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Thread: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Quote Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
    I currently have about 5 acres here with access to additional six hundred across the road. I dont' own the place and I won't get a mortgage or a contract on it since you can't own anything in Michigan anyway. Not real property anyway. But for 600 a month on 5k sq feet plus acreage my mortgage expense would far exceed my rent. I really stay in the place of "if I dont' own it, it can't be taken from me" There's a 2,500 sq work shop attached. . A real man cave that I hoped that someone would like to utilize for some sustainability projects. I had let the workshop to a couple different yahoo's who had come to do spirituality and sustainability type work, and had to ask them to leave shortly after as they were just out of control needy, disruptive, intrusion, destructive. Parasites. What is interesting is that once I finally let go of how I thought that workshop needed to be, someone came along who understood community. Young man, just 25 and he wasn't involved in spiritual or sustainability work but he understands how energy works even if not consciously. He absolutely LOVE S that shop, he is so proud of it I have to laugh. He contributes, I help him out with his work, he does repairs around here (built my hens not just a coop but a real deluxe chick de coupe inspite of the fact he HATES my chickens) really throws himself into the whole concept. HE's also fulfilled a number of problemic things I was having which was access to reasonable top soil, manure mixes , and means of busting up some of the uncared for depleted soil here.
    The right people are effortless to work with. Ah yes, poop from the coop. Good way to enrich poor soil.
    A few more people with similar attitudes but diversty of talents and you got something starting to happen. Need that common purpose though for focus.
    What do we do? What is our Y for anothers X. Can't go wrong with food though. Better than gold any-day. People are about to find that out.

    A lot of people at Omega are in their twenties. All very hippyish. As an old hippy I love it.
    Few people of any gender use razors and deodorants are shunned. With a vegetarian diet people smell different. Sweeter not so strong and pungent.
    The beautiful thing is you actually can sense people better when you can get a scent of them and their uniqueness in that spectrum of perception.

    We call ourselves Omegans

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    I am so glad I found this thread! Thank you all... especially write4change, your insight and wisdom is more than appreciated. As I said in my post on the thread "What happened to you???" I have altered my lifestyle a great deal over the last month in order to be more in alignment with my truth (#76 if anyone is curious ) part of this includes a focus on building a self sustaining community. This has all come about recently and I am so grateful that others have this same burning desire that I do! There is a different thread on this called "Avalon as a model community" and I will repost what I posted there because I would really like to start a dialogue on a set of principals or "laws" that we can agree to live by...


    ****************************************************************************************

    Hello all! grateful to be a part of this I feel like this is HUGE! I must say that it is easy to find things to disagree on. One of my biggest realizations over the last month has been that things are not absolute and that everything I though I knew is wrong... most of it anyway... I agree with Janos that we need to focus on the things we DO agree on, and there are many things if I may throw a few out here.

    1. We all deserve the freedom to exist in the world however we wish such that it does not directly impede on another mans freedom
    2. freedom is defined as exemption from external control, interference or regulation

    I have more ideas but I would like some input from others... oh and thank you 4thsky for the info on the Venus Project, I feel that unity is the KEY here, lets agree to disagree on some of this stuff and work on establishing a different way to live together. We have so much variance in our genetics we have to accept that we will have equally varied opinions and interpretations of our experiences.

    **************************************************************************************************** ***

    I also wanted to add that I feel like we EACH have our own strengths that can potentially contribute to the success of a community or group. I would even go so far as to say that it may be essential to our survival at some point that we are able to acknowledge and develop our strengths. I cant wait to see where this goes thanx again write4change!

    I look forward to contributing in any way I can, I am open to living in Texas for a year

    kamarie

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Good morning all. Waking up to progress is so invigorating.

    Eagle why is it impossible to own property in Michigan?

    Once I have accepted that I need to take action telling the stories of learning does not seem an immediate need but will evolve as part of the process. For a while I will focus on my skills and skills we need to attract.

    The other issue mentioned here is the need for a cohesive belief system. Another way of saying this is a simple mission statement that can be expressed and understood by all. This is the toughest part of the work and should be started now. Coming to community consensus is never easy.

    All communities that exist for any length of time I have a cohesive belief system. Since we are not selling earth destruction, you must have a plan for off the grid, sustainable living. Today the news in my major political site is that Texas, the only state in the union with a stand alone grid system, is experiencing rolling black outs right now.

    The reason I picked 36 as a the number of people for the group I want to form is because of the Legend of the Lamo Ved. sp? I will have to look this up. 36 numerically by the Kaballa is the double chai. Chai is the sign of dedication to life often expressed with an open palm with a seeing eye. The legend is that as long as 36 people silently vow to live a righteous life for all life, the world will go on. The minute there are not 36 people on the earth to keep this vow, the world ends. Also according to the Kaballa, at 18 you begin your adult life, and it is your learning period of coming to consciousness, but at 36 you begin your mature life and all your choices are from then on permanently accountable and in essence become karma.
    In the old days, Kaballa wisdom was never taught or studied until you became at least 36.

    One of the problems you have to address in Texas and places like it. Is to have a public personna that is acceptable to the locals. You cannot successfully be weird california type hippies. I will tell stories about this later.

    Thus, you can hold yourself out to be botanists in training and replicating the work of Chief Joseph and the three sisters etc. And get acceptance. You cannot say my spiritual life is to change the whole spiritual paradigm you are living under.

