No, Jim Willie, the next world money will NOT be gold backed.

[ghostrider]

Thanks Paul I needed a good Monday night video for my studies...

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by ghostrider (here)
Thanks Paul I needed a good Monday night video for my studies...

Well, I certainly want to do what I can to assist in your studies.

Here's the just posted second part of that recent interview of Catherine Austin Fitts by the Dark Journalist:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=j-cqmJCFGUc

At the 23 minute mark, Fitts offers another couple of reasons for the "war on cash":

1. A world-wide monetary system needs to dramatically reduce the cost per transaction. The poorer 90% of the world cannot afford the per-transaction costs inherent in the current Western banking system. Making global monetary transactions all digital and automated, using block chain technology, brings down the cost dramatically.
2. Also it's a control point. The Globalists never let a new technology lose unless they have a back door, a way to use the technology to collect intelligence and enforce control.

At 32 minutes, Fitts observes that it makes no sense to her to trust Bitcoin. Crypto currencies are going to happen, but current implementations of them, including Bitcoin, are like volatile startups. You can easily lose everything you put in them.

[ozmirage]

Seeking a "backed" currency is part of money madness.

FWIW - World supply of gold is approx. 5.6 billion ounces. World population : over 7 billion. Do the math. Less than one ounce per capita.
(In terms of the Coinage Act of 1792, that is around $16 per capita)

Scarce and precious metal should have never been used as a medium of exchange. But that's how usurers get rich - extending credit where there is a money drought.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by ozmirage (here)
Scarce and precious metal should have never been used as a medium of exchange. But that's how usurers get rich - extending credit where there is a money drought.

However, and unfortunately, the replacement for precious metal backed currencies which the Money Masters have forced on humanity this last century is even worse - debt money.

Bankers have a monopoly on issuing new money, by means of issuing new debt, to individuals, corporations and governments. There is no longer any practical limit on how much such new currency they might so issue, and the debt attached to that new money imposes a burden on the debtor that, once sufficiently large amounts of debt are issued, can never be repaid, unto the seventh generation.

The power to issue both new money, and new debt "backing" that money has provided immense power to the Banksters.

Precious metal currency sucked, as you observe, but at least its suckage had some practical limits.

===

Oh - and I quite doubt that there is any chance of a monetary system backed entirely and solely by the single metal gold. Gold is (was) for the "big" stuff, such as major reserves, savings, contracts and transactions. Silver is (was) the "poor man's gold", available for every day transactions between ordinary people.

Key events in the destruction of the dual metal monetary system in the US:

William Jennings Bryan's famous "Cross of Gold" Speech, in 1896, marked the last, failed, gasp of a dual metal monetary system in the US. Many mid-west farmers in the US were driven into bankruptcy, when the terms of their debts were changed from (more available) silver to the (difficult to get) gold.

The institution of the Federal Reserve in 1913, and President Franklin D. Roosevelt's (FDR's) confiscation of gold in 1933, marked the end of gold as a monetary basis in the US, except between nations.

President Richard M. Nixon's "closing the gold window" in 1971 marked the end of gold settlement of U.S. Dollar trade imbalances, even between nations.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Paul (here)
At 32 minutes, Fitts observes that it makes no sense to her to trust Bitcoin. Crypto currencies are going to happen, but current implementations of them, including Bitcoin, are like volatile startups. You can easily lose everything you put in them.

Here's a relevant example of the hazards of current crypto-currency, posted today at WolfStreet.com: Cryptocurrency Crash - These are dangerous markets!. The article describes a recent crypto-currency crash, following a major security breach and theft of over $50 million. The enthusiasts of crypto-currency are realizing that "regulation is necessary. Now we agree overregulation is bad, which is what much of the financial system is suffering from now, but zero regulation is just as dumb. To think cryptocurrencies could somehow avoid any type regulation is stupid. It goes back to cases of fraud and stolen assets. There needs to be rules in place so that the right people are prosecuted and victims compensated."

