Closing the Avalon accounts of two long standing members

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Cristian (here)
Bill,
...
For once admit your pain…and forgive somebody else’s.

That part is for Bill to understand, however and whenever he might choose to.

He did not tolerate the rest of the moderation team choosing to make this public in order to expose his personal feelings, nor in order to harm others. Bill is not that sort of person. Not at all.

[Heartsong]

Please close this thread. People can't help but project their feelings and experiences into this very personal and unique situation and the hurt is extending into the larger Avalon Family.

[Mike]

Posted by Cristian (here)
Bill,

It was a relationship.

Thinking of the situation outside the relationship is maybe a waste of time.

That’s why entities are so interesting …understand the past and why.

Why a demonic entity chooses to possess some people? Why? It was a long chain of events that lead to that . Understand the events. The cause.

Why.

One can’t just post on a forum …Christine did this or that…

Why?

Admit she was hurt by you. Admit she was in pain . Admit you understood the energy inside her and the fact that at some point you disregard that. Admit the pain inflicted even if it was not intentional .
Understand the pain.

Nothing is simple ; nothing ‘’ just happens “. There is a cause in everything.

Admit it .

Why…You must know why...you must understand .

For once admit your pain…and forgive somebody else’s.

Your detachment from reality is staggering.

What does anyone's pain have to do with the theft of $60,000?

Forgiveness? How about we talk about that AFTER she returns the $, eh?

Christian, $60,000.

Repeat: $60,000.

It's my sincere hope that i'm now dreaming, and that I will soon awaken to a world of sanity and reason...

$60,000....$60,000....$60,000.....


ive got nothing left to say here. Ive been left speechless.

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by Jeffrey (here)
I have never really twisted her arm about it, and I'm not going to.

...

This isn't about philosophy, this is about character and day-to-day life.

... Its about character. ...

Yes, it is about character, and integrity. ("Integrity is the world's scarcest commodity" - Wade Frazier)

Did you make restitution for your burglary, Jeff? You stole "stuff" and that stuff had value. Did you ever repay them? Even if they said you didn't have to repay them, did you? If you say, "no", then who are you to mention "character", since that would mean you do not have the foundational integrity to exhibit "character." I'm not asking if THEY forgave you or exonerated you (that would be THEIR character, THEIR integrity, not yours) - I'm asking if you had the personal integrity to repay them the full value of the "stuff" you stole.

You've heard of "situational ethics", no doubt. Like when your friend embezzles money donated to a cause, or when your friend "C" steals $60K from your other friend "B", you don't sing "la la la la la" and pretend it didn't happen, right? You wouldn't just recite some New Age pseudobabble, providing an excuse for friend "C", thus aiding and abetting in the theft, would you? You wouldn't pretend that your friend "C" has integrity, or character, or compassion, would you?

"I have never really twisted her arm about it, and I'm not going to." Why phrase it using a reference to torture, Jeff? A good man, a good friend wouldn't consider torture, but they also wouldn't be so cowardly as to be silent about it. I see you've ended your silence now, and rather than remaining silent you have now spoken out - only it wasn't in defense of the truth, or what is right, or your friend that was ripped off - you chose to end your silence on the matter to defend theft, defend deception, and defend the thief, using deflective manipulation whitewashed with disingenuous 'love and light' claptrap.

Well, I did ask her, Jeff. I conversed with her in a series of emails. I asked her to explain, because like everyone else that got taken-in by her charmingly rambling, poetic, enigmatic, New-Agey, Universal "Love and Light" buzzword mishmash, I figured there MUST be some real explanation, some real reason. (Not for the break-up - that is none of my business - but I asked for her side of the story of why she opened a safe, removed Bill's gold coins, closed the safe, and left the country - only confessing it to an unsuspecting Bill months later.) Her emails back to me were increasingly guarded and terse, but she did tell me that she took Bill's gold because - since they HAD been married - she considered all of Bill's worldly possessions as hers. If she had integrity but was confused about joint ownership of property, then of course she wouldn't mind it if Bill keeps her half of the Ecuador property, right? Right??? Somehow, I think she locked-in on the phrase, "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine", and I don't expect a notarized letter assigning her half of the Ecuador property to Bill to show up anytime soon.

