Man, the psychopath. Will nature fight back?

[Ravenlocke]

“ Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis...”


Hi Pris,

Have you heard or ever read about the Findhorn community how it started that is and not so much what it is today. It may help with the questions about eating and planting and raising vegetables and fruit.
Also the book, “To Hear the Angels Sing” by Dorothy Maclean who lived at Findhorn and communicated with the devas of various vegetables etc, may help as well.

[Pris]

.

Posted by Ravenlocke (here)
“ Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis...”


Hi Pris,

Have you heard or ever read about the Findhorn community how it started that is and not so much what it is today. It may help with the questions about eating and planting and raising vegetables and fruit.
Also the book, “To Hear the Angels Sing” by Dorothy Maclean who lived at Findhorn and communicated with the devas of various vegetables etc, may help as well.

Thanks for that, Ravenlocke! No, I've not heard of the Findhorn community ("intentional living"). However, I used to keep myself informed on Ubuntu communities and The Venus Project a few years back.

I did a quick search and found this video on Findhorn... You're sure right that it's not what it started as. It's been infiltrated and corrupted by the globalist agenda. Really too bad but no surprise. They use all the right buzz words and follow the NWO goals/lies. "Sustainability", "climate solutions", "electric vehicles"... Actually, it looks very much like a 15 minute city, doesn't it?... Everybody sharing everything, living together in a tight, rules-based community... less privacy... eating bug burgers (joke, not really) while the "elitist overlords" (who own everything for themselves), fly their personal jets and live in their multi-million dollar mansions on acres of private land (while they take away our plastic bags to carry our groceries in and guilt us into recycling our tin cans), find ways to get their industry leaders inside the community to steer the movement to their agenda. Clearly, that's what's already happened.

It's so much easier to steer a movement than it is to steer an individual.


About the Findhorn Ecovillage

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DcfcgeJfoMY

Thanks for the book suggestion (with regard to our interaction with nature, zucchinis etc :D), I'll check that out.

One thing I'm figuring out as I go, it's good to live and remain as independent as possible. That way there's less chance of being taken advantage of and being manipulated.

[shaberon]

Posted by Harmony (here)
The next steps in evolution do seem to require cooperation of a large percentage of other people to work along with them for a society to evolve. The free will we have does seem to need to be aligned towards shared goals using the unique gifts of each member of society so as to bring it to a point of some kind of transformation or paradgm shift. The difference between that shift and the WEF AI tyranical forced ideals are that our free will to be come the best that we can be is because we choose it from an inner knowledge we have gained over many lifetimes through a kind of love for the betterment of all.

Granted that maybe "evolution" is not the best choice of word, this still comes pretty close to a reasonable "social contract".

And so yes, "evolution" and related vocabulary are from the WEF-and-alikes playbook. In fact it can be difficult to learn how to talk *without* using any of their parables.

The large difference in the experiences is that the current social contract is--


statist, collective: I dwell in an imaginary box, and, collectively with its other denizens, we accumulate enough energy and food to survive


whereas "free will" at the very least would imply that you *wanted* to do that.

What would lead us to actually, voluntarily enter a social contract?

The one the United States was made from was a rejection of British authority and willingness to shoot them. That decision has not come up for review in my lifetime, it does not seem to apply to any common cause, which would be difficult anyway, no common cause can be found. Therefor, no kind of voluntary social contract.

This is probably different from many places because the States have so many kinds of mixed origin that it winds up having no culture.

So for me, at least, it is impossible to conceive of anything resembling a substantial agreement with a large percentage of others around me. Part of the Fabian method is to make you alienated, and this is what it is like.



As for Insecticide, here's one from the Witches:


A Toad.


That is good for your garden/houseplants, etc., but it won't bomb a roach colony.

Also, other predators--spiders, wasps, mantises (had one on the window earlier).

The oldest clever thing I have heard of was from South Africa about 100,000 years ago.

There were various kinds of reeds which looked like they had to be imported from distance, hundreds of miles away. They were woven into bedding which is believed to be of an insect repellant nature. That makes sense because otherwise why would you transport such a thing so far.


From experience I would say that Diatomaceous Earth and natural oils can be anywhere from partially to completely effective, but that is with regard to typical pests and not major infestations.

To get rid of fruit flies, put water in a jar with some liquid dish detergent and a few drops of vinegar. Use a rubber band to cover it with plastic wrap, and poke some holes with a toothpick or small knife. This will get rid of at least as many flies as any product on the market, and can probably get rid of all of them.


I would suggest that most health and sanitation concerns are with agents of rot which can be heavily spread by insects.

It is all a matter of conditions.

Adjusted another way, "raw nature" will blow sourdough starter in your window. This, and the art of fermentation, are traditions worth keeping.

It has recently been pointed out to me about the Mycelium and how the whole top layer of soil is like one big mushroom.

It just blooms differently according to conditions.

It gives off spores too, but it is mainly one long fungus going everywhere, and is certainly involved with the subterranean communication of trees. They are able to "say" they have excess calcium or some nutrient deficiency, and another tree, either directly through its roots, or, via the mycelium, will make an adjustment.

That is impressive for cooperative survival mode, but, I am not sure it could "do" anything to the human species.

[shaberon]

Posted by Pris (here)
You're sure right that it's not what it started as. It's been infiltrated and corrupted by the globalist agenda. Really too bad but no surprise

There's almost nothing that this does not apply to.

Consequently to what I just posted on social contracting, there's:


nothing to join.

It's possible there are a tiny handful of exceptions, but nothing much of any size escapes the attention of vested interests.

The strange result is that Russia is really entering the role the United States once had, i. e. an abundance of available land. It is so raw you have to put in your own dirt road to even get there. Does this mean in a hundred years they will be a miscegenated non-culture from sporadic immigration? Or will it still be more or less Russia? I don't know, but you cannot do anything with land cheaply around here. Whatever sense of community had sprung in the early expansion of manual agriculture is lost.

At one point in time, there was a trend for instance of Virginia communes, which mostly proved to be failures, so perhaps there is an element of caution needed here.

[Arcturian108]

Sad news: The Findhorn community is no longer conducting educational courses of any kind due to financial problems. It may eventually restructure, but as of now it appears to have ceased to exist in a recognizable fashion: https://wildhunt.org/2023/09/findhor...rogrammes.html

[Pris]

.

Posted by shaberon (here)
It has recently been pointed out to me about the Mycelium and how the whole top layer of soil is like one big mushroom.

This is just freakin' cool.

Posted by shaberon (here)
Adjusted another way, "raw nature" will blow sourdough starter in your window. This, and the art of fermentation, are traditions worth keeping.

Already doing this. ... I call him Enki and have had this fellow for many years now.

Posted by shaberon (here)
To get rid of fruit flies, put water in a jar with some liquid dish detergent and a few drops of vinegar. Use a rubber band to cover it with plastic wrap, and poke some holes with a toothpick or small knife. This will get rid of at least as many flies as any product on the market, and can probably get rid of all of them.