    I began my life on a farm in upstate New York specificlly Cohoes, New York. I lived with my grandparent for the first five years of my life. It grounded and centered me forever. I loved it but over the years my grandparents sold off the 50 acreas for housing lots to keep going. When they died they only had five left. I was indoctrinated like most Americans that this was a boring old way of life not worth living.

    When I took it up again as an adult, I have never found it boring. I have found it to be infinitely satisfying. I consider it painting with the earth. Cocreation.

    Part of my unusual background is that I am one of the first 13 women to attend Texas A & M in 1965. All of us were related to someone on campus in some form and had to get waivers. We were experiments in could the A & M culture survive with women? I was a history major. I got to take the history of military tactics taught by the grandson of a famous confederate general. It was an eye opening experience. My first husband was the class of 65, his father the class of 33, and his father the class of 03. I also took a class in animal husbandry and conservation farming just for electives thinking I would never really use them.

    In San Francisco at Golden Gate University I took courses in Urban Planning for fun because I understood even then that nothing of change will ever really come from inside. As long as you have to make a living at it, you have an agenda. It is only when you can stand outside of something that you are free to see clearly. I have been a parrenial student all my life and will remain so for the rest of my life. I still read about a book a day and have for most of my life.

    Because of my low self esteem issues, I never thought I deserved to live on the land so it was never something I consciously held out.

    In the early 80s, I got a certificate from UCLA in Interior and Environmental Design. In a way, this was validation of what I knew and did not know. I had been collecting antiques all my life. It turned out I was very good at that and this gave me the opportunity to refine and identify what I did not know to learn. The reality is we have had serious furniture only about 400 years and it does not take that much effort to learn it all from reading about 4 major books on the subject. I made more money percentage wise than my husband--- for instance my dinning room set I paid 2600 for in 1980---I sold for 16,000 in 1995 and I got to use it for 15 years. I am great at bringing in a definitive budget and a total looser at creating without parameters.

    One of the things I am instinctively good at is seeing before hand and understanding water flow. I married my second husband just as he was in the process of building a three story condominium complex in LA. This was in the height of the Reagan recession and 22% interest rates. Many of his friends were loosing their shirts. I saved his choices design wise--he had a terrible architect as far as I was concerned. The big unique feature of these condos were very large terraced patios projecting off the building. They sort of cascaded from one to the other and the drainage was designed to flow one to the other down. When I looked at this I told my husband that the first hard fast rain would flood the bottom floor. He poohed me and said you don't have architectural initials after your name. We got that rain before we came on line but we had already laid the carpet. The entire bottom floor had to be recarpeted and re wall papered.

    So I built a custom home in San Antonio, I designed it and had a local general contractor 30 years old build it for me. Boy, did we have some fights. He was one of those guys who said yes yes yes to get the contract and then thought he could do what ever he wanted. He knew my husband was a lawyer but did not know he was a builder investor. Nor did he take seriously that I considered myself a designer. The lot backed up to a federal flood plain. Before we put in the drive way and the hardscape landscape we got a huge rain in the night. I went out to look at the crack of dawn at the river behind the house. Where is was and how it flowed. I see 4 foot ruts where the drive is going to be and down the side lawn. I tell the builder stop everything this has to be redesigned. He says no. I call my husband and he tells the builder when my wife says we have a water problem, we have a water problem. Let her fix it period.

    After we moved in--working on the flood plain became sort of a hobby for me. If before this time, I had said to my husband I want to life on a ranch he would have said you are crazy. I took three acres behind the house that prior to us living there was mowed three times a year to keep the snakes down and turned it into a park. I started push mowing the parameter six inches at a time the weeds/grass was so thick. In that process I had to pick up all the rocks as I went. There were beautiful old oaks all around the paremeter of the plain but because they "belonged" to no one and the federal government saw only a flood control path--the trees were seen as obstacles. Often they were uprooted and then floated down with the floods to where they would catch on bridges and then be chopped up and hauled away. I put all the rocks on the three acres I cleared on the tree roots. These trees never got uprooted. Once I got the whole area mowed, I sowed low rainfall bermuda which gradually choked out most of the weeds. Then I sowed wild flowers all around the edges. By that time to keep it my husband bought me a riding mower. It changed the whole appearance of the neighborhood and the sense of community for the kids. They had a communal place to play where their parents could watch from their houses on the hills. The kids took up keeping it when we left. Interesting no one above or below me tried to do the same or organize to do it.
    My husband learned that since I diligently pursued this with no agenda but loving the earth that I wasn't all talk and no walk. Thus, we bought 20 acres in the Hill Country 30 miles north of San Antonio.

    End of this bit.
    Beware the axis of sanctimony.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Texas is one of the few states left where property ownership is actual ownership . IUnless something has changed. In Michigan as it is most other places its equable use 'ownership' where the title of the property states that the person paying the note is only the 'tenant'. You think you own it or are at least pyaing on it but you don't even after you've paid the note. I don't and won't own anything of major value.

    My car was recently repo-ed. Was actually a month ahead in payment, insurance all paid up. Bye Bye Car. I guess this was based on a few late payments I' made over a year ago. (they'd been looking for the car for a year...lol) I spoke to a lawyer and he said banks were yanking all sorts of properties and holding them for hostage. Homes, cars and not for the typical reasons. Just looking for a default in the contract, they can make some money off of. I wasn't interested in being a hostage so I didn't even bother to find out what happened to it. They broke the transaxle hauling it off so I wasn't overly anxious in reclaiming a screwed up car. A month goes by and I guess the bank was puzzled as to why I wasn't calling to find out what happened to car. They called me, to give me 'last option' before it went to auction (with broke axle presumably) and rattled off a list 'fees, fines' etc in order to release the car. I told them it was their car, they pay the fees. Then they got desperate calling me back and offering to cut this fee, that fee. No no no, I shrug. Not thanks. You essentially just drug off 600 dollars in debt and I'm having a good time with that extra disposable income.