Why did I step-in, Jeff? Why did I try to get Christine's side of the story? Why did I offer to mediate? Why did I ask her - months ago - to return Bill's gold? Isn't that what a real friend does? You think Bill didn't try, privately, for many many months, to get his stolen property back? Christine KNEW this was going to go public if she didn't make full restitution - it was brought up in the conversation between me and her. She DECIDED not to work it out privately, knowing it was going to expose her true character. She evidently doesn't care, and knows that she's got a number of people - like you, Jeff - spellbound with poetic Universal lovey-dovey aphorisms and verbal declarations of her somehow being the victim, that will leap to her rescue. Well, guess what - that's not friendship. Not to either the thief or the victim. The victim already has a scar on his back from a knife. You really want to stick another one in, and pretend to be friends?

When the Avalon mods and admins had created a document (the document alone took weeks, and many many revisions), we felt we should show it to Bill before we posted it. As was stated, Bill asked us not to mention the personal theft. We tried revising the document to exclude it, but the document HAD to achieve a higher purpose - that of warning MILABS and other trauma victims about the deception of someone (even if they mean well) declaring themselves a "Healer" and Avalon appearing to sanction, by the "Healer's" association with Avalon, that these trauma victims are in good hands, safe hands, skilled hands. We felt it was - and is - critical to expose the character behind the mask.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Heartsong (here)
Please close this thread. People can't help but project their feelings and experiences into this very personal and unique situation and the hurt is extending into the larger Avalon Family.

As myself and others have said above, the purpose of this thread is not to post the details of a personal situation.

However, as usual, the personal self, the community, and the personal of others, is entangled. Such is life.

In my view, the purpose of this thread, to provide one more little marker on the rugged trail that victims of system abuse travel, remains important.

[transiten]

Posted by Jeffrey (here)
I talk to Christine on a near-daily basis, and let me assure you, she is doing great.

She has a lot of projects going on right now and is connecting with all kinds of new people. Many new doors have opened for her!

Claudia is burgeoning and in the pink as well. Both ladies are good friends of mine and will remain as such ... I love them!

You who else I love and still talk to occasionally, Chelley (9eagle9)! She is doing great too. She's writing a new book and being kept pretty busy by life's daily chores. She too is an amazing woman.

They've all long since moved on from this forum. Account or no account.

I'll leave y'all with this . . .

I am the whore, I am the virgin.

I am the victim, and I am the executioner.

I am the first breath, and I am the last.

I am the light in your eye, the hatred in your heart.

Your pain, your joy -- all me.

Love stems from my garden, and decay comes from my will alone.

This entire universe is nothing but I.

And I am you. I am all and thou art that.

My only hope is that you aren't as hard on yourself as you are on me.

That you show yourself the same kindness as you'd freely give another.

To love is a choice. To condemn and shame is a choice.

There is only you in this world. Choose wisely.

We are together forever.

Peace,

Vivek

OK After reading this I'm absolutely certain Bill and the Mods have got all the horses in the stable. I have not had any interaction with Christine that I remember but I can - from having had extremely painful manipulating relationship experiences including a therapist trying to seduce me as I searched for help and brainwashing by a meditation guru having a psychosis after breaking up- sense that 9eagle9 is a mentally bullying and abusive person.

I also had this confirmed on another forum from a Swiss psychologist who also had run into her and she thanked me for having stood up for persons 9eagle9 had been harassing. She once asked me to look at her astrological transits and I mentioned some stressful aspects in a very balanced way and she didn't even thank me.

[Debra]

My support goes out to you all on the mod team, from my perspective you are all profound thinkers with admirable skills in handling the human dynamics that daily surge through this forum.

Paul, your opening post moved me and reinforced the seriousness of this issue, the core of it and the fine detail I am not privy to but I trust that something mighty deep has ripped through.

My sense of Paul over the years has been of someone who is considerate, impeccably so and not one to make idle, uninformed comments. Ever. He's a stand up guy from my understanding who values standards and ethics. I still value to this day when he dealt personally with me over a few questions I had in my early weeks on the forum about the ridiculous rifts between profile people that tears the alternative media apart and weakens it. And why these people can't just get together and responsibly process it, I asked. So unhealthy. So much holding onto. Kind of reminds of what we are going through again.

I say all this objectively and from my own subjective space because I do not walk in anyone's shoes but my own. I am loudly human. Still trying to work out my own way of how I relate.

What has happened is not my business but the issues are not light. I am calling it for what it is too, just like Mike. In all ways you look it, What has gone down is immoral. I have only ever admired the contributions on this forum that Christine has made (Karelia too) though I never had any meaningful contact with them personally as others have had. But clearly (as I trust in what Paul has laid out) a sad but quite disturbing turn of events has occurred on the way to the forum, and Bill has been on some wild ride.