Going to try this!

[palehorse]

Posted by Pris (here)
.

Posted by Ravenlocke (here)
“ Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis...”


Hi Pris,

Have you heard or ever read about the Findhorn community how it started that is and not so much what it is today. It may help with the questions about eating and planting and raising vegetables and fruit.
Also the book, “To Hear the Angels Sing” by Dorothy Maclean who lived at Findhorn and communicated with the devas of various vegetables etc, may help as well.

Thanks for that, Ravenlocke! No, I've not heard of the Findhorn community ("intentional living"). However, I used to keep myself informed on Ubuntu communities and The Venus Project a few years back.

I did a quick search and found this video on Findhorn... You're sure right that it's not what it started as. It's been infiltrated and corrupted by the globalist agenda. Really too bad but no surprise. They use all the right buzz words and follow the NWO goals/lies. "Sustainability", "climate solutions", "electric vehicles"... Actually, it looks very much like a 15 minute city, doesn't it?... Everybody sharing everything, living together in a tight, rules-based community... less privacy... eating bug burgers (joke, not really) while the "elitist overlords" (who own everything for themselves), fly their personal jets and live in their multi-million dollar mansions on acres of private land (while they take away our plastic bags to carry our groceries in and guilt us into recycling our tin cans), find ways to get their industry leaders inside the community to steer the movement to their agenda. Clearly, that's what's already happened.

It's so much easier to steer a movement than it is to steer an individual.


About the Findhorn Ecovillage

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DcfcgeJfoMY

Thanks for the book suggestion (with regard to our interaction with nature, zucchinis etc :D), I'll check that out.

One thing I'm figuring out as I go, it's good to live and remain as independent as possible. That way there's less chance of being taken advantage of and being manipulated.

Hi Pris, from my own experience not once living in intentional community I can say that everything that I came in contact or knew from others failed, when it grows at certain point it fails, even anarchist communities end up with leaders lol

I know that primitive models like cells works well if respected the limits of growth, which when reached can simply replicate it self into another cell and keep growing that way, no leaders are require the cells are self adjustable, al it requires are the conscious beings taking care of themselves.

I would really love to see something different that works, but so far based on my own experience that is pretty much what I know works currently, but not everyone has the mindset to pursue it, when talk about communities nowadays people think of wonders and nobody has to work, full service sort of thing lol maybe I am from another planet, I can't understand modern life.

Posted by shaberon (here)
...
At one point in time, there was a trend for instance of Virginia communes, which mostly proved to be failures, so perhaps there is an element of caution needed here.

Absolutely they all failed at some point. It is pretty much the same pattern with everything that grows and grab attention from the top, it end up with filth agents infiltrated and in no time it ether abide to weird rules or cease to exist. Going small one can't go wrong. I gave up large communities, I don't trust it.




[edited]
sorry if off-topic, but let me expand a bit here on this topic.

I am constantly looking into communities and what I wrote above does not mean that I consider them out of purpose of their existence, I know these communities all start with great dreams and lots of extremely well committed people, hard workers and so on.. but the old problem of corruption is always present and if the founders of the community allow that to happen, be it due to greediness or whatever, it just proves the community didn't have that level of maturity yet.. But we can learn from their mistakes, we can learn from their modus operandi too, compile the best out of it and avoid repeating their mistakes, errors, etc.. in other words we always learn. My guts says if you really want to get it right, the key is not to have any leadership, just a blueprint of howtos, then anyone can follow and establish on their own.. it is also important to have some sort of council to meet often and discuss ideas for the blueprint, after all it can always be improved and also it should have no MONEY involved in any way shape or form.

Like old saying: you want to do it, it has to be out of your heart!

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by shaberon (here)
...
To get rid of fruit flies, put water in a jar with some liquid dish detergent and a few drops of vinegar. Use a rubber band to cover it with plastic wrap, and poke some holes with a toothpick or small knife. This will get rid of at least as many flies as any product on the market, and can probably get rid of all of them.

Here's a variation on that theme that I have found to be extremely effective for fruit flies:

Instead of a vinegar or soapy water pool of death, put a small piece of tomato or strawberry scraps in the glass. Just as shaberon suggests, cover the jar with plastic wrap stretched over the glass secured with a rubber band and poke a dozen holes with a toothpick. Like junkies to heroin, all the fruit flies within the room will be drawn to the smell and will squeeze through the holes in the plastic. You now have the choice to take the glass outdoors and release the fruit flies. (I may be ignorant) but I don't remember reading that fruit flies are a disease vector, just an annoyance, and so capitol punishment may be literally overkill.

Fleas, however, are known to be a disease vector (bubonic plague, etc.) and many pet owners will have to fight a battle with fleas at some point. For this pest, a pool of death is effective and maybe warranted. The idea of setting off insecticide bombs in the house where you live and breathe is insane, and here's a method to kill them without poison:
The contraption you'll McGuyver is basically a pan of water with a light bulb heat source suspended over it. Fleas leap toward the heat source, fall into the pan of water, and drown. I've used a pie tin, an old-school coat hanger wire bent into a light bulb socket holder, and a relatively low wattage (40W or 60W) incandescent bulb for a heat source. A single small drop of dishwashing detergent in the water will break the water's surface tension and ensure that the fleas will go under the water.

Also, regarding las cucarachas, I think diatomaceous earth (DE) kills because of physical sharpness of the diatoms, and boric acid powder kills by dessication. I've used boric acid when I lived in "student slum" buildings that had cockroaches, and I've tried DE with mixed success in the garden to stop cutworms. A ring of stiff paper/thin cardboard around each plant's young stem was more effective and the DE can be put around the ring for extra protection. I've had cutworms that killed almost every young plant in my organic garden in one night, and had to find a solution.

The most amazing thing I've ever seen anyone do to "control" ants in the house was by an unconventional artist friend that had a stream of tiny ants coming into his house. He dissolved sugar in water and painted an artistic, looping trail on his wall, ending in a corner of the window frame where there was a tiny hole to the outside. It wasn't really an effective solution, but it was hilarious to see the ants dutifully following the trail, creating living art. Of course, the degree of an ant problem depends on the ant species - fire ants, carpenter ants, or army ants aren't such a delightful guest or neighbor. (See the book: Leinington Versus the Ants for a drastic example.)

[Pris]

.

Posted by palehorse (here)
Hi Pris, from my own experience not once living in intentional community I can say that everything that I came in contact or knew from others failed, when it grows at certain point it fails, even anarchist communities end up with leaders lol

...

I would really love to see something different that works, but so far based on my own experience that is pretty much what I know works currently, but not everyone has the mindset to pursue it, when talk about communities nowadays people think of wonders and nobody has to work, full service sort of thing lol maybe I am from another planet, I can't understand modern life.

Posted by palehorse (here)
It is pretty much the same pattern with everything that grows and grab attention from the top, it end up with filth agents infiltrated and in no time it ether abide to weird rules or cease to exist. Going small one can't go wrong. I gave up large communities, I don't trust it.

