Closing the Avalon accounts of two long standing members

[AriG]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by AriG (here)

Posted by Hervé (here)

About as elitist as geeks meeting to talk shop, away from non-geeks.

I think the subject matter is a bit more deep than discussing the latest gadget. This is a subject of interest to many here and the majority have been left out of the conversation. That is not whistleblowing. That is secrecy and suppression. This is what the "rulers of the world" do to protect the little people from their perceived inability to handle the truth. This makes me very sad and I expected more from Avalon. Now had these "secret groups" existence been made public, but perhaps not the content until vetted, etc., that would be understandable. I really do not know what else to say except that I am deeply disappointed.

edit to add: Sorry to intervene. See ya'll later...

Ari, you may have (understandably) misunderstood what the context is here.

If I invite you to my house to chat personally about (e.g.) a weird, disturbing dream you had last night, and what it might possibly mean, and whether or not it was an abduction experience (say) — you'd not want me to be recording it all to post on YouTube. You'd want it to be very private.

That's not elitist, or 'secrecy and suppression'... that's privacy, safety, and confidentiality, and most people are very glad that can be there sometimes.

Does that help explain it a little better?

Understood. But if this is the case, why are you bringing up on the public forum? Sends the message that the rest of the class isn't quite "cool enough" to hang out with the "in crowd".

Not trying to stir the pot, just my initial reaction to reading that. As you stated, it is your living room. You can put the placecards wherever you wish. Best Wishes.

[Limor Wolf]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Limor Wolf (here)

In my personal feelings, such statements may turn out to be somewhat irresponsible (please don't take this personally, I have deep appreciation for Bill and the team), again, done with the immense desire to help, understand, assist and go to the bottom of the phenomenon, and with sincere wish to protect these people... But at certain times, the results were not so much in alignment with this aim (though much did indeed serve this purpose), but therein lays the problem in making such declaration

Many blessings ~

Limor

I'll respond to this publicly... and even if I misread what Limor is referring to (but I don't think I am!), there's no harm in making a public statement in clarity.

There were, over time, two different private Milabs groups on the Avalon forum, non-public and non-searchable on Google or anywhere else. They had maybe a dozen members each, including myself (because I have one or two unusual stories to tell, too).

From one of those, former Avalon member Lysaur (now unsubscribed), had copied three very sensitive posts of mine, and posted them elsewhere in the net. He was evidently just targeting me, and no-one else was compromised. He was a member of one of those groups, and not the other. But as a precaution, we closed both groups for a fair period of time before re-opening them.

All we can do is be as vigilant as possible. It was Rachel (kudos! ) who spotted the smoking gun fingerprint that enabled the mole to be identified with certainty. Our vigilance extended to Lysaur having been recommended to us by a well-known and highly experienced Milabs researcher, not on the forum, whom everyone respected. It seemed safe... but in that instance, it was not. Everyone acted in good faith.

It's the 'good faith' bit that's really important here.

Originally posted by Bill Ryan : "even if I misread what Limor is referring to (but I don't think I am!)"

Hi Bill,

You did

I am sorry to hear about those instances and lack of confidentiality being breached, that is really sounds unfair

But, this is not quite what I meant

In order to protect and declare oneself as protector of Milabs, one must understand triggering and programming to a large degree and 'who does what to who' in a percise manner (relevant researchers do understand this quite well) that part seemed to be missing at certain times, were support was issued to the side who inflicted the triggering of the 'Milab' and the other was punished for their uncontrolable reaction. There were few instances were people who obviously experienced and expressed a great deal of pain due to their situation were expelled from the forum. What I am saying here is that without the ability 'to read between the lines' and understand all the nuances (which is really difficult), it may be somewhat challenging to spread the wings over another and declare a place as a 'safe zone' while others are pointed at as not meeting the same creterion.
I personally would have rather detail this in privet, even though I happened to write to you or to Paul at the time with regards to that.

Many good Blessings ~

Limor

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by AriG (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Ari, you may have (understandably) misunderstood what the context is here.