[robinr1]

what do u propose humans use as a medium of exchange? also could u please explain your correlation between using gold and silver as a currency and credit? bc I'm not seeing it....

are u proposing an unbacked currency? which is what we have now

tia..


robin

Posted by ozmirage (here)
Seeking a "backed" currency is part of money madness.

FWIW - World supply of gold is approx. 5.6 billion ounces. World population : over 7 billion. Do the math. Less than one ounce per capita.
(In terms of the Coinage Act of 1792, that is around $16 per capita)

Scarce and precious metal should have never been used as a medium of exchange. But that's how usurers get rich - extending credit where there is a money drought.

[ThePythonicCow]

.

Money - what is it, and what is it good for?

In a simple economy, in which things of value either cannot be bought and sold (such as food, water, and air if in abundance, and friends, family and reputation), or if available in trade, have a stable or declining long term value, money can be used in a generalized form of barter: "I'll trade you two of these for three of those" becomes "I'll trade you two of those for three sea shells."

But in a complex economy, something happens that is far more powerful, yet a little more difficult to understand. Much of what has value in a complex society, such as factories, roads, ships, advanced technology, corporate structures, ... has its value proposition spread out over time. If one can get funding, one could reasonably choose to spend a year and a billion dollars building a new semiconductor factory, if one could reasonably expect to gain ten billion dollars worth of profit from the products made there, in the subsequent ten years.

Ants and bees have a similar problem - how to finance large colonies and hives, which will not return the value of their investment until sometime later. They solve this problem by genetic and social control of each member of the community, such that all are dedicated to "doing their part" for the common good.

The free human spirit finds such "1984 Orwellian" pressure for conformity to the common good to be abhorrent.

So a means to realize the decisions (whether by a central planning committee, or by fifty million Frenchmen) as to where to invest in future productivity improvements (factories, roads, ...) is required, and that requires a generic, "money" like mechanism, interchangeable for a wide variety of goods and services, with somewhat predictable value, over long periods of time.

Also, and here's where it gets a bit more difficult to understand, a competent analyst will benefit from an understanding of interest rates.

Let's say I have a choice of collecting $1000 now, or $1100 a year from now. If interest rates are 10% per year, then these choices are about equal ... the $1100, at 10% per year, is equivalent in value to the $1000 now. If interest rates are lower, then I'd be better off waiting the year to collect the $1100, if I can wait. If interest rates are higher, I'd be better off taking the $1000 now, and investing it in something better.

Such considerations effect where money is invested in future productivity enhancements. Of course other factors apply as well, such as risk, community and cultural preferences, and the value that one places on obtaining control over future markets, regions and technology. In times of high interest rates, investments for longer term projects will demand significantly higher expected returns.

So for complex economies, as with human civilization for the several centuries at least, not only does the present value of money matter, in terms of what it can purchase, but also the likely future value matters, in terms of how much more (or less) it might obtain in the future, perhaps after investing in some productivity enhancement (such as getting a college degree or building a factory).

In complex economies, money trades not only across space, and between diverse goods and services, but also across time. Whatever generally passes for money takes on immense and inherent value. It funds the world's trade and the world's immense and amazingly complex infrastructure build up. Massive contracts, spanning decades, are written in units of that money. Understanding the "time value of money" (how the value of investable money changes over time) is essential to analyzing complex economies.

The "backing" of money is a misuse of a term, in my view. In a simple economy, where money is a generalized form of barter, whose changing value over longer periods of time is of little consequence, then it may be a practical issue whether sea shells or beaver skins are used for money. But in a complex economy, where immense infrastructure, supply chains, technology advancements, and contracts span long periods of time, vast distances, and vast amounts of value, the primary significance of the money's "backing" is actually in how new money is generated and who controls that generation.

The form in which new money is generated, whether it be as debt notes, gold notes, government dictate (fiat money), Bitcoin or other such crypto currency, or bills of trade or exchange is secondary to the essential way in which that money is used, but is of immense importance to both the quality of the money, and the harm or good that form of money has.

