The male abuse of women

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Hi, All: this important topic has been opened up, with quite strong feelings, elsewhere on the forum. It clearly deserved its own thread.

I've copied five other posts over to get the thread rolling -- three of them very slightly edited so the focus of the post is fully on the topic of this new thread. (Please feel free to re-edit the posts to add to the focus.)

To kick the discussion off (and to offer the important context that women are far from the only subject of male abuse) here's the transcript of my interview with Lucia René in 2011. It was a good interview.

http://projectavalon.net/lang/en/lucia_rené_unplugging_the_patriarchy_3-10-11_en.html

Here's the interview itself, which was called Unplugging the Patriarchy:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs

And here are some extracts:

BR: It’s very clear to me that a lot of men nowadays, they don’t know how to be. They’ve lost the rule book. They’re confused. They don’t know what’s expected of them. They don’t know how to be whatever it is to be truly masculine, because they’re confused by Hollywood movies and archetypes and comic strips and a whole bunch of stuff that’s been coming at them, ever since they were kids. And they know that that’s not right. But they don’t know what is right.

And, in my experience, there are a lot of men who go around with as much of an act as they can get together, to keep it together from day to day. And if you strip all that away, they’re deeply confused.

And, at a risk, I would be saying, that those deeply confused men are really hoping that they will encounter some woman who will be able to help them with this. And... But here, we’re... This is such a complicated and convoluted and sometimes highly-charged area, that, I think, that many of those men don’t find the high quality of woman who can understand all of this, in the way that you can.

BR: It’s this violence and oppression and compulsive control that we’ve been talking about, that are characteristics of what you call the patriarchy. Women are not the only victims. Look at the slave trade. Look at the holocaust. Look at... all kinds of... genocide. Look at colonialism. Look at the way that the British went into Africa and shot every lion they could find, just because they could. Just because they could.

But that aggression, that desire for control, or that kind of bullying, on this enormous scale wasn’t discriminating in its targets, was it? I mean, it wasn’t just women. It’s just men trashing the entire planet and every culture they could lay their hands on. Look at the Conquistadors. Look at the Incas. Look at what happened to the native Americans. I mean... men have got a lot to answer for. And not all of it is about women.

BR: But, I think a lot of men... I mean, it would be an overstatement to say they’re frightened of women. But that kind of man that I was trying to describe earlier, who’s actually confused, who doesn’t know exactly who he is, how he’s meant to be in society, how he’s meant to be a father or as a husband or as a partner or as a citizen. He doesn’t really know what’s expected of him any more. Is he meant to be macho? Is he meant to buy roses every day? What’s he meant to do? Is he meant to be the breadwinner? Is he meant to be tough? Is he meant...? Men don’t have a manual for this.

And then, sometimes, in certain circumstances, certainly, that man is actually really quite frightened of a woman who seems to be more balanced than he is and who might be able to offer him advice or to support him or to correct him or to point things out that he doesn’t know. These are all very hard for the male ego to take.

To myself and all women....

No one is making a statement defending the great injustices that women have suffered and continue to suffer. But do not little boys suffer them too? Are not men victims of their training? Can we lift the identity of sexual orientation and see beyond?

We are standing at the edge of the biggest rift on the planet. The male/ female division. Will we allow this to further split us or use this opportunity to reach for COMPASSION for all beings?

We are Spirit and have most likely experienced and participated in being male/ dominate/ abusers ourselves. As we peel away the barriers that have been used to block our access to Essential PURE Self we need to confront this reality. Ironically my meditation this morning took me into the billions of years of incarnations we have experienced. We are all culpable if that is the word… We are not male or female, only having chosen certain roles in different lifetimes.

Jim, Bill, John thank you for I see the beauty of your Spirits and know you would do no harm. This comes from the awe of living in the NOW moment.

With love and ONE heart COMPASSION,
Christine

I have a very dear friend who works in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia with victims of human trafficking. Most of them are young girls. They are sold by their families. The value of women is low, next to cattle. A chain of poverty keeps that supply side going. What is one child when there are many to feed? The beast of trafficking is surged by foreign buyers who come to this area for product, fresh meat, fresh sex. It is the material world in a low cruel form. The girls and boys are kept drugged and scared and with little self esteem. My friend A is a retriever. He goes in pretending to be a customer and then convinces the oldest girl to round up the others and get out. There are more slaves on the planet now than ever.

I'm sure there are young women who like older foreign men and it all works out great.

But the reality of what is happening on our planet regarding Men and Women and the base disregard for the Divine Feminine is hard to take day and night. I'm not even going to get into the media issue. If you can't see it, I don't have the energy to deal right now. Suffice to say I remember my mother saying when a woman reaches a certain age she becomes invisible.

