Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

[Chester]

No it isn't.

I know this because I am literally stark raving enlightened.

[greybeard]

Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
No it isn't.

I know this because I am literally stark raving enlightened.

Can I join your club Sam?
Pretty please.
Im knocking on the door that's open.
Well I have one qualification (not talking about the One that matters)
Im not normal--whatever that is Lol.
Please don't take me seriously.
All the best
Chris

[Jhonie]

Posted by animovado (here)

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

[Caliban]

Posted by Jhonie (here)
What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

You ask the good questions. Because they're the simplest questions. You have to look to the light of your own being, your own self to know anything. And that's where the gold is.

[animovado]

Posted by Jhonie (here)
What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

Yes, but I'm believing the experiences and deductions that my former self, this animovado-thingie made and call them "knowledge". Isn't there a similarity between "someone else" and the animovado of the past? They're both projections of the mind, aren't they?

So, is my knowledge worth anything, especially in relation to a topic like "enlightenment"?

What comes to my mind regarding the term enlightenment is "weight".
When the "story of my life" is weighing me down and i feel isolated, insecure and like to "get out of here", what can I do about it? There's not much confidence in my knowledge anymore or in any of my beliefs, because they brought me here in the first place.
Can I leave all that behind?

Maybe there's a kind of backup, something of a trustworthy appearance, albeit it is nothing I can get a hold on or even understand what it really is.
Since I'm aware of my personal self in my childhood there's what I would call today "the Presence". It was always with me, it is ageless and seems unaffected, bottomless and as far as "I know or believe", it's the most truthful thing I can share about my life. Every exciting moment in my life, no matter in which field, was mainly just the expression of this presence and it's easy weightless force.

Likewise it seems to support all other "heavyweight-stuff" in my life, too. It's without any preferences.

Is enlightenment an illusion?
"I don't know what to believe!"

But seriously, the more i see my illusions as such and let them disappear, the lighter I feel.
If I'm not willing to see them they're sticking like "disappointment-patches" on my psychic body.

[Finefeather]

Posted by Jhonie (here)

Posted by animovado (here)

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

It's the same as believing in the tooth fairy that your Mom keeps talking about...

and then one day you decided to build up the will to quietly stay awake and that was the day you found out, first hand, that your Mom is actually the tooth fairy.

Belief is subjective... reality is objective.

[Chester]

Posted by Jhonie (here)

Posted by animovado (here)

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

What I found just as dangerous is to apply what I think I know as true to be also true for any other being. I am happy, if I am asked, to make odds on something (shared all and only as an opinion), but anything I think I know which cannot be proved I place in my own self created category I call (my hopes, my desires).

I recall the first satori. Profound... I floated for days "knowing" I was (and these next words are all and only pointers and a phrase I learned from Eckhart Tolle) "the timeless, formless eternal one life." Yet, paradoxically I am Sam, my story... this one life.

I say to myself "I know these two, the paradox" while also suspecting how hard it could be for another to grasp the paradox as BOTH being true.

Tim Freke calls this "paralogical perception" and "paralogical thinking" which stimulates me to consider the possibility of what would be "trilogical perception." So then, "What would that be?" the reader might ask...

Trilogical includes the two above with a third which for me is all and only a hope and desire. That being that an individuated essence of myself continues when the one life story of "Sam" ends. And that perhaps this essence has existed prior. Some might call this the individuated spirit which, via that individuated spirