"They used to inhabit this planet when there was not a sun"

[Agape]

Posted by araucaria (here)
Dear Agape
I caught your initial response, which was just a flash of anger, and had obviously subsided a little by the time you changed your post. I am sorry you are so very angry, but, although I may have been the trigger on this occasion, I do not believe I am the cause of it.

My posts are perfectly on topic on the subject of the witness testimony from Peru in the OP. Yours was a little inconsistent. You point out a potential problem that witness testimony can pose by quoting your own witness testimony as if it poses no problems of its own.

You say my ideas about Saturn are only a theory: too true. I have a healthy scepticism for that theory myself, and will be happy to ditch it just as soon as I find a better one. But this must apply to your witness testimony too. I am glad to see you are taking questions, but if you are not answering the hard questions that might upset your theory, preferring to see them as a personal attack, then you are not showing the healthy scepticism you require of others. This is indeed a health issue: among other benefits, it prevents anger. Far from making a personal attack, I am actually showing concern for your wellbeing.

Puzzlement and lack of understanding are a form of, maybe not disease, but at least ill-ease. Greater understanding takes us to somewhere more comfortable, which is why we are constant seekers. I imagine disease sometimes results when that process stops and we start settling for discomfort as being comfortable enough. A no longer needed crutch ends up weakening the function it was intended to strengthen; and an overused theory turns into a belief system, from a useful tool into a spanner in the works.

I got the message that you no longer wish to interact. I have had my say and have nothing more to add. Peace

Note: I wrote this before seeing your latest post, which I have not read yet. Being open-minded, I may therefore have something to add after all; but then again, I may find silence is the wiser course.

But then, you don't really know how great ( or small ) my understanding is ...





You know , I believe that you can't show everything without actually solving it . Get with on the toughest question you know that bugs you and get the answer right .
And then on to another question .
It's a work in progress . Taken my foreign evolutionary system it takes years to process certain facets of human emotional experience .

I really , am not used to talk down to people or let them on me frequently Araucaria , which is justifiable by my personal situation and basic survival instincts,

and respect i wish to held for you.

I do not ask you to either talk or not talk or avoid my input or express any stand towards it unless you know how to ask small questions before asking Big Ones.



Hope that helps

[araucaria]

Agape, if you had the great wisdom you claim, you would have the self-awareness to realize just how much of what you are telling me is actually mirror-gazing on your part. Asking small questions indeed. I once asked you a very tiny question: Why don’t you join the Here & Now thread and make small talk as part of a group – things like asking someone how old their cat is? It doesn’t get much smaller than that. Yet you are the one that cannot do that.

My questioning why your ET civilization had to be so very very old was basically another very small question. It’s like a child hearing a story beginning ‘Once upon a time, a very very long time ago...’ and asking their parent why it has to be so very very long ago. The child is not looking down on its parent, it is actually looking up and is surprised to find its very small question was so big it is too difficult to answer. One to be brushed off with an authoritarian reply like ‘Because that is how I am telling the story’. Here you are behaving like that parent; as the child, albeit by no means a naive one, I am not looking down on you at all, merely unable to look up to you the way you would like. You are looking down on me, not the other way round.

So you claim to be a scientist. A scientist has to defend her thesis to get her diploma. That means offering satisfactory answers to tough critical questions. You cannot get away with saying you are actually from an ancient civilization lightyears ahead of your examiners who simply don’t understand. If this were true, then it would make your task so much easier, you would have an answer for everything in terms they did understand. Take the reported ET entity Ra in the Law of One: they actually insist on a Q&A format and give straight answers to just about any question that the scientist Don Elkins can throw at them. The material is probably as good as the questions: if it has flaws, this is doubtless because the questions weren’t sophisticated and penetrating enough – but then a scientist can also earn a degree for an inadequate thesis with adequate answers to inadequate questions. Today with over 30 years’ hindsight, we can think of such questions, so the Ra material also has to be taken with a degree of scepticism. Likewise peer-reviewed science remains falsifiable even after initial acceptance. Hence the Ra protocol is a machine for raising questions through open-ended answers.

