Crazy China! Forty People Broke into the 4th Branch of Our Community Without Any Lawful Documents!

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Posted by Anchor

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Posted by blufire

Come on Avalon . . . you guys are way more savvy than this . . . .

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If the lifechanyuan can't dodge a few obviously loaded questions such as the ones you are asking then they wont be able to hold the commune together.

Instead of dancing around your point and being condescending with it, perhaps you could just come right to that point and actually spell out your concerns.

Or do you think you are the only one that can see the potentials at play here and feel we all need to be lead slowly to realization?

Anchor..

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I think Blufire was genuinely trying to be polite. He could've also called us a bunch of dumb idiots for picking up on this story so easily, to give an example.

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Posted by Sierra

I find this so annoying. blufire, you have said yourself, you make no judgements whatsoever on the ethics or morality of a position (re the dreadful Monsanto).

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I would like for you to point this out to me in my posts or threads. These are your and several others projections on to me.

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Posted by Sierra

think your well known Monsanto agenda is driving your position of condescension, hostility and negativity towards these farmers. (Oh and you dislike and criticize Bill's Ecuador project as well)

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What exactly would my “monsanto agenda’ be? Other than I have stated clearly that I do have a controversial personal opinion of where this technology may be taking global humanity and why we (at this current time) depend on it and will be and are moving away from this dependency. My position is neither negative or positive when it comes to looking logically at what may be happening around us with something as massive as biotechnology.

I have no condensation, hostility or negativity toward any farmer whether organic or conventional. I am an organic farmer and have worked closely with conventional farmers when in Kansas. I see both as people trying their best with what they currently understand and know what to do. You are the one that hates the conventional farmer . . . not me!

The only hostility or hatred I have seen over and over is yours and others on this forum toward me regarding this topic (monsanto) and solely because I don’t row the boat in the same fashion as most do on Avalon.

Bill’s Ecuador project???? What project would that be??? He has a friend (Christine Breese) that has been working building a community for the past year or so but I had no idea he had any kind of interest in it other than she is a personal friend and he was supporting her endeavors.

Did I question things on that thread about this Christine’s community? You betcha. When I see people who can pay larger sums of money get to sleep in the really nice accommodations and those who can contribute no money and only work to earn their keep get to sleep on the floor of a building you bet I speak up and cry foul!

I see these people as the same in every way and if it were my community their accommodations would be exactly the same no matter how much money they had and if the wealthier has the attitude they should be treated better because of their money then they would be seen the door straight away because I have NO time for people with that kind as attitude and expectations.

When are we going to STOP the paradigm of the haves and have nots?

Regarding this china ecovillage . . . I wish it truly were a full blown self sustaining ecologically balanced community that we could learn from, but it is very far from it as far as I can see. They do not have their own power or water source. They do not the ability to raise their own food year round . . . etc. How is this an eco/green village? Do I believe Jena and her fellow villagers have worked incredibly hard to make their community beautiful and a happy place for them to live . . .absolutely.

It is the founders and whoever put up the millions of dollars the last 3 or 4 years that question solidly. Jena and the others are about to get kicked out of this village they gave all their personal possessions for and worked tirelessly (without monetary compensation) all these years and are about to be kicked out with winter upon them. I feel they have been used as some form of slave labor!

How much do you want to bet this eviction will not include the founder or those in the upper ranks?? Only these people who have nothing and no where to go except out in the cold and what really infuriates me is there are older folks and children in this group!

This is about money and extortion I suspect. . . . Jena and the others turned this piece of ground into a beautiful garden and community and therefore worth much more than what it was a few years ago. So they get kicked out and it is sold to someone else for large sum of money and I wonder who pockets this money?

I don’t even think Jena or any of the others truly know what is happening beyond their garden walls . . . but I bet the “founder” does.

I feel these people have been abused, lied to, manipulated and victimized and NOT by the chinese government.

I just want no one else (PA members or guests) to be manipulated and victimized by what appears to happening on the other side of the world from me.


PS Sierra, I have asked you this before and I am asking again, please stop pulling sentences out of my posts and taking them out of context to try to reinforce your own personal agenda against me.

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Posted by Violet

I think Blufire was genuinely trying to be polite. He could've also called us a bunch of dumb idiots for picking up on this story so easily, to give an example.