If I invite you to my house to chat personally about (e.g.) a weird, disturbing dream you had last night, and what it might possibly mean, and whether or not it was an abduction experience (say) — you'd not want me to be recording it all to post on YouTube. You'd want it to be very private.

That's not elitist, or 'secrecy and suppression'... that's privacy, safety, and confidentiality, and most people are very glad that can be there sometimes.

Does that help explain it a little better?

Understood. But if this is the case, why are you bringing up on the public forum? Sends the message that the rest of the class isn't quite "cool enough" to hang out with the "in crowd".

Not trying to stir the pot, just my initial reaction to reading that. As you stated, it is your living room. You can put the placecards wherever you wish. Best Wishes.

Dear Ari, if I may say, this may be a sensitivity of yours... it's not about 'excluding anyone', or any kind of elitism, an 'in-crowd', or anyone being 'chosen'. CERTAINLY not about being 'cool'.

If you wanted to write to the mods to ask for a private group because you were (say) an ex-marine, and wanted to talk about the post-traumatic effects of killing people in warfare, but didn't want that to be public (for whatever good reasons — maybe because there were genuinely upsetting experiences you wanted to share and discuss) — we'd be doing our job to consider it, and might be able to help by putting you in touch with others who we knew had asked the same question.

Avalon's JOB (or one of them) is to help people connect with each other, in understanding and mutual support. Look at AngelEyes' remarkable, courageous thread about Cutting and Self-harm:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ting-Self-harm

Many people might have wanted to make that private. I would! But she didn't... and much kudos to her for her bravery. But if she'd wanted it to be very private, you and I have to agree, surely, that'd be really easy to understand.

Do read that thread, if you've not yet had a chance to. AngelEyes is suffering a very great deal, and (very publicly) is fighting with inner forces that are sometimes making her life almost unbearable.

This is in no way being 'cool'... it's someone who's a member here, begging for help and support. (And sometimes, many Milabs may agree that's what it feels like some days, as well.)

Does this help a little more?

[Sierra]

Limor,

Thank you.

Love, Sierra

[AriG]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by AriG (here)
Understood. But if this is the case, why are you bringing up on the public forum? Sends the message that the rest of the class isn't quite "cool enough" to hang out with the "in crowd".

Not trying to stir the pot, just my initial reaction to reading that. As you stated, it is your living room. You can put the placecards wherever you wish. Best Wishes.

Dear Ari, if I may say, this may be a sensitivity of yours... it's not about 'excluding anyone', or any kind of elitism, an 'in-crowd', or anyone being 'chosen'. CERTAINLY not about being 'cool'.

If you wanted to write to the mods to ask for a private group because you were (say) an ex-marine, and wanted to talk about the post-traumatic effects of killing people in warfare, but didn't want that to be public (for whatever good reasons — maybe because there were genuinely upsetting experiences you wanted to share and discuss) — we'd be doing our job to consider it, and might be able to help by putting you in touch with others who we knew had asked the same question.

Avalon's JOB (or one of them) is to help people connect with each other, in understanding and mutual support. Look at AngelEyes' remarkable, courageous thread about Cutting and Self-harm:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ting-Self-harm

Many people might have wanted to make that private. I would! But she didn't... and much kudos to her for her bravery. But if she'd wanted it to be very private, you and I have to agree, surely, that'd be really easy to understand.

Does that help a little more?

It may be, but I think it is more about transparency and ability to trust. Certainly understand why an injured one would want confidentiality. Get that. It is just my opinion that you probably shouldn't be advertising the existence of these groups that exclude the other members. It lends one to the false impression that there are "behind the scenes machinations" taking place. Conjures up the same emotional responses we all have toward Black Projects, Secret Societies and their ilk. It made it look (at least to me), that "there is more to know, but we're not going to tell you". That's what I meant about the "in crowd". You intent was innocent, but it raised a flag. Sometimes, it seems to me, that the alternative media has its own little "inner circle". I just don't see how that differs from the PTB, at least on the surface. But hey, this is cyberspace. You "takes your chances" Thanks for the clarity and the last thing you need right now is me, a part timer, being an anarchist. Best Wishes!

edit to add: You are very 'cool', Bill Ryan. If I were on the market, as you now are, I would definitely be making a stab!