In a complex economy, gold "backed" money, (issued as a promise to exchange for some gold) does not acquire its primary value in the economy from the gold; rather limiting the generation of new money to the quantities of gold available serves to limit the quantity of new money issued, and to limit who can issue it. The limit can be rather severe, holding the money in circulation to a nearly constant amount (unless a major new gold lode is found), not allowing for seasonal fluctuations in economic activity or changes in the rate of potential growth or shrinkage of the economy based on weather, new technology, migrations, or other major factors.

The use of 90 day bills of trade or exchange, and of other such methods of financing international trade, handles the seasonal ups and downs of the economy better. Promises by the eventual seller of a product to pay for the product become negotiable financial documents that can be used by the manufacturer, shipper and distributor to fund their operations, with a reliable expectation of getting paid later on (typically within 90 days), if they fulfill their role in the process. However such trade funding doesn't handle longer term projects, or more speculative projects that lack an up front buyer, ready to promise payment.

Fiat money is issued by a government. Typically that works OK, until it doesn't. The keys are:

1. do the governments issue the new money to fund projects and services of genuine value to their nation or region, or do they issue the new money to benefit themselves and the powerful interests who have gained control over them, and,
2. do the governments issue a responsible amount of money, reliably adjusting the amount of money in circulation to track the current level of economic activity, or do they start issuing too much money, trying to buy more favor and power.

It seems that sooner or later, the answer is always the second choices, resulting in great and long term harm to the governed people.

Crypto currencies are generated by applying computing power to discover more numbers with particular properties. They are in their infancy, and have been subject to major theft and fraud, to control by a single party with superior compute power, to volatile pricing which makes them unsuitable for long term contracts between major parties, and to having too small a market place to handle the monetization of large or high volume markets. They are not presently, nor have ever been, a serious competitor as a major monetary base. However, the block chain technology underlying them is a serious competitor for use in future all digital currencies, replacing the centuries old double entry bookkeeping still in use currently, in various computerized forms.

Debt money, which is created ex nihilo by a bank when granting a new loan, in exchange for a mortgage or promissory note, is the most harmful form of money that is widely known to humanity. The immense power inherent in being the authorized creator of new money is vested in banking corporations, whose primary goals are not the well being of humanity, but rather the profits and powers sought by its owners and controllers. Corporations have no morality in the sense of humanity; they seek profit, power and monopoly. They don't die, they can't be imprisoned, and they are immune from many of the cultural and institutional limits imposed on individuals. The debt paper (mortgage or promissory note) created at the time of the loan can extract payments, interests and eventually forfeiture of property and income, years and generations into the future.

Humanity lacks any honest, capable, and incorruptible institutions or individuals of both sufficient power and sufficient integrity to honorably control the generation of new money for a prolonged period of time.

Our civilization's capital requirements (the funding and valuation of long term investments) would seem to require either a regimented humanity (ant or bee like) or an advanced monetary system. We have chosen (or had chosen for us) the later, but we, human civilization, have so far been unable to arrive at any form of such a monetary system that will sustain a long term, healthy civilization, beneficial to its people and its planet.

In short, the proper means of funding of an advanced civilization is perhaps humanity's greatest unsolved problem.

[ThePythonicCow]

Comment on my post just above: It's long, and a bit involved, but at first blush, I will admit to being rather proud of it. It believe that it provides a more accurate description of the role of money in a complex economy, than anything I've read so far, and that it dispels a number of common misconceptions regarding such.

===

P.S. -- See however my Post #30, below, for an important correction to my closing comment above.

[ozmirage]

Part of the problem is that the answer is not acceptable to people indoctrinated with "money madness."
There is no one to one correspondence with the marketplace of goods and services and the finite supply of money tokens.
Worse, the eCONomists keep apologizing for usury (the abomination).

Posted by robinr1 (here)
what do u propose humans use as a medium of exchange? also could u please explain your correlation between using gold and silver as a currency and credit? bc I'm not seeing it....

are u proposing an unbacked currency? which is what we have now

Posted by ozmirage (here)
Seeking a "backed" currency is part of money madness.