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What leads you to the assumption about the dumb idiots part except the way the posts were worded?

Here is what is bothering me in this - and its not blufire (who I thought was a she, but that is irrelevant !). Blufire can say whatever blufire wants to but my point is that it is better done directly and without talking down to the rest of us - especially when trying to get a point across to someone who is not a native speaker.

Also, every single time, and I do mean every single time, someone comes up on this forum with what looks like a plan or in this case, an actual ongoing plan for a great service to others based community / paradise - it gets attacked, sometimes quite viciously on this forum as being in some way fraudulent and a scam - with NO evidence and a lot bias, prejudice and assumptions.

Of course its possible that this is happening but its just a guess at this point - one must consider all the angles.

So, lets just say, that the people in this community are being mislead, that is indeed a problem, but hammering on that problem right now is not the main thing.

Has anyone stopped to think that if it were possible to somehow protect the community and prevent it being reclaimed that any such planned fraud (based on increased land value) would in fact fail? The perpetrators could even be revealed - with the core group intact.

Well if you didn't consider that possibility - please do so.

Bad things happen in this world and they can often be transformed to good things given enough time and energy.

Are we here to help people who need it or are we hear to grandstand about how clever and worldly wise we are ?

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Posted by Anchor

What lead you to the assumption about the dumb idiots part except the way the posts were worded?

Every single time, and I do mean every single time, someone comes up on this forum with what looks like an plan or in this case, an actual plan for a great service to others based community / paradise - it gets attacked viciously on this forum as being in some way fraudulent and a scam - with NO evidence and a lot bias, prejudice and assumptions.

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Exactly. It gets very shilly after awhile...

<sigh>

I agree with essentially everyone. I appreciate Blufire (and others) for bringing an air of cautious skepticism to this scenario, as for the overwhelming majority of 'us' it is an intellectual visualization. Because it is so, the 'truth' of the matter (whether all this is a scam or not) is indeterminable. Until verified, I will continue to assume that the information provided/presented is (more or less) true. I suggest that (barring further information) participants to the discussion join me in this as - worst case scenario - time is spent hoping for the best in one form or another.

Visualizing so, I can do little more than commit attention and energy positively toward Jena and those whom she is espoused (in a communal sense) to. I also hope that some ninjas happen by because, while they might have something snarky to say about having not anticipated these types of misfortunes, they're not likely to sit idly by.

Anchor, your post in particular alluded to the many ways above and beyond petitions and money by which Avalon might assist in the situation; Among other things, Avalon is rife with psychics, metaphysicians, et al.

I do not think that the situation at Lifechanyuan is hopeless, but I also do not think that failure is not necessarily inevitable, especially with some of the explicit/implied forces working against.

Any sneaky lawyer-types in the wings?

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Posted by blufire

I don’t even think Jena or any of the others truly know what is happening beyond their garden walls . . . but I bet the “founder” does.

I feel these people have been abused, lied to, manipulated and victimized and NOT by the chinese government.

I just want no one else (PA members or guests) to be manipulated and victimized by what appears to happening on the other side of the world from me.

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I agree.

There are a lot of people abused, lied to, manipulated and victimized by the chinese government. And there are a lot of them fighting persistently.


I searched for more infor about this org “lifechanyuan” (生命禅院) and its leader xuefeng (雪峰) in Chinese websites and social networks. However, I could not find any information about this incident at all, except on lifechanyuan’s Chinese bbs.


1.Here is a statement from their leader xuefeng (雪峰) saying that the local government’s measurements to demobilize members are illegal.
http://fachuan.net/bbs/forum.php?mod...read&tid=31868

http://fachuan.net/bbs/data/attachme...3nrlsz1l19.jpg

(Date: 2013/11/19 )


2. Their Petition on Chinese forum
http://www.newoasislife.net/bbs/foru...read&tid=31790


3. Post by their leader xuefeng (雪峰) claiming his slogan is “have all the beauties in the world”
http://fachuan.net/bbs/forum.php?mod...read&tid=26044

http://fachuan.net/bbs/data/attachme...s0kxxz7x0s.jpg

I really worry about people who truly believe in some kind of mixed up beliefs in communism, buddha, jesus and even president Xi……do they have any basic critical thinking?

