term here, although it is, of course, a possibility.

Siksate "imitates".

Cyavana (च्यवन).—

1) Moving motion.


Woman imitates the Mortar's upwards and downwards motions.

yatra manthāṃ vibadhnate raśmīn yamitavā iva | ulūkhalasutānām aved v indra jalgulaḥ ||

“When they bind the churning-staff (with a cord), like reins to restrain (a horse), Indra, recognize and partake of the effusion of the mortar.”

yac cid dhi tvaṃ gṛhe-gṛha ulūkhalaka yujyase | iha dyumattamaṃ vada jayatām iva dundubhiḥ ||

“If indeed, O Mortar, you are present in every house, give forth (in this rite) a lusty sound, like the drum of a victorious host.”

It is the divinities presiding over the mortar and pestle, not the implement themselves, are addressed

uta sma te vanaspate vāto vi vāty agram it | atho indrāya pātave sunu somam ulūkhala ||

“Lord of the forest, as the wind gently blows before you, so do thou, O Mortar, prepare the Soma juice for the beverage of Indra.”

Vanaspati = a large tree; metonymy for the mortar

āyajī vājasātamā tā hy uccā vijarbhṛtaḥ | harī ivāndhāṃsi bapsatā ||

“Implements of sacrifice, bestowers of food, loud-sounding, sport like the horses of Indra champing the grain.”

tā no adya vanaspatī ṛṣvāv ṛṣvebhiḥ sotṛbhiḥ | indrāya madhumat sutam ||

“Do you two forest lords, of pleasing form, prepare with agreeable libations our sweet (Soma) juices for Indra.”

Metonymy for the mortar and pestle

adyá vanaspatī


Almost always male:


“bright golden hued Vanaspati, with its thousand branches.” (Ṛgveda 9.1.5)

AV 3.18:

Vanaspati Against a rival wife: with a plan


Goddess Osadhaya is Herbs:


Herbs are the wives of Soma. Vanaspati is the king of all the herbs.


Buddhist:


Vanaspati (वनस्पति).—name of a ‘gandharva maid’: Kāraṇḍavvūha 4.17.


So it may be feminized in an implied way because the two are male and female organs.

uc chiṣṭaṃ camvor bhara somam pavitra ā sṛja | ni dhehi gor adhi tvaci ||

“Bring the remains of the Soma juice upon the platters, sprinkle it upon the blades of kuśa grass and place the remainder upon the cow-hide.”

The hymn is to Hariścandra, a ministering priest or a divinity so named. The remains contained in pātra or platters are to be placed upon a cart (śakaṭasya upari) and having brought it away, cast it upon the pavitra (two or three blades of kuśa grass serving as a kind of filter). Or, through a strainer made of goat's hair (tvaci)

Hariścandra (हरिश्चन्द्र):—Son of Triśaṅku, or, Satyavrata (son of Tribandhana). He had no son, but after promising to perform a sacrifice for Varuṇa, he begot a son named Rohita. A second son was bought for him by Rohita, named Śunaḥśepha, whom was to be used for the sacrifice.

a samrāṭ by performing Rājasūya

Concerning him there was a battle between Vasiṣṭha and Viśvāmitra in the disguise of birds for many years. Issueless, and advised by Nārada, he prayed to Varuṇa for a son, promising to offer him in sacrifice to the deity. The son was Rohita.




The Object appears to be topped by a mesh like a sail or umbrella, which can stretch to a tight square, or, be lowered to the floppy crescent shape.

Is that part a filter?


"Purifying" seems to be "Filtering" in Pavamana Soma IX.6. It has multiple terms for straining or filtering:



flow with your exhilarating stream into the woollen sieve.

vāreṣv

pavitra

punānā



This may happen:


yam atyam iva vājinam mṛjanti yoṣaṇo daśa | vane krīḻantam atyavim ||

“That which sporting in the wood and spurting beyond the sieve, the ten sisters press, as (men rub down) a strong horse.”

The ten sisters: the ten fingers, as in RV 9.001.07


The power is really Kavya or Poetry:


ātmā yajñasya raṃhyā suṣvāṇaḥ pavate sutaḥ | pratnaṃ ni pāti kāvyam ||

“The soul of the sacrifice, the effused Soma, flows; with speed bringing blessings, and maintains his ancient seer-hood.”


finishing:


evā punāna indrayur madam madiṣṭha vītaye | guhā cid dadhiṣe giraḥ ||

“Most exciting (Soma), devoted to Indra, as you pour forth the exhilarating juice for his drinking, you emit sounds in the secret (hall of sacrifice).”

You emit sounds: uparavas = round sounding holes, which are dug in the ground, and over which the two boards, used for pressing the Soma, are plural ced. These holes are said to deepen the sound of the stones with which the boards and Soma are beaten, during crushing; guhā cid dadhiṣe giraḥ = you store praises in secret

or:

So pouring forth, as Indra's Friend, strong drink, best Gladdener! for the feast,
Thou, even in secret, storest hymns.





For the graphic content in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Sugiki considers it part of Buddhist Homa.

Section VI.4 sounds a bit like the sexual position on the seals:


Then he spreads apart her thighs, saying: 'Spread yourselves apart, heaven and earth!'



And the translation there gives "skin" rather than "labia majora" for "Soma press".

We can find the original when it is simply left untranslated:


3. Tasya vedir upastho, lomani barhis, karmadhishavane, samiddho madhyatas, tau mushkau. Sa yavan ha vai vagapeyena yagamanasya loko bhavati tavan asya loko bhavati ya evam vidvan adhopahasam karaty a sa strinam sukritam vrinkte 'tha ya idam avidvan adhopahasam karaty asya striyah sukritam vringate.


or:


tasyā vedirupasthaḥ, lomāni barhiḥ, carmādhiṣavaṇe—samiddho madhyataḥ—tau muṣkau; sa yāvānha vai vājapeyena yajamānasya loko bhavati, tāvānasya loko bhavati ya evaṃ vidvānadhopahāsaṃ carati; āsāṃ strīṇāṃ sukṛtaṃ vṛṅkte; atha ya idamavidvānadhopahāsaṃ carati, āsya striyaḥ sukṛtaṃ vṛñjate || 3 ||


Oh, there is an Adhi Savana.

Loma is body hair distinguished from Kesha. I do not think it is "her skin", but, the object that is skin of a soma presser:


Carman (चर्मन्), denoting ‘ hide ’ in general, is a common expression from the Rigveda onwards. The oxhide was turned to many uses, such as the manufacture of bowstrings, slings, and reins (see Go). It was especially often employed to place above the boards on which the Soma was pressed with the stones. It was possibly also used for making skin bags.

Samidh, fuel wood.


The skin part of the soma presser, and, the fuel in the middle of it, are her:


Muska, plural (little mice):


[dual] the vulva

([dual number]) pudenda muliebria, [Atharva-veda]

pudenda muliebria pl (plural only). (anatomy, euphemistic) Vagina; female genitals.

Same in Chakrasamvara.

It is possible "jaghana" above, perhaps being "two", is "lips" as it seems to be here.


Upon review, then, a woman's big butt is raised:

grāvā pṛthubudhna ūrdhvo


to generate the:

Sota, flow.


and her jaghana or mushkau, vagina lips, are the soma press.




The Upanishad goes on to describe basic birth control:


10. Now, the woman whom one may desire with the thought, 'May she not conceive offspring!'--after inserting the member in her and joining mouth with mouth, he should first inhale, then exhale, and say: 'With power, with semen, I reclaim the semen from you!' Thus she comes to be without seed.

11. Now, the woman whom one may desire with the thought, 'May she conceive!'--after inserting the member in her and joining mouth with mouth, he should first exhale, then inhale, and say: 'With power, with semen, I deposit semen in you!' Thus she becomes pregnant.



This would, of course, suggest The Object is a Soma Press, having something in common with the ordinary Rice Mortar and Pestle.

We have already observed the rice culture is Gangetic, expanded to, and perhaps transitioned out, IVC.


Although Mandala IX is thoroughly about Soma, filtering or purification is a particular topic such as Soma Pavamana Hymns 10-19 on one page.


Posted here, from Kalyanaraman on Soma:


The processes to
which it is subjected are overlaid with the most varied and
chaotic imagery and with mystical fancies often incapable
of certain interpretaion.” (A.A. Macdonell, The Vedic
Mythology, Varanasi, Indological Book House, 1963, p. 104).


The part of Soma which is pressed by Adhvaryu (RV. 8,4) is
the am.s’u (lit. shoot or stalk).

It is the ruddy or tawny shoot which is pressed
into the strainer (RV. 9,92).

pounding is the verb
(RV. 10,85)

purification with the hands
(RV. 9,86)

The stones are placed on the vedi
or altar (RV. 5,31). Ten reins guide the crushing stones
(RV. 10,94); ten fingers yoke the stone (RV. 5,43) and
hence compared with horses (RV. 10,94).
[Rigveda uses the general technique of pressing using
stones, though the process using mortar and pestle is known
(RV. 1.28)

Vritra-killing
and Soma-pressing are one and the same act

The separation of Soma and Vritra
becomes complete with the purified Soma on the one side,
and the crushed lifeless demon on the other.


Atharva veda (AV.IX.6) can be interpreted as providing the
clearest statement on the smelting process of the Soma yaja
which is echoed in later-day alchemical texts:


The grains of rice and barley that are
selected are just filaments of the Soma plant. The pestle
and mortar are really the stones of the Soma press. The
winnowing-basket is the filter, the chaff the Soma dregs,
the water the pressing-gear. Spoon, ladle, fork, stirring
prong are the wooden Soma tubs; the earthen cooking pots
are the mortar-shaped Soma vessels; this earth is just the
black-antelope’s skin...The man who supplies food hath
always pressing stones adjusted, a wet Soma filter, well
prepared religious rites...he who hath this knowledge wins
the luminous spheres.


A
reference to the sacrificial ground with the hollow is
mirrored in the term: r.tasya yoni (RV. IX.64,11,22): the
home of the yajn~a.



He should not need the Upanishad at that point. It just said the Hole in the Ground is the Yoni. He might be thinking backwards.


From his own Mandala IX on one page:


This is the only Mandala among the ten mandalas for which the devata, topic, or attribute venerated is Soma Pavamāna. In hundreds of other rcas in other mandalas, Soma, Indu, amśu are invoked.

In fact, the entire Ṛgveda, in a nutshell, is Soma allegory, a pilgrim’s progress, a worshipper’s narrative, to purchase, process, adore Soma, a veritable Itihāsa of Soma or wealth-creation by Bhāratam Janam...


Here is a page of IX with Sanskrit.


The suggestion is that "soma" is "to press" from the root "su", which I am familiar with as happiness and well-being, i. e. su-astika = swastika and so on. From Brihaspati VII.97:


su, 3 cl. 5. P. A. sunoti, sunute, to press out, extract (esp. the juice
from the Soma plant for libations)

the soma-juices
(yátra sávanāni)

arka- du. the 2
halves of the Soma-press ib. x, 96,10; sg. the goddess of domestic
affairs ib. iv,55,3


And from the fluidic cross-references in Amarakosha:


sutasoma sutá-soma, (Bv.) m. Soma-presser, ii. 12, 6.


aṃśu m. Soma plant, -juice; ray; stalk.


adhiṣavaṇa a. suitable for pressing; n. Soma-press.

antaryāma m. Soma draught while suppressing the breath; -yâmín, m. the inner guide

camū f. bottom of the Soma press


Here is part of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad including "storehouse of impressions" or Buddhist Alaya Vijnana.


From a Germanic view:



In the hymns of Rigveda, the grain-grinding handmill is never mentioned;
however, without doubt it was well known and used. In its place, there often occurs
another handmill: the soma-mill, the soma press that was the tool necessary for the
offering and between whose stones the juice of the soma-stems was extracted. The
Rigveda hymns are, with extremely few exceptions, liturgical hymns sung at offerings
and the numerous paraphrases, "impressions," and pictures that occur in them, contain
elements that are collected from the epic mythology to apply in liturgical meaning. There
the epic world-mill that grinds nourishing meal and generates the holy fire naturally
becomes a liturgical world-mill that extracts the world-nourishing soma and the fiery,
intoxicating juice dwelling within it. The epic mill's handle, manthâ, becomes the
liturgical mill's handle, and the former‘s "roaring" stones become the latter's. The
liturgical world-mill in its turn becomes the model for the small soma-pressing tool that is
required for the daily offering conducted at home.

In Rigveda hymn X, 94, we find a direct account of the world-mill itself — one
that even Bergaigne, without knowing the Germanic myth about this mill, found, since he
points out that the description pertains to an enormous "celestial" mill.25 The mill's stones
are mountains (verse 1): they grind a branch that comes from the world-tree (some
cosmogonic being? v. 3). The earth roars when the stones grind against one another (v.
4). In one of them is a place (the mill-eye?) fixed for the water that whirls dancing down
into it

He who sets the stones in motion is Savitar (Rigv. X, 175, 1, 4).



And in a discussion about this question:


Unicorns in the Indus civilization - did Indo-Iranian speakers take over the Soma-cult from the BMAC culture?

Whereas Rig-Vedic descriptions of (its effects) are still closely modeled on the physical appearance, pressing and purification of the (ephedra) plant, the later Hindu Soma doctrine (siddhanta) identifies the 'milk' (in which Banarasi bhang is dissolved to be ingested) of the temperate plant, after it was no longer accessible in India, with an exalted state of Consciousness deriving from and inducing a transmutation of bodily fluids. The sexual connotations and practices of this transmutation may be likewise traced back to the IVC steles which depict a bull copulating with a (woman attired like a) 'priestess' in what must have been a hieros gamos. The 'ithyphallic' unicorn-bull, with its horn pointing towards the Soma-press, would thus express an inner ecstatic state of the initiate that could also be induced by sacred sex. The gazelle-like traits could be seen as a prefiguration of the Vedic religion where the black deer becomes the representation par excellence of the consecrated (Soma-) dakSita, the theriomorphic form assumed by Prajapati to be pierced by Rudra's arrow at the very moment he was spilling his milky seed into his daughter the ruddy Dawn.

...the process whereby this energy was transmuted and channeled upwards to the brain is best portrayed by the single-horn-on-the-head...

So central is this 'transmutation' principle that it has given its name to the (enjoyment of the) erotic sentiment of Sanskrit theater: zRngaraNa!

...their Soma-cult, as developed in the Rig-Veda, finds its closest parallel in the IVC unicorn seals!


...assume a religio-cultural polarity between the Indus Valley (IVC) and Bactria, with the balance of power shifting from the peaceful urban civilization around 2100-1900 BC to the increasingly dynamic and warlike BMAC culture.

If I understand correctly, the "presser" and the recipe are no longer known. What is used are re-constructions, or educated guesses.

If that was the really important part, we are out of luck.


If it is a symbolic language about powers of nature and human consciousness, we may have a chance.

Looking at translations to English, half of the old scholarship was done with the straight view of showing non-Christian inferiority. Then, they were too bashful to say anything about sex. However, it is a, if not the, subject. They may have intentionally phased out a machine of drug production and tried to replace it with, perhaps, knowledge (Veda). It wouldn't make any sense to have the whole purpose of the material rendered impossible by missing technology.

It is like I don't literally have to husk rice in that big masher which may have to do with the original Pleiades. That does however happen to be the agricultural preference in the corresponding area. Anything that resembles moving a stick in a hole is sexually suggestive; a Bell, for example. This is really simple and works for everyone.

Fortunately, the sex, itself, is not a sin that is trying to be removed.

The line refers to Agas, which is the act rather than the state of mind, e. g. V.III.7:


offence, āgas or aparādha, and sin or wretchedness, enas or pāpa


For the Mundane Egg:


He is Nāga because no Āgas (i.e. sin) abides in him


It doesn't have any specifics, but appears to be the category of trespass, or that which has a victim, whether aggression or something minor.


One deadly sin is that Sunhashepa condemns those who worship Indra with the voice of a Donkey, Gardabha, in I.29.5:


gardabham mṛṇa nuvantam pāpayāmuyā |

Nuvantam-pāpayāmuyā, praising with this speech that is of the nature of abuse

The disagreeable cry of the animal is mentioned in the Atharvaveda, and in allusion to this the term ‘ass’ is applied opprobriously to a singer in the Ṛgveda.



This being a "late" animal found in VIII.56.3 with wooly sheep as gifts.


Used metaphorically in III.53.23 as the dispute between Visvamitra and Vasistha.



In I.34.9, the donkey is also called Rasabha for the triangular chariot of the Aswins. The hymn also mentions:


Three are the solid (wheels) of your abundance-bearing chariot...

The daughter of the sun has ascended your three-wheeled car.

tridhātu


tridhātu pṛthivīm

the triple (couch of) sacred grass upon the earth


“Come, Aśvins, thrice with the seven mother-streams; the three rivers are ready; the triple oblation is prepared; rising above the three worlds, you defend the sun in the sky, who is established for both night and day.”


Sometimes Aswins are counted in the Thirty-three Devas, but here, they bring them:


33 divnities: 8 vasus, 11 rudras, 12 ādityas, prajāpati and vaśaṭkāra


We don't know if it is really a "horse" because the Indian onager is:


...larger than a donkey and is the most horse-like of all the Wild Ass species.

It is one of the fastest of Indian animals, with speeds clocked at about 70 – 80 km. per hour and can easily outrun a jeep.


Although Vasistha is compared to a horse as superior.

Either expression says the onager is the animal that brays. It is not noted for its physical abilities.

It has them:


The ass, known as gardabha or rasabha, is considered inferior to the horse
but, among animals, the best bearer of burdens (bhara-bharitama). It is said to
be dviretas, ‘with double seed’, which suggests its ability to produce offspring
from either a mare or a female ass. It was said to have a great capacity to eat.
Asses were given as gifts (dana), and hence must have been valauble...

Sometimes, the ass (gardabha) and mule (ashvatari)
were used in chariots...


Besides the voice, the animals may have been nearly indistinguishable:

...most horses would've looked not so different from asses or onagers. It took several centuries of selective breeding for the modern swift, strong horses to make their appearance. This did not even happen in the BCE period (or even if it did, it would have been during the 1st millennium BCE).


Haya--Horse is only in New Books a few times in a relatively unremarkable way:


Swift-moving: hayaḥ = horses, gantāraḥ

In Pusan X.26:


aśvahayo

or:

ašva-hayaḥ | rathānām |

the driver of the chariot steeds



Either term just means "move quickly", and, if a donkey can or does more or less do this, then it is shunned or segregated due to its sound, as either of its names means.

Indra is commanded to do this when addressed in the wrong voice:


Mṛṇ (मृण्).—6 P. (mṛṇati) To kill, slay, destroy.


"Papa" can refer to acts of demerit, although it also connotes intent or evil state.


That seems to say you can be an Indra-worshipper or soma-presser and be doing it wrong, again a bit like "Bull" in any myth and Soma produced elsewhere, Agni is trying to steer you in a specific direction.

To be done properly has to be gentle or sweet, Madhu, or perhaps Manju, with respect to the tone of voice.

The fuller explanation is prana, or Udgita in other Vedas:


The udgīta stands for the sacrificial act to be performed by the udgātṛ, the sāmaveda priest, with the udgīta hymns. The devas meditated on the udgīta as the breath in the nostril, but the asuras smote the breath with evil. Then they meditated on udgīta as the speech, the eye, the ear, the mind; but ail these sense organs were smitten with evil by the asuras. Then they meditated on udgīta as prāṇa (vital breath) and the asuras failed to smite it with evil. Therefore prāṇa is superior to all sense-organs.



It is very much like the "single horn", or the Summit, Murdhana.

Saman is the total opposite of coarse speech:


The Sama-Veda, the prayers of which composed in metre, are always sung or chanted: the Ch'handogya Upanishad belongs to this Veda.


Rik (ऋच्, Ṛc) is speech, states the text, and Sāman (सामन्) is breath


Compared to the Rik, it is a continuing thread:

Sama Veda, which is also called Rktantravyakarana

The Rik Tantra belongs to the branch of the Kauthuma.


The ancient Vedic scholars understood by a saman a melody or a chant, which was independent of the words. The melody was more important than the words. The definition found inthe Rig Veda for to distinguish between melody and words is very clear and at the same time a problematic verse for all the people, who want to place the Sama Veda later than the Rig Veda.

So it is a different technique.

You follow the music.

The words might be da-da and a bunch of repeated stuff.

It is more connected to breath, more importantly vital breath, and to the arising of Four-fold Om or the stages of Speech.


Its "branches" were a bit more private and clan-localised than the widespread Rg Veda. Not everybody can do this.

Rg Veda is about some words precisely, words with "pada" or rhythm:


A Mantra may be in verse, with fixed feet and syllables, when it is called Rc, or it may not have any fixity of feet and syllables, which is called Yajus. A Rc that can be sung is called a Saman.


It has around 1,875 verses. All but 75 verses have been taken from the Rigveda.

The largest number of verse come from Books 9 and 8 of the Rig Veda.

Rik Tantra is in the Kauthuma or Tandya school which is the northern branch containing the Chandogya Upanishad, which associates Udgitha--Space--Om. It includes Orissa and Bengal. Adi Shankara, for example, cited Chandogya Upanishad 810 times in his Vedanta Sutra Bhasya, more than any other ancient text.

Sama Veda has central and southern lines that have Kena Upanishad.

Witzel would tell us that studying Rg Veda is sufficient.

One translation was published by Griffith 1895.

GRETIL has the Sanskrit from Pandey 1998.



In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna is Sama Veda. It is Foremost.

The Kauthuma recension starts with Agni and Indra, then a large (119 verses) section for Pavamana Soma, then Aranya which appears to be mixed.

Second part copies Rg Veda, with, they say, 99 originals.

Conversely, it has lost 1,000 Sakhas or branches or recensions according to Patanjali.


The online Sanskrit version counts 1,875 verses which I believe matches the English, although the formats are different, it is navigable.

This is an example of the Samhita format versus Samanized:


Agna ā yāhi vītaye

o gnā i / ā yā hi vā i / tā yā i tā yā i /


O Agni, come to the feast.



To appearances' sake, the Rg Veda begins in one Gotra:


Bharadvaja is the third in the row of the Pravara Rishis (Aangirasa, Barhaspatya, Bharadvaja)

Bharadvaja and his family of students were the traditional poets of king Marutta of the Vedic era

or:


Bharadwaj had 55 students and his entire family of disciples were the traditional poets of King Marutta of the Vedic Era.

Related to the conflict:

Bharadwaj prays that Dasas become Arya. Hence, the possibility for a Dasa to become an Arya compatriot means the Dasas were a cultural population. The Pani chief Brbu is praised by Bharadwaj.

Social identifications of the Dasa have been 'anagnitra', 'kravyad', and 'anasa'. In one passage, a chieftain referred to as "Dasa Balbutha Taruksha" has been noted to have given gifts to Brahmanas. The Rig Veda also praises a Dasa chief for protecting Brahmanas. In such ways, several foreign Dasas built bonds with the Arya communities thereby becoming a part of Indian societies. Hostility in the Avesta between Tuirya (Turks) and Airyā is indicated also in the Farvardin Yasht (10.37-8) but that some like the Tura Fryāna at King Vishtaspa’s court became Ariyā. Vasishtha calls himself a "dasa" and says, "May I serve the god (Varuna) like a dasa, a lord." Further, the Yadu and Turvasa tribes were clearly Arya but are called Dasa. It appears that several Dasa groups could not retain their Arya designation. Indra gets into conflicts involving the Dasyus and strips them of their Arya status and declares, "I have deprived the Dasyus of their appellation of Arya." Manu Smriti further declares the border nations along the northwest of the Subcontinent as either Mlecchas or Arya-speaking Dasyus.