However, I can understand your unwillingness/inability to follow such a protocol, because it was all of 80 million years ago that you were one of the great god-giants that became invisible to your own people. By your own admission those powers were gradually lost; meaning that you are now for the most part simply Eva Zemanova, an ordinary young woman who had a somewhat extraordinary psychic experience – I say somewhat, because such experiences are becoming fairly common. I suggest you get over it, one very good reason being that if your tale were true, you are telling us that you are/were one of the original elite who have been oppressing this planet and its people for thousands if not millions of years – eighty million you say. They/you are the ones who have been foisting religion and other bedtime fairytales on us, and we are no longer listening. I don’t necessarily mean you personally, but those you are identifying with and speaking for. But if you won’t step back from this, then you become personally responsible.

As you say, no evil was originally involved: that is true at least when the parent-child relationship evolves in a timely manner into a relationship between adults. I am not talking down to you if I say that I have had the human experience of this and you have not: it’s a simple fact. There comes a stage where notions of big and small are gradually reversed, which may involve a little conflict, unless it is tempered by gratitude on both sides.
And I am not talking down to you if I ask one more simple question, actually just reformulate the previous one. What are the odds of a civilization that has lasted for eons upon eons having as you say its one-and-only navigational failure in this part of the universe, and then having a second accident upon landing on Earth? Science tells us Earth is nothing special; this seems to be telling us it is almost infinitely special and different from the rest of the universe. It is not a simple question at all because the answer would be more nuanced...

I only ask because the Saturn theory as developed by David Talbott and extended by myself (which you unscientifically dismiss without so much as a glance) has an answer to the complex question: in binary star systems, which are the rule rather than the exception, accidents happen all the time; whenever the stars pass at their closest, at least in the early stages, an extreme outer planet may get shaved off and possibly captured by the companion star and placed in an uncomfortable orbit and a difficult new situation. In other words, the main features of your Bodhgaya event are obtainable very easily and very frequently and very locally, with no interstellar travel involved, just a bit of planet-hopping. So the same question can be reformulated once again: why would Occam’s razor not apply?

I am reminded of SF writer Damon Knight’s critique of A. E. van Vogt and his ‘cosmic chess game’: he "is not a giant as often maintained. He's only a pygmy who has learned to operate an overgrown typewriter." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damon_Knight
This is only partly valid as criticism, because it does allow for overgrown typewriters and pint-sized operators.
Resolving the dialectical relationship of big and small, i.e. learning perspective, is something I keep coming back to, notably in this post and the following one, both of which you thanked:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post988290

Feel free not to answer my big/small questions; they are rhetorical questions to no one in particular and each person may find their own answers. Their value is in the asking.

[Agape]

Posted by Agape (here)
It's what I remember about the times our ET ancestors came here , millions of years ago ( who knows what time was it exactly ) , living in kind of 'twilight zone' for very long time .
It does not mean there was no Sun or anything remotely close to the idea , it just means the light was very dim and earthly atmosphere was obscured
and the same phenomenon may have occurred many times later as well , perhaps following some major cataclysm.

I would like to return this thread to its topic and memory of our ancestors . The above is all I've said and wanted to share at that moment .

It has completely different meaning to me than you seem to be deriving here for yourself Araucaria and it's being as respectful as rushing to a room where someone meditates to 'wake them up for argument' , tell them how useless their meditation is , explaining it changed nothing in course of human history over past million or two years and inviting them instead to 'Disneyland' .
We're coming from almost polar perspectives here and my only fault here , it seems , was posting after you .

I don't understand how could or can someone being 'confrontational' about big topics like this or why do you think or intend to hurt my awareness.

I've hoped quietly that someone would clear the mess we've both now created of this thread topic and the debate can continue quietly or otherwise between those who want to debate it.

I don't want the 'tune of yours' that you've applied to me with great gusto number of times in past so I remember it too well, in my head, responding to every A with B , with sarcasm . Wise people do not do that, indeed.


While I chose to retreat to the memory of my ancestors here, you chose to confront me with the memory of worst this world has to offer . So forgive if I don't thank you for that .

And I will keep asking Bill and the team for assistance if you continue making drama of my little post here




Please don't be surprised I'm not willing to read you, answer to you and argue ad nauseam.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by araucaria (here)
agape, if you had the great wisdom you claim, you would have the self-awareness to realize just how much of what you are telling me is actually mirror-gazing on your part. Asking small questions indeed. I once asked you a very tiny question: Why don’t you join the here & now thread and make small talk as part of a group – things like asking someone how old their cat is? It doesn’t get much smaller than that. Yet you are the one that cannot do that.

i have asked for the previous postings of yours being confrontational and off topic where i am concerned being deleted together with my replies.
I am not coming to distribute or receive insults here and argue because 'you desire an argument'.