Blame? Men and Women both. Parents. Have to end the cycle. Respect and nurture your daughters to not NEED but Desire that which brings forth love, creativity, joy, pleasure....beyond the material, within the heart, within our selves. Same with our sons. love and pleasure must be born inside and then shared. But right now we are dealing with People as Contraband. Possessions. Ownership. Slavery. Women mutating themselves in a Stockholm Syndrome of perceived physicality conformity. Must look like a barbie doll or I am not desirable. Must be sexy or what value do I have? The propaganda is outrageous and it starts with childrens toys. Disney Nazi Reptilians.

Life is short but it feels long. The suffering of the many reaches crescendo. Masses are manipulated by SEX and VIOLENCE, root chakra chains to keep them from evolving. This is the key.

When I first arrived in Costa Rica, which is just as notorious as Thailand for attracting elderly single men looking for younger women, my next door neighbor was one such man...a retired American who was once in charge of the platform from which the first US satellite, Telstar, was sent into space.

And he had married a Costa Rican woman who was 35 years younger than him, she was my landlady's daughter, and they had a baby daughter aged three. He had taken care of a whole clan, and it worked out well for all the people involved...a win-win all around.

While there certainly are cases where the women are victimized, more often than not it is the north American men, who get taken for a ride....I have seen it happen several times. Whole families gang up behind their young daughters to figure out how to strip the foreigner of his life's savings.

He taught me how to use my first computer (since he was my next door neighbor, and I knew few English speakers back then, being new to Costa Rica.) He was already in his late seventies when his daughter was born. He died before she was ten, but everyone was well taken care of. The daughter now has her own law firm, and is very bright young lady.

One American friend who was from LA and had come to teach film making at a university in Costa Rica had fallen in love only to be dumped a short while later, and he couldn't understand why. He told me the relationship had gone so well, and he had met her family and everyone was getting along great...

And when I had to explain to him that it was because he didn't own a car, he clicked, as he remembered how that issue had come up a few times in conversation.

Even though she apparently loved him, the rest of the family probably told her that she was crazy to hang out with a gringo who couldn't afford a car. Meanwhile he was the sweetest, kindest person, and he really wanted to do something for a third-world country.

So I know that all stories are different, and to generalize in these matters, based on zero evidence, is just not right.

We have some very powerful and intelligent women here. Is there a club or something here promoting women's rights? I would have no problem with it being exclusively for the gals.

I say this because it's a damn shame how bad it is in Afghanistan. They simply are not treated as humans over there, they are a currency to be traded. It's disgusting. I have a friend who served in Kabul and he said you'd never see women/girls there. When they would drive by a house (with high walls) the girls would sprint inside as fast as they could because if a man saw them looking at the troops they'd beat her mercilessly. We're talking full grown men beating girls of any age.

There's a documentary somewhere out there about prostitutes who live in a brothel and it's quite simply an exemplification of hell.

I don't think a man like myself can sympathize as much as a woman can, so the women around here would have a bigger fire in their bellies than I. Why not take all this energy and turn it into something good? I'm not saying form a charity or whatever, but really get crackin' and find some answers.

I personally don't feel its anyone's [male-NAME HERE] fault. It was the bringing up of an extremely soar subject that is obviously alive in kicking in a lot of female Hearts---I know it did in mine. It doesn't take any particular person to bring it up. Its always there (male perspective of females) and unfortunately it has become more of a source of contention for me as I get older.

It doesn't always have to be a personal issue for a female---all one has to do is SIT BACK AND OBSERVE. Ive observed and experienced enough to the point if someone were to tell me ill never have another "romantic committed" relationship for the rest of my life, ill be more then AYE OKAY with it!

Love another male as a friend, coworker..etc etc is great with me!...you are another human being. Just do not expect me to play a twisted role with you, a role that's been set up since god knows when. Things are different in different parts of the globe, ofcourse it is not as blatant in your face suppression here in US as other areas. But just because its more COVERT and presented in a way where it appears less oppressive..certainly does not make it nonexistent

All I could say, that if a male became a female right now IS THE ONLY WAY THEY WOULD REALLY GET IT...
And ill say im sure this goes for women as well!! Overall in my view, its a gender conditioning over a life that effects BOTH SIDES

Neither side should be DEPENDANT on the other...and I think female dependency goes STEPS further in its conditioning. As a young girl, I was expected to see the goal of ...you will get married and the man will help take care of you. This programming, I have recently had to work very hard to crush!!
So when you have an already debilitated set up of how relationships should go---which falters in MOST cases, the female is set back tht much further from not being able to support herself, or more importantly being prepared for such an event from the getgo like males are

Gee, just lost my post on the other thread. Posted as it was being closed.

Frustrating.:p

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Posted by Flash

Gee, just lost my post on the other thread. Posted as it was being closed.

Frustrating.:p

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Sorry!! My sincere apologies. There's absolutely no way for the mods to know if someone is drafting a post while a thread is being closed. Please continue here. The topic itself (of this new thread) is very important indeed.