That the Dasas were entering India is seen in Vedic passages, such as Rig Veda 2.11.18 wherein the "Dasyu were left in east while the Arya were enabled to march on."

The Rig Veda also mentions the Turagama as a tribe to the north of King Bharata's empire, while the Turukas were northwest of it and the Tusharanas lived west of the Indus River.

The word 'Dasyu' does not denote a connection to Dasa. It is not a specific ethnicity whereas Dasa actually refers to the Dahae nation. Dasyu is a term that has been applied to "raiders" and any threat of invasion or sedition by default is termed Dasyu.

The ten kingdoms that fought King Sudas in the Dasarajna War were ethnically all distinct from each other, some Arya and others not. They were Paktha, Turvasa, Druyu, Yaksu, Simyu, Matsya, Visanin, Alina, Bhalana and Bhrgu. Regardless of ethnicities, any threat to society is a Dasyu.

However, as we have seen, the Atharvan is a necessary and prior explanatory power that includes the Samans, which, themselves, are a higher development of Riks.


I would guess there were Samans of the Old Books and, with the changes to language, a newer style simply replaced it.

The newer books have more detail and variety, and I might even guess the process had to be intentionally stopped. Can't deal with any more.

Saman tradition is definitely behind Buddhist Sangiti and Caryapada.


Because it is more difficult, presumably, it would be less self-sustaining, and no telling how many such songs have been lost. Does not need to redo the whole Rg Veda. By the time you had a portion, it would be a gigantic musical repertoire.

There are only a few "supreme" epithets:


2 0 0 0407a tato virāḍajāyata virājo adhi pūruṣaḥ

pṛthivyā adhi sānavi

Sanaya (सनय).—a. Ancient, old (Ved.).



or "infinite void" as used in Buddhism:


1 6 2 0707a trirasmai sapta dhenavo duduhrire satyāmāśiraṃ parame vyomani

2 0 0 0301c parameṣṭhī prajāpatirdivi dyāmiva dṛṃhatu

viṣṇoḥ paramaṃ padaṃ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ



Not only is Vishnu personally mentioned, but also in the combination of Agni, Vaisvanara:


1 1 2 0705a mūrdhānaṃ divo aratiṃ pṛthivyā vaiśvānaramṛta ā jātamagnim

1 5 2 1008a pavamāno ajījanaddivaścitraṃ na tanyatum .
1 5 2 1008c jyotirvaiśvānaraṃ bṛhat ..

4 8 2 1901a ṛtāvānaṃ vaiśvānaramṛtasya jyotiṣaspatim



Rudra appears a few times, but, seems to be more of a "result" than an actor, let alone a destructive one:


1 5 1 0506c vājāṃ abhi pavamāna pra gāhase .. 432
1 5 1 0507a ka īṃ vyaktā naraḥ sanīḍā rudrasya maryā atha svaśvāḥ .. 433

4 8 3 1203c rudrā hiraṇyavarttanī juṣāṇā vājinīvasū mādhvī mama śrutaṃ havam ..


Visnu and Hari have about forty instances.


One of them is a copy of RV VIII.1.24-25:


ā tvā sahasram ā śataṃ yuktā rathe hiraṇyaye | brahmayujo haraya indra keśino vahantu somapītaye ||

“May your thousand, your hundred steeds, Indra yoke to your golden chariot, harnessed by prayer, with flowing manes, bring you to drink the Soma.”


ā tvā rathe hiraṇyaye harī mayūraśepyā | śitipṛṣṭhā vahatām madhvo andhaso vivakṣaṇasya pītaye ||

“May your two peacock-tailed, white-backed horses, yoked to your golden chariot, bring you to drink of the sweet praiseworthy libation.”



So neither hari nor brahma is necessarily a personal name.

Find "steed" or "horse" in the above?


I don't, because it is tucked away in the apparent name of Vishnu:


Hari (हरि, “bearing , carrying”)

Hari (हरि).—A particular species of horses. They possess long hairs on the neck and are golden in colour.

a horse, steed ([especially] of Indra), [Ṛg-veda]

horse, [especially] the steeds of Indra (2, but also 20-200)

...in Rigvedic symbolism, it unites the colours of Soma, the Sun, and bay horses under a single term.



It means many other animals and colors in later works, or the sun or its rays, but we want to know the original context before applying any changes to it.

One example is within scripture on AV Sarasvati:


In the Ṛgveda, though, Sarasvatī appears as a river goddess, but, she loses her identity as a river in the Atharvaveda. Because, in all the references, Sāyaṇācārya interprets her as identical to Vāk. In one reference, he clearly mentions that the Sarasvatī, mentioned therein is not other than Vāk and hence, she should not be misunderstood as the river goddess.

She is eulogised as a goddess of lustre along with the deities Agni, Savitṛ and Brahmanaspati (4.4.6).


We understand her, but, no one understands Brahmanaspati, who has been called:


Brihaspati, Vishnu, Candra, Ganapati, Prajna or Pratibha.


The likely candidate is Ganapati:


Gananam tva Ganapati Gum Havamahe (RV 2.23.1)

In the Rig-Veda, the gaņās or hosts of Bŗihaspathi—Brahmaņaspathi are the chants, the riks and the stomas, the words of praise (RV. 4.50.5). They have little to do with the lower vital levels.

Perhaps the first reference to Ganapathi worship occurs in the Gobhila Grhya Sutra, which belongs Sama Veda. It recommends praying to Ganapathi and to Matrikas at the commencement of a ritual, seeking blessings and support for a smooth and successful completion of the ritual process. Gobhila Grhya Sutra is dated around first century AD.

Scholars say, artifacts from excavations in Luristan and Harappa and an old Indo-Greek coin from Hermaeus, present images that remarkably resemble Ganesha.

Although the cited line is an identity:


gaṇā́nāṃ tvā gaṇápatiṃ havāmahe kavíṃ kavīnā́m upamášravastamam
jyeṣṭharā́jam bráhmaṇām brahmaṇas pata ā́ naḥ šṛṇvánn ūtíbhiḥ sīda sā́danam

WE call thee, Lord and Leader of the heavenly hosts, the wise among the wise, the famousest of all,
The King supreme of prayers, O Brahmanaspati: hear us with help; sit down in place of sacrifice.


in the next line, this is identical to Brihaspati.

It does not come up any more.

Later one finds:


Ganapati Atharvashirsha, also known as Ganapati-upanishad, is found in the Atharva-veda. The text is dedicated to Ganesha, the lord of intellect and learning, and asserts that Ganesha is same as the supreme Reality – Brahman. This Upanishad expounds the Tattva – true nature of Ganesha, ways to pray to Him, upasana of Ganesha to be performed and its result, bija-mantra and the mula-mantra “Om gam ganapataye namah,” which has its origin in this text.

Within this Upanishad:

This is called the head of the Atharva Veda


Ganesa vidhya ganaka rishi
Nichrud gayathri chanda, Ganapathi devatha,

Ganaka is the sage for this knowledge of Ganesha,
The metere is Nischad Gayathri and god addressed is Ganapathi,

Itya[i-A]tharvanna-Vaakyam |

This is the word of the Atharvana Rishi



You are the Four Types of Speech (Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari)

Who?

Sage Ganak was Sage Mudgal’s disciple



It's not in the Muktika, itself an Upanishad in Sukla Yajur Veda, it has a traditional list of 108 divided by styles. Maybe someone is being too picky about the title?


AV 25. Ganapati


Nevertheless, it is considered very late (16th century) due to phrases like muladhara chakra:


It is part of the five Atharva Shiras Upanishads, each of which are named after the five main deities or shrines (panchayatanan of the Smarta tradition) of Ganapati, Narayana, Rudra, Surya and Devi.


The "sage" is a minor epithet of Rudra in Lalita Mahatmya:

He should be known as Gaṇaka (one who counts) when accompanied by Anāmā (Nameless one).

Okay. I am not sure there is a "Sage Ganaka", but, Mudgala is the author of X.102:



...ward off, Maghavan, the secret weapon (of our foe), be he Dāsa or Ārya.


who has his own secret weapon, Drughana Indra, probably an axe. Mudgala is a charioteer who recovers cattle.

Rg Veda often has the patronymic, or father's name included, which is:


Bharmyāśva (भर्म्याश्व):—Son of Arka (son of Puruja). He had five sons named Mudgala, Yavīnara, Bṛhadviśva, Kāmpilla and Sañjaya. They where collectively known as the Pañcālas.


This may be where Bhagavata Purana goes wonky, because it portrays Mudgala as the father of a Vedic king:


Father of twins; Divodāsa and Ahalyā.


which, of course, is fine, if you say Divodas II or that it is a namesake. Various Puranas confuse Mudgala's father:

son of Bhadrāśva

son of Bheda

son of Haryaśva


who also figures in the mental progeny of Atreya such as Dattatreya.


So there is an Upanishad in modern language not cross-referenced by any older works, with an author who is a "Mahabharata insertion" or certainly not noted either. And then Mahabharata and particularly Vishnu and Bhagavata Puranas seem to re-work the whole history by confusing the Pancalas.

Mudgala is rarely mentioned outside of that lineage:


Once the King of Cola conducted a Yāga making Mudgala the chief priest. (Chapter 130, Part IV. Padma Purāṇa).


As to how bad it is, Pancala Dynasty has not just Divodas but also Sudas.

This is obviously physically impossible because they start in the first book of the Vedas:



1) Divodāsa (दिवोदास):—[=divo-dāsa] [from divo > div] m. (di) ‘heaven’s slave’, Name of Bharad-vāja (celebrated for his liberality and protected by Indra and the Aśvins, [Ṛg-veda i, 112, 14; 116, 18 etc.]; the son of Vādhry-aśva, [Ṛg-veda vi, 61, 5]

father of Su-dās, [Ṛg-veda vii, 18, 28]

The Rājaṛṣi, son of Badhyaśva and Menaka.*

* Vāyu-purāṇa 99. 201.




Divodas defeats Sambara, which we think led to the Kirat kings of Nepal.


This is remembered later in Book Nine:


...for the sake of the devout Divodāsa (subdued) Śambara, and then that Turvaśa and Yadu.



He is in Sarasvati VI.61:

“She gave to the donor of the oblations, Vadhryaśva, a son Divodāsa endowed with speed, and acquitting the debt (due to gods and progenitors), she who destroyed the churlis niggard, (thinking) only of himself, such are your bounties, Sarasvatī.”


Same name for father of Mudgala.

Note debt cancellation.

In this hymn, Sarasvati is Ghora, she has Seven Sisters and Seven Dhatus.


Talageri might be able to recognize that stuff immediately; I am still trying to get a feel for it. Some of the sifting that has already been done gives more accurate articles such as:


Dharmapedia on Tribes.


Voice of Dharma on Kings, Tribes, Sages.


It doesn't matter much whether Divodasa was around 2,100 B. C. E. or 1,900, there is a little leeway, but once you start placing him as a descendant out of the latest books, and then use that to push Mahabharata to a pre-Vedic time, then we are in a big mess.

Marutta is simply omitted from most lists of Ikshvaku Dynasty.

SB and Maitriyana Upanishad:


Ikshvaku’s brother Dishta’s lineage-King Marutta

Son of Aviksit in Markandeya Purana.


Mahabharata calls him an Ikshvaku working with Samvarta. Alternate version.

Mandhata defeats Marutta of Ushiraviga (source not given).

For Marutta, king of the world:


...his sacrificing priest was Aṅgīras’ son Samvarta, who was Vṛhaspati’s brother


There were other less famous kings of the same name, as Marutta, son of Karandhama and fifth in descent from Yayāti’s son Turvasu...

There was a great quarrel between Vṛhaspati and Samvarta in consequence (ibid., and Vāyu Purāṇa). The Aitareya Brāhmaṇa says Samvarta inaugurated Marutta with the Mahābhiṣeka ceremony, the great inauguration ceremony of Indra, (VIII. iv. 21).



Samvarta is the Sage of X.172.

We will segue' here and go back through Rg Veda.

[shaberon]

Marutta and Bhima; chronology of Rg Veda Books






From Talageri on Battles, the first important one is:

VI.27

1. The Battle of Hariyūpīyā in Haryana at the time of

Sṛñjaya.


The Bharata Pūrus were the sub-tribe who lived in Haryana.

Rigveda in its Old Books (Books 6,3,7,4,2) was a Book of

the Bharata Pūrus, and later, by the time of the New Books

(Books 5,1,8,9,10) it was a book of Pūrus in general.




In other words, there are other Purus living in directions back towards the Ganges.

Part of this we understand, because Ramayana is relatively eastern or Gangetic, and it only knows those Solar Kings who returned from the campaign, which is like a minority point. It is the lineage from Ayodhya which is far more symbolic, and they have a special affiliation with Bharata Purus. Some of them remain, and are therefor unknown to the Ramayana.


It appears correct this first battle is mentioned in VI.27:

In aid of Abhyavartin Cayamana, Indra destroyed the seed of Varasikha.
At Hariyupiya he smote the vanguard of the Vrcivans, and the rear fled frighted.

He, whose two red Steers, seeking goodly pasture, plying their tongues move on' twixt earth and heaven,
Gave Turvasa to Srnjaya, and, to aid him, gave the Vrcivans up to Daivavata.

Two wagon-teams, with damsels, twenty oxen, O Agni, Abhyavartin Cayamana,
The liberal Sovran, giveth me. This guerdon of Prthu's seed is hard to win from others.

Indra's Power seems to be more the subject than the battle itself.

Sayana has no idea who the people or places are.

The more interesting part is that Indra's powers are Indriya and his weapon is Vajra. Also, Bharadwaj makes it present tense, with "we" and a peculiar conjugation of cit:


[Passive voice] aceti and ceti, [Ṛg-veda]


That is a Constantine-esque type of victory sign; something has certainly happened that is worth recording.

The location (Hariyupiya) could be a Pillar of Sunlight, which causes Indra to Rainbow, which is his Bow, which perhaps defeated thousands with arrows--raindrops?


There is Sambar defeated by Divodasa.

Then you go into HP Beas and Sutlej:



Book 3 of the Rigveda (the book of the Viśvāmitras)

describes the commencement of the military activities of

the Bharata Pūru king Sudās, who comes many generations

after Divodāsa.


• 1. Hymn III.33 shows the Bharata Pūrus under Sudās

expanding westwards, crossing the Vipāś and Śutudrī

rivers.


However, specific battles and victories are not mentioned.

It is possible that this failure to achieve concrete results

induced Sudās to replace Viśvāmitra with Vasiṣṭha as his

priest.


The saga continues in Book 7 (the book of the Vasiṣṭhas).

The hymns deal with Sudās’ battles in the east (mainly

around the banks of the river Yamunā) and his Great Battle,

the dāśarājña, in the west on the banks of the river

Paruṣṇī.


It will be noticed that while the enemies on the east are

tribes recognizable as purely Indian even in the post-

Rigvedic scenario or by name, the enemies on the west are

not...


Then the New Books continue into Afghanistan.

His idiosyncrasy is "reversing" AIT and I don't care or it's not my problem how the Albanians got there. He takes off into plotting how these dispersed, unknown kingdoms and tribes turned into an Indo-European migration. I would suggest we shouldn't start off assuming that the vanquished here are the known Parthians.

Many names, even Elam, are exonymic. So the Veda may well be using "outsider's" names for outsiders, or something like Dasa or Dasyu which is merely descriptive.

We just want to look where we are, which is possibly well prior to 1,500 B. C. E., in the growing part of IVC or Harappa which is really Haryana and UP. Particularly, we think Nirmand was established in this mix.


Already in his time the author of the first Riks is talking about a mix of ancient and modern. The Soma and Indra sound of indeterminate age. He is much more of a participant than an inventor.

There is not quite a connection to the Sapta Rishis like in the Puranas. There does seem to be an Indra in the immediate moment. There are multiple Om mantras throughout these first hymns. Right offhand it was not immediately obvious who "we" are.


I don't think the legends bear out in this case.


I cannot find anything about a "King Marutta" in Rg Veda.

He possibly discovered Iron, is related to Mundas, and the escape from Parasurama.


That might make sense in Book Ten.

Kings with their subjects:

Purukutsa is designated as Aikshvako raja,
Marutta as Ayogavo raja, Kraivya as Pancalo raja...



Agni Purana lists "ayogavo" after Pukkasas and similar types. It is a mix of Sudra man and Vaisya woman, or else, actors.

That is, of course, aya/ayo "metal, ore, possibly iron", gava "bull or cow".



RV VI is clear that the author is the son of Brihaspati:


bharadvājo bārhaspatyaḥ

Bharadwaj definitions inform us:

Dīrghatamas is also called Bharadvāja. Dīrghatamas is the son whom Bṛhaspati illegitimately got of Mamatā, his brother’s wife. There was then another legitimate child in the womb of Mamatā. Knowing this the devas told her 'Bharadvāja' meaning 'bear the brunt of two' and so the son of Bṛhaspati got the name of Bharadvāja also. The real name of this son was Dīrghatamas or Vitatha.

These may be closer to the original:


Bharata, a King of the Pūru line of kings, had no sons and as he was spending his days in sorrow Marutta gave Bharata this Bharadvāja as a son. Bharadvāja who was by birth a brahmin from then onwards became a Kṣatriya. (Matsya Purāṇa 49. 27-39 and Vāyu Purāṇa 99. 152158).

Bharadvaj:

Heard the Purāṇa from Sṛñjaya and narrated it to Gautama.

Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 47. 46; IV. 4. 63.


That is to say he has tradition/commentary from a certain king, who is also in Book Six by Garga:


we have accepted this treasure from Divodāsa, the spoil won by Atithigva from Śambara.

money here is "lumps":

hiraṇyapiṇḍān

for:


atharvabhyaḥ = ṛṣis of the atharvagotra; pāyu is the brother of Garga

“The son of Sṛñjaya has reverenced the Bharadvājas who have accepted such great wealth for the good of all men.”


It explains what a Ratha is:


“Worship with oblations the chariot constructed of the substance of heaven and earth, the extracted essence of the forest lords; the velocity of the waters; the encompassed with the cow-hide; the thunderbolt (of Indra).”

“Do you, divine chariot, who are the thunderbolt of Indra, the precursor of the Maruts, the embryo of Mitra, the navel of Varuṇa, propitiated by this our sacrifice, accept the oblation.”



And there are other expressions of alliance:


Thou givest these abundant boons to Divodasa pouring forth,
To Bharadvaja offering gifts.

Agni, the Bharata, hath been sought, the Vrtra-slayer, marked of all,
Yea, Divodasa's Hero Lord.

Thou smotest to the ground the hundred castles, impregnable, of Sambara the Dasyu,
When, Strong, with might thou holpest Divodasa who poured libations out, O Soma-buyer, and madest Bharadvaja rich who praised thee.



Later in IV.15.4


“Radiant as this Agni, the subduer of foes, who is kindled on the (altar) of the cast as (he was kindled) for Sṛñjaya, the son of Devavāta.”


Finally in the commentary for Rsi Gautama in Book One:


Gotama, the son of Rāhūgaṇa, was the purohita of the kuru and sṛñjaya princes, and, in an engagement with other kings, propitiated Indra by this hymn, who, in consequence, gave the victory to the former. kam (whom) is explained by kañcit (anyone, someone), i.e., Indra gives the victory to whomsoever he is pleased with.


That makes sense, if the Srnjaya memory was continuous originally.

Line fifteen does not have the name "Agni" in it...again if you want to comment something, you should write it like "this [Agni]" so we can see what the scripture actually says. Otherwise, we accumulate inaccuracies, such as other Puranic statements that look conflated:


Bharadvāja was delivered by the Marut demigods, he was known as Vitatha; nourished by the Maruts he was given over to Bharata. He had a son who was named Manyu. (see Bhāgavata Purāṇa 9.21.1)

A son of Bṛhaspati and Maruttā; born when Dīrghatamas was already in the womb; brought by the Maruts to Bharata and became his son Vitatha...


Now we can't tell if Dirghatamas is the legitimate son, or, the real name of Bharadwaj. A human is not a cat, she cannot conceive a second time from just a few hours after a zygote is first made. Something is not literally possible here, and before we figure out if it was really one or two children, we can at least straighten out one of the parents.


So, for one thing, "marutta" is adjectival, plural, or feminized. Just like the Marut Gana. It is almost always a collective or class, unless:

Marut (मरुत्):—Another name for Vāyu, a Vedic deity representing the cosmic life breath (the universal spirit). The name Marut means “he without whom one dies”.



So far, my conclusion is this is not a mortal, like Prthu, Ayu, Manu, Purusha, as we were just forced to contend with the incarnational line Vayu --> Hanuman --> Bhima --> Madhva.


Rg Veda is good because it is clear if material is by a descendant, like in X.181.2:


“They discovered (the Bṛhat) which has been put away, the most excellent substance of the sacrifice which was hidden; Bharadvāja took the Bṛhat from Dhātā, the radiant Savitā, Viṣṇu, and Agni.”

Bṛhat: bṛhat is also a portion of the Sāmaveda



That is in the last book; reasonably, he is three to perhaps five hundred years after his namesake. Or, that is, if the hymn refers to the original, the author is sapratho bhāradvājaḥ, who essentially has credited Sama Veda with ancient authority.


Even the early book has the ideas of Uktha and singing:


Ardhavaryu, hero, bring to mighty Indra for he is King thereof-the pressed-out juices;
To him exalted by the hymns and praises, ancient and modern, of the singing Rsis.


Book Six lacks Prajapati; it has Brahmanaspati and Aditi.


Looking around this book for other "kings", there were none, other than Vaisvanara and other deities as in VI.16.24:


tā | rājānā | šuci-vratā | ādityān | mārutam | gaṇam | vaso iti | yakṣi | iha | rodasī iti

Bring those Two Kings whose ways are pure, Adityas, and the Marut host,
Excellent God! and Heaven and Earth.

“Giver of dwellings, worship on this occasion, the two regal divinities, Mitra and Varuṇa, whose acts are holy, the Ādityas, the company of the Maruts, and heaven.”


So you can tell one translator feels the need to identify Mitravaruna as "two kings", and neither one responds to the presence of "yaksi", but we can be fairly certain no mortal king is intended here. Certainly no "marutta" is called a king anywhere.


We are not yet sure what may have made Bharata famous or important; success is in the field of his descendant, who has the common word "jaya" for victory, and such names are typically translatable as victory by whom, or, over something, and for whatever reason this one has been left untouched.

For the first identifiable hero:


The accent in Srnjaya does not match the stem for "hearing" (srnu) which is common; the accented appearance is:


sá sṛ́ñjayāya


it resembles etymology for srnkhala:

E. śṛṅga a horn, here said to mean a link, and khal to collect

and:

Śṛṅgāra (शृङ्गार).— (from śṛṅga)


It is common for "horn", such as IV.58 on Ghi--Soma and Four Horned brahma.

Not a lot of options in the basic meaning, but why a king would be called this is indeterminate.

His lineage is obvious in old hymns such as III.23.2:


“The two sons of Bharata, Devaśravas and Devavāta, have churned the very powerful and wealth-bestowing Agni; look upon us, Agni, with vast riches, and be the bringer of food (to us) every day.”



I believe that is the "mythical emperor". This seems to be the actual human lineage, with only the third commencing acts of valor in the Rg Veda:


Bharata, Devavāta, Sṛñjaya, Divodāsa, and Sudās

Also:

Sudas is called “Paijavana” (VII.18.21-25), ‘Son of Pijavana’.