You miss my meaning in just about everything, including suggestions for 'small talk' .

[Agape]

There's yet whole another meaning to the topic for me here and there may be as many interesting insights as there are people coming around here , I suppose.

I for one love caves , have visited many curious cave dwellings since I was a kid, according to my mum I was even nearly conceived in place with caves far away in mountains , I searched for 'good cave' to stay in Himalayas for many years
but so called 'good caves' are hard to find ( those that are warm, have water spring nearby , safe and well shielded from weather , out of reach to tourists and so forth ).
There are many beautiful and interesting cave dwellings around the globe ,
some of which have 'special energies', partially for being underground , closer to the tectonic activity under our feet ,
some have high prevalence of certain elements that can be healing or dangerous to life , gas vents, mineral water springs , redundant life forms that exist only due to that particular caves environment ,
not to mention remains of civilisations some of our remote ancestors built in caves and so forth .

I find this very interesting topic and hope it serves many peaceful purposes .

If it all somehow irks somebody I suggest , another topic or poster may be equally good for you.
If it's me who gets on your nerves, I suggest reporting me to the Bill of rights&freedoms here and the MOD team and starting a protocolar proceeding where you explain your stand fully and those good people will explain why do they have me here at all or where I'm permitted to post and what .

I'm not you. You can copy my words which is superficial but under no circumstances can we copy each others mindset .
Unless you can get over what your mum and teachers told you to be the 'correct version of yours' is the only good you that exists and you never happened to grow over yourself, the society of yours, culture or not , towards seeing world that is otherwise invisible we are each feeling, thinking , and discussing different ways.


What's so wrong about it is that I sense you actually enjoy 'lulling me out' to where you think you can attack me by 'scientific means' known to yourself .

In science too , ethical principles should stay unharmed . Sacrificing thousands rabbits for saving one kid may be 'means justifying its ends' but I don't see who are you saving here .
It hurts me more for the sheer stupidity of your mind process I'm unable to link to mentally so it's more like , poking to the eye of 'blind mole rat' really .

The fact you disbelieve that your 'subject' here feels pain from those attempts or has any valid memory and still feeling entitled to discuss how you doubt my honesty
brings things exactly to the edge where the 'blind mole rat' wants to go back to its cave .

[Agape]

However, I can understand your unwillingness/inability to follow such a protocol, because it was all of 80 million years ago that you were one of the great god-giants that became invisible to your own people. By your own admission those powers were gradually lost; meaning that you are now for the most part simply Eva Zemanova, an ordinary young woman who had a somewhat extraordinary psychic experience – I say somewhat, because such experiences are becoming fairly common. I suggest you get over it, one very good reason being that if your tale were true, you are telling us that you are/were one of the original elite who have been oppressing this planet and its people for thousands if not millions of years – eighty million you say. They/you are the ones who have been foisting religion and other bedtime fairytales on us, and we are no longer listening. I don’t necessarily mean you personally, but those you are identifying with and speaking for. But if you won’t step back from this, then you become personally responsible.

You are wrong on every account . The 'gods' , the 'giants' , quote 'my name' ( WHY NOT YOURS IF YOU ARE SO IDENTIFIED WITH YOUR NAME ? )

life i do not live, mentality i don't share , what on Earth do you think you do about me ?

Did you ever ask me for interview ?

Did you speak to me as other people do , with dignity of their own ? In private usually but what you're attempting here equals creating PUBLIC SHAMING .

Are you warning me to stop posting here and stop being me because it's all about your opinion, your behaviour and you personally, can't find any use or way of me than to continue the PUBLIC SCAM ?

Yes I need to carry passport with name that's pretty ordinary, in other cultures people call me their own names, i had interesting life on many levels of exploratory , spiritual and semi-professional experience and posting here on open board has always been done with some level of cautions and discretion that you're ,
in your 'John ANON' cloak, without introducing yourself to me ever , somehow rather reluctant to respect .

You're in fact 'welcoming the confrontation' because it's the ordinary thing that people are fed up with for most and because it disturbs me and everybody else .

Prove me otherwise .

I've had many peaceful and beautiful discussions with people on many topics, in private, and all over the years but minding you , we all really prefer and respect a level of decency that's somehow unfitting your public martyrdom here.
In fact, you're accusing me of being 'you' . So I think, this discussion from 'you' is breaching not only my personal boundaries,
deprives the term 'intelligence' of its meaning but continues rising red flag about your motivations here.

