The great wall

[Bubu]

what's alike between disarming the dheeple and building a wall?

They are both the solution part of the "problem reaction solution" scheme

The slaves are as happy to turn over their weapons as to build a wall around them.

[Bubu]

Posted by lucidity (here)

.. work? yes of course that's how slaves think. " I need a job" " I am happy that I have a job for the masters" The slaves are always happy to work for money to buy goods that they themselves made while the masters are busy orchestrating and printing money every now and then to finance their priority projects.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...41-Demon-cracy.

'the best plan is a simple plan" agree that is why I only plan for myself.

Well... Trump was interviewing John Allison in Nov about taking up the Treasury Secretary position.
Allison wants to end the fed and bring the power of money creation back to a national central bank.
See here: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...rview-iw3k9cx9

Are you _really_ making a plan ?
What's your plan ?

as I and carmody pointed above the wall and the reason behind it is the symptom. The problem is ignorance and dependence on money. My plan is to plant as many food bearing plants as I can (I am in the process of designing a seed staff) and eventually return to the land work for food not money. and to educate as many people "be the change you wanted to see". simple plan not fake solution. Give people a job to construct a useless huge stone? you just increase the sheeples dependency on money (the masters). Give the prisoners a job to plant food bearing perennial plants around the city and it sure will lessen peoples dependency on the matrix. I understand though that most people has way complicated mind that's why they are reluctant to settle for a simple solution. "it cant be the solution to a huge problem must be rocket science" but if you are looking for a more complicated solution I say abolish immigration laws and all boundaries. human need to learn to come to terms with each other. Building a wall will only delay the necessary process to which a species must go through. Sure we will go through some rough process its an inevitable part of evolution. As for the controllers , its easy to control people when they are isolated in groups.

[Chester]

Posted by Patient (here)
Would it not make more sense to spend time, effort and money on fixing the problems within the immigration system? If that was fixed then you wouldn't need a wall.

YES - that would absolutely make far more sense yet sadly, it takes the ability for the various politicians independent of their party affiliations to sit down and get that done. It then takes the will of all who are empowered in their various ways to enforce the laws.

What the US has demonstrated since the last time amnesty was granted and supposed immigration law enforcement was to begin (Reagan in the 80's) was that the law was NOT enforced and the major two political parties that run US government have refused to work together to create reforms which would better secure the border and enforce enforcement. So here we are today.

In addition, we did not have near the sophistication of the border breaching like we do today, spurred on in large part by the rise of the Mexican cartels who are protected in large part by the Mexican political, military and business establishments which, if they would instead get on the same team in making and honest effort from their side to stem the problem, no wall would be needed. And note, the insatiable appetite for so much of the illegal drugs and also prostitution that comes across the Mexican border must be recognized as a major contributor to the problem.

Enough folks saw the ridiculousness of the dynamic of the political establishment regarding many issues, immigration, border security (drugs and sex trafficking). No one can deny Mexico as a state never shows any consistency of heart that would lead to a serious effort to curtail border breaches and trafficking.

So YES, you are right but sadly... the voters said they are tired of waiting. Too bad the US political dynamic, as it has been and is today, has failed to resolve this problem as you rightly suggest it should have been, but the odds that it ever would be without drastic action such as the wall look to be almost non existent.

[meat suit]

Posted by lucidity (here)
I'm certain Trump is serious about creating this wall.
They have one just like it running around Isreal... if it's good enough for the Israelis...

It shouldn't be too expensive to build this thing, i hear he'll be recruiting prison inmates
to do much of the work.. that's going to give them something constructive to do and
perhaps some of them will learn new, valuable vocational skills that might be useful
when they finish their sentence and return to society.

I think it's a wonderful project. I can't help thinking of the Hoover Dam that provided
work for thousands of labourers after the Great Depression.

One thought though, i think many people are imagining that this wall will keep 'out' the illegal immigrants...
What if the actual purpose of the wall is to stop American citizens escaping ?

jep... we have a mini ice age on the way after all...

[ceetee9]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
I read the article below.

Congress begins to search for funds to help Trump build border wall
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...106-story.html

Is there possibly any greater form of waste of life, than making humans spend time of their life building a border wall for billions of dollars?! What a freaking stupid idea.

If the newly elected US president approves something like that, he must currently be in a state of disrespect for human life...

It will be interesting to follow the development of this, either Trump will not carry through this, which is a sign that the US and the rest of the world moves towards peace, or he will approve and commit to this, which is a sign we are all moving away from peace into a cloud of false stuff that is going to haunt all of us towards a dark future...

My hope is that Trump in the last minute realizes how dense a path like this is and that there are of course much better options out there... If he does not, my hope goes to the american people stopping this, because it is pure waste of everything. The US and the world needs peace, not a wall. Common sense...

Who wants to live in a world where walls become the new norm? It just does not have any real value, it's an idea rooted in fake/false value.

I agree. How stupid and a waste of money, resources and labor (regardless of whose)--not to mention the tension and animosity that would be created between the nations divided by such a wall. And as if no one has ever (or could ever) go over, under, around or through a wall. I mean, history has proven that isn't possible, right? And that doesn't even begin to address the cost of maintaining the wall or maintaining a watchful eye over the entire length of the wall throughout its existence.

Of course, this begs the question: Are they really interested in preventing illegal immigration? I think the answer to that question is quite obvious. We have had illegal immigration in this country for decades and this issue has been bandied about for who knows how many elections, yet Congress has failed to resolve it. Gee, I wonder why or how that could be?