Griffiths stuck in "son of" where there is no such phrase; a clearer read says Vasistha received gifts from:


Priest-like, with praise, I move around the altar, earning Paijavana's reward, O Agni,
Two hundred cows from Devavan's descendant, two chariots from Sudas with mares to draw them.

Gift of Paijavana, four horses bear me in foremost place, trained steeds with pearl to deck them.
Sudas's brown steeds, firmly-stepping, carry me and my son for progeny and glory.

Attend on him O ye heroic Maruts as on Sudas's father Divodasa.
Further Paijavana's desire with favour. Guard faithfully his lasting firm dominion.

paijavanasya < paijavana
[noun], genitive, singular, masculine

“Sudās.” (Pratṛda)

Therefor Pijavana = Divodas, and/or Bhadrasva; Atithigva (shared name).

Not an extra person.

This practically meaningless name is nowhere else found, and, shows the circularity.

It may be a sonic resemblance to "pinj" or some similar stem; otherwise it is hard to claim as a word. It perhaps is non-Sanskrit, a name from new subjects or something like that.



Next, from the summary of Vamadeva Mandala IV, it is an era of peace and settlement:


Divodasa and Srnjaya (Devavata's son) do find mention as does Trasadasyu.
Contemporary kings (not chieftains) that find mention are Sahadeva and Somaka, descandants of Divodasa.

The fighting was probably all far to the west.

This sequence, VI--III--VII--IV appears to be a cohesive unit based around a dynasty.


Another very good resource is Bharata Dynasty and Sage Clans.

Perhaps Mistaken Identity.



The Voice of Dharma link is an excellent article with two valuable pieces of work; the chronological order of the "majority" or Bharata Purus, and, the special difference played with the Ikshvakus. It is well-written.


MaNDala VI - DivodAsa
MaNDala III - SudAs
MaNDala VII - SudAs

All other MaNDalas - post-SudAs

Sahadeva is referred to as a contemporary in hymn I.100.

Somaka is referred to as a contemporary in IV.15.

In II.3.8, the Sarasvatī is actually mentioned along with the other two great goddesses of Kurukṣetra, Iḷā and Bhāratī, and, the previous verse II.3.7 refers to ―the three high places‖ of these three goddesses ―at the centre of the earth‖.

A handful of minor kings gives structure to V, VIII and the general and late upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I.

Mandala X appears so late, it may be discontinuously separated, so everything pretty much has to span over centuries.

Almost all the late kings and sages are unknowns, except Santanu X.98. The Sage of this Hymn is:


Devāpi, the son of Ṛṣṭiseṇa


That is what it says.

But for Devapi:


...according to a later legend he is a son of king Pratipa, resigns his kingdom, retires to the woods and is supposed to be still alive.

and this is the descent given:


Devātithi—Ṛkṣa—Bhīma—Pratīca—Pratīpa—Devāpi


Well, it is entirely possible that Devapi and Santanu are brothers. The father may be known by an alternate name, but, we don't know where that came from, "Rstisena" is in the latest book, you would think someone could read and remember that. A "rsti" in the old books is a lance or spear of the Maruts, eventually meaning sharp weapons including swords and scimitars. Santanu is mainly described as:


Kuru king of Hastinapura, the father of Bhīṣma by Gaṅgā.


We can immediately see that has a serious problem fitting the line given.

The Puranic version says:


Śantanu was none other than emperor Mahābhiṣak who was forced to be born on earth due to a curse of Brahmā.

Brahmanda Purana, in the section on Skanda and Viraja, refers to Santanu's second wife Satyavati, mother of Veda Vyasa.


That has an even bigger problem fitting, if one is prone to say Vyasa compiled this in some impossibly remote era or in the mental world.

It does fit, if he is the son of someone in Book Ten. This is the only king that is remembered at all. How can you lose track of this?




Before I say Pratipa is non-Vedic, that is not the case.


GRETIL Atharvaveda

From translation XX.129:


Pratipa Prātisutvana


His name has an antagonistic sense; as a generic word, is found sometimes, such as II.27:

A charm against an opponent in debate


The only outside reference that suggests anything about this says that:


Pariksit is a Kuru King in AV

In the epics, his grandson is Pratisravas, which may resemble the proper form Pratisrutvana, whose son is Pratipa.

The identification is "uncertain", and the epic may be an independent tradition.


It is close by, King Kaurama XX.127 is a praise of Pariksit.


Only in the past few years has anybody asked the question:

It is impossible to say with certainty which Pariksit is meant in the hymn. However, in hymn 129, book 20, Atharvaveda, there is a mention of Pratipa Prātisutvana, who was the father of Santanu and Balhika. Vyasa Rishi was the son of Santanu's second wife, Satyavati (from Parashara Rishi). So this hymn is likely to be older than Vyasa. I also think it unlikely that hymns 127 & 129 of the same book 20 would be separated by too many generations. Let us also not forget that book 20 is probably the latest part of Atharvaveda.

and:

But, then, why do the Vedas not mention the Mahabharata war anywhere? And, what about the reference to another Pariksit as being the great great great grandfather of Bhishma? Is that an interpolation to account for the genealogical inconsistencies?

That's because these are not the Mahabharata characters. We're not trying to answer that.

And just to squeak it out:

First, any translation by Ralph T. Griffiths is highly suspect. He is a known Western Christian Orientalist of the 19th century and his knowledge of Sanskrit was limited. People keeping on referring to his various translations as they are the one most widely published on the internet - because they were available and free. He is not recognized as a Sanskrit scholar within India.

Some Puranas refer to Vyasa (the author of the Mahabharata) as the compiler of the vedas; and the vedas as generally organized, or compiled, by Vyasa are recognized by all modern day Hindus (followers of the Uttara Mimamsa, no matter what sect or school).

It should be remembered that the vedas are the revealed word of God...

I've looked extensively, haven't found God yet.

His explanation explains how words and forms can arise similarly in new cycles. That is what it explains, and so the final sentence above is a poor translation.

Griffiths is not exactly "suspect" as he has no bias and admits "my translation is a conjecture". I am not sure he thought it was very good. And it is easy to catch most of the flea eggs, like with "Paijavaka" you do not need to add "son of", because that is inherent in the form of the patronymics.


The Mahabharata is "suspect"--the issue is whether one of intent, or, lack of concern, if it begins the genre "historical fiction based on actual events". I mean, the character development is titanic, as a literary work it is truly moving. I think that was the point. And it is taken literally by Indians who have not asked why it does not match even the very "end" of the Vedas until the 2020s.

Again, it seems to me that Riks and Samans are really a process, not the body of work itself.

It is the fact they can arise reliably.

The Puranas say Srnjaya spoke "the Purana", which is sometimes called the fifth Veda. However, the SV also contains Gandharva Veda or wordless musical knowledge. I would say you need to understand it that way from the very beginning.


At the time of Srnjaya, an Atharvan would know that hymns, songs, and scores are inspired acts, and be able to use them accordingly.

The value is only partly in what the words say.

It is more in the act, Sama Veda is not for reading.

I could understand the Grtasamadas moving something from the royal court into every house. Likely, myths and stories were known to many persons, but the "rites" may have been in the hands of the elect. We have already seen that new hymns, and, perhaps, new deities, are important. Book Ten is highly catalyzed, it is another world compared to a single Family Gotra attached to the king, likely has a few Tamil Sages, and shows an environment that has been saturated with familiarity.


Interestingly a remark on a more accurate name for "Hinduism":


Uttara Mimamsa


That is very similar to Bodhisattva Path.

X.98 does have this weird equivalence:


place the Aulāna (Śantanu), in heaven among the gods

Aulāna (औलान).—

1) Support.

2) Reservoir of water.


There is also an odd Mahabharata commentary which may sensibly use Rstisena.


For the Rg Veda, Yaska's Nirukta is an old (300 B. C. E. or earlier) commentary on Vedic words; it has the basic story of Devapi and Santanu, and says nothing about their extended family. Yaska mentions:


Arstisenah means the son of Rstisena (i. e. one whose army is well supplied
with spears)


This spelling is extracted and used elsewhere by someone who may not know the Nirukta:

Divodasa was a prominent king of Kashi. He was also called Bhimasena or Sudeva.

Suhotra - Sala – Arstisena - Kasa – Dlrghatapas - Dhanvantari - Ketuman - Bhimaratha - Divodasa.



His name does not mean "son of Sala", which implies this author must not have been sharp with the ancient language of Mandala Ten.

We just said this was a transformation, different from the other books, closer to Panini and Classical Sanskrit--so this looks fudged.


Now of course it would be fine to say there is Divodasa II, King of Kashi. But this is supposed to be RV Divodas. And it is exactly backwards to try to make RV fit the Epics and Puranas.

What we mean by Manadala Ten "ends", is not necessarily if Santanu was the last king of its lines, but the absence of new technology like iron swords or four-wheel war chariots. It would not technically be necessary for the whole Rg Veda to be written prior to Mitanni times in order for those deities to make sense, but, because that was all about technological advances, it is excluded because the sages were unaware of it. Indian iron comes from non-Arya tribes, and I am not sure we can be too specific as to exactly when this blossomed to an industry. My personal guess is that such experience would inspire Indians to troll for iron in the Tigris-Euphrates highlands. Or, they may have heard the "Armenians" discovered it, and rushed to chief other countries off the resource. You have to put Kikkuli's Horse Manual into perspective. Ca. 1,400 B. C. E. is probably after, let's say, the Rg Vedic hymns were composed, but so far archaeology has turned up *very little* evidence of modern horses in India at an early time.

In other words, they were very rare. They were difficult programs to administer and presumably only handled by a few of the most influential entities. There were "some" since an early time, but it seems to be a status thing.

Such a Horse is one of the few imported things India seems to have cared about.

If it were possible that Srnjaya narrated "the Purana", it is likely to him it would mean "tradition of Bharata".


It is possible some Puranic ideas may work with the first Emperor and Sage. The latter was cast out and raised by Maruts, because:

...when Mamatā, the wife of the brother of Bṛhaspati (Utathya) was pregnant, Bṛhaspati had sexual intercourse with her.

Bharata, a King of the Pūru line of kings, had no sons and as he was spending his days in sorrow Marutta gave Bharata this Bharadvāja as a son. Bharadvāja who was by birth a brahmin from then onwards became a Kṣatriya. (Matsya Purāṇa 49. 27-39 and Vāyu Purāṇa 99. 152-158).

This sage performed the sacrifice Putrakāmeṣṭi, and gave a son to Divodāsa (Bhumanyu).

According to the Ṛktantra, prātiśākhya of Sāmaveda, it was Brahmā, who first composed the science of grammar. This science was taught by Brahmā to others in the following order: Brahmā to Bṛhaspati, he to Indra, Indra to Bhāradvāja and he to his disciples.

Pāṇini has discussed the grammatical concepts of Bhāradvāja. Ṛkprātiśākhya and Taittirīya have quoted the opinions of this grammarian.

Similar to Moses, Bharadwaj was cast out for being illegitimate, and raised by the Maruts.

So he knew Bharata and Brhaspati.

I am not sure if the Veda itself will confirm this.


RV III.23 clearly has the lineage:

devaśravā devavātaśca bhāratī


but doesn't do much with the ancestry of Bharata. This is never left alone; all the later versions pile something over him.

I would say the purpose of purana is not pre-Vedic history in any literal way, but, a mythos that explains to us more about the who, how, and why of the deities that are in the Veda, and how, subjectively, that affects us. And so it can give a type of ethereal history. I find there is an area that does this very well.

Importantly the Vedic Yuga is Five Years, Agni, Sun, Moon, Vayu, and Rudra.



It is anesoteric possibility in Brahmanda Purama:


The good son of Brahmadattāgni (the fire handed over by Brahmā) is well known by the name Bharata. Vaiśvānara was his son, and he carried Havya for a hundred years.

This section concerning Agnivaṃśa must have been possibly a part of the original (Ur-) purāṇa as many verses hereof are textually identical with those in Vā.P. 29, Mt.P.51.

Brahmadatta=Bharata=Vaiśvānara, the carrier of food to gods.

ŚBr. (Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa) I.4.2.2 explains that Agni is called Bharata as he supplies Havya to gods.

Brahmaudanāgni (ब्रह्मौदनाग्नि).—Bharata, son of Laukikāgni.*

* Vāyu-purāṇa 29. 7.


This is the closest thing I have found to the Forty-nine Fires described by Theosophy, but, it does not work that way, not remotely close--if anything, the 7 x 7 symbolism is with the Maruts. This area is saying Bharata is an inter-alia with the above and:

9-10. Formerly the fire Edhiti was gathered by Atharvan in the ocean Puṣkara. Hence that secular fire is Ātharvaṇa. Darpahā is remembered as the son of Atharvan. Bhṛgu was born as Atharvan and Fire is remembered as Ātharvaṇa (son of Atharvan). Hence the secular fire is considered Dadhyaṅ, the son of Atharvaṇa.

11. Pavamāna, the son of Atharvan, is remembered by the wise as one that should be generated by churning.

It distinguishes Solar Fire and Watery Fire (Lightning), i. e. natural law, whereas the Bharata vein is human-caused, and is both literal and symbolic. Fire by Friction. Therefor we would understand him as mantra.

This is possible if you rake the definitions of Bharata:

5) Fire.

Bharata (भरत).—[masculine] [Epithet] of Agni (lit. to be maintained or kept alive)

the fire in which the rice for Brāhmans is boiled


also:


10) [v.s. ...] Name of Rudra (the Maruts are called his sons), [Ṛg-veda ii, 36, 8]

11) [v.s. ...] of an Āditya, [Nirukta, by Yāska viii, 13]





Sayana says:


Tṛtsus are the same as the Bharatas. Saṃvaraṇa, the son of Ṛkṣa, the fourth in descent from Bharata, the son of Duṣyanta, was driven from his kingdom by the Pāñcālas, and obliged to take refuge with his tribe among the thickets on the Sindhu until Vasiṣṭha came to them and consented to be the rājā's purohit, when they recovered their territory.


The Rudra attribution II.36 does not have eight verses; looking nearby, we find Agni uses multiple deities, including:


Rudra art thou, the Asura of mighty heaven


and:

Since the strong Rudra, O Maruts with brilliant chests, sprang into life for you in Prsni's radiant lap.



The usage Asura--Breath is still current in Book Two.


He uses a Vajra, medicine, seems to take over Indra's proclivities, and is:

puru-rūpaḥ (multi-form, many colored, variegated)

bhīmám

vṛṣabha


and the medicine is:


bheṣajā | marutaḥ |


he is pluralized:


come, Asvins, Rudras, to the house

rudrā

Rudras

rudráir


but I don't see him re-named.


This is in conjunction with Bharata Agni II.7.

That also has Suci and Pavaka, since Pavamana is Book Nine.


But these appearances are overlooked:


II.14:


bháraténdrāya

II.16:


háste vájram bhárati


In ii.36.2, the "sons of Bharata" are whoever sits on the sacred grass to drink Soma; they are any:


divo naraḥ

which may be a generic title, or, the Aswins.




It sounds like Brahmanda Purana is elaborating Mandala Two. This is fused, because the people are Bharatas, and the tutelary deity is goddess Bharati. But this is who we use in Buddhist Yoga. I didn't know where she came from! Indians pay no attention to Bharati or Indra. I personally know them to a high level of detail. They are so amazing, 3,000 years of exegesis is worth it.

I am just learning the language that expresses what I want to say.

It is really Buddhism yet is still the same as the beginning of Rg Veda.


It just doesn't make sense to place Bharata anywhere near a First Man role like Adam, in the same way it does not follow to fill in the blanks with other material. The scripture hasn't got any history before him. In fact we are lucky the Old Books are fairly focused, like stages. Book One is "after" that, but, it accretes for the rest of the composition, whereas Nine is slightly opposite, being formed by pushing all the Soma material into it.

The Nirukta says that hymns are intended to be used as a means of transcending the three worlds and re-entering.

Yoga means you have combined that with life force, which is plainly a subject in the other Vedas, or, Sama actually requires proficiency in using it. Remember, the actual science is Gandharva, meaning quintessential or permanent music that exists in the spheres, like the words of the Riks. It doesn't care which words you stick on it.

In other words, you would use one or more hymns that have subjects in this world, then the next, then the next, and then you would be able to find the form of Hiranyagarbha and Mahar Loka or Kama Loka.

Something like II.2:

Song chanted by us men, O Agni, Ancient One, has swelled unto the deathless Gods in lofty heaven


I suppose the reason I, personally, have a view on the goddess is like this:

The Bharata period is clearly the Early period of the Rigveda: a) the Bharatas themselves are mentioned in all the Family Books, but in none of the non-family Books; and b) (see TALAGERI 2000:149) there is a pattern in the references, in the āprī-sūktas, to the goddess Bhāratī (family deity of the Bharatas): five families (Angiras, Bhṛgu, Viśvāmitra, Vasiṣṭha and Agastya), which originated in the Early period, mention Bhāratī as the first of the Three Goddesses; two families (Gṛtsamada and Kaśyapa), which originated in the later Middle period, shift the position of Bhāratī back in the enumeration of the Goddesses; and three families (Atri, Kaṇva and Parucchepa), which originated in the Late period, do not mention Bhāratī by name at all.

If Srnjaya was supposed to be talking about Bharata as Fire by Friction, would that makes sense according to the system we think is being developed, yes it would.

Is it physically possible that Bharadwaj, raised by the Maruts, could have directly inherited from Bharata and transmitted to Srnjaya, that would also make sense.

It is entirely possible kings could transmit "purana" which would mean a spoken mythology for Indra and so on.

It may have been universal and have no way of ultimately tracing the origin. We can say there is an uncanny resemblance to the Mehrgarh Wheel.

However we are practically forced to conclude that "Arya" is Gangetic.


There was ostensibly a connection due to the spread of rice farming.

I, at least, get the sense that Bharata Purus have summoned the people they view as cultural patriarchs.



The origin of the Solar Dynasty is claimed to be Ayodhya, which we would say is symbolic for the human aura.




As Voice of Dharma observes the relatively crisp beginning, and muddy ending of Bharata Purus, they have also discovered the principle of the "beginning explained at the end" for the Solar Dynasty:

I.112.13 is more specific: it names MandhAtA in the same verse as BharadvAja. (The other reference to BharadvAja in this particular set of ASvin hymns, in I.116.18, likewise refers to BharadvAja and DivodAsa in the same verse.)

The inference is clear: MandhAtA belongs to the earliest period of MaNDala VI and beyond.

The whole situation reeks of irony: the TRkSi Kings Purukutsa and Trasadasyu belong to the period of the late MaNDalas, but references (albeit interpolations) to them are found in the oldest MaNDalas; whereas their ancestor MandhAtA, who belongs to the oldest period, even preceding MaNDala VI, is referred to only in the latest MaNDalas.


The composer who refers to him in VIII.39.8 and VIII.40.12 is NAbhAka KANva. According to tradition, NAbhAka is a King from the IkSvAku (TRkSi) dynasty who joined the KaNva family of RSis. He is, therefore, a descendant of MandhAtA, whom, indeed, he refers to as his ancestor.

Buddha is in this line of Angiras Gotra.

Mandhata, like Pururavas, is a legend that was not eulogized until later.



So then if you think of individual kings up through Book Four, these are the main corresponding Sages:






(or open http://voiceofdharma.org/books/rig/img18.jpg)

For example, the tangible Atri comes near the end of the sequence. Atri Mandala V synopsis just has tribes entering the service of Indra. For Mandala VIII, it is observed that enemies worship Indra, or it is possible to do it wrong. We already found that.

The kings in the end era are not Puranic. I am not sure if notable events happen.


Talageri says Book Two marks a definite shift from expansion to consolidation:

The contrast between Book 4 and Book 2 cannot be better illustrated than by pointing out that Book 4 (with its westward thrust) is the only book of the Rigveda which does not refer even once to the Sarasvati, while Book 2 is the only book which does not refer to any other river except the Sarasvati.

Further, while the references to the Three Great Goddesses (tisro devī) of the Sarasvati area (Iḷā, Bhāratī, Sarasvatī) are found once in each of the ten āprī-sūktas of the ten families of composers of the Rigveda (in I.13.9; 142.9; 188.8; II.3.8; III.4.8; V.5.8; VII.2.8; IX.5.8; X.70.8; 110.8), the only place outside these ten āprī-sūktas where there is a reference to them is in II.35.5 (and, according to Jamison, also in II.5.5).

He says the book deals with the "Iranian problem":


In this stage, there is a turnaround in the fortunes and importance of the bhṛgu family which joined up with the Pūrus and Vedic culture.


You can see in the chart, there are rare or legendary Bhrgus, until they make this repair. And he then goes deep into "consolidation", thinking the gṛtsamadas of Book Two changed and redacted everything:

...brahmaṇas-pati ("lord of prayer/piety/holiness", from the word brahman). Again, the gṛtsamadas took this forward and made it into a regular alternative name of bṛhaspati, converting him into a full-fledged God of Priesthood.

They coined the "Brahmana", "householder rites", inserted samans and atharvan into the older books, and so on, a lot is going on there. He thinks that "Om" is late while we found it is secretly coded. Similarly, he disqualifies Sama and Atharva Vedas as "late", whereas we think it was a simultaneous process.

I think he is on to something, but, that may be a bit extreme.

It was a fair amount of Rudra. But he is already all this in Book Six plus Soma Rudra with Seven Jewels.


Again if we go to Talageri's summary, it is based on 62 entire hymns being placed in Book Six, based off some western reasoning. We can understand the special evaluation of the Solar Dynasty, which only affects a handful described as "very different" and "don't fit". In these cases it is like:

The Aitareya Brāhmaṇa VI.18 specifies that six hymns: III.30-31, 34, 36, 38, 48 — are interpolated (later additions). One of these interpolated hymns mentions gandharva in the Far West.

Beyond this, he adds various things including:


The verse 3.62.10 gained great importance in Hinduism as the Gayatri Mantra. It is in a Redacted Hymn by the viśvāmitras.


words such as:

varuṇāni (wife of Varuṇa): [VII. 34.2].

Babylonian words:

bekanāṭa (money-lender to traders, the Paṇi, who are referred to in the same verse) in VIII.66.10
manā (a unit of measure which is still used to this day) in VIII.78.2.



We are looking for certain things such as the one-line I.99 Agni Durga Suktam:


jātavedase sunavāma somam arātīyato ni dahāti vedaḥ | sa naḥ parṣad ati durgāṇi viśvā nāveva sindhuṃ duritāty agniḥ ||

“We offer oblations of Soma to Jātavedas, may he consume the wealth of those who feel enmity against us; may he transport us over all difficulties; may Agni convey us, as in a boat over a river, across all wickedness.”



Practically the same as Durga Suktam.



From a page of 160 Kings:










We noticed something similar to the Code of Hammurabi ca. 1,750 B. C. E.

A word about foreign moneylenders was used in VIII.66.


Well, the context here turns out to be proper Indra worship. The majority of it is fairly standard, although he ascribes propriety with:


Brhat Saman at his sacrifice where the Soma is effused


The wielder of the Vajra is identified as:


“Indra; Haryaśva.”


And it is really two words, Benakata and Pani that should be the target:


Indra by his energy overpowers all the huckstering usurers who see only this world's days.

cf. Nirukta 6.26; usurers and hucksters

Ahardṛśaḥ = seeing the day, i.e., seeing only the light of this world and dwelling in deep darkness after death; cf. Manu 8.102



The idea is prevalent that "others" do this, and, "we" do it better:


“Indra, slayer of Vṛtra, invoked of many, we, your many worshippers, offer new hymns to you, thunderer, as your wages.”