If you are so silly to need to be explained every word, every sentence and discuss it twice or pretend you need to ,
it makes little if any difference to me. I find that exceedingly disturbing because how silly it is,
discussing big topics with small minded individuals .

[Agape]

Doing the math is awkward because you don’t say how long a year is. For the sake of argument, and since you are comparing to earth time, let’s say it is 365 days of 24 hours, or 8760 hours, like ours. Hence 20 years is 175,200 hours. That would make one ET year 8760*175,200 earth years, or a little over 1.5 billion years. Hence it comes as no surprise to learn that a civilization claiming to be millions of billions (quadrillions) of years old is ‘not at all affected by any local happenings’ in a universe thought (doubtless mistakenly) to be only a few billion years old. (The one possible exception being the loss of one of its ships here, with 10,000 souls on board). More to the point, on a planet that has only just discovered space weather and is only beginning to think of interstellar and intergalactic weather, local humans, who are by most accounts a fairly young race, likewise understandably feel not at all affected by happenings so remote in space and time. The actual situation however is much ‘worse’ than this if we factor in your suggestion that older planets rotate more slowly. If that is the case, then your home planet’s day and year would be much longer, meaning that in earth years we are talking about a universe not quadrillions but quintillions of years old.

There is no simple maths like that . You have to calculate transition of 2 ( two ) non-linear time-space systems .

The event horizon 80 million years is like an imaginary number . It's what i've somehow calculated/got at the end of the time tunnel processing .

Two non-linear time-space systems that evolved billions of years apart, that's correct .

Our days may have lasted more than 60 of our hours . Our year may have lasted 360 of our days .

We knew how to construct artificial space-time field utilised in space travel .




In maths I think if we would try to compare two non-linear systems you'd have to set the core value to either zero or infinite ,
which would only predict hypothetical parallel dimensions that never meet or 0 for those who are subsidiary to each other.

However and because we've experienced the 'touch-down' here in real time , with time convergence starting at differential of 1 hour of ours /20 years of this planet ,
and gradually degrading with curvature nearing zero ,

we're somewhere on that landslide and the numbers have to be calculated as 'fluid'.

With that , we may be also reaching 'future horizon of events' faster than was predictable at the beginning .

Which may be both good and bad news , depending on where we are . So there's definitely an option for re-calculation.


It's probable that someone did such a maths already, see here :

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip....1063/1.530426

Nonlinear systems related to an arbitrary space–time dependence of the spectral transform
Jérôme Leon1

A general algebraic analytic scheme for the spectral transform of solutions of nonlinear evolution equations is proposed. This allows one to give the general nonlinear evolution corresponding to an arbitrary time and space dependence of the spectral transform (in general nonlinear and with nonanalytic dispersion relations). The main theorem is that the compatibility conditions always give a true nonlinear evolution because it can always be written as an identity between polynomials in the spectral variable k. This general result is then used to obtain first a method to generate a new class of solutions to the nonlinear Schrödinger equation, and second to construct the spectral transform theory for solving initial‐boundary value problems for resonant wave‐coupling processes (like self‐induced transparency in two‐level media, or stimulated Brillouin scattering of plasma waves, or else stimulated Raman scattering in nonlinear optics, etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Minkowski_space


Observers time point ( wiki source , Minkowski space ) :

he momentarily co-moving inertial frames along the trajectory ("world line") of a rapidly accelerating observer (center). The vertical direction indicates time, while the horizontal indicates distance, the dashed line is the spacetime of the observer. The small dots are specific events in spacetime. Note how the momentarily co-moving inertial frame changes when the observer accelerates.

Vectors v = (ct, x, y, z) = (ct, r) are classified according to the sign of c2t2 - r2. A vector is timelike if c2t2 > r2, spacelike if c2t2 < r2, and null or lightlike if c2t2 = r2. This can be expressed in terms of the sign of η(v,v) as well, but depends on the signature. The classification of any vector will be the same in all frames of reference, because of the invariance of the interval.

The set of all null vectors at an event[nb 5] of Minkowski space constitutes the light cone of that event. Given a timelike vector v, there is a worldline of constant velocity associated with it, represented by a straight line in a Minkowski diagram.

