The great wall

[WhiteLove]

I read the article below.

Congress begins to search for funds to help Trump build border wall
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...106-story.html

Is there possibly any greater form of waste of life, than making humans spend time of their life building a border wall for billions of dollars?! What a freaking stupid idea.

If the newly elected US president approves something like that, he must currently be in a state of disrespect for human life...

It will be interesting to follow the development of this, either Trump will not carry through this, which is a sign that the US and the rest of the world moves towards peace, or he will approve and commit to this, which is a sign we are all moving away from peace into a cloud of false stuff that is going to haunt all of us towards a dark future...

My hope is that Trump in the last minute realizes how dense a path like this is and that there are of course much better options out there... If he does not, my hope goes to the american people stopping this, because it is pure waste of everything. The US and the world needs peace, not a wall. Common sense...

Who wants to live in a world where walls become the new norm? It just does not have any real value, it's an idea rooted in fake/false value.

[Chester]

Hi Whitelove, have you ever been to another country?

[WhiteLove]

Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
Hi Whitelove, have you ever been to another country?

Yes, but why are you asking? It is kind of like me asking you whether you have decided to be one of those building the wall?

As I see it, either people lack integrity and build the wall, in which case the persons waste a part of their life without knowing so because they were used, or they do not commit to this and hence there are nobody ready to build any wall because everyone think it is a waste of a part of their life to do so, in which case those persons were not used either... So one option brings life, the other option robs life.

Some are pro the border wall, but when the question comes are they prepared to stand there building the wall... then the story changes...

I think by large the idea of a border wall is distracting, unimportant and a waste of everybody's time. I also feel sorry for those that must build it... (increased risk of suicide)

[turiya]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
I read the article below.

Congress begins to search for funds to help Trump build border wall
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...106-story.html

Is there possibly any greater form of waste of life, than making humans spend time of their life building a border wall for billions of dollars?! What a freaking stupid idea.

If the newly elected US president approves something like that, he must currently be in a state of disrespect for human life...

It will be interesting to follow the development of this, either Trump will not carry through this, which is a sign that the US and the rest of the world moves towards peace, or he will approve and commit to this, which is a sign we are all moving away from peace into a cloud of false stuff that is going to haunt all of us towards a dark future...

My hope is that Trump in the last minute realizes how dense a path like this is and that there are of course much better options out there... If he does not, my hope goes to the american people stopping this, because it is pure waste of everything.

Respect for all human life... for all of Life...
It has first to begin with respect for oneself.
Before one can love the whole rest of the world,
The very first step taken is to loving oneself...
If this first step is missed, then all other steps taken
Will also be missed...

When that cup becomes full... and begins to overflow
Then it begins to flow outwardly towards others...

Have you not learned the lesson yet?

Looking outwardly for Peace,
And It will not be found...
Peace is found within...
When one is at peace with oneself,
Then the rest of the world will be affected, infected, by it...

Peace...

[WhiteLove]

Posted by turiya (here)

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
I read the article below.

Congress begins to search for funds to help Trump build border wall
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...106-story.html

Is there possibly any greater form of waste of life, than making humans spend time of their life building a border wall for billions of dollars?! What a freaking stupid idea.

If the newly elected US president approves something like that, he must currently be in a state of disrespect for human life...

It will be interesting to follow the development of this, either Trump will not carry through this, which is a sign that the US and the rest of the world moves towards peace, or he will approve and commit to this, which is a sign we are all moving away from peace into a cloud of false stuff that is going to haunt all of us towards a dark future...

My hope is that Trump in the last minute realizes how dense a path like this is and that there are of course much better options out there... If he does not, my hope goes to the american people stopping this, because it is pure waste of everything.

Respect for all human life... for all of Life...
It has first to begin with respect for oneself.
Before one can love the whole rest of the world,
The very first step taken is to loving oneself...
If this first step is missed, then all other steps taken
Will also be missed...

When that cup becomes full... and begins to overflow
Then it begins to flow outwardly towards others...

Have you not learned the lesson yet?

Looking outwardly for Peace,
And It will not be found...
Peace is found within...
When one is at peace with oneself,
Then the rest of the world will be affected, infected, by it...

Peace...

Exactly and that is why the idea of a wall becomes obsolete, why do you want to build walls around you when you have peace inside?

Peace is about integration, about forgiveness, about removing limitations that help create separation. It is about thinking from the perspective of the collective as a whole and finding ways of removing that what separates, both from the bottom up perspective as well as the top down perspective. By doing so peace becomes the product. By going in the reverse direction, the efficiency that comes from the exchange of energy drops, because the energy becomes more incompatible in both directions. So globally to bring peace we need to find ways of removing limitations rather than adding more ones. The act of building a border wall could be an act of limiting limitation, but it is not such an act, it is a pure addition of limitation and it is paid by portions of people's lives. I'm so against it...