“Indra, doer of many great deeds, (other worshippers) invoke the manifold hopes and protections which abide in you; but rejecting the enemy's oblations, come to us bestower of dwellings; O mightiest, hear my appeal.”

“Indra, we are your, therefore we, your worshippers, depend on you; other than you, Maghavan, invoked of many, there is no giver of happiness.”


He has a form of Shakti:


śaciṣṭha


and the end is some kind of banishment:


Let your effused Soma be only (for Indra); O sons of Kali, fear not; that malignant (spirit) departs, of his own accord he departs.


they are abjuring:


dhvasmāyati

eṣaḥ dhvasmā | ayati |



which is an aspect of:

Dhvasman (ध्वस्मन्):—[from dhvas] m. polluting, darkening, [Ṛg-veda] (destroying, [Sāyaṇa])



as used in Old Books.


You have the specific use of new hymns as the reversal against rogue characters who are the same old ones, plus, a new Babylonian kind apparently.


Hammurabi ca. 1,750 B. C. E. has perhaps the first most complete writing which of course does set a standard against the same villains.

Does the Amorite Kingdom sound like the Late Vedic or New Books:


Iron did not become important until after Hammurabi.

...barley and wool were the mainstays of Babylonian day-to-day life and commerce.



His kingdom was overthrown by the Hittites in 1595.

Afterwards, there is the para-Mittani emergence of the Amarna Kassites known as early as the 1740s:

Several individuals with Kassite names are recorded in the prism of Tunip-Teššup from Tikunani (ca. 1570 or 1560 BCE)

Already at that time they could purchase land and acted as officials, especially in horse breeding...

...they had chariots...

The Kassite termini surviving in Akkadian are mainly from the realms of horse breeding and chariot building.


By the 14th century BCE, the Kassites controlled the whole of Babylonia, including the Diyala region. Dilmun (modern Bahrain) in the Persian Gulf was ruled by a Kassite governor. Babylonia was recognized as a great power by the other Near Eastern powers, namely, its neighbors and Egypt, according to the Amarna correspondence.

The Kassites kings pursued a policy of dynastic marriages with rulers of the other contemporary Near Eastern powers, namely, Elam and Hatti. The emergence of Assyria as a world power under Aššur-uballiṭ caused Burnaburiaš II to marry Aššur-uballiṭ’s daughter as his main wife.

There is good reason for thinking that the Kassites were once neighbors of Indo-Europeans, in view of some affinities between their pantheon and the Indo-Aryan one.


The only Kassite deities who had temples in Kassite Babylonia were the patron deities of the royal family, Šuqamuna and Šumaliya.

In other words, Ur was not under Kassite control until the 1300s.

It does seem an Akkadian word was transposed into the Vedas in a rather specific way.


This, perhaps, new hymn for the new word, places it as the opposite of what Krishna says of himself:


Of hymns I am the Brihat-Saman sung to the Lord Indra...


'endowed with the saman brhat', is therefore a familiar epithet of Indra



Bhagavad Gita selects the Sama Veda and this song.


In parallel to the RV hymn, it even has its own, Brhat Saman VIII.89:


by which the upholders: i.e. the viśve devāḥ produced the sun for Indra by means of the Bṛhat sāman; i.e.they produced Indra's own wakeful radiance thereby


Indra:

lord of the troops of Maruts


To smite Vrtra in the present tense:


pra va indrāya bṛhate maruto brahmārcata |




...as men heat the gharma with sāman hymns. (sing) the acceptable Bṛhat sāman...

used in the pravargya


Maṇḍala 1, Anuvāka 10, Sūkta 52

Name of an Āṅgirasa, [Atharva-veda]

It is in the colossal Yajur Veda Soma Offering.



From the Aranyaka:


...the Rathantara Saman is speech, the Brihat Saman is breath. By both, by speech and breath, the Samhita is formed.

“Vasishtha carried hither the Rathantara;” “Bharadvâga brought hither the Brihat of Agni.” (Rv. X, 181, 1; and Rv. X, 181, 2)

He who thus knows this Samhita. (union), becomes united with offspring, cattle, fame, glory of countenance, and the world of Svarga.

Kauntharavya said: “Speech is united with breath, breath with the blowing air, the blowing air with the Visvedevas, the Visvedevas with the heavenly world, the heavenly world with Brahman. That Samhiti is called the gradual Samhiti.”


Chandogya Upanishad:

the Brihat Saman woven in Aditya


Along with Brhadaranyaka Upanishad, the Chandogyopanishad is an ancient source of principal fundamentals of Vedanta philosophy.

Rathantara Sama is ordained to be viewed as process of generating fire by rubbing two wood pieces.


For the Brhat:


This is a Hymn from the Sama Veda attributed to Rishi Bharadwaja in praise of Indra.

Earth is Rig, Fire is Saman.
This Saman rests upon the Rig
Therefore the Saman is sung as resting on the Rik.
Earth is “Sa” Agni is “Ama” that creates Sama

Yagna is based on the two horses of Indra – Rchah and Samani. Rchah is the world we aspire and Sama is the world we live in.

Chandoga means one who sings the Saama Gaana.

It is incorrect to say that the Rig Veda is the oldest.


Vaisnavas say:


He specifies that His vibhuti within the Sama Veda is the hymn known as Brhat-Sama indicated in the Rig Veda VI.XXXXVI.I beginning tvam rddhim havamahe meaning O’Indra we invoke you.



In this case, it is only one line copied, and it is not "rdhhi". VI.46 is not by Bharadwaj personally, and, it may be a redaction, because it refers to the Trksus.

In the corresponding Saman, we soon see an apparent relation of Brhad to Soma Pressing:


1 3 1 0505c bṛhadgāyantaḥ sutasome adhvare huve bharaṃ na kāriṇam ..



The explanation is that this line is:

Rg. 8-66-1



In other words, the Saman does not necessarily copy a Rik. It takes one or two lines and then maybe goes to a different book. Comparatively, this same line is in two Samans.


237. Indra Devata, Kali Pragatha Rshi

In the yajna of love and non-violence where
everything is perfect and soma is distilled, I invoke Indra
like Abundance itself, giver of wealth, honour and
fulfilment. Singing songs of adoration with energy and
enthusiasm for your protection and progress, O devotees,
celebrate Indra who brings wealth, honour and excellence
at the earliest by fastest means.


Indra and Rudra are similar or nearly parallel; in Puranas, Indra originally sliced the Maruts into forty-nine pieces; Rudra having to do with their calming and pacifying. We has a phrase for this, Raudra Krama. In this sense, the Maruts are the inner life winds.


To sum up with a perfect opportunity for a personality cult, here is the last direct Bharata Puru king from the page of translated Book Four. What we notice is the dynasty as a whole is overlooked; it's not quite about idolizing the people. It sounds more like the "tradition of Srnjaya". From what we have found, and, in the weird Puranic statement, we would think the "He" in line four is:


Emperor Bharata and Sage Atharvan


are they people? I am not sure.


15 – agni

1. AGNI the Herald, like a horse, is led forth at our solemn rite,
God among Gods adorable.
2 Three times unto our solemn rite comes Agni like a charioteer,
Bearing the viands to the Gods.
3 Round the oblations hath he paced, Agni the Wise, the Lord of Strength,
Giving the offerer precious boons.
4 He who is kindled eastward for Srnjaya, Devavata’s son,
Resplendent, tamer of the foe.
5 So mighty be the Agni whom the mortal hero shall command,
With sharpened teeth and bountiful.
6 Day after day they dress him, as they clean a horse who wins the prize.
Dress the red Scion of the Sky.
7 When Sahadeva’s princely son with two bay horses thought of me,
Summoned by him I drew not back.
8 And truly those two noble bays I straightway took when offered me,
From Sahadeva’s princely son.
9 Long, O ye Asvins, may he live, your care, ye Gods, the princely son.
Of Sahadeva, Somaka.
10 Cause him the youthful prince, the son of Sahadeva, to enjoy
Long life, O Asvins, O ye Gods.

[shaberon]

Tvastr and Vairocani




This is a difficult, but perhaps important, part.

It will do something interesting for what we have learned as the historical Vedas.

HPB brought up a valuable story about Samjna and Chhaya Samjna, thinking it represented a great mystery. This, basically, is the case that was furthered by Sri Aurobindo, Ganapati Muni, and Frawley. They, however, "stop" at Indra and Indra Shakti and the performance of Cinnamasta.

However, within Cinnamasta herself, or, from the myths, this will be found to be incomplete.


Roughly put, rather than Indra's, the usage is of Tvastr Shakti.

This is tricky. The internet is full of crude ideas like "is Indra more powerful?", while the real understanding is far more subtle. It is like the same entity re-named when passing through multiple stages:

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.

YV iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) Prajapati in with Soma in the mind; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; �ipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidhra's altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidhra's altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.

Tvastr has no hymn dedicated to him. It is speculated he came from "outside" of the main myth cycle.

...called ‘firstborn’ and invoked for the sake of offspring, [especially] in the Āprī hymns, [Ṛg-veda; Atharva-veda] etc., [Mahābhārata iv, 1178; Harivaṃśa 587 ff.; Raghuvaṃśa vi, 32]; associated with the similar deities Dhātṛ, Savitṛ, Prajā-pati, Pūṣan, and surrounded by divine females [gnās, janayas, devānām patnīs; cf. tvaṣṭā-varūtrī] recipients of his generative energy, [Ṛg-veda; Śatapatha-brāhmaṇa i; Kātyāyana-śrauta-sūtra iii]; supposed author of [Ṛg-veda x, 184] with the epithet Garbha-pati

adhipatirbrahmaa

feminized:

‘daughters of T°’, certain divine female beings, [Tāṇḍya-brāhmaṇa xii, 5.]

X.184 is by a Sage named for Tvastr.


Unfortunately, the powerful computerized search methods don't work for this. Takes manual labor. From his definition, we quickly find only a few references to him in Rg Veda. In III.7, Agni is "black-backed":


nīlapṛṣṭho


The flowing (rivers) invigorating him, bear along the great son of Tvaṣṭā, the undecaying upholder (of the world), radiant with various forms in the vicinity (of the firmament)...


Ila:

Grant, Agni, to the offerer of the oblation, the earth...



In II.11 by:


gṛtsamadaḥ śaunakaḥ

II.11.17, enemy of Indra

There is a thought of Trta Aptya, an "old" water god usurped by Indra.


“Let us honour those men, who, through your protection, surpass all their rivals, as the Dasyus (are surpassed) by the Arya; this (have you wrought) for us; you have slain Viśvarūpa, the son of Tvaṣṭā, through friendship of Trita.”

Trita is exceptionally complicated.


That may be another digression that holds something confused. But in terms of Tvastr, the site has no more links, and there should be a lot more. From memory:



Tvastr and Indra have a rivalry from the previous Manvantara.

By Tvastr are produced Indra's enemy, Vrtra, as well as his weapon to destroy it, Vajra.

In most of his hymns, Indra is understandable as raw power.

His character and performance in several stories may be criticized.


So, you don't simply "demonize" Tvastr.


That is because he is a Madhu Vidya.

Here he is mentioned precisely towards the end of I.117, a peoples' directory:


You liberated, leaders (of rites), the sage Atri...together with his troop (of children), destroying...the devices of the malignant Dasyus.


...you restored Rebha, cast by unassailable (enemies) into the water...

...the sage (Vandanā) cast into a well...

the author calls himself:


Kakṣīvat, of the race of Pajra


“You restored, leaders (of sacrifices), Viṣṇāpu (his lost son) to Viśvaka, the son of Kṛṣṇa, when he praised you; you bestowed, Aśvins, a husband upon Ghoṣā, growing old and tarrying in her father's dwelling.”

Sayana says:


Ghoṣā was the daughter of Kakṣīvat; she was a leper, and therefore, unfit to be married; but when advanced in years, she prayed to the Aśvins, who healed her leprosy and restored her to youth and beauty, so that she obtained a husband



more people:

...a lovely bride to Śyāvā; you gave sight to Kaṇva...hearing to the son of Nṛṣad...

...to Pedu a swift horse...

...to the sage (Bharadvāja), exalted by Agastya with prayer, you restored Nāsatyas, Viṣpalā.


Sayana says:

The son of the jar: sunu = son; kubhāt prasuta, i.e. Agastya;

Viprāya = Bharadvājāya ṛṣaye


...on your way to the dwelling of Kāvya, (to receive his) adoration, you raised up (Rebha), Aśvins, on the tenth day

...the aged Cyavana again young

...praised with former praises by Tugra, so were you again adored (by him), when you brought Bhujyu safe from the tossing ocean


“The quail glorified you, Aśvins, when you saved her from the mouth of the wolf; you carried off (Jāhuṣa) to the top of the mountain in your triumphant chariot; and slew the son of Viṣvāñc with a poisoned (arrow).”

You restored eyes to Ṛjrāśva, who, on presenting a hundred sheep to the she-wolf, had been condemned to darkness by his indignant father...

“(Desiring) that the enjoyment (arising from the perfection) of the senses (should be restored to the blind), the she-wolf invoked you, (saying), "Aśvins, showerers (of benefits), leaders (of sacrifices), Ṛjrāśva, (lavish) as a youthful gallant, (has given me) a hundred and one sheep, cutting them into fragments".

“Dasras, you filled the milkless, barren, and emaciated cow of Śayu with milk; you brought, by your powers, the daughter of Purumitra, as a wife, of Vimada.”

“You replaced, Aśvins, with the head of a horse, (the head of) Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, and, true to his promise, he revealed to you the mystic knowledge which he had learned from Tvaṣṭā, and which was as a ligature of the waist to you.”


...you gave to Vadhṛmati her son Hiraṇyahasta; bounteous Aśvins, you restored to life the triply-mutilated Śyāva.

Śyāva was cut into three pieces by the asuras; the pieces were reunited into one by the Aśvins

Ligature of the waist suggests Bhuvar Loka.

RV I.117 crams a whole Puranic myth into one line about Tvastr.






Generally:


In the Yajurveda, Purusha Sukta and the tenth mandala of the Rigveda, his character and attributes are merged with the concept of Hiranyagharbha/Prajapathy or Brahma.

Tvaṣṭṛ is mentioned 65 times in the Rgveda and is the former of the bodies of men and animals,' and invoked when desiring offspring, called garbha-pati or the lord of the womb.


More thoroughly:



The Rig Vedic Verse 10.82 mentions Tvashtar emanating from Vishwakarman but thats not all. There are different layers to this enigmatic god depending on which scriptures you read. The Vedic Tvashtar is described in various hymns as the artist who creates an embryo inside a woman's womb.

Other citations:


Rig Veda Book 3 Verse 55

Rig Ved Verse 17.1 of Book 10

RV Book 10. Verse 10.5 also mentions him as the creator of Yama and Yami, the offspring of Surya and Saranyu referring to his dual role as the fashioner of embryos as well as their forefather

Atharva Veda Book 5 Hymn 25

The Rig Vedic Verse 10.82 mentions Tvashtar emanating from Vishwakarman but thats not all. There are different layers to this enigmatic god depending on which scriptures you read. The Vedic Tvashtar is described in various hymns as the artist who creates an embryo inside a woman's womb.

Paradoxically, he also created the Vajra with which Vritra was slayed.


Atharva Veda Wedding Hymn

Atharva Veda Book 5 Hymn 25 mentions the following:

4-5 Let Mitra-Varuna and God Brihaspati lay the germ in thee. Indra and Agni lay the germ, Dhātar bestow the germ in thee. Let Vishnu form and mould the womb, let Tvashtar duly shape the forms.

11 Tvashtar, celestial artist, lay within the body of this dame. A male germ with the noblest form for her in the tenth month to bear.

Book 29 Verse 9 of Shukla Yajurved


Here is a page with many Yajur Veda citations.



Macdonnell collated many of the references, including the epithet "supani". He says that Tvastr most often is omni- or multi-formed, Visvarupa, which overlooks the fact that Aswins and Rudra, at least, are puru rupa.

Older references are:


VI.47

VI.49

III.54


father of Brhaspati:


II.23


most associated with females or wives of the gods:

I.22

father of Saranyu:


V.42

X.17



Book Five is not correct because it is Atri Visvedeva V.42 on five pranas and the purposes of new hymns, including:


bliss-giving Asura

and:

sarasvatī bṛhaddivota rākā


May the House-friends, the cunning-handed Artists, may the Steer's (or: the showerer's: vṛṣṇaḥ) Wives, the streams carved out by Vibhvan,
And may the fair Ones honour and befriend us, Sarasvati, Brhaddiva, and Raka.


Rākā (राका).—The presiding Devī of the full moon.

or regarded as the Full Moon’s consort

II.32 is to her.



In the previous citation, instead of "Saranyu" it is translated "protector":

suśaraṇāya


But this is really a form of "Sharanam", as we use in Buddhist Refuge Vow, and you occasionally see in other sources in a similar way. This would be one of them. But this is pre-Buddhist and his Object of Refuge is indeed the new thing:

My newest song, thought that now springs within me, I offer to the Great, the Sure Protector,
Who made for us this All, in fond love laying each varied form within his Daughter's bosom.

Now, even now, may thy fair praise, O Singer, attain Idaspati who roars and thunders,
Who, rich in clouds and waters with his lightning speeds forth bedewing both the earth and heaven.

May this my laud attain the troop of Maruts, those who are youths in act, the Sons of Rudra.
The wish calls me to riches and well-being: praise the unwearied Ones whose steeds are dappled.

vanaspatīn | oṣadhīḥ

May this my laud reach earth and air's mid-region, and forest trees and plants to win me riches.
May every Deity be swift to listen, and Mother Earth with no ill thought regard me.

Gods, may we dwell in free untroubled bliss.
May we obtain the Asvins' newest favour, and gain their health-bestowing happy guidance.

Tvastr is mentioned with Three Adityas with three sons and two wives.



He is in III.53, an asura in the form of a three-bellied, three-uddered, three-faced bull impregnating the eternal waters.





His daughter Samjna is one of the most crucial stories, and her mother is disregarded.



Here are some identifications from Brahmanda Purana:

Varuṇa’s wife, goddess Stutā (Sunā in Vāyu 84-6-8)

Stuta (elsewhere, Sura or Carsani), mother of Surasundari

Lord Skanda is the overlord of all those Nairṛtas as allowed by Brahmā.

Bṛhaspati had a sister named Varastrī. She observed the vow of celibacy. She had achieved yogic powers. She then used to wander over the entire universe without any attachment. She ultimately became the wife of Prabhāsa who was the eighth among the Vasus.

17-20. (Partially defective text). Viśvakarman, a Deva was born of her. He is the Prajāpati (Creator) of artisans and craftsmen. He had evolved the forms of Virāṭ (the supreme being). Another name of this liberal-minded grandson of Dharma is Tvaṣṭṛ,

"Vivwakarman" seems to be applied to Tvastr, and again, perhaps himself as his own son.

Tvastr Shakti and daughter:

Virocanā, famous as the daughter of Prahrāda was the wife of Tvaṣṭṛ. She was the sister of Virocana and the mother of Triśiras, the great and intelligent Viśvarūpa who was the preceptor of the Devas.

The daughter of Tvaṣṭṛ who became well-known, as Saṃjñā and the wife of Savitṛ (the Sun) gave birth to Manu, the eldest son of great fortune and exalted dignity, of Vivasvān. (the sun).

Then she gave birth to the twins viz. Yama and Yamunā (See vv 31-32 where Yama and Yamī are the names mentioned). She assumed the form of a mare and went to the Kurus.

That lady of great fortune gave birth to two sons, the Aśvins. They were the sons of the sun-god who had assumed the form of a horse. She gave birth to the sons through the nostrils in the atmosphere itself. The two sons Mārtaṇḍa [of?] were Nāsatya and Dasra.”

On top of ineffective searches, we have to contend with alternate spelling:


Virocanā (विरोचना).—Daughter of Prahlāda the asura king. Tvaṣṭā married her. A son named Viraja was born to this couple.

Virocanā (विरोचना).—The queen of Tvaṣṭri, and mother of Viraja.*

* Bhāgavata-purāṇa V. 15. 15; Vāyu-purāṇa 84. 19.


also:


Triśiras alias Viśvarūpa was the great (elder) son of Tvaṣṭṛ. He was born of Yaśodharā, daughter of Virocana. He became very famous. He who is remembered as Viśvakarman was the younger brother of Viśvarūpa.


Her name is almost apparent in RV VIII.93.26:


ā te dakṣaṃ vi rocanā dadhad ratnā vi dāśuṣe | stotṛbhya indram arcata ||

“May he give strength and his brilliant heaven and precious things to you his worshipper, and to his praising priests; worship Indra.”


In our school we use the convention:


Vairocani (वैरोचनि).—A wife of Tvaṣṭa.*

* Vāyu-purāṇa 65. 85


The names are built on the verb "rocana", or, possibly "racana"; this is a bit more common, such as in IX.17.5:

“Soma, mounting beyond the three worlds, you illumine heaven, and moving, you urge on the sun.”


I.149.4:


illuminating the three bright (regions)

tri rocanāni, either heaven, earth and mid-air or the three fires




So this is the Luminous aspect, mixed with space, worlds, fires, bonds, in the Triple Structure of Creation.


According to Aurobindo:

Rodasī, the dual Vedic word for heaven and earth, meant probably, like rajas and rocana, other Vedic words for the heavenly and earthly worlds, “the shining”.


Well, when we studied color, it "wasn't", because most of the terminology is non-specific hues of "bright", which is the "primary color". And these siblings are Daityas. It is not a confusion about "asura", because all of this *does* have a critical forebearer:


Prahlada + (Drarbi, Dhriti, or Varuni) = Vairocani



Mahabharata does not really say Prahlada's wife is Dhriti or his daughter is Vairocani since they are omitted altogether. Lakshmi's 1,000 names line seventy-five does however begin with Vairocani Narasimhi.

Vayu Purana 2.22 and Brahmanda Purana state Vairocani is daughter of Prahlada, wife of Tvastr; from p. 651 in Vayu Purana part two.

Bhadrakali hypostasis in part one.

Prahlada is assuredly one of the more interesting views about what is Indian and non-western. But he is not terribly obscure. We are trying to delve into a *practically ignored* branch of his descent; the brother may be tremendously inflated, but so far the sister barely has a foot in the door.



Aswins generally inhabit Bhuvar Loka, and:


tvāṣṭrī tu saviturbhāryā vaḍavārūpadhāriṇī | asūyata mahābhāgā sāntarīkṣe'śvinābubhau


Daughter of Tvastr, you are Savitur's wife, having the form of Vadava.

Found in Mahabharata and GRETIL Brahmanda Purana.



"Varuni" can signify wife *or* daughter of Varuna, as Tvashtri may be wife or daughter of Tvastr.

Unless distinguished, Vairocani has the same name as her brother, the much more famous father of Bali. And, I think, over-emphasis on the masculinized "demon slaying" has obfuscated the feminine version, which is Solar and Nectarine.


They are all "above" the Aswins:


Samjna or Saranyu is the daughter of Tvastr. She has children in disguise, who are later able to obtain his highest grade of nectar more or less by magic. Vairocani is the wife of Tvastr. Roughly, Samjna was replaced by Chhaya (Shadow or Terrestrial perception), while she, Divine Perception, gives birth to Immortality (Aswins) in a mystical maze. This Immortality relies on its parents, Tvastr, the Divine Architect, and Vairocani, the heat of Tapas, which is why we have Vairocani as the thread through the maze.