In the military, I was once asked why I pretend not to know what my job is -- no ****.
At the time, I felt insufficiently trained, and that was my excuse.
But then I realized, if I really wanted to do a "good" job, I would have expressed more drive to succeed.
I would not have just backpedaled and tread water, if I really cared about other people --

So, it's kind of hard for me to see males in general as "insufficiently trained" rather than "insufficiently concerned".
I agree in a way that yes, they could use better role models, but -- what of the thousands of generations of abused women who successfully raised kids?
I mean, where do they get their examples? Some women weren't even allowed outside the house once married.
So, saying that an external example, or the lack thereof, is the reason men fail -- it kind of blows things out of proportion.

People don't need a huge crowd in order to tell right from wrong.
But maybe in a Hollywood culture, they need a huge crowd in order to feel "good about themselves".
Classic Narcissism. And I know this because I, too, have fallen into the trap of self-love at times.

The "need" for examples, at some point beyond babyhood, is really a need for an average, and the hope that one places above average.
I don't think it has anything to do with love or caring.

Lots of people tend to be stuck on the math of life and the irony there is, they aren't particularly good at math either.

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In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.

• I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
• I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
• Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
• If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.

Women can be plenty mean, too. But it's sad when little kids get caught up in gender wars.
It can hurt a little boy just as badly as any woman.

:(

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.

• I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
• I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
• Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
• If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.

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Isnt that just a bit too polarized?

Are you saying the nasty, manipulative, selfish women learned what they do from men only?

Ive known women that twist situations to their liking with no reguard for anyone involved (male or female) doing things that take a feminine thinking style that I struggle to understand.

I may be wrong; but reading the quoted post, it seems like you are demonizing males excessively, its too extreme.

I am very proud to be a man; I am not proud of "men" in general but my identity is mine to forge (no thanks to the pre-programmed crap) and while I dont condone the masculinity I often see, I also know from many examples this is not a black and white situation.

TO All ...
i can appreciate what you are attempting to express here... But please do not allow this to be become another 'hate male' thread...

We Are All Humans First !

I believe we incarnate as male or female each individual may be either- what ever suits the greater good .

I am sure I have experienced both, male and female incarnations plus combinations of left brain and right brain, it is all part of our evolution - in the beginning there was man-then woman and right brain arrived to balance left brain.

Logic and physical strength rule right now masculinecentric - this explains some of the reason we are in the mess we are in-we are without balance.

It's OK though as the female right brain will temper masculine steel -and the male and female will work in harmony together, today we are mainly black and white- one day we will be gray.

Gray is the vibration the soul likes best it seeks it out in all things, the hologramme tells us this- the colour wheel shows the way complementory colours please the eyes -the window to the soul, complementry colours when mixed together make gray.

You are right Bill now is the beginning time for the scales of balance -male female, logic intuition, black white, we all should be a perfect balance of both contrasts, this is why we are compelled to add to this thread.

I think in higher dimensions beings are both masculine and feminine together at the same time!

"If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different."

I'm not so sure about this. There are plenty of women who are like Hilary Clinton who would rise to positions of power. Do you really think the world would be any better off with women such as her being in charge? I have seen my share of girls fights over the years, and we can be every bit as vicious as any male. We can be even more vicious and cutting with our words.

Women do hold 50% of the responsibility of how both their daughters and sons are raised. If mothers are fearful of their husbands that sends a powerful message to their children of BOTH sexes, and the cycle is repeated again.

I agree with Target, its not just all us and its a polarized view, there is truth in it but its a itsy bitsy teeny weeny bit skewed, I will return to this thread later on, first I'm going to drink three bottles of Chianti and eat funky cheese with my best German friend, a young lady who's ten years younger, has tattoos of skulls and roses on her arms, wings on her back, and has so many iron rings in her body that she attracts refrigerator magnets, she eats dudes for breakfast, drives Caterpillars and reachtrucks, is the best cook you have ever met, best lover I have ever met, and she is sexy as hell, men, she loves them and hates them and together we are going to discuss in no uncertain terms what we think of each other (men/women), get in heated debates, laugh our asses off in the meantime and will be extremely vulgar to blow of some steam, this will be watched by the dog ( bitch)who thinks this is absolutely hilarious, we are equals, completely, she can bitch about men, I get to bitch about women and in the end we always meet in the middle, as it should be, and I consider that to be very enlightened, I don't feel any guilt about what men have done in the past, I see the results but don't participate in recreating them, I see a heated debate coming, but also remember to keep this somewhat light footed and don't forget to smile, its not about his or her fault anymore, YOU are solely responsible for how you treat anybody, what sex someone is should not matter in the least.

She is the only one I can truly relate to, the only one who sees my tears, the only one who tells me to grow a pair, I...........for that am the only one who gets to see her tears.....but only if I tell her lose a pair, acting tough as nails out of necessity can be a real bitch........ at least we know each other well enough to recognize each other as total equals, to me that counts for everything, grow a pair or lose a pair, sometimes its what we all got to do.

I'm off but will return, perhaps unfortunately.

Have a good and productive evening, y'all.

See you on the flipside or flip you on the seeside.