Once a direction of time is chosen,[nb 6] timelike and null vectors can be further decomposed into various classes. For timelike vectors one has

future-directed timelike vectors whose first component is positive, (tip of vector located in absolute future in figure) and
past-directed timelike vectors whose first component is negative (absolute past).
Null vectors fall into three classes:

the zero vector, whose components in any basis are (0,0,0,0) (origin),
future-directed null vectors whose first component is positive (upper light cone), and
past-directed null vectors whose first component is negative (lower light cone).
Spacelike vectors are in elsewhere. The terminology stems from the fact that spacelike separated events are connected by vectors requiring faster-than-light travel, and so cannot possibly influence each other. Together with spacelike and lightlike vectors there are 7 classes in all.

An orthonormal basis for Minkowski space necessarily consists of one timelike and three spacelike unit vectors. If one wishes to work with non-orthonormal bases it is possible to have other combinations of vectors. For example, one can easily construct a (non-orthonormal) basis consisting entirely of null vectors, called a null basis. Over the reals, if two null vectors are orthogonal (zero Minkowski tensor value), then they must be proportional. However, allowing complex numbers, one can obtain a null tetrad, which is a basis consisting of null vectors, some of which are orthogonal to each other.

Vector fields are called timelike, spacelike or null if the associated vectors are timelike, spacelike or null at each point where the field is defined.

[Agape]

Possibly related : the Toba eruption

The Toba supereruption was a supervolcanic eruption that occurred some time between 69,000 and 77,000 years ago at the site of present-day Lake Toba (Sumatra, Indonesia). It is one of the Earth's largest known eruptions. The Toba catastrophe theory holds that this event caused a global volcanic winter of 6–10 years and possibly a 1,000-year-long cooling episode.

In 1993, science journalist Ann Gibbons suggested a link between the eruption and a population bottleneck in human evolution, and Michael R. Rampino of New York University and Stephen Self of the University of Hawaii at Manoa gave support to the idea. In 1998, the bottleneck theory was further developed by Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Both the link and global winter theories are highly controversial.[2][3]

The Toba event is the most closely studied super eruption

The Toba eruption or Toba event occurred at the present location of Lake Toba, in Indonesia, about 75000±900 years Before Present (BP).[7][8] This eruption was the last and largest of four eruptions of Toba during the Quaternary period, and is also recognized from its diagnostic horizon of ashfall, the youngest Toba tuff (YTT).[9][10] It had an estimated volcanic explosivity index of 8 (the maximum), or a magnitude ≥ M8; it made a sizable contribution to the 100×30 km caldera complex.[11] Dense-rock equivalent (DRE) estimates of eruptive volume for the eruption vary between 2000 km3 and 3000 km3 – the most common DRE estimate is 2800 km3 (about 7×1015 kg) of erupted magma, of which 800 km3 was deposited as ash fall.[12]

The erupted mass was 100 times greater than that of the largest volcanic eruption in recent history, the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia, which caused the 1816 "Year Without a Summer" in the Northern Hemisphere.[13] Toba's erupted mass deposited an ash layer about 15 centimetres (6 inches) thick over the whole of South Asia. A blanket of volcanic ash was also deposited over the Indian Ocean, and the Arabian Sea and South China Sea.[14] Deep-sea cores retrieved from the South China Sea have extended the known reach of the eruption, suggesting that the 2800 km3 calculation of the erupted mass is a minimum value or even an underestimation.

Genetic bottleneck theory[edit]
The Toba eruption has been linked to a genetic bottleneck in human evolution about 50,000 years ago,[33][34] which may have resulted from a severe reduction in the size of the total human population due to the effects of the eruption on the global climate.[35]

According to the genetic bottleneck theory, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, human populations sharply decreased to 3,000–10,000 surviving individuals.[36][37] It is supported by genetic evidence suggesting that today's humans are descended from a very small population of between 1,000 and 10,000 breeding pairs that existed about 70,000 years ago.[38]

Proponents of the genetic bottleneck theory (including Robock) suggest that the Toba eruption resulted in a global ecological disaster, including destruction of vegetation along with severe drought in the tropical rainforest belt and in monsoonal regions. For example, a 10-year volcanic winter triggered by the eruption could have largely destroyed the food sources of humans and caused a severe reduction in population sizes.[24] Τhese environmental changes may have generated population bottlenecks in many species, including hominids;[39] this in turn may have accelerated differentiation from within the smaller human population. Therefore, the genetic differences among modern humans may reflect changes within the last 70,000 years, rather than gradual differentiation over millions of years.[40]