Samjna is the Buddhist Perception Skandha, or, rather, Apperception, the way past experiences agglomerate to current sensory perceptions.

The skandha, heap, or accumulation, is Chhaya Samjna, and what you do with it is stop it. The same thing becomes reborn in a new condition, i. e. Divine Perception capable of wielding what the Aswins are doing.


This is a bit like six of the Pleiades mating with Agni; a false Samjna goes to Tvastr, and apparently he can't tell the difference. In both of these stories, we find something highly suggestive of delusion vs. true knowledge. Samjna's mother, on the other hand, finds her way into something far more dramatic:




Cinnamasta's attendants are Vairocani and Varnani--this is pretty much the same, whether Arya or Buddhist.

The second would mean "coloration", unless it misspells Varunani which is in Rg Veda, twice with Rodasi.

Varunani as Nrrti in Rg Veda.


Yoga schools are all different, but, it is worth respecting any who are refined and advanced. Asa Saphu is a Nepalese archive, where in a Hindu Chakra list, we find Vairocani used at the root, they skip the head and replace it with a Cinnamasta scripture:


(1) adhAmnAya gaNeCa vairocanI svatantra bhairava AdhAra cakra vidhi (2) svAdhiSThAna brahmA pUrNeCvarI svachanda bhairava pUrvAmnAya svAdhiSThAna cakra vidhi , (3) nArAyaNa CrIdakSiNakAlI aghora mahAkAla bhairava dakSiNAmnAya maNipUra cakra vidhi , (4) CrI mahArudra CrIkubjikA mahAkAla bhairava paCcimAmnAya anAhata cakra vidhi , (5) CrIuttarAmnAya jIvAtmane CrI guhyeCvarI CrIcaNDakApAli bhairava viCuddha cakra vidhi , (6) CrI chinnamastA paTala

At each chakra there is a god and goddess pair, and a type of Bhairava:

1. Original family Ganesha Vairocani, Svatantra Bhairava, root chakra
2. East family Brahma Purnesvari, Svachanda Bhairava, sacral chakra
3. Southern family Narayana Daksinakali, Aghora Mahakala Bhairava, solar plexus
4. Western family Rudra Kubjika, Mahakala Bhairava, heart
5. Northern family Jivatman Guhyeshvari, Canda Kapali Bhairava, throat
6. Cinnamasta


Buddhism has Skandhas, and it does not "start" in the root chakra. At a high level, Milarepa for example has a similar six chakra system where each one is the domain of a major tantra. For most purposes, as devotees, we would only be concerned with *one* chakra in the first place, which *would* become inhabited by Vairocani if successful. In order to do this, we are talking about changes in "states of being" as discovered by the manipulation of prana. It has no other meaning. So there is no reason to draw too big of an intellectual map that applies to experiences you cannot have. This is all "graded" or "staged", not by intelligence, but by performance.


On the objective plane:


Pavamana is another son of Atharvan and the vehicles of Dhisnis are Krtikka.

It is now however that Tvastr as Citra defines the beginning of the Year, where the Aswins are found.

If nothing else, I think you have to say this marked a shift in calendar making or time keeping. It probably resembles the end of the Age of Taurus.



Towards the objective being merely a laboratory for the subjective:


Aurobindo discovers "symbolic inner offering" in RV I.162 and IV.39.

"Horse sacrifice" is *only* in I.162-3 by Dirghatamas.

Tvastr is importantly operative there.




In another major article that gets twisted around, I see other attributions of Tvastr to "Purusha Suktam", which cannot possibly be RV X.90, but is said to have equivalents in:


Shukla Yajurveda Samhita 30.1-16 and Atharva Veda Samhita 19.6.

AV is the same one as X.90 that has Viraj, but not Tvastr.


Tvastr is part of the pantheon from YV Kanda I, new and full moon offerings:

Dhatr is the year

which otherwise focuses Pusan and Vishnu. Less so the Aswins.

It has something resembling a lineage:


d O Brihaspati, guard wealth.
e Let thy oblations taste sweet.
f O god Tvastr make pleasant our possessions.
g Stay, ye wealthy ones,
h Thou art the birthplace of Agni.
i Ye are the two male ones.
k Thou art Urvaçi, thou art Ayu, thou art Pururavas.


He is in Kanda II, "special animal sacrifices":

He who desires cattle should sacrifice with the Çitra (offering); Çitra is this (earth); in that in this (earth) all things are produced, thereby is this (earth) variegated (citra); he who knowing thus sacrifices with the Çitra desirous of cattle is propagated with offspring, with cattle, with pairings. With the offering to Agni he strews, with that to Soma he impregnates seed, the seed impregnated Tvastr develops into forms; there are (offerings) to Sarasvant and Sarasvati; that is the divine pair; verily in the midst he bestows upon him a divine pair, for growth, for propagation. There is an oblation to Sinivali; Sinivali is speech, speech is growth; verily he approaches speech and growth. The last is to Indra, and thereby there is a pair. Seven are these offerings, the tame animals are seven, the wild seven; the metres are seven, for the winning of both. Then he offers these oblations; these gods are the lords of growth; verily they bestow growth upon him, he grows with offspring and cattle; moreover in that he offers these oblations, (they serve) for support.

Viçvarupa, son of Tvastr, was the domestic priest of the gods, and the sister's son of the Asuras. He had three heads, one which drank Soma, one Sura, and one which ate food.

Astrologically, Tvastr is Citra, which is Spica.

Going along in YV, there are other mentions such as:


...the (cup) for Pusan, the (cup) for (Tvastr) with the wives (of the gods)...

The gods sought to slay Tvastr; he went to the wives, they would not give him up...


I don't yet know how it works because there is another index of its 40 Books.


That's not a Purusha Suktam because it is XXX Human Sacrifice:



for Venality an Ayogû


Ayogavo?

Even better, he made an Index of Rg and Atharvaveda Hymns used here, and, this shows there's no X.90 in it. That one is very good to see how YV is built.

Ah, ok. The "Kandas" are the Taittiriya Samhita or Krsna Yajurveda.

The "Books" are Sukla Yajurveda.


Someone would have to explain better to me how Purusha Suktam is there.


There is also much confusion about whether he or his son is Viswakarman, which is equally confused amongst Gotras as Viswakarma and Vishwabrahmins:

Yes, what you said is absolutely right. Origin of the viswakarmas/viswabrahmins is mentioned in Vedas. Krushna yajurveda taitriya samhita 4.3.3 mentioned that pancha rishis(sanatana, sanaga, suparna,abhuvana,prathna) who are moola purushas and gotras of viswabrahmins, are origined from 5 faces of Virat viswakarma.

Who is viswakarma?

According to viswakarma sukta of rigveda, purusha sukta of krushna yajurveda and numerous number of mensions in Vedas, Virat viswakarma is the origin of the universe. He is aja(having no birth) ,he is svayambhu (created by himself) and he created the whole universe.

So,as per the Vedas viswabrahmins are Brahmin.

Because of the reason that they are born from the purusha (viswakarma) they are also called as pourusheya Brahmins.

But some pseudo Brahmins created a story to suppress viswabrahmins and to increase the authority of themselves.

This is, of course, used in the Metallurgical thesis:


Tvaṣṭā, Tvaṣṭṛ, ancestor of Meluhha artificers

The Meluhhan is accompanied by a lady carrying a kamaṇḍalu.



So he says. Another time it was a "liquid measure standard". Either is potentially an item of Tvastr's.

He brings up Viswakarman X.81-82:


He alone assigns the names to the Gods.


Then there is a strand of multiple Tvastr references from each book. It definitely increases at the end. But we are also led to something that sounds like the Puranic story.


RV 10.17.1-2:

Tvastar prepares the bridal of his Daughter: all the world hears the tidings and assembles.
But Yama's Mother, Spouse of great Vivasvat, vanished as she was carried to her dwelling.
From mortal men they hid the Immortal Lady, made one like her and gave her to Vivasvat.
Saranyu brought to him the Asvin brothers, and then deserted both twinned pairs of children.



So, turning to the resources, Sayana adds the legend to this line. It continues:


“The gods concealing the immortal (Saraṇyū) for the sake of mortals and having formed her, gave her to Vivasvat. She bore the two Aśvins when this had happened and then Saraṇyū gave birth to two twins.”


Then it changes.

This and the following three ṛcas are to be recited at the funeral rites of a man who has been duly initiated, dīkṣita:


“May the discriminating Pūṣan, whose cattle are never lost, the protector of all beings, transfer you hence (to a better world); may he give you to these Pitṛs; may Agni (give) you to the beneficent gods.”

Āyu

“May the all-pervading Vāyu protect you, may Pūṣan (preserve) you, (going) first on the excellent path (to heaven); may the divine Savitā place you, where the virtuous abide, whither they have gone.”

“Pūṣan knows all these regions severally; met him conduct us by (the path) that is most free from peril; let him precede us, who is the giver of prosperity, endowed with radiance, accompanied by all pious men, ever vigilant, and knowing our (deserts).”

“Pūṣan has been born on the best path of paths, on the best path of heaven on the best path of earth, he goes forward and backward over both (worlds), the assemblies longed for by all, discriminating (the merits of the dead).”


Pūṣan has been born: i.e., manifested in order to conduct men after death to their destination, according to their merits.



A meritorious life was purified by the waters of:


Divine Sarasvatī, who rides in the same chariot with the Pitṛs


She has a few lines, and then it is Soma:


“The Soma has risen to the earthly and heavenly (worlds), both this visible world, and that which(existed) before (it); I offer that Soma flowing through the common region (of heaven and earth) after the sacrifice(offered by the) seven (officiating priests).”

“Soma, which escapes (from the hide), your filaments which let fall from the hands (of the priestescape) from the vicinity of the plural nks (of the press), or (from the hand) of the Adhvaryu, or from the filter; I offer itall with my mind (to Agni) with the word vaṣat.”

“Your juice and your filaments, (Soma), which escape, and which fall from the ladle on this side or on that; may this divine Bṛhaspati sprinkle it for our enrichment.”

“(Waters)! the plants flourish by means of water my prayer is effectual through water; the essence of water is vigorous through water; purify me with it.”


The story is only mentioned here; elsewhere the word is generic, as in a passage to Visvedeva:


“And for the contentment of this victorious (Varuṇa), praising (him) without an effort, we solicit this (of him), (that) his progeny, a swift horse, (may be ours), and you, (Varuṇa), are wise, and (are occupied) in procuring us food.”

saraṇyur asya



Having to do with Rain:

haryaśva yajñaiḥ saraṇyubhir



Here again, it makes more sense to me not to assume a Puranic story was "started" by two lines in a hymn, but, rather, the presence of the two lines reflects condensing an existing story.

Tvastr's wife is obviously not named there.

As hinted above, if we look around the quotes, if we break them up so we can see them, it will help.

It is hard to miss the fact that Tvastr's wife is not really named, but, whenever there is a group of goddesses, they seem to go to him. I do not have a familiarity of anyone else being spoken of this way. But Tvastr is routinely among women or perhaps Stri Gana as we will find several times.


II. 31 Rodasi replaces dyavaprithvi:


Or may this Tvastar, God who rules the world with power, one-minded with the Goddesses speed forth our car;
Ila and Bhaga the celestial, Earth and Heaven, Pusan, Purandhi, and the Asvins, ruling Lords.


II.36:


Tvastar, well-content be joyful in the juice with Gods and Goddesses in gladsome company.

VI.50 Apam Napat:


May this God Savitar, the Lord, the Offspring of Waters, pouring down his dew be gracious,
And, with the Gods and Dames accordant, Tvastar; Dyaus with the Gods and Prthivi with oceans.

VII.35 Rudrebhir:


Be the God Indra with the Vasus friendly, and, with Adityas, Varuna who blesseth.
Kind, with the Rudras, be the Healer Rudra, and, with the Dames, may Tvastar kindly listen.


X.64:


And let Brhaddiva, the Mother, hear our call, and Tvastar, Father, with the Goddesses and Dames.
Rbhuksan, Vaja, Bhaga, and Rathaspati, and the sweet speech of him who labours guard us well!

O Maruts, do ye never, never recollect and call again to mind this our relationship?
When next we meet together at the central point, even there shall Aditi confirm our brotherhood.

X.66 Rudrebhir:


May Indra with the Vasus keep our dwelling safe, and Aditi with Adityas lend us sure defence.
May the God Rudra with the Rudras favour us, and Tvastar with the Dames further us to success.


X.X:


gárbhe nú nau janitā́ dámpatī kar devás tváṣṭā savitā́ višvárūpaḥ
nákir asya prá minanti vratā́ni véda nāv asyá pṛthivī́ utá dyáuḥ

Even in the womb God Tvastar, Vivifier, shaping all forms, Creator, made us consorts.
None violates his holy ordinances: that we are his the heavens and earth acknowledge.


Elsewhere he has some standard aspects and maybe a few more things.


IV.33:

Four beakers let us make, thus spoke the youngest. Tvastar approved this rede of yours, O Rbhus.

V.41:

You I extol, the nourishers of heroes bringing you gifts, Vastospati and Tvastar-


V.46:

And may the Rbhus and the Asvins, Tvastar and Vibhvan remember us so that we may have wealth.


X.8:

Then Trita slew the foe sevenrayed-, threeheaded-, and freed the cattle of the Son of Tvastar.



X.53:


Tvastar, most deft of workmen, knew each magic art, bringing most blessed bowls...

X.65:

Tvastar and Vayu, those who count as Rbhus, both celestial Hotar priests-, and Dawn


X.70:

Since thou, God Tvastar, hast made beauty perfect, since thou hast been the Angirases' Companion


X.92:


God Tvastar Wealth bestower-, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise...


X.184:

MAY Visnu form and mould the womb, may Tvastar duly shape the forms...

VII.34:


What time our wives draw near to us, may he, lefthanded- Tvastar, give us hero sons.

May Tvastar find our hymn acceptable, and may Aramati, seeking wealth, be ours.

May he, with the Varutris, be our refuge, may bountiful Tvastar give us store of riches.



You notice when he shows up, you see less Indra and more Vishnu.

Again we think this means raw power overtaken by a type of Dharmic awareness.


The opposite appears to be a fall, into a well, equivalent to a punishment "cast in a well". This seems to have happened to a Mitanni woman. I don't know how many abandoned wells they have. I would not want to drink from one like that. In the psychological view, it is an unpleasant enough nightmare that I would consider it a hell I'd rather avoid. "Down" to the center of the earth, or, center of the galaxy, is the most unfortunate direction.


At this point, we have found something different that is para-Biblical:


Moses-like, Bharadwaj-or-Dirghatamas was raised by Maruts

Christ-like, Sunhashepa was led to the sacrificial post, but liberated by Varuna


Of course, it is a little different since "new" actually does seem to be a staple ingredient, you wind up with something like Idaspati and a slightly different vision.

The Rg Veda definitely contains the Puranic myth of Tvastr's Honey Doctrine spoken by Dadhyan, who is already invoked first and in every line by Vasistha's VII.44, particularly with Ila Devi. This sounds meaningful to the lineage of Aila Vartas or that the "Lunar Dynasty" is perhaps really the "Earth Dynasty". The two would then be Mother Earth and Father Sun, as most of the material sounds. Nevertheless, Dadhyan does not get attribution for this hymn (lingokta?).

The specific scene about Horse Head is at the end of Kaksivan's Aswins I.117.




Tvastr, father of Saranyu Samjna, is the beginning of X.17 by:


devaśravā yāmāyanaḥ



I personally find those three to be the main core of all doctrines.

I did not know it was Vedic.

That is, the two references of Dadhyan and then Saranyu Samjna.


I am asking questions from the view of "inner meaning", while we observe the other tracts have the meanings of metallurgy, agriculture, zoomorphism, history, linguistics, and so on. We have to unpack the dense, spammy metallurgical version and not ask questions about Germany right now. I am trying to prevent projecting bias over anything, and, the scripture turns out to house the yogic view at least at par with anything else.

It seems to me that Speech uses battles, priests, deities and so on, to say what it wants to say.

There must be objective connections, but that is not really what it is about. For instance, Mandala X fails to represent any type of statecraft as is found in any other cultures. You could easily have "compiled" it as dynasty lineages or something that would promote a bloodline or particular kingdom or whatever, but at most we might be able to establish a Sanskrit link to only one of them.


Tvastr and his related group could have a parallel, associative family encoding into X.X by a woman:

yamī vaivasvatī


which is really a dialogue between her and her partner Yama, written back and forth as if they are each others' deities. And this is humorous, Yama is definitely "restraint" who negativizes the whole idea and tells her to pick someone else. The girl's half of the conversation:


“(Yami speaks). I invite my friend to friendship, having come over the vast and desert ocean; may Vedhas, after reflecting, place in the earth the offspring (of you) the father, endowed with excellent qualities.”

adhi kṣami (upon the earth) = in my womb


“(Yami speaks). The immortals take pleasure in (a union) like this which is forbidden to every mortal; let your mind then concur with mine, and as the progenitor (of all) was the husband (of his daughter), do you enjoy my person.”

“(Yami speaks). The divine omniform generator Tvaṣṭā, the progenitor, made us two husband and wife, even in the womb: none frustrate his undertaking; earth and heaven are conscious of this our (union).”

“(Yami speaks). The desire of Yama has approached me Yamī, to lie with him in the same bed; I will abandon my person as a wife to her husband; let us exert ourselves in union like the two wheels of a wagon.”

“(Yami speaks). To him (Yam) let every worshipper sacrifice both day and night, on him let the eye of the Sun repeatedly rise; (for him may) the kindred pair (day and night unite) with heaven and earth. Yama will adhere to the non- affinity of Yama.”

“(Yami speaks). Is he a brother whose sister has no lord? Is she a sister (whose brother) misfortune (Nrrti) approaches? Overcome by desire, I strongly urge this one request; unite your person with mine.”

“(Yami speaks). Alas, Yama, you are feeble; we understand not your mind or your heart. Some other female embraces you as a girth a horse, or as a creeper a tree.”




There, Tvastr is not doing Horse Head Rite, in fact that was a rather personal description.

This gives the sense that Tvastr and Pusan are the guides of life and death.




Because this is strewn through the books, you could literally arrange it in order starting with what we found for:


Srnjaya, Emperor Bharata and Sage Atharvan


followed by:

Iterations of Tvastr


because they are in all books.


The idea is a cumulative snap-fit outline from IVC through the Vedas.

The timing is a question of perhaps after Rimush, the defeat of Sambar leads to Yalambar, the first Kirat king of Nepal. Here is a highlight for Bharata Puru Kings in total.

Probably completed by around the beginning of the historical Mitanni, what exactly happened to one of the latest Vedic kings, Santanu. Truly the father of Veda Vyasa?


By Book Ten, Tvastr is quite synthetic, with the last lovers' quarrel thrown in by the Yamayana clan, who has at least six more sages as authors here. One appears patriarchal, having in fact three names on top of the clan name. His hymn is practically about fathoming his names in X.144:




Suparṇa, the son of the Tārk.sya.

suparṇastārkṣyaputra

ahiśuvaḥ = name of an asura

ghṛṣuḥ śyenāya kṛtvana āsu svāsu vaṃsagaḥ | ava dīdhed ahīśuvaḥ ||


“The soma whom Suparṇa, the son of the falcon, brought from afar, the bestower of many boons, who is the stimulator of Ahi.”


Impetuous Ahisuva, a bull among cows of his,
looked down upon the restless Hawk.

"Bull" translated from:

vaṃsagaḥ


For his third name:

ayam asmāsu kāvya ṛbhur vajro dāsvate | ayam bibharty ūrdhvakṛśanam madam ṛbhur na kṛtvyam madam ||



This, adorable among us and brilliant, is a thunderbolt for the donor

he cherishes the exhilarating (worshipper) ūrdhvakṛśana, as Ṛbhu (cherishes) the exhilarating celebrator of holy rites.



Ūrdhvakṛśana (ऊर्ध्वकृशन).—a. having the sharp qualities stirred up (Soma) effervescing (?)

(ūrdhva) (a beverage) whose pungent or strong part is on the surface (said of the Soma)


More generically:


Here, by us, for the worshipper, is the wise bolt that works with skill.
It brings the bubbling beverage as a dexterous man brings the effectual strong drink.






So we are left holding an empty bag of "a supreme god", although the doctrine is that Agni is the Supreme Priest. That means an intercessory. The deities themselves, though honored, are also employed, at one point they are called "waiters". You are trying to summon them and have a drink, and then you are supposed to rise into the next two worlds, Bhuvar and Svar. The point remains that in Svar Loka are Indra and the Thirty-three, for whom the Eight Vasus are fairly well set, the Twelve Adityas may group Pusan and Vishnu into pre-determined roles but some of the others are variable, and the Eleven Rudras have who knows how many kinds. The two remaining are sometimes said to be the Aswins, or Prajapati and Manu, etc.

There is an incredible clash between Indra and Tvastr and this is not about racial animosity or armed robbery, you might say it is how to get the Aswins to work right.


Most of the translators call that Immortality, although Deathlessness also sounds right.

We don't literally know they are "horsemen", but it does mean they go fast. Maybe the horse is named for the Aswins. In Yami's speech we saw that in the last book, a two-wheel wagon would still represent energy. The Veda describes what a Celestial Chariot or Ratha is.

If we parsed Tvastr by book in chronological order, that would be the end. We saw an occult statement on him in Book Seven. If we revert to the most primordial level, then, let's say it would take something to understand a single line in VI.16 by Bharadwaj:


“The sage, Atharvan, extracted you from upon the lotus-leaf, the head, the support of the universe.”

“The ṛṣi, Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, kindled the slayer of Vṛtra, the destroyer of the cities of Asuras.”


The translation is obsolete, because not only asuras means deities, that has not even been said here. It is actually Indra's personal name:


puraṃdaram ||


usually transcribed Purandar.

Obviously the line would be meaningless without knowing about Horse Head. We just suggested it may not be a physical actual horse as we know it. Just has the guy's name. I don't think he is making it up because he is at least third-generation of something which probably has a folk background beyond that.

That's the freaking Indra, often called Indu, who has disappeared here in the example of the first recorded Sage addressing him personally by his main role in the Veda. The scripture is not about the kings. They are simply named in passing, as the opportunity to describe Indra's prowess.

Moreover, this distinguishes him from the "wrong ways" of "Indra worship" regularly said to be done by some.


Tvastr is only implied there, but, he is invoked throughout Book Six. If you are clever, you notice a kind of people who are going to come in with an Akkadian name later on.



VI.47:

Indra moves multiform by his illusions; for his Bay Steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred.

Here Tvastar, yoking to the car the Bay Steeds, hath extended sway.

Gods, we have reached a country void of pasture the land, though spacious, was too small to hold us.
Brhaspati, provide in war for cattle; find a path, Indra, for this faithful singer.

Day after day far from their seat he drove them, alike, from place to place, those darksome creatures.
The Hero slew the meanly-huckstering Dasas, Varcin and Sambara, where the waters gather.


VI.49:

I commend with new hymns...

May Herald Agni, fulgent, bring for worship Tvastar adored, in homes and swift to listen,
Glorious, first to share, the life-bestower, the ever active God, fair-armed, fair-handed.


VI.50:

May this God Savitar, the Lord, the Offspring of Waters, pouring down his dew be gracious,
And, with the Gods and Dames accordant, Tvastar; Dyaus with the Gods and Prthivi with oceans.

May Aja-Ekapad and Ahibudhnya, and Earth and Ocean hear our invocation;
All Gods who strengthen Law, invoked and lauded, and holy texts uttered by sages, help us.