And I worry about these children involved most. How to save them?

I've been debating whether or not to say anything - but I don't think Blufire should be alone in voicing concerns, so ...

First of all, I sincerely wish Jena and this community success and continued trouble-free living, I want to make that clear.

When she first appeared on the forum, last year, I read her post and thought what a wonderful sounding community, just what I'm looking for, and not too far from where I am. So I followed the link to the LifeChanYuan website, and there was something there I really didn't like. Oh well, not to worry - each to their own, I believe in freedom for everyone to live as they please, and if the members of this community are consensually living like that - fine by me.

Fast forward to this year, and the recent events. When Blufire stated that she'd had a look at the website and had some concerns, I though I knew what was coming, only it didn't. Puzzled, I had another look, and the information which had disconcerted me last year had been removed. What information ? Without going into the details, which I can only remember from one quick look, suffice it to say it concerned sexual liberty, especially in relation to the liberty afforded the leader, Xue Feng.

Now let me reiterate - I'm all for freedom so long as it's consensual, and it's none of my concern what relationships people get involved in. But as has been pointed out, there are children involved here, and they have to come first. Also, there are a lot of people on this forum now being drawn into this story, and while my wishes for the community remain strong, I agree with Blufire, use some discernment.

If my suspicions are correct, (and they may not be), the community's previous open advertisement of its' attitudes toward fidelity attracted the notice of someone in the government, or in the wider community. This IS NOT about communism vs Buddishm or Jesus. It's about the rejection of deeply entrenched Chinese customs and beliefs and family values. I might be wrong, but I'd be grateful if Jena could enlighten us as to her community's sexual beliefs.

A lot of people here have given some very sound and sincere advice, and I thank you. But you need to be aware that a contract in China is generally not worth the paper it's written on. I can only scratch the surface of Chinese culture, there is layer upon layer that I cannot hope to fathom, but what I do know is that what counts here is relationships. Xue Feng would never have been able to build his community without clout, which means knowing someone in power. Needless to say, the wheels would have turned much more smoothly with the aid of money. If Xue Feng has since then seriously pissed someone off, all the lawyers in the world wouldn't be able to recover the situation. Again, I can only guess, but with the recent change in power, there has possibly been a local level change which has dramatically altered the community's standing with the government.

I'd be grateful if YuHui or someone could confirm what I say about the cultural issues, or correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, I sincerely wish for a peaceful and happy resolution to this.

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Posted by mariposafe

I've been debating whether or not to say anything - but I don't think Blufire should be alone in voicing concerns, so ...

First of all, I sincerely wish Jena and this community success and continued trouble-free living, I want to make that clear.

When she first appeared on the forum, last year, I read her post and thought what a wonderful sounding community, just what I'm looking for, and not too far from where I am. So I followed the link to the LifeChanYuan website, and there was something there I really didn't like. Oh well, not to worry - each to their own, I believe in freedom for everyone to live as they please, and if the members of this community are consensually living like that - fine by me.

Fast forward to this year, and the recent events. When Blufire stated that she'd had a look at the website and had some concerns, I though I knew what was coming, only it didn't. Puzzled, I had another look, and the information which had disconcerted me last year had been removed. What information ? Without going into the details, which I can only remember from one quick look, suffice it to say it concerned sexual liberty, especially in relation to the liberty afforded the leader, Xue Feng.

Now let me reiterate - I'm all for freedom so long as it's consensual, and it's none of my concern what relationships people get involved in. But as has been pointed out, there are children involved here, and they have to come first. Also, there are a lot of people on this forum now being drawn into this story, and while my wishes for the community remain strong, I agree with Blufire, use some discernment.

If my suspicions are correct, (and they may not be), the community's previous open advertisement of its' attitudes toward fidelity attracted the notice of someone in the government, or in the wider community. This IS NOT about communism vs Buddishm or Jesus. It's about the rejection of deeply entrenched Chinese customs and beliefs and family values. I might be wrong, but I'd be grateful if Jena could enlighten us as to her community's sexual beliefs.