FWIW - World supply of gold is approx. 5.6 billion ounces. World population : over 7 billion. Do the math. Less than one ounce per capita.
(In terms of the Coinage Act of 1792, that is around $16 per capita)

Scarce and precious metal should have never been used as a medium of exchange. But that's how usurers get rich - extending credit where there is a money drought.

Long story here:
Money Madness
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...-Money-Madness

P.S. - If the purpose of money is to facilitate trade, then "saving money" defeats its purpose. All you can truly store are goods and objects, not money.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Paul (here)
Our civilization's capital requirements (the funding and valuation of long term investments) would seem to require either a regimented humanity (ant or bee like) or an advanced monetary system. We have chosen (or had chosen for us) the later, but we, human civilization, have so far been unable to arrive at any form of such a monetary system that will sustain a long term, healthy civilization, beneficial to its people and its planet.

In short, the proper means of funding of an advanced civilization is perhaps humanity's greatest unsolved problem.

In light of the comments of Catherine Austin Fitts, near the end of her interview above, I am likely misstating this problem.

Fitts suggests that our civilization is not a closed system, which we are left to manage, or mismanage, by our own devices and decisions. My statement that humanity needs to arrive at a better method of funding its complex economy was stated from the perspective of humanity being a closed civilization ... it's just us, down here, on this nice little planet, essentially all on our own, facing a difficult problem.

Fitts suggests rather that our civilization is an open system, part of a more extended arrangement with others, which we might call aliens within more advanced civilizations.

Humanity, from this perspective, is more like one branch of a corporation. Humanity does not choose its own structure, finances, or missions, for its own purposes, independently and of its own free will. Rather we are managed within a larger organization, instructed, organized and empowered to accomplish certain objectives, in certain ways, with certain means, within certain limits. In that view, whether or not humanity, its civilization, and the planet (or solar system) that it inhabits will thrive in the future will depend in considerable part on the decisions and intentions of this larger organization (or organizations.)

[ThePythonicCow]

In light of my Post #27 and Post #30 above, I am even more confident than when I began this thread that the world's next monetary system will NOT be gold backed. Gold is one of many items, with its own intriguing properties and history, the hype for which will wax and wane, as an investable item, for various purposes of propaganda and profit.

[PathWalker]

Posted by Paul (here)
Money - what is it, and what is it good for?

A regimented humanity (ant or bee like) or an advanced monetary system. We have chosen (or had chosen for us) the later, but we, human civilization, have so far been unable to arrive at any form of such a monetary system that will sustain a long term, healthy civilization, beneficial to its people and its planet.

1. I suggest human on earth are enslaved to a controlling system. Money is one of the control system mechanisms, to create lack and shortage.
2. In order to make a choice there should be options. The alternative to the money system I know is to be isolated self sustainable economy (Kibbutz model has failed as well). Or state controlled wealth with no personal ownership.
I am open for more options for society with no money.

Thank you Paul for great article.
The first part is explaining the importance of investments. And investment requires means of exchange therefore money.

I wish to add another definition to money. Using the following 4 postulates/axioms.
1. Agreed value (basis for any barter deal).
2. Storage of wealth (real estate and land can also be considered as money in this sense).
3. Transferable across deals (money can be exchanged).
4. Based on the respect of ownership (you own yours, I own mine).

You break any of the above postulate you break the money system. Each postulate emerged into an industry of its own.

As for the types of money, it is a matter of the contemporary technology to enslave the masses, and generate greed.
The wealth is and always was centralized. Used as a mean for control.

Inventing money systems will not change the wealth distribution. Only change the controlling power.

The way to improve wealth distribution is to create abundance. I do not see this manifesting soon with a greed driven society.
Yet I am optimistic about our spiritual growth.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Paul (here)

...

Fiat money is issued by a government. Typically that works OK, until it doesn't. The keys are:

1. do the governments issue the new money to fund projects and services of genuine value to their nation or region, or do they issue the new money to benefit themselves and the powerful interests who have gained control over them, and,
2. do the governments issue a responsible amount of money, reliably adjusting the amount of money in circulation to track the current level of economic activity, or do they start issuing too much money, trying to buy more favor and power.