...

My guts says if you really want to get it right, the key is not to have any leadership, just a blueprint of howtos, then anyone can follow and establish on their own.. it is also important to have some sort of council to meet often and discuss ideas for the blueprint, after all it can always be improved and also it should have no MONEY involved in any way shape or form.

Like old saying: you want to do it, it has to be out of your heart!

Hiyah, palehorse. I agree with the idea of not having any leaders... Ironically, I think there will always be a requirement for GOOD leaders... because when you're dealing with populations of people, if a good leader doesn't step in to lead them, a bad one will. Always. People, in general, WANT leaders and are easily steered because of it, unfortunately. It's unfortunate for them, and it's unfortunate for those of us who do not want to be swept up in societal chaos (that's why we try to escape society, we aren't stupid [the globalists are onto us which is why they're trying to force us back into urban centers]). Good luck having good leaders in this cut-throat world. They are RARE.

Blueprint of how-tos? (Who decides who's in the council? Also, why stick to one blueprint?) What about freedom to make one's own decisions on everything, it really comes down to that. It's about completely taking responsibility for one's own existence, one's own actions. I do agree about the money thing. Money (plus barter plus trade, influence) = corruption.

[Pris]

.

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
Here's a variation on that theme that I have found to be extremely effective for fruit flies:

Instead of a vinegar or soapy water pool of death, put a small piece of tomato or strawberry scraps in the glass. Just as shaberon suggests, cover the jar with plastic wrap stretched over the glass secured with a rubber band and poke a dozen holes with a toothpick. Like junkies to heroin, all the fruit flies within the room will be drawn to the smell and will squeeze through the holes in the plastic. You now have the choice to take the glass outdoors and release the fruit flies. (I may be ignorant) but I don't remember reading that fruit flies are a disease vector, just an annoyance, and so capitol punishment may be literally overkill.

[palehorse]

Posted by Pris (here)
.

Posted by palehorse (here)
Hi Pris, from my own experience not once living in intentional community I can say that everything that I came in contact or knew from others failed, when it grows at certain point it fails, even anarchist communities end up with leaders lol

...

I would really love to see something different that works, but so far based on my own experience that is pretty much what I know works currently, but not everyone has the mindset to pursue it, when talk about communities nowadays people think of wonders and nobody has to work, full service sort of thing lol maybe I am from another planet, I can't understand modern life.

Posted by palehorse (here)
It is pretty much the same pattern with everything that grows and grab attention from the top, it end up with filth agents infiltrated and in no time it ether abide to weird rules or cease to exist. Going small one can't go wrong. I gave up large communities, I don't trust it.

...

My guts says if you really want to get it right, the key is not to have any leadership, just a blueprint of howtos, then anyone can follow and establish on their own.. it is also important to have some sort of council to meet often and discuss ideas for the blueprint, after all it can always be improved and also it should have no MONEY involved in any way shape or form.

Like old saying: you want to do it, it has to be out of your heart!

Hiyah, palehorse. I agree with the idea of not having any leaders... Ironically, I think there will always be a requirement for GOOD leaders... because when you're dealing with populations of people, if a good leader doesn't step in to lead them, a bad one will. Always. People, in general, WANT leaders and are easily steered because of it, unfortunately. It's unfortunate for them, and it's unfortunate for those of us who do not want to be swept up in societal chaos (that's why we try to escape society, we aren't stupid [the globalists are onto us which is why they're trying to force us back into urban centers]). Good luck having good leaders in this cut-throat world. They are RARE.

Blueprint of how-tos? (Who decides who's in the council? Also, why stick to one blueprint?) What about freedom to make one's own decisions on everything, it really comes down to that. It's about completely taking responsibility for one's own existence, one's own actions. I do agree about the money thing. Money (plus barter plus trade, influence) = corruption.

Hi Pris

What you wrote is true, no questions at all about, but the whole point is to fight back, isn't it? well not literally with our fists or guns or whatever, but rather creating new models to replace this old decaying stinking current system.

The blueprint I referred is something practical teaching people how to do stuffs, one have to start organizing from somewhere, think for the next generations surviving this whole crazy world (if they do), there will be many question how to do this and that and so on, these blueprints will work also as some sort of field guide.. some people uses the bible for that, but in my experience it is not practical.

The council I mean, will be necessary to the ones involved to get together and talk from time to time, like meetings, everyone in the community must be part of this council also each cell would have their own council, we are talking about small group of people, each cell could grow to its limit and split then. It is like having too many people in one house, at some point you need a second house.
The blueprint would not be only 1, I mean there will be many many howtos and it is best if compiled into 1 large blueprint to keep things organized, also it is nothing written in stone, it must be flexible, for example tested things that didn't work must be carefully documented and update or removed from the blueprint, so there will be many versions of it

In your last sentence, of course people can make their own decisions and they should, but at some point when one don't agree with anything and know they can do it all alone, then in my honest opinion, this individual should go on his own path and do it the best he can, but we already know nobody can do anything all alone, it is like to become a hermit in a cave, totally possible no questions about that either, when you say taking responsibility to their own existence, that is the whole point here, the blueprint is completely decentralized.. enforcing consciously some sort of economy of surplus we already are half way into it, give more than take idea, planting your own community gardens, having your own water system, shelters, communications and forth and so on, perhaps won't be perfect but sure will be functional, corruption can't exist in such environment.. the major question to deal with would be ownership of the land, taxing and legal stuffs, we discussed a lot about it on the thread "starve the beast".


I meant in terms of collectivism consensus of the conscious beings involved (the community decide not the individual). In such model should not exist any sort of party movement, because that means more division and we mind like people want to be united and not divided.

Think more in terms of mycelium spreading, nobody can't destroy it because it is always there, unless blow up the entire planet and even that may not stop it from traveling in space and land in some other planet, there is no queens or kings as the leaders it just spread and sprout out like a common natural conscious network that always existed (unlike bees or ants). Humans are conditioned to act the way they act.

The most of humankind are certainly leading the opposite direction but a tiny few are already pointed in that direction and that is pretty much more than we need, not everyone will understand it, those who gave up understanding our world they are "happy" on their own way, we can't change that, it is like trying to wake someone up, but they won't listen, they live in a constant moment of denial of nature around them, except for the rare moments of reality ripples. As you pointed out they need a leader to guide their way, so be it.

Transcend our culture will be something extremely necessary, we started doing it through subversive art, but see where we are now, most people see it as entertainment (the trend is: if doesn't fit official narrative, then it is a conspiracy theory) or they don't see at all because of the so many mechanism of information control governments created around the world (fact check for example), unless the general public be shocked and I mean really shocked with something enormous it won't ever happen, things will just spin out of control and certainly collapse at some point.

The key is to find the others, and then we will know what to do. Isn't what we are doing here today? I have faith we are getting there and there is no need to every single human being to be onboard and in fact they won't.

quoting Avalon round table
"We will do everything we can to work towards the establishment of a new way of living together on Planet Earth."

