David Talbott | The Electric Universe, The Saturn/Sun Swap, & The Reconstructing Of Mythology

[giovonni]

Here's a great introduction into the Electric Universe Movement ...


From TheHighersideChats

"David Talbott, an expert in comparative mythology, walks us through the Electric Universe model, the idea that Saturn was our Sun before the Sun, and the many ways this new paradigm makes sense of previous dismissed aspects of mythologies around the world."

Biography:

David Talbott is a comparative mythologist whose work offers a radical new vantage point on the origin of ancient cultural themes and symbols. His research has been the primary catalyst behind the "Saturn Model," and is the subject of the feature documentary, "Remembering the End of the World." He is the author of The Saturn Myth and co-author (with Wallace Thornhill) of Thunderbolts of the Gods.

Websites:

thunderbolts.info

Books:

The Electric Universe
The Saturn Myth

Thunderbolts of the Gods Movie

* Related Project Avalon Thread: Discourses on an Alien Sky | When Planets Were the Gods

Published on Jan 11, 2016

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZLBuBiGE5o0

[nomadguy]

Or start from the very beginning:
Remembering the End of the World Full Documentary- David Talbott

[earthdreamer]

I see another thread on Avalon about this:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...-David-Talbott

More vid links here:

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ld+documentary


This all reminds me of the Graham Hancock book I am reading (about 3/4 thru) "Magicians of the Gods", his follow-up to "Fingerprints of the Gods". He starts his book on the science proving the calamitous comet event that hit N.America into the ice sheet causing widespread flooding and global climate change. (now I am going to cheat by including the Amazon synopsis instead of writing my own, there may already be a thread on this book):



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/125...s=books&sr=1-1

Graham Hancock's multi-million bestseller Fingerprints of the Gods remains an astonishing, deeply controversial, wide-ranging investigation of the mysteries of our past and the evidence for Earth's lost civilization. Twenty years on, Hancock returns with the sequel to his seminal work filled with completely new, scientific and archaeological evidence, which has only recently come to light...

Near the end of the last Ice Age 12,800 years ago, a giant comet that had entered the solar system from deep space thousands of years earlier, broke into multiple fragments. Some of these struck the Earth causing a global cataclysm on a scale unseen since the extinction of the dinosaurs. At least eight of the fragments hit the North American ice cap, while further fragments hit the northern European ice cap. The impacts, from comet fragments a mile wide approaching at more than 60,000 miles an hour, generated huge amounts of heat which instantly liquidized millions of square kilometers of ice, destabilizing the Earth's crust and causing the global Deluge that is remembered in myths all around the world. A second series of impacts, equally devastating, causing further cataclysmic flooding, occurred 11,600 years ago, the exact date that Plato gives for the destruction and submergence of Atlantis.

The evidence revealed in this book shows beyond reasonable doubt that an advanced civilization that flourished during the Ice Age was destroyed in the global cataclysms between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago. But there were survivors - known to later cultures by names such as 'the Sages', 'the Magicians', 'the Shining Ones', and 'the Mystery Teachers of Heaven'. They travelled the world in their great ships doing all in their power to keep the spark of civilization burning. They settled at key locations - Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, Baalbek in the Lebanon, Giza in Egypt, ancient Sumer, Mexico, Peru and across the Pacific where a huge pyramid has recently been discovered in Indonesia. Everywhere they went these 'Magicians of the Gods' brought with them the memory of a time when mankind had fallen out of harmony with the universe and paid a heavy price. A memory and a warning to the future...

For the comet that wrought such destruction between 12,800 and 11,600 years may not be done with us yet. Astronomers believe that a 20-mile wide 'dark' fragment of the original giant comet remains hidden within its debris stream and threatens the Earth. An astronomical message encoded at Gobekli Tepe, and in the Sphinx and the pyramids of Egypt,warns that the 'Great Return' will occur in our time...

[Lloyd]

Thoth Newsletter
From about 1997-2004 Talbott and others had an online magazine where they published articles on mythology and electric universe theory. It was called Thoth and copies of the magazine are posted at http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/. That's the webpage of the Index, which has links to all of the issues of the magazine on following webpages.

Electric Universe Theory
The mythology is the most interesting to me. I used to like their electric universe theory, but I found that they were never to explain anything in much detail. I'm still a member of their forum at http://thunderbolts.info, but for the past 3 years I've found that another forum member there has a much better electric universe theory than the site owners. His name is Charles Chandler and he's been working on his own EU theory for over 3 years. I worked with him a little, but he figured things out himself, mostly. He has a lot of papers posted on his website under Astrophysics & Geophysics at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/6031.html.

Mythology = History
I like the EU team's mythology and their Saturn Theory, because it helps to explain the history of humanity and cataclysms on the Earth and in the solar system. Maybe I'll write up a little summary of the Saturn Theory here later.

[Foxie Loxie]

Appreciate so much your introducing me to the work of David Talbot. I am learning SO much!

[araucaria]

An alternative cosmology: Saturn = Nibiru, Earth a moon of Saturn

This title is too loud – more of a conclusion than a starting point: it is designed to get you reading. Now that you are started, you may like to follow how pondering a few implications and discrepancies led me to this far-reaching deduction through a little logical thinking and conjecture, and not a little speculation. Also, if this hypothesis is correct, then a number of tentative conclusions may be drawn regarding our contemporary predicament and where it fits in with things like the multimillennial plan we occasionally hear about. But actually, I have no pretentions regarding the content below, being simply intrigued at how a planned couple of paragraphs just grew and grew.

I have been acquainted with David Talbott’s work for a few years and have recently watched a couple of hours of his videos, and I suggest the reader does the same.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=t7EAlTcZFwY

The basic thesis is that at one time within human memory (however long that is: I’d say a very long time), Saturn was stationed above the North Pole like a sun, with Venus sandwiched in between, and Mars sandwiched in between Venus and Earth. It turns out that the ‘thunderbolt’ effects are in line with the electric universe (EU) theory, and their configurations are reproducible in the laboratory. I shall provide few screen shots as illustration as we go along.

The EU theory is one thing, and David Talbott’s global reading of mythology is another, but understandably the two go hand in hand. The one is internally consistent when what is seen in the cosmos can be reproduced in the laboratory; the other internally consistent when what is visualized in the cosmos can be corroborated by the iconography of world myth. In addition, both receive further corroboration from each other. Talbott’s theory, which, however outlandish at first glance, seems plausible on account of the sheer volume of material it enables him to explain – up to and including a ship sailing upside down, for which he finds visual and textual evidence that this was indeed a notion people entertained in distant ages – becomes a whole lot more plausible when the thunderbolts drawn by ancient peoples turn out to be exactly what EU theory predicts between planets at close range. So there are two ways of taking this research forward: either through scientific research into EU theory, or (my own preferred course) by discussing and furthering Talbott’s interpretation of mythology. Ever since I bought Robert Graves’ The Greek Myths almost fifty years ago, the tales of Zeus, Cronos, Aphrodite and Co. have never made so much sense as they do now. The idea now is to see how Talbott’s theory fits in or otherwise with things we might think we know – or rather we think we might know – from other researchers (e.g. Sitchin), with things that definitely work empirically (astrology), and with things that we can actually hold in our hand or even eat (e.g. scallops).