Other research has cast doubt on a link between Toba and a genetic bottleneck. For example, ancient stone tools in southern India were found above and below a thick layer of ash from the Toba eruption and were very similar across these layers, suggesting that the dust clouds from the eruption did not wipe out this local population.[41][42][43] Additional archaeological evidence from Southern and Northern India also suggests a lack of evidence for effects of the eruption on local populations, leading the authors of the study to conclude, "many forms of life survived the supereruption, contrary to other research which has suggested significant animal extinctions and genetic bottlenecks".[44] However, evidence from pollen analysis has suggested prolonged deforestation in South Asia, and some researchers have suggested that the Toba eruption may have forced humans to adopt new adaptive strategies, which may have permitted them to replace Neanderthals and "other archaic human species".[45] This has been challenged by evidence for the presence of Neanderthals in Europe and Homo floresiensis in Southeastern Asia who survived the eruption by 50,000 and 60,000 years, respectively.[46]

Additional caveats to the Toba-induced bottleneck theory include difficulties in estimating the global and regional climatic impacts of the eruption and lack of conclusive evidence for the eruption preceding the bottleneck.[47] Furthermore, genetic analysis of Alu sequences across the entire human genome has shown that the effective human population size was less than 26,000 at 1.2 million years ago; possible explanations for the low population size of human ancestors may include repeated population bottlenecks or periodic replacement events from competing Homo subspecies

[MorningFox]

Posted by Jeffedelic (here)

Posted by ghostrider (here)
Trees need sunlight to grow, grass needs sunlight to grow, the flora and fauna need sunlight ... the sun is the first component to forming a solar system, its enormous and far reaching gravitational arms bind everything together... sorry but no way there was a planet before a sun ...

Even if there was some stray body floating through the void (which I suppose could happen under certain conditions but would still need an original star to form) it'd be crazy to think it'd be able to encounter a new solar system and enter a stable, "normal" orbit.

..but you're still thinking in your limited human terms (which of course no one can be blamed for). Who knows what utter possibilities for intelligence exist and what it would or wouldn't need to survive.

It's unfathomable... you can't just brush ghostrider's suggestion off simply because your limited psyche can't understand it. I tend to agree with ghostrider, it's more than possible.

[Agape]

The weird situation around the planet predicts ...

Milky Way no longer visible to one third of humanity, light pollution atlas shows

The New World Atlas of Artificial Sky Brightness


Quote/ It has inspired astronomers, artists, musicians and poets but the Milky Way could become a distant memory for much of humanity, a new global atlas of light pollution suggests.

The study reveals that 60% of Europeans and almost 80% of North Americans cannot see the glowing band of our galaxy because of the effects of artificial lighting, while it is imperceptible to the entire populations of Singapore, Kuwait and Malta.

Overall, the Milky Way is no longer visible to more than one third of the world’s population.

Lead author Fabio Falchi from the Light Pollution Science and Technology Institute in Italy said the situation was a “cultural loss of unprecedented magnitude.”

Chris Elvidge of the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and a co-author of the study, added that the times he has seen the Milky Way have been magical experiences.

“Through our technology we’ve cut off that possibility for large numbers of people for multiple generations now,” he said. “We’ve lost something - but how do we place value on it?”

Described by John Milton as “a broad and ample road whose dust is gold, and pavement stars,” the Milky Way is so obscured by the effects of modern lighting that it is no longer visible to 77% of the UK population, with the galaxy masked from view across nearly 14% of the country, including regions stretching from London to Liverpool and Leeds.

Further afield, areas around the cities of Hong Kong, Beijing and a large stretch of the East Coast of America are among those where a glimpse of the galactic band is out of the question - a situation also found across much of Qatar, the Netherlands and Israel. In Belgium, it cannot be seen in 51% of the country.

“Humanity has enveloped our planet in a luminous fog that prevents most of Earth’s population from having the opportunity to observe our galaxy,” the authors write.

“Generations to come will never see that beauty”

We are here on planet Earth but we live in a huge cosmos, and its one of the things that links us to our position in the universe. And so it is wonderful to see it. I think by looking up at the stars we have endeavoured to do so many things, we’ve sent probes to Pluto and beyond, and if we lose contact with that I think we lose some of our ability to dream and to aspire. It starts with the Milky Way but where will it end?