It seems that sooner or later, the answer is always the second choices, resulting in great and long term harm to the governed people.

...

Debt money, which is created ex nihilo by a bank when granting a new loan, in exchange for a mortgage or promissory note, is the most harmful form of money that is widely known to humanity. The immense power inherent in being the authorized creator of new money is vested in banking corporations, whose primary goals are not the well being of humanity, but rather the profits and powers sought by its owners and controllers. Corporations have no morality in the sense of humanity; they seek profit, power and monopoly. They don't die, they can't be imprisoned, and they are immune from many of the cultural and institutional limits imposed on individuals. The debt paper (mortgage or promissory note) created at the time of the loan can extract payments, interests and eventually forfeiture of property and income, years and generations into the future.

...

Debt money is subject to the same key concerns as fiat money, or any other method of money issuance that is controlled by the issuer:

1. Is the money issued for purposes beneficial to the community, or to the lender.
2. Is the money issued in amounts in stable proportion to the level of economic activity, or lent in excess amounts, to the short term advantage of the lender, and the long term debt enslavement of the debtor.

And, as with fiat money, it seems that invariably, sooner or later, the answer is always the second choices, resulting in great and long term harm to the governed people.

===

Another parallel may be quite illuminating here.

We know that the first world abuses the third world, "lending" them money to steal their resources and more money to provoke and fund their wars against each other. A number of major Anglo-American-European institutions participate in this raping and pillaging of the rest of the world (*), including such as institutions as the CIA, the World Bank, the IMF, the BIS, the big Western banks, the Federal Reserve, the US and UK governments, ... The land, resources, and people of many other nations have been destroyed this way. John Perkins has written of this in his Confessions of an Economic Hit Man works.

What Catherine Austin Fitts is hinting at, with good reason I believe, in her comments at the end of the second part of her latest Dark Journalist interview, posted above, regarding this planet's economy and finances being an open system, not a closed system, is that someone else, "out there", is abusing human civilization just as the "First World" nations and institutions here on earth are abusing the other nations, people and regions on this planet.

By saying "open", rather than "closed", Fitts is saying that you cannot understand the financial numbers of major corporations, institutions and nations on this planet if you start from the premise that we, here on earth, are essentially isolated. Someone or something else, outside of what is publicly known, is sucking truly immense amounts of resources and material from earth.

(*) Actually these dastardly institutions I listed above are raping and pillaging all the nations, not just the other second or third world nations.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by PathWalker (here)
Inventing money systems will not change the wealth distribution. Only change the controlling power.

Yes. There is a dark power ruling over humanity, using the monetary system du jour. As you so aptly wrote, the choice of monetary systems "is a matter of [using] the contemporary technology to enslave the masses."

Posted by PathWalker (here)
The way to improve wealth distribution is to create abundance. I do not see this manifesting soon with a greed driven society.
Yet I am optimistic about our spiritual growth.

If, as Fitts suggests, and as I agree, human civilization is not a closed, isolated, self-contained system, but rather an open system, manipulated and mined (for various physical and psychic resources and energies) from afar, then a situation of abundance here on earth would not be a means to improve our lot, but rather a welcome indicator that our lot had somehow been improved, by some other means.

First the ultimate evil oppressor must be seen and over thrown.

I oscillate back and forth between thinking that this oppressor is (1) a portion of humanity that has passed down secret "priestly" knowledge from the great ante-deluvian civilizations, or (2) off world, non-human, alien species and civilizations harvesting earth just as Western institutions harvest bananas and oil from third world nations.

Usually, I suspect it is both, with the inner most circle of human "priests" supported and manipulated by aliens, just as the most powerful tyrants of third world nations are supported and manipulated (before being thrown under the bus) by humanity's first world institutions.

[ThePythonicCow]

In light of the above, one can explain some of what's happening in world affairs in the following ways.

Just as third world tyrants, stooges of the Western institutions, are often thrown under the bus, assassinated or exiled, when they are no longer of use, to be replaced with some other stooge or some form of anarchy, similarly it seems that the Bush/Clinton/Neocon crime syndicates of the West are at risk of being thrown under the bus soon, once sufficient outrage is generated against them.