    My family settled in KY at the turn of the century (after being run off their hereditary lands in Ireland). No vehicles, no electricity, nearly complete sustainability. They only left to go down in the flatlands to barter. In the 1950's the government forced my family and extended family off the land so they could make it a public property. Now its a National Park to honor the interprid pioneering spirit of America . After they stole if from the intrepid pioneers.

    Used to not owning things. It's in my blood

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    We have to look at the good and bad of Texas. One of the things that blew me away on ranch in California versus the ranch in Texas: after I fired some of these people, they would not leave. I called the police and they would tell the police we had this oral contract bs etc. And the police would tell me this is a civil dispute and you will have to go to court. Took me a while to learn how to function in this environment. I also had to go down to one of the Four Square churches and tell their pastor to stop sending people up to my property offering to work for a day etc. All this did was open me up to people identifying things and ways to steal them.

    In Texas if you own property and you want to fire someone--they are gone. You don't tell some Texas Ranger I have an oral contract etc. It is show me what you are owed and why or get your body out of here. Period. I could even accept in California that if they are living on the property they should get 30 day notice but this gives them ample opportunity to steal stuff. I learned to no longer let employees live on the property for any reason. Then I found out in California that if you live on a property as a house guest for 30 days you now have rights of notice etc and can take someone to court over oral agreements.

    And I learned in Texas to make sure that you are buying a fee simple contract. That is why going to someplace like Perryton is pretty easy. Most mortgages are financed locally. These kind of towns do not support Bank of America types. Everybody there knows what the property is worth and so 30% down on a low doc loan is done all the time.

    So for 36 people on a 200,000 price the down payment for each one is less than 1700 dollars. To secure it you just need to prove that two of the members of the partnership have social security guaranteed pensions equaling twice the monthly payment of about 800.00 a month. Before you buy you need to incorporate to a limited liability partnership. you need to decide the price you are willing to pay and you need to have the down payment in the bank under the corp control.

    One of the the first things I would do is plant about 30 pecan trees with drip irrigation. The Pecan Trees alone will establish the property as agricultural producing and it is then taxed at a much lower rate. You also get utilities cheaper. And most of all so many pecan groves have been destroyed by tract housing that the price is steadily rising. In ten years, an average pecan tree produces a $1000 a year income. So the trees alone will pay the cost of the mortgage and most utilities leaving people free to do what they want to do. Meanwhile, a serious approach to this is the old hooking up with the young. We have the steady pensions as long as there is full faith and credit of the US. And when that is gone we are in no worse shape than 80% of Americans. If it is too cold for pecans, then walnuts. On the ranch in Santa Clarita I had walnuts and the big deal was the crows. LOL Walnuts are slower growing but the wood is now worth a small fortune, they will take about anything for veneers. So even the prunings are valuable. Another consideration, is how you take title. If the old take it, with an iron clad agreement with the young--Texas way of dealing with prop 13 issues--is that once retired and on a fixed income your taxes are frozen for life.

    I point all these issues out as we go so we make our best choices. None of these are made choices just things to reflect on how doable this is. If we have an event and if you have to live where you survived--how will you do it?

    Looking at this totally flat land with intense sun, if you can bury your solar cells deeply enough not to be effect by electro magnetic ism... I am hoping some of you are going to research this kind of stuff--it is not my field. That is what community is about finding the right niche for everyone.

    If you think about this as creating an earthship---remembering Star Trek--the man who disposes of the ship's garbage was, like everyone else, necessary to the survival of the ship. Not just in disposing of the garbage but in the right way, in the right place, and at the right time because it left an identifiable trail in space which told not only where they were but where they had been and who and what was contained in the ship.

    In speaking of change: when white man came to America raccoons were not nocturnal. They learned to be nocturnal in order to survive the white man hunting them to extinction for hats and coats. Survival is a big motivator for change. When you look at the Western United States and realize from your eyes that this area has been submerged three times. And that the fact of universal geological events has been kept from us by our governments on purpose.

    The other thing about Perryton---it has better odds about surviving a nuclear war. There is nothing there to make a worth while target. There will be no huge bombs but tactical nukes. Why will the powers that be want nuclear war just before this? Because they want to emerge from their holes free and clear and not have to deal with anyone not of their mind set. Nuclear war just before a pole shift means that atmosphere is cleaned out and the much of the populations destroyed will simply be swept away. It is actually the safest time to do it. On that level I raise my consciousness to ETs not going to allow that to happen. And maybe the few good citizens that already prevented it once. Consciousness is being prepared and observant. You ignore nothing.

    To show how spirituality works in a culture. Did you know in India that if you die from a snake bit you cannot be cremated and dispersed in the Ganges? The reason being is that living in harmony in the jungle meant paying attention and being conscious. There are many kinds of poisonous snakes in India. Getting snake bit means you choose not to pay attention. Choosing an unconscious life is not acceptable in India. Much of how India lives today is influenced by the West but they were for centuries the most spiritual nation on the earth.
    Beware the axis of sanctimony.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Quote Posted by doodah (here)
    Did you say Texas has no land taxes?
    Texas has land (real estate) taxes.