The presentation format below is stream-of-conscious reasoning rather than a structured essay. A few headings, some of them slightly facetious, have been added for easier reading.

Celestial mechanics. Talbott quotes scientific validation of the stability of four planets closely aligned, such as his presentation of Mars in front of Venus in front of Saturn over Earth’s North Pole. This is all very well, but we need to know first how this situation came about, and secondly how it was disrupted. The disruption part is slightly easier to imagine. Some sort of ‘worlds in collision’ scenario must have played out (Talbott quotes Velikovsky as a source of some of his ideas). Since Greek myth describes Saturn/Cronos as having been dethroned by his son Zeus/Jupiter, the question is, What was Jupiter up to in the meantime – after all Jupiter is closer to us than Saturn? To put it another way: Talbott explains why ancient people were so obsessed by Saturn, which is now a barely visible speck in the sky: the same question (and answer) may apply to Jupiter. Jupiter must have somehow cannoned into the others like a billiard ball. See this post:

If this stable planetary configuration was possible and it was possible to disrupt it, the question remains as to how it was set up in the first place. This orderly arrangement would require a huge amount of negentropy to set up. There are many possible outcomes of disruption, but only one perfect alignment. Hence, if we return to our analogy of the pool game, you are not going to set up this initial situation with a billiard cue. The way to do it would be, as in the game itself, to have someone (either a player or an outsider, possibly a referee) position the balls by hand. This might be within the capacity of what Michio Kaku and others call a Type II civilization; or it might take a Type III one – an approximation of divine intervention.

Alternatively, if we take the view that planets and stars are sentient beings with higher consciousness, then another analogy would be more appropriate: say a dance troupe moving into position before the curtain rises, and subsequently also moving under their own steam, and why not in endless repetitive orbits.

The question then comes to mind: is this the first time that this has happened, or is it a recurring event? Well, Greek myth suggests that it might have happened at least once before, since what Zeus/Jupiter did to Cronos/Saturn, Cronos/Saturn had already done to Ouranos/Uranus. Ouranos means heaven/the sky, and of course Uranus is the next planet out after Saturn.

The objection would be that Uranus, being (almost) invisible to the naked eye, was not discovered until 1781. However, it may be that the planet was also much closer to the Earth at the time. This leads us to ask where precisely the Saturn-Venus-Mars-Earth conjunction is supposed to have taken place. Talbott seems to presuppose that it occurred in Earth’s present orbit, since he describes the crescents appearing on Saturn as being caused by the Sun behaving normally. For one thing, this is a rather anthropocentric view to take: there is nothing to prevent this happening in another planet’s neighbourhood, Mars’s, Venus’s or most likely Saturn’s. For another, it leads to a possibly mistaken interpretation: I am not at all sure that sunlight coming along the ecliptic, roughly the equatorial plane, would produce this effect of the crescent at top and bottom above the North Pole. Unless I’m mistaken, this is the wrong direction for the incoming sunlight.



Rather than a starting-point in Earth orbit, my first idea would be that, based on the billiard ball analogy, the larger planets (Saturn but also Jupiter/Zeus) would travel shorter distances than the smaller ones, which would bounce off much further. Jupiter, being more than three times bigger even than Saturn, would hardly move at all, which suggests that the event must have occurred some way beyond Jupiter’s presentday orbit. The three tiny inner planets would easily be pushed a long way in towards the Sun. But there is problem here: if this were the case, then Mars, being smallest, should be closest to the Sun, not furthest out.

Astrology. Jupiter’s intervention therefore brings high entropy to disturb a situation of great stability. The stability can be seen in astrological terms. If everyone on the planet has the same triple conjunction (syzygy) in their birth chart – these four planets apparently square to the Sun and everything else – and moreover live their entire lives under this same planetary configuration, then the entire populations, being quasi astro twins, would likely live together in great harmony – and probably a degree of telepathic communication would be the rule as well.

This being the case, then another likely Earth connection with Mars, depicted as a pillar or mountain, or a stairway to heaven (or “Jacob’s ladder”) would be the Tower of Babel – only not built from the Earth up for humans to emulate the “gods”. This “tower” was already in place, and whether or not its destruction had the aim described in the myth, it would have had that effect, notably in astrological terms. In other words, the multiple conjunction would seem to be the birth chart of the entire human race collectively, that is to say marking the beginning of time for the latest version of humanity to which we still belong.

This tower with two half-crescents on either side leads to various other myths, such as the horned bull, the twins, and of course... the twin towers of Judaism and masonry. Whatever else it did or was, 911 re-enacted a very ancient archetype.

Static vs dynamic. Returning to the billiard ball scenario, as I said, we have a problem with Mars, which being by some margin the smallest of the three planets, should have travelled the furthest, when the opposite is the case. So this static view is perhaps not viable. Let’s see if a dynamic approach doesn’t work better: in other words, when the planetary alignment was disturbed, it already had its own proper motion, meaning not so much in solar orbit as moving inwards, along a path similar to the one described by Zechariah Sitchin with reference to Nibiru. To put it another way: maybe ‘Nibiru’ and its cohort of satellites was actually Saturn with the three telluric planets in tow (along with any other moons).

If we take Saturn and Co as a totally independent system – i.e. Saturn as a tiny brown dwarf coming into the solar system – this would explain quite a few discrepancies and conundrums. Let’s have a look at some of its properties before taking it anywhere.

sun vs Sun. David Talbott describes how in many cultures, Saturn is identified with the Sun; for example, in Greek, Cronos identified with Helios. This makes no sense if we see it as mistaking an outer planet for our star, Sol. It makes a great deal of sense, on the other hand, if we take ‘sun’ in the generic sense of as source of light and warmth from the standpoint of a satellite. This suggests that at one time Saturn was the Earth’s only such source, thereby placing the Saturn system outside the solar system.

Timelessness. Venus, Mars and Earth were then presumably locked together, rotating around Saturn with the same side facing the central ‘sun’, i.e. Saturn. We know this is possible because it is precisely how our own Moon behaves to this day (i.e. one lunar day equals one lunar year). This is possibly what is meant by the timeless era before time: with the spatial movements of each planet relative to the others being cancelled out, time was virtually measureless. The beginning of time is associated with Saturn, when Cronus (meaning Crow) became known as Chronos (time). (This by the way is not a mistake or a case of popular etymology but a pun, similar to Petrus the rock on which the Church was built.)