Let's see. Could it have anything to do with millions of jobs, that get filled by low wage earners who receive little or no benefits and who can't complain about it, from several multi-billion dollar corporations and conglomerates, like, say, Agriculture, Hotel chains, Restaurant chains, Factories, etc? Nah, that's crazy thinking.

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, if the government was serious about solving the illegal immigration issue one idea that would go far farther to reduce illegal immigration than building a wall would be to introduce legislation that made it a Felony (why not, virtually everything is a Felony now days) for any CEO, President or Manager of a company who hires an illegal immigrant. If the jobs dry up so does much of the need/desire to enter the US. I'm not naive enough to believe that this would solve ALL of the illegal immigration, but it surely would solve much of it. But, as I said, the government isn't interested in solving this issue. Too much money that fills their pockets would be lost if they did something like that.

Interestingly, the world was cheering when President Reagan made his famous statement (June 12, 1987) "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" and here we are, 30 years later, wanting to build our own wall. We learn nothing from history. Go figure.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Is there possibly any greater form of waste of life, than making humans spend time of their life building a border wall for billions of dollars?! What a freaking stupid idea.

Sounds like you're in favor of open borders. Ask Germany how that's going for them.





Realistically we're probably, as a nation, losing much more money paying for illegal immigration, when you factor in the government benefits that illegals receive, the amount of crime that they commit (these are criminals after all, who are crossing the border illegally, and many of them are violent) which requires hiring lawyers, cost of incarceration, deportation, etc.

[Chester]

With all due respect ceetee9, I disagree with some of your post.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
How stupid and a waste of money, resources and labor (regardless of whose)

Perhaps you haven't recognized the great economic cost (ie. waste of money) of illegal immigration and drug and sex trafficking across the Mexican border as pointed out in the following posts on this same thread -

here and here and here.

You and I can make a statement that such a wall is a waste of money because in the US, we have that right. But the facts suggest otherwise.

And now I will add my opinion that the reason Democrats and some cabal aligned Republicans want the massive influx of illegal aliens is because they know the folks will vote (along with their legal relatives) for the Democrats because they think the Democrats will protect them which they will all and only to get their vote. And it is my opinion along with many others based on the cries we see coming from these folks against so called "fake news" (when it is honest reporting that has been exposing the dark underbelly of these same folks) that your right to state your opinion, even when one provides no factual basis for forming such an opinion, this right would be in serious jeopardy if Hillary had won and the Dems had gained control of the houses.

It is my opinion that we have all been played based on our emulation of a true, heart felt empathy for others. It is my opinion that if we do not wake up to this en masse we will all lose the right to free speech and also lose access to truthful, honest reporting. You and I risk losing our right to state our opinions.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
not to mention the tension and animosity that would be created between the nations divided by such a wall.

Open your eyes my friend, this tension and animosity is fully alive, well and kicking already and has been this way for awhile. The wall won't make it a worst that would last. It is my opinion, the wall, if built, once the data pours in, will produce effects which will silence the arguments that it is a bad idea. The data will be overwhelming in this regard.

History is History. The circumstances of technology alone (today) change the game. History didn't have drones but we see how drones have had a major impact on all sorts of factors of life from war to package delivery to transportation and on and on. The life situation is different now. IMO the history argument just doesn't hold up.

As for the costs of maintenance, one month of savings to society created by the impact this will have on the reduction of illegal drugs pouring in will cover maintenance for a year or more.

And how do you measure the cost of lives that die from things such as heroin overdoses? Did you know that drug overdoses are the leading cause of unnatural death in 2015? (here)

Drug overdose is the leading cause of accidental death in the US, with 55,403 lethal drug overdoses in 2015. Opioid addiction is driving this epidemic, with 20,101 overdose deaths related to prescription pain relievers, and 12,990 overdose deaths related to heroin in 2015

How do you measure the cost to families when they lose love ones to these terrible drugs... many smuggled across the Mexican border? Even if a single life is saved, can you put a price on that life?

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
Of course, this begs the question: Are they really interested in preventing illegal immigration? I think the answer to that question is quite obvious. We have had illegal immigration in this country for decades and this issue has been bandied about for who knows how many elections, yet Congress has failed to resolve it. Gee, I wonder why or how that could be?

Let's see. Could it have anything to do with millions of jobs, that get filled by low wage earners who receive little or no benefits and who can't complain about it, from several multi-billion dollar corporations and conglomerates, like, say, Agriculture, Hotel chains, Restaurant chains, Factories, etc? Nah, that's crazy thinking.

The answer to your question points directly to one of the main reasons Trump was elected. The American voter complained about it and was heard. Note in my first post how I pointed out the same reason you are insinuating is the NUMBER ONE reason Curacao (and Panama and Costa Rica) enforce their immigration laws far better than the US. Why not support real immigration reform by calling out the elected officials who publicly boast their refusal to support and assist US Federal Immigration laws.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, if the government was serious about solving the illegal immigration issue one idea that would go far farther to reduce illegal immigration than building a wall would be to introduce legislation that made it a Felony (why not, virtually everything is a Felony now days) for any CEO, President or Manager of a company who hires an illegal immigrant. If the jobs dry up so does much of the need/desire to enter the US. I'm not naive enough to believe that this would solve ALL of the illegal immigration, but it surely would solve much of it. But, as I said, the government isn't interested in solving this issue. Too much money that fills their pockets would be lost if they did something like that.

Good point there but what are the costs to enforce this, do so consistently and do so everywhere across the board? There's cost issues and practicality issues there too. In addition, laws have already been strengthened in this regard with little effect. Could this be due to a lack of will to enforce them? How much do the 200 sanctuary cities where the leaders publicly challenge the Feds regarding enforcement impact the ability for agencies to enforce the laws against employers who knowingly hire illegals? I agree that further strengthening should at least be part of an overhaul of the entire immigration situation, but that doesn't touch the drug flow or the sex trafficking along with the murder and mayhem produced by the cartels in charge of most of this which effect folks on both sides of the border.