    They are one of few states without an income tax -- perhaps that was the source of confusion.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Looking at what you can do with your solar cells. I had a neighbor put some in. I allowed Southern California Edison to lie to me because I did not understand at the time that corps do that. I thought it was to their advantage to work with me on this.

    The solar panels my neighbors put in were about a foot in depth and six feet by two feet. They put in 4 and with all the stuff to go with it--storage, conversion, wiring etc. it cost 35,000 and it paid for itself in less than three years. They had theirs on a side of a hill and only got sunlight about six hours a day.

    In a clear flat area like this, flat they will take sun about 10 hours a day. You can elevate them maybe 8 feet in the air. Underneath them you can plant things that cannot withstand that intense Texas sun. And again you run drip irrigation underneath.

    Out in the sun and in an area where erosion is a problem you plant the Indian three sisters way. You plant corn, beans and squash at the same time. The squash spreads out and covers the ground and the beans climb up the corn. In this combination, they weather most things and actually do better together than alone. You keep at least two horses for all kinds of work. Horse manure unlike cow manure is very dry out in the open and does not attract flies. Horse manure composted is not messy or disgusting.

    Another consideration is storage of food. Buying a steel shipping containers now are not that expensive. Then you insulate with R 32 by laying chicken wire over the insulation and typing it in the sides etc. Insulate all 4 sides using pavers on the bottom. Then you rent of hire a neighbor with equipment to dig you a pond. All the dirt from the pond gets thrown over the container and then you plant some kind of vines in the dirt to hold everything in place. You now have a great mound for many creative uses and you have a substantial pond. I have built 5 in my life now. You bring them into ecological balance with gravel and sand filtration, plants and fish, and periodically adding the enzymes and bacteria. This gives you a natural recreation place--absolutely no peeing aloud. And you can produce corn fed cat fish with very little effort. It is possible depending on conditions to build a small windmill for aeration of the water if needed and or as making well water come up to the pond.

    The trees need pruning once a year and fertilizing once a year. The three sisters plant and fertilize at the same time. The harvest is how you want to do it. Some every day--all at once probably both. The fish you throw corn every day they will get tame and actually let you pet them coming to feed. In this area there are no water mocassins to start and it is too far for them to crawl. Rattle snakes need attention paid but usually give fair warning and no one pokes under stones or holes stupidly. So you have an income crop, stables crop, a protein crop of fish without a great deal of aggravation.

    One of the reasons you want to be friends and part of the community, is that you will be really small. Tractor needs will be initial and then rare. Buying and maintaining a big tractor is a wasted of time and money. Being able to rent and hire from your neighbors is important. In Texas I planted six acres of sorgum sp? which produced really well. Got those huge rolling barrels of it. I hired my neighbor to plant it for $300 and for him on his machines it was a couple of hours work. He produced huge fields of it. He also produced some bermuda alfa hay. I had 5 horses. I gave him all the sorgum for him giving me a barn load of hay. To produce his hay--he had field irrigation which I did not nor did the sorgum need. So it cost me 300 a year to feed my horses. cheap and effective and appreciative bonds formed.

    I worked a 20 acre ranch in Texas entirely by myself. Besides the pecans which I put in I had a small orchard that was there when I bought it. I also had a small green house that was there. It was made by stacking cinder blocks as a base then building a 2 by 4 Frame and then coving with simple sheets of PVC plastic. I grew all kinds of herbs, tomatoes etc. in it all year round. For a heavy duty weather environment===they have a kind of lucite that mimicks corrugated steel roofing. I had a five acre front lawn. From March to November I mowed two hours a day on a small deerfield riding tractor. I did a lot of meditating on that tractor. My husband said he could see I was happiest on that tractor.

    On the ranch that I totally cared for I had 5 horses, 5 dogs, at least a dozen cats, free range chickens, two goats, two llamas, a raccoon, and a flock of guinea hens. They are the best security system you can have. Don't ask me how but they learn the property lines they belong to. They hunt all day on the ground in a flock for various insects and snake like things. They roost in the trees at night. I fed them once a day in the morning and they spent the rest of the time doing their own thing. They were more wild than tame. When anything strange appears, it is the guinea hens that set up a ruckus.

    I am a horse whisper and train very well. In California I hold a state title 4 years in a row. Something that has never been done before. One of my horses liked dressage so much I could his music on and he would practice by himself in the round pen. I have sold horses that I paid 5,000 for 50,000 after I trained them. Some things I am now too old to do consistently but I can still teach.

    Next up the community housing.
    Beware the axis of sanctimony.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    IMO, they fail because those humans were unable to lay down the ego and live from the Heart. It's a struggle but we are getting better at it and more of us are starting to do it. Our powers are there, we must use them now.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Quote Posted by mymoonlightshines (here)
    I am so glad I found this thread! Thank you all... especially write4change, your insight and wisdom is more than appreciated. As I said in my post on the thread "What happened to you???" I have altered my lifestyle a great deal over the last month in order to be more in alignment with my truth (#76 if anyone is curious ) part of this includes a focus on building a self sustaining community. This has all come about recently and I am so grateful that others have this same burning desire that I do! There is a different thread on this called "Avalon as a model community" and I will repost what I posted there because I would really like to start a dialogue on a set of principals or "laws" that we can agree to live by...