A polar equator. This means that instead of having a closest ‘point’ that is linear, as we do now with the equator, you would have a real point, namely the North Pole, which would have been the hottest and brightest place on the planet. It would be interesting to investigate what effects the EU (electric universe) theory would predict for a permanent focal point like this. Maybe it would drill a hole in the Earth’s crust, a possible explanation for the absence of a landmass at the North Pole. It might explain why places like Egypt or the Sahara used to be extremely wet: they were way down in the cooler parts of the globe. It may also account for the ‘drip effect’ of Earth’s landmasses, which are almost always triangular in shape with the sharp end to the south. Lastly, it may further explain why most of Earth’s landmasses are in the northern hemisphere – some sort of gravitational or electro-magnetic attraction, I imagine. One objection to the theory of an original single landmass called Pangaea is that it would make a planet like our current one unstable: not so in the configuration we are talking about here. Plate tectonics may be the gradual stabilization ongoing since Saturn moved away and the single continent planet became unstable.

The underworld. This would also explain why all the oldest civilizations were in the northern hemisphere, in what are today temperate areas. They would have been the most temperate areas back then too, not too far from the limited heat from Saturn. But there is another reason why further south would not be viable. For as you moved towards the equator and beyond, the polar configuration would begin to dip below the horizon until only the upper crescent of Saturn was visible. Still further south, even this much would be out of sight. Hence much of the southern hemisphere would be in permanent penumbra and even darkness, with only starlight and possibly moonlight. Notice, this is the only place where the stars would be visible, since the northern hemisphere would be in perpetual daylight from Saturn.

This configuration provides a more satisfactory explanation for the ancient twin notions of the heavens (ouranos) on the one hand, and on the other, the underworld. The Earth would really have been divided into a dark zone and a light zone. This would be compatible with a flat earth world view: you would not literally fall off the edge, but you would come to a point where most would venture no further. Whatever went on in the underworld, it would have been a very different place from simply the area beneath the horizon at any one time, as is often thought.

Let there be dark. Since it is a bit of a black hole, we can perhaps get a glimpse of something happening on the event horizon. According to Greek myth, Zeus (Jupiter) was helped in deposing Cronos (Saturn) by his brothers Poseidon (Neptune) and Hades (Pluto). As with Uranus, I am assuming that these two planets were also named by someone in the know – in other words, these names are the ones used by the ancients at the time when the myths were first created. In that case, Hades as guardian of the Underworld may be interpreted as follows. As above, so below. The microcosm of the Earth as a juxtaposition of light and darkness has a macrocosmic counterpart. The dark area would thus correspond to deep space, and the light area would begin upon entry into the solar system, where the Sun begins to exert its influence. Hence Pluto the planet, marking the boundary between the two, acts like the doorman if not the guardian of the underworld. This marks Hades’ contribution to the demise of Cronos, which perhaps counterintuitively means bringing Saturn into the light of the Sun. Once you passed Hades/Pluto, Earth’s underworld (southern hemisphere) was also lit up half the time, by the Sun, and the world above discovered night, seeing stars and other planets for the first time.

The invention of TV. Think about it: this was huge. People lost the underworld as an almost mythical place in the back of beyond, and they gained the night sky in their own back yards. They discovered television: a slow mo soap opera as planetary gods interacted with each other against a rotating backdrop of fixed stars playing walk-on parts. Who were the myth-makers writing the script? They themselves were; and when they weren’t doing that, they would be discovering tele-vision of a different sort: remote viewing in their dreams. Sleeping and dreaming may not even have existed before this time. This may have been the mechanism that converted events in the heavens into hardwired archetypes in the human mind.

Channel hopping. So what we are looking at here is Sitchin’s scenario of an incoming planetary complex. But I am not interested in Sitchin, whose account soon diverges. He may be interpreting the Sumerian tablets correctly, for all I know; but since they are based on Annunaki disinformation, they have to be discounted at some stage. What I want to do here is look at Greek myth in terms of a dynamic situation taking the outer planets, as Sitchin does, in the reverse from usual order.

It was Bode (of Bode’s law of planetary spacing) who finally named Uranus, on the basis that Saturn being Jupiter’s father, Saturn’s father should come next. That is the inside-out approach, which no longer works in the case of Neptune and Pluto, brothers of Jupiter. Seeing this from the opposite perspective seems to work better, if we take precedence as meaning closeness to the Sun. We need to know that Cronos seems to have been behind the original Oedipus myth; on being told that one of his sons would depose him, in a vain attempt to escape his fate he took to swallowing them, notably Poseidon/Neptune and Hades/Pluto. This might be taken to mean Saturn the planet passed (overtook) them on its way into the solar system. Some damage would seem to be involved, such as Pluto’s orbit being disturbed, or Neptune tipping over onto its side. A similar fate was also reserved for Zeus, but he was smuggled away in the manner of Oedipus, Moses and Jesus; and Cronos was given a stone to swallow instead. He was later forced to spew out the swallowed Titans, indicating that the planets were not destroyed. Poseidon was later given mastery of the sea, which might well be related to sight of the watery aspect of Neptune by the passing Annunaki, according to Sitchin, and by passing humanity in my scenario.

The myth also gives an insight into what happened when Saturn approached Jupiter’s orbit. Cronos deposes Ouranos by castrating him with a sickle. This would mean that Saturn contrived to pass ahead of Uranus in the Sun’s pecking order, and likely did so by wielding the rotating crescent that David Talbott describes. Note that this crescent likely did not exist in earlier times outside the solar system but was simply activated when approaching the Sun. Again, the god is not destroyed, simply relegated. Note also how these stories of cosmic warfare among the gods is probably a human anthropomorphic account of the dramatic events in the heavens that accompanied the incursion of a brown dwarf system into the solar system (the above-mentioned soap opera). In other words, we are not talking about cosmic warfare at all, but about celestial mechanics. The fact that mythographers like Robert Graves view the myths as a potted history of the evolution of Greek civilization indicates that somehow celestial events have left their imprint on the workings of human society. The tendency here is to have the tail wagging the dog. We need to realize though that the myths did not arise from practices of kingship and succession; the myths arose from these celestial events, and societal institutions were spawned by the myths.

Moonraker. The next stage in that story is the arrival of Saturn in the vicinity of Jupiter’s orbit, which it may even have crossed at some point. Cronos was deposed by Zeus’s thunderbolts with help from Poseidon’s trident. Presumably the deposition involved several things: Saturn was stopped in its tracks and parked in an orbit between Jupiter and Uranus; very possibly one or more of its many moons was pulverized into what are now the rings (if we want to date it to a different time, we need to find another event as disturbing as a brush with Jupiter: unlikely?); and finally, this would likely be when Saturn was stripped of its three planetary satellites, Mars, Earth and Venus.

Speculating here, these three would have been pulled towards Jupiter’s orbit, and like modern deep space probes, given a slingshot boost to send them on their way into the inner solar system, where they would take up Bode’s law-compliant orbits on a first-come-first-served basis. Mars being so much smaller would get ahead of the others and arrive in the first available orbit; Earth being outermost would arrive second and take the Goldilocks orbit; Venus being closest to Saturn might take a little longer to become detached and end up getting fried on being forced too close to the Sun (rather like Icarus).