A lot of people here have given some very sound and sincere advice, and I thank you. But you need to be aware that a contract in China is generally not worth the paper it's written on. I can only scratch the surface of Chinese culture, there is layer upon layer that I cannot hope to fathom, but what I do know is that what counts here is relationships. Xue Feng would never have been able to build his community without clout, which means knowing someone in power. Needless to say, the wheels would have turned much more smoothly with the aid of money. If Xue Feng has since then seriously pissed someone off, all the lawyers in the world wouldn't be able to recover the situation. Again, I can only guess, but with the recent change in power, there has possibly been a local level change which has dramatically altered the community's standing with the government.

I'd be grateful if YuHui or someone could confirm what I say about the cultural issues, or correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, I sincerely wish for a peaceful and happy resolution to this.

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I agree.


Chinese customs and beliefs and family values are deeply entrenched. And they are much more important on the surface/outside, "saving the face" is much more important than everything.

Maybe that's why on their forum, their leader claim their female and male members live in separate houses？


I think I have already mentioned before that power rules this country instead of laws.......it's a disaster

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Posted by yuhui

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Posted by blufire

I don’t even think Jena or any of the others truly know what is happening beyond their garden walls . . . but I bet the “founder” does.

I feel these people have been abused, lied to, manipulated and victimized and NOT by the chinese government.

I just want no one else (PA members or guests) to be manipulated and victimized by what appears to happening on the other side of the world from me.

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I agree.

There are a lot of people abused, lied to, manipulated and victimized by the chinese government. And there are a lot of them fighting persistently.


I searched for more infor about this org “lifechanyuan” (生命禅院) and its leader xuefeng (雪峰) in Chinese websites and social networks. However, I could not find any information about this incident at all, except on lifechanyuan’s Chinese bbs.


1.Here is a statement from their leader xuefeng (雪峰) saying that the local government’s measurements to demobilize members are illegal.
http://fachuan.net/bbs/forum.php?mod...read&tid=31868

http://fachuan.net/bbs/data/attachme...3nrlsz1l19.jpg

(Date: 2013/11/19 )


2. Their Petition on Chinese forum
http://www.newoasislife.net/bbs/foru...read&tid=31790


3. Post by their leader xuefeng (雪峰) claiming his slogan is “have all the beauties in the world”
http://fachuan.net/bbs/forum.php?mod...read&tid=26044

http://fachuan.net/bbs/data/attachme...s0kxxz7x0s.jpg

I really worry about people who truly believe in some kind of mixed up beliefs in communism, buddha, jesus and even president Xi……do they have any basic critical thinking?

And I worry about these children involved most. How to save them?

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“have all the beauties in the world”

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So you want to save us? Just because our founder said so, dear Yuhui? Yes, It was said by our Guide Xuefeng that he wanted to have all beauties in the world in the Second Home for we hope more kind and soft women will have high dignity and safety in the world through living in the Second Home. Why? Because in our community, Lady first is a must-following rule! No men can hurt any women here. About 60% living members here are female ones. We respect and love founder Xuefeng very highly because we treat him as close friend, brother, and father.

You can read this article to know more about the high state of women in our community:

The Reversal of Heaven and Earth, Respect for Women —New Value of Chanyuan

http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.ph...the%2Breversal

He is the spiritual guide for us. He is the messenger of God, all chanyuan celestails living here are not average people. To find Lifechanyuan and living in the Second Home is not easy as living in a big family or community. I will share more about the importantce of Lifechanyuan, and what I think of it.

You want to save these children? How? Can you give them high dignity in the world? Can you give them a warm and free home without any worries about food, clothing, shelter, transportation, birth, aging, illness, and death? Have you ever asked and known how happy these women feel in the Second Home? Or can you see what their happy smiles mean? :p

http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/data/att...w3dz113zgd.jpg

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Posted by mariposafe

Puzzled, I had another look, and the information which had disconcerted me last year had been removed. What information ? Without going into the details, which I can only remember from one quick look, suffice it to say it concerned sexual liberty, especially in relation to the liberty afforded the leader, Xue Feng.

Now let me reiterate - I'm all for freedom so long as it's consensual, and it's none of my concern what relationships people get involved in. But as has been pointed out, there are children involved here, and they have to come first. Also, there are a lot of people on this forum now being drawn into this story, and while my wishes for the community remain strong, I agree with Blufire, use some discernment.