    ****************************************************************************************

    Hello all! grateful to be a part of this I feel like this is HUGE! I must say that it is easy to find things to disagree on. One of my biggest realizations over the last month has been that things are not absolute and that everything I though I knew is wrong... most of it anyway... I agree with Janos that we need to focus on the things we DO agree on, and there are many things if I may throw a few out here.

    1. We all deserve the freedom to exist in the world however we wish such that it does not directly impede on another mans freedom
    2. freedom is defined as exemption from external control, interference or regulation

    I have more ideas but I would like some input from others... oh and thank you 4thsky for the info on the Venus Project, I feel that unity is the KEY here, lets agree to disagree on some of this stuff and work on establishing a different way to live together. We have so much variance in our genetics we have to accept that we will have equally varied opinions and interpretations of our experiences.

    **************************************************************************************************** ***

    I also wanted to add that I feel like we EACH have our own strengths that can potentially contribute to the success of a community or group. I would even go so far as to say that it may be essential to our survival at some point that we are able to acknowledge and develop our strengths. I cant wait to see where this goes thanx again write4change!

    I look forward to contributing in any way I can, I am open to living in Texas for a year

    kamarie
    Freedom is both a simple and complex subject. In the communities of the future telepathy will be more and more part of things. This then addresses the need for alignment in vision of the community, just as all the cells of an organ must be on the same page or trouble results. A meditation of the deeper aspects of this might intrude on what people feel is the freedom to think whatever they want. Yes, that freedom must exist but people of with more unique or culture specific concepts will probably need to establish their own little utopias.

    As write4change has so aptly elucidated in her postings, one of the biggest problems with these communities lies with people who are looking for freedom from work, freedom from contribution and responsibility for the welfare of the whole.

    With freedom comes great responsibility and emotional maturity. This dearth of such in society at large is very much responsible for the mess we find ourselves in and have found ourselves in for many long years. People willing to give up almost every freedom to a daddy overgroup so they can myopically focus on their own personal needs without concern for the whole.

    There needs to be an aristocracy of some sorts. It needs to be small and in symbiosis with the rest of the group. The queen of a beehive is an absolute necessity but her own children are also the workers and artisans.

    Freedom calls many, if not most. Screening will be crucial to success.

    Sober thoughts to balance the intoxication of liberty.

    Modwiz

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Quote Posted by write4change (here)
    Looking at what you can do with your solar cells. I had a neighbor put some in. I allowed Southern California Edison to lie to me because I did not understand at the time that corps do that. I thought it was to their advantage to work with me on this.

    The solar panels my neighbors put in were about a foot in depth and six feet by two feet. They put in 4 and with all the stuff to go with it--storage, conversion, wiring etc. it cost 35,000 and it paid for itself in less than three years. They had theirs on a side of a hill and only got sunlight about six hours a day.

    In a clear flat area like this, flat they will take sun about 10 hours a day. You can elevate them maybe 8 feet in the air. Underneath them you can plant things that cannot withstand that intense Texas sun. And again you run drip irrigation underneath.

    Out in the sun and in an area where erosion is a problem you plant the Indian three sisters way. You plant corn, beans and squash at the same time. The squash spreads out and covers the ground and the beans climb up the corn. In this combination, they weather most things and actually do better together than alone. You keep at least two horses for all kinds of work. Horse manure unlike cow manure is very dry out in the open and does not attract flies. Horse manure composted is not messy or disgusting.

    Another consideration is storage of food. Buying a steel shipping containers now are not that expensive. Then you insulate with R 32 by laying chicken wire over the insulation and typing it in the sides etc. Insulate all 4 sides using pavers on the bottom. Then you rent of hire a neighbor with equipment to dig you a pond. All the dirt from the pond gets thrown over the container and then you plant some kind of vines in the dirt to hold everything in place. You now have a great mound for many creative uses and you have a substantial pond. I have built 5 in my life now. You bring them into ecological balance with gravel and sand filtration, plants and fish, and periodically adding the enzymes and bacteria. This gives you a natural recreation place--absolutely no peeing aloud. And you can produce corn fed cat fish with very little effort. It is possible depending on conditions to build a small windmill for aeration of the water if needed and or as making well water come up to the pond.

    The trees need pruning once a year and fertilizing once a year. The three sisters plant and fertilize at the same time. The harvest is how you want to do it. Some every day--all at once probably both. The fish you throw corn every day they will get tame and actually let you pet them coming to feed. In this area there are no water mocassins to start and it is too far for them to crawl. Rattle snakes need attention paid but usually give fair warning and no one pokes under stones or holes stupidly. So you have an income crop, stables crop, a protein crop of fish without a great deal of aggravation.

    One of the reasons you want to be friends and part of the community, is that you will be really small. Tractor needs will be initial and then rare. Buying and maintaining a big tractor is a wasted of time and money. Being able to rent and hire from your neighbors is important. In Texas I planted six acres of sorgum sp? which produced really well. Got those huge rolling barrels of it. I hired my neighbor to plant it for $300 and for him on his machines it was a couple of hours work. He produced huge fields of it. He also produced some bermuda alfa hay. I had 5 horses. I gave him all the sorgum for him giving me a barn load of hay. To produce his hay--he had field irrigation which I did not nor did the sorgum need. So it cost me 300 a year to feed my horses. cheap and effective and appreciative bonds formed.