Dear Bill, I have grown to enjoy your more easy going nature on here. I loved that you took Hughie up to the Avalon Cairn with Mara. I lost him recently and it still moves me that part of the little fella made it to a mountain top in Ecquador, thanks to you I will gladly hold that forever.

What's between you and Christine, Bill, is big one but I am with you on holding firm . Absolutely. We cannot bury what's still unfinished. I get it. It's cleaner to process it with courage and grace and move through it. Name it and bring it forth so it can be eventually healed.

I'll say no more but send out a massive hug and love to you and of course to the Mod squad and to all the amazing people who pop their energies into this thread ...

[tessfreq]

I see this as very personal to many involved in this situation.
Personal to Bill
Personal to the members who donated money to support Bill’s work
Personal to the milabs who come here for support and information, and not to be used for some other persons personal experiments/agenda’s, even if it’s wrapped in love and light.
Personal to all the members who care about this amazing forum and are grateful to Bill for creating it.
Many are involved.

I commend the mods for determining that this needed to be public, for taking the time it took to make their decisions, and having the courage to be honest and open about the situation even with the unknown of how Avalon will react (has reacted) to this very difficult conversation.

I continue to be impressed with the integrity of Project Avalon.
Many thank you’s from the heart.

[RunningDeer]

Posted by Heartsong (here)
Please close this thread. People can't help but project their feelings and experiences into this very personal and unique situation and the hurt is extending into the larger Avalon Family.

My wish is to close the thread but that’s because the tolerance to pain and suffering is low. Another part of me understands that we all process in different ways and tempos.

My biggest concern is not for the material lost (sorry Bill), but for the people that entrust another without the proper tools. And I don’t mean what one senses, feels and sees. Not when it comes to Milabs. There’s too many contradictions in behavior for me not to question who’s in the driver’s seat.

RunningDeer

[Carmody]

Once, I had a person use my finances to pay off an old business partner, in order to save their own money. I let it happen as the other person, whom I had no connection to, deserved some money for their prior efforts. I paid for it even though it was not my responsibility, and it has cost me dearly.

Things happen. In the end, no one gets out "alive".

When that time comes, you meet a door and a condition, a situation, if you will. Not much more than that of a train station, you might say (no need to panic). Which my name means. Literally: The first king, the chosen king, blood and body of the dead, I shelter and guard the door which all dead must pass (if they want to move on, that is). (hilariously, my horoscope also says I'd make a great 'professional greeter')

In the end, the veil of flesh is removed and one only answers to themselves. One can do their best in ignorance or do their best in awareness, it's a matter of personal choice and potential.

[Robin]

Despite my better judgment, I thought that I would express my own thoughts and feelings on the matter. I am friends with both of these wonderful people and talk with them on a regular basis. But I do not necessarily “take sides” in this affair, and instead I choose to spend a lot of my time with them because we seem to have a similar world-view when it comes to understanding the world.

I am very grateful to be a part of this forum, though admittedly, my Anarchist world-view doesn’t necessarily support how the forum is managed. I respect Bill and the Moderators and I accept this structure simply because we all are on the same team that is focused on creating a society built upon Truth and Freedom. This is a community-supported forum, and I recognize that my own monetary donations have been absent due to having no money, in which case I am thankful for my community members supporting those who are not as financially fortunate.

Some may make the argument that I and others who are on friendly terms with C and K are “accomplices” in such an affair. I have made my views clear to C about her action, as I do not condone such actions in a free society. But I also do not accept that her “true character” revolves around such deeds, and I actually understand what drives people to undergo such actions.

We are emotional creatures, and we respond to tense situations through our lizard brain. It is a survival instinct that has been usurped by the Dark Ones, who craft a society where we are constantly bombarded at all angles with situations that make us vulnerable and desperate.

If this particular incident involved two people who are Platonic friends, then I would have a serious issue with the person’s actions and I would be a responsible community member and do everything I could to make sure justice is served. But such is not the case. When two people enter a relationship and romantic love is involved, lines do blur when it comes to stuff like this. Love complicates our use of resources, and thanks to the contractual marital agreement our society has created, Bill’s loss is nowhere near a unique one. A society built around scarcity does not help the way two people come together to share in romantic love. It makes people vulnerable and desperate, and our emotions drive us to act on our survival instincts.

What C did was wrong in a way, but one cannot overlook the complicated mess that romantic love has on the sharing of emotions and resources. A marriage is based upon a sharing of intimate emotions and finances. If either of these two are out of whack, then the marriage is corrupted and such agreements become chaotic. In other words, if finances were stolen, then it is also important that the story of how EMOTIONS were stolen are understood as well (from both people involved). In a marriage, both emotions and finances are equal.