What I wrote are ideas based on my experience and what seems to make sense to me, I am open mind to discuss it all at any moment, we are here for that

[shaberon]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
Instead of a vinegar or soapy water pool of death, put a small piece of tomato or strawberry scraps in the glass. Just as shaberon suggests, cover the jar with plastic wrap stretched over the glass secured with a rubber band and poke a dozen holes with a toothpick. Like junkies to heroin, all the fruit flies within the room will be drawn to the smell and will squeeze through the holes in the plastic. You now have the choice to take the glass outdoors and release the fruit flies. (I may be ignorant) but I don't remember reading that fruit flies are a disease vector, just an annoyance, and so capitol punishment may be literally overkill.

True, it only takes some kind of bait to draw them in--and then it is time-dependent, because, without bait, they are too dumb to find their way back out through the holes.

They will live on a tomato slice, or die from lack of nourishment, but are basically trapped until you decide what to do with them.

At the most benign, any insect gets fungus and bacteria stuck to its feet, and moves it to the place of the next visit. Even roaches would be fairly clean and harmless if they only went around clean areas.

Also, regarding las cucarachas, I think diatomaceous earth (DE) kills because of physical sharpness of the diatoms, and boric acid powder kills by dessication.

It is basically the same. DE goes between the chitin joints and slices up the waxy coating of the insect's surface, and, rather than bleeding or dying from injuries, they just dry out.

Acids and other means absorb moisture directly, whereas DE diffuses it into the atmosphere.

But again, dual-purpose, food grade DE is a good de-wormer for humans and animals, along with the herb, Wormwood.



Along those same lines, the best "natural" treatment for our bodies is in the pH.

When set to the wrong level, a plant will show pH imbalances within a few days, animals within a couple months, and humans will parade a lifetime of sickness without ever knowing why.

Most acid reflux indigestion is not from "too much" acid, but, rather, too little, which makes the stomach do excessive mechanical grinding, which forces some available acid into the esophagus.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, one can be mainly "de-acidified" by ingesting acids, such as mustard, tomatoes, or lemon juice.

If not, you are going to get osteoperosis, because the body will leach the missing minerals from your bones.

The "wrong" ph will heavily favor the growth of unfriendly bacteria as well.

Instead, one feels sick and resorts to anti-biotics, which of course harms the gut flora, which needs to be maintained at the proper pH in the first place.

Or, in the example of cheap chicken, you will simply ingest new, mutated bacteria that are drug resistant, and then no normal means can help you.

I would say it is totally psycho to promote agriculture and diet that ruin these conditions, and respond with a fake medical science that can't fix it, because neither of them can face free and easy facts that would render large parts of the industry meaningless.

I, personally, think there is great value in community and leadership, and the ability to produce food and goods to excess. However it becomes a total problem when reduced to mechanics and the "world of words", and we wind up with artificial experts who can't really do anything besides tell you what to do, which is usually backwards. True leadership comes from the position of wisdom and experience. There definitely is such a thing. Scrambling the language and dis-uniting us from the way nature works must surely be the opposite.


Sadly, I think we only have mechanisms in place to draw you back to dependency on urban centers with raised prices and taxes, which is just an abstract with the intention to continuously raise these.

Despite all this time spent looking for a way to maybe at least halfway work around this, I am still empty-handed.

Unless I figure it out, my destiny is almost certainly "Virginia commune" with incompetents. We may just all perish miserably, as history seems to indicate. With the right personnel and location, it could possibly work out, but of course I have no say in anything, since even now money is more important than wisdom and experience.

That means I am unaware of any success of a "counter-cultural movement", even such as organics, which should not be counter-culture to begin with.

In fact, what I have come to react to at a visceral level of disgust is Thanksgiving and the Pilgrims. Santa Claus or St. Nicholas can be found having origins as distribution of wealth to the poor, and even the "birthday of Jesus" can be reverse-engineered to at least find something about the Winter Solstice. Independence Day is an obvious farce unless you claw your eyes out. But Thanksgiving?

Pilgrims are the crowd of Oliver Cromwell, and, later, the main trans-Atlantic fascist group which named itself accordingly. This is a stupid disguise from looking so plain, ordinary, and innocent, but is the main force behind that which plagues us in the modern world. What killed farming and brought disease. Pilgrims.

And this is supposed to be some kind of honorary national symbol and holiday?

I wish it would fall stone dead.

Then I could clean the remains out of my mind. But not while it keeps popping up and interrupting, as it keeps doing, like a broken record.

Without the strange boosts of Thanksgiving and Christmas, many businesses would not make it, which should be the first sign that something is wrong here. If viable, it should hold value throughout the year with no worries. But there are not many exceptions.

I quit recognizing their existence so long ago that no thoughts of sympathy will ever recur to me.

When you cast off these shackles and blinders, you do not miss them! You do not need them.

[Pris]

.

Posted by palehorse (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
.
Hiyah, palehorse. I agree with the idea of not having any leaders... Ironically, I think there will always be a requirement for GOOD leaders... because when you're dealing with populations of people, if a good leader doesn't step in to lead them, a bad one will. Always. People, in general, WANT leaders and are easily steered because of it, unfortunately. It's unfortunate for them, and it's unfortunate for those of us who do not want to be swept up in societal chaos (that's why we try to escape society, we aren't stupid [the globalists are onto us which is why they're trying to force us back into urban centers]). Good luck having good leaders in this cut-throat world. They are RARE.

Blueprint of how-tos? (Who decides who's in the council? Also, why stick to one blueprint?) What about freedom to make one's own decisions on everything, it really comes down to that. It's about completely taking responsibility for one's own existence, one's own actions. I do agree about the money thing. Money (plus barter plus trade, influence) = corruption.

Hi Pris

What you wrote is true, no questions at all about, but the whole point is to fight back, isn't it? well not literally with our fists or guns or whatever, but rather creating new models to replace this old decaying stinking current system.

The blueprint I referred is something practical teaching people how to do stuffs, one have to start organizing from somewhere, think for the next generations surviving this whole crazy world (if they do), there will be many question how to do this and that and so on, these blueprints will work also as some sort of field guide.. some people uses the bible for that, but in my experience it is not practical.

The council I mean, will be necessary to the ones involved to get together and talk from time to time, like meetings, everyone in the community must be part of this council also each cell would have their own council, we are talking about small group of people, each cell could grow to its limit and split then. It is like having too many people in one house, at some point you need a second house.
The blueprint would not be only 1, I mean there will be many many howtos and it is best if compiled into 1 large blueprint to keep things organized, also it is nothing written in stone, it must be flexible, for example tested things that didn't work must be carefully documented and update or removed from the blueprint, so there will be many versions of it

In your last sentence, of course people can make their own decisions and they should, but at some point when one don't agree with anything and know they can do it all alone, then in my honest opinion, this individual should go on his own path and do it the best he can, but we already know nobody can do anything all alone, it is like to become a hermit in a cave, totally possible no questions about that either, when you say taking responsibility to their own existence, that is the whole point here, the blueprint is completely decentralized.. enforcing consciously some sort of economy of surplus we already are half way into it, give more than take idea, planting your own community gardens, having your own water system, shelters, communications and forth and so on, perhaps won't be perfect but sure will be functional, corruption can't exist in such environment.. the major question to deal with would be ownership of the land, taxing and legal stuffs, we discussed a lot about it on the thread "starve the beast".