VI.52

May Indra, with the Marut host, with Tvastar, Mitra, Aryaman,
Accept the laud and these our gifts.



As you can tell...this is what the composers of the Samans were doing. Carving one to maybe four or five lines from various Riks.

Tvastr will show up even more in the next book.



III.4:

May Bharati with all her Sisters, Ila accordant with the Gods, with mortalls Agni,
Sarasvati with all her kindred Rivers, come to this grass, Three Goddesses, and seat them.

Well pleased with us do thou O God, O Tvastar, give ready issue to our procreant vigour,
Whence springs the hero, powerful, skilled in action, lover of Gods, adjuster of the press-stones.


III.7:

Strength-giving streams bear hither him eternal, fain to support the mighty work of Tvastar.
He, flashing in his home with all his members, hath entered both the worlds as they were single.


They know the red Bull's blessing, and are joyful under the flaming-coloured Lord's dominion:
They who give shine from heaven with fair effulgence, whose lofty song like Ila must be honoured.

Yea, by tradition from the ancient sages they brought great strength from the two mighty Parents,
To where the singer's Bull, the night's dispeller, after his proper law hath waxen stronger.

Seven holy singers guard with five Adhvaryus the Bird's beloved firmly-settled station.
The willing Bulls, untouched by old, rejoice them: as Gods themselves the ways of Gods they follow.

The many seek the great Steed as a stallion: the reins obey the Lord of varied colour.


III.54:


Deft worker, skiful-handed, helpful, holy, may Tvastar, God, give us these things to aid us,
Take your delight, Ye Rbhus joined with Pusan: ye have prepared the rite with stones adjusted.

ūrdhva-grāvāṇaḥ


Borne on their flashing car, the spear-armed Maruts, the nimble Youths of Heaven, the Sons of Order,
The Holy, and Sarasvati, shall hear us: ye Mighty, give us wealth with noble offspring.

ṛṣṭi-mantaḥ

To Visnu rich in marvels, songs And praises shall go as singers on the road of Bhaga,-
The Chieftain of the Mighty Stride, whose Mothers, the many young Dames, never disregard him.


III.55:


Tvastar the God, the omniform. Creator, begets and feeds mankind in various manner.
His, verily, arc all these living creatures. Great is the Gods' supreme dominion.

devás tváṣṭā savitā́ višvárūpaḥ pupóṣa prajā́ḥ

The two great meeting Bowls hath he united: each of the Pair is laden with his treasure.
The Hero is renowned for gathering riches. Great is the Gods' supreme and sole dominion.

camvā



You have all that before there are a few more sentences about Tvastr and Horse Head in Book Seven.


Here is an idea of why the Adityas are a little different:

Sidereal Zodiac DOES NOT EXIST.

Indian Zodiac is called Vedic Zodiac in internet. Normal Indian astrologers dont use the term Vedic Astrology. They simply use the word astrology. The word Vedic is used just to give an emotional pull to Indians. Its a marketing strategy. Thats all.

Zodiac originated in Iraq. It was Tropical. Traditional Indian astrology does not believe in zodiac. They believe in Nakshatras.

Sidereal Zodiac was invented. If you visit any India based sidereal astrology website, you will see that they try to emotionally manipulate people via religious catch words, sell stones (push is the right word), ask to do certain activities like feeding cows, dogs, goats etc and abstaining from meat and other types of food on certain days and eating certain food on certain days. Its just business and manipulation.

Now, dont confuse Sidereal astrology with Sidereal Zodiac. Sidereal Astrology is a very vast subject. Indian Astrology is also very vast. However, Zodiac itself is neither sidereal, nor Indian.

Also:

First of all, ask them to plot horoscope manually without software, many of them wll ran away, let alone discuss about Ayanamsa. Ask these Kaliyug Parashars, how Ayanamsa say Lahiri derived, what are the Trignometric formulas involved, many will showa blank face. Kaliyug Jaimini dances on Softwares and even can't analyze is marriage promiseed or progeny blessed, let alone they can't vet birth-time checking through our Sages methods. These are Fundamentals.

But this is Tvastr:


If you use Citra Paksha it suits. Here we need to understand why we need to take Citra as a Yogatāra. Paksha means opposite here it's supplementary i.e., 180° to Citra constellation. That's where Kāla Puruśa kundali starts. (Aświni Nakṣatram)


Citrā (चित्रा, ‘bright’) is the beautiful star, α Virginis. It is mentioned in a legend of Indra in the Taittirīya-brāhmaṇa, and in that of the ‘two divine dogs’ (divyau śvānau) in the Śatapatha-brāhmaṇa.


|23°20' Kanyā| – |6°40' Tulā|
Kanyā (कन्या, “girl”) corresponds with Virgo and Tulā (तुला, “balance”) corresponds to Libra.


The body is described, starting from the “bulb” (kanda), the place in which the subtle channels (nāḍī) originate, located between anus and penis (28–9). The three principal channels are iḍā (left), piṅgalā (right) and suṣumṇā (in the centre of the spine and the head). Inside the suṣumṇā is citrā, a channel connecting to the place on the top of the skull called the brahmarandhra (30–4).

Note: The citrā, also called the citriṇī, is inside the suṣumṇā. It is in fact the citrā which resembles a string of lotuses, since the lotuses are strung on it (cf. Ṣaṭcakranirūpaṇa, verse 2).




To ameliorate the Zodiacal rebuke, the major difference is in the sign Gemini and the use of decanates. It was not Tropical until so converted. India probably did absorb some amount of western Sign-making, but no, the closest approximation is just twelve slices defined by Citra (Spica).


Aries is exceedingly faint, no normal person would ever start a year on that.

Krtikka--Pleiades matched the equinox, and, when that slipped, now just use Citra, and the equinox can occur wherever it wants. It is among the most powerful stars and you are looking for dawn at its opposite.





I am always ready to recant anything that does not bear out. We grabbed a reference for Bharadvaj saying that Srnjaya transmitted the Purana to him. This is not so following the references:


III. 47. 46 -- nothing


IV. 4. 63. = Tṛṇañjaya, before Daksa, with Dvaipayana being the obvious human transmitter of Purana.


There probably are some who are not original.


Srnjaya's name is used twice in Vrsni Dynasty with Syamantaka Jewel and an extraneous Sahadeva.


III.61 Music has a line of Srnjaya, Sahadeva, Krsasva, Somadatta.


Rg Veda almost resembles this for Yayati:


the daughter of Mitrajyoti and the intelligent Maruta

8. Sṛñjaya, the son of Pratipakṣa, became well-known. Jaya was the son of Sṛñjaya. Vijaya was born to him.

9. Jaya the second, was the son of Vijaya. Haryaśvaka is remembered as his son. The valorous king Sahaḍeva was the son of Haryaśva.


And does not resemble a section on King Marutta and another Srnjaya, dealing with foreign countries and saying Afghan horses are excellent.


The Purana does tell us this about the worlds:



He who conquers it completely is called Samrāṭ (Emperor).

17. Indeed this world is Samrāṭ. The firmament is remembered as Virāṭ. That (other) world is remembered as Svarāṭ.



There may also be a flaky name thrown in the "first men", Priyavrata and the grandsons of Manu:


He gave to Kuru the sub-continent that was to the north of Śṛṅgavān. Similarly, he allotted to Bhadrāśva the sub-continent Mālyavat.



So, we think bhadr- may have been swapped in for vadhr-, which may be understandable following the analysis by Talageri:

The Samvaraṇa Bharatas are an invention in order to force-fit various Puranic kings into the paradigm of Rigvedic history.

As I have repeatedly been pointing out since my third book (2008), the -aśva names in the Rigveda are found only in the New Rigveda, where they are very common, and they are also very common in all later Vedic and Sanskrit texts: but they are completely missing in the Old Rigveda. They are one of the huge list of names and name types which are found only in the New Rigveda (and subsequent texts) and in the Avesta and the Mitanni king-lists of West Asia, but are completely missing in the Old Rigveda, and form a vital part of the evidence showing that the pre-Avestan Iranians and the ancestors of the Mitanni kings emigrated from India after the period of composition of the Old Rigveda.

The word vadhryaśva in VI.61.1 is not a name but an epithet meaning "sterile/impotent": there were no -aśva names in the Old Rigveda, and the word etymologically, as indicated by the accent, falls in a separate category from all other actual -aśva names (all found in the New Rigveda), only paralleled by another opposite epithet vṛṣaṇaśva ("virile" used in two special contexts in the Rigveda, in I.51.13; VIII.20.10; in the first of which, in I.51.13, the person named is so virile that Indra himself seems to have converted himself into a woman, a weird myth not elaborated more in detail elsewhere).

This epithet is applied to Sṛñjaya, the father of Divodāsa, in the verse to emphasize that the impotent king, when he worshipped Sarasvati with all his being, was blessed with the birth of an illustrious son, Divodāsa. Exactly the same thing is repeated in the very next hymn in the Rigveda (in VI.62.7) in reference to vadhrimatī , "the wife of an impotent husband", where an exactly similar feat is attributed to the Aśvins, who, at the call of this lady (wife of Śayu), made her pregnant. This early theme in the oldest Book 6 is repeated in the case of various vadhrimatīs (or wives of impotent husbands) in the latest books who give birth to illustrious sons after being blessed by the Aśvins.

a respondant:

Srnjaya was not Divodasa's father and I will explain why I am so convinced about that. The identification of Divodasa as the son of Srnjaya rests on a misunderstanding of the referent of the name Divodasa in verses 22 and 23 of VI, 47. Verses 22-25 of this hymn form the danastuti of Prastoka Sarnjaya, the actual son of Srnjaya Daivavata, or at the very least a close descendant of his. Therefore, it is illogical to interpret the reference in verse 25 to the son of Srnjaya as a reference to anyone other than Prastoka Sarnjaya himself. Sayana confirms this in his bhashya, in which he states that the names Divodasa, Atithigva and Asvattha are used in reference to Prastoka.

Speaking of Prastoka, there is an interesting story about him and Abhyavarti Cayamana in Brihad-devata. It connects hymns VI, 27, 47 and 75 and relates how Bharadvaja and his son Payu helped the two of them overcome Varasikhas. In my opinion, the story seems plausible because Garga mentions his brother Payu, the composer of hymn 75, in his hymn 47, while Bharadvaja mentions Abhyavarti and Srnjaya (apparently an indirect reference to his son Prastoka).

It doesn't matter who is literally the father, it does not affect the chronology; all we want is a reasonably accurate list of original Bharata Puru kings.

The Puranic idea that Bharata = Pavamana Agni may still work, since we find that *some* of the main Puranic ideas *are* in the Rg Veda.

I would be prone to believe that the Ramayana really did happen somewhat shortly after Santanu.


Book Six has Hariyupiya and Sambar. If Kirat Dynasty in Nepal resulted from this, conventional estimates are:

ruling the Kathmandu Valley and surrounding regions from roughly 800 BCE ...


To be on the lenient side:

This statue is the earliest inscription found in Nepal following the inscriptions installed by Manadeva. It means Kirat dynastic reign was started in 1779 B. C.


Yogacara I would say mainly traces to Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, perhaps ca. 700 B. C. E., where, in a type of Atharva Veda manner, Tvastr is used with Honey Doctrine such as around II.5.17.


Yajnawalkya does no less than cohere to Tvastr after about fifteen places back in his personal
lineage:

...Ayāsya Āṅgirasa. He from Ābhūti Tvāṣṭra. He from Viśvarūpa Tvāṣṭra. He from the two Aśvins. The Aśvins from Dadhyac Ātharvaṇa. He from Atharvan Daiva. He from Mṛtyu Prādhvaṃsana. He from Pradhvaṃsana. Pradhvaṃsana from Ekarṣi. Ekarṣi from Viprachitti. Viprachitti from Vyaṣṭi. Vyaṣṭi from Sanāru. Sanāru from Sanātana. Sanātana from Sanaga. Sanaga from Parameṣṭhin (Virāj). Parameṣṭhin from Brahman (Hiraṇyagarbha). Brahman is self-born. Salutation to Brahman.!

Perhaps because Indra is more famous, Tvastr is mostly just known from Vayu Purana as:



85. The three-headed Visvarupa was the great son of
Tvastr. Visvakarman is remembered as the younger twin-
brother of Visvarupa.


Aside from Horse Head Rite, he has a multi-faceted existence:


6. Varuna’s wife was the daughter of the ocean and was
called “Sunodevi”. She had two sons Kali and Vaidya and a
daughter Surasundari.

Himsa, the daughter of Tvastr, was the eldest wife
of Kali.


We don't pay much attention to this branch because:


8. When the subjects became desirous of eating, they ate
each other. Devouring each other, they perished.



Intricately, Varuna Bhrgu includes the Rudras and Parasurama:


Bhṛgu was born again in Vaivasvata Manvantara. This second birth was at the famous Brahmayajña of Varuṇa. He was reborn from fire, as Brahmā’s son. This child who was born from Brahmā’s semen which fell in the sacrificial fire, was brought up by Varuṇa and his wife Carṣaṇī. Consequently Bhṛgu is referred to as "Varuṇaputra" and "Carṣaṇīputra" in some Purāṇas. Since he was born at Varuṇa’s yāga he is sometimes called "Vāruṇī Bhṛgu".

he has the [patronymic] Vāruṇi and is the supposed author of [Ṛg-veda ix, 65; x, 19]




Tvastr from Venus in the Brahmanda Purana Bhrgu and Angiras:


Triśiras alias Viśvarūpa was the great (elder) son of Tvaṣṭṛ. He was born of Yaśodharā, daughter of Virocana. He became very famous. He who is remembered as Viśvakarman was the younger brother of Viśvarūpa.

Divyā give birth to the son of Bhṛgu. He was the most excellent among those who are conversant with Brahman (Veda). He was Śukra, the preceptor of the Devas (?) and the Asuras. He was the planet, the most excellent of the wise sages. Śukra himself was Uśanas. He was always known by the name of Kāvya.

77. The mental daughter of the Manes named Somapās (imbibers of the Soma juice) was well-known by the name of Gau. She became the wife of Śukra and gave birth to his four sons.

78. They were Tvaṣṭṛ, Varatrin, Śaṇḍa and Marka. In splendour they resembled the Sun and in prowess they were as good as god Brahmā.



Also the Sun in Vayu Purana Adityas:


66-67. The follwing are remembered as the twelve Adityas,
the sons of Kasyapa: Dhata, Aryama, Mitra, Varuna, Ariisa,
Bhaga, Indra, Vivasvan, Pusan, the tenth one Parjanya, Tvastr
and Visnu the last but not the least (i.e. really the great) .






And from Jupiter:


15. Brhaspati’s sister was a noble lady (named) Yogasiddha.
Observing celibacy and being detached, she roamed over the
whole universe.

16. She became the wife of the eighth of the Vasus, vizi
Prabhasa. Visvakarma, the creator of arts and crafts was born
as her son.

17. (He was known as) Tvastr. He created many forms. He
was the grandson of Dharma. He was liberal-minded. He was
the creator of thousands of arts and crafts. He was the Architect
of Devas.

18. He made aerial chariots for all the Devas. Human beings
maintain their livelihood by following the craftsmanship of that
noble soul.

19. Tvastr’s wife was the famous daughter of Prahlada and
was the sister of Virocana and the mother of Trisiras.

20. Maya, the son of the intelligent preceptor of Devas in
craftsmanship of all kinds, is remembered as Visvakarma also.

21. His younger sister, the daughter of Tvastr (originally)
famous by the name of Surenu, became the wife of the Sun and
was well known as Samjna.




Cosmically:



The Sages enquired :

25. Why is (the Sun) called Martanda by learned men?
Why did she, in the form of a mare, give birth to them through
the nostrils ? We wish to know this. Please explain this to us
who ask you.


Suta said :

26. Fora long time, the egg did not break (did not get
hatched). It was broken open by Tvastr. On seeing it, Kas'yapa
became sad as he feared that the foetus was killed.

27. When the egg was broken into two parts, he looked into
it and said to Tvastr, “This is certainly not an (ordinary)egg”.
(Then to the child he said) “O Sinless one, be Martanda”.

28. The father affectionately said—“Indeed this (child) in
the egg is not dead”. On hearing his words, the relevancy of the
name has been understood.

29. Since he was addressed by the father, “Be born of the
dead (broken) egg”, when the egg was broken, Vivasvan is cal-
led Martanda by those who know the Puranas.

30. Henceforth I shall mention the progeny of Martanda
Vivasvan. Formerly three children were born of his wife Samjna
to Savitr-


Tvastr was then permitted to change the form.

With the concurrence of the Sun-god (Martanda Vivasvan),
Tvastr mounted him on the wheel and whetted his brilliance.
Then the brilliance had pleasant refulgence due to reduction in
dazzle.

75. The refulgence became very pleasing to behold. What
was inauspicious before shone splendidly. Then (the Sun) made
use of Yogic power and saw his wife in the form of a mare.


Saturn comes out of this story:


Their brother SanaiScara attained the status of a planet.
With the (chopped off) brilliance (of the Sun) Tvastr made
Visnu’s discus.


Completely interwoven with Saranyu there.

Those are "in addition" to the legends about Horse Head and rivalry with Indra.

The written Purana suffers a lacuna of some two thousand years from Rg Veda.

However we would certainly suggest a continuity from Devi Suktam in RV X --> Durga Suktam (Upanishadic) --> Candi Path or Durga Saptashati, Puranic.


This is because the same thing is in Buddhism. It goes back through all this, and we still find Honey as a theme through IVC and even Bhimbetka.

Obviously one cannot just pin Tvastr's name to Rock Art, but you can line up the Rg Veda Mandalas chronologically with Tvastr as a guide, and, that is also appropriate for the Age of Aries. Not because of that particular constellation, but because of Tvastr--Citra--Spica.


One might be able to pick up a piece:

RV III 48 2 makes the situation rather direct when it is stated that it is in Indra’s Father’s Dwelling where the administration of Soma has taken place … the same space, I would contend, referred to as Tvastr’s House in a number of other RV Hymnals.

And it is also quite feasible to infer that the Cup of Tvastr … i.e. that which is supposed to bear the Soma – means the Moon.

A few images and attributes.


Subconsciously, perhaps, Vairocani is already very popular:


Another form of Vajrayogini may be accompanied by other aspects of herself, such as Vajravairocani (She Who Reveals), coloured yellow, like the all-illuminating sun, or Vajravarnani (She Who Colours), coloured green, symbolizing the widest range of perception and the fact that man’s view is “coloured.”







There are many pages that admire this hypostasis, which typically have the same flaw. This is mantra. It starts in a basic form and increases. That is why there are many forms. Vairocani is an extremely dynamic process. Most of these articles are not aware that Vajrayogini was established in Bengal and almost immediately in Nepal in the 600s.

We already have a thread for Buddhist Yoga; here, we want to examine Veda in a respectful light. It has been shown one way as an evolution of the Aswattha Tree, as if from Nausharo pottery, but I do not think anyone has enquired of it in the view of Tvastr.


More generally, or to be as all-inclusive as possible, the overall guide must be Honey:


At Bhimbetka, one finds Honey laced into the mythic themes much as in IVC; here, painting was almost certainly ritualized.

Later, there is Madhubani as painting in Mithila.

Bhimbetka has multiple scenes, such as figure 30.7 in a recent summary.

Tvastr's Honey is the Upanishadic "secret", to which, perhaps:

In other hymns in the Rig Veda horse heads flowed magically with honey.

Chappelle 2021 on the science of Vak:


This thunder is the honey of all beings, and all beings are the honey of this
thunder. The radiant and immortal person in thunder and, in the case of
the body, the radiant and immortal person connected with sound and tone
- they are both one’s self. It is the immortal; it is brahman; it is the Whole.


That is in conjunction with these first Vedic passages being Om mantras, and the so to speak arising of Vak Devi. The Sarasvati River, affiliated to the son of Agni, Samsya, who loved sixteen rivers having the Dhisnis as his abodes, and Krttika as the vehicles of Dhisnis, becomes symbolized internally by Vak. This is what we are saying goes forward in Devi Suktam.


Durga Suktam is from Mahanarayana Upanishad, which really upholds a Narayana and Rudra equilibrium. It combines multiple Vedic and Upanishadic sources. From the condensed version on Beezone, it may be remarked where Tvastr stands in relation to the very first quote.



Paramatma-sukta or Hiranyagarbha-sukta – from Yajur-Veda-Samhita:

1.The universe arose from Visvakarman through water, earth, fire and other elements. He excelled Aditya, Indra and othergods. The sun called Tvasta rises in the morning embodying His brilliance. In the beginning of creation the mortal world enveloped in gloom received its divine brilliance from the sun shining in the glory of Paramatman.

2.I know this Great Person who is beyond ignorance and darkness and whose splendour is comparable to that of the sun. Knowing Him thus in this life itself, one transcends death. There is no other path leading to the attainment of liberation.


The subtle argument is found at the beginning of Durga Suktam in a version with Sanskrit and comments:


This stanza is the same as Rigveda I 99-1.

tāmagnivarṇāṁ tapasā jvalantīṁ vairocanīṁ karmaphaleṣu juṣṭām .
durgāṁ devīɱ śaraṇamahaṁ prapadye sutarasi tarase namaḥ .. 2..




II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme who manifests Himself manifoldly, who is the Power residing in actions and their fruits rendering them efficacious...



In other words, it is not clear to most reviewers that "vairocani" is either an unusual epithet, or, potentially, a name.

Durga's line has the power of "tara" or "crossing over to the other side".

The first line says Agni-colored Tapasi Blazing (vairocani) Fruit-of-effort.

Regardless of whether it is a name, vairocani is a product of Heat Yoga. Rather than sheer energy, it has an additional intellectual or yogic aspect. This property of Devi is what is emphasized here.

Tvastr simply proceeds through the Upanishadic and Puranic periods of literature accordingly.

[shaberon]

Indian physical history: IVC Seals and Rg Veda combined; Tvastr and Dharma




Let's do a reverse conjecture.

We know nothing of IVC verbally.

We know that physically, it represents a type of town plan found in various sizes over a large area, which used an identical set of seals for about 700 years. Then for 2-300 years the old set appears to have been replaced by an Eagle. But otherwise, almost nothing, if anything, in the world has the remarkable consistency of that first set. The idea of actually making them may have come from Elam. The language expressed by using animals as symbols is probably international. Indian Zebu Bull has been traded/interbred all the way to Ukraine by 3,000 B. C. E., and when we turn to the more detailed early written myths of places like Sumeria and Egypt, they both depend on the bull and lapis lazuli. Both of those were coming from the IVC.

In all other cases, if the presence of a language can be argued to be found where a culture is, that culture would be defined as the speaker of the language.

I don't think that would quite be correct, but more than likely, by a certain point, Sanskrit expands into the IVC area.

The same Rg Veda is found from Gujarat to Guhawati, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. It is practically identical and has not changed in over 3,000 years. Nothing in the world can really compete with that.

My personal motive was just the exegesis of Sanskrit Yogacara, and I find it is stacked with the first events in this "lost" history. While scanning around I landed on a Hindu forum running almost the same platform as Avalon, and I went through a whole page of confusion and dispute because people have no clue what "asura" means in the Rg Veda. Well, if you are Buddhist, you are in Angiras Gotra. Buddha was Angiras. My suggestion is we have thousands of years of exegesis flowing from what are merely names in the Old Books.


What we can do is take the physical time periods and mark paradigms, those examples where something is revealed for the first time.