However, this picture was complicated by the presence of an existing planet (Tiamat?) inside Jupiter’s orbit. The late astronomer Tom van Flandern theorizes http://metaresearch.org/solar%20system/eph/eph2000.asp that, judging by its two very different hemispheres, Mars may have been the moon of an exploding planet: the side facing that planet was devastated while the other was left more or less intact. This is compatible with an incoming planet (Mars) coming too close, whether or not it was actually captured. Why a planet would explode at all may be more understandable in the light of having another two, larger planets also in the vicinity, with all three tugging in different directions on ‘Tiamat’. Note: I still need to watch Talbott’s video on Mars the lightning-scarred planet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRV1e5_tB6Y

Buy three, get one free. As a brief addendum to this scenario, we have the case of Mercury. Mercury could conceivably have been a part of the Saturn system on the other side of Saturn, where no one on Earth would necessarily have ever seen it. Either way, this hyperactive new neighbour gave rise to a major deity, Mercury/Hermes. (Conversely the two dots that David Talbott shows to be recurrent in the ancient iconography, and which he suggests are depictions of the plasma thunderbolt, could conceivably be moons of Saturn as seen in daylight, just as we can see the Moon in the daytime.) We hear stories of another planet or brown dwarf always on the far side of the Sun, where it can never be seen from Earth. This makes no sense as it stands; for one thing, you would need an Earth twin to mimic the Earth’s motion in this way; and for another, the mass of such an object would falsify the astronomical calculations that correctly predicted and led to the discovery of the outer planets. But the idea may be a throwback to something that actually happened when locked orbits were the rule.

Catastrophobia. In conclusion to this section, again, there is no need at this stage for an out-of-control civilization with too much destructive technology for its own good. Absent any evidence, that is just more myth. Nowadays of course, evidence does seem to be coming out for present-day cosmic warfare. But how we are to interpret that will inevitably be coloured by factoring in the major role played by ‘mere’ dysfunctional celestial mechanics. To that extent, we are dealing with what Barbara Hand Clow terms Catastrophobia (her book title): fear of future catastrophe based on past catastrophe. This string of cataclysms which likely happened in the past is obviously a one-off: Saturn and Co. arrived to stay, as opposed to the reported recurring visits of Nibiru. The above scenario suggests that no such recurrence is possible. In fact Clow’s own scenario of a supernova remnant she calls Phaethon (after another Greek myth) entering the solar system 11,000 years ago and leaving havoc in its wake, is very similar to Sitchin’s description of an early incursion by Nibiru. Likewise, Planet X may exist as a distant object circling the Sun over huge periods of time; it should be nothing to fear if Jupiter does act as I describe as a kind of gatekeeper protecting the inner solar system. This in fact is the conventional view of astronomers: Jupiter protects the inner solar system from incursions by Nibiru-sized objects. The fear of comets also dates back to the time when Venus developed a tail and her serpent hair turned her from a benevolent goddess into a dangerous Medusa. Likewise the fear of eclipses dates back to this mother of all eclipses that went so badly wrong.

S, M, XL. However, above and beyond the cosmic clashes, there are potentially four populations interacting here: alongside Earthlings, Martians, Venusians and Saturnians. Right there you likely have the three standard sizes of humanoid aliens, since an educated guess suggests that these Martians would be smaller than us, the Venusians about our size, and the Saturnians would be giants. The Golden Age ended when the same people who had been acting benevolently turned nasty on account of this course of events. This is worth bearing in mind: that lengthy Golden Age is our true common history that has been wiped from our memory by the trauma of this series of events. Would these ‘cousins’ (from the same system) be benevolent towards us? I should think so; indeed, I would expect that Saturn suffered least from the disaster and would doubtless do everything in its power to catch up with and keep an eye on the inhabitants of its erstwhile moons. This would quite possibly include establishing a monolith on our Moon. Remember, Arthur C. Clarke’s original 2001: a Space Odyssey novel involves Saturn, not Jupiter. Stanley Kubrick’s moving it to Jupiter, allegedly because he could not reproduce Saturn’s rings, was likely a lame excuse to hide another coverup. I’m sure he could have come up with some lovely rings.

The point here is that the ‘evil’ element is probably foreign to all the above groups and was brought in from outside at a time of weakened immunity, just as an individual suffering a physical injury is exposed to infection. The all-seeing eye in the triangle originated from this era of cataclysm, making it bad in the sense of accompanying disaster, but beyond that, there is nothing inherently evil in the sacred geometry of which the triangle and the circle are elements. Evil I see as the chronic inability to get over past trauma, in a word, catastrophobia. A single word to describe an antidote might be ‘joviality’, which etymologically is a state of mind produced under the influence of Jove/Jupiter.

By Jove I needed that! The subsequent supremacy of Jove/Jupiter/Zeus is presented in terms of his being given lordship of the sky when Poseidon becomes lord of the sea and Hades lord of the underworld. Hades and his underworld would begin to become irrelevant once solar daylight began to spread to all parts of planet Earth. Lordship of the sky on the other hand became a key role with the recent appearance of a star-studded sky, and the need to find one’s way around, notably by naming stars and constellations. This task must therefore have begun around the time when the Earth became detached from its local ‘sun’, Saturn, and since the job was given to Zeus, that would suggest this happened within the domain of Jupiter. So this is a watershed moment; this would be the period of darkness when the light of one ‘sun’ (Saturn) has only been dimly replaced with the other’s (the still distant Sun). There would be an undoubted tendency, faced with this so very different new situation, to deal with it in terms of the so stable and so familiar past. In other words, not only were stars not named mythically for illustrious earthlings, like some celestial hall of fame; the new skies were named after the previous system conjunct with Saturn.

Fishcakes. To understand just how ingrained the celestial configuration must have been, think of David Talbott’s mentioning of the scallop shell. The scallop shell as an attribute of Venus (all the way down to Botticelli’s Birth of Venus) comes through the lotus flower motif drawn by the EU plasma display when seen from a particular angle.