I meant in terms of collectivism consensus of the conscious beings involved (the community decide not the individual). In such model should not exist any sort of party movement, because that means more division and we mind like people want to be united and not divided.

...

The key is to find the others, and then we will know what to do. Isn't what we are doing here today? I have faith we are getting there and there is no need to every single human being to be onboard and in fact they won't.

quoting Avalon round table
"We will do everything we can to work towards the establishment of a new way of living together on Planet Earth."

What I wrote are ideas based on my experience and what seems to make sense to me, I am open mind to discuss it all at any moment, we are here for that

Thanks, appreciate your thoughts! This is getting tricky to answer lol. As soon as things start to get complicated... my flags go up. It shouldn't have to be complicated.

It's funny, on one hand you say that the individual -- that NOBODY -- can do it all on their own. But, then you say a person could be a hermit and live in a cave, totally possible. That's a contradiction. Personally, I don't see any problem with a person (or a couple of people, or a handful of people, a closed system) living entirely on their own... other than the fact that other people will always attempt to prevent that from happening (to harm, to exploit). That's where American's like having their 2nd Amendment, and I can see why.

We're in agreement with the need to fight back. I think where we seem to diverge is where the collective versus the individual. Your "collectivism consensus" versus my "leave me alone", basically. I can picture a bunch of people all wanting to be left alone living in a very decentralized manner and the thing they all agree on is wanting to be left alone. So, they all fight together (when necessary) for each other's right to be left alone. For those who want to work together, share etc, that would be determined on an individual basis. Nobody consents to anything. The word "consent" makes my skin crawl. It's the same with the word "collectivism"... I get flashes of Star Trek Borg cubes. This "collectivism" with pre-approved "blueprints" -- where you are only permitted to build your ship in the shape of a cube or in the shape of a sphere because all other shapes were deemed inefficient by the collective and removed as options.

Once, I imagined how a "volunteer-based" society might be a great way to go (Ubuntu), but I watched as it just couldn't stand a chance against malevolent people who don't want to leave other people alone doing beneficial things for one another. Then, there's always the problem with lack of privacy. Privacy for the individual is fundamentally important for those of us who WANT privacy. For example, community gardens are nice but private gardens are nice, too. Some people like to own their own stuff. Boundaries. Walls. Protection. We all have our own boundaries. Some people don't want to share anything, others feel comfortable sharing certain things but not other things. All these boundaries need to be respected.

Another time, I could imagine living in the fantastic world of Jacque Fresco. But, now I have serious questions about what it means to be "resource-based" (the Earth is so much more than just a "resource"... how is it okay to exploit it simply for its resources)... and there seemed to be a serious lack of spirituality in all of it. Also, the technology... just how hackable would it be, just how easy would it be to subvert such a technological society to work against its inhabitants (we're already facing that today)? Again, what happened to privacy? Anyway, the more complicated any system gets, the more dependent individuals become to that system (and to each other) and the easier it is to break that system, for bad actors to work their way in and for corruption to take hold. Too many hands in the pot...

[palehorse]

Hi again Pris, yes it should not be complicated, not at all, but there are odds everywhere and nothing is perfect, then we have to deal with that, but of course it shouldn't get too complex or it won't make sense.

It is a contradiction but 2 different approaches, unless one live in a tent in the forest yes it can be done alone, but at the moment "systems" are introduced, complexity increase, I see it as natural and logical, more things into the system more people you need to maintain it, in the case of a hermit, there is no such a thing, it is as much primitive as it can get and nature will provide mindset, so it is also possible, both ways are extremely hard to do all alone and not for everyone, this whole thing is an ocean of possibilities. In one end you have the hermit living by nature and in the other end you have a small community system. I see it as logical from one end to another the complexity grows so more people are necessary. Maybe something in the middle would be ideal..

"collectivism consensus" versus my "leave me alone" are two different approaches to the problem and I see both has their pros and cons, when I say collectivism consensus I just mean that people living together should agree on doing things otherwise it falls into your leave me alone model, I am not saying it is wrong or right (I don't believe in anything like that), it is only different ways to tackle a problem

I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.. I think I should had said that before to avoid misunderstands, I never thought on those models of Jacques Fresco or Star Wars, these stuffs are too much for my head to be frank. What I am trying to say goes more in line with anarchism than anything else (having basic rules not rulers), I am very often into Thai rural villages and I see the way they handle things there, some are very low-tech others are no-tech and completely off the grid, no public utilities, in some cases not even road access, and I am not talking about hill tribes that nowadays are tourist attraction, I am talking about the common country men. As you mentioned earlier, they are trying to push all these people to the cities, it is true I had seen myself, most young people left to larger centers to get indoctrinated, what you see here is the old country men standing still on his property and resisting time and all the new country policies.

+10 to bring up Privacy issues, agreed you put that perfectly and I feel I have nothing to comment on that

In your last sentence I don't sympathize with high tech in anyway not sure if I ever did, I was a slave in the system like the majority (former programmer) and I left it all behind because I got serious issues with it, I paid a high ticket for that, went into lots of troubles to make that transition but I survived and here I am, trying to live as simple as possible, and looking into a way to have other like mind around and perhaps living close and helping each other in some ways, I don't see how bad it can be, but if it does, good sense must kick in literally.

thanks for keep posting Pris

[Pris]

.

Posted by palehorse (here)
Hi again Pris, yes it should not be complicated, not at all, but there are odds everywhere and nothing is perfect, then we have to deal with that, but of course it shouldn't get too complex or it won't make sense.

It is a contradiction but 2 different approaches, unless one live in a tent in the forest yes it can be done alone, but at the moment "systems" are introduced, complexity increase, I see it as natural and logical, more things into the system more people you need to maintain it, in the case of a hermit, there is no such a thing, it is as much primitive as it can get and nature will provide mindset, so it is also possible, both ways are extremely hard to do all alone and not for everyone, this whole thing is an ocean of possibilities. In one end you have the hermit living by nature and in the other end you have a small community system. I see it as logical from one end to another the complexity grows so more people are necessary. Maybe something in the middle would be ideal..