People are passionate about all kinds of things in life: love, sex, family, truth seeking, business, friendships, doing something important for society, arts etc...

BOOM. Then there are those that are passionate about building a border wall.

[turiya]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Exactly and that is why the idea of a wall becomes obsolete, why do you want to build walls around you when you have peace inside?

Peace is about integration, about forgiveness, about removing limitations that help create separation. It is about thinking from the perspective of the collective as a whole and finding ways of removing that what separates, both from the bottom up perspective as well as the top down perspective. By doing so peace becomes the product. By going in the reverse direction, the efficiency that comes from the exchange of energy drops, because the energy becomes more incompatible in both directions. So globally to bring peace we need to find ways of removing limitations rather than adding more ones. The act of building a border wall could be an act of limiting limitation, but it is not such an act, it is a pure addition of limitation and it is paid by portions of people's lives. I'm so against it...

People are passionate about all kinds of things in life: love, sex, family, truth seeking, business, friendships, doing something important for society, arts etc...

BOOM. Then there are those that are passionate about building a border wall.

Each man / woman has a wall built around himself. It is designed to protect him / her. To ensure health & proper growth. It surrounds him / her continually. It protects him / herself from the world-at-large. It is called 'Ego'. For the human body it is called an "Immune System". To think that man has no use for an ego, for an imune system, one is only dreaming. And not awake.

Not to say that there will not be a time when walls will not be needed. But try living in the inner city without locking your doors. Its fine if you are not attached, either physically or mentally to 'having' things in order to live a civilized life. But the world-at-large is not at present a "civilized" world. Humanity is fooling itself if it is believed that this present world is 'civilized' - it is not - it is pseudo-civilized. It is pretending to be "ciivilized". Humanity has not grown up enough, as of yet, to be truly 'civilized'.

I am not saying that it will never happen - no. But, at present, it is not!
It will come, when it comes. That time is not now.

[WhiteLove]

Posted by turiya (here)

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Exactly and that is why the idea of a wall becomes obsolete, why do you want to build walls around you when you have peace inside?

Peace is about integration, about forgiveness, about removing limitations that help create separation. It is about thinking from the perspective of the collective as a whole and finding ways of removing that what separates, both from the bottom up perspective as well as the top down perspective. By doing so peace becomes the product. By going in the reverse direction, the efficiency that comes from the exchange of energy drops, because the energy becomes more incompatible in both directions. So globally to bring peace we need to find ways of removing limitations rather than adding more ones. The act of building a border wall could be an act of limiting limitation, but it is not such an act, it is a pure addition of limitation and it is paid by portions of people's lives. I'm so against it...

People are passionate about all kinds of things in life: love, sex, family, truth seeking, business, friendships, doing something important for society, arts etc...

BOOM. Then there are those that are passionate about building a border wall.

Each man / woman has a wall built around himself. It is designed to protect him. To ensure health & proper growth. It surrounds him continually. It protects him / herself from the world-at-large. It is called 'Ego'. For the human body it is called an "Immune System". To think that man has no use for an ego, for an imune system, one is only dreaming. And not awake.

Not to say that there will not be a time when walls will not be needed. But trying living in the inner city without locking your doors. Its fine if you are not attached, either physicall or mentally to 'having' things in order to live a civilized life. But the world-at-large is not at present a "civilized" world. Humanity is fooling itself if it is believed that this present world is 'civilized' - it is not - it is pseudo-civilized. It is pretending to be "ciivilized". Humanity is not grown up enough, yet, to be civilized.

I am not saying that it will never happen - no. But, at present, it is not!
It will come, when it comes. That time is not at this time.

Yes, but at a decision point you can either grab the opportunity, take the chance and act towards positive change, or you can decide not to take that chance and move one step closer to the trap. In other words we are not dealing with rocket science issues that mankind must be stuck with for years, decades and centuries, it is just a peaceful idea that must be rooted on the inside of people and political leaders in general and then they automatically take steps of peace, because they know the true power of peace inside. In other words when you move towards peace you move towards protection. By not doing so, you open a can of worms and those you might not have the necessary immune system against... It just makes everything more complex for everybody and makes the peace making process harder. It's just not an act towards peace and long term prosperity for all. Therefore I hope the idea will fade, it's a bad one...

[turiya]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Yes, but at a decision point you can either grab the opportunity, take the chance and act towards positive change, or you can decide not to take that chance and move one step closer to the trap. In other words we are not dealing with rocket science issues that mankind must be stuck with for years, decades and centuries, it is just a peaceful idea that must be rooted on the inside of people and political leaders in general and then they automatically take steps of peace, because they know the true power of peace inside.

