Do ETs exist?

[Justplain]

Indigopete, i can not understand your logic in brushing off the evidence cited. Clifford Stone's testimony is conclusive, he saw little green men in crashed space craft. The disclosure project had witness testimony of those seeing photos of buildings on the dark side of the moon and spacecraft that were being airbrushed out of NASA photos. Mojo in Avalon has a library of ufo videos. The list goes on and on. But to you this is just worthless secondhand hearsay. I find your position undefendable.

Also, your own assumptions about our incarnating in this world is based on what proof? Certainly there's no more proof of our incarnating multiple times in this universe than there is of ET's being here. Also, our current scientific dogma doesn't take seriously the reincarnation subject because there is no scientific explanation. So why do you?

Of course, i am expecting you to counter with some double standard of evidence that you will allow to prove reincarnation but not the ET presence.

So with that, i choose to accept the evidence give by honest, sincere and credible witnesses. You can go back to your NASA spoonfed fantasy and believe that swamp gas explains the ufo phenomenon.

[Mike]

The ufo phenomena is a universal experience Pete. Millions of people all over the world have experienced some form of it. It may not be as universal as you'd like, but thats the problem with assumptions..especially with something as unpredicatable as ET's.

It is a little ironic that you so easily acknowledge the existence of reincarnation and non dimensional existences - 2 concepts that are easily on par with interstellar ET's in the "impossible to prove" category - but are so quick to dismiss visits from aliens from other star systems. why?


It's much easier for me to believe the countless testimonies of ufo contact than to disbelieve them. There is indeed overwhelming evidence suggesting the existence of ufo's, if one has done their research. It is utterly undeniable.

What we don't know is this: where they have come from? We simply assume theyre from the stars. A mistake? Yeah..maybe

You make alot of good points Pete. I'm not willing to completely write off interstellar ufo's..but its always been my belief that the majority of the phenomena is native to this planet. its always been here. I tend to side with John Keel and his "ultraterrestrial" hypothesis. It just makes more sense to me. But to dogmatically write off the idea of interstellar ufo's visiting earth makes little sense to me.

The only position that does make sense, to me, given what we as a species have experienced of "ufo's", is one of humility and open mindedness. My feeling is that this phenomena is infinitely more complex and layered than any of us can possibly imagine.

[Eram]

Hi indigopete,

I like your question, but I can't help to see some points in your logic that puzzle me.
You seem to make some assumptions to the probabilities of physical travel over long distances, such as many light years that might prove to be premature.
We simply do not have all the facts to ascertain whether or not it is possible to do it, so why jump to conclusions?
Perhaps there are ways to solve such a problem that are within the boundaries of physical laws. (portals perhaps?)

Also, you assign material qualities to physical life (rightfully so), but somehow remove those qualities from disincarnated life.
Why?
If there's life after physical death, isn't it much more probable that there are material aspects to that life as well (of a non physical nature)? .. and therefore earth (planet) bound as well?

Any way, how about all the art, mythology and stories from before WW2 where there's mention of UFO's and non human life forms?



There's too much of that to simply discard of it as some sort of insignificant anomalies.

Just the fact that there might be some sort of spin coming from tptb about alien invasions or something similar does not automatically rule out the possibility of real ET life forms visiting earth does it?

[thunder24]

well what about break away civilizations from the past... if one is born off planet but parents from earth, are they not considered alien?

[mojo]

I hope one day you witness "them." Eyewitness testimony can be offered, but totally understand seeing is the only answer for some. Even with contact it didnt go as expected because always ended up being the bystander. It would have been awesome to go on-board, travel and meet them up close. If being honest with myself, it's still a part of what motivates me, maybe having the chance to go deeper after "seeing"... Didnt get all the answers I was looking for either. But, actually seeing other lifeforms, what else could one hope for? It's something you can never forget afterwards and like myself would have a difficult time walking away from, even after 7 years. It's almost a double edged sword though and could list a few negatives easy...and so would highly recommend people contact others that resonate with your own belief in helping to find the answers. Guess you could also go solo, it was that way for me but hindsight being 20-20, would have done it differently. Would have loved to gotten the insight.

[shaberon]

This may seem like a value judgement or bias; it probably is.