We are relegated to drawing from the work of others, and, there are several kinds which follow various schools of thought, we have posted here or there. It still includes the nineteenth-century Aryan Invasion Theory, but there are diagnoses of IVC Seals under headings such as Metallurgical, Illiterate, Agricultural Magic, Zoomorphism, and Astrological Yoga. As far as I know, the primary use of sealing something would be to tag a Jar. These seem to be the normal containers for everything from olive oil to metal slugs. The value of them is such that you do not find them as part of an elaborate burial, most of them were in the trash. The most complete "sets" appear to have been discarded at once. Sounds about like paper to modern people.

From the Rg Veda it is true that India pays little attention to Indra, but as I found recently the thing has an abundance of Tvastr. You cannot look up much about Tvastr. I suppose that means no one has gotten it.

Tvastr as Spica has been defining the beginning of the year for millennia.

So we will frame it that way. Rather than a thesis on seals, we will post some hymns that specifically say how this deity arcs through the ages.


As the basic outline, this is what we get if we look for pictographic and verbal evidence of honey and Tvastr's Honey Doctrine:




Bhimbetka (Rock Art, Shelter Dwellers, Honey) 10,000 B. C. E.


Bhirrana:


Period I (Hakra Wares, Pit Dwellers, Lapis Lazuli) c.7500-6000 BCE

Period IIA (House Dwellers, Bull figurines) c.6000-4500 BCE

Period IIB (Castle Dwellers) c.4500-3000 BCE

Period III (Seal users, Meghalayan Age) c.3000-1800 BCE

Nirmand


Rice appeared in IVC pretty close to 3,200 B. C. E....we see it distributed in specific parts of the Indus rather than ubiquitously across the region.

At urban sites during the Mature Harappan period, rice was a secondary and rare crop (Weber, 2003; Madella, 2014), while by the Late Harappan period and certainly in post-Indus periods it was becoming a staple.


Rimush was about 2,270 B. C. E.


Next, droughts, and the Meluhha and Bactrian Eagle.

We don't know that IVC "collapsed"; it may have simply changed to a rice-growing culture, which did not require the same kind of central town with large granaries. We can't say what Nirmand "belonged" to, or when the Veda was transmitted, and so we go from a language of zero to complex, multi-faceted, high grade composition. By a certain point, it qualifies as a "new age".





Age of Aries -- Tvastr as Citra-Spica defines the Year



Rg Veda has no Puranic equivalents of cosmology, mental creation, mind-born sages, and demigod meanderings in Jambudvipa. It may refer to approximately the grandfathers of its main actors. Because it speaks of no action or anything tangible prior to its own events, these legendary figures are perhaps metaphors for Agni:


Emperor Bharata and Sage Atharvan


It does incorporate the semi-fantastic by way of making us think some "ancestors" are not mortals, such as:


Ila Devi, Pururavas, Mandhatra, Prthu



but it explains none of this.

It teaches or describes almost nothing, and appears to presume familiarity with its subjects. The first people we might take to be human would be the sages:

Bhrgu and Angiras


but nothing is recorded from them.

Here is the substance of the books in order, highlighting what we have been asking.



VI:


Sage Bharadwaj, raised by the Maruts

King Srnjaya and Hariyupia

King Divodasa and Sambara

Kirat King Yalambar may be a later consequence from Sambara's defeat.

This book lacks Prajapati; it has Brahmanaspati and Aditi; Vaisvanara; Marut Gana.

VI.16 Dadhyan, Atharvan, and Purandar


Garga on Divodas, Atharva Gotra, and Celestial Chariot

VI.46.1 will be the beginning of Brhat Saman.

VI.50 Apam Napat with Tvastr

Sarasvati VI.61 gives away Divodas, who cancels the debt; has "Brsaya" as Tvastr, qv. comment on I.93.4:


Bṛsaya = Tvaṣṭā, an asura. The offspring of Tvaṣṭā is Vṛtra. The agency of Agni and Soma in his death is explained by identifying them with the two vital airs, prāṇa and apana, the separation of which from Vṛtra was the possible cause of his death (Taittirīya Saṃhitā 2.5.2.4). By the destruction of Vṛtra, the enveloping cloud or gathered darkness, the sun was enabled to appear in the sky.

Comparable to Vrsaya in Santanu's hymn and for Indra ("showerer") in VIII.13.

Notice there is no reason to say Brsaya is Tvastr. It literally comes from nowhere. It is who Sarasvati is asked to destroy.

The actual hymn may have a dual meaning, first, literally, and, in the sense of "five debts" (rna) that man is in, with respect to consuming resources and making a mess. These are owed to the Devas and other kingdoms of nature, which is why there is a process of offerings.


So we are at Honey Doctrine already "hidden", so to speak, in this oldest composition. By this, we mean that to casually refer to Dadhyan implies the audience was familiar with what it is about.

We will continue to ask, where is Tvastr? because the question has not been asked.



III:


King Sudas at the Beas and Sutlej Rivers

Sage Viswamitra

Tanunapat Apri III.4 with Bharati and Tvastr, for obtaining a son who is yuktagrāvā

III.53, Tvastr as Triple Bull

Sage Prajapati Visvamitra's Visvedeva III.54-55 Tvastr and Rbhus with Pusan, Grava, Vishnu

III.56, Triple Bull

III.48.2 "makes the situation rather direct when it is stated that it is in Indra’s Father’s Dwelling where the administration of Soma has taken place"...provided actually by Mother.



III.53.23 as the dispute between Visvamitra and Vasistha has Sudas as Visvamitra's disciple at the time.

Looking at plagiarism, Viśvāmitra innovated the Tanūnapāt form of the Apri Hymn, of concern only to his descendants.



‘Tanūnapāt’, meaning ‘Son of the body’




VII:


Sudas and the Battle of Ten Kings

Sage Vasistha

VII.44 Dadhyan and Ila Devi

Called insignificant by some:

Another probable reason for the authors of Rig Veda to insert the Dasharajna war in the text was because the vanquished were non-sacrificing kings who were converts to the new Zoroastrian faith (Narayan Pangee, 1915).

VII.18, comments an imprecation on Indra due to Visvarupa, although this is not evident in the line. More on this below.




IV:


Vārṣāgira Battle in Afghanistan

Sage Vamadeva

It has Kings Trasadasyu, Sahadeva and Somaka.

IV.15 implies symbolic Bharata or Atharvan in line four.

Aurobindo discovers "symbolic inner offering" in aśvasya Dadhikra IV.39.

Trasadasyu in IV.38 and then IV.40 are similar.

IV.33.6 Tvastr with Rbhus and Four Ladles

Trasadasyu's Atma IV.42 says that he is Varuna and Indra, and "works like" Tvastr; also uses Seven Sages (sapta ṛṣayo).

IV.18, Indra drinks Soma in Tvastr's dwelling




I:


Sages Dirghatamas and Kaksivan

King Sahadeva

It is possible some of Book I is older than IV; however it continues to accrete for some time.

Dadhyan I.117 and Horse Head, Tvastr's Madhu

Kasyapa's I.99 used in Durga Suktam

"Horse sacrifice" is *only* in I.162-3 by Dirghatamas.

Tvastr is importantly operative there. Sri Aurobindo believes this is also "inner offering".

Sunhashepa I.24 on the human sacrifice and liberation by Varuna, possibly the North Pole; also mentions rksa "stars".

Indra Yajna Soma I.28 with sexual symbolism




II:


Sages Kasyapa and Grtasamada

Bharata Agni II.7

II.23 has "ganapati" as an aspect of Brahmanaspati, and Tvastr, father of Brihaspati, who discharges debt and fights raksasas and "asurya"; Tvastr created Brahmanaspati through Sama.



II.11, Indra calls Vrtra a Danu and attacks the Danavas, and then Tvastr's son Visvarupa, assisted by Trita and Angirasa. This probably makes it the first concrete reference to Visvarupa as a personal name. That also makes him pretty close to Vrtra: next in line. That would actually be backwards compared to the Puranic version.


II.3, Night and Morning as female weavers


Talageri says the book deals with the "Iranian problem":


In this stage, there is a turnaround in the fortunes and importance of the bhṛgu family which joined up with the Pūrus and Vedic culture.




V:


Sage Atri

Atri Apri V.5 adds Svaha, with "siva" as an epithet of Tvastr; has expressions such as Divine Doors and Mothers of Rta, Night and Morning.

elsewhere, cf. Divine Illumination:

divó vā rocanā́d


Visvedeva V.41 addresses vāstoṣ patiṃ tvaṣṭāraṃ, claims the Parvatas, has Varutri and Rasa and comments:


Asura = prāṇadātā, the giver, of life

Trita: may be an epithet of Vāyu; the threefold, pervading the three regions of heaven, mid-air and earth

dhiṣaṇā “heaven and earth.”


ahiḥ | budhnyaḥ |

Let not the Dragon of the Deep annoy us, and gladly may he welcome our addresses.



Atri Visvedeva V.42 on five pranas has the Steer's wives such as Brihad Diva.

bliss-giving Asura

Put apart from the sun: sūryād yavayasva, make them separate, condemn them to darkness

There are multiple iterations of "anti-solar" that seem to be anathema.




VIII:


Sage Parucchepa

VIII.39, Mandhatr and the sevenfold race of men


Brhat Saman versus Babylonian words:

bekanāṭa (money-lender to traders, the Paṇi, who are referred to in the same verse) in VIII.66.10
manā (a unit of measure which is still used to this day) in VIII.78.2.

Brhat Saman VIII.89


The Sama Veda version also quotes:


Rg. 8-66-1

VIII.64 Soma "grows" at Saryanavat. Called "Rjika country" in VIII.7.


IX:

Soma

IX.5, Celestial Doors

Pavamana Soma IX.6 uses some sexual symbolism

IX.113 refers to Saryanavat, where Dadhyan's head was found after he perished.



X:


King Santanu X.98

Santanu's second wife Satyavati, mother of Veda Vyasa [?].


Atharva Veda King Kaurama XX.127 is a praise of Pariksit (Puranically, a Kuru king ancestral to Pratipa, father of Santanu, Kuru king of Hastinapura, the father of Bhīṣma by Gaṅgā.)




Hiranyagarbha X.121


Devi Sukta X.125


Which, as AV In.30:


The
hymn is used by Kaug. in the ceremony (10. 16-9) for generation of wisdom {medhajanana), being said over a child before taking of the breast, and also at its first use of speech; also in the same ceremony as forming part of the upanayana (57.31) [so
the comm. and Kegava : but the hymn is not included in the ayusya gana] ; and again
in the dismissal [utsarjana, says the comm. ] from Vedic study (i 39. 1 5).


as it says:

I bear the heady soma, I Tvashtar, also Pushan, Bhaga


X.110, Celestial Doors

X.8 authored by Trisiras Tvastra; Trita slays Trisiras in verse eight and releases Tvastr's cattle.

X.99, Indra defeats:


ṣaḻakṣaṃ triśīrṣāṇaṃ

six- eyed, three-headed Dāsa


and Trta strikes down the boar, varaha.


Sayana says:

Water-laden cloud: liṭ, the boar


with an Iron Finger?

áyoagrayā




X.X, sex as two wheels of a wagon

X.14, Madhu Matta




X.17, Tvastr as father of Saranyu Samjna

Viswakarman X.81-82

X.64, has mother Brhad Diva and father Tvastr, along with:


Ahirbudhnya: ahiḥ budhnyaḥ, the deep dragon


Kṛśānu, the archers (gandharvas), and Tiṣya nakṣatra, a heavenly-archer


Ahirbudhnya appears as what we would call Sesha, i. e. core of the earth, however even from VI.49 and 50 with Aja-ekapād and the visevedevas, seems to intend "vast deep firmament" or i. e., waters of space or cosmos. VII.34 derives it from "disperser of clouds" and combines it to mean Agni.

This has probably been mixed up, as has the "sunless" person when referred to in forms like "asuraya", but the Veda cannot possibly ever mean "asuras" because that has its origin in Churning the Ocean of Milk, which isn't in here. The Veda refers to the actual race, Danava. There is no "asura race", there are Daityas and Danavas.

cf.:


vṛṣṇaḥ | asurasya |


Satyavati is not in Rg Veda.

She is the mother of Krsna Dvaipayana, folded back over as if it meant Veda Vyasa.

Theoretically it would be appropriate, if the son of Santanu compiled the Vedas, but none of his relationships are given.

However he is called "the Aulana".

Aulana is controversial enough to be almost meaningless.


The correct insight is probably from G. Vajracharya 2014:


Both these elements are completely missing in the second-century BCE Sanchi stupa. The pillar-like objects are actually wooden posts to which the elephants are to be tied. Such posts are described in Sanskrit and Vedic Sanskrit as alana and aulana, respectively.

True for Alana and:


Ālāna (आलान) (Cf. Ālānita, Bandhitā) refers to “binding” (to the post of the mind)


The Vedic grammar may imply Aulana = Santanu, however, the thing that is being placed in heaven is the Aulana.

Literally, it ties an elephant that is considered to be untamed.

Sayana's commentary is shaped to support madhu doctrine (he is Madhva's brother).


Just a few unusual mentions of Tvastr in Atharva Veda.

V.27:

10. That wonderful seminal fluid {turipam) of ours, abounding in food,
O god Tvashtar, abundance of wealth, release thou the navel of it.

VI.4:

1. Tvashtar [protect] my address {vacas) to the gods,


VI.78 for matrimonial happiness.

Yajur Veda II.4.12 has the story of Indra interrupting/stealing Tvastr's Soma Yajna. In another area, it is commented taking it by force causes him to vomit Soma, which makes panic seeds. Repeated with Visvarupa in II.5.1.


That summarizes the scriptures; I would like to think of a way to boil it down to some symbols and key points so it would become a clickable interface with all the corresponding material linked into it. So far, it is still the basic idea that Bhirrana is one of the few sites that shows habitation by all expected cultures, and when this goes away, then, Rg Veda does have a fairly structured sequence.


Afterwards, there is simply a large gap before any known writing advanced further; it becomes full of competing claims and various ideas. If we continue with the same highlights, there is something to work with.



Hamfisted Transition


I am not sure how excited to be if the Hastinapur area contains a possible IVC vessel.


Both the attribution to Santanu and the end of the "Vedic period" cannot be confirmed or denied for the founding of Hastinapura.



Where do we place this stuff in the layers?


Five Periods (I-V) of occupation with a break between each have been identified.

135 iron objects



Around c.1200 BCE the region transformed to an Iron Age culture. The region was occupied by the Painted Grey Ware culture which corresponds to the Vedic Period.


That was Lal's point, Painted Grey Ware = Vedic era. Sinauli is close by, and of course that has bronze swords and chariots from ca. 2,000 B. C. E. or seemingly Vedic era. That shows no connection with Mahabharata. The fact that Hastinapura was flooded around 800 B. C. E. does, and, that should represent the era shortly after the great battle.

Otherwise cf. Iron in the Gangetic plain:

Mound 1 was the first to be occupied in the pre-NBPW phase in around 1100- 700 BCE i.e. early Iron Age. Discovery of cord impressed pottery, and silicious stones suggest some kind of connection with Vindhya-Kaimur region. A very important discovery of this phase was an iron sickle made of steely iron and of a superior standard. Firstly iron agricultural implement rarely reported from this phase in general across the Ganga plain assigns a significant position to pre-NBPW Anai. Secondly this iron sickle shows a high percentage of carburization and high metallurgical knowledge and skill. No copper object was found here.

While the Veda is about the same everywhere, from the old manuscripts, no two Mahabharatas are alike.

Closer to its epoch, and possibly less tampered is the first Epic:


Ramayana




I don't think we know what it means for the Veda to be "compiled" and for the possibility of Sages as authors to end.

Book Ten has so many of them, it must have been a going thing, especially because of how many times "new praise" is the important factor. What are you supposed to do with your creativity?

Going forwards, we can only use our discretion to evaluate what may be a better or worse non-Vedic text.


The paradigm of Honey and Goddess is perhaps best framed through:


Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (ca. 700 B. C. E.)

Mahanarayana Upanishad (ca. 300 B. C. E.)

Brahmanda and Vayu Puranas, Markendaya and Devi Bhagavata Puranas (ca. 500 -->)

Lakshmi Tantra (ca. 800)

Adbhuta Ramayana (ca. 1,200)



If I have seen that all through the Vedas, Tvastr is in a fairly exalted position, what happens in later sources?


We are in a knot about the nature of Vrtra (Ahirbudhnaya) and why Tvastr would make a weapon to kill his own son, who was created to avenge Trisiras.

Can't understand the second question until we figure out the first.


From the addition to Brahmanda Purana, Indra's karma for killing Trisiras is the background for Churning the Ocean in Lalita Mahatmya Chapter Nine. This may be non-Vedic but is crucial in tantra.


Within the Purana, the origin is referred to in Bhrgu and Angiras III.1.

There or on the death of Trisiras:


Women got it with the boon, "Amour will last without break". That sin is the menstruation of women (Devī Bhāgavata, Skandha 6).

Trisiras is now in Prahlada's third netherworld. Indra vampirizes the good qualities of Prahlada.


Well, the beginning is not really about any of them:


Indra quarrelled with him [Brhaspati], and the latter repaired to spend his life in penance. Sages cursed Indra for this.*

* Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa IV. 9. 4-8.


Which is not even their first incident:

Bṛhaspati’s wife Tārā once fell in love with Candra (the Moon god). She deserted Bṛhaspati and went to live in Candra’s residence. Bṛhaspati complained about it to Indra. Indra promised to bring her back and to restore her to Bṛhaspati by whatever means possible. Accordingly he sent a messenger to Candra. Compromise talks with Candra ended in failure. So preparations were started for a dreadful war between Indra and Candra. Śukra, the preceptor of Asuras also joined the side of Indra. Brahmā who came to know of all this, came riding on his swan and reconciled Indra and Candra. As directed by Brahmā, Candra agreed to restore Tārā to her lawful husband, Bṛhaspati, (Devī Bhāgavata, First Skandha).

Tvastr's difficulties seep in the Devi Bhagavata:

Indra’s brother Tvaṣṭṛ did not like some of Indra’s activities. With the object of rebuking Indra, Tvaṣṭṛ begot a son named Viśvarūpa, Viśvarūpa had three faces and so he was also called Triśiras. With one face he used to recite Vedas, with the second he drank alcohol and he used the third face for observing the world. He performed a rigorous tapas. Indra, who was alarmed at it, sent goddesses to allure him, but in vain. At last Indra himself went to the forest riding on his elephant Airāvata and killed Triśiras with his Vajrāyudha.

(Devī Bhāgavata, 6th Skandha)

There are also several stories in the Vedas about the birth of this hero. At the time of Indra’s birth, somehow, his mother felt that he was incapable of being killed. So she decided to abandon him. Fearing trouble for herself, she asked the child to leave her and go to some other place. Indra refused to do so and followed her to the house of Tvaṣṭā. There he drank the juice of the soma plant and gained strength to kill his enemies. But unaware of this, his mother, tried to keep him concealed. Indra, however, came out of the place in his dazzling attire and encountered the enemies.

This is the essence of Devi Bhagavata Purana:

Brihaspati felt humiliated by Indra, as due respect to a Spiritual Master was not paid to him as Indra started cutting short and interrupting the Guru often. In course of time, Brihaspati stopped attending the Court. Indra no doubt apologised to the Guru, but the Guru did not relent. Lord Brahma called Indra and reprimanded him for his follies and had to look for an alternative. At the request of Demi-Gods, Brahma then appointed Visvarupa, the son of Diti’s daughter Rachana and Prajapati Tvasta.

Even Vaisnavas call this Indra's first offence.

Therefor Visvarupa replaces him.

He similarly harasses the Aswins.

The full version is Kanda Six with Trisiras in Devi Bhagavata and the issue of Maya.


Obviously, Indra commits Brahmahatyâ (killing a Brâhmin).


It says that Indra believed Trisiras was going to kill him. He was paranoid; there was no indication for this. Just bad memories of irritating Brhaspati and Tvastr. Being replaced in heaven.

Tvastr returns the favor by using a Krtya to produce Vrtra for that very purpose; it didn't work.

This is the main paradigmatic enemy in Rg Veda, "Drought".


The Purana certainly doesn't question Indra's strength, it says he is prone to material opulence, maya, is stupid, petty, and jealous.

I don't think that contradicts the Veda; you could be somewhat intelligent and capable and still suffer those flaws.


Rg Veda requires "a Purana", since Tvastr is in all ten of its books, and, at no point is it a story about him.

The first book, by simply referring to "Dadhyan", presumes you know the or a version of the story.

The Veda is clean, the Purana is sloppy with no way to adjudicate "which" story--so by process of elimination, there are precious few areas where this is spoken of.

Indra and Trta act in cohesion in Trita or Three and Brhaspati.



This evidently is how the mainstream later used the Vedas in Brhaddevata:

The main body of the text beginning from the twenty-sixth varga of the second adhyaya, for the most part, is concerned with stating the deities, in their successive order, for the hymns and stanzas of the Rigveda. It also comprises nearly forty legends, described to explain the circumstances under which the hymns they are concerned with were composed. These legends cover almost a quarter of the whole text. A number of these legends are historically connected to the Mahabharata.


This is something the Tamil view never had a problem with:

The biggest problem for the supporters of Aryan Dravidian Divisive Racist Theory is Indra’s killing of Brahmins. So instead of discussing it openly they simply hid the facts. So is Ravana’s death in the hands of Rama. Ravana was a Brahmin! They also concealed the fact that both Asuras and Devas had Brahmins Brihaspati and Sukracharya as their Gurus! They also hid that fact that Asuras and Devas were born to the same parents. Whenever such facts come, they will hide them or make a passing reference to them as if they are not important. The simple reason for their strange and cunning behaviour is these facts are against their fanciful and concocted theories.

Foreigners have never highlighted these facts or discussed them in their research papers. Their tactic is to tell half truths and confuse the general public. They know that Hindu scriptures are so vast that they can quote from anywhere the facts which are convenient for them. They will set their own chronology for Hindu scriptures or Hindu saints and write “scholarly” articles. They know that the English educated Hindus never read their scriptures in original in full, but only read the English write ups. With other religions, their books can be read in a few hours time and so the “scholars” cannot bluff. But even with very minimal writing, other religions have one thousand questions raised by the Doubting Thomasses.

Foreigners were confused about the number of Indras that existed...

Tvashtri was a powerful Brahmin. He was doing a penance and a three headed son (Tri Siras) was born to him. He became a pious and humble ascetic. Indra was scared that he would be replaced by him. So he went and killed him. Even after death his head was radiating glorious light. Then Tvashtri created another son from Yagna fire and named him Vritra. He defeated Indra in the battles. But he was killed by ‘’foam’’ as Vritra had a boon not to be killed by any weapon. By killing him Indra carried the burden of a great sin Brahmahatti, which comes to anyone who kills a Brahmin.

The original kings, Srnjaya, etc., were not epic national heroes because they were simply vessels for Indra to display feats and powers.

You cannot have Indra if you have mean things to say, or, a coarse tone of voice such as a dog, crow, or donkey.

But the Veda is mostly about Soma, that is the art, important enough to have its own book, the only one culled by subject. As we see, Tvastr has much more to do with the source(s) of Soma, Indra being more of a participant who interrupts others.


If the mainstream steers the discussion:


The Brihaddevata narrates that Vishvarupa is the son of Tvashta and his asura wife, and the twin of Saranyu. He is sent by the demons to become the priest of the devas, desiring to destroy them. Indra suspected his intentions and beheaded him.