This is something rather more than a spiral shell reflecting the Fibonacci sequence in nature. It is like a 3D printout of a screenshot of the view from a unique vantage point, namely the Earth. And this has affected a life form that dates back millions of years, since you readily find fossil scallop shells. And it is qualitatively totally different from any human artefacts. You could conceivably fake every single human artefact that ever was: although highly unlikely, this is nonetheless theoretically possible in a way that a single living scallop in your hand cannot conceivably be fake.
http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgur...loDpoQ9QEILTAC

Now transpose this to the human mind originally fashioned in such an environment: to the extent that anything of this has survived, you are talking about a living fossil. Or, to change analogies, this is not mind control, or an implanted microchip: it is the brain’s hardwiring from exposure to that environment. Medieval and indeed 21st century pilgrims to Santiago de Compostela would rarely see beyond the Christian symbolism of the scallop shell to the truly ancient cosmic symbolism, which justifies the name of Compostela, meaning ‘starfield’ or why ‘The popular Spanish name for the astronomical Milky Way is El Camino de Santiago’. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camino_de_Santiago

Whether this insight is conscious or unconscious, it is what gives such power to Marcel Proust’s famous madeleine episode; the taste of this little cake brings vivid memories of being with his mother flooding back, not as mere memories but as living in sheer bliss in the present moment. The underside of this madeleine, he says, is grooved like a scallop shell (appropriately in French called a ‘coquille saint-jacques’, a St James shell). This then goes all the way back to that mother of all mothers, including Mother Earth. Incidentally, these little cakes look like flying saucers; or alternatively they look rather like Saturn with its rings. Maybe, then, the UFO archetype was also imprinted on the human brain at a time shortly after the split when Saturn still loomed large in the sky with its (possibly brand new) rings.
http://www.madmacnyc.com/history-of-madeleines
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/aut...eleine-wagner/




One final thought on this subject: as Mark’s gospel tells us and de Santillana and von Dechend’s Hamlet’s Mill (Godine, p. 225) reminds us, St James had a twin brother, John, and together they were called ‘Boanerges’, meaning Sons of Thunder. Twins and thunder: this adds a mythical element to James and John (see below) – which is not to say they did not exist historically in the time of Jesus. They may well have done, just as the scallop’s mythical component does not prevent it from it being deliciously nourishing seafood, or the madeleine’s mythical component does not prevent it from providing belated sustenance to a writer undernourished in the womb during the Franco-Prussian War (when top Parisian restaurants resorted to exotic meats taken from the zoo).
.../...

[araucaria]

.../...

Star/ship enterprise. So, given the human mind hardwired in this way, back when things were in the process of changing, it is only to be expected that a brand new open starlit sky would be seen somewhat in the same terms as the near perpetual Saturnian daylight that had gone before. The process would be kickstarted with very little effort of the imagination required when the rotating crescent of Saturn was discovered to affect the Moon. Then looking towards the North Pole where this process originated, earthlings would discover a formation of seven stars doing something eerily similar to Saturn’s crescent every night, with the Big Dipper scooping round the pole. If it was not seen as a boat, this was probably only because it was the Milky Way that appeared like a river, on which the Maya for example had their canoe.

Hamlet’s quill. The discovery of precession seems to be a case of catastrophobia, i.e. caused by the past event, not heralding future disaster. Hamlet’s Mill has a great deal to say about precession, but seemingly very little about why it should be so crucially important. John Major Jenkins in Maya Cosmogenesis 2012 (written in 1998) describes how the Maya relied for a time on movements of the Big Dipper, called Seven Macaw, until precession toppled Seven Macaw off its perch and they began looking to the galactic centre for astronomical guidance. I would need to reread this material, but it seems to me that once that move was made, everything became a reworking of the original polar situation, of which the Maya, being so far south, would have seen with only extremely peripheral vision. For example, Jenkins’ search for a Jupiter-Venus-moon syzygy (triple conjunction) to explain the birth of the ‘Hero Twins’ recounted in the Popol Vuh would appear to be an anachronism, since the twins are elsewhere an aspect of the two bull horns at the top of the pillar coming down from Mars (more below in the following paragraph).



The inference is therefore that the constellations were described and named after the features of the original Saturn system. For example, as I mentioned earlier, the mountain or pillar topped by a crescent was seen as a horned bull or in terms of twin pillars. Hence you have no less than three horned animals in the zodiac: Taurus the bull, Capricorn the goat and Aries the ram. The same configuration might also be the basis for Libra the scales. And of course the twin pillars also determine Gemini the twins – and Pisces is a pair of fish. I shan’t labour the point, but one final suggestion is that the Virgo constellation is an offshoot of the central feature, the goddess Venus as all-generous mother and everything else.

What this means is that, as I suggested just now for John Major Jenkins, mythologists are going to get confused. Hence for example many of the ideas originally linked to Saturn and its crescent will be connected with the Moon, leading to all kinds of dead ends. Or you find de Santillana and von Dechend (Hamlet’s Mill, p. 244) puzzling over Virgil’s prophecy of Virgo and the reign of Saturn returning for a new Golden Age at the dawn of the Age of Pisces, now ending: it may be that even Virgil himself did not understand that the Virgo in question was not the constellation but the planet Venus in its original configuration.

Eyeless in Gaza. An even bigger example of the confusion is the myth of Aphrodite-Venus’s adultery with Ares-Mars, caught in a net by her lawful husband Hephaistos-Vulcan, god of fire and smithery. De Santillana and von Dechend see this as some Mars-Venus conjunction taking place in the constellation of Orion the hunter, and more precisely in the Pleiades, the hunter’s net. On the other hand, they also link Orion to Mars, and both to the biblical Samson; for example, both Samson and Orion are blind and Virgil talks of ‘blind Mars’ too. This makes nonsense of a flagrante delicto myth since Mars (the planet) is netted by Mars (the constellation). Also Mars/Venus conjunctions are two a penny in frequency and presumably importance. So what is going on here? It makes much more sense if we take Hephaistos the benevolent god of fire as the long-term legitimate partner of Venus during the Golden Age, and governing the plasma effects seen in that era, i.e. Mars before he became the god of war.

How and when this happened is recorded in the Samson story. Delilah blinds him and cuts off his hair. This hair in Talbott’s analysis is already more an attribute of Venus, which is perhaps just another way of describing the same thing: the female deity depriving the god of his power – Mars beginning to move away from Venus. When Samson subsequently pulls down the twin pillars of his own palace, this is a clear reference to the collapse of the Mars-Venus configuration.

Hence in a night sky commemorating the long past Golden Age, any Mars-Venus conjunction at all would recall their former stable ‘marriage’, but in the negative light of ‘playing away from home’. Thus there is really no contradiction in having the virtuous Aphrodite-Venus caught by her husband Hephaistos-Mars in bed with her lover Ares-Mars the god of war. On the contrary, the tale of adultery highlights the drop in moral standards that coincided with this catastrophe. Hence, if the whole of humanity is generally oversexed, it is not so much because men are from mars and women from Venus as because the entire race was for so long so close to both planets.

Hell is other people. However, not everyone and not everything has gone to hell in a handbasket – you and I are living proof that the well-being of humankind is an absolute priority for some or indeed the majority, and that this somehow involves a bigger picture than we thought.

So let’s try and put ourselves in the shoes of the rulers of Saturn down the ages. We may probably suppose that at the time of the breakup, there were representatives of each of the four groups who became marooned on each planet. Hence if Mars and Venus become virtually uninhabitable at an early stage, their species ought to have survived elsewhere. The rulers of Saturn are not necessarily superior beings in any way: simply, being so much larger and having been stopped in its tracks so much sooner, their planet presumably came through the catastrophe relatively unscathed compared to the rest.