Reincarnation doesn't mesh very well as being related to the question. It's an axiomatic basis for spiritual development. Because we are not very spiritually developed, our psyches are rather weak.

On the other hand, the ET or any other objective question, has nothing to do with spiritual development. The way we deal with objective or worldly questions gives us examples of the weakness of the psyche; which could be generalized as either too sensitive to impressions, or too limited to receive them.

By being too sensitive, that would imply that a person who spoke the truth of an ET encounter had been "under a spell", or that their psyche had wrapped "something" into a form. By being too limited, would be an utter refusal to admit any such thing is possible.

UFOs don't equal ETs. There are a lot more reports of strange flying craft, by thousands, than of encounters. Their existence seems fairly well established, but it could just as well be terrestrial phenomena.

I tend to be skeptical about it, and almost non chalant, like if it became an obvious fact, it would be a statistic like finding another kind of fish that's been there all along.

[indigopete]

Posted by Justplain (here)
Indigopete, i can not understand your logic in brushing off the evidence cited. Clifford Stone's testimony is conclusive, he saw little green men in crashed space craft

He saw “little green men” isn’t the same thing as seeing an “ET”.

This is what Im trying to point out. Everybody’s brainwashed with Hollywood concepts of what extra terrestrial contact would look like. It’s a kind of Mikey Mouse portrayal that bears no relation to the reality of inter stellar existence. I realise it’s difficult to see it that way if one is the subject of such brainwashing onesself - “hey this guy saw ET’s so they must be here” - but if you sit down and really think about it for a few years the illusion eventually washes off.

Posted by Mike (here)
The ufo phenomena is a universal experience Pete. Millions of people all over the world have experienced some form of it. It may not be as universal as you'd like, but thats the problem with assumptions..especially with something as unpredicatable as ET's.

What have they experienced ? Do you actually know first hand of anyone who’s physically travelled to another planet and back ? Have you ever experienced it yourself ? Has anyone on this planet ?

Have a look around you - at the unbelievable diversity of species that surrounds our existence. Where do you think that diversity comes from ? Those ARE the aliens, right here under your nose and they didn’t get here in spaceships. The idea of interstellar transport in a single lifetime is a metaphor for reality but it is not reality. You are here, on this Planet. When your existence is contextualised in universal timescales, you are just as alien to it as the “little green men” and so is every other species.

Yet you got here somehow and it wasn’t in a disk-shaped craft.

Posted by Mike (here)
It is a little ironic that you so easily acknowledge the existence of reincarnation and non dimensional existences - 2 concepts that are easily on par with interstellar ET's in the "impossible to prove" category - but are so quick to dismiss visits from aliens from other star systems. why?

I don’t dismiss “visits from aliens” at all. I’m just saying we are them. They don’t move around in material vehicles and it’s not difficult to arrive at that conclusion if you take off the Hollywood goggles for a minute.

The universe is holographic. It isn’t like some kind of big 3-D space that you can jump around from one point to the other as if you’re in a big hall. That’s only possible at the most tiny of of scales such as that in which we live our daily lives.

If you want to see aliens, look out the window or visit a jungle. You’ll learn more than standing idly with your jaw on the floor waiting for NASA to present the next chapter in the Hollywood fantasy

[Cidersomerset]

Although one has to keep an open mind about such mind blowing topics,
I remain quite sceptical about the whole alien-UFO phenomenon.

All I can say from all the dots I've connected over the last few decades from
our solar system being the only known one with planets going around its
sun to thousands exo planets projected to be billions of them that if we are
unique it would be very odd imo.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...oldilocks-zone...

From that premise/speculation there are all the stories, myths , legends
right up to all the witness statements , abuductions , sighting and the
101 topics we discuss in the UFO/ET part of the alternate research
community. Are ET's real ? I have not seen or spoken to one to my
knowledge ? but that applies to a lot of things .

As for Joseph Farrells and others views and research , they make
compelling arguments , but it does not feel quite right but who
knows ?....Certainly I think the NAZI could of developed UFO tech
from their alleged interaction with a race from Aldebaran. But
there is so much information about ET's , inter dimensionals and
other entities thoughout history it would be surpising if it is all
down to human imagination, though earlier earth based high tech
civilisations may have risen and fallen in antiquity like Atlantis ?
Also future us visiting from the future is another possibility as
speculated by some like Dan Burish.