Imagine how much it would cost the Feds to sink money into forcing change in the behaviors of the mayors and local law enforcement officials of sanctuary cities? How much money would be poured into the Justice Department efforts to go after employers what that cost might be? The wall would be minuscule compared to these costs.

The wall will also have a greater chance of actually making a difference too.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
Interestingly, the world was cheering when President Reagan made his famous statement (June 12, 1987) "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" and here we are, 30 years later, wanting to build our own wall. We learn nothing from history. Go figure.

The wall Reagan referred to was a wall that protected a communist enclave. It held people in. Reagan perceived communism to be a threat at that time. Demanding that wall to come down was a demand to allow other forms of government in, to allow free thought and western principles in.

There was zero perception from anyone at that time that the Berlin Wall was meant to protect innocents from economic, social and physical threats like the wall between the US southern border and Mexico is meant to achieve for US citizens and legal residents/legal visitors. To try and use Reagan's statement as an example of a respected US leader of the past making an argument against walls in a generic sense seems a bit naive. IMO, these two situations are far different and too complex to try and draw comparisons to support your argument.

[WhiteLove]

Posted by bsbray (here)

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Is there possibly any greater form of waste of life, than making humans spend time of their life building a border wall for billions of dollars?! What a freaking stupid idea.

Sounds like you're in favor of open borders. Ask Germany how that's going for them.





Realistically we're probably, as a nation, losing much more money paying for illegal immigration, when you factor in the government benefits that illegals receive, the amount of crime that they commit (these are criminals after all, who are crossing the border illegally, and many of them are violent) which requires hiring lawyers, cost of incarceration, deportation, etc.

Yes, open border all the way baby. What is happening with the US border wall political proposal and other pretty right wing moves around the world is that issues are not being kept isolated from one another, they are being mixed into a big pot and that big pot is also heavily overestimated in its burden on the society. So it's kind of like everybody are focusing on some overall issue thinking that this is the root to all evil, while in reality in the background the real issues are building up and nobody are paying attention.

The first false idea is this: the birth of a human is by default a cost to society.

No it is not. It is the birth of a unique being with unique skills, talents, passions and ideas that have a perfect place and a perfect value in the whole. It's an added income.

The second false idea is this: nations are required in a civilization.

No they are not. The concept of a nation is totally a construct created by the subjective consciousness, it is an idea that somehow there must be some kind of relationship between the place of birth and that individual and its context related to that place of birth. As if someone said that because someone by nature is born in some particular place, that person must in some way be bound to that place. Anyone can at any time say that no, there is nothing in nature that dictates that this kind of limitation must exist, it is equally valid that this person is equally bound and has an equal relationship to all other places on earth.

I could make an endless list of all of these ideas that are all false and sum up to being unnecessary distractions and limitations, while the real issues are totally different and are eating on the society while the society tries to fix some issues that never had any really profound negative effect on society.

Peace is similar to laying all cards down open on the table and saying: I love you all.

And that has nothing to do with fake money, fake borders, fake causes, fake solutions, fake everything. Peace must be that which gets all the attention, because we need it and not having it is the real issue. To effectively deal with that issue one has to focus on that issue much enough compared to the focus on all other potential issues, because all other potential issues might be the result of the top one and as long as we don't fix that one, we are only trying to fix the symptoms and we all know that does not fix the root cause...

So all in all, humans consider building walls on their isolated planet to be smart, while maybe millions or billions of other civilizations are in peace out there discovering the universe and bonding in peace with new civilizations they encounter...

So we need peace, more than anything.

Do you know how low the cost is on the border issue compared to the cost of the militarization agenda? It is like comparing a galaxy against a planet. Therefore it becomes so distracting when the people should focus on peace and instead read daily about a wall that might be built, not only for billions, but adding to that paying by consuming portions of people's lives...

True peace has no boundaries.

In another thread we were discussing common sense. What I wrote above IS common sense. It is really simple logic and I'm not trying to be smart saying it. It is so common sense that everybody (no some are) are not choosing to focus on it. It's kind of like mass hypnosis/illusion we need to wake up from.

Nobody on a peaceful earth would even consider building a border wall anywhere. It would be an alien idea to that society and would not be common sense.

Hence, the real question becomes this: Why do we not focus enough on peace?

Love & Peace

[ceetee9]

Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
With all due respect ceetee9, I disagree with some of your post.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
How stupid and a waste of money, resources and labor (regardless of whose)

Perhaps you haven't recognized the great economic cost (ie. waste of money) of illegal immigration and drug and sex trafficking across the Mexican border as pointed out in the following posts on this same thread -

here and here and here.

You and I can make a statement that such a wall is a waste of money because in the US, we have that right. But the facts suggest otherwise.

And now I will add my opinion that the reason Democrats and some cabal aligned Republicans want the massive influx of illegal aliens is because they know the folks will vote (along with their legal relatives) for the Democrats because they think the Democrats will protect them which they will all and only to get their vote. And it is my opinion along with many others based on the cries we see coming from these folks against so called "fake news" (when it is honest reporting that has been exposing the dark underbelly of these same folks) that your right to state your opinion, even when one provides no factual basis for forming such an opinion, this right would be in serious jeopardy if Hillary had won and the Dems had gained control of the houses.