You seem to have missed the first thing that I've written...

It has to begin with the first step.
That first step is 'Loving oneself'. This is the very first step.
And we have not been taught to love ourselves. On the contrary, we've been taught to Not love ourselves.
Instead, we've been taught that we 'should' first love others.
Service to others comes first.
That is the wrong first step. Every step taken after that will also be another wrong step. With each wrong step taken, it will taken you further & further away from yourself... toward others... you have forgotten all about yourself...
Sacrafice of one's own self is masochistic!

Not loving oneself is also called masochism.
If you don't hundred percent love yourself, then you are, to a certain degree, a masochist.
Look around, and you will see the world filled with masochists - workaholics, alcohoics, chain smokers, over-eaters, obesity, child abuse, domestic violence, war-mongers, etc., etc., etc.,

If the first step is taken - truly 100% loving oneself -
then everything will fall into place, naturally,
without thinking that something 'should' be done.

Can you truly say & admit to yourself that you love yourself 100%.

[WhiteLove]

Posted by turiya (here)

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Yes, but at a decision point you can either grab the opportunity, take the chance and act towards positive change, or you can decide not to take that chance and move one step closer to the trap. In other words we are not dealing with rocket science issues that mankind must be stuck with for years, decades and centuries, it is just a peaceful idea that must be rooted on the inside of people and political leaders in general and then they automatically take steps of peace, because they know the true power of peace inside.

You seem to have missed the first thing that I've written...

It has to begin with the first step.
That first step is 'Loving oneself'. This is the very first step.
And we have not been taught to love ourselves. On the contrary, we've been taught to Not love ourselves.
Instead, we've been taught that we 'should' first love others.
Service to others comes first.
That is the wrong first step. Every step taken after that will also be another wrong step.

Not loving oneself is also called masochism.
If you don't hundred percent love yourself, then you are, to a certain degree, a masochist.
Look around, and you will see the world filled with masochists - workaholics, alcohoics, chain smokers, over-eaters, obesity, child abuse, domestic violence, war-mongers, etc., etc., etc.,

Yes, but this idea as I see it is density in the intellect chakra, meaning that the idea is based on limitation being necessary in order to reach something greater. So in this case the idea is that you must love yourself first (apply limitation condition), in order to be able to love others. But this idea you can reform by removing the limitation like this: You do not have to love yourself first (no limitation condition applied), in order to be able to love others. (no limitation condition still applied). Believing in this idea releases density in the intellect chakra because it has now released an idea of limitation that was more false and more limiting than the new idea it was replaced by that was more true and less limiting. So you have now totally de-coupled these two... You can love others without conditions. You can love yourself without conditions.

[ramus]

I FOUND THESE LYRICS AWHILE BACK, RIGHT BEFORE I GOT MARRIED IN THE 80,s. THEY MADE ME CRY, FOR I TOO WAS TAUGHT NOT TO LIKE MYSELF. IT TOOK A LONG TIME TO FORGIVE

MYSELF, FOR THAT POSITION,......I ALSO FOUND OUT THAT FORGIVENESS WAS NOT FOR OTHERS WHO HAD WRONGED ME , BUT FOR ME, REACTING TO THE WRONG, INCORRECTLY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYzlVDlE72w

"Greatest Love Of All"

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs
A lonely place to be
And so I learned to depend on me

[Chorus:]
I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

[Chorus]

And if, by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love

[turiya]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Yes, but this idea as I see it is density in the intellect chakra, meaning that the idea is based on limitation being necessary in order to reach something greater. So in this case the idea is that you must love yourself first (apply limitation condition), in order to be able to love others. But this idea you can reform by removing the limitation like this: You do not have to love yourself first (no limitation condition applied), in order to be able to love others. (no limitation condition still applied). Believing in this idea releases density in the intellect chakra because it has now released an idea of limitation that was more false and more limiting than the new idea it was replaced by that was more true and less limiting.

Loving oneself is not a limiting condition. It is not a 'must', It is not a 'have to', it is not a 'should'. Loving oneself is totally natural, inherent to being human. Not loving oneself leads to the consequences of limitation... distrust, feeling of not having enough, comparison, envy, to covet.

The notion of Not loving oneself is a 'limiting condition'. It is an unnatural conditioning. Imposed on the individual by the society, by church, by community, by government. It leads to the manifestation of problems, mentally, physically, psychologically, emotionally & socially. It leads to the notion that one cannot be oneself. That one needs to be someone other than s/he is.

The intellect is information that is accumulated from the world that is outside of oneself.
All the notions of how one 'should' be are accumulated within the intellect... moralities, mores, social norms, conscience... These are imposed from the outside... you do not bring these notions with you upon birth.

Loving oneself is intrinsic to one's own nature.