Some of the financial institutions, such as Deutsche Bank (where some of the most toxic financial assets and derivatives have been accumulated) will likely be demolished as well. The common tactic of salvaging the still solvent parts of a failing bank by separating the bank into a "good bank" and a "bad bank", letting the good bank continue, and dissolving the bad bank, will not work with Deutsche Bank. This is because Deutsche Bank is the bad bank, and has been since it was forced to acquire Bankers Trust in November 1998, thus moving the bank (Bankers Trust) responsible for some of the most fraudulent derivatives trading out of US legal jurisdiction, protecting that activity from further legal prosecution in US courts.

Most interestingly, for someone like myself who has been studying such matters for a long time now, it appears that the global monetary system, currently based on the US Petro-Narco-Fraud-Debt-Dollar, is coming up on a major reset. Just as urban renewal projects are very disruptive to the people and communities who lived there before, and whose buildings are all torn down, similar a major reset of the world's monetary system, likely to something making more intensive use of the new technology du jour (ubiquitous digital computers and communication) will be very disruptive to everything entangled with the world's monetary system.

[Ba-ba-Ra]

I encourage watching the following 2 videos. I thought I knew a lot about Capitalism, but Wolff's explanation taught me a great deal, especially about American Capitalism - he also offers a solution.

The 2nd video is a brief introduction to a documentary "ShiftChange.org" AND a wonderful tour of Mondragon the biggest and most successful co-op on this planet. Both of these video will introduce an option for our future.

Professor Economist Richard Wolff 2016 Why it will happen again unless we do this

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HDH5LybwahI

Richard Wolff on the Mondragon cooperatives

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=mKbukSeZ29o

[ozmirage]

FYI: The following about money is only in reference to American law.

REAL MONEY - Money which has real metallic, intrinsic value as distinguished from paper currency, checks and drafts.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1264

MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005

NOTE - An instrument containing an express and absolute promise of signer (i.e. maker) to pay to a specified person or order, or bearer, a definite sum of money at a specified time. An instrument that is a promise to pay other than a certificate of deposit. U.C.C. 3-104(2)(d)
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1060

FIAT MONEY. Paper currency not backed by gold or silver.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. P.623

TENDER - An offer of money ... Legal tender is that kind of coin, money, or circulating medium which the law compels a creditor to accept in payment of his debt, when tendered by the debtor in the right amount.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1467

. . . . .

"Federal reserve notes are legal tender in absence of objection thereto."
MacLeod v. Hoover (1925) 159 La 244, 105 So. 305

All duly enumerated American socialists cannot object to the tender of the notes that THEY are obligated parties to. (thanks to FICA)
FRNs are NOT MONEY but are legal tender on the obligated party of those notes - the Federal government (12 USC Sec. 411) . . . AND the 320 million enumerated socialists (Social Security Act of 1935).

Recapping:

● Lawful money = gold / silver coin (aka real money)
● Money = lawful money or currency (i.e., certificates which are receipts for real money in the vault)
● Notes are not money, by law, nor are they “fiat” because they’re debt (negative value)

Holding a note in your hand does not give it face value. It may be legal tender at face value to an obligated party on said note, but that does not give it value.

If you emit an IOU, “I, John Doe, owe the bearer one dollar,” what value does it have? Did you give a dollar to the note holder? No. You gave nothing of value - only a promise to pay in the future. Not fiat. Minus one dollar.

Until the note is extinguished by redemption, it is a minus value.

• Fiat currency is not debt, is not minus, and is not redeemable.
• Notes are not fiat, being redeemable, in lawful money.

Repudiated notes of a bankrupted government underwritten by 320 million human resources, via FICA, are still not fiat.

BUT if you are an obligated party (via FICA) on said note, beware when the creditor comes after you and yours!

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by ozmirage (here)
Recapping:

● Lawful money = gold / silver coin (aka real money)
● Money = lawful money or currency (i.e., certificates which are receipts for real money in the vault)
● Notes are not money, by law, nor are they “fiat” because they’re debt (negative value)

Holding a note in your hand does not give it face value. It may be legal tender at face value to an obligated party on said note, but that does not give it value.

