Age of Consent

[TargeT]

Posted by music (here)
This will be my last post on the matter, so as not to de-rail this thread intent of focussing ONLY on the age of consent. My input is that the age of consent CANNOT be considered in isolation from Monarch programming and the sexualisation of children through mass media. But of course, feel free to continue, in a discussion which appears to me to centred around guys saying how young they were when they first did it, or how they had a Mrs Robinson-type figure in their youth.

http://whale.to/b/sexualizing_children.html

Oh I don't know, there's a lot of options other than "here's how to raise your kids by NBC"... there are a lot of possibilities out there....

My children (mostly girls), even my 9 year old girl (youngest) know how to crush a trachea and when the ONLY time you would do that is (most can (not all, yet) successfully perform an arm bar from the standing position). There are ways to do things, they are not always known by everyone.. I choose absolute knowledge over anything else. If you believe in free will you cannot do anything else, IMO.

Read those studies about impulse and brain development all you want; environment is more influential... ALWAYS.. we have learned this, it will soon become common knowledge.

I reject your argument, again. from experience and from personal knowledge. (this is not to say there are not a multitude of growths that need to happen through out life, but full, un-yielding education about these, the consequences and the possible choices and likely outcomes (from a genuine place of experience)are paramount to all else.)

Things CAN be done better... it takes the right person to actually do it. the entire frame shifts and your additions seem "a bridge too far". Do it right, or else... don't bother. (This is an expression of my frustration with the majority of parents I meet, not targeted at any individual; I do not know if there are more than a handful doing what I do, but I do know there are a lot.. just not where I am, or anywhere I know of personally.)

[boutreality]

Part of making sure things do get done better is having these discussions, with these stances being taken for these reasons. Like you said, we're already past 7 billion and decency is the majority.

[KiwiElf]

@ Music - it wasn't my intention to "brag & boast" about my "youthful sexual encounters" - I was just stating it the "way it is/was" for me and many of my friends when we were wayyy under the "legal AoC". Nor do I think those experiences were "abnormal" (at least, not in this country).

I posted this on another thread and it's relevant here (edited):

ooooof this is a polarising subject! Everyone reaches puberty at different ages; for some it may be as early as 7 and for others it may be as late as 17-18 - the average is around 12-13 yrs. Physical maturity is one thing, what about emotional maturity?

If we were honest about this tho, many start experimenting with sex at around puberty, or even earlier (just not usually with adults!)

In some Pacific Island, Asian and tribal cultures, it's considered quite "normal" for an older family member to "physically teach" a younger family member about the "birds and the bees" (altho this is rarely talked about to outsiders); this is usually determined when that person reaches puberty. So by "our" standards, we're talking pedophiles and incest! To them, it's "normal". (And who are we to judge?)

The ancient Samurai of Japan also taught their "young trainees" (some very young) in ahem,... more than just martial arts and sword play, shall we say?

The "cabin boys" of ancient Naval & maritime legend, weren't just put on a ship to make cups of tea!

(In all of the above it is generally consenting).

This was quite common practise globally until about a Century ago.

@ boutreality
With respect, "Things being done better" and "decency" are very subjective opinions, (and btw, irrespective of what we believe or agree with, there is absolutely no psychological evidence to support that consenting sex between a "minor" and an "adult" - whatever that is in various countries - is a very "grey area" - does any any harm to the "minor". None. Period: ("Sexual Knowledge" 1972, & revised editions (and other titles), by Sexologist, Günther Hunold)

Predators, on the other hand, are predators, irrespective of age (I'm now talking sexual abuse:molestation, uninvited, unwanted and/or taking advantage of, or forced sexual encounters with said minors in certain situations, ie grooming, drugging, forcing, rape etc).

"Sex" should also not be ambiguously referred to as "sex" when it really means "penetration".

Perhaps it's appropriate to examine what the age of consent is in other countries and why this is such a "mess" of opinion: what might be a "pedophile" in the US isn't necessarily so in NZ, Japan or the Netherlands (where a "minor" could be anywhere under the ages of 12, 14, 16 or 18 years).

Some cultures have no age limit at all and I certainly don't agree with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform

[greybeard]

Posted by KiwiElf (here)
@ Music - it wasn't my intention to "brag & boast" about my "youthful sexual encounters" - I was just stating it the "way it is/was" for me and many of my friends when we were wayyy under the "legal AoC". Nor do I think those experiences were "abnormal" (at least, not in this country).

I posted this on another thread and it's relevant here (edited):

ooooof this is a polarising subject! Everyone reaches puberty at different ages; for some it may be as early as 7 and for others it may be as late as 17-18 - the average is around 12-13 yrs. Physical maturity is one thing, what about emotional maturity?

If we were honest about this tho, many start experimenting with sex at around puberty, or even earlier (just not usually with adults!)