We know that, if only for demographic reasons, an all-male or all-female population is not independently viable. Now let us suppose that for some other reason the co-existence of these four races as an extended family is necessary for their ultimate survival. In that case, there would be two objectives to work towards. First, some plan would need to be worked out and implemented in order to achieve reunification. And secondly, in the meantime, contingency measures would need to be taken to ensure survival in what continues to be a foreign and therefore somewhat difficult environment; it presents two kinds of danger: first, remnants of the original catastrophe are still around in the form of bits of planet (comets and asteroids) such as likely did for Mars. Secondly, the Sun not being our sun, it might do for us, maybe not the way it did for Venus, but in some other way connected with the adoptive nature of the relationship. So for example, if say this is the cause of abnormal volcanic and earthquake activity, it may mean that various attempts to alleviate the problem, including chemtrails, are well-meaning (including the secrecy) but inadequate.

The other danger facing humanity is of course the aggravation of the disease or madness affecting a sizeable section of the population. It seems we have been here a couple of times before. However it may be a Groundhog Day learning curve for the watchers on Saturn, whose own civilization may have escaped the reboots on Earth.

The question then is: what is the plan? what possibly perverse-looking aspects does its implementation involve? And how does humanity fit in with this plan? To begin with, let’s take a quick look at what these Saturnians might be like. I have suggested that they could be giants such as we hear about, their size being as it were proportional to that of their home planet. Also, if as I am suggesting, Saturn is Nibiru, then the Saturnians would be the Annunaki of the Sumerians tablets. These two data elements fit together, since the Annunaki gods are depicted on cylinder seals as being at least at tall when seated as the humans standing before them.

How far then have we strayed from Sitchin’s Nibiru scenario? Not very far. He/the tablets simply add(s) a cyclical Nibiru to the one-off Saturn story, doubtless in an attempt to show the Annunaki in control of a situation of which they are in reality no more in control than earthlings. It is not very difficult to comply with a purported 3600 year visiting cycle (the shar) when you are hanging out in the Sun’s own backyard on a permanent basis. There may have been some orbital reason for this particular periodicity: convenient windows for coming here from Saturn for a people who would not necessarily be comfortable travelling these much longer distances than before. One puzzling aspect of Sitchin’s story is indeed the relatively primitive nature of Annunaki rocketry – barely more sophisticated than 1960s earth technology.

The horns of a dilemma. This is one insight into the frailty of these so-called gods. The catastrophe was theirs as much as ours, and they might possibly have as much difficulty coping with the attendant pain, fear and insecurity as us. The problem facing them was the same: this new issue of time. It posed a dilemma: how to be forward-looking (progressive) without being backward-looking (reactionary) when the latter option was so massively tempting, given such a glorious and stable past and such a dangerous and uncertain future. Time only began when Saturn entered the solar system and its solar orbit; so fittingly, its circularity would become apparent; in other words, travelling forward equates to returning to a previous point, although an additional spiral vector means that there will always also be a progression.

Hence one stable past branched out into two or more possible futures, unsurprisingly, since that is the very nature of time. The split was also both spatial – Saturn had become separated from its moons – and qualitative (mental) – the different family groups had become separated too. The way forward therefore involved one main choice: which element was to be prioritized: the ‘hardware’ (an artificial home planetary system), or the ‘wetware’ (emphasis to be placed on the people, e.g. maybe by developing a spiritual content that was previously somewhat lacking).

Perhaps inevitably, it seems that this dilemma was never resolved: both options were to be explored by two factions going their separate ways. Was this a bad thing? Not necessarily. Seeing why is possibly the hardest thing we need to understand. The original dilemma itself is morally neutral. Do you seek to restore a planetary environment in which all populations can flourish as before, or do you attempt to adjust to the given environment, and in a sense tame it in order to reach the same harmonious goal that way? There would be of course still only one ultimate goal, but several possible paths would open up at every turn.

Take the garden of Eden for example. What we see are two levels of advancement, Enki and Enlil providing leadership for primitive humans. Enlil has taken the ‘hardware’ option and needing a docile workforce he proves a hard taskmaster. Enki adopts a more compassionate approach. So while both are likely working towards the ‘salvation’ of humanity, there is already a tendency to lose the necessary balance and overlook the human element as somehow inferior or unimportant – which is possibly the very source of ‘evil’: the original ‘sin’ was committed, not by, but against, humanity. I am talking here about the aspect that we can potentially do something about, as opposed to ‘demonic forces’ on which we have no handle; we need to find out to what extent these influences may be psychic phenomena induced by failure to cope with catastrophe or seemingly intractable problems. What started out as cosmic upheaval dramatized as Olympian gods in conflict has evolved all the way to star wars and secret space programs. If the latter are any more real than the former seemed at the time, then it really is time to stop manifesting this trauma as reality.

In an ever-changing world, this is one thing that has not changed one iota, all the way up to the pope’s pronouncement in the last few days:

“The real poor are revealed as those who refuse to see themselves as [humble]. They consider themselves rich, but they are actually the poorest of the poor. This is because they are slaves to sin, which leads them to use wealth and power not for the service of God and others, but to stifle within their hearts the profound sense that they too are only poor beggars.
The greater their power and wealth, the more this blindness and deception can grow”
He also touches upon the world's seeming fascination with money and the "ideologies of monopolising thought and technoscience" which help "reduce man to raw material to be exploited". http://i100.independent.co.uk/articl...nt--by7u0moz6x

An Apple a day. Enki the serpent takes issue with Enlil’s approach. When his brother considers man as a finished product that leaves much to be desired (which is the old timeless view that no longer applies), he sees man as a work in progress, having huge potential, and therefore to be nurtured as a good investment. But when the argument is over knowledge, oddly the roles are reversed. Enki says ‘Have an apple’ (from the tree of knowledge). Enlil says ‘No, you must toil: grow your tree, grow your apples and only then do you get to eat them. Rinse and repeat. No easy disclosure: you grow into your knowledge.’ The debate is then over where this dynamic development will stand in relation to the static model several millennia down the line – such as right now.

The fact is that so many apples have been grown and eaten (and Apple computers bought and used) that humanity has smartened up no end, and the latest news is that earthling black ops are now improving on ‘alien’ spaceship designs, which it turns out were not so very far ahead. The fact that we are now in a coming-of-age position to make a useful contribution was just as likely to draw attention as playing with nuclear matches. This may or may not have been planned, or expected or foreseen. One notable unforeseen element was this: earlier man, the one who lived through the Golden Age, received this brain imprint of the catastrophic change which he passed on to Adam and Eve, and this trauma produced an unexpected sensitivity in the new species, which from the word go therefore, failed to act as the robotic worker advertised in the sales brochure. In other words, what made man unexpectedly different was not his being an angel, but his being a beast, a savage with uncommonly powerful instincts and fears, possibly derived from a closer than usual grounding with the planet itself.