On the whole men have caused a great deal of distress on the planet, no question about it. I do believe we could benefit if society were generally matriarchal, although as other posters have pointed out, there are some "doozy" women out there as well. One plus that men do generally have over women is that we are more driven by logic whereas many women are more influenced by emotion/feelings. The latter can be dangerous, especially in a world where everything is not warm and fuzzy.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.

• I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
• I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
• Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
• If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

They don’t know how to be whatever it is to be truly masculine, because they’re confused by Hollywood movies and archetypes and comic strips and a whole bunch of stuff that’s been coming at them, ever since they were kids. And they know that that’s not right. But they don’t know what is right.

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This is an important point, but I think that in many cases, "they" don't actually know that it's not right. I put that word in quotations because, although I am male, I do not abuse women, objectify them, or buy into the perverted modern standards of masculinity. Perhaps "they" would know, if they were inclined to listen to their intuition, or their conscience. They might have some sense of that wrongness deep down, but it is a sense that they are fighting, denying, or running away from.

The idea of what constitutes masculinity, and what is required of men to be -REAL- men has become vastly twisted. True men do not seek to conquer and destroy. True men do not require absolute obedience and submission. These are not signs of strength, though they are all too often mistaken to be.

I read a few of the posts that generated this thread, and to those women here and elsewhere who have had the misfortune of only engaging with the abusive, egotistic, 'macho' men; I am deeply sorry. Sorry that this is such a prevalent issue in modern society, sorry for the pain they have caused you, and sorry that they have tarnished the reputations of other men and caused you to lose hope in meeting a decent gentlemen who would honor you, respect you, and treat you as an equal and fellow individual (as you deserve to be treated).

One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that older women are basically 'invisible' to males not only in many situations in the 3D world but especially on UFO/paranormal internet forums. There was a time when I would never show a pic of myself and reveal my age in forums for that reason but after seeing too many older females ignored even though what they had to say about something was so much more coherent than what the vast majority of younger members who would be commenting on the same topic, I changed my mind and revealed my age and showed my pic just to show my support and respect for those women on those forums who were already doing that. But the truth is, some of those forums out there do not like older women revealing themselves on their forums. There's a lot of prejudice and even passive-aggressive discrimination there.

I think this is a doubled edged sword. My father was a violent man.When I was little I watched him
beat my mother several times. I told myself I would never be like him! I told myself that when i
grew up and became a father and husband I would be a good man. I met my wife in the spring of 98.
She appeared to be a very normal person and I was young and in love so we married in 2000.
I probably missed the warning signs, being in love does that to a person. She was insanely jealous.
I remember the first time she hit me. I was sitting on the couch with her watching a televison show
I think it was Melrose place. During the program there was a hottub scene and I jokingly said to my
wife she is a little busty. The next thing I know my wife smacks me in the mouth.
Over the next few years the violence increased and got worse. Anytime I disagreed with her or she
got angry she would hit me or throw something at me. One time she was mad at me during a family
BBQ so she picked up a bbq fork and threw it at me, and stuck it in my back.

Why did I stay? She would always apologize to me and I had 2 kids with her at this point.
I could not speak to other women when I was married to her or I was sleeping with them
according to her. In one of her fits she bloodied my nose & mouth and I told her, "what are
you going to do when you make me mad enough to hit you back" and she smiled and said
you dont have the balls. It finally culminated in the summer 2004. She came home drunk
and angry.I was sitting on the couch with my 2 year old son josh on my lap. She picked up
a vase that was setting on an in table. She stood over the top of me with the vase drawn
back to hit me. At first I held my hand up to protect myself and my son but eventually
lowered my hand because I didnt think she would endanger our son. The next thing I know
SMASH on the side of my head. It almost Knocked me unconcious. I got up, My head was
bleeding. I put my son on the other couch away from the broken glass. I reached out and
grabbed her by the neck.I had my fist pulled back to let her have it. I looked over and my
son was crying so I let her go and called the police. When they arrived they were going to
take her to jail but my kids were hysterical at this point so I told the officers I would leave
my home if they would not take her to jail. The officers reluctantly agreed.

Oh yes women can be just has abusive has a men.

I think this is relevant here as it does demonstrate at least one area where we have gone wrong as a society. I was listening to an interview on the radio with the ex-editor of Loaded about a documentary called Sex on the Brain showing in the UK on Channel 4 on Monday night. It was about the terrible influence access to pornography (some of which is very sadistic) on the internet is having on young boys and some girls. How young girls are being equated to porn stars and ... well you can imagine the rest or read the attachment (which is more about him than the documentary). I had a frank discussion with my own offspring about this - luckily we have always been able to talk about what for some are taboo subjects - and was shocked to learn some of the stuff that is out there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...or-Loaded.html

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Posted by TargeT

Are you saying the nasty, manipulative, selfish women learned what they do from men only?

Ive known women that twist situations to their liking with no reguard for anyone involved (male or female) doing things that take a feminine thinking style that I struggle to understand.