"collectivism consensus" versus my "leave me alone" are two different approaches to the problem and I see both has their pros and cons, when I say collectivism consensus I just mean that people living together should agree on doing things otherwise it falls into your leave me alone model, I am not saying it is wrong or right (I don't believe in anything like that), it is only different ways to tackle a problem

I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.. I think I should had said that before to avoid misunderstands, I never thought on those models of Jacques Fresco or Star Wars, these stuffs are too much for my head to be frank. What I am trying to say goes more in line with anarchism than anything else (having basic rules not rulers), I am very often into Thai rural villages and I see the way they handle things there, some are very low-tech others are no-tech and completely off the grid, no public utilities, in some cases not even road access, and I am not talking about hill tribes that nowadays are tourist attraction, I am talking about the common country men. As you mentioned earlier, they are trying to push all these people to the cities, it is true I had seen myself, most young people left to larger centers to get indoctrinated, what you see here is the old country men standing still on his property and resisting time and all the new country policies.

+10 to bring up Privacy issues, agreed you put that perfectly and I feel I have nothing to comment on that

In your last sentence I don't sympathize with high tech in anyway not sure if I ever did, I was a slave in the system like the majority (former programmer) and I left it all behind because I got serious issues with it, I paid a high ticket for that, went into lots of troubles to make that transition but I survived and here I am, trying to live as simple as possible, and looking into a way to have other like mind around and perhaps living close and helping each other in some ways, I don't see how bad it can be, but if it does, good sense must kick in literally.

thanks for keep posting Pris

You're welcome, palehorse! Same to you, thanks for the interesting exchange.

When it comes to the idea of "simplicity" and pure happiness in how one might live (alone or with someone else)... My utopian idea is living/surviving on a desert island in a nice, warm, tropical place, off the map with just enough banana and coconut trees lol. Now, that's about as simple as it gets (in tune with nature). What we lived through (specifically 2020-2021) can make anyone want to find their own island and disappear, am I right?

I'm not a big fan of technology because it is almost always weaponized against us. It's too bad, too, because I've had a bit of fun with it... like being on this forum. On the other hand, it means I have less time to "whittle wood".

I totally get where you're coming from with the "blueprints" not necessarily meaning hi-tech. My Borg example wasn't meant to be taken literally (as hi-tech). Because, the same "blueprints" issues will happen with low-tech "solutions". For example, there could be blueprints/rules having to do with agriculture and/or landscaping. A community might decide that everyone must have a single apple tree in their front yard (for whatever reason), no exceptions. What if you're someone who doesn't want an apple tree, maybe you want an apricot tree? Maybe you want many trees. What if you're someone who wants flowers? Or, a rock garden? Or, maybe, you don't want a front yard at all and you want the entire thing paved over. I liken it to how stratas work... Are pets allowed etc. etc. What if you don't want to live near any neighbors (loud, obnoxious, or otherwise)? How tall can you build a fence and what material can it be built out of? It's generally a restrictive-and-resentment-building pain in the arse. Anyway, all I can think is there may be multiple types of small communities doing their own thing with their own rules... and a person gets to decide which one they'd prefer to live in (if they're even interested) should a space open up. Or, they start their own. Or, they avoid people altogether.

Anarchy, yes. Well armed. Limited rules (if you can agree on them lol) without rulers. Sovereign. No "overarching" rulers, no bullies, no dictators, no "authority".


If I could find a tribe like this one, I may consider joining:


Red Dwarf Theme Song

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zV0hwZwNQZc

Red Dwarf (Theme Song Lyrics)


It's cold outside, there's no kind of atmosphere,
I'm all alone, more or less.
Let me fly, far away from here,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.

I want to lie, shipwrecked and comatose,
Drinking fresh, mango juice,
Goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.

[shaberon]

Posted by palehorse (here)
I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.

I am going to try to mix this in with what I have to say today.

First of all, I am going to do this, as I scanned the overall "Living Things" sub-forum and what do you see. It is almost all stories, reports.

Something external, outside of ourselves, being subjectively fed in to us with communications technology.

There is almost nothing about actual projects where anyone is actually doing anything with any living things.

Once, I think it was here, was a pretty good saga of a horse-dragged farm in New Zealand. It was a great example! But otherwise, there is not much that is actually about anything, it is all third-hand reports. Strangely, that means there is nowhere that is exactly fitting for me to talk about things that happen.

I have agreed more than once that a sustainable future is probably more along the lines of hand tools and animals than batteries and robots.

That being said, I do not agree with the Maurice Strong type of idea to simply "turn off" oil, which I suppose is reflected in those ridiculous ideas to carbon tax us in 2030 or something like that. Witness Black Rock getting kicked out of several "Republican" states for even saying so.

It is a precarious position where Big Oil should not, of course, walk all over the environment, but, we cannot just throw away the machines and industries we already have. They are indeed useful and helpful as in the following anecdote.

In the same way as I constantly slag medical tyranny, it is mostly because Allopathic Medicine is supposed to treat acute symptoms, i. e. injuries, emergencies, and so on...that does not mean it should walk all over other medical schools, but, it does have a place.


Today I needed some things like a gas powered vehicle and some ultrasound equipment, not the most advanced technology in the world, but not a pile of sticks from the woods either.

Circularly, the reasons for needing them may be due to technology itself.

We already found out about this the hard way, and, it stems from naivete' or a misguided ignorance.

This is because we had gotten some goats as pets, and, we lost the Pygmy about exactly one year ago because of stones. Male goats have a complex, difficult urethra which makes them much more prone to stones than the females. And what aggravates this much worse is giving them human food.

So, you can understand the catch...it is a pet and you like to feed it/share something you have, and we did, and that is actually really bad for them.

I am not sure that I can emphasize that enough, because, it is really only in recent years that people like us have been attracted to keeping goats as pets. At least around here. As we found out, yes, a lot of them are raised, but, they literally are "meat goats". So they never live long enough for anyone to put much thought into health complications that arise as they go up in years.

Yes, they can eat almost anything without actually getting sick from it, but, on a habitual basis, most human food is going to overload them with minerals and additives that they simply cannot filter and excrete, and it forms stones.

Accordingly, the second, Nubian goat is much bigger, and he made it to some point earlier this year, when, having learned from the first, we had the stones in mind and got a field medic to come out and do the treatment.

At the time, we were told that meant a pretty good chance that he will have more.

So, I got up today, went out and saw him, came in and surfed a bit perhaps going to post something, and a few other things similar to a person's daily routine. But there is a method to anything I do, and part of that is, every single day of his life I have seen my baby at least twice, usually more. I am monitoring the situation, instead of just dropping off food and ignoring him like livestock, which is the best he could otherwise hope for.

So I went out the second time, and it was like the flip of a switch. Something was *wrong*. No time was lost informing the owner, and quickly came to the decision we would go to the state emergency vet.

I was informed that he passed a stone, so again, prompt reaction was crucial.

These are some of the dearest pets that you can have. Any of them that you pick up is most likely a rescue from a Halal dinner plate. But, they are extremely metabolically sensitive, you must understand this.

Once you have had a full life and can pass away somewhat calmly and peacefully, that is fine. Cutting a normal lifespan in half by something that is quite painful is what we will try to prevent, and so it is the cars, phones, and other modern equipment that has helped us here.