Upon the birth, the child is bombarded with programming, what is right, wrong, good & what is bad... social norms.
To be accepted by a society one has to learn (programmed) what is acceptable.
One has to be programmed in order to feel that he acceptable...
To be an acceptable conformist, one has to have a lobotomy - intelligence needs to be removed.

Its starts by programming one to Not Love themselves.
Individuals are quite rare to find.
'Individual' means one who is undivided.

[lucidity]

I'm certain Trump is serious about creating this wall.
They have one just like it running around Isreal... if it's good enough for the Israelis...

It shouldn't be too expensive to build this thing, i hear he'll be recruiting prison inmates
to do much of the work.. that's going to give them something constructive to do and
perhaps some of them will learn new, valuable vocational skills that might be useful
when they finish their sentence and return to society.

I think it's a wonderful project. I can't help thinking of the Hoover Dam that provided
work for thousands of labourers after the Great Depression.

One thought though, i think many people are imagining that this wall will keep 'out' the illegal immigrants...
What if the actual purpose of the wall is to stop American citizens escaping ?

[Matt P]

No country can allow unchecked and free flowing immigration and maintain order. There are so many obvious reasons for this. I have lived and worked in several countries around the world and i had to go through a process to do so. Most countries don't just let you move in and then give you free education and healthcare and food/living assistance. It's crazy what the US is doing now. I am all for LEGAL immigration and am against illegal immigration. My relatives came here from other countries legally, following the proper procedures. Our laws are very clear on this but they are not being enforced.

Trump is wise to be considering a wall but i don't necessarily think a physical wall is the way to go. But at least the conversation is begun and being taken seriously. My question is will Trump be wise enough to consider other opinions.

I personally like Gary North's.

Matt

http://www.garynorth.com/public/15899.cfm

Trump's Digital Wall

Gary North - November 16, 2016
Donald Trump used a visual image for "seal off the border." He used a wall.

He isn't going to build a wall. He will not ask Congress for the funding.

He doesn't need to.

The border can be policed by satellites and a few thousand low-cost drones. The technology is cheap. It is available now.

These are cheap drones that carry no missiles. They only carry cameras. There can be night drones and day drones. They can observe what is going on for miles.

Put up 1,000 drones at all times, day and night. Aim their cameras 10 or 20 miles south of the border. Is there a truck coming north toward a desolate area? Meet it with troops.

There will be enough troops on the cheap fenced border to head off 80% of the trucks. If 80% of the trucks can't get their cargo through, the wholesale immigrant business is finished.

Post a thousand troops and drones at the high-crossing areas.

The strategy here is to eliminate the wholesale immigration business. Make the immigrants walk to the border in remote areas. This will drastically reduce the crossings. Move the immigrants from wholesale to retail.

MAKE A DEAL WITH THE COYOTES

Coyotes are the people who take money from desperate would-be illegal immigrants to take them across the border in trucks. They are middlemen.

I propose that Trump make them two-way middlemen.

A coyote brings a truckload of people to the border. On the American side of the border is a border patrol officer who is assigned to an Army unit. He makes the truck driver an offer: "Take them back. Here is $25,000, cash."

Yes, I know: pretty soon there will be trucks loaded with fake immigrants. So, run the initial program for long enough to get the word out: "Don't pay anyone to take you across the border. The gringos have cooked up a deal with the coyotes. The coyotes will take your money. Then they will take the gringos' money to bring you right back." Six months will do it.

If traffic starts back up, re-start the program.

Keep the immigrants on the Mexican side of the border. This way, there will be no expensive court hearings on our side of the border. There will be no ACLU attorney coming to the defense of illegal immigrants in the middle of the night in the South Texas desert. The immigrants will not cross the border. Mexico will retain jurisdiction.

Station enough troops and drones on the border to seal it off.

Better yet, arrange for the coyotes to bring the would-be immigrants to established check points. No muss, no fuss.

But, you say, no sensible coyote would do this. It would kill his business. So, stage it. Hire some Mexican Americans in South Texas to do a fake crossing at a fake border. Rent an old truck. Have an actor pay the "driver" a wad of bills. Use a dash cam. Make it look real. Then post the video. Do one of these a week. Use the same two or three trucks.

Have you ever seen Wag the Dog?

Trump can supply the video crew. He is a master of reality TV.

Keep the drones flying. Let the coyotes know that they will not be able to get their cargoes across the border. "We can see you coming."

Maybe a truck turns around and heads home. The driver does not get $25,000. Word will get out: "Don't pay this guy."

Maybe the driver stops. He gets his $25,000. He drives them back. Word will get out. "Don't pay this guy."

Maybe he unloads them on his side of the border. He gets $25,000. He leaves them. Word will get out. "Don't pay this guy."