Because emotions are a personal thing, I do not ask B or C to share with everybody else...but at the same time it is the only way for the community (who supports PA financially) to fully understand why the Mods keep so many secrets from the people who keep the forum online.

Again…I am not taking sides. I prefer to stay out of this, but that doesn’t mean I am ignoring any wrong-doings or sticking my head in the sand. What I do prefer to do is to empathize and understand with what drives people to take actions that are otherwise immoral. The main reason that people rob banks and steal from an old lady’s purse is because they are vulnerable and desperate. They are vulnerable and desperate because of a terribly unfair society that was crafted by a dark elite to keep people in a constant state of fear and anxiety. Such a society was crafted to divide people, and the best way to create animosity between people is to make marriage incredibly difficult by making people emotionally deplete and financially unstable.

I choose to blame the dark elite of the world, but I also blame people for believing in authority. The best way to create a better society where people are not vulnerable and desperate is to focus on the roots of the problem. The roots of the problem lie in a paradigm based upon scarcity, and we need to get rid of the belief in authority, stop buying into the Gender Wars and Racial Wars and National Wars, and bring Free Energy into this world.

THAT is what I believe we should be focused on. It doesn’t mean we should ignore C’s action, BUT we need to understand that contractual obligations in marriage mean that both emotional AND financial obligations are met. I think that contractual marriage is a flawed one, as true love should NEVER be contractual.

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."
~Henry David Thoreau

[Fairy Friend]

Oddly, I had issues just before that time and approached Christine about them because that is who I felt comfortable to do so. Both concerning Project Avalon and personal issues. I felt huge confidences were betrayed. I got a 'don't care' attitude. So I left for a time. Trust once broken takes time to rebuild. I am glad that this has come forward. I am glad I missed out on a lot of the chaos that followed. I decided this wasn't the place I thought it was and it will still take me awhile. Trust issues I am still working through.

[Carmody]

Posted by Fairy Friend (here)
Oddly, I had issues just before that time and approached Christine about them because that is who I felt comfortable to do so. Both concerning Project Avalon and personal issues. I felt huge confidences were betrayed. I got a 'don't care' attitude. So I left for a time. Trust once broken takes time to rebuild. I am glad that this has come forward. I am glad I missed out on a lot of the chaos that followed. I decided this wasn't the place I thought it was and it will still take me awhile. Trust issues I am still working through.

When attempting to help the world, the Buddhist thought on the matter, is 'first, do no harm'. and that involves fixing one's self first. To help the world and do no harm - one should strongly orient on self repair prior to such attempt.

The corollary of that is about not seeking help from others, with emphasis on meaning and boundary.

No mother, no father, no protector, no aids, no crutches, no clan, no recipe to be followed, no lies the body tells you...... just self and self repair. Get on with it and find a way to gently fix the self. To learn the pathways to a better form of self organization as a being in a state of change and growth. Essentially, to seek help from others in the fixing of the self is to find one moving down non functional pathways. Sometimes those paths must be taken in order for them to be seen as ultimately non-functional... and even in that, they bear some form of value.

The value in seeking help from others is more the idea of sharing inner moments in a 3D reality form, a communication, if you will. A 'reality check'.

As a wise friend once said to me, to puke it up on the floor between the two of you, and take a stick and poke among the spew and find the functional and real bits, and consider dismissing the stinky acidic remains.

For in the end, it's all on you.

[Delight]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Delight (here)
Please explain the choice to disclose the Personal betrayal because of the Milab issue?

If it were just a personal betrayal, we'd surely have taken a different path.

The path that victims of systemic abuse travel is a difficult one. We help each other, whether we are aware of being such a victim our self or not, by sharing information and experiences that may help a little to light the way for others, and to warn of potential dangers.

This response is from Paul but must be the zeitgeist of the mod team and therefore the inner sanctum's spirit of the forum???

I know form personal experience that "money" and sex, power, control and major emotional triggers go along with intimacy.
That there be a serious break down after break up issue between two humans who married and separated is very familiar.
Passionate romantic love can lead to insanity. I feel empathy for loss that Bill suffered but this "kind" of situation has its "laws"and theft is relative to what each believed was invested and suffered and lost.

There is the perverse way that people react when they feel they were shafted..... "Which came first the betrayal (of one kind) or the betrayal of another when "love" turns to "hate"?

My concern is that I may not subscribe to the larger purpose of PA. I do not believe in victims and more and more this isle seems to be celebrating poverty here.
I am signing off because I don't care about what might have happened to me on the way but what I choose to take on now.