However, X.8 is by Sage Trisiras; it begins with Agni as Lightning, and says:


when you proceed to the rite, you are Varuṇa; you are the grandson of the waters, Jātavedas


Trta decides to participate in:


Kratu

is the son of:

Aptya

VIII.47 is by trita āptyaḥ, with a likely relative as author of X.157.


Trta is known in I.52, Trita Apatya in I.105, and possibly Visvedeva's V.41.

Trta:


called Āptya q.v., ‘water-deity’, and supposed to reside in the remotest regions of the world, whence [Ṛg-veda viii, 47, 13-15; Atharva-veda] the idea of wishing to remove calamity

the view of the Tritas being the keepers of nectar [Ṛg-veda vi, 44, 23]

fallen into a well he begged aid from the gods [i, 105, 17; x, 8, 7]


In the suggested reference to Nectar:


ayáṃ tridhā́tu diví rocanéṣu tritéṣu vindad amṛ́taṃ nígūḷham

this (Soma) has found the threefold ambrosia hidden in heaven in the three bright regions.

Ayam tridhātu divi rocaneṣu, triteṣu, triteṣu vindat amṛtam nigūḷham = Soma becomes as it were ambrosia when received or concealed in the vessels at the three diurnal ceremonies, which ambrosia is properly deposited with the gods abiding in the third bright sphere, or in heaven


Similar to VI.50.

VII.18 is the Parting of the Red Sea and riddance of Sambara. Sayana comments Visvarupa after Indra allows Sudas to ford the Parusni, then he floods it:


He, worthy of our praises, caused the Simyu, foe of our hymn, to curse the rivers' fury.

or:

...converted the vehement awakening imprecation of the sacrificer into the calumnation of the rivers.


Sounds like two different readings.

Sayana says:

...he made the exerting awakening curse of the praiser the imprecations of the rivers; viśvarūpodbhavam ātmano abhiśāpam, the imprecation on his (Indra) has its birth in viśvarūpa


That's not in the text, the curse is either by Vasistha to cause it, or by the victims as a result.

Has nothing to do with it. "Visvarupa" is frequently used as a generic description that many deities take numerous forms. Neither one is in this verse.

The hymn seems to be saying there are Trtsus on both sides of this:


..he has given the dwelling of the son of Anu to Tṛtsu...

These hostile, Tṛtsus, ignorantly contending with Indra, fled...

The dwellers on the Yamuna and the Tṛtsus glorified Indra when he killed Bheda in battle; the Ajas, the Śigrus, the Yakṣas...


Right now we would have to say Visvarupa is a personal name in Book Two, who is more specifically Trisiras of Book Ten.


In II.11, Saunaka appears to be making an itihasa, or something close to the chronicles of Indra. This starts in verse two against the Dasas:


you have set free the copious (waters) which were formerly arrested by Ahi


verse five:

...the glorified Ahi, hidden privy in a cave, lurking in concealment, covered by the waters in which he was abiding, and arresting the rains in the sky.


After saying something about "more recent", there is verse nine against probably Danavas:

The mighty Indra has shattered the guileful Vṛtra reposing in the cloud



Then there are a few sayings based in "we" and you get to verse nineteen, probably against Dasyus:

you have slain Viśvarūpa, the son of Tvaṣṭā, through friendship of Trita.


Finally, in what sounds like Indra's activities as a result of Trita's offerings:


“Invigorated (by the libation) of the exulting Trita, offering you the Soma, you have annihilated Arbuda; Indra, aided by the Aṅgirasa, has whirled round his bolt, as the tun turns round his wheel, and slain Bala.”


And yet shortly we find that a dead Ahi willing to repent may be given offerings.

It has been asked how Trta and Indra could kill the same entity, and, this may be correct, in the sense they were yukta or Trta was bonded to Indra so it was simultaneously dual.


Interestingly, Devi Bhagavata points at Visvarupa as the son of Daitya Vairocani first.

My view is that the stories on Jupiter are Cosmic, are mental creation before our world, the ones on Tara and Tvastr.

This next set might be called mental creation "of" our world, or planetary, where something happens between Indra and Brhaspati, and another with Varuna and Bhrgu, and even again with Marisa and the Trees, that set the karma for the progenitors of our material world.

So we found out the Soma seeks Amrita, and, there is a psychological crisis due to Indra's attitude around Brhaspati. The production of Visvarupa, likely intended as a form of rivalry, was taken as a threat and destroyed.

Tvastr's wrath produced a Kritya which made the more famous Vrtra, which Indra again destroys in the way his weapon depends on Tvastr, as also does the legend of Dadhyan concerning Amrita, which is from the first book.


Now, if those are reasonable myths to be super-posed on actual events, those events were not separated by cycles of thousands of years. The meaning and symbolism may, but, seeing how Viswarupa is placed as a personal name, II.11 seems to say it was gathered in recent memory.

The strong sense in most of this concerning deities is that the Sages are talking about something that is mental.

It suggests you are attempting to visualize the deities attending your offering, and then you are trying to shift to a non-material state which is Swarga or Heaven.

That is why Agni is born three times, in the sun, as lightning, and fire, and several other deities are mentioned in a similar way. Besides the terrestrial, there is the Atmosphere, and then Space, both of which may be translated "sky" or perhaps "ether".

Visvarupa is just about the only one given a form, three-headed; most deities are called visvarupa, because they assume various forms.



This whisper is vast enough to make its mark in Comparative Mythology:

One recurring theme in Indo-European mythology is the “three sins of the warrior,” wherein the warrior figure commits an offense against each of the three functions, including the one he represents. In opposition to the first function, the warrior will defy or cause harm to come to his sovereign. In opposition to the second function, of which he is sovereign, he will display either cowardice or dishonor, thusly discrediting and disgracing himself. Finally, he will commit an assault, usually sexual, against a representative of the third function. (C. Scott Littleton, in his introduction to Dumézil, p. xi)

Indra is the classic “triple sinner.” His first offense is the slaying of Trisiras, the triple-headed dragon son of the Brahman god Tvashtar; the murder of a Brahman by a warrior is an offense against the first function. Later, when the demon Vrtra threatens to overpower Indra, the god sues the beast for peace. He then breaks the truce and murders him. By doing so, Indra acts in opposition to two functions: breaking a covenant works against the first function, while Indra’s cowardice in the beginning and unwarranted force in the end oppose the warrior principle, or second function. Stripping himself of his last shred of dignity, he acts in opposition to the third function when he disguises himself as the husband of a beautiful woman and has sex with her.

While a ready parallel exists in the offenses of Herakles...

We have found a trio of Adityas being important, such as Tvastr, Pusan, and Vishnu. Tvastr is a guide of life, and it turns out to be Pusan who is the guide of the dead. Adityas, Three Minor Sovereign Principles includes Craftsmanship--Tvastr, Prosperity--Pusan, and Morality--Vivasvan.


Rg Veda does not specifically give Adityas corresponding to twelve months:


Name of seven deities of the heavenly sphere; the chief is Varuṇa to whom the name Āditya is especially applicable. The succeeding five are Mitra, Aryaman, Bhaga, Daksha, Aṃśa. That of the seventh is probably Sūrya or Savitṛ. Sometimes their number is supposed to be eight, and in the period of the Brāhmaṇas twelve, as representing the sun in the twelve months of the year.

In the Rigveda, the Ādityas are the seven celestial deities, sons of Āditi,

Varuna
Mitra
Aryaman
Bhaga
Anśa or Aṃśa
Dhatri
Indra
Vayu

The ninth Āditya (Mārtanda) was rejected by Aditi, leaving seven sons. In the Yajurveda (Taittirīya Samhita), their number is given as eight, and the last one is believed to be Vivasvān.


According to [R.V.2.27], they are:

Mitra,
Aryaman,
Bhaga,
Varuna,
Daksha,
Amsha
and Martanda.


or:


Varuna, Mitra, Surya (Savitr), Chandra, Pusan, Agni, and Indra.


which goes on to explain changing to twelve, which can also be true if arranged by the Zodiac where on Pusan:


He also creates the “Indra Jala” or traps people in materialism.


Skanda Purana arrangement claims a Vedic heritage.

Brahmanda Purana list:

Indra, Dhatr, Bhaga, Pusan, Mitra, Varuna, Aryaman, Amsu, Vivasvan, Tvastr, Savitr and Visnu.




The "Indian Zodiac" would simply mean it begins opposite Spica and is not derived from and is not fully aware of the western constellations.

The first article describes this as worship of Vishnu-as-Sun.

Upendra is Mahavishnu taking birth as the Aditya Vamana, usually Indra being the oldest, and Vishnu the youngest, of the Adityas.

The Vedas say Thirty-three but do not give a full set of Adityas, or anything, as detailed there from V Tripathi. Quoting Madhvacharya:


“Never make the mistake of mixing up the highly extolled Devas of the sacred Vedas and that of lower importance mentioned in the mythological stories of the Puranas (or even in the Brahmana texts). Otherwise one will always remain confused."

Brahmanas and Aranyakas already give slightly different sets.

Dharma is unclear in the Veda; Brahmanas give it as the antidote of "Matsya Nyaya", which looks like opening the door to use the Flood Myth in Matsya Purana.



Here we go.

From Puranas this invokes the Sadhya class which includes Dharma and the Visvadevas.


There indeed is such a thing as Dharma Deva:


It used to be done in courts before sessions were held, invoking him to aid in correctly determining justice. This may still be done in some village courts and councils, but has passed out of fashion in the secularized legal courts.



As the meaning of life:


In order to have maithuni sṛṣṭi Dakṣa gets married to Asikni, the daughter of Prajāpati Viraṇa and begot sixty daughters. [He gave ten daughters to Dharma in marriage] [...]


Prajapati Dharma marries many women, including Lakshmi, Buddhi, Medha, Dhriti, Siddhi, and Sraddha.

Not just Daksa's gift, it is rather extensive.

Now, hang on. We made an argument that is opposite of "religion" because it is Dharma, which, according to Ashoka, can be Hindu, Buddhist, or other kinds, or Greek Eusebia, or even Aramaic. Part of the point is it doesn't *have* dictations, that it is up to man to discover the best course of action.

The Dharma character, who is on a mental level, is primarily involved with:


the Dākṣāyaṇis (ten: Lakṣmī, Dhṛti, Tuṣṭi, Puṣṭi, Medhā, Kriyā, Buddhi, Lajjā, Vasu, Śānti, Siddhi and Kīrti

Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 9. 1, 49-50; IV. 1. 40

Vāyu-purāṇa 63. 41; 66. 2; 76. 3.

Dharma was cursed and made Vidura by Aṇimāṇḍavya.

A portion of Dharma took life as Yudhiṣṭhira.

Vāyu-purāṇa 96. 153



A Devaṛṣi and the 14th Vedavyāsa; wife Lakṣmi and daughter Sūnṛtā; married ten daughters of Dakṣa; father of 12 Sādhyas, 8 Vasavas, 10 Viśvedevas, of Maruts, of Bhānus, of Muhūrtas and so on. Father of Yudhiṣṭhira; cursed by Māṇḍavya the sage.*

* Vāyu-purāṇa 10. 26; 63. 41; 66. 2; 76. 3. Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 9. 1, 49-50.


Mahāviṣṇu was born as a son of Dharmadeva.




“Dharma” cannot be known through empirical means such as cognition.

The basic premise of Mīmāṃsa is that action is fundamental to the human condition. Without application, knowledge is vain; without action, happiness is impossible; without action human destiny cannot be fulfilled; therefore, right action (Dharma) is the sine-qua-non of a meaningful life on earth.




It is exactly what the Epic is about, as I follow the simple view:


This Dharma Deva was the father of Yudhisthira in the Mahabharata.

Vidura in the Mahabharata was a manifestation of Dharma.

Using the mantra given by Sage Durvasa, Kunti Devi invoked Dharma Deva and she was blessed with Yudhisthira.

At the end of the Mahabharata, Dharma Deva takes the form of a dog and follows the Pandavas.


They are close enough that he is even thought of as an avatar of Vishnu.




Bringing us right back to the astrological mashup with "Garhial", Brahmanda Purana on the Simsumara sign with Dhruva in its tail:


Dharma Deva as the head; Narayana as his heart


As for the protuberance of either kind of creature, his upper jaw is the son of:


A King. He was the son of Svāyambhuva Manu, the son of Brahmā. Svāyambhuva Manu had two sons Priyavrata and Uttānapāda. (Devī Bhāgavata, Skandha 8).

begot of her (Śatarūpā) two sons Priyavrata and Uttānapāda and three daughters Ākūti, Devahūti and Prasūti

Father of Dhruva,1 a devotee of Hari

Uttānapāda’s son was Dhruva who achieved the highest place of worshipping Nārāyaṇa.

the star Β in the little bear (personified as son of Vīra or Manu Svāyambhuva and father of Dhruva)


His lower jaw, "Yajna Deva" is not very specific, other than spouse of Daksina or Diksa Devi.

The published version just says it is Yajna. It is also clear in the Jyoti chapter that Dhruva is the son of a star which may have a scribal error next; this area also describes Chariot of the Sun, where the single wheel is the day.


Notice the difference that Priyavrata evolves the human race, Uttanapada or Up Step is something else. Pretty sure in the "crocodile" it is Beta Ursa Minoris with Dhruva for a son. Otherwise it would be redundant or Ouroboros.

In that case it means Kochab:






If that is its upper jaw, then the creature is more or less the dipper shape as pictured.

Its snout would be pointed at Ursa Major.

If the creature--sign has this meaning, then it would have been necessary, in a prior age, to have been Draco.

In 3000 BC, a faint star called Thuban in the constellation of Draco was the North Star. Polaris did not become the North Star until about AD 500.

In other words, both Dhruva and the "crocodile" must have changed, if it is supposed to have this meaning archaically. In the Purana, we think they are dealing with "current" astronomical writing, which, also, would be this, 500ish.

My strong sense is since 3,000 B. C. E., there has been oversea navigation as well as stellar-aligned stoneworks, and there was no way you could have not known the equinox left Taurus or that the north star "circles" and falls off its post. It seems to have caused an upheaval that causes a certain tension in the course of writing. I don't think they have done a great job at recording calamities, such as the eruption of Thera or the Supernova in Auriga. These geometric phenomena that interfere with time keeping and direction reckoning may have been a tremendous concern.

You can learn to adjust a calendar, but you cannot affect true north of the earth's axis.

If you had a Bull mythology that said he led the year, you would become empty-handed.

In India it was Krttika. I am not sure when they were told this was part of a bull.

A little less than 2000 years ago what is commonly still thought of as the “1st” nakṣatra was Aśvinī, because it aligned with the 1st division of the ecliptic at the time. From that time things got confusing and astrologers/astronomers didn’t want to continue to update the position of the nakṣatras in reference to the position of the ecliptic divisions (rāśi). That’s why many people practicing Indian astrology still count Aśvinī as the 1st nakṣatra and even start the ecliptic divisions from the start of Aśvinī, creating a “sidereal zodiac.”

Aśvayujau ‘the two horse-harnessers’ denotes the stars β and ζ Arietis. Aśvinyau and Aśvinī (अश्विनी) are later names.

Aśvinī (अश्विनी).—

1) The first of the 27 Nakṣatras or lunar mansions (consisting of three stars).

2) A nymph considered in later times as the mother of the Aśvins, the wife of the Sun, who concealed herself in the from of a mare.


Whatever zero point you go with is a choice in astrology:

The original tropical vedic school calculates ayanamsa using the galactic center(not the star citra), since it is the only truly fixed point, and the middle of mula(root) nakshatra, it also divides the 27 segments along the equator rather than elliptic, as traditionally done, since the movement of the stars has nothing to do with the movement of the sun along the elliptic.

Asvini is first because it is opposite Citra, which, only incidentally had to do with the equinox. Citra is Tvastr. So this is a type of combined value judgement. It just defines meridians, as said by someone who would rather use Mula:

Just think, even the word Nakshatra (used in Vedas)

refer to the fixed areas in sky. In Vedas you cannot see a single use

of the word Nakshatra to refer to other constellations/stars other

than the fixed stellar divisions.


"Since time immemorial the zodiac has been sidereal as is evident

from the 12 Rasis and 27 Nakshatras having fixed limits and shapes.

Equinoxes and Solstices traversing the symbolic stellar background

inspired the Vedic seers to record them in mythological descriptions.


Confusion prevailing is the result of

Sidhantic texts that assumed zero ayanamsa or coincidence of the

sidereal and tropical zodiacs at their respective epochs".

I might think it is a choice to use Vedic Tvastr rather than IVC Bull.

Scientifically, Mula probably is the "most fixed".



Surya Siddhanta has Citra's position wrong, but uses it to locate "Child of the Waters", Apam Vatsa. The Surya Siddhanta is the only text that mentions a third star, as if repeating that same line, Apas (or Apa), Delta Virginis.

Other Indian works give the correct position.

Mentioned right after Auriga.

Translator is baffled why such faint stars as Prajapati and Apa would be particularly revered.

We just discovered Trta Aptya. So, we are stuck with the same metaphor at the beginning of the Veda.

Female Apah is dominant in Atharva Veda.


We can easily tell how slippery Tvastr is:


The proper motion of Spica is -0.041 arcsec per year in Right Ascension and -0.028 arcsec per year in Declination and the associated displacement for the next 10000 years is represented with the red arrow.




(-6.83 arcmin in Right Ascension and -4.67 arcmin in declination)


In other words, about a tenth of a degree.

If he conveniently became the anchor of a new time system, it just makes twelve slices of a wheel. It is literally a clock. Some constellations might actually lose their shape in that time frame. Spica will always have an opposite point, and you can always keep time in twelve parts. Because it has two related stars, Tvastr should also be regarded in this capacity as Tripathi says:

Here I must add that according to the masters of the Nirukta, one of the 6 limbs (angas) of the Veda, there are only 3 fundamental Devas in the Vedas: Agni on the earth, Indra in the intermediate regions and Surya in the heaven, i.e. Light in three regions. All Devas are seen manifestations of these 3 Devas only. Finally, even these three Devas are also seen as manifestations of the Supreme Light, Atman, the Self.

Rg Veda more than once says there are Thirty-three Devas, even though they are all part of the same Light or One Life, and it never gives any reason or even say who is involved.

In almost any evaluation, Rudra or Marut Gana is the Life Winds of the individual.

Because, to us, this explanation is already available, then, to me, Bharadwaj sounding like Moses is not really accurate, because I would not think it means he was in the reeds of a marsh. To me it says he was empathic to the state of the aura; he had a gnostic awareness from an early age.

Someone called "Rstisena" can be using a similar ploy, i. e., army of spears = marut gana.

Rudra is the first thing in Devi Suktam.

Soma, perhaps by Purification, is an intermediate to Nectar or Amrita. It is possible there may be more than one way to achieve this; however, we would think Tvastr would be a paramount assistant. This theme is the background of the entire Rg Veda. He is in any Apri Hymn. One could see a reason to suggest considering him an Aditya when it was decided a year has twelve months.

If it was not specified before, then, you frequently find him in a triune invocation with Pusan and Vishnu, or Vivasvan in the role of Dharma.

Maitreya uses this phrase, Sun-like Dharma. That is the meaning I get.

Tvastr is Lunar, in the sense that Spica defines a Day of the Moon or Mansion; Ashwini is the opposite Nakshatra, containing the stars, the Aswins. So it is really a Lunar Mansion that the Solar Year aligns to.

Adityas grouped with Martanda is a different subject, the Mundane Egg. So it would be a specific re-formulation to say they are names of the Sun at Twelve Times. At that point, Tvastr and Vishnu become involved.

The Sun is shorn to make Vishnu's Chakra.

It's not a Zodiac, it's an Indra to Vishnu progression.



Among human beings, Yajnwalkya has a particular place, especially considering a description of different kinds of Sages in
Brahmanda Purana:


Avyakta, Mahat, Ahamkara, Bhuta, Indriya.


Un-manifest is Daksa and other mind-born sons of Prajapati.

They produce:

the sons of Tsvaras.
Understand them. Kavya(Sukra), Brhaspati, Kasyapa, Cyavana...


Next:


Vedic Sages


Describing all the gotra families, he is certain to include among Angirases members of the Ayodhya Solar Dynasty and others such as:


Purukutsa,
Mandhata,
Paurakutsa, Trasaddasyu, Dlrghatamas and Kaksivan




Manu the son of Vivasvan (Sun) and King Pururavas
the son of Ila, these two excellent Ksatriyas should be known
as expounders of Mantras.


9-11. The preceptor of those who sing Saman Mantras
is King Pururavas, the son of Ila.' Forty-six other sages, together
with their disciples are also Srutarsis.


Meaning "sons of sages", Yajnawalkya is given in these, and again in the branch of:

Madhyama Adhvaryus.




That which is a great statement is remembered as the
statement of Rsikas.

That in which the words are not very clear, that in which
there are many doubts is the statement of Rsiputras. All of
them are lamentations (or all lamentations also are such).


Finally there is a class called:

Misra


"Mixed", i. e. of various origin.


Here he is in the view of Vishnu Purana:

Yajnavalkya after leaving the Brahmasamaja went and did penance to the Sun-god. The Sun appeared before him in the form of a horse. Yajnavalkya then requested him to grant him new yajus unknown even to Vaisampayana. The Sun then remaining in the shape of the horse (#Vaji) itself imparted to him instructions on a new set of Yajus called Ayātayama which were not known to anybody else, even to Vaisampãyana.

Those who studied it were called Vajis. There are fifteen branches of the Vajis, Kannu being one of them. All were put into operation by Yajñavalkya.


Among Sannyasins of Samaveda:

Pauspinji had four disciples: Logaksi, Kauthumi, Kaksivan and Langali.


Here is an anachronism from Vamadeva in IV.26:


I am the wise ṛṣi: Kakṣīvat; I have befriended Kutsa...

which is a Hawk hymn:


“May this bird, Maruts, be pre-eminent over (other) hawks, since with a wheelless car the swift-winged bore the Soma, accepted by the gods, to Manu.”

a car without wheels; the text has havyam, this is a metonymy for the Soma, which is said to have been brought from heaven by the gāyatrī, in the form of a hawk; by the hawk, we are to understand the supreme spirit, parabrahma

IV.4:


4.40.03 And after him who is quick-going, hastening, eager (to arrive at his gold, men) follow (as other birds pursue) the flight of a swift (bird) striving together to keep up by the side of Dadhikrāvaṇ the transporter (of others) as swift as a hawk.


and:

"The As'vins gave a horse's head to Atharvan's son Dadhyanc, who then proclaimed to them the (place of the) mead (madhu) of Tvastr. (1,117). With the head of a horse Dadhyanc proclaimed to the As'vins the (place of the) mead (1,116). The As'vins won the heart of Dadhyanc; then the horse's head spoke to them (1,119). Indra is also connected with this myth. For it is said that, when seeking the head of the horse hidden in the mountains, he found it in Saryanavat and slew with the bones of Dadhyanc ninety-nine Vrtras (1,84). Indra, besides producing cows from the dragon for Trita, gave cowstalls to Dadhyanc (and) Mataris'van (10,48). "

So this is above or within the Soma.

I would then say it is the main subject in Buddhism from Ashvaghosha on out, Amrita.

In Theosophy, it is the term HPB was asked to use rather than "monad", "spirit", etc., and she never started doing it.

These deities are not objective, they operate by a type of mental cash; and so it has more to do with the consciousness of the person. The Veda is full of Om mantras from its earliest period; how does this fit in with linguistics or a literal interpretation? Wouldn't it be closer to Chandogya Upanishad?? What does this mean on a personal level from moment to moment?

It does mean something, it is very real.