If he crosses the border, he gets no money. He loses his truck. He gets no food or water. He is sent back on foot with the others. "Have a nice walk with your friends."

The people who get unloaded will be given two choices: (1) put on a GPS tracking device and start walking back to civilization with food and water supplied by the Americans, or else (2) don't put on the device and get no food or water. There is this threat: "Take off the device before you get to town A, and the next time we catch you trying to cross illegally, you will get no food and water. And we will catch you. Take the device to our local exchange store, and they will give you $100 cash." Of course, they are photographed at the border. Their faces go into a facial recognition data base. If they get caught again, they get no food or water for the hike back. "Buy food and water from your buddy."

Why the exchange store? The store will advertise locally. "If you get caught when our drone system catches the truck that takes you to the border, and if the driver leaves you behind, you can get $100 for the GPS device you will get when you return from the border. We'll make sure you are in our 'caught trying to cross the border' facial recognition system. Then you will get paid."

Word will get out to the coyotes' customer base.

Post Spanish language videos on YouTube. The viewers will see the drones, the troops, and the money exchanges. "Warning: the U.S. government has an arrangement with the coyotes. It pays the coyotes to bring people right back at a profit of $25,000 per truckload. You will pay $1,000 for a one-day round-trip visit to the border. The coyotes will make money both ways."

Put up videos of families walking away from the fence in the middle of the desert. "This is what happens if you try to cross the border in a truck. The drones always spot the trucks. You will be greeted by American troops. Save your money."

Goodbye, wholesale immigrant market. Hello, individual families on foot.

BETA TEST THIS BY LATE APRIL

This would be cheap to implement. The beta-testing could be operational within three months of Trump's inauguration.

Put a bird colonel in charge of this. Offer him two stars if he gets it operational by Christmas, but only one star if it's a day late. Trump can make this offer on January 21. He can ask for volunteers. He will get lots of volunteers by January 23. By February 1, there will be piles of applications.

This colonel would be granted the authortity of a four-star general for this project until December 25, 2017.

The colonel will find holes in the system. Most of them can be plugged. He could then ramp up the program by October 31. It would be working by December 25.

Give the program until December 31, 2018 to work. By then, the flow of illegal aliens will be down by 80%.

Priority for Army promotions would be given to successful captains and majors who cut down immigration rates. The statistics would be simple: "Reduce the immigrants in your sector by 20% this year, and you go to the top five of the short list for promotion." The Mexican border would be the fastest track to stars on the shoulder.

Word would get out. Fast.

CONCLUSIONS

Could Trump do this unilaterally? Of course. He is Commander-in-Chief. Paul Ryan isn't. Mitch McConnell isn't.

Trump doesn't need a wall. He needs only the will.

_________________________________

I authorize you to reprint this article on your blog if you post a link back to this page.

[Chester]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)

Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
Hi Whitelove, have you ever been to another country?

Yes, but why are you asking? It is kind of like me asking you whether you have decided to be one of those building the wall?

As I see it, either people lack integrity and build the wall, in which case the persons waste a part of their life without knowing so because they were used, or they do not commit to this and hence there are nobody ready to build any wall because everyone think it is a waste of a part of their life to do so, in which case those persons were not used either... So one option brings life, the other option robs life.

Some are pro the border wall, but when the question comes are they prepared to stand there building the wall... then the story changes...

I think by large the idea of a border wall is distracting, unimportant and a waste of everybody's time. I also feel sorry for those that must build it...

I asked only because I know plenty of folks who are from the US (and I do not assume you are) who have never been to another country. Not until I was 39 years old had I ever been to another country.

What I experienced in all of the other countries I lived in and visited was how they handled illegal immigration and how they handled the discovery of folks who overstayed visas or otherwise could not prove they were in the country legally. So the purpose of my question was all and only to understand if the points I would like to follow with would be worth my time.

Here's my experience with three countries I have lived in - Note I have visited and worked in 9 other countries including Hong Kong (China), Bangkok (Thailand), the UK (both London and Manchester), Medellin (Colombia), Amsterdam (The Netherlands) and Venezuela. I learned a great deal about how various countries handle immigration, some extremely strict and some less so.

Costa Rica - If you are caught by police or other empowered authorities in Costa Rica without proof that you are there legally and are unable to bribe your way out of the situation you are taken to jail and held until they deport you. In addition, you are not allowed back into Costa Rica again for any reason for 5 years.

I lived in Costa Rica (legally) for over a year and know this is true and have had friends taken to jail (in one case a friend sat in the jail over a week before being deported).

Panama - If you are caught by police or other empowered authorities in Panama without proof that you are there legally and are unable to bribe your way out of the situation you are taken to jail and held until they deport you. In addition, you are not allowed back into Costa Rica again for any reason for at least 5 years.