[ErtheVessel]

Dear Paul and the moderation team - thank you for your integrity and dedication. I have rarely seen anything like it. The Avalon Forum is a unique refuge, and that is due to your heartfelt, diligent and intelligent dedication. I have learned in life that if something exists, it cannot be something else. In other words, for an apple to be an apple, it cannot be a pear. In that way, it has boundaries and a clear, distinct reality. The Avalon Forum is the Avalon Forum, it is not something else. In order for it to be the Avalon Forum, it has clear boundaries and a distinct reality. I imagine the job of the mods is to maintain the clarity and focus of the forum. You all are greatly appreciated for your mature understanding of that fact and for your ability to stay centered in spite of any ruckus that ensues.

And Bill, I am so glad to hear that you are doing well, and in fact better than you have been in years. Good for you. I understand that leadership is indeed a sacrifice, (as one other poster mentioned), and that your life becomes, more or less incidentally, a public spectacle. Thank you for your vision and dedication to this forum and its mission in spite of how trying I would imagine that could sometimes be. So far I have seen you respond with unfailing kindness when appropriate and firmness when appropriate. This is a hard balance to manage.

I am grateful for the intent of this thread, which was to alert others to the possible dangers in trusting specific people who have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. This is like an internal whistleblower event. In my view, that's an important part of what the Avalon Forum is all about. Thank you.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by ErtheVessel (here)
Dear Paul and the moderation team - thank you for your integrity and dedication.

Thank-you for the kind words, ErtheVessel.

[TODD & NORA]

It is a bit of a chore keeping folks on the straight-n-narrow...keep up the great work!

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by PRAY PEACE (here)
It is a bit of a chore keeping folks on the straight-n-narrow...keep up the great work!

Not a chore at all, sir. Engaging with a delightful diversity of talented and well informed colleagues -- the classic way to gain an education, and still the best.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by PRAY PEACE (here)
It is a bit of a chore keeping folks on the straight-n-narrow...keep up the great work!

Not a chore at all, sir. Engaging with a delightful diversity of talented and well informed colleagues -- the classic way to gain an education, and still the best.

And it is because of this attitude and the obvious patience required to go with it, is why Paul (not to exclude others with this quality) has been quite an outstanding Admin and member here at Avalon, I must say.

[RunningDeer]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
And it is because of this attitude and the obvious patience required to go with it, is why Paul (not to exclude others with this quality) has been quite an outstanding Admin and member here at Avalon, I must say.

[transiten]

I will also confess that seeking help after having been deceived by the-rape-ist I told of in an earlier post and under the spell of the "Meditation guru" that brainwashed me I did some shadowy things thinking I was on the road of enlightenment and that I had the right to do this since my ego and hubris was triggered by the "guru" who knew exactly what buttons to push. I watch myself closely these days after the heavy prize I made myself pay for this trip to the underworld of Pluto.

Noone knows about this except my "higher self" that I see as my more spiritually evolved soulgroup and noone knowing me as a peace activist, fighting for the underdog, obsessed with justice and equality would have suspected me for doing this. It's not big crime but things I still feel ashamed of but have forgiven myself in perspective of my history.

[Jake]

My mother and sister consider themselves powerful esoteric healers. My sister just opened a website offering 'healing'. I feel it is worthwhile to clarify my understanding regarding 'healing'.

If i break a bone, i need it 'set' and properly treated by a physician.
If i need a heart replacement, i most certainly need a surgeon.
If i cut my skin, i need stitches.
If i contract ebola, i need to be quarantined and treated.

I would not go to an esoteric healer, sitting in front of a computer, logged into Skype! That is common sense, no?