I may be wrong; but reading the quoted post, it seems like you are demonizing males excessively, its too extreme.

I am very proud to be a man; I am not proud of "men" in general but my identity is mine to forge (no thanks to the pre-programmed crap) and while I dont condone the masculinity I often see, I also know from many examples this is not a black and white situation.

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Yes (as Tesla said also), some women can be pretty mean. But (as a rule!) --

• they don't start wars;
• they don't sadistically torture;
• they don't sexually abuse children;
• they have not ridden or sailed (or flown!) out in hordes to conquer other cultures;
• they don't slaughter animals for the sake of being macho.

Of course, there will always be exceptions (see my response to Snookie below). As a rule, though, women aren't a fraction as destructive and violent. Being mean, nasty and scheming is different. All humans are susceptible to that.

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Posted by Snookie

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"If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different."

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I'm not so sure about this. There are plenty of women who are like Hilary Clinton who would rise to positions of power.

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I think the situation here (and also with Margaret Thatcher, another famous example) is that a small handful of women enter what is really a man's game and then try to "win" by copying male strategies.

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Posted by giovonni

We Are All Humans First !

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Amen to that. I'm a spiritual being riding around right now in a male body. ALL of us are spiritual beings occupying whatever body we've chosen (or, in some cases, settled for).

Much of the deeply ingrained gender differences are hardwired into the body -- and are not always able to be controlled by the spiritual being who is supposedly in charge.

We always have to remember that all bodies have their own intelligence, their own agenda, their own hang-ups, and their own history. And some of that, we, riding along in them, may not even know about.

The purposeful pitting of men against women and women against men is maybe the best tool the controllers have to divide and conquer us.

It's self-evident that cooperation and mutual respect between the sexes would, in one massive stroke, break down global tyranny almost overnight.

The combined power of male and female, masculine and feminine (in whatever form) could literally renovate the soul of the world.

Here's an interview with Catherine Austin Fitts.

The whole interview is great, but the last 10-15 minutes or so she expresses very eloquently just how and why cooperation between the sexes will be a big part of the potential and future success of humankind.

Don't be ashamed of your gender. Don't be cow-towed by the war between the sexes.

Think bigger.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2C5nJsPR4dI

http://youtu.be/Vnbi2tiTHAk

This is a great 15 minute video.

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Posted by eric1

One plus that men do generally have over women is that we are more driven by logic whereas many women are more influenced by emotion/feelings. The latter can be dangerous, especially in a world where everything is not warm and fuzzy."

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Actually....So far in my observations of men and women, the notion that MEN ARE MORE LOGICAL and WOMEN EMOTIONAL - is not the case. If LOGIC were properly used, then we wouldn't be destroying our only ecosystem. If LOGIC were used, why would we rush to BOMB and KILL people?

What I see currently is that the classic MALE/FEMALE paradigms are dissolving - for many reasons - including the number of hormones in food and water - but also because we are evolving within and out of IDENTITY POLITICS and a revolution of material identity, hopefully beyond it, to conscious awareness that we are the LIFE inside the BODY, not the Body alone.

My brother recently sued a large pharma company for changing epileptic medicine and not telling the patients. A bunch of them died. He interviewed many of the pharma workers and was amazed that both men and women were aware of the potential dangers and did nothing because they were getting paid to be quiet.

Female genital mutilation? It's the WOMEN who do it to their daughters.
All of us are to blame. (I love you, please forgive me.)

The matriarchy was not balanced. The patriarchy neither. The goal is a HETERARCHY. This is embodied in the Star of David and the Merkaba - the balancing of male and female.

I recommend taking another read of ANTIGONE which very clearly acts out the tragic roles Men and Women play when they continue negative pathworking.

A great mind and man, Russ Ackoff, made a brilliant point: It is better to do the RIGHT thing WRONG, then the WRONG thing RIGHT. Keep at it, mistakes will be made, forgive them, for the path to doing the Right thing Right will come when the intention and will is there.

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Posted by TargeT

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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In my opening post, I quoted several paragraphs from the transcript of my interview with Lucia René. These fully represent my own views.

I wanted to make a clearer (brief!) personal statement of my views, which my closest friends know I've held for a long time.

• I'm not in any way proud to be a man.
• I feel ashamed of what all men have done to the planet and the human race over the millennia.
• Men are fundamentally warlike, controlling, domineering, and destructive. The more enlightened and aware men are fully aware of this tendency in their gender-disposition and always seek to compensate.
• If the world were populated (somehow!) entirely by women, I do believe the entire planet, and most cultures, would be entirely different.

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Isnt that just a bit too polarized?

Are you saying the nasty, manipulative, selfish women learned what they do from men only?

Ive known women that twist situations to their liking with no reguard for anyone involved (male or female) doing things that take a feminine thinking style that I struggle to understand.

I may be wrong; but reading the quoted post, it seems like you are demonizing males excessively, its too extreme.