Though as Ion says we are all 'wonderfull human creators'...
Or we could be living in a matrix ? or sailing thru the universe
on the back of a 'flat' earth disc world resting on four elephants
on the back of a giant Turtle ...LOL ( That is a joke,as I watched
the Terry Pratchet movie going postal the other night...


I have done so many threads that have connected dots as I said it
all points to me ET exists . But I personally cannot verify or prove it
only go by what others have researched and reported....

a few recent ones,for anyone looking in..

Buzzsaw: Anunnaki History and Alien Gods Revealed with Gerald Clark... Planet X Orbit Leak Project
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...t-Leak-Project

Ep. 453 FADE to BLACK Jimmy Church w/ Linda Moulton Howe: Earth Files
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...we-Earth-Files

New ET and Nazi UFOs Whistleblower William Tompkins (now 92 yrs)
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...s--now-92-yrs-

Not so recent...
XCon 2005 - Charles Hall - The Tall Whites - ET Experiences in the Nevada Desert

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...-Nevada-Desert

[Cidersomerset]

This is synchronistic in some respects I posted this on Giovanis
thread for the Jon Rappaport segment which starts 32 mins in.
He is talking about the internet and mentions that Jimmy was
talking about UFO's at the beginning of the show. I just listened
to it to see what he was saying and he is reflecting the state of
Ufology and some of it is relevant here I think ? its only a 10
minute summery of his current thoughts as he sees it.


Starts approx. 15mins to approx. 26 mins in

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=n-5odtqW_Do

Published on 13 May 2016


Another Thursday...another FADERNIGHT...John Rappoport joins us with
his No More Fake News Room and he discusses the internet...as only he can.
This is an amazing presentation...then we take calls from around the world...
and we give away a bunch of T Shirts to first time callers...very cool.

[Agape]

Good thinking Pete but typically naive where it comes to judging phenomena you've never experienced yourself . But please , do not blame you or me or anyone else for 'inexperience' .
It's simple as claiming something does not exist just because it's not accessible to everyone on this planet therefor it can not exist .
Such as interstellar travel and so forth .

Todays physical theories and technical achievements and your conclusions are based on hundred or two centuries of technical revolution . If you were to introduce the idea of airplane to people of 15th century or showed them your computer they'd probably think you're either a magician or an alien .
It does not mean there were no people who HAD an idea of airplanes that would fly back then , think of Leonardo Da Vinci .

But for the average Sunday church goer who was the 'right thinker' of those days it made every common sense that something so heavy would 'never fly'.


The Universe is billion times older than you think of so how can you be so sure there is no more advanced life out there, no more advanced physics , technologies ,
and I do agree with you about 'we are them' .

By earthly means , it just takes time 'to get there' .

I've seen ETs and technologies capable of traversing the space faster than you blink an eye , why do you think 'they' feel the need to prove themselves to 'us' who need to take our own road in the epic battle for survival of intelligent species ..

[Bill Ryan]

.
My favorite comment on this topic, perfect in my strong opinion as a one-line summary, was by Sean David Morton at the start of a conference presentation back in (I think) 2011-12.

"Do ETs exist? Duh !!!"

[indigopete]

Posted by Agape (here)
Todays physical theories and technical achievements and your conclusions are based on hundred or two centuries of technical revolution . If you were to introduce the idea of airplane to people of 15th century or showed them your computer they'd probably think you're either a magician or an alien .
It does not mean there were no people who HAD an idea of airplanes that would fly back then , think of Leonardo Da Vinci .

You're making the assumption that interstellar travel is all about advanced technology.

It isn't. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

I agree that we can't project today's conventions on tomorrow's reality, but I see the 'flat earth' people as those who believe in a physical alien presence that has arrived from distances of light years away in some kind of craft.

Those are the people that are seeing everything through today's conventions, not using their imagination and simply swallowing a media-delivered perspective on the subject.

The idea that interstellar travel is no more than an advanced version of the "motor car" is slightly ludicrous if you think about it, yet it lies at the heart of the flawed interpretation of the UFO phenomenon asserted by many posts in this thread. It is a perspective that only emerged substantially in the technological era and was hammered into place during the era of mass media. That basically tells you all you need to know about its veracity.