A MILAB is a tortured person/soul. Someone who has been psychologically, physically, and spiritually TORTURED AND RUINED. Broken bones, broken souls, broken minds. They suffer from untold mind control modalities and have been experimented on by untold and unethical processes. They often have past life connections to their trauma that is exploited in unspeakable ways. They suffer memory loss, blockages from direct influence and through trauma. They have implants, both physical and mental that are preprogrammed to trigger and cause further detrimental and self-destructive behavior. They have terrifying memory fragments that cause them physical and emotional pain.

i could go on and on and on and on....

It DOES go on and on. Then there are victims of other types of systematic ritual abuse so downright evil that most folks don't believe it even happens.

These folks need their plight to be taken much more seriously!!!!!

I have a MILAB friend. I haven't seen him since his 'breach', he is completely ruined. I was with him when he was taken to Inpatient, (psych ward). I haven't seen or heard from him since then. His mom told me that they wont let her see him anymore, but the last time she was there he was sedated, being treated for biting off part of his tongue!

I sometimes imagine him being charged money from someone who claims they can heal him remotely over a feckin Skype session!!!!

My friend need ENTIRE TEAMS of doctors, both psychological and physical. My friend sits there and rocks back and forth and doesn't even realize it. When they came for him i got a sense of how detrimental his condition (s) are.

I digress. There is a lot of amazing work being done by lots of intuitive healers, and we are learning about our potentials as humans.

Ive seen too many 'healers' become infected with whatever it is they think they are healing. Like a nurse who gets a cold treating a patient... MILABS and ritual abuse victims (many times) are programmed/infected with unknown and dangerous triggers that infects the 'healer'.

That is what they are up against. That is what WE are up against!

If you think it is ethical to exhault yourself to a point where you are FURTHER EXPERIMENTING on these tortured souls then you are a fool!!!

I foresee a future where we have entire medical facilities that incorporates hard and soft healing modalities as well as the support for friends/family/community. I really do!!!

I can see the building blocks of such an endeavor. And it takes all of us.

Personal sovereignty includes empowering others as opposed to exhaulting yourself. I have turned folks away who were offering me cash for healing that was 'out of my lane'.. It would have been unethical to even consider it...

The MILAB/Ritual abuse victim is layered with different types of physical/mental/emotional/esoteric torture.

As well, they need layers of professional healing and support that cannot be achieved over a Skype session.. no offense...


I support a team effort as opposed to privately conjoling victims into your own private, self-declared healing experiments...


(they are worth much more than that)

Jake

[Carmody]

Posted by AriG (here)

It may be, but I think it is more about transparency and ability to trust. Certainly understand why an injured one would want confidentiality. Get that. It is just my opinion that you probably shouldn't be advertising the existence of these groups that exclude the other members. It lends one to the false impression that there are "behind the scenes machinations" taking place. Conjures up the same emotional responses we all have toward Black Projects, Secret Societies and their ilk. It made it look (at least to me), that "there is more to know, but we're not going to tell you". That's what I meant about the "in crowd". You intent was innocent, but it raised a flag. Sometimes, it seems to me, that the alternative media has its own little "inner circle". I just don't see how that differs from the PTB, at least on the surface. But hey, this is cyberspace. You "takes your chances" Thanks for the clarity and the last thing you need right now is me, a part timer, being an anarchist. Best Wishes!

edit to add: You are very 'cool', Bill Ryan. If I were on the market, as you now are, I would definitely be making a stab!

The reality is that such musing about secrecy and the rest you've gone on about.... as far as i can tell...are all in your mind and not in the minds of others. Seriously.

To not mention such things, can cause trip-ups at later dates, and then people throw out the secrecy crap and try to make it stick.

There is nothing to hide here, nothing to hide there, or wherever. People read magazines while in the lavatory. Big deal whoopee.....

Moderators discuss things among themselves. Big deal. Whatever. This is normal, not odd.

Seeming to keep the existence of the mundane and normal secret, would be a worse thing. It would be a point where a manipulator (on or off the forum), might be trying to create a semblance of a problem, trying to inflate and create a problem where none exists, an agitator... if you will.