I hope that counts as "working with" nature, despite the use of artificial means to correct a likely self-induced problem from the wrong foodstuffs.

I know it means something to him, since he is so wonderfully friendly I know he appreciates having human attention. Our goat can nose kiss our cat! But that is just my influence rubbing off. Most people are averse to it. That shows me something like a root-level problem. I do not think many are well adjusted to nature or other people, and I just cannot estimate how bad that really is, or how or what part of the environment may react to them.

Right now it is like cutting off an addiction, since I cannot just walk out there, and I am not sure how long he is going to be kept for observation...but I am sure this was better than ignoring him overnight. My current beliefs require me to do things to make up for what happened to the Pygmy, and several similar things, or I will go straight to hell. Perhaps others do not feel this kind of compulsion. Otherwise they would not be so uptight about things that are generally comforting to mammals. I suppose they think they are a personality instead of an animal. Something like that is the true "artificial" which removes you from nature, and, I would say, leads to unpleasant fates.

[palehorse]

Posted by Pris (here)
...
You're welcome, palehorse! Same to you, thanks for the interesting exchange.

When it comes to the idea of "simplicity" and pure happiness in how one might live (alone or with someone else)... My utopian idea is living/surviving on a desert island in a nice, warm, tropical place, off the map with just enough banana and coconut trees lol. Now, that's about as simple as it gets (in tune with nature). What we lived through (specifically 2020-2021) can make anyone want to find their own island and disappear, am I right?


Absolutely, I know many in that situation.. but in the end even with the world falling in pieces around them, they still have hope or faith (I don't know what is that lol) to keep believing in salvation, the worse is, salvation from their government. anyway.



I'm not a big fan of technology because it is almost always weaponized against us. It's too bad, too, because I've had a bit of fun with it... like being on this forum. On the other hand, it means I have less time to "whittle wood".


If it was used correctly I would probably be working with that, but when you see that your work is nothing more than creating thing to be used against others for exploitation (think of marketing), that is it, you either turn a blind eye and keep going or you throw it away, that is what I did, but yet I still use low-tech to communicate with others and do things. I miss the internet when it was a cool place!!! Avalon is one of the last places we can enjoy it and meet amazing souls.



I totally get where you're coming from with the "blueprints" not necessarily meaning hi-tech. My Borg example wasn't meant to be taken literally (as hi-tech). Because, the same "blueprints" issues will happen with low-tech "solutions". For example, there could be blueprints/rules having to do with agriculture and/or landscaping. A community might decide that everyone must have a single apple tree in their front yard (for whatever reason), no exceptions. What if you're someone who doesn't want an apple tree, maybe you want an apricot tree? Maybe you want many trees. What if you're someone who wants flowers? Or, a rock garden? Or, maybe, you don't want a front yard at all and you want the entire thing paved over. I liken it to how stratas work... Are pets allowed etc. etc. What if you don't want to live near any neighbors (loud, obnoxious, or otherwise)? How tall can you build a fence and what material can it be built out of? It's generally a restrictive-and-resentment-building pain in the arse. Anyway, all I can think is there may be multiple types of small communities doing their own thing with their own rules... and a person gets to decide which one they'd prefer to live in (if they're even interested) should a space open up. Or, they start their own. Or, they avoid people altogether.


Yep, it is a bit trick, but the idea is just to provide a field guide for those interested in start on their own and don't know how to do it, lets say someone living in metropolis decided to pull the plug and pursue a more meaningful life in the country side or in an isolated coast or even in the mountains, people usually do their "homework" before get into these things, but it is never enough, the homework is just a little insight and it is not always practical. I mean if one want to plant long beans, it is necessary to know the soil, amount of water, save seed for next season, harvesting, prepare a meal with it, preserve the excess like in conserves or just dry and so on.. it seems simple but it is not really, takes lots of time and dedication and patience, I would say it is like art of doing it and see the results, in other words the whole process is beautiful now imagine if one decide to introduce animals, the effort just keep growing, people living on their own, usually are very busy, it all depends how many things one want to introduce in their own system.. I see it as grow as you can and able to do, no rush and no pressure, there is nothing to compete with.



Anarchy, yes. Well armed. Limited rules (if you can agree on them lol) without rulers. Sovereign. No "overarching" rulers, no bullies, no dictators, no "authority".



Yes, yes and yes


If I could find a tribe like this one, I may consider joining:


Red Dwarf Theme Song

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zV0hwZwNQZc

Red Dwarf (Theme Song Lyrics)


It's cold outside, there's no kind of atmosphere,
I'm all alone, more or less.
Let me fly, far away from here,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.

I want to lie, shipwrecked and comatose,
Drinking fresh, mango juice,
Goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.

ROFL, that is great, WTF is that dude washing the fuselage? I don't want that job

[palehorse]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by palehorse (here)
I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.

I am going to try to mix this in with what I have to say today.

First of all, I am going to do this, as I scanned the overall "Living Things" sub-forum and what do you see. It is almost all stories, reports.

Something external, outside of ourselves, being subjectively fed in to us with communications technology.

There is almost nothing about actual projects where anyone is actually doing anything with any living things.



There is Bill's thread "Mara return to the mountains" it is nice one, but most of it probably it is as you wrote, I understand the feeling.



Once, I think it was here, was a pretty good saga of a horse-dragged farm in New Zealand. It was a great example! But otherwise, there is not much that is actually about anything, it is all third-hand reports. Strangely, that means there is nowhere that is exactly fitting for me to talk about things that happen.

I have agreed more than once that a sustainable future is probably more along the lines of hand tools and animals than batteries and robots or as AGI


All sort of skills are necessary in order to be sustainable and it starts with each individual, but what we see today is the lack of it and everything moving so fast into digital everything. People have to get back to it despite of what the so many authorities dictate or promote in their propaganda, their vision of sustainable world is very different of the vision of a rancher, however the same word is used to define both. It is the same with large communities everywhere, once you start to read their plans and white papers backed on science of course or even join them, it all melt down to power and control in the hands of few, you are just another number in there, I never liked that idea of buying a piece of paradise haha


That being said, I do not agree with the Maurice Strong type of idea to simply "turn off" oil, which I suppose is reflected in those ridiculous ideas to carbon tax us in 2030 or something like that. Witness Black Rock getting kicked out of several "Republican" states for even saying so.

It is a precarious position where Big Oil should not, of course, walk all over the environment, but, we cannot just throw away the machines and industries we already have. They are indeed useful and helpful as in the following anecdote.

In the same way as I constantly slag medical tyranny, it is mostly because Allopathic Medicine is supposed to treat acute symptoms, i. e. injuries, emergencies, and so on...that does not mean it should walk all over other medical schools, but, it does have a place.


Today I needed some things like a gas powered vehicle and some ultrasound equipment, not the most advanced technology in the world, but not a pile of sticks from the woods either.


I totally got it, there is things that are very useful like diesel, generator, tractor, mechanical equipment of all sorts, tools, computers, radios, etc, etc..