Simply assuming that we'll be able to do things tomorrow that we can't do today is not "thinking out of the box". "Thinking out of the box" is a mindset that involves getting rid of preconceptions. In this case, the preconception that an alien being is more or less what you see in Star Trek - an "us and them" scenario where the "them" is defined by physical remoteness, technological prowess and exotic appearance.

This is nothing more than a projection of our own aspirations and perspectives. It's barely more developed thinking than putting cowboys and indians in space suits.

I'm sorry, in my opinion, what you saw is not "ET"s. At least not ones that got here in a spacesuit from lightyears away. I respect your right to convince yourself of that but the phenomenon is local (IMO).

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by indigopete (here)

I'm sorry, what you saw is not "ET"s. At least not ones that got here in a spacesuit from lightyears away. I respect your right to convince yourself of that but the phenomenon is local.

In your opinion, of course. You omitted to include that.

[Agape]

It's a completely futile debate for both of us under the current level of discussion, I can assure you .

Pity I usually come to Bill Ryans forum out of mistake and when feeling like to be drowned in ocean .. instead doing it, actually.

[indigopete]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
In your opinion, of course. You omitted to include that.

Sorry - now corrected

[indigopete]

Posted by Agape (here)
It's a completely futile debate for both of us under the current level of discussion, I can assure you

No more so than than the debate that's been going on for the last 40 years.

The thing is, these discussion always revolve around what people did or didn't see, did or didn't experience etc. It tends to be overly anecdotal. Thats the real reason for the sense of futility IMO because you're constantly relying on second or third hand experiences or accounts who's degree of metaphor is ambigious.

There's very little consideration given to developing the actual nature of the reality we inhabit or playing with different types of hypothetical archetypes to escape the constraints of contemporary conditioning.

For example, lets say you were an external observer of the universe who's consciousness was pitched at a level where you sensed time at a vastly scaled up rate compared to human beings. Say, 1 second for you represented 50,000 earth years. You'd still get quite bored watching the universe develop because it would last around 80 hours.

However, you'd notice one interesting thing. Entire civilisations would suddenly appear and disappear around the place.

You'd notice something else. They apparently didn't transport themselves physically to their "arrival points", they just spontaneously emerged on the surface of planets. Then in about 10 seconds they were gone and would apparently re-appear somewhere else.

Meanwhile, undetectable to you (because it's happening at a faster rate than the resolution of your consciousness) individual beings within those societies are doing exactly the same thing - spontaneously appearing and disappearing.

What would you deduce from these observations ?

You'd have to draw one of two conclusions:

[1] - the 'beings' were already on the planet all the time, just in some kind of hibernating state

or

[2] - some kind of interchangeable field phenomenon was in play that connected everything but allowed for discrete precipitation into biological matter anywhere in the universe that supported it (much like the relationship between water vapour and raindrops)

In the latter case, the concept of 'interstellar transport' is moot. Sticking with the consciousness resolution of our external observer friend, the idea of one of those civilisations setting to work on building a physical vehicle to transport them around the place while they're stopped off at their 'station' is kind of ludicrous. It would make about as much sense as taking a transatlantic flight on holiday and then building a rowing boat to get you back, citing it as "advanced technology".

Thats why I say the the UFO phenomenon is largely interpreted in metaphor. Because we simply haven't got ourselves out of the "ant" perspective and we think the rowing boat must be advanced since we're not aware of the plane that brought us here in the first place. Nor does the media encourage us to think that way - it simply wouldn't sell. People need to recognise native archetypes in the entertainment they consume. Hence - for all it's science fictional modernity - Star Trek is barely distinguishable from an episode of Bonanza in terms of story lines.

I'd check that book out - "Two Thirds". It really does blow one's mind and brings a whole new perspective to seeing ourselves and our existence, whatever you think of the implied historical narrative regarding Mars etc.

[Cidersomerset]

My favorite comment on this topic, perfect in my strong opinion as a one-
line summary, was by Sean David Morton at the start of a conference presentation
back in (I think) 2011-12.

"Do ETs exist? Duh !!!"