If my suspicions are correct, (and they may not be), the community's previous open advertisement of its' attitudes toward fidelity attracted the notice of someone in the government, or in the wider community. This IS NOT about communism vs Buddishm or Jesus. It's about the rejection of deeply entrenched Chinese customs and beliefs and family values. I might be wrong, but I'd be grateful if Jena could enlighten us as to her community's sexual beliefs.

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Hi dear mariposafe, do you mean this article:

"Freedom of Emotional Love and Sex Love—the Culture Building of the Second Home"

http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.ph...e%2BSex%2Blove

Yes, you're right, emotional love and sex love in our community are free. It is the rejection of deeply entrenched Chinese customs and beliefs and family values. This is why we call it as:

The New Life Mode of Human Being Has Come into Being

http://lifechanyuan.org/bbs/forum.ph...extra=page%3D1

I like it because it's my nature to love all people not one or several people. Why we called as celestials? Do you think those celestials or angels will have marriage or family? When I know who I really am, I won't and couldn't love only one people, because we are all one. You can't accept this? Have a read about the book of Coversations with God, you will understand more about Lifechanyuan & the Second Home. I have said that chanyuan celestials are not average people. This is also why we are facing such a calamity but none of living members would leave.

[QUOTE=yuhui;766606]

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Posted by mariposafe

I think I have already mentioned before that power rules this country instead of laws.......it's a disaster

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Just for that last sentence, I'd like to point out that we're having that problem too, increasingly, unfortunately.

Thank you so much for clarifying Jena. Openess like this is much better when you are dealing with foreigners like us, and now the forum members are much better able to understand your community, which is a good thing. And I largely agree with you, my only wish is that everyone who lives this way does so willingly.

Maybe my hunch was right, that the outside community feel threatened by your lifestyle, you know better than I do how your society reacts to unconventional behavour ! Don't rule out the possibility that one of your members' family might be behind the attacks.

Take care and be safe.

I looked at the wikipedia article xidaijena linked above for Conversations With God and was struck by this

"In Friendship with God, Walsch writes that God presents four concepts which are central to the entire dialogue:

• We are all one.
• There's enough.
• There's nothing we have to do.
• Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way."

May the light of truth prevail in the hearts of all.

Personally, I hope the power and water gets fixed soon ;)

You are all beautiful people! Be strong! Nature is love. If we love nature, it will nurture us. I also have large compost, watching the steam of heat coming out of it while mother earth turns it back to fresh ground is an amazing and reviving feeling. Thank you for sharing.

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Posted by blufire

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Posted by Sierra

think your well known Monsanto agenda is driving your position of condescension, hostility and negativity towards these farmers. (Oh and you dislike and criticize Bill's Ecuador project as well)

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Bill’s Ecuador project???? What project would that be??? He has a friend (Christine Breese) that has been working building a community for the past year or so but I had no idea he had any kind of interest in it other than she is a personal friend and he was supporting her endeavors.

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Clarification: that's correct. Christine Breese's website is here.

http://umsonline.org/ecuador/UMS-Cam...at-Center.html

Regarding the questions asked of Jena's project, about which I know very little, it strikes me that there's a certain amount of unpleasantness being shown here for reasons that are not easy to understand.

1) If an Avalon member asks for help or at least requests a chance to express themselves because something unwanted and hurtful has happened in their lives, we should offer support and understanding. These are my own strong values and I would very much like this principle to be upheld.

2) Avalon is a virtual but wholly international community. We have members from many dozens of countries in every part of the globe. There's a wonderful opportunity here for all of us, especially those of us who may not have traveled much or who speak other languages, to learn about other cultures, worldviews, and ways of living. (How many of us speak Chinese as well as xidaijena speaks English? And how many of us have ever visited China or have any real qualifications to make any informed comments about the culture there at all?)

3) It's crystal clear to me that anyone who aspires to be trying functionally and practically to create a better world, or examples of a better world, and has made significant and risk-laden personal commitments to do that, should be supported and not criticized as if they're somehow doing something out of line.

We need more people in the world like xidaijena, and we're privileged to have her in our Avalon community. Any new visitor to Avalon might be forgiven for thinking that they can see a certain degree of xenophobia and myopia on this thread.