It is hard topic to discuss specially the health topic which these globalists in power are responsible for so many deceases that was "introduced" into humankind, because after all it is business to keep people sick but alive and time enough to keep them in the loop to profit. Do we really need all these drugs? As a friend used to say, drugs are those synthetic things they create in labs, plants and animals provide cures for most common problems, the catch here is how you manipulate and combine them in order to fabricate a remedy to act upon certain malaise (it will be lost knowledge in a very close future), it was called alchemy before modern science replaced it. I was trying to imagine what it will be called after science is dead, because they have to keep pushing forward.



Circularly, the reasons for needing them may be due to technology itself.


it keep advancing does not matter what, but at the point we are living we see how exponentially fast it is going, who can follow it?



We already found out about this the hard way, and, it stems from naivete' or a misguided ignorance.

This is because we had gotten some goats as pets, and, we lost the Pygmy about exactly one year ago because of stones. Male goats have a complex, difficult urethra which makes them much more prone to stones than the females. And what aggravates this much worse is giving them human food.

So, you can understand the catch...it is a pet and you like to feed it/share something you have, and we did, and that is actually really bad for them.

I am not sure that I can emphasize that enough, because, it is really only in recent years that people like us have been attracted to keeping goats as pets. At least around here. As we found out, yes, a lot of them are raised, but, they literally are "meat goats". So they never live long enough for anyone to put much thought into health complications that arise as they go up in years.

Yes, they can eat almost anything without actually getting sick from it, but, on a habitual basis, most human food is going to overload them with minerals and additives that they simply cannot filter and excrete, and it forms stones.

Accordingly, the second, Nubian goat is much bigger, and he made it to some point earlier this year, when, having learned from the first, we had the stones in mind and got a field medic to come out and do the treatment.

At the time, we were told that meant a pretty good chance that he will have more.

So, I got up today, went out and saw him, came in and surfed a bit perhaps going to post something, and a few other things similar to a person's daily routine. But there is a method to anything I do, and part of that is, every single day of his life I have seen my baby at least twice, usually more. I am monitoring the situation, instead of just dropping off food and ignoring him like livestock, which is the best he could otherwise hope for.

So I went out the second time, and it was like the flip of a switch. Something was *wrong*. No time was lost informing the owner, and quickly came to the decision we would go to the state emergency vet.

I was informed that he passed a stone, so again, prompt reaction was crucial.

These are some of the dearest pets that you can have. Any of them that you pick up is most likely a rescue from a Halal dinner plate. But, they are extremely metabolically sensitive, you must understand this.

Once you have had a full life and can pass away somewhat calmly and peacefully, that is fine. Cutting a normal lifespan in half by something that is quite painful is what we will try to prevent, and so it is the cars, phones, and other modern equipment that has helped us here.

I hope that counts as "working with" nature, despite the use of artificial means to correct a likely self-induced problem from the wrong foodstuffs.

I know it means something to him, since he is so wonderfully friendly I know he appreciates having human attention. Our goat can nose kiss our cat! But that is just my influence rubbing off. Most people are averse to it. That shows me something like a root-level problem. I do not think many are well adjusted to nature or other people, and I just cannot estimate how bad that really is, or how or what part of the environment may react to them.

Right now it is like cutting off an addiction, since I cannot just walk out there, and I am not sure how long he is going to be kept for observation...but I am sure this was better than ignoring him overnight. My current beliefs require me to do things to make up for what happened to the Pygmy, and several similar things, or I will go straight to hell. Perhaps others do not feel this kind of compulsion. Otherwise they would not be so uptight about things that are generally comforting to mammals. I suppose they think they are a personality instead of an animal. Something like that is the true "artificial" which removes you from nature, and, I would say, leads to unpleasant fates.

I am sorry to hear that, I hope you can find the way around, it really seems the food is the problem. My auntie used to allow them to go into other fields to eat the grass, they also eat leaves with small branches from some trees not all trees works, be careful with even the supplements they sell elsewhere, it is usually very low grade in nutrients, to be frank it is high heated food scraps, high sodium, protein from melted bones/cartilages just like gelatine for humans but in dried form, they make the so called pellets, the same goes for dogs, cats, rabbits, any pet. Big market and crap nutrients.. see how many fat cats on internet, someone I know here her cat has diabetes, go figure.. I never knew cats could have it, but apparently it is true, she used to give what they call here desert for cats, high sugars and God knows what else inside.

If you have a field with hay, they love it, or just grass with bushes, they are supped to eat only that.

[Pris]

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Posted by shaberon (here)
Once you have had a full life and can pass away somewhat calmly and peacefully, that is fine. Cutting a normal lifespan in half by something that is quite painful is what we will try to prevent, and so it is the cars, phones, and other modern equipment that has helped us here..

Landline phones, yes.

[Pris]

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Posted by palehorse (here)
I am sorry to hear that, I hope you can find the way around, it really seems the food is the problem. My auntie used to allow them to go into other fields to eat the grass, they also eat leaves with small branches from some trees not all trees works, be careful with even the supplements they sell elsewhere, it is usually very low grade in nutrients, to be frank it is high heated food scraps, high sodium, protein from melted bones/cartilages just like gelatine for humans but in dried form, they make the so called pellets, the same goes for dogs, cats, rabbits, any pet. Big market and crap nutrients.. see how many fat cats on internet, someone I know here her cat has diabetes, go figure.. I never knew cats could have it, but apparently it is true, she used to give what they call here desert for cats, high sugars and God knows what else inside.

If you have a field with hay, they love it, or just grass with bushes, they are supped to eat only that.

Palehorse, in your response to shaberon (help for goats, pets)... I might add something here (for shaberon). My research into food, water -- what makes things healthy/unhealthy, I've learned that the purer the food and water the better.

Raw food (for humans -- fruit, veggies, seeds, nuts...) and pure water (e.g. rainwater/precipitation, distilled water/machine distilled water). Pure water that is unencumbered by inorganic minerals helps to remove the inorganic minerals that can build up in the body (e.g. kidney stones, arthritis, accelerated aging etc). I would guess this applies to all living things. My diet isn't perfect lol, but I try to eat lots of raw food everyday. And, I try to drink up to a gallon per day of pure water. When I cook I don't fry, only bake or boil. Except for condiments, I don't add salt or sugar. For oil I only use olive oil and coconut oil, and I avoid processed foods. I make my own sourdough rye bread and vegan yogurt. Generally, I avoid taking vitamin and mineral supplements (very rarely) because I don't trust them (inorganic minerals). That's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what I do to "stay healthy" but that's a good intro.

Although I've not ever had a goat, I've had guinea pig pets most of my life. There's nothing they love more than a handful of grass and dandelions. Main diet included alfalfa and Timothy hay plus piggy pellets and water (distilled starting from 2012 when I learned about it). Also included were raw veggies like leaf lettuce, carrot, celery, cucumber, and a wee bit of fruit like orange, banana, apple.