It is my opinion that we have all been played based on our emulation of a true, heart felt empathy for others. It is my opinion that if we do not wake up to this en masse we will all lose the right to free speech and also lose access to truthful, honest reporting. You and I risk losing our right to state our opinions.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
not to mention the tension and animosity that would be created between the nations divided by such a wall.

Open your eyes my friend, this tension and animosity is fully alive, well and kicking already and has been this way for awhile. The wall won't make it a worst that would last. It is my opinion, the wall, if built, once the data pours in, will produce effects which will silence the arguments that it is a bad idea. The data will be overwhelming in this regard.

History is History. The circumstances of technology alone (today) change the game. History didn't have drones but we see how drones have had a major impact on all sorts of factors of life from war to package delivery to transportation and on and on. The life situation is different now. IMO the history argument just doesn't hold up.

As for the costs of maintenance, one month of savings to society created by the impact this will have on the reduction of illegal drugs pouring in will cover maintenance for a year or more.

And how do you measure the cost of lives that die from things such as heroin overdoses? Did you know that drug overdoses are the leading cause of unnatural death in 2015? (here)

Drug overdose is the leading cause of accidental death in the US, with 55,403 lethal drug overdoses in 2015. Opioid addiction is driving this epidemic, with 20,101 overdose deaths related to prescription pain relievers, and 12,990 overdose deaths related to heroin in 2015

How do you measure the cost to families when they lose love ones to these terrible drugs... many smuggled across the Mexican border? Even if a single life is saved, can you put a price on that life?

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
Of course, this begs the question: Are they really interested in preventing illegal immigration? I think the answer to that question is quite obvious. We have had illegal immigration in this country for decades and this issue has been bandied about for who knows how many elections, yet Congress has failed to resolve it. Gee, I wonder why or how that could be?

Let's see. Could it have anything to do with millions of jobs, that get filled by low wage earners who receive little or no benefits and who can't complain about it, from several multi-billion dollar corporations and conglomerates, like, say, Agriculture, Hotel chains, Restaurant chains, Factories, etc? Nah, that's crazy thinking.

The answer to your question points directly to one of the main reasons Trump was elected. The American voter complained about it and was heard. Note in my first post how I pointed out the same reason you are insinuating is the NUMBER ONE reason Curacao (and Panama and Costa Rica) enforce their immigration laws far better than the US. Why not support real immigration reform by calling out the elected officials who publicly boast their refusal to support and assist US Federal Immigration laws.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, if the government was serious about solving the illegal immigration issue one idea that would go far farther to reduce illegal immigration than building a wall would be to introduce legislation that made it a Felony (why not, virtually everything is a Felony now days) for any CEO, President or Manager of a company who hires an illegal immigrant. If the jobs dry up so does much of the need/desire to enter the US. I'm not naive enough to believe that this would solve ALL of the illegal immigration, but it surely would solve much of it. But, as I said, the government isn't interested in solving this issue. Too much money that fills their pockets would be lost if they did something like that.

Good point there but what are the costs to enforce this, do so consistently and do so everywhere across the board? There's cost issues and practicality issues there too. In addition, laws have already been strengthened in this regard with little effect. Could this be due to a lack of will to enforce them? How much do the 200 sanctuary cities where the leaders publicly challenge the Feds regarding enforcement impact the ability for agencies to enforce the laws against employers who knowingly hire illegals? I agree that further strengthening should at least be part of an overhaul of the entire immigration situation, but that doesn't touch the drug flow or the sex trafficking along with the murder and mayhem produced by the cartels in charge of most of this which effect folks on both sides of the border.

Imagine how much it would cost the Feds to sink money into forcing change in the behaviors of the mayors and local law enforcement officials of sanctuary cities? How much money would be poured into the Justice Department efforts to go after employers what that cost might be? The wall would be minuscule compared to these costs.

The wall will also have a greater chance of actually making a difference too.

Posted by ceetee9 (here)
Interestingly, the world was cheering when President Reagan made his famous statement (June 12, 1987) "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" and here we are, 30 years later, wanting to build our own wall. We learn nothing from history. Go figure.

The wall Reagan referred to was a wall that protected a communist enclave. It held people in. Reagan perceived communism to be a threat at that time. Demanding that wall to come down was a demand to allow other forms of government in, to allow free thought and western principles in.

There was zero perception from anyone at that time that the Berlin Wall was meant to protect innocents from economic, social and physical threats like the wall between the US southern border and Mexico is meant to achieve for US citizens and legal residents/legal visitors. To try and use Reagan's statement as an example of a respected US leader of the past making an argument against walls in a generic sense seems a bit naive. IMO, these two situations are far different and too complex to try and draw comparisons to support your argument.

Fair enough and with all due respect to you Sam, I too must disagree with much of what you said.

Posted by Sam Hunter
Perhaps you haven't recognized the great economic cost (ie. waste of money) of illegal immigration and drug and sex trafficking across the Mexican border as pointed out in the following posts on this same thread…

I’m not sure how you can infer from what I said that I don’t recognize the great economic cost of illegal immigration to this country whether it comes through the more than 7,000 miles of border with Mexico and Canada or the 88,000 miles of US shoreline. I absolutely do recognize this is a major problem.

Posted by Sam Hunter
It is my opinion that we have all been played based on our emulation of a true, heart felt empathy for others. It is my opinion that if we do not wake up to this en masse we will all lose the right to free speech and also lose access to truthful, honest reporting. You and I risk losing our right to state our opinions.

No question in my mind that we have all been played for a multitude of reasons and probably throughout our history. And I quite agree that we are (and have been) losing all the things you mentioned and more so I’m not sure how your statement addresses anything I said.