4) To me, some of the responses to xidaijena have appeared offensive and in direct opposition to Avalon's values. Her own replies here so far to one or two fairly barbed comments and questions have done her great credit.

5) There can be all kinds of reasons for human beings doing anything at all that seems violent or freedom-restricting. Students of world history will know full well that for thousands of years there's been an ongoing battle between the vectors of personal freedom and the vectors of control and suppression. This continues today as strongly as it ever did in the days of Chairman Mao, Attila the Hun, or Herod the Great. China, despite its recent very successful conversion to a western-style economy, is not yet well-known for championing human rights.

Here's what it all boils down to, in my opinion:

If we don't do all we can to stand for and support those of us who are here this lifetime to continue that mission, Planet Earth will be lost pretty much forever and we may all just as well start to plan to reincarnate somewhere else next time round because the battle is lost. We have to get this right this time. Every action counts, even posting a response on the forum. It all adds the balance of energy, in one direction or another.

http://projectavalon.net/Earth-in_the_balance.jpg

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Regarding the questions asked of Jena's project, about which I know very little, it strikes me that there's a certain amount of unpleasantness being shown here for reasons that are not easy to understand

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Bill, you have admitted you know very little of Jena’s project and so I ask you to trust some of us who have put a great deal of time in trying at least to get a basic understanding with what is happening with these gentle people.

Anchor stated above:

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Also, every single time, and I do mean every single time, someone comes up on this forum with what looks like a plan or in this case, an actual ongoing plan for a great service to others based community / paradise - it gets attacked, sometimes quite viciously on this forum as being in some way fraudulent and a scam - with NO evidence and a lot bias, prejudice and assumptions

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I agree Anchor that this does happen. I also agree that more often than not I am flat in the middle of it and this is largely because this is one of the areas I am most driven. I am constantly searching for a new path or paradigm to finally get it right.

As you said Bill, we need desperately ‘this time’ to get it right! We have got to find the key to unlock this elusive door that leads to productive balanced communities. But sadly and frustratingly I have yet to find a model that is not a repeat of a handful of unsuccessful ways of forming a community.

And Jena’s is no different. It makes no difference that she is Chinese and this is happening in China. What is happening is simple human nature with added flavor of her customs and heritage.

Bill you said:

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1) If an Avalon member asks for help or at least requests a chance to express themselves because something unwanted and hurtful has happened in their lives, we should offer support and understanding. These are my own strong values and I would very much like this principle to be upheld.

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The following I am asking in great sincerity . . . . . Jena has come to this forum and has very openly told her story. I see in this situation (after reading a great deal on websites and forum) that great harm could and more than likely will come to these people.

So after understanding this do I SIMPLY offer support and understanding or do I state more clearly what I see is (most likely) going to happen to these people and especially the children?

Do we use what we see after looking closely and try to understand with each community that comes to Avalon so we can then understand which parts are an utter failure and which we can use to find the key to open paths to successful communities?

With all the complexities of Jena’s community and their beliefs I can still put all those aside and give you one massive failure of her community and it has nothing to do with the values or beliefs of her commune or that she is Chinese.

This is a small part of what I undestand from readin on the websites and forum and I am simplifying. Her founder or someone with the authority of the 4 branches of Lifechanyuan signed a contract to lease raw land for 19 years. When I read this part my heart just fell for her and the others and it makes me furious that no one caught the absurdity of such a contract. Whether in the US or China this is simply bad business and incredibly naïve.

So the contract is signed and the people who have given every worldly possession and quit their jobs and left their families began laboring in building the beautiful gardens and homes in the four different ‘branches’ They increased the value of this raw land greatly.

They have lived there for 3 or 4 years and now the landlord with who they have this 19 year lease contract (simplifying here) sees how much more valuable his land is.

There evidently is no sound recourse to get their money back or to be compensated for the improvements. Not to mention even if they lived there for 19 years did they really think they would get to live there forever at the same price? Any businessman after these 19 years would say okay here is the new contract for the next 19 years and it would be at an outrageous price unless there was a clause in the first to regulate subsequent contracts . . . . . but even this does not matter.

The landlord and/or the outside villagers now covet this land and the beauty and productivity and they want it back. (Remember I am setting aside all the other complexities of Jena’s commune and their beliefs) The 19 year contract is nothing and I mean nothing but a piece of paper.