I spent a wonderful six months working at a telescope in Chile, at the Gemini telescope, and there we could actually see [the Milky Way] - it did look like a path across the sky. It has inspired songs, it has inspired people to great endeavours and so I think the more light pollution there is the more we miss out on that, and the generations to come will never see that beauty.

Maggie Aderin-Pocock, space scientist and presenter of the Sky at Night

“I am perhaps more inspired by the Milky Way than any artist who has ever lived”
For me the Milky Way has been an unfailing source of inspiration and wonder, as basic component of my identity as the fact that I live on Earth in our Solar System.

I have been a passionate evangelist for the galaxy, and am perhaps more inspired by the Milky Way than any artist who has ever lived.

I deplore the barriers we have erected that block the view for most of Earth’s people. Nothing can clear the mind, elevate the soul, or inspire curiosity more than the Milky Way.

Jon Lomberg, artist and principal artistic collaborator of astronomer Carl Sagan

“It’s important that it’s not just astronomers who care about this”

The night sky is the most universally-shared part of our environment. It’s been gazed and wondered at, throughout history, by people in all parts of the world. It’s indeed a sad deprivation that many young people have never seen a clear starry sky. And it’s important that it’s not just astronomers who care about this.

I’m not an ornithologist, but I’d feel deprived if songbirds disappeared from my garden. Likewise, there would surely be widespread sadness if light pollution screened out our celestial environment from ever more of us.

Lord Martin Rees, astronomer royal

“The Milky Way is our link to the Other”

The Milky Way is our link to the Other: to the lost civilisations out there in the galaxy, so far away and so profligate that they appear not as stars, but as a single brush stroke of watery light. When we lose the Milky Way, we sever the umbilical cord that connects us to the wider universe.

Ben Miller, actor, comedian and author

“We, in our ceaseless dash to make money and cover the world with concrete, have lost this priceless treasure”

It’s not just the Milky Way [people] can’t see. Who in the 21st Century has ever seen the Zodiacal Light - that beautiful cone of dusty light that can even outshine the Milky Way, a thrill to see if you are lucky enough to have dark skies where you live. And probably about 10,000 stars that the three Wise Men on their way to Bethlehem would have been able to see are all invisible to us in the cities, where we are swamped by mainly unnecessary stray light. From my roof in Kensington on a clear night I can see roughly 30 stars - it’s a tragedy, really. Along with all the other excesses of what we call civilisation, our first-hand awareness of the cosmos has been forgotten.

We are so fortunate to be living on a planet that gives us a view, not only of our own Solar System companions: the planets, comets, etc - but also of countless stars in our own Milky Way Galaxy. Because of this we’ve been able make the foundations of cosmology, discovering the very nature of the vast universe around us. From our position out on a spiral arm of the Galaxy, we see both inwards towards the centre of the Galaxy and outwards towards its edge. The billions of stars in the Galactic plane show up as a milky light which has enchanted people from the dawn of history. But we, in our ceaseless dash to make money and cover the world with concrete, have lost this priceless treasure. Along with almost all our wildlife, our contact with Nature, and our humanity.

Brian May, astrophysicist and lead guitarist of Queen

“We should act to protect our ability to enjoy the universe”

The Milky Way evokes a feeling of awe when I see it. It always has and it always will. This is partly because it is rare to see now due to light pollution. It’s analogous to spotting a rare bird in your back garden. But I have many memories of seeing this band of hazy light from the dark skies of my village when I was younger. To be able to see the collective light from the stars making up our own galaxy gives a tantalising sense of the enormity of our universe and the structures within it. That so few people are now able to see now the Milky Way is a great loss. We are forcing ourselves to look inward and not outward. And just as we bemoan the loss of our countryside we should act to protect our ability to enjoy the universe. If we don’t, its inspirational value will be untapped and a site of scientific interest will be rendered accessible only using professional telescopes on mountains or on spacecraft.

Lucie Green, Professor of Physics at University College, London and presenter of the Sky at Night

I think that's significant feature of our otherwise featureless times ... the loss of humanity we all have mentioned at least one thousand times ,
and not being able to see stars at night . Everyone watching their bright screens instead, high on certainty ..
even while reading some of those great comments, it reminds me again and again about things we've learned to repeat .