Forward to the past. Now for some speculation as to how the ‘hardware’ solution is proceeding. This solution as I have imagined it places the emphasis on reconstructing the Saturn-Venus-Mars-Earth planetary conjunction, which can then be populated with whoever is available. Since the original setup was outside the solar system in interstellar space, the closest approximation to this might be the building of a glorified international space station with large numbers of huge craft capable of embarking on such an odyssey. This seems to fit in with reports of numerous huge craft in various parts of the solar system, as well as the unfathomable scale of the black ops space program.

Hence if that were the purpose, then any talk of taking ET home, or any other star-based alien civilization would have to be either disinformation or a diversionary tactic, or at least open to misinterpretation, since the very ideas of home and a home star are off-topic in the present instance. While obviously all kinds of alien agendas may be proceeding, they would be doing so against the backdrop of the basic situation outlined her, or something like it.

If then a huge space fleet is being built for assembly into a constellation that is not going anywhere in particular but simply for navigating in timeless empty space, then this might put a whole new complexion on what is going on, and has been going on for a very long time. If this has been the end goal of millennia of enslavement of the human race for as long as it remained in ignorance of this end purpose, the issue of non-consultation finally comes home to roost.

All the time in the world. The ‘wetware’ approach to the human predicament which meanwhile produced sufficient enlightenment at least to begin to play an active role in the process, itself suggests that there is no place for such people in this kind of ‘hardware’-based project, and as a corollary that such a project is doomed to fail because it fails to factor in this position. You cannot see a project through smoothly from start to finish when one of its main components is based so largely on potential, as the Earth human is/was. We are not machines: that is the crucial element that makes Artificial Intelligence the real enemy – and man a loose cannon.

Here again, the time factor has a role to play. If time, or rather the perception of time, begins when in orbit, then this perception of time may well be different in Earth orbit than in Saturn orbit, which is 248 of our years. In other words, one orbit might be a single unit of time called a year, which on Saturn would last 248 times longer than on earth. While we don’t know if there is any truth to this idea, we do find a similar effect in heart rates. Mammals tend to have lives in proportion to their heart rates, as if the short life of a mouse and the long life of an elephant, with man somewhere in between, all boil down to a comparable number of heart beats.

The differential is twofold. Saturnians themselves will have suffered from the catastrophic change; even for them, time would have started to fly dreadfully fast, and the phenomenon would have been 250 times worse on Earth for visiting giants – no need for poisonous atmospheres or anything of that sort to make the place inhospitable.

It may be, also, that our impressions of time accelerating steadily are linked to growth of some kind, obviously not physical at this stage – or maybe humanity is just getting old. Seen in this light, what might be needed is a (possibly) larger planet on a longer orbit. This is another formulation of the problem that the ‘hardware’ option would be designed to remedy.

Family bonds. So, what made the Golden Age so golden? Well, it might have been golden only in a very cosy sort of way, the way you might look back on childhood cocooning with a nostalgia that overlooks all the excitement of intervening growth. Earthlings, even back then – being in orbit around the giant planet – would have been living faster than Saturnians, and functioning naturally therefore at a higher speed, would have been more flexible in adjusting to new conditions.

To use an analogy: what seems to have happened is like a couple saving for years to buy a suitable home, and putting their children into slave labour to help finance that project. Meanwhile, however, for the children, the squalid housing is home, and this non-childhood is all they are going to get. So, by the time the parents are ready to move, they have grown up, are ready to rebel and move away to lead their own lives; What I’m saying here is that when Shane describes the situation as a dysfunctional family (see my posthere), then the Saturn/EU narrative would be a possible explanation in terms of creating the material conditions for such a scenario to play out. That is an unlikely and unexpected conclusion to reach, and one that many on this forum may not want to hear. But remember, the original theory started from an interpretation of the hard evidence of ancient texts and iconography which went on to ‘predict’ the science of EU theory, which is astrophysical theory testable in the laboratory. And these musings started out from that, without worrying about what anyone wants to hear.

The notion of the (extended) family is one that applies to a group operating at a whole range of individual time rates or frequencies, which is how nurture equates with tolerance. Understandably, with the splitting of the Saturn system, this was no longer feasible, and earth humans would eventually be ‘vibrating’ at an altogether different rate, except for those individuals with whom contact had been maintained. The tolerance level went completely ‘out of spec’ and consequently, humans might be seen (no moral judgement involved) as useless rejects.

This is a fairly mechanistic way of describing what some describe in spiritual terms and others in moral terms. It may be useful, however, to remain neutral in all this – which might lead one to envisage the following situation.

Tolerance. It would then appear that the plan to extricate these ‘fallen’ races (which had fallen into the solar system) was perfectly valid in the time and context. The secrecy that later developed into full-blown conspiracy was originally just an expedient to get an immature partner (humans) to make their contribution to a plan they would not comprehend. Had we been as smart back then as we are now, things would surely have been very different. However, the really smart way of being smart might be to show tolerance and understanding. (See my posthere).

The wise option might then be to accept that the space fleets as a bona fide initiative that has been brought about by inflicting incredible hardship on so many for so long – but bona fide nonetheless, and therefore, instead of seeking to criminalize and ultimately persecute the earth human faction within this group, why not encourage them and wish them well in this enterprise, provided an end is in sight.

In a sense, it would be a mistake to talk of a breakaway civilization if the space fleet has been all along the official policy of a space-faring race; from these people’s viewpoint, the real breakaway civilization is the one formed by the recalcitrant stay-at-homes on planet Earth – these including both aware people who deliberately choose this planet, and the rest to whom it has never occurred that there may be an alternative. We could simply waive any idea of retribution and let the others on their way provided we can put a rapid stop to trashing the planet and destroying its inhabitants before it is too late. Of course, they could be a major problem is the solar system has already been sold to a new owner waiting in the wings.

Resilience. The discrepancy between the two sensibilities would have been heightened by the fact that for Earth, unlike Venus and Mars, and probably even Saturn as well, the Sun proved a fairly adequate adoptive star, and humans being adaptable enough to survive in various conditions of extreme heat and cold for example have also proved able to survive the conditions of severe exploitation imposed on them from outside. Another major factor is Gaia herself, with whom the aforementioned animal part surviving in man maybe provided an unexpectedly strong connection. Possibly the attachment to a gas giant like Saturn is altogether a less fusional relationship; this is at least implied in the apparent willingness to resort to machines (spaceships). Perhaps then ‘reach for the stars’ is exactly the wrong message for most earth humans at this time.