[Mark]

I love you all, and you all know who you are, reading this, currently at PA or elsewhere. No matter where we all are now, here is where this all began. This time. My heart hurts, as it has for a while now. I watch and listen from a distance and know this is all for the best. The highest. No matter the side, no matter the outcome, there is no end. This is just another pause on the road. A gathering of the tribe with all of its expressions, to reconfigure interaction and expression. The connections are real, and lasting even if, sometimes, we wish they did not and even as we act to attempt to sever them. It will lead to even more branchings, continuing this journey in its lessons and implications for past and future. We are all together for a reason. Now. Even if we are not all here. No matter how it may look or how it may feel, we grow. And we all know this. To echo Jeffrey's earnest intent and love for all parties involved, I offer the following:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Corinthians 13:12

This will be my only post on this topic. Blessings.

[Savannah]

I can’t help but notice a trend in how people in this forum and others react to conflict. There is generally a divergence between those who feel strongly about not expressing any anger or frustration toward other members and those that defend the right to do so. My perception is that perhaps the New Age meme of love everyone it’s your path to ascension may be behind some of it. I was just posting on a thread about NDE’s and referenced Cameron Day. He wrote “Why I’m no longer a Light Worker” about his thoughts on the New Age Movement , the following seems relevant here.

Universal Law & Defensive Force
In most New (c)Age doctrines, it is considered "unspiritual" or "unevolved" to even consider the use of defensive force. A good little new-ager is apparently supposed to let people and parasitic beings walk all over them, steal from them, drain their energy, manipulate / implant them, and harm them in any manner they choose. Not only that, but they should also suppress any "negative emotions" so that they will be basically "happy victims" of such abuses. This manipulative, deceptive "teaching" comes from the false-light, and nothing could be further from the real truth.The Prime Universal Law is very simple: All beings are Sovereign and have free will to express their creative urges in any way they choose, but no being has the right to violate and harm others. The corollary to that law is also very simple: Because all beings are Sovereign, they have the right to defend themselves from harm, using whatever level of force is necessary to stop the violation from occurring, even if it results in the destruction of the one inflicting the harm.
http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/20...worker-part-2/



I observed this happening when Bill was criticized for doubting Corey Goode and it played out in many of the early postings. Obviously I tend to take the stance that if I’m wronged I have right to defend myself and in the appropriate circumstance do something to stop it from happening to others. However I can say in the early 90’s when I was deep in the New Age meme I felt guilty over doing just that.
This thread to me does very much belong here. I appreciate being informed why a member is being removed. If I’m removed you all the right to know why, that effects why you may or may not decide to participate in this forum. I’m a psychologist that specializes in trauma, I can testify to the damage an untrained, albeit well-meaning person can do to a trauma experiencer. Anyone can be supportive and should be, but saying you can treat a person is whole different dimension.

[promezeus]

I would not go to an esoteric healer, sitting in front of a computer, logged into Skype! That is common sense, no?

jake et al........

Come on now, let's not start acting like the ptb who wants to license everything and everybody. Freedom and self responsibility have to come first and should not be overridden by any ptb. That is paramount. This thread was simply written so avalon could officially distance themselves from being seen as supporting ANY specific individuals involved in such endeavors. This is a very simple and necessary disclaimer . The Avalon Community WILL NOT BE USED........... Frankly I thought the rest of the disclaimer went a bit too far for my taste, but it's ok.

So NO, your statement is not common sense. If that's the reality you want to create, then fine, but dr. joe dispenza healed his multi fractured spine back to normal while lying in his bed doing visualizations, and he's currently doing workshops teaching people how to materialize objects out of thin air with only their mind, ok? He's teaching people that spontaneous remissions are nothing but mental or visualization technology. That may not fit with your common sense, but he's a neuro scientist who is documenting everything, so maybe his common sense is different from yours?