I am very proud to be a man; I am not proud of "men" in general but my identity is mine to forge (no thanks to the pre-programmed crap) and while I dont condone the masculinity I often see, I also know from many examples this is not a black and white situation.

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In the past, this type of woman controlled by stealth. Now they hide behind feminist ideology to impose their will. Agreed.

Having said that I don't disagree with most of the comments on this thread. They are all completely legitimate and many are based on personal experience.

I have been exposed to a few feminine vipers and a psychopathic man. Thank God, only one! I think it's important to draw a distinction between psychologically healthy individuals and those who are deeply damaged.

It is really tough to be a man right now. The polarity between the sexes isn't there anymore. Women are becoming more masculine in terms of self sufficiency, the way they relate to others, and many other little ways. Men are expected to be masculine, strong, confident, and sexy. But...these traits actually run counter to sensitivity, caring, nurturing, passive.

What's a guy to do? It has to be very confusing. And little boys being brought up to think that the state of the world is due to their gender, specifically, are given a very negative message.

I don't know if the world would be a better place if it was run by women. You would see the most aggressive women out-competing their more passive sisters. It would look very much the same.

My feeling is this issue goes way beyond just gender but way into metaphysically murky realms. I have studied kabbalistic concepts for a long time now and part of these teachings have to do with the tree of life with one side being masculine/positive and the other side being the feminine/negative and center being the way to integrate and balance the two. This was not a static process but a continuing dynamic balancing act as life is constantly on the move.

In my view both sides are currently manifesting in this world in a very imbalanced manner and, as each of us has both masculine and feminine characteristics that sometimes don’t even match our physical gender, this issue affects everyone regardless of gender. Nature is associated with the feminine. Space is associated with a more masculine energy in general. I believe we originally were not imbalanced and something actually came from outside this once beautiful garden and infected us with its “gender bias”. It does not understand biological life and, in fact, seems to behave and induce others to behave in a very non, or anti-life manner. It continuously inflames us to behave in a way that suggests we have become almost completely cut off from our more intuitive side that tends to act in ways that preserve life and community. Masculine energy when balanced also actually tends to act in a way that preserves life so it is clearly not balanced. But it’s not too late, in fact, I believe our time of awakening is at hand. We know more about this insidious enemy than we ever have and knowledge is our friend. There are many threads here on Avalon to attest to that.

I read a book called The Chalice and the Blade many years ago. I can’t find it right now as I still have a lot of my books in storage but the author talks about how there is a lot of evidence to suggest a time when many inhabitants of earth did not feel the need to fortify their places of habitation. Then the “Kurgans” came down off the steppes in successive waves, over and over again (there is some controversy over this hypothesis but it may have been something like this). They raped, pillaged, and plundered without reservation (and so infected us with their genes and ways of life). I have always wondered what would have caused them to do that. I actually have many theories as do many others, but obviously not much to go on. I believe the answer to why things are the way they are today harken back to that time period. The good news is, the more we recognize those behaviors in ourselves and in society, the more we can work to bring about change. I think many are sick of conflict and are beginning to see how much of it is falsely manufactured. Many are truly ready for peace and realize it starts on the inside first. But this force that is against life is also hard at work continuing to inflame and bring out the seeming devil in some.

Sometimes the answer in the real world can be simple. I can’t stand to hear men or women tearing each other down. I will walk away before I contribute and my husband will as well. I remember him telling me how he couldn’t even stand to be in the same room with “the guys” at work in the morning because they would all stand around and bash the women in their lives. They also knew he was disgusted with their behavior and learned not to talk that way when he was around. Even if we don’t know where this energy originated we can counter it by awareness and not feeding the beast.

Well, the title of the thread is too limiting. Do we really need to discuss how men abuse women? Males abuse women, women abuse men, men and women abuse each other, we are stuck in a polarized patriarch which fosters abuse, polarizes genders, objectifies women, encourages energy vampirism, divisiveness, and foments extreme aberration...

When, both men and women have both feminine and masculine energy, both hemispheres of the brain, an endrogenous soul, and a mind to think and a body to feel regardless of gender...

Until we have a context for viewing the energies which manifest such aberrations, the discussion will invariably remain in gender 3D.

I’m one of those woman that married someone twenty years older. We lived together and I reached a point where it was time for me to move on and he asked me to marry him. I brought youth and he brought security when he passed on. We never combined finances and always split the bills right down the middle. (I’ll do things differently next time.) I cheered him on while he gathered up hard earned accolades and titles up the wazoo.

We hit a very very, long dry patch in our relationship. I thought it was ‘male menopause’. Naive wife wore a compassion hat that went on well passed anything I'd be open to today. We shared a refrigerator and that was all. Then he asked me for a divorce because there was another. Her face flashed in my mind’s eye, and it was the one that had taken me out for lunch several years earlier. She’s thirty-four years younger than him.