In some Pacific Island, Asian and tribal cultures, it's considered quite "normal" for an older family member to "physically teach" a younger family member about the "birds and the bees" (altho this is rarely talked about to outsiders); this is usually determined when that person reaches puberty. So by "our" standards, we're talking pedophiles and incest! To them, it's "normal". (And who are we to judge?)

The ancient Samurai of Japan also taught their "young trainees" (some very young) in ahem,... more than just martial arts and sword play, shall we say?

The "cabin boys" of ancient Naval & maritime legend, weren't just put on a ship to make cups of tea!

(In all of the above it is generally consenting).

This was quite common practise globally until about a Century ago.

@ boutreality
With respect, "Things being done better" and "decency" are very subjective opinions, (and btw, irrespective of what we believe or agree with, there is absolutely no psychological evidence to support that consenting sex between a "minor" and an "adult" - whatever that is in various countries - a very "grey area" - does any any harm to the "minor". None. Period:

Predators, on the other hand, are predators, irrespective of age (I'm talking uninvited, unwanted and/or taking advantage of, or forced sexual encounters with said minors in certain situations, ie grooming, drugging, forcing, rape etc).

Perhaps it's appropriate to examine what the age of consent is in other countries and why this is such a "mess" of opinion: what might be a "pedophile" in the US isn't necessarily so in Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

I agree with your posts Kiwi
If my peers were to believed my virginity at the age of 15 would seem to be a rarity.

A lot of hang ups are created with regard to sex.

Being honest if it was not for my upbringing and the fear of getting a girl pregnant--fear of buying contraceptives fear etc. I would have enjoyed sex at an earlier age, as the rest of my peer group seemed to have done.

If you take away the fears what do you have--an enjoyable experience for both the girl and boy--obviously there has to be contraception.
Im not talking promiscuity but if there is a genuine equal attraction why not, particularly in an ongoing relationship!!!

I can see why there has to be a legal age limit --You can get married at Sixteen in Scotland---If I was to set an age of consent it would be sixteen but at times there are mitigating circumstances ie a level of maturity beyond physical age.

I am sorry for those that were abused but this thread is no primarily about that.

Chris

[KiwiElf]

Oops -was in the process of editing my post greybeard! (It reads a little differently now.)

I too have utmost respect and empathy for those who have been sexually abused (at any age). Nor did I translate the subject of this thread to be about that. My deepest apologies to anyone I may have inadvertantly offended.

[boutreality]

Kiwielf-
The comment encapsulated a process that the world is going (goes) through. In that regard your comment adds a dimension according to what you thought I had missed; another part of the process.

And regarding your source, the articles/data I cite are 20yrs+ newer than 1972; another part of this process- current science.

[KiwiElf]

Thanks for clarifying boutreality - that was just one source I could remember off the top of my head; 1972 was the first edition; - I did say "& revised editions (and other titles)" - are quite up-to-date

[DNA]

Posted by music (here)
This will be my last post on the matter, so as not to de-rail this thread intent of focussing ONLY on the age of consent. My input is that the age of consent CANNOT be considered in isolation from Monarch programming and the sexualisation of children through mass media.

My ears are open to your complaint here, and I've familiarized myself with the stories of those who have come forward detailing what has happened to them in so far as what amounts to torture and sexual torture at that through the monarch program.

I do not understand how the age of consent is related to the act of sexualizing the minds of children through television. From what I see the sexualizing of children through television is for the most part encouraging the young to preoccupy themselves with sexual thoughts and acts with others closer to their own age. For what we see is that beauty is often made synonymous with youth.

I sometimes think we need a view of what is going on with a historical lens.
Historically speaking, rape and the rape of children has always been a crime that was never pursued for means of adjudication.
Rapists and pedophiles have pretty much had their way historically speaking.
I would say our lifetimes would be the first instance of seeing a law or government attempt to actually do something about this.
So it makes sense to me that there would be awkward processes and failed first and second attempts at getting this right.


I suppose one may ask, "is there an attempt to get this right" or "is this just more obfuscation by the Government in an attempt to lead us astray"?
I honestly think this is an actual attempt at getting this right in so far as my own take.
I look at countries with little or no advancement in female rights, and these are countries where there are no protections put in place for women and or children.
I think the advancement of women in the work place and in law especially has helped to introduce such measures into our society.
I feel the more women we have in advanced positions of leadership, the better (I exclude Hillary from this of course).
The more we look around at the world where countries are not getting it right we can almost make a correlation with what they are not doing in terms of protecting women and children from sexual predators and the suppression of women, women's rights and the opportunity for women to advance into positions of power in that Government.
I think Mike is alluding to the confusion and imperfect nature of the law as it is presently outlined, and I think he is correct for the most part, but I do think there should be an age of consent that protects minors from adults who would pursue such minors if there was nothing to prevent this.
For me the solution is more women in "real" positions of power.