Resilience has been the major human quality that perhaps no one saw coming. Resilience is also translatable in terms of population. After all the hindrances that have been thrown at human development, instead of having a dwindling community, as is normal in such circumstances, we have thrived to the tune of a 7 billion population, which in itself poses a new problem. Given that very few Venusians and Martians survived the initial catastrophe, and possibly not many Saturnians either, this figure completely skewers the interplanetary coalition in a way that massive depopulation by whatever means, seen by many as mass genocide, may have seemed the only option. At the very least, we can begin to see the rationale behind an ideal such as the maximum half billion carved on the Georgia guidestones.

In this story, resilience means an ability to adjust to the here and now, as opposed to harking back to a golden past and working towards achieving a similarly golden future (the heaven promised by religion), thereby putting the present on the back burner, when strictly speaking it is all we really have. For a race that is a work in progress, this gold standard is the opposite of the learning curve that enables us to improve. This is the ideological disagreement that has opened up and needs to be addressed without further conflict.

Maybe then this breakaway civilization has still not broken away because humanity has had a feedback effect to the point of making what seemed like a good idea appear with hindsight not nearly so good. It could be that the earthlings who have gone along with the plan have been seen, at least by some, while maybe having the best brains, not to be representative of all that is best in humanity, and that a breakaway group acknowledging this situation has been furthering the ‘wetware’ agenda for quite some time. Conceivably, both projects could go ahead, giving some credence to Dolores Cannon’s two-earth scenario, this second agenda making the most of the human and terrestrial resources discarded by the first. There is no reason why the two projects should not both go ahead in different locations using different personnel. But this inevitable parting of the ways has to happen now, before that major item of ‘wetware’, namely Mother Earth herself, is destroyed.

Jupiter-Saturn transits. What I am saying here seems to be covered by astrology, where the struggle between Zeus and Cronos continues, with Jupiter standing between Saturn and Mars, Earth and Venus, her erstwhile moons, if that is what they are. Incidentally, this would put a fresh light on the notion that the statue of St Peter in the Vatican is actually Jupiter (Zeus). Zeus/Deus is actually the pre-Christian supreme being, and the name Jupiter is derived from Deus pater (god the father). Hence this is not so much the ‘abomination of desolation’ as a prime example of the Christian takeover of paganism. Also the name Peter might be derived from Pater rather than Petra (rock), making the statue a visual pun: a statue of Ju-Peter. Such a presence ought to be reassuring, especially for anyone who takes the Saturn/Satan equivalence seriously. All this means is that the theological battle can be seen as a reflection of the cosmic upheaval of the hypothetical Saturn scenario, for which further valuable corroboration can come from astrology if it can also be shown to generate the specific properties of each planetary influence: why do the planets have the characteristics they have? One aspect is to do with their respective distances and orbital speeds. The main reason however would then be their interactions within the electric universe. Here is Robert Hand, in Planets in Transit:

Jupiter Conjunct Saturn
During this transit you will confront your own inhibitions and self-restrictions, as well as the restrictions placed upon you by circumstances. You may wish to break free of them in order to enlarge your scope of activity, so you can go places and do things that you have never been able to do before. On the other hand, you may choose to grow within the structure of restriction in your life, using that very structure to enlarge your life. It can go either way, depending very much upon your temperament. And neither way is better as a general rule. It depends entirely on what is appropriate in terms of your own life. (p. 294)
Saturn Conjunct Jupiter
The structured nature of Saturn, which demands that conditions be met and obligations be fulfilled, is not very compatible with the unrestrained exuberance of Jupiter. Yet together they can play a valuable role in your life. Saturn gives you discipline to make a solid structure of your life. Without Saturn’s influence, Jupiter can symbolize wild unrestrained growth, and gross overextension of your energy. Jupiter is often characterized by waste and inefficiency, because you feel there is always enough of everything, even when there is isn’t. (p. 344)

This is a good place to stop: more or less where we started – with an empirical theory and the science potentially capable of backing it up. The idea is not by any means to make a complete presentation; a cosmological overview in 10,000 words is hardly going to do that. Everything said and most of all everything left unsaid is open for discussion.

By coincidence, Santiago de Compostela is in the news just now. A wealthy couple with a hugely gifted 12-year-old Asian girl they adopted as a baby have received lengthy jail terms for slowly murdering her with medical drugs. At the macrocosmic level we have been talking about, this seems to be precisely the situation that we need to prevent.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...unta-fong-yang

[giovonni]

Thanks ~ that's a masterpiece of considering Araucaria !

And you have obviously pondered upon all this cosmology very hard and well ...

For me the creative/setting of our host solar system seems almost purposefully godlike in nature ... And your disclaimer below fits well as to the clog we are all grappling with in fulfilling the inevitable universal cycle wheel we find ourselves upon ...

The point here is that the ‘evil’ element is probably foreign to all the above groups and was brought in from outside at a time of weakened immunity, just as an individual suffering a physical injury is exposed to infection. The all-seeing eye in the triangle originated from this era of cataclysm, making it bad in the sense of accompanying disaster, but beyond that, there is nothing inherently evil in the sacred geometry of which the triangle and the circle are elements. Evil I see as the chronic inability to get over past trauma, in a word, catastrophobia. A single word to describe an antidote might be ‘joviality’, which etymologically is a state of mind produced under the influence of Jove/Jupiter.

We are obviously hardwired to cosmic patterns and cycles of catastrophe ...

But as a close friend keeps telling me ... It's All Good !

[araucaria]

Posted by giovonni (here)
Thanks ~ that's a masterpiece of considering Araucaria !

And you have obviously pondered upon all this cosmology very hard and well ...

For me the creative/setting of our host solar system seems almost purposefully godlike in nature ... And your disclaimer below fits well as to the clog we are all grappling with in fulfilling the inevitable universal cycle wheel we find ourselves upon ...

The point here is that the ‘evil’ element is probably foreign to all the above groups and was brought in from outside at a time of weakened immunity, just as an individual suffering a physical injury is exposed to infection. The all-seeing eye in the triangle originated from this era of cataclysm, making it bad in the sense of accompanying disaster, but beyond that, there is nothing inherently evil in the sacred geometry of which the triangle and the circle are elements. Evil I see as the chronic inability to get over past trauma, in a word, catastrophobia. A single word to describe an antidote might be ‘joviality’, which etymologically is a state of mind produced under the influence of Jove/Jupiter.

We are obviously hardwired to cosmic patterns and cycles of catastrophe ...

But as a close friend keeps telling me ... It's All Good !

Thank you giovonni. One thing that doesn’t enter my analysis is When. If anything the question of timelines is getting stretched out even further. Things are both more ancient and more recent than we thought. That’s fine by me. History is not about dates.

It does seem that getting sucked in seems to be the way of the universe – so we might as well get used to being suckers As you say, it is all good, and like teasing a child, it can all be good fun... up to a point. It’s called entering into the spirit of things, and since we’re here, we only hurt ourselves by claiming we didn’t sign up for this.

Given that it is taking us for ever to come to terms with this little local event, we really do need to get the hang of this routine before our big galactic showdown with the Great Attractor: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1045333