    I worked a 20 acre ranch in Texas entirely by myself. Besides the pecans which I put in I had a small orchard that was there when I bought it. I also had a small green house that was there. It was made by stacking cinder blocks as a base then building a 2 by 4 Frame and then coving with simple sheets of PVC plastic. I grew all kinds of herbs, tomatoes etc. in it all year round. For a heavy duty weather environment===they have a kind of lucite that mimicks corrugated steel roofing. I had a five acre front lawn. From March to November I mowed two hours a day on a small deerfield riding tractor. I did a lot of meditating on that tractor. My husband said he could see I was happiest on that tractor.

    On the ranch that I totally cared for I had 5 horses, 5 dogs, at least a dozen cats, free range chickens, two goats, two llamas, a raccoon, and a flock of guinea hens. They are the best security system you can have. Don't ask me how but they learn the property lines they belong to. They hunt all day on the ground in a flock for various insects and snake like things. They roost in the trees at night. I fed them once a day in the morning and they spent the rest of the time doing their own thing. They were more wild than tame. When anything strange appears, it is the guinea hens that set up a ruckus.

    I am a horse whisper and train very well. In California I hold a state title 4 years in a row. Something that has never been done before. One of my horses liked dressage so much I could his music on and he would practice by himself in the round pen. I have sold horses that I paid 5,000 for 50,000 after I trained them. Some things I am now too old to do consistently but I can still teach.

    Next up the community housing.
    Write4change,
    These posting of yours are must reading IMO. If people are fired up then their imaginations should be running wild in wonderfully creative ways. Your experience and accomplishments would help refine this storm of manifestation into more coherent patterns and both insert and eliminate ideas that would work.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    There is something about solitude. Solitude and freedom some to be intrinsically connected to each other. Taking on something that 'seemingly' is too much for one person to handle. The person who has been on their own as a challenge or an adventure understands first hand the principles of taking care of self> " I used to think to myself if you have never been alone to take care of yourself alone and invest that time in doing for yourself, not out of selfishness but simply knowing how to care for yourself on all levels, how would you grow the appropriate attitude required for helping to take care of others and contribute to their welfare. If you can't do it on your own, I mean.

    Whole lot of people can't stand their own company and can't run their lives because their lives are running them. I think they seek out communities to NOT be alone. And some people have simply NEVER been alone. Having hopped from parents, to spouse, to divorce to relationsip to relationship. It would be an interesting question to ask someone if they have ever lived on their own fully. Complete self responsibility. Part of my own solitude has taught me the importance of not just contributing but learning to accept what's offered not just for myself but for the good of the greater going on around me. There is an intricate nuance involved in giving and receiving , some people give with an agenda and some give from the heart.

    Not to mention self governance and authority.

    Quote Posted by modwiz (here)
    Freedom is both a simple and complex subject. In the communities of the future telepathy will be more and more part of things. This then addresses the need for alignment in vision of the community, just as all the cells of an organ must be on the same page or trouble results. A meditation of the deeper aspects of this might intrude on what people feel is the freedom to think whatever they want. Yes, that freedom must exist but people of with more unique or culture specific concepts will probably need to establish their own little utopias.

    As write4change has so aptly elucidated in her postings, one of the biggest problems with these communities lies with people who are looking for freedom from work, freedom from contribution and responsibility for the welfare of the whole.

    With freedom comes great responsibility and emotional maturity. This dearth of such in society at large is very much responsible for the mess we find ourselves in and have found ourselves in for many long years. People willing to give up almost every freedom to a daddy overgroup so they can myopically focus on their own personal needs without concern for the whole.

    There needs to be an aristocracy of some sorts. It needs to be small and in symbiosis with the rest of the group. The queen of a beehive is an absolute necessity but her own children are also the workers and artisans.

    Freedom calls many, if not most. Screening will be crucial to success.

    Sober thoughts to balance the intoxication of liberty.

    Modwiz

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    I have to go to bed but have to say the steel container is inspiring. And easy. I'm wondering what sort of smokehouse something like that would make. If one got around the paint on it in some fashion. And the horses....(that may derail thread)

    So much too delve into.

    Thanks...

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Quote Posted by doodah (here)
    This is kind of fun... anyone else want to contribute questions?
    4. Are you dedicated to being a thoughtful person? Nice. Nice is maybe undervalued these days.

    5. Are you capable of feeling all your feelings and then moving on with action?

    6. Do you have any gold, silver, precious stones or other trinkets for trading/barter in a non-fiat world?

    7. Do you really really really want to survive?

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Eagle,

    You are right about standing your own company. I have seen many people try this only to find out it is a fantasy. You have to love the work and when you do that it is not work but love. I love watching the stone wall rise, I love seeing the stalls get clean, I love seeing the earth bloom and the butterflies celebrate. I love working to exhaustion and then lying under a tree and feeling the goodness of the earth and know I just gave her my best.

    A lot of people can stand the silence. A lot of people can't stand turning into the pace of nature. A lot of people are addicted to drama and distraction. My washer overflowed. I am in crisis. Not a clue what a real crisis is.

    By the way is sh...t considered a bad word here and not allowed? Or just your personal preference?

    Why would horses derail the thread. I am not into doing that kind of training etc. In a world after this you will need them to work. I am just saying I have really done my homework with certain kinds of animals we will need. The point of doing all this is to do all the thinking required. Because I have failed at this, i know how much better you have to plan. And like Sol Va says do we really really really want to survive?

    The fact many people are looking away means they don't. And many are like children that don't understand death means for form as we know it THE END. I have friends that want everything to collapse so everyone is forced to start over. They just have no idea what the consequences are that they are asking. Many people who think they are libertarians will be in for a rude awakening.