Posted by Sam Hunter
Open your eyes my friend, this tension and animosity is fully alive, well and kicking already and has been this way for awhile. The wall won't make it a worst that would last. It is my opinion, the wall, if built, once the data pours in, will produce effects which will silence the arguments that it is a bad idea. The data will be overwhelming in this regard.

You’re right about the first sentence. I should have said that a wall would make the tensions and animosities between the US and Mexico worse than they already are. But, hey, no one can say that the US doesn’t like a good war to keep its citizens in a constant state of fear and the military-industrial-complex well oiled.

In my opinion, should the wall be built, no such overwhelming data that will squelch the arguments against it will be forthcoming. But I too could be wrong.

Posted by Sam Hunter
History is History. The circumstances of technology alone (today) change the game. History didn't have drones but we see how drones have had a major impact on all sorts of factors of life from war to package delivery to transportation and on and on. The life situation is different now. IMO the history argument just doesn't hold up.

Without question technology will have an impact on “the game,” but if you’re implying that the history argument doesn’t hold up because we have drones and much greater technology now than even a few decades ago and/or that nothing can be gleaned from history, you are sorely mistaken.

Wait, maybe those drug smuggling Cartels could use drones to send their drugs over that wall and deep into US drop spots below radar and when those wall monitoring drones aren’t in the area. Nah, that would never happen.

Posted by Sam Hunter
As for the costs of maintenance, one month of savings to society created by the impact this will have on the reduction of illegal drugs pouring in will cover maintenance for a year or more.

Really? Where did you derive your data because I’d like to see it? And are you implying that drugs don’t come into this country through borders other than Mexico (i.e., Canadian), airports throughout the country (I'm sure you've heard of the Mena airport connection), shoreline drops, trucks, trains and other vehicles that cross our borders? And do you discount all the evidence that suggests the CIA, military and other government agencies and well connected organizations bring drugs into this country in countless ways, or are you just ignoring those facts?

Posted by Sam Hunter
And how do you measure the cost of lives that die from things such as heroin overdoses? Did you know that drug overdoses are the leading cause of unnatural death in 2015?

How do you measure the cost of lives lost Sam?

Did you know that 614,348 died from Heart Disease, 591,699 from Cancer, 147,101 from Chronic Respiratory Disease, 133,103 from Stroke, 93,541 from Alzheimer’s, 76,488 from Diabetes, 55,227 from Influenza and Pneumonia and 42,773 died from Suicide in 2016 according to the CDC? If you want to play the “I care about people’s lives” card, I would rather have my tax dollars spent on finding cures for all of the aforementioned diseases than spent on a wall that will be largely ineffectual at preventing illegal drug deaths, sex trafficking, or at resolving the illegal immigration problem.

BTW: Of the 55,403 drug overdose deaths in the ASAM 2015 reference you cited, 20,101 were from prescription pain relievers, 12,990 were actually from Heroin and the remaining 22,312 were from other Opioids, both legal and illegal.

Posted by Sam Hunter
How do you measure the cost to families when they lose love ones to these terrible drugs... many smuggled across the Mexican border? Even if a single life is saved, can you put a price on that life?

This is a topic on which I am painfully familiar. I lost my 16 year old son to a combination of pneumonia and heroin. But I’m not so naïve as to believe that a wall, had it been present before my son got the heroin, would have prevented his death. Your argument is fallacious and naïve at best.

And, no, I would never be so presumptuous to even attempt to put a price on a single life. But let’s use your argument in another example to extend that oft echoed but ill-conceived notion to see how many will agree with it when put in a perspective that may hit a little closer to home.

According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, there were just over 35,000 traffic fatalities due to auto accidents in 2015. So, given that we all agree that if we can save just ONE life: if we reduce all road speed limits to ten miles an hour we will undoubtedly be able to save 10,000, 20,000, perhaps even close to the 35,000 lives that are lost each year currently. Are we all in? Because if we aren’t then we agree that there is SOME number of auto accident deaths each year that is “acceptable” for the convenience of getting from point A to point B in a “reasonable” amount of time and at a “reasonable” speed. Yes, we can argue over what those “acceptable” and “reasonable” numbers are, but I’m confident there would be few people who would be clamoring for a National 10 mile an hour speed limit—well, at least no rational person There are many other examples that could have been used to demonstrate that we often talk out of both sides of our mouth, but when push comes to shove, we’re a little more forgiving in our “values.”

Posted by Sam Hunter
The answer to your question points directly to one of the main reasons Trump was elected. The American voter complained about it and was heard. Note in my first post how I pointed out the same reason you are insinuating is the NUMBER ONE reason Curacao (and Panama and Costa Rica) enforce their immigration laws far better than the US. Why not support real immigration reform by calling out the elected officials who publicly boast their refusal to support and assist US Federal Immigration laws.

I have no doubt that that is ONE of the reasons why Trump was elected, but I seriously doubt it was the “main” reason why he was elected.

I agree with the second part of your comment. By all means, let’s support “real” immigration reform. I like your idea to call out elected officials who won’t support real immigration reform. But why stop there? Besides calling them out, why not KICK out any “elected” official who serves corporate interests at the expense of the American people and their wishes?

Posted by Sam Hunter
Good point there but what are the costs to enforce this, do so consistently and do so everywhere across the board? There's cost issues and practicality issues there too. In addition, laws have already been strengthened in this regard with little effect. Could this be due to a lack of will to enforce them? How much do the 200 sanctuary cities where the leaders publicly challenge the Feds regarding enforcement impact the ability for agencies to enforce the laws against employers who knowingly hire illegals? I agree that further strengthening should at least be part of an overhaul of the entire immigration situation, but that doesn't touch the drug flow or the sex trafficking along with the murder and mayhem produced by the cartels in charge of most of this which effect folks on both sides of the border.

