Trump - "Illegal" immigration - Sam's view

**TargeT** · 16th May 2017 17:14

Posted by Bruno (here)
That was some AMAZING cherry picking of data, like. wow! notice how they changed the definition of violence and only focused on "in the home".. well yeah, cuz men die "out of the home" 90% of the time... haha that's just a cluster **** of disinformation and extremely biased.

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I thought this was a discussion of domestic violence and sexism in Muslim and nonmuslim populations? Not whether men or women get murdered more! Cherry picking? That's rich since you just shared data based on 63 participants opinions?
"A survey of 63 Muslim leaders showed that 10% of Muslims experienced physical abuse in their homes." (Is the quote I found from your linked article.)

Posted by Bruno (here)
Women in North America are still twice as likely to be killed by their husband or intimate partner as they are by a stranger.

I didn't see anything about domestic violence in there, sorry didn't know you wanted to focus soley on that.

And the one I linked was 23 family's not 63

(but there was that 63 one in there as well, it wasn't clearly from the US so I didn't include it).

It's very hard to gather statistics on 1% of 350,000,000 people when they are a fairly recent (in large numbers) addition to the region. That doesn't mean the statistics we do have should be tossed out.

Posted by Bruno (here)
Please compare apples to apples. If you can find me a stat that shows that Mosque attending Muslims batter their family members more than Church attending Christians I will be all ears.

I did, 23 families that moved from Bangladesh to Texas... you don't directly migrate from Bangladesh and NOT attend the mosque..

Posted by Bruno (here)
My original point is that if you are worried about immigrants coming here that treat women poorly than you should be worried about the people who have lived here for generations that treat women poorly. It is so hypocritical to be worried about immigrants influencing westerners in this regard.

Why wouldn't I be worried about both?? that's just not the topic of this thread, and I think I've shown that the "Muslim" issues are more pressing than "woman's rights" at this time.

I'm not at all worried about islam or muslims influencing the western world.. I am worried about people driving trucks through crowds, shooting randomly in night clubs, or schools etc... I don't see how this isn't a very clear distinction. There is no comparison here.

Posted by Bruno (here)
Especially since you (TargeT) don't believe that women have a hard time to begin with.

I never said that, everyone has a hard time..
Men are killed 400% more than women. Men represent 92% of on the job fatalities.. Men represent 99.999% of combat deaths. Men are: 76% of homicides – DOJ
80% of Suicides – CDC
There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.
Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.

Or does dying VASTLY MORE (and being raped vastly more) than women not constitute "a hard time"?

Maybe you see why your anecdotal stories of "my father wouldn't let my mother leave the house" as cute, but not comparable.

You champion what you feel is an important issue, I get that... I do not focus on any one issue, I prefer the larger picture; and it includes ALL of that, but you have to start somewhere and some things are more pressing than others.

What I'm concerned about is the Quran, I've read a good portion of it... What I'm concerned about is the historical examples, and by history, I mean like 2 days ago...

2017.05.14

Afghanistan, Mehtralam

Six children between the ages of 6 and 12 are dismembered by Sunni shrapnel.

**AutumnW** · 16th May 2017 18:57

Many of the sites frequented by people who are (perhaps justifiably islamophobic) are agenda driven and emotionally manipulative. There is a problem, granted, but perspective is lost when you immerse yourself in online tabloid style drek. The old, "if it bleeds, it leads," is worth reflecting on.

Your perspective is best served by remaining calm and assessing threat from a slightly detached perspective. That way propaganda can't get it's hooks into you. Propagandists and manipulators of all types, rely on emotional knee jerk reactions, where threat becomes exaggerated and our reasoning brains take a back seat.

Propaganda often leverages off of our own life experiences too. Flash, you would be understandably primed to accept questionable information about Islamic threat as true, because it would jive with your own negative experience.

Propagandists follow the line of least resistance, based on the belief structures and reliable emotional triggers of their Target audience. They ratchet up the storyline from there, in increments. They eventually have you believing EXACTLY what they want.

My personal take on the Islamic threat is that it is relatively small, relative to other risks. Are their beliefs annoying? For sure? I hate the crapola they believe. I hate that any Muslim mother has ever allowed her daughter to be genitally mutilated. It's repulsive. But...they are no threat to me. And I really do think that the greater society should work on improving itself so it can provide an alternative example that all radicalized individuals can more easily follow.

We need to be more dignified. We shouldn't be sexually promiscuous, as it ends up in a "hooking up" culture, which commodifies other human beings. We have to live and love in a way that others will want to be more like us. Right now we are no screaming Hell. And if I was an immigrant mother, I would be very worried my child would adopt the mainstream values of the dominant culture, in the U.S and Canada.

**TargeT** · 16th May 2017 20:53

Posted by AutumnW (here)
We need to be more dignified. We shouldn't be sexually promiscuous, as it ends up in a "hooking up" culture, which commodifies other human beings. We have to live and love in a way that others will want to be more like us. Right now we are no screaming Hell.