If you emit an IOU, “I, John Doe, owe the bearer one dollar,” what value does it have? Did you give a dollar to the note holder? No. You gave nothing of value - only a promise to pay in the future. Not fiat. Minus one dollar.

Until the note is extinguished by redemption, it is a minus value.

That may be a proper reading of Black's Law Dictionary, however it is not my understanding of what actually happens in the world's (America or elsewhere, wherever usury is allowed) current financial and monetary system

When a bank extends a loan to a client, be that an individual, corporation or government, two items of self-canceling value are created by the bank, simultaneously, at the same time, on the bank's books.

The debtor gets immediate funds, and the bank gets some sort of debt paper, such as a mortgage, a loan agreement, or a bond such as the grand daddy of all debt paper in the world's current monetary system, US Treasury bills (under 2 years), notes (2 to 10 years), and bonds (over 10 years.)

That debt paper has value. If I gifted you a big stack of Treasury bonds, I am sure you'd kind enough to write me a thank-you note, before enjoying your new found wealth. Their value is in their promised returns in interest payments, paid by the debtor, and eventual redemption of their face value, also by the debtor, when they reach their termination date.

This method of lending new money into existence is essentially and fundamentally a monetary method rising out of double entry bookkeeping, which has been around at least since Luca Pacioli of Venice, a monk, magician and lover of numbers, wrote about double entry bookkeeping, in 1494.

Extending a loan creates two offsetting entries in the bank's books. The bank trades cash now for repayment with interest later. The discounted value of the future repayments is equal to the present value of the cash dispersed, so the banks books remain balanced. But the bank gets to create the cash it disperses to the debtor ex nihilo, while it gets to immediately credit its assets with the discounted value of that debt paper, with the option to sell that paper at any time into the vast market for exchanging debt paper.

That IOU is almost always worth some positive value, unless it has already completely defaulted to zero value.

Depending on the credit worthiness of the debtor, it may well be worth nearly its future full face redemption value. IOU's from the US Treasury have been increasing in value, in the open market, almost non-stop, since the early 1980's. This is usually reported as declining interest rates on US Treasury debt, from some 15 or 20 % at its peak, when Greenspan spiked the Fed's benchmark interest rates in the early 1980's, continuing through the present when Treasury interest rates are in the near 0 to 2 % range, depending on the term of the instrument. When the market value of a given piece of debt paper increases, its imputed interest rate declines proportionately ... a strict and simple correlation.

Until the note is extinguished by redemption or default, it has a positive value (an asset of positive value on the books of its holder.)

[ThePythonicCow]

ozmirage replied to my latest post just above, with a couple more posts continuing to present his understanding of our money system. His understanding is quite different than mine, and after a point, in my view, distracts from the particular focus of this thread.

So I have split his two reply posts to the separate thread: A more legalistic view of our money (Split from: No, Jim Willie, the next world money will NOT be gold backed.).

In this present thread, I am presenting a fresh synthesis of various explanations of our civilizations monetary system, and a bit about where I think it is headed.

Not surprisingly, neither ozmirage nor I endorse any of the main stream economics theories. But I also do not endorse what appears to me to be the more legalistic theories, when it comes to understanding the true, long term, nature of our civilization's various monetary systems.

[regnak]

Electronic money is the way the powers that be are going this is to stop bank runs and to collect every cent in taxes ( well they are broke )

America Federal Reserve was original with regional interest rates so every area of America could vary interest rates by one percent up or down. The Federal reserve could only buy corporate paper not government they were seen as the lender of last resort because in the Great depression there was no money available for Banks which made the great depression much worse bank runs .

However during World War two they ( Federal reserve )were told buy government debt and the regional interest rates was stopped the money the Federal reserve prints is peanuts to the money Congress prints Trillions. United states congress likes for the Federal Reserve to take the blame if things go wrong . Unlimited printing ( profits for the federal reserve ) is not allowed and is capped by law by the Treasury department .