That's certainly my 'gut reaction' and as I said in previous post everything tells
me they exist. I just cannot personally prove it from first hand experience that
I know of......Which is also what Jimmy Church was getting at and the Duh!
quote reminded me of Homer " Do ETs exist? Doh !!!"



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know this is not proof of ET existence , but certainly gives more probability they do for me.....

NASA telescope discovers largest collection of planets ever

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=T6Ie0mgiM04

Published on 13 May 2016

NASA announced that their Kepler telescope discovered the largest collection of
planets outside our solar system, which doubled the agency’s list of known
exoplanets. The term ‘exoplanet’ refers to any planet in space that orbits a star
other than the sun. RT America’s Manuel Rapalo delves deep into the science.

Find RT America in your area: http://rt.com/where-to-watch/
Or watch us online: http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/

====================================================
====================================================

NASA planet discovery: Kepler space telescope finds 1,284 new planets in our galaxy - TomoNews

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=uab8QuyywII

Published on 11 May 2016


WASHINGTON — NASA's Kepler mission, launched in 2009 and with two more years
to go, has detected 1,284 new exoplanets, including nine worlds that may be able
to sustain life.

NASA announced on Tuesday that the Kepler Space Telescope, which searches for
planets in our Milky Way that lie up to 3,000 light years from Earth, has verified
1,284 new planets. Five hundred and fifty appear to be rocky based on their size.
Of these 550, nine are located just far enough from their suns to suggest they may
contain water.

The latest finding nearly doubles the number of confirmed exoplanets and is the
largest number of new planets announced at one time, reported Space.

According to NASA's statement, the new findings can be credited to a computer
simulation and a new statistical method that takes into account such factors as how
many total stars are in our galaxy.

The total number of exoplanets discovered now stands at 3,200. A total of 21 of
these may be habitable. The Kepler mission shows that with at least 70 billion stars
in our galaxy, there may be billions of habitable, Earth-sized planets out there that
have yet to be discovered.

[Agape]

No more so than than the debate that's been going on for the last 40 years.

The thing is, these discussion always revolve around what people did or didn't see, did or didn't experience etc. It tends to be overly anecdotal. Thats the real reason for the sense of futility IMO because you're constantly relying on second or third hand experiences or accounts who's degree of metaphor is ambigious.

I'm not relying on anyones elses experiences, sorry . And i do understand you don't want to do the same thing either .
'..tends to be anecdotal ..' ? There you are , very far away from truth . You probably just wanted to repeat the well known scientifically sounding cliche about 'the evidence is anecdotal' .
That comes of course from mouths and ears of thousands of well known scientific authorities who took hard stand against the ET/UFO contact phenomena without ever researching it ,
or ..to give them some credit .. just watching the margins .

Reading sci-fi books or watching movies as you said too, may probably evolve your imaginative process and thinking in some areas but as 'first-liner' I would say,
it does not bring you closer to understanding about ET life or what is being discussed between people who experienced it .

I understand the point you make against installer travel - at the beginning of so called 21st century on earth with data available to you currently - but the perspective you're offering is older than both of us and getting more outdated as we speak .

There were indeed such trends supported by physicists of the last century who doubted the option of interstellar travel in its entirety and some try to hold to their theories to this day
but on the other hand there are just countless other , even hypothetical options to consider .

The initiative to build a ship capable of interstellar travel was already launched

http://100yss.org

under the joint auspices of NASA, DARPA and couple of other 'big fellows' .

There are tons of interesting ideas being explored about energy sources you've perhaps never thought about and many original pathways to take .
It does not mean all of them lead to success but some will .

Your perspective looks like a well paved , safe for you avenue but if you want to think or talk of hyperspace physics you'll have to broaden your views to 'limitless' .

Your idea of 'quantum universe' where everyone lives eternally disconnected from everyone else is a poster child of stagnating version of Einsteins relativity theory that itself has numberless implications and applications
but does not automatically prove what kind of Universe are we abiding in and how it started or functions in large ,
it merely explains how it may function and does between particular physical systems of certain mass .
In another words , the Universe of your imagination gets stuck in its own relativity .

What you forget to consider here , 100 years after Einstein .. is that 'time' is no separate dimension from Space and its quality is equally relative ,
depending on the quality of evolution of timespace as we know it .. and from any local view point , we can maximally predict the rest .