Imagine how much it would cost the Feds to sink money into forcing change in the behaviors of the mayors and local law enforcement officials of sanctuary cities? How much money would be poured into the Justice Department efforts to go after employers what that cost might be? The wall would be minuscule compared to these costs.

Absolutely there are high costs to what I suggested. I never said otherwise. I don’t know what laws have been strengthened in this regard that you are talking about, but if this is true, I would agree they have had little effect because, as you questioned and as I contend, the government isn’t really interested in solving the immigration issue—for all the reasons you and I have both articulated and many, many more no doubt.

As for the drug and sex trafficking issues, as I’ve indicated before, this is not isolated to the Mexican border alone nor is it isolated to Mexican Drug Cartels (here's just one expose on government involvement in drugs and sex trafficking). Drug Cartels have already been crossing the border for decades, digging tunnels, and shipping their drugs and people via numerous methods. Further, there is much evidence that the CIA is in bed with some of these Cartels so I don’t see how a wall on just one part of the US borders is going to have any significant impact on drugs, child/sex trafficking, or illegal immigration. In my opinion, this wall idea is a red herring designed to pacify the masses into believing the government is really trying to solve these problems—wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Posted by Sam Hunter
The wall Reagan referred to was a wall that protected a communist enclave. It held people in. Reagan perceived communism to be a threat at that time. Demanding that wall to come down was a demand to allow other forms of government in, to allow free thought and western principles in.

There was zero perception from anyone at that time that the Berlin Wall was meant to protect innocents from economic, social and physical threats like the wall between the US southern border and Mexico is meant to achieve for US citizens and legal residents/legal visitors. To try and use Reagan's statement as an example of a respected US leader of the past making an argument against walls in a generic sense seems a bit naive. IMO, these two situations are far different and too complex to try and draw comparisons to support your argument.

I fail to see the difference as to whether a wall is built to keep people in or keep people out regardless of whether it is to prevent a different form of government from encroaching on another, or whether it is built to prevent economic, social, or physical threats from encroaching on another. In the end, they are both designed to keep one group of people from interacting with another in some way and for some purpose(s). And in all cases, if one of those groups is determined to cross that wall, the wall will be crossed. So this leads us back to the fallacious idea that if it (the wall in this case) just prevents one (or ‘x’) number of immigrants from crossing our border, or drugs from entering our country, or a child from being trafficked for sex, it is worth it. If this were a Pollyanna World, I might agree. This isn’t a Pollyanna World.

Until we start attacking the root causes of all these problems, we don’t really stand a chance at resolving them, IMHO. We can continue to throw away billions of tax payer dollars on half-baked ideas that do little more than put Band-Aids on a massive head wound, but no amount of Band-Aids are going to stop the hemorrhaging before the victim dies.

Finally, I apologize for not having more and better references to support some of my assertions, but I’ve already spent way more time on this than I had planned and I doubt spending any more time and effort on this subject will change anyone’s mind that’s already made up. But for those curious and adventurous souls who do want to learn more about all of this, I strongly suggest they search the Internet and their favorite bookstores and library for articles, videos, and books on these subjects. There are hundreds, if not thousands of sources. And, yes, as always, there’s tons of misinformation, disinformation and outright lies buried among the nuggets of truth. It is up to YOU to connect the dots. Don’t let anyone else do it for you.

Thank you again Sam for taking the time to state your opinions. Hopefully, our dialog here will have a positive impact on those who read it and will encourage more people to do their own research and make up their own mind, not just on the illegal immigration issue, but on every issue of importance.

[Flash]

Posted by lucidity (here)

Posted by Bubu (here)

Posted by lucidity (here)
I'm certain Trump is serious about creating this wall.
They have one just like it running around Isreal... if it's good enough for the Israelis...

It shouldn't be too expensive to build this thing, i hear he'll be recruiting prison inmates
to do much of the work.. that's going to give them something constructive to do and
perhaps some of them will learn new, valuable vocational skills that might be useful
when they finish their sentence and return to society.

I think it's a wonderful project. I can't help thinking of the Hoover Dam that provided
work for thousands of labourers after the Great Depression.

One thought though, i think many people are imagining that this wall will keep 'out' the illegal immigrants.
What if the actual purpose of the wall was to stop American citizens escaping ?

whether to keep people out or in does not matter the point is its purpose is to limit freedom unnecesarilyand you find building it constructive? really

Yes, constructive and effective. It will provide work for many people.
Both in it's construction and in it's maintenance.
It will reduce, but not stop, the invasion of the USA by immigrants, drugs and weaponry.
(But it's a bit like locking the gate after the horse has bolted)

There is a legitimate concern that the Wall will be used to imprison those on the USA
side of the wall... That it's real function is to stop people getting out.
I wonder if anyone has asked if a similar wall will be created on the Canadian boarder.
If the answer is yes... worry!

The wall wont be a huge limit to liberties in the USA.
There are few liberties left in the USA - if you want liberty, campaign for the restoration of the constitution.
But as political protest usually results in tear gas and being beaten by police batons..... don't.

be happy :-)

The Canadian border us truly much too long to build a physical wall. THis would dwarf many time any China wall lollllllllll. I think we have the longest common border in the world, Canada and USA. And truly, why build a wall which Canadians whose society is much quieter and gentler than the US counterpart. If anything, it is Canadians who would need the wall.<

However, there is an electronic wall that is quite efficient all along the border. When someone crosses, the border guards know on each side of the border and can go and pick up those who crossed. Not so many are crossing making it feasible to pick up those who do.