When you look at the situation from a Islamic perspective, it's hard not to agree with them... our "culture" is pretty perverse. I'm fine with that view point, just not the actions taken because of it.

Posted by AutumnW (here)
And if I was an immigrant mother, I would be very worried my child would adopt the mainstream values of the dominant culture, in the U.S and Canada.

And here's another reason I cast a dubious eye on Islamic migration to western cultures... we are, to a large majority, literally agents of "Satan" or the Djinn when they view us and how we live our lives.

Why would you ever go live with Satan if not to thwart him or try to "smite him"? (and they tell us this is the reason they "infiltrate" the infidels....)

For example:

chapter 8, verse 12: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

chapter 9, verse 5: "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush…."

chapter 5, verse 51 warns Muslims not to befriend Jews and Christians.

Infiltrating the Infidels
"Muslims know very well that the best way to conquer is not by the sword anymore," Fadi said.
"It's by infiltrating the societies, the political systems, and by basically taking their time to grow, to become a majority that at some point, they will have a voice that they can topple things basically to their advantage," he said.
With The Qur'an Dilemma, Fadi hopes to ensure that never happens.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/s.../?mobile=false

**AutumnW** · 16th May 2017 21:08

I don't know, Target. The whole,"we are so awful we should protect ourselves from people who are sensitive to the worst aspects of our culture" should best be addressed by changing ourselves, the way we relate to each other.

And foreign cultures aside, we should do it because it is the right thing to do and it will help us to live better lives. Western culture is so freaking sick. I am so embarrassed by it all. Amd don't get me wrong, I find their religious practices and ,any more things about the Islamic world pretty darned grosse for different reasons.

You provided a link to CBN, that's the Christian Broadcasting Network and evangelical in nature. Can you see that CBN might have an agenda and might not be the best source of information?

**TargeT** · 17th May 2017 00:15

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I don't know, Target. The whole,"we are so awful we should protect ourselves from people who are sensitive to the worst aspects of our culture" should best be addressed by changing ourselves, the way we relate to each other.

Yes, but we also live in reality, what you speak of, in the current Zeitgeist; would take what... decades? longer?

The finish line is the goal, but the next step comes first.

Posted by AutumnW (here)
And foreign cultures aside, we should do it because it is the right thing to do and it will help us to live better lives. Western culture is so freaking sick. I am so embarrassed by it all. Amd don't get me wrong, I find their religious practices and ,any more things about the Islamic world pretty darned grosse for different reasons.

I completely agree, but mixing two ****ed up cultures together and expecting it to go well is just very NOT intelligent. If there are refugees in the middle east, they should go to the middle east, to similar cultures... I would never send a Sunni to a Shiite region (both Islamic, both in Iraq) because they would kill each other (during my first deployment I worked in the largest "detainment" facility in the world; it was in a mostly shiite region and every single prisoner was Sunni.. if they escaped they would be killed or sometimes returned to us).

This conversation gets stuck in the weeds a lot, to restate my position on this: don't mix oil and water cultures... no judgement on oil or water being worse, they both have their own issues... but why would you take two failing system that at least one is diametrically opposed to the other? I'm much more "ok" with mass Mexican (catholic primarily) immigration, because that's not an oil and water situation.

Posted by AutumnW (here)
You provided a link to CBN, that's the Christian Broadcasting Network and evangelical in nature. Can you see that CBN might have an agenda and might not be the best source of information?

... this logical fallacy....

Please tell me how quotes from the Quran and an interview with someone is biased?

Want other links to the Quran? (btw, my whole point here is that the Quran has an anti-non believer agenda....)

http://corpus.quran.com/translation....ter=8&verse=12

http://corpus.quran.com/translation....pter=9&verse=5

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,...th_Non-Muslims

Skip the mental shortcut and address the data, the source is meaningless... Ignore the entire interview if you want, just read the passages from the Quran...

The situation should stay static till we both work out our issues.

**Flash** · 17th May 2017 00:36

Target, again with your false stats - how do you f.. do it to find stats and skew them completely

Or does dying VASTLY MORE (and being raped vastly more) than women not constitute "a hard time"?

THIS IS INCREDIBLE.

Where did you take those skewed stats - how did you proceed to be sooooooooo closed minded when it comes to violence against women

World stats, all over, show that on average 25% of women have been raped at least once in their life.

Now 7 billions divided by 2 ( I am generous cause past 30 there is more women than men), = 3,5 billion women from which 25% (divided by 4 ) = 800 million75 that have been raped.
So now, once and for all, tell yourself that you are completely beserk when it comes to women stats, women feeling, women lives and violence versus women and avoid a topic in which you are completely off. You would look much better

Now, if i extrapolate, are all your information as beserk and skewed. I should never ever read you, no more than I should Corey Goodie????? This is the feeling I get.

(not to undervalue violence against men, but definitley it is 2 weights 2 measures that you are using)
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By the way, those creating wars die have their counterparts die in it, those that fills the jails get raped (moslty men in jail - but I bet that as many women get raped in women jails), etc etc.

This is the last straw, I will never believe again anything you post.

Posted by TargeT (here)