Things like 'great' . Or 'absolutely' . Claims of someones elses or our work being of 'timeless significance' and 'rock statement' and there are so many , countless of them everywhere around ..
including the media companies advertisements . The travel agencies advertisements promising to take you to pristine and heavenly shores where you can volunteer for ever ( two weeks for $2000 , volunteering , no joke ).
The endless conspiracy themes and ufology theorists who are now becoming 'absolutely bullet proof' .


One day , people being born in one of the worlds cities under a spectre of colourful lights may start wondering about there being any stars out there at all or is it all being a cinema show .

As a matter of allegory , many do already ''question everything'' , especially the very existence of 'sanity' , 'freedom', or 'authenticity' among all those matters frequently questioned in realms of artificial joys and sorrows .

What is indeed , more valuable than clear and open sky views and clarity of your own, unsupported perception compared to million of other values that have to stand supported by someone elses views ,
values that can be bought and sold , names that have to be given and registered , identity borrowed from kings and queens ,
how does it all compare to views of the skies and views of your own ..


What's important in life, dear Araucaria and the rest , can't be lost , forgotten or stolen . Knowing what one should know about himself is not a cheap trinket to exchange for 'names and honours' and knowing what lies beyond the Earth is not 'forbidden fruit' to touch .
All I've ever lost and will keep losing can be worldliness and labels someone else plastered on my back . The worldliness that's bound to be lost .


The planet is a globe .. and so all we say, is bound to look upside down to people in Australia and mirror-like to those behind the globe and like frozen icicles from the North Pole .





P.S. : You can travel the Universe with 'Your Honest Opinion'. But, I bet sure once alone out there in Space for couple of thousand years you'll prefer your Knowledge from Honest Opinions.
That's about 'internet relativism' ruining our lives and communication .. ,
it's how culture is NOT a language and language is not a loney culture ,
it's about unfitting perceptions that can't help individuals and our shared resistance to change.
It's all about the automatic , insentient , life consuming matrix .. where someone , somewhere , got me wrong on the square 2 , necessarily .
No jumps from the square 2 for 7 rounds . No jumps over the Q&Ks heads . Quit the game ET !!!

[Agape]

I suggest you get over it, one very good reason being that if your tale were true, you are telling us that you are/were one of the original elite who have been oppressing this planet and its people for thousands if not millions of years – eighty million you say. They/you are the ones who have been foisting religion and other bedtime fairytales on us, and we are no longer listening. I don’t necessarily mean you personally, but those you are identifying with and speaking for. But if you won’t step back from this, then you become personally responsible.

I can't believe my own eyes for how wrong did you interpret me or my testimony and that all, without asking single pertinent question .

I sense misogyny in you, sorry Araucaria. Some kind of hatred stuck in you , you're all trying to get rid of now by beaming it to space.
It's what I see is /was happening within this ( broader ) community for long time, accepting testimonies of people that are not more than nightmares .
Full of fear , fight against 'monsters', in this world and beyond.

I guess the 'nightmare' crosses a critical mass from when you're unable to discriminate any longer it's not any sort of 'objective' but your nightmare.
The threshold of hysteria when you are cynically yelling at me to 'get rid of it' . You're not either the first or the last but I can calmly tell you that this is a part of your social hysteria .

I wonder if you'd have better chat with Barry King because he actually, fits more to the ;human paradigm' as you're describing it to me and 'leaving his experiences behind' and having good human family of his own is important .

I can't even guess how did you get back to me with all these awful out-of-court questions after 2 years, yet totally convinced you're hitting nail on head ?

Hit someone you can, walls, nails , your saviour on cross ..

just killing a person does not kill ideas .

It does not annihilate their life , 42 years of human experience , beyond that .. and what's more pertinent to here, it allows no information or wisdom share at all.

That's why I've reported those posts as I can't still believe how this forum ( or some people ) got me wrong ,

much of the interpretation may go back to Barry who has his own way of being, seeing and handling problems ,

unfortunately for us he's called his 'disclosures' a quit , due to prolonged health and family situation .

I do not feel fine about your hostility towards me or thinking either of us are living some sort of 'story' .
I have been quite strict with myself on not doing 'just that' , I do not maintain continuos record of me anywhere and never did .

You do sound like a smart person but the ways you've used to 'stand me up' here repeatedly suggest I should not trust you, myself and the forum ..
which is after all, what we both know .

So also , I'll better stop here before I'd tell some more truth .