    And if there is such a physical state can I vibrate fast enough to get the ETs to beam up my animals. LOL
    Beware the axis of sanctimony.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Hello everybody,

    w4c, I'll have to study all your responses, there's almost too much information there to take in easily. I did see one thing that caught my eye, though, and it was about a statement of purpose or something like that. I would hope that our thinking and planning would be for the final stages of total collapse.

    Drip irrigation needs electricity if you mean the systems I've seen, all that piping... I would suggest that we plan for easily maintained low-tech power sources - windmills, waterwheels, gravity feeds, etc. - or are you thinking that we would be using the current power system??

    I would definitely want to go with the Earth ships. You can heat them with a 40 watt bulb if you've got electricity, or candles, if you've got candles!

    No disrepect intended, but living at Omega is not really a synonym for end of the world planning, I don't think. You're not going to have the best of everything. You're going to have what you can make with your own hands without a backhoe or chainsaw and what you can grow, and also importantly, store.

    So, as to a statement of purpose, I don't know if I'm thinking more radically than others here? Almost every community I've seen is not really prepared to go it alone. Almost all of them are still using the system. In half of them people go back into the system to work each day, or they go to the movies on the weekend or they fly somewhere to visit relatives. I don't want to do any of that, which makes my thinking more like the Amish, perhaps?

    I wouldn't want there to be an aristocracy or workerbees, not in a population of 36 permanent residents. Everybody will have to be a workerbee. Everybody will have to do the jobs nobody wants to do, more like Gandhi's ashram.

    I know of a very successful survival community that has a year's worth of food stored away. It has been accomplished by 3 families that moved from Wisconsin to Virginia 37 years ago. They lived in tents for three years while they built structures. They are totally off the grid. Once established, they built cabins scattered through the woods where people can visit for periods of time and contribute labor to the community. It is the three families that are the aristocracy there; everyone else is transient.

    I want to be a permanent resident, part of the core and the labor force that makes this community work. I would expect and plan for no help from outside.

    I'll try to catch up on all the info here tomorrow so I can better be up to speed and join more in the dialogue. 9eagle, that young man sounds like a wonderful candidate. Do you think he'd like to join us?

    'Night all,
    ~ Doodah

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Modwiz has graciously said he would help me post pictures and stuff in his own way and time. I need to inform you all that I have very limited abilities on the computer. I was kicked in the face by a horse when I was 58. I awoke in the ER without a memory. Most of my recovery has been on my own learning from the web. Finding out about neural plasticity. Using brain luminosity etc. That is why you may sense in me this drive to pass on stuff that I know and stuff that I have.

    The houses you are going to see. Are cheap, creative, highly functional and wonderful to live in when you decide you are no longer into stuff per se. There is a test village in Victorville, California I have visited. All of the progress on this came to a halt when Bush came in. This technology was developed by an Iranian. TPTB do not want safe, clean, beautiful housing available on the cheap. An the inventor Nadir Khalili died a few years ago. Somewhere on the net is a speed film version of one of these earthships being built in 24 hours.

    I have a book on this with detailed pictures and it is titled Earth as Our Home. These things have survived tornadoes, typhoones, cyclones, sand storms etc. they are warm in winter and cool in summer. They are easy to individualize and many people make them into works of art. So far they have not been allowed to be built any where but out in the boonies. they were originally invented for lunar housing on the moon. Before his death, he formed this non profit and make the plans etc. available for free. All to no avail.

    I hope you click on and then google and see a bunch of these. Everytime I do -- it makes me feel warm and fuzzy remembering how it feels to sleep in one.

    to me this is co creation with the Earth.
    Beware the axis of sanctimony.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Thanks very much for this thread, hopefully i'll have something to contribute once i get my thaughts together

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Quote Doodah wrote
    No disrepect intended, but living at Omega is not really a synonym for end of the world planning, I don't think. You're not going to have the best of everything. You're going to have what you can make with your own hands without a backhoe or chainsaw and what you can grow, and also importantly, store.
    I was not suggesting synonyms.

    What is most important about Omega is the human factor. No matter how ingenious the infrastructure is conceived it will be of no avail with out an emotionally healthy and spiritual aligned people. Most people get distracted with hardware and the material considerations and assume that everyone will just get along well because in TV and movies no matter how tough things get they all work out by the end of the script. In most scripts anyway. I stand by my positing the importance of the human factor.

    Quote I wouldn't want there to be an aristocracy or workerbees, not in a population of 36 permanent residents. Everybody will have to be a workerbee. Everybody will have to do the jobs nobody wants to do, more like Gandhi's ashram.
    Is there no overseer/coordinator at the Ashram? Like the beehive analogy, there needs to be at least one coordinator which is resonant with the concept of aristocrat. My language use takes some poetic license.

    Quote I wouldn't want there to be an aristocracy.....
    Quote I know of a very successful survival community that has a year's worth of food stored away. It has been accomplished by 3 families that moved from Wisconsin to Virginia 37 years ago. They lived in tents for three years while they built structures. They are totally off the grid. Once established, they built cabins scattered through the woods where people can visit for periods of time and contribute labor to the community. It is the three families that are the aristocracy there; everyone else is transient.
    I hope you will forgive me for perceiving a little cognitive dissonance here

    Thank you for your comments
    Last edited by modwiz; 3rd February 2011 at 07:51.