As far as christine et al, I myself nearly began healing sessions with her but backed out because it didn't feel right. WE all have to listen to our own feelings and take them seriously. There really is no other way as all other ways lead to disempowerment. The problem begins with our upbringing where we are prevented from the hard knocks of learning for ourselves. So like a hothouse plant, we are unable to withstand the rigors of the natural world since we never developed our innate instincts. However the solution is still the same as it was in childhood, the learning process just begins a little later and a little more bottom up nurturing is required, but this top down nonsense has to go.

[Fairy Friend]

So the lessons I get from this thread are,

Be wary of cons which can have many motivations from downright evil, to unwitting pawns that may be manipulated or victims themselves, to those with good intent but have been misled, to those who have taken on more than they know or can handle.

Also, the right expert for the right problem. Dentists and heart surgeons are both doctors but they are specialties. Or a more spiritual example, one can pray or send well wishes to say one possessed but excorcising a demon is different thing.

And know what your limitations are. I had a neighbor whose child was born with a heart that would not grow as his body did. So he required heart surgeries periodically in his life but the night before the heart surgeon was to perform surgery his dad died so he cancelled it immediately.

Or to run with another metaphor, don't do battle unless your Amor's on and your sword is sharpened, a horse is nice honestly and backup or an escape route or plan B might be necessary.

[Jake]

Posted by promezeus (here)

I would not go to an esoteric healer, sitting in front of a computer, logged into Skype! That is common sense, no?

jake et al........

Come on now, let's not start acting like the ptb who wants to license everything and everybody. Freedom and self responsibility have to come first and should not be overridden by any ptb. That is paramount. This thread was simply written so avalon could officially distance themselves from being seen as supporting ANY specific individuals involved in such endeavors. This is a very simple and necessary disclaimer . The Avalon Community WILL NOT BE USED........... Frankly I thought the rest of the disclaimer went a bit too far for my taste, but it's ok.

So NO, your statement is not common sense. If that's the reality you want to create, then fine, but dr. joe dispenza healed his multi fractured spine back to normal while lying in his bed doing visualizations, and he's currently doing workshops teaching people how to materialize objects out of thin air with only their mind, ok? He's teaching people that spontaneous remissions are nothing but mental or visualization technology. That may not fit with your common sense, but he's a neuro scientist who is documenting everything, so maybe his common sense is different from yours?

As far as christine et al, I myself nearly began healing sessions with her but backed out because it didn't feel right. WE all have to listen to our own feelings and take them seriously. There really is no other way as all other ways lead to disempowerment. The problem begins with our upbringing where we are prevented from the hard knocks of learning for ourselves. So like a hothouse plant, we are unable to withstand the rigors of the natural world since we never developed our innate instincts. However the solution is still the same as it was in childhood, the learning process just begins a little later and a little more bottom up nurturing is required, but this top down nonsense has to go.

Who said anything about the ptb? Im talking about the responsibility of a 'healer' and the approach to anomalous trauma, etc... And the responsibility of community to support the health of these people! I've been witness to amazing healing through visualization. Healing a hurt finger or broken back is quite different than what's at stake! Many times if one can tackle an inner demon, or past life trauma (for example) it can miraculously cure a physical ailment, as it's root cause is mental/emotional. I'm NOT against that.

What happens when something else altogether triggers, and the patient 'breaches' and begins reacting in uncontrollable ways? What does the healer do? Just stare at their Skype and hope for the best? ? Is there support for this person? Are their knowledgeable responsible medical professionals there? Because when this level of trauma manifests, there's absolutely nothing that you can do over a Skype session. What happens? Is the Skype healer going to take responsibility? What if the Skype healer tends to not take responsibility for their actions?

I don't actually expect you or anyone to have these answers. But i really would be impressed if folks to begin to consider it.

[sheme]

Hi Christine if any of my small Avalon contributions fell into your open hand- I give them to you - ask the universe and you will receive. Your new beginning . No guilt no pain.

Hi Bill- enjoy your new path when you find it - the Gods turn your head away from the old. Good to know you are enjoying life- my love to dog.



"sh*t happens so flowers can grow"