I lived in Panama (legally) for 5 years. I knew several ladies from Colombia who overstayed their 90 day legal visitor stay, were caught and taken to the immigration jail and then deported.

Costa Rica and Panama (in the north) do not have a wall (Panama has a natural wall between the thin strip of land that connects Panama to Colombia which is a very thick jungle - not 100% solid but close), but both these countries enforce their immigration laws (unless you are able to bribe your way out of a situation).

The US does not enforce their immigration laws anywhere near the same level of enforcement as is found in Costa Rica, Panama and Curacao which I am about to describe.

Curacao -

Curacao has a natural "wall" called the Caribbean Sea.

Curacao provides a “Visitor Pass” good for thirty days to folks coming from countries such as the US and a few neighbors such as Colombia and Venezuela. If you do not leave before the expiration of the thirty days, you are considered to be in Curacao illegally. When a visitor arrives in Curacao, they must produce cash (either US dollars or Curacao Guilders) equivalent to $100 a day for your intended stay. They also check to make sure you have a departure ticket already paid for and the date matches how long you say you will stay in Curacao.

If you are not from a country that is allowed a visitor pass, you must get a visa to enter Curacao legally.

If you are caught by police or other empowered authorities in Curacao without proof that you are there legally then one of two things happen. If you answer questions such that the authorities do not get a feeling you are involved in any criminal activity and you can prove who you are and prove where you are living, you are asked to buy a plane ticket and leave on your own. In this case, the immigration authorities take over and follow your case to ensure that you leave. If you do not leave then they will begin looking for you or have you flagged such that if you are again discovered, they may give you one more chance to leave on your own, but after two or three chances, you are held until deported. Once you have been arrested, they hold you until you leave. They will not even pay for you to leave. They have you call relatives or friends who will buy your plane ticket to return to your home country if you cannot pay for it so yourself.

In cases where criminal activity is suspected (usually drugs) then you are immediately held until you get a relative or friend to buy your plane ticket back to your home country.

If you are ever deported, you are banned from being able to re-enter Curacao for up to five years unless they have also convicted you of a crime. If you have been convicted of a crime, once you have served your sentence in Curacao, you are deported. Depending on the crime, the time you must wait before you can legally return to Curacao varies. If you are in this situation and have re-entered Curacao and do not have legal status to be there, you are held and deported. Again, you must pay for your plane ticket off the island or get someone to pay it for you.

Curacao has about 160,000 naturalized citizens. Curacao has about 15,000 legal residents, most are “pensionados” and of those, most are from Holland. Currently, it is estimated that the illegal population is about 10,000 and currently most of these are folks from Venezuela who have overstayed their visitor pass fleeing the economic collapse in Venezuela.

If any policeman or equivalent authority is caught giving a pass to any illegal immigrant who has been flagged for deportation that official is in big trouble, would probably lose their job and may face charges. Bribes are hardly an option like in Panama and Costa Rica. I am not saying one can’t try, but in Curacao, to try this almost always gets you into bigger trouble.

I lived in Curacao for 8 years as a legal resident. I saw the problems illegals created for the safety of its citizens and legal residents and thus understand why Curacao has evolved to treat the issue as they do now which is as I described above.

I asked a very good friend of mine who has the biggest heart of just about anyone I know and who is also very involved in "the scene" in Curacao, "Why does Curacao have this policy and why do they enforce the policy?"

His responses paraphrased -

They do this NUMBER ONE to protect jobs which protects the economy of Curacao.

NUMBER TWO - Within the illegal community are criminals, some dangerous, some "off-island" gang related... almost all drug trafficking related (Curacao used as a way station to Holland and Europe and other parts of the world). This activity also costs Curacao citizens and legal residents not just economically, but threatens the safety of their citizens and legal residents.

WoW! - the exact same two reasons you hear from citizens (and many legal residents) in the US.

My own comments - Again, the two reasons above are the exact same reasons folks in the US want something done about illegal immigration. The difference between Curacao and the US is, also again, that Curacao has their own "natural wall" already in place. Because they have this natural barrier they are able to reasonably uphold and enforce their laws. My friend pointed out that their laws are "Dutch laws" and are known to be quite liberal and quite compassionate. In addition, he pointed out these laws have a few loopholes which he and many in Curacao hopes the Curacao legislature will address. But he says that most citizens and residents want and appreciate their immigration enforcement and that there is no situation where officials or official bodies refuse to participate in the enforcement much less publicly oppose such enforcement and which proclaim their refusal to cooperate with enforcement such as we find all over the US. The only folks who oppose immigration enforcement in Curacao are business owners who exploit their status by paying them lower wages. This is also one of the issues that is mirrored in the US and part of the economic negative effect.