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Write4change has requested that I post this website for your perusal and possible delight. I have not had a chance to dig in but as a meal it looks extremely palatable.

    http://calearth.org/

    Enjoy

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    Default Re: Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

    Doodah,

    I have given a lot of thought to your posts. And the issues you raise need reflection.

    1. My goal is build a community totally off the grid. But you have to start with what you have. The problem with Zeitgeist is not that they are wrong. They are right but their plan is so big and so all inclusive that there is no path to get there. If you are going to build these big planned cities and they would have to be big to be viable: 1. as the world exists today, you can't do anything without money. so everyone has to make a living some how, 2. You have to the use the energy currently available to make better energy. It still takes energy and money to build a windmill. The better the tech the more expensive to build. 3. You're going to take down Cleveland and simply start over because Cleveland needs that? Or where in the boonies are you going to find the ways and means to do it. 4. And if the ETs even handed it to you, how do people suddenly change their mind set to make the city work and function?

    Perryton, Texas and that area is pretty windy. You can build a wooden windmill with canvas sails like the Dutch which will produce enough energy to run drip irrigation. But that is just one issue. You have to decide on the whole plan and each piece has to be thought about. What are you going to produce and why? The joy of living for me is creating and producing. Life feels good with a purpose. I have some ideas in mind and I share them. If I am on the right track the universe opens more doors and windows and like attracts like and we work on it.

    This is a difficult plan because it has many layers. 1. What we choose has to be able to be implemented in less than a year if we move in September/October. 2. It has to be cheap enough that money is not the determining factor. 3. It should be for most people, who are willing to choose this, a life plan. 4. If most people just want to take a year out to wait and see; you must be able to disband without a lot of pain to the people involved. 5. You have to have a plan if life just continues as we know it and you want off the grid and the rat wheel. That means you have to be acceptable to your community and you need to see your community as a resource center that you contribute to. 6. If you also have to take in planning for a major crisis and surviving it, you have to plan address all the issues of the worst case scenario. You can store seed etc. but what animals and, you will need animals, can you save. You will need animals for a variety of things here--even if you no long eat them and you might need to do that in small amount in total devastation-- you will need fat to make candles and soap. And in 1960 I won my HS science fair in chemistry for doing just that. I spent six months experimenting with all the ancient soaps to modern that I heard about and made samples of each. So there has to be an element that I was born to do this.

    What is the easiest animal to preserve--for all kinds of things--rabbits. You dig down deep enough in the earth you think they will survive. You line that earth with hardware cloth to keep other predators out. In this pretty big hole in the earth you fill it back up with fiberglass dog igloos in various places and dirt surrounding each one. You put in some large PVC pipe for tunnels for them to move around in and leaving them room to learn to be semi wild again and dig their own. Just before the event you cram a bunch of corn seed in and alfa hay bales down there cover it all up and seal it all up and eventually hope for the best. Same as you are going to do for yourself and the rest of the community.

    No plan will succeed without the grace of the universe and the understanding of the spirituality that the community must choose and stand on. One of the things i will bring is a thousand books. Knowing me by the time we are ready to seal I will have another 1000 and I will be getting more selective. You can seal those up in those steel containers. Not only am I a teacher, historian, and researcher -- I was an ER nurse for 10 years in LA. I know as much as any doctor did in the 1930s for sure more when it comes to theory knowledge and as much when it comes to treatment. That will be important for the group to have. I will bring some basic medical books. But we will make list of things that we will want to store to face that kind of crisis. Here in LA I can get good reading glasses for 99 cents. I will want to store about 50 of them in different strengths. you have to look at the things people will need and there will not be any for a long time.

    One of the things I highly recommend is reading and seeing the Postman again. What do they have? What are they missing? What has high value? How many bottles of sealed aspirin and stuff like that do you want to store?

    There are videos I would choose for everyone to see. Basically, if things stay the same without a physical catastrophe we are still going to have complete political and financial collapse because the PTB are not that smart. Or they are so smart they are stupid. Their plan is like starting a fire to easily get rid of the weeds and then they loose control because they never thought thru the worse case scenario. They believe their power points. They believe in their own power of creation. They believe they are making history and they are but not the way they think.

    That is why I believe small groups will do much better. you are no threat and therefore no target. there is great beauty in just living your own life and letting everyone else do the same. I am personally not into any kind of aristocracy concept. But all forma of leadership are on the plate while the group that is becoming makes it decision.

    Actively try looking at some films that go back to the 1870s. They did not have no energy, they had low energy. It was not a terrible life but it was a hard working life for everyone but in those days people did not think it was such a hard life on a whole. There is a BBC series documentary about these people who were given an abandoned farm for a year on some Lord's estate. I think it is about 16 hours and I watched it all. Eventually I will want someone who knows how to make copies of it. What you see is them making all this stuff and exactly how it is done. They bring in these old people who are the last of their kind on some of these crafts. They show how to make baskets out of tree bark that last a hundred years. I had seen some of those baskets and I had no idea they were made out of treebark much less how to do it. That stuck with me because it was so surprising. But I saw my grandparents do some of this stuff. Make ginger beer, and dandelion wine etc.

    People who are attracted to this not only have to do lots of things that I listed like switching to vegan diet gradually but they will have to decide what they want to learn and start doing it. From crafts to playing the harmonica.......This choice is not for the weak or the weak minded.
    Last edited by write4change; 3rd February 2011 at 16:43.
    Beware the axis of sanctimony.

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