Therefor .. you can't practically refute the existence of variety of spacetime proportions/parameters that aren't available in 'this corner of Universe' and this particular Solar system,
you can't refute the existence of much older and differently evolved spacetime where celestial bodies last for billions of their own years,
life has existed long before this 'spacetime' evolved itself to the category we are familiar with and that intelligent entities do not exist who were/are able to utilise different resources than those known to us and master 'interstellar travel' .

I'm really not to StarTrek so please forgive if I miss some of your argument there but i insist that exploring some of todays adventurous physical theories would bring you far more entertainment than sci-fi movies .


It's not the right place and thread in my opinion to discuss what i've seen or know of but if you can use the simple forum software functions, it's not difficult to find out .

However . Without studying any one case to depth, myself , I'd not dare to dismiss the case or person firsthands or dismiss the scientific opportunity to do so , if i were you.

[indigopete]

Posted by Agape (here)
Your idea of 'quantum universe' where everyone lives eternally disconnected from everyone else is a poster child of stagnating version of Einsteins relativity theory that itself has numberless implications and applications

With respect, you seem to have misinterpreted my view.

I wasn't suggesting we were "disconnected" other than physically for an infinitesimally small period of time. Compare the amount of time that any given individual is alive to the amount of time they are not. It's a split second in the overall scheme of things.

The idea that they would attempt physical interstellar travel in that instant is what I'm saying is nonsensical. It just isn't a reasonable assumption to make when put into an appropriate perspective (and assumptions are all we have when interpreting the UFO phenomenon).

There are other ways of looking at this which can possibly reconcile a lot of apparently disparate perspectives.

For example, I've often speculated that dream states or meditative states actually involve some aspect of inter-dimensional travel. Or, conversely, that our thoughts are not as autonomous as they appear and could actually be expressions of other beings that we "transduce" into recognised archetypes.

An interesting parallel with mainstream science is that if that were to be true it may explain the sense of time speeding up or slowing down. For example when we wake up from a deep sleep, time seems to have passed almost instantaneously since we were last awake and if our "souls" were in fact travelling at or near lightspeed that is exactly what Einstein's theories say would happen. You'd return to base thinking barely a second had passed.

I don't mean to diminish the value of your own experiences which have clearly had a profound impact on your view of reality, but at the same time they are subjective. They are not "evidence" of interstellar travel that can carry weight with anyone but yourself. Thats what I meant by anecdotal accounts.

[Gerald Paris]

Posted by indigopete (here)

Posted by Justplain (here)
Idigopete, of course there could be a big psy-op about much of the ufo phenomenon, however to say that interstellar visitation does not take place here or might not be taking place, would be ignoring the facts. Eye witness UFO encounters world wide...To ignore this evidence of offworlder visitations here is to deny the facts, imo.

How is any of that evidence of "alien visitations" ?

All it is is evidence of Hollywood's projection of "alien visitations". None of us have any clue as to what the characteristics of alien life are so we have no reference points. The "reference points" have all been supplied to us by the media.

I do not think that testimony of abductions, cattle mutilations, sightings of high performance craft are evidence of anything other than strange phenomena that can only be accounted for by secret technology or other earthbound sources.

They could of course be "alien" as you say. All I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely - as in less likely than seeing a genuine flying pig.

The thing is, it's very difficult to travel to other planets, but it's very easy to convince people of stuff. In this case, the reason it's easy is because most cannot (or do not) make an intuitive appraisal of the practicalities involved. They think that interstellar travel is like airline travel - just something thats waiting to be invented.

It isn't.

There is no such thing as interstellar travel as far as incarnate beings goes because mass - almost by definition - is a destination in its own right, not a vehicle. It would be like trying to move the whole of London to New York just let one Londoner visit New York. Completely pointless.

If we were really being "visited" you wouldn't be seeing the odd glimpse of a shimmering light. You'd have half of every main street teaming with aliens. Hey, guess what - we do !! They're called us and we arrive in bodies, not saucers LoL

Seriously though, this phenomenon is not something arriving from other planets IMO and people should start waking up to that likelihood.

Thank you for adding this to the conversation. a much needed perspective.

G