It is my opinion that Curacao does a reasonably good job and a humane job for its citizens and legal residents as well as those who are illegal or end up overstaying visitor passes and visas (which makes them illegal also) with regards to enforcement of their laws regarding illegals. It is my opinion the ability to do so is assisted by their natural wall.

If you wish to judge me as lacking integrity, that's your right. I see my analysis as practical while maintaining compassion for ALL effected by the current situation in the US which is a pretty big mess.

Note, I left out the fact that in the US, there is an additional otherwise preventable terrible situation regarding the safety of the millions of undocumented folks who are abused because they fear that going to the police would risk their stay in the US.

I personally know of two women who are forced to be prostitutes for this very reason - both have at least one child and in one case, one of the children was born here where the impregnation was from one of her "clients" who takes no responsibility for fathering the child.

And now for an analogy. An individual that has a terrible drug and alcohol problem that is destroying their life and seriously negatively effecting the lives of their family and loved ones. Quite often, treatment only succeeds when these sick individuals are first prevented from having access to the drugs and alcohol by entering treatment centers where they cannot leave until they have overcome their inability to say no. This is a wall. I know this wall well as I experienced this wall myself. My family and loved ones are thankful for that wall. They saw how I failed again and again to stop until I had no choice because of that wall.

It is the opinion of many (enough to get Trump elected) that the wall is the place to start. My opinion (and the opinion of many others) is that when we look at the situation in the US as it is now, it is hard to make a sane argument against solid border security and it is hard to argue that a serious physical impediment isn't the place to start.

[Helene West]

OP - "why do you want to build walls around you when you have peace inside?"
Give us a break with the Faux-Kumbaya crap.

What do you think americans have been doing for the last 2-3 generations? They embraced the Kumbaya approach, add in the christian 'turn the other cheek" and you now have present day america - not a country but a mere geographic land mass containing barely co-existing groups of people.

OP - "Peace is about integration, about forgiveness, about removing limitations that help create separation."
Eeeks, this FK (faux-kumbaya) language! Common core I guess is peaceful integration where young whites learn to hate themselves cause all they are taught is how bad whites are or males learn that maleness is bad - that mental/emotional assault is really peaceful, or robbing our rural citizenry of their property and livelihood, I guess is nwo type peace. Hey, isn't unisex bathrooms a sign of peaceful integration and aren't we making great strides for that leap forward, lol?

I wonder what the OP is doing in pragmatic actions to counter this terrible "separation" that he/she abhors? taking in one of the young male muslims that are displacing older europeans from their apartments? That's a great idea, give a european a break and you take in one of them into your home/apartment; How about mentoring a la riza child so they can spit in your face after all your ("white")love? And who is supposed to be forgiving who and for what? If the OP has given up their possessions and is now living in a Sanctuary like st. francis of assisi maybe I'd be impressed with their sincerity but I doubt that's where they're coming from.

Based on the OP's drivel above and other posts he/she has written supporting the government's guaranteed monthly incomes where people will be as dependent as farm animals, the words 'agenda 21-sustainability Plant' has come to mind.

What I will agree with is that the wall probably will not come about. I also agree that it is a shame that things had to come down to this. I'm not heavily invested in whether it does or doesn't but as opposed to the OP I see the wall's message as saying to the world that not all americans are complete masochistic whimps.

The OP is worried about the waste of money. Maybe OP should worry about the huge black ops payroll the ruling class lays out in every developed country for all the paid provocateurs, alphabet agencies, disinformation agents, sustainability agents, etc - worry about the ruling class's huge payroll (our debt) to sustain all these saboteurs of the western world, poor babies.

OP - "... which is a sign we are all moving away from peace into a cloud of false stuff that is going to haunt all of us towards a dark future..."
We are suffering now in a dark Present, if we don't deal with sanely defending ourselves from scores of different languages, cultures, belief systems, with many not only having no respect for our culture and beliefs but arriving with already built-in hostility, we are guaranteed the dark future.

[Chester]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)

Exactly and that is why the idea of a wall becomes obsolete, why do you want to build walls around you when you have peace inside?

Peace is about integration, about forgiveness, about removing limitations that help create separation. It is about thinking from the perspective of the collective as a whole and finding ways of removing that what separates, both from the bottom up perspective as well as the top down perspective. By doing so peace becomes the product. By going in the reverse direction, the efficiency that comes from the exchange of energy drops, because the energy becomes more incompatible in both directions. So globally to bring peace we need to find ways of removing limitations rather than adding more ones. The act of building a border wall could be an act of limiting limitation, but it is not such an act, it is a pure addition of limitation and it is paid by portions of people's lives. I'm so against it...

People are passionate about all kinds of things in life: love, sex, family, truth seeking, business, friendships, doing something important for society, arts etc...