I was relieved and hurt. I asked him to please be as honest and open as he’d ever been in his life. I’ve got smarts, street savvy, life experience, I’m fitful, and have a profession. What am I missing? How I can make it better in my next relationship? His answer was nothing. It wasn’t me. And I got that. And I understood our nineteen year karmic contract was completed.

We met up for lunch with his lawyer before we headed over to the court house. I didn’t hire one. It was his lawyer that couldn’t understand why the divorce. Something about the love we had for one another he didn’t see in his profession. My response was that we were better house mates than lovers. There was awkward nano-seconds of silence between the three of us and head shakes of acknowledgement. My ex-hubby fess up about the other woman.

Still today, he’s a dear, dear friend. The three of us meet up for dinner visits.

I believe men and women are extracting what anchors them from [fill in the blank here because I’m still figuring it out].

A month ago, a friend asked, “What about a man in my life?” My response was, “No. But I haven’t ruled it out. If it happens, I’m happy. If it doesn’t, I’m happy. And I’ll know. And so will he.”

Love for Love’s sake. Love of self and Self. It’s key in partnership. That’s the new energy I see just ahead.

at one time i added to the misery of this world.in my desperate attempts to surpress the truth of the gift of the soul.spirit.i couldnt bear it.i couldnt handle the heavy.i became a junky.solved the first problem but led to a dark side of life alott only glimpse on the news or in a passing.seen first hand many times just how truly insane and selfish we can be.truly how ignorant we are.i have lived with killers.abusers.the worst of the worse.sold dope to some.and to the abused.selling drugs brought me into many dynamics of family life.women and men.husbands fathers.mothers and daughters.all walks of life.income to a junky....??..men were always the worse.way more violent..i never had to watch my back from a gun totting female junky dead set on my drugs or life.both.always men. it was my grmmother.my mother who refused to turn there backs on me.not my dad.there love was waiting for me everytime.even if i didnt deserve it.love saved me.love from a women.that love gave me the power to even want to begin forgiving myself.they didnt fix me..just showed me i was worth saving..i took it from there...im still a work in progress.thank the divine source for females.women.

Our Most Important Mission Ever: Stop Violence Against Women Now

Gripreaper, I hope you agree that women objectify themselves --- that it is not always imposed on them. It is a way of garnering control and becoming powerful. Young women today grew up with feminist mothers (and fathers) who taught them all about using their minds and hearts to get ahead--and still they use their bodies in this way and to an alarming degree.

That is the coolest thing I have read in a while. It speaks volume for your maturity and wisdom. Thanks!

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Posted by Paula

I’m one of those woman that married someone twenty years older. We lived together and I reached a point where it was time for me to move on and he asked me to marry him. I brought youth and he brought security when he passed on. We never combined finances and always split the bills right down the middle. (I’ll do things differently next time.) I cheered him on while he gathered up hard earned accolades and titles up the wazoo.

We hit a very very, long dry patch in our relationship. I thought it was ‘male menopause’. Naive wife wore a compassion hat that went on well passed anything I'd be open to today. We shared a refrigerator and that was all. Then he asked me for a divorce because there was another. Her face flashed in my mind’s eye, and it was the one that had taken me out for lunch several years earlier. She’s thirty-four years younger than he.

I was relieved and hurt. I asked him to please be as honest and open as he’d ever been in his life. I’ve got smarts, street savvy, life experience, I’m fitful, and have a profession. What am I missing? How I can make it better in my next relationship? His answer was nothing. It wasn’t me. And I got that. And I understood our nineteen year karmic contract was completed.

We met up for lunch with his lawyer before we headed over to the court house. I didn’t hire one. It was his lawyer that couldn’t understand why the divorce. Something about the love we had for one another he didn’t see in his profession. My response was that we were better house mates than lovers. There was awkward nano-seconds of silence between the three of us and head shakes of acknowledgement. My ex-hubby fess up about the other woman.

Still today, he’s a dear, dear friend. The three of us meet up for dinner visits.

I believe men and women are extracting what anchors them from [fill in the blank here because I’m still figuring it out].

A month ago, a friend asked, “What about a man in my life?” My response was, “No. But I haven’t ruled it out. If it happens, I’m happy. If it doesn’t, I’m happy. And I’ll know. And so will he.”

Love for Love’s sake. Love of self and Self. It’s key in partnership. That’s the new energy I see just ahead.

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My comments will possibly induce anger in some people but I think, but also in my experience, the change of attitude in both men and women has to come from the women. Women are the mothers of these baby boys, these toddlers, first and foremost. They are their first teachers. How a boy relates to his mother as he is growing is how he will also pick a marriage partner to a large extent. If that mother has a victim mentality and has attracted a tyrant of a husband then her relationship with her children will be governed by that to a large extent. But even in that case a mothers natural fierceness and protectiveness toward her children will cause her to develope some backbone if the father is abusive to his children. I speak from experience here as my husband was mentally and emotionally abusive toward his children and I stood between them.