There cannot be a wall because of the size of the border.

---------------

level 1

Sam is hitting a good point here. Not for natural walls, but for the reasons immigrants immigrate.

You have refugees, who escape a country that will have them usually inprisoned or killed, for no hard criminal reason, but political ones. Those are not criminals to start with, they are only trouble makers for usually some dictatorship or on the wrong party side of their country.<

Then you have economic immigration. Those are usually pretty much starving people who wants a better life for themselves and their families. They usually won't create any problems on the contrary, they will appreciate a better life and work for it in their new country.

Then you have the grabbers immigrants. They will want a better life but will not want to work for it. they usually have been told that in America, Canada, Europe, things are basically free and money grows in trees. They cannot even imagine having to work hard as one does in America, in order to have it better. Those immigrants are easily corrupted and may easily end up on welfare (food stamps) and create illegal stuff. They are the petty thieves and drug dealers.

Then you have the real hard core businessmen who are immigrating to continue their business of drugs, etc. Those are to be thrown out, but usually have money and will somehow buy their way in, even in USA and Canada. They support the petty thieve, which are their business workforce. But how do you get them out? Yu build a wall to stop their workforce from coming in and therefore starve their business.

I wish we could do that for the Bushes and Clintons as well..... and their Canadian corrupted political/businesses counterparts as well.

-----------------

level 2

Now, lets face it, the whole planet wants to move to western countries. I do mean billions of people. This is not feasible albeit intended in Europe actually. What would be feasible is giving them true help (not the lip service given at present to make sure our businesses thrive in their countries) for them to make their country better and their life easier in their own countries.

In other words, stop the drug trade, the corruption, and everything crooked as well as the governments medling (coups) we are doing in their country to enhance our own profits. We would be poorer for a while, but on the long run everyone would be much better off.

[Chester]

Funny that moments ago (just after 4PM Eastern, January 10, 2017) the very first issue brought forth by the very first senator (McCain) of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security in the General Kelly confirmation hearings cites the opioid epidemic in relation to the porous border as our the number one concern for homeland security. The problem is very real my friends. Passionate, factless statements don't make this "not so." Reducing the flow (which McCian highlights is significant) of heroin across the souther border is a top priority. The crackdown on doctors who were giving out prescription opioids has shown a direct correlation to a rise in heroin overdoses.

see here and here and here

Again, facts show this is a serious issue. Tha Wall and all other measures to curtail the flow of heroin across this wide open border is only ONE of the benefits of securing the border.

Just like Kate's law, the Wall also serves as a symbolic act. It symbolizes that drastic measures eventually must be taken when less drastic but clearly likely corrective measures are not just ignored but willfully blocked (and we know who has stood in the way). If the Wall gets built, it will be exactly what was asked for. Voters told us this.

Charles Krauthammer's list of actions which he suggests must ALL be implemented -

FIRST: Stop federal funding to sanctuary cities because they don't cooperate with the feds (note the three countries I described in my first post on this thread do not have this problem).

SECOND: You build a barrier ("The Wall") so that it actual becomes difficult to breach.

Note there's fences "all over Europe and they work."

THIRD: E-Verify

FOURTH: Fix the Visa overstay problem (almost 50% of the current illegal population is Visa overstays)

and as O'Reilly (and others) believe... implement laws like Kate's Law.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=H1jtfPYoDr0

He makes the very valid point that it is utterly ridiculous this law was not approved by the US Senate last year... and he also makes the point that by passing this law, you get the ball rolling.

I make odds quite high you have a bunch of the political left up for vote in 2018 who realize they better get on board or it's "bye-bye."

[turiya]

Looks good for Jeff Sessions to make it through the confirmation hearings process as America's new Attorney General... highly recommended by a vast number of State Law Enforcement agencies!

Roger Stone on Jeff Sessions: "If We Don't Seal Our Border,
We Will Cease to Have a Country"
(Published on January 10, 2017)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZTWu3tsfu70

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Yes, open border all the way baby.

There is no civilized country on the face of the Earth that has an open border policy. Whoever led you to believe that enforcing border laws is equivalent to hate and fascism is a very clever manipulator. It must have happened within the past 8 years too because before that the idea of an open border was not even a viable option for either political party.

You won't get love and peace by letting a bunch of criminals (because that is who breaks the law -- criminals) pour into your country from all third-world corners of the world. There is a reason that many countries are so poor and backwards and it's because in many ways they suck. That's not the politically correct answer and it will undoubtedly make some liberals cry and seek out trees to hug but it's the truth nonetheless. Not all countries were created equal. Some countries just suck. They suck a lot. Their people are overall too stupid and/or apathetic to get their own country in order so like a bunch of entitled lemmings they seek out free hand-outs in countries that have worked hard to reach a higher standard of living.

They may be victims of 1st-world corruption and exploitation to some extent as well, and I won't deny that. But fixing that problem starts with taking personal responsibility for mistakes and correcting them, and in most of these sucky countries you don't see that because they are all too corrupt. Take Brazil as an example, or Mexico, or many African nations. The massive levels of corruption and the whole victim mentality constantly employed by the left is not constructive to anything and just breeds more victimhood and lack of personal responsibility for anything, always wanting to blame someone else for all of their problems and wanting more free stuff from hard-working people.