I feel very confident in every single human in this regard. If one chooses to be playing victim, rescuer, perpetrator, that makes no difference as to their true state. Playing might be self deluding but delusion is not reality.

Is this thread intended to persuade my feelings? Cause me to send money?

All of us are behind the computer keyboard as avatars but we have real lives with real coffee, real relationships and real challenges.
I came to PA and enjoyed and researching, investigating sharing my passion for ideas and found many.
Unlike some, I do not believe the principles that were picked up and stamped with labels, "taught" BUT NOT LIVED are less powerful because people misconstrue them.
I wish all well on their way to empowerment.

I do not make light of THE LOSS and I wish Bill well and finances restored.

[Flash]

This is disgusting Carmody but up to the point.

Posted by Carmody (here)

Posted by Fairy Friend (here)
Oddly, I had issues just before that time and approached Christine about them because that is who I felt comfortable to do so. Both concerning Project Avalon and personal issues. I felt huge confidences were betrayed. I got a 'don't care' attitude. So I left for a time. Trust once broken takes time to rebuild. I am glad that this has come forward. I am glad I missed out on a lot of the chaos that followed. I decided this wasn't the place I thought it was and it will still take me awhile. Trust issues I am still working through.

When attempting to help the world, the Buddhist thought on the matter, is 'first, do no harm'. and that involves fixing one's self first. To help the world and do no harm - one should strongly orient on self repair prior to such attempt.

The corollary of that is about not seeking help from others, with emphasis on meaning and boundary.

No mother, no father, no protector, no aids, no crutches, no clan, no recipe to be followed, no lies the body tells you...... just self and self repair. Get on with it and find a way to gently fix the self. To learn the pathways to a better form of self organization as a being in a state of change and growth. Essentially, to seek help from others in the fixing of the self is to find one moving down non functional pathways. Sometimes those paths mus be taken in order for them to be seen as ultimately non-functional... and even in that, they bear some form of value.

The value in seeking help from others is more the idea of sharing inner moments in a 3D reality form, a communication, if you will. A 'reality check'.

As a wise friend once said to me, to puke it up on the floor between the two of you, and take a stick and poke among the spew and find the functional and real bits, and consider dismissing the stinky acidic remains.

For in the end, it's all on you.

[ThePythonicCow]

As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging.

[Matthew]

edit: just saw this in the post above

Posted by Paul (here)
As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging.

So I take back what I'm about to say!

*original post starts here*
Bill is one of the communities resources not the other way round. It's us supporting us, investment into the future of THIS community. It's not something she helped Bill earn it's our group/movement supporting our group/movement. Moralistically it's more like money in a financial trust than earnings. So unless 'C' sees it like this I suggest she has a sloppy sense of boundries. I would like to be incorrect or proved wrong.

Taking of a lovers inheritance gold is also moralistically dodgy, because the taker did not help Bill get that wealth in any shape or form, it was an inheritance.

I currently believe this 'C' owes Project Avalon an apology and Bill and apology. I'm guessing they don't feel they need to do either. Again I hope I'm guessing all the wrong things here.

[Nasu]

Oh dear, a lot of emotions running wild. A very wise old Italian lady once gave me some advice regarding a friend who had stabbed me in the back, metaphorically, I wanted to remain loyal because of the good times we had spent together but was conflicted by their last behaviors..

So she says to me in broken English that if someone is kind to you all day long, goes out of their way for you, saves your life and cooks for you, if that person then kicks you in the head as you sleep that night, they are your enemy.. All the goodness is washed away by their badness..

Sometimes we make our own enemies, sometimes we make them through our friendships with others, either way they are polarizing, but no less real.. A world without enemies is a lovely fantasy, we either know who our enemies are or we don't, but we all have them none the less.

For my part, I am sending healing vibes to Bill, I've picked my side, I hope he finds the opportunity that is always hidden inside horrid moments such as this. Healing vibes Bill...x.... N

[betoobig]

Just guessing but, could all this have been an indirect attack to Bill. As Bill is very well protected, was not possible a direct attack, so they attacked him through another person or persons ... and now the attack is reaching the forum, as it is one of Bill´s extremities....a prolongation.
Sending enormous love/healling through the forum and members, to Bill , moderators and Everyone involved. Amateur healling but with all my heart.
All is well, we are all here.
What an adventure Bill!! Away of the cameras. Life is but a big surprise.
Juan

[Skyhaven]

Edit: *deleted post* tired of making statements on these matters