It's impossible to generalize on this subject, all cases are different and unique. I would say it would be terribly difficult for an Afghan woman for instance to stand up to any male, and yet women in Afghanistan are doing just that. Even in those oppressive countries it is still the women, those heroic women, who have to stand up and be counted.

In every man there is their feminine aspect, and in every woman there is their male aspect. In the old way of being where the latent aspects were denied or suppressed a man and woman have to attract their opposite gender to be/feel complete. In the rising of consciousness, or the expanding of consciousness, the latent male of a female and the latent female is realized and brought forth. So then the man and the woman is complete in themselves and has no great yearning to form a whole ness by attracting the opposite gender. They have transcended the duality of this 3D realm. This does not mean that no relationships are formed, it just means that each relationship or friendship is of two whole people who are complete in themselves. This realizing of the completed inner self is where we are all heading.

In the meantime we have to deal with the worlds base sexually which is firmly held in the males first seal. It is quite sickening. Where via television little girls and boys are sexualised by programming and ads from a very young age. But, to me it's still the women standing up and saying NO to this. Women are not as stuck in their first sex seal as men are. They have been taught over the centuries to use their sexuality to survive. Men have made whores of women because they are whores! This is a sad state of affairs but it's not all men who are like this fortunately. A large part of mankind is just wonderful. I was saddened by Bill's comment about being male. Fathers today are fabulous men in the most part. They take a full part in raising their children and have realized their feminine qualities to a large extent. This doesn't mean they are feminine men. It just means their wonderful maleness is tempered by gentleness, compassion, kindness, playfulness. I could go on and on here but I celebrate the men in my life. My son and son-in-laws and great dads and great husbands. They actually couldn't be anything less having attracted and married strong, feisty, no-nonsense women! Even my old husband is getting a second chance interacting with his grandchildren and he's great with them and they love him to bits.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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Posted by Flash

Gee, just lost my post on the other thread. Posted as it was being closed.

Frustrating.:p

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Sorry!! My sincere apologies. There's absolutely no way for the mods to know if someone is drafting a post while a thread is being closed. Please continue here. The topic itself (of this new thread) is very important indeed.

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No need to apologize, I understand very well. I will come back to the thread, but not now, I have to submit papers this week and have an exam on something I studied 30 years ago (can't remember) and I am way back.

So expect me past mid week, it will be a pleasure.

Carmen,

I think the first thing mothers have to do is stop getting their sons circumsized.

There you are, eight days old usually, without pain killer, utterly helpless, and someone cuts off a piece of your manhood. WTF? And you see mother and father smiling down at you, as you go through the worst pain you have ever felt in your short life.

And we wonder at all the altered personalities walking around exercising extreme and violent control over their environment, their relationships... From a very very young age. Talk about fostering a sense of betrayal, abandonment, and horror, cemented into the very root and foundation of personality and self.

We think female genital mutilation is horrible, but it goes both ways. We just don't see it that way yet.

There is a reason a split personality is created in the male from time immemorial. How else would we have war without male rage, that has no identified source? A split personality that can be manipulated to view any target you can imagine, as the source?

It takes RAGE to grow up to become someone that sets women on fire, throws acid in women's faces, kills an eight year old on her wedding night, stones females to death, laugh proudly and post pictures of gang rape on social sites, and create "justice" systems to maintain the insanity.

It is very insane what we see going on around us.

Sierra

I have a question: if women are excluded from jobs and positions of power which would give them practice in using logic rather than emotion,
how can anyone aware of this system seriously say and expect to be believed in saying, women *are by nature* "more emotional" than men..?

I think anyone stuffed into a box and called inept by "bigger stronger better" members of the species would become emotionally distraught.

Yet another bar of the cage = putting all women into the category of being "too/more emotional".

If it was true that we are all less logical and more emotional, then you wouldn't see women like me posting to black hole physics threads and avoiding the "death in the family/women vs. men" sort of threads...

It's safe to say that "normal" men and women BOTH seek to avoid emotional conflict most of the time, but some of us are RELEGATED to the unpleasant role of wiping butts and tears.

I know of very few people who have had their sons circumsized. In this country it seems to be a Catholic habit!

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Posted by Carmen

I know of very few people who have had their sons circumsized. In this country it seems to be a Catholic habit!

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And Jewish, and Muslim ... :)

It is interesting because last night Music and I had an interesting discussion about something relevant to this discussion. We were talking about the effect of testosterone on men's behaviour. I remember friends when I was teenager bashing each other up...for fun. I remember friends sometimes being almost overtaken with the need to be violent. As a woman I found it difficult to understand.

We were talking about how in our society there are very few positive channels for this energy that is activated by testosterone. With our son we feel that it will be important to provide healthy outlets so that he can learn to use this energy in a constructive rather than a destructive way.

In the past in tribal situations there were many rites of passage for men that assisted them to become honourable men who functioned as a part of a community. I believe the disappearance of these rites have greatly contributed to the social problems we face today, as young men grow up without a strong sense of belonging.