BOOM. Then there are those that are passionate about building a border wall.

Where's been the compassion for citizens and legal residents of the US for the last several decades? Perhaps if actions had been taken along the way, there would not be any call for (and justification for) a wall. The wall idea is all and only based on the circumstances of now which include the outright refusal by folks and governmental bodies who spout out idealistic but in impractical statements such as those found in your post, WhiteLove, to enforce the laws we have and to cooperate with the authorities who are attempting to enforce these laws.

Where's the love and compassion Kate Stienle clearly deserved for example?

When you have individuals and groups protecting those who have proven they are a serious risk to commit the type of crimes that killed Kate Steinle, then you have to resort to other measures like stopping the flow. This is why the wall WhiteLove.

If the authorities in San Francisco didn't protect folks from someone like Francisco Sanchez who killed her, Kate Steinle's family might have their loved one alive today. That many "sanctuary cities" advertise that they WILL protect the Francisco Sanchezes, which Chicago recently strongly implied - "You are safe here in Chicago" is one of the big reasons people voted for a wall. If a wall is built, they only have themselves to blame. They made the wall the only realistic option as a starting point to get the problem under control.

In fact, to have to resort to the building of a wall is the result of a lack of compassion for US citizens, for legal residents, for visitors that are here legally, and for those who are NOT here legally now but who are also not dangerous criminals.

Once there is a barrier such as this (which IMO "the left" are responsible for creating if it is built), folks who wish to be here legally can follow the legal process for obtaining their legal status (like many folks I personally know)... otherwise innocent folks will continue to experience senseless but otherwise preventable deaths like keeps happening to far too many to list like happened to Kate Steinle.

[Chester]

And consider this - all and only for political reasons is the left clamoring about the security breeches into the DNC servers and Podesta's e-mail account. Yet the RNC wasn't hacked. Why? Because they have far better fire-walls. (Note the word "wall").

Instead, the clearly leftist president Obama decides to bring the US closer to war with Russia (note the buildup of both NATO forces and now US forces on some of Russia's border).

How utterly ridiculous is this? Can't those who love the ideals like the ones posted here by WhiteLove... ideals that are so obviously currently impractical, see how they are being used by those in power who are actually behaving dangerously? For me this is the most baffling thing of all.

[Bubu]

Posted by lucidity (here)
I'm certain Trump is serious about creating this wall.
They have one just like it running around Isreal... if it's good enough for the Israelis...

It shouldn't be too expensive to build this thing, i hear he'll be recruiting prison inmates
to do much of the work.. that's going to give them something constructive to do and
perhaps some of them will learn new, valuable vocational skills that might be useful
when they finish their sentence and return to society.

I think it's a wonderful project. I can't help thinking of the Hoover Dam that provided
work for thousands of labourers after the Great Depression.

One thought though, i think many people are imagining that this wall will keep 'out' the illegal immigrants.
What if the actual purpose of the wall was to stop American citizens escaping ?

whether to keep people out or in does not matter the point is its purpose is to limit freedom unnecesarilyand you find building it constructive? really

[Chester]

Posted by Bubu (here)
whether to keep people out or in does not matter the point is its purpose is to limit freedom unnecesarilyand you find building it constructive? really

It would be unnecessary if the various US authorities had been cooperating with each other just like is done in most other countries - many the vary countries many of these folks have left but they didn't and don't cooperate. The uncooperative all have one thing in common - the US form of "leftist" thinking.

If a wall gets built, they only have themselves to blame.

One last point before I take a break from this thread. The ideas spoken about by the OP and others who support the OP's views would be fantastic in a unified world without borders, without countries, without religions, on and on like the Lennon song Imagine. But for this to happen, humans have to make massive changes.

To try and impose ideas such as this upon a species not ready is no different than building a water tank and throwing camels in the tank because you think the world would be a better place if all animals could swim.

But then what is worse is to buy into the ideology because it sounds right when it is espoused by a group who have power but are seeking more power (if not total power) and could care a less about the actual ideals.

This is what snowflakes, etc. are falling for.

Where's the integrity in that?

[Bubu]

Posted by Helene West (here)
OP -
We are suffering now in a dark Present, if we don't deal with sanely defending ourselves from scores of different languages, cultures, belief systems, with many not only having no respect for our culture and beliefs but arriving with already built-in hostility, we are guaranteed the dark future.

"Belief system" yes that's what it is the real problem. Building a wall to keep the baddies away from the goodies is akin to modern medical practice of addressing the symptom but not curing the disease. And this would guarantee a dark future unnoticed because there is no symptom. If anything is to be done its to fix the belief system. "be the change you wanted to see" not build a wall. well if the symptom is unbearable... but keep the real issue in mind.