Take Obama and Hillary as classic examples. No matter how much they fail at everything they try to do, they can never take responsibility for their failures. It's always the right's fault. That's why they'll continue to lose, because they have no sense of responsibility for anything anymore and just feel entitled to get their way because they "deserve" it. Hillary lost the election. Why? For any number of reasons except that she was a terrible candidate with way too much baggage and no clear message. No, instead it was the Russians, or racists, or hacking, or the election was rigged, etc. etc. etc. Always somebody else's fault, so they never recognize their own problems and fix them. I agree with E.T. Williams on YouTube, that this form of "liberalism" is a mental disorder. It's not even true liberalism. It's just straight-up, spoiled, self-entitlement and total lack of personal responsibility.

We didn't get to have a higher standard of living than third world countries because we all sat on our asses and got free stuff from the government while singing kumbaya. That kind of mentality is why those other countries suck in the first place. If they think it's such a great political philosophy they should just stay where they are already and reap the benefits of how sorry they all are instead of screwing up our country too. We are fixing our problems now. Any other country that wants to work with us like adults is more than welcome. Everyone else can go cry in the corner. Ie, Mexico. If Mexico sucks so much then they can fix their own government. How's that for an idea?

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Posted by bsbray (here)
it will undoubtedly make some liberals cry and seek out trees to hug but it's the truth nonetheless.

I was with you right up until this little piece of childish bull****. I stopped reading here. How do you think you will convince others of your point of view by being divisive and insulting? Does talking this way make you feel tough? Does it make you feel like you have large genitals? Does it make you feel superior?

You disappoint me. Grow up.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)
I was with you right up until this little piece of childish bull****. I stopped reading here. How do you think you will convince others of your point of view by being divisive and insulting? Does talking this way make you feel tough? Does it make you feel like you have large genitals? Does it make you feel superior?

I'm expressing how I feel about certain segments of the US population, who have nearly destroyed our country with all these air-fairy Marxist utopian pipe dreams, even if they don't have enough education to understand that that's really what it is. How far we have been led along the path away from the constitutional republic, and toward federal totalitarianism dressed in terms of protecting "muh feelings" is really outrageous. That's what all of this politically correct stuff is really about. It's about shutting down free expression and bullying people into conformity.

My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular and certainly not at you, so if you're offended then I'm missing how that's my fault. It's not like I incited violence or something. So maybe it's a good time to self-reflect and ask yourself what has made you so angry. Or not, it doesn't really matter to me. At any rate I'm not responsible for your feelings. You are actually responsible for those.

Either way the views I'm expressing are the views of millions of Americans. We are sick of tip-toeing around, trying to carefully frame all of our words so that we don't hurt anyone's feelings. It really is oppressive to feel like just looking at someone the wrong way can result in a tantrum. People are tired of that.

The next elections are in 2018, for Congress. In California all of their rep's and senators are probably liberals anyway so I don't know what is possible to change there. Until then I'm just breathing a sigh of relief that we don't have to walk on eggshells anymore out of fear of evoking the wrath and really bullying of SJWs.

[Chester]

The cost for the wall has been secured -

Last Minute Obama Gift?

This was no "last minute gift to Obama." It was an olive branch to Trump.


U.S. Government Seeks $14 Billion In El Chapo Case

The government is seeking a $14 billion forfeiture order as part of its prosecution of the notorious Mexican drug kingpin Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman, according to a U.S. attorney in New York.

The Feds will win and will order seizure of over 14 Billion in cash and assets held by El Chapo and/or El Chapo fronts.

Trust me... the Feds always get the cash or the cash equivalent in assets no matter where it is "hidden" in the world today.

"Cha-Ching!!!"

[Yetti]

Sam ,The simple idea of a wall is medieval, to say the least, just to enforce the regular law's about immigration will prevent a lot of trouble, drug problem is another factor here, if there are CONSUMERS they will be suppliers, so the problem must be adressed on both sides, Crime is a very wide word, because not only the illegal immigrants bring some criminal with them, we have our own, plus ,crocked police , in my opinion is the worst of the issue here. The whole spectrum is very wide and complex, buy I guess the police integrity must be attended first to regain confidence on the citizens, regardless nationality, gender, race or creede!. There are countless videos showing bad cops in wrong doing, and GET AWAY WIT IT , isn't this something more urgent to fix? And also the bad socio-economic situation of mexico is in grand part our fault, very bad policy to a neibourg country, keeping their economy ****y for greedy reasons ( big corporations , banksters ... you name it) And what about the Canadian border? they come in and out without anyone noticed? Is going to be a wall there too?
WTF IS HAPPENING HERE , EVERYBODY LOST THE HABILITY OF THINK?

[42]

Posted by Yetti (here)
And what about the Canadian border? they come in and out without anyone noticed?

That's clearly an "alternative fact" ... ask any Canadian who has had the experience of crossing the US border.

[Foxie Loxie]

We already know there are many tunnels connecting both sides.

[Chester]

Here's what happens when you do what you say... (as Trump has done with regards to following through on his campaign promises regarding the immigration fiasco that has existed and worsened throughout the terms of several of the last presidencies)

Miami-Dade mayor orders jails to comply with Trump crackdown on ‘sanctuary’ counties



And here's the list of what is to be done starting already (highlighting the crackdown on sanctuary cities is my own emphasis) -

Build a border wall (a large physical barrier)

Expedite process to remove criminal aliens

More detention space for illegal immigrants (who pose a violent threat)

End “catch and release” policy

Prioritize prosecution and deportation for lawbreakers

Criminals will be sent to country of origin

Hire 5,000 additional border patrol agents

Strip federal grant money from sanctuary states and cities that harbor illegal aliens so that the criminals can be held until "the criminal aliens" are sent home.

Reinstate secure communities programs program to help ICE agents target illegal immigrants for removal

Hire 10,000 additional ICE officers