Because the following is happening and this happens in every nation across the planet. The landlord and outside villagers will make it so horrible for Jena and her community to remain living there. It is no fluke that their water and power are being sabotaged so close to winter. These outsiders will continue to harass. threaten and take them to court and cost them handfuls of money until they will have no other choice other than to abandon their community and leave with nothing.

My advice to Jena is to leave now and to go back to her biological family because it will only become more dangerous for her to live there. They are too meek and peaceful to show any kind of self protection.

So what have we learned here with this community?

And I would bet my farm that the only place this thread will go from here is something along these lines . . . . . . .

There (usually) would be post after post on how horrible the landlord and outside villagers are . . . cruel, evil, low density. We will be trapped in this place forever . . . who can we ever get to a place of abundant living and peace for all when we have these evil elitist and cabal blocking every path and on and on and on and maddeningly on.

No one will ever or at least have yet to explore the fact that (as in this case) Jena and her community’s plight and eventual downfall is of their own doing. The founder or whoever signed a 19 year lease contract and proceeded to do tens of thousands of not hundreds of thousands of improvements without a thought of what would happen down the road. Remember I am saying nothing of all the other complexities of their beliefs and behavior. Very poor business decisions were obviously made in this situation.

Here’s a couple of my suggestions . . . . hire a lawyer who is tough and has no problem nailing down an iron clad contract that has only your best interests at heart and buy a fully trained guard dog that has no problem ripping a new asshole in anyone who would come on your property to destroy water and electric lines or do personal harm.

So yes I am fully aware I look at this much more logically and pragmatically, this is who I am. Others here on this thread offer emotional and sympathetic support. Others project good intentions, love and hope and I am with them fully in this type of effort.

I hope and pray I am wrong in my belief that in the next few months Jena and the others will be driven from their home and with nothing.

So my heart goes out to Jena and especially the children. But my heart also goes out to this forum and the guests who come here because I believe if WE TOO continue to hold to the same repetitive constructs and actions that we will not make it either.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

There's a wonderful opportunity here for all of us, especially those of us who may not have traveled much or who speak other languages, to learn about other cultures, worldviews, and ways of living. (How many of us speak Chinese as well as xidaijena speaks English? And how many of us have ever visited China or have any real qualifications to make any informed comments about the culture there at all?)

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Indeed, and in case you haven't noticed, I've lived in China for nearly 6 years and during my time on this "wholly international" forum have attempted to paint a different picture of the country to the one brainwashed into the collective psyche of the majority. Response ?
Disdain and occasional outright hostility, which is why I no longer bother.

Am I in a position to make "informed comments" on Chinese culture ? Yes I am, I'm immersed in it and studying it. And should you care to read my post, you'll notice that I freely admit to only being able to scratch the surface, and I then ask for a Chinese member's confirmation or correction.

I agonized for days about posting what I did, and did so because I think the full facts should be out in the open, which they now are.

If Jena wishes me to delete my post, I will. But it's for her to ask me, not you or anyone else Bill.

Actually this whole story is a lesson for us all. If we wish to start "alternative" communities, we must be prepared for a backlash, not just from our governments, but from the wider community too.

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Posted by blufire

....So my heart goes out to Jena and especially the children. But my heart also goes out to this forum and the guests who come here because I believe if WE TOO continue to hold to the same repetitive constructs and actions that we will not make it either. ...

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Here here to the whole post, especially this.

Blufire is one of the people on the forum who is doing what most of us aspire to. Her advice should be heeded.

I've also tried and failed many times. I too want to get it right.

Let's hope Jena's community can be saved.

There is very little information in regards to the actual legal structure of the property, who owns it, who has equitable rights to it, etc.

Until this information is forthcoming, we can only speculate. If it is a lease, leases can be broken, and often are. Terms of a lease are typically unilateral and in favor of the lessor, and the rights of the lessee are ambiguous and very often not spelled out.

If the lessors want to capitalize on the good graces and hard labor of the community, they surely could without much effort. Most courts would favor the lessors.

There are no perfect communities....... But there may be one perfect for you.

Any society that preaches this.

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Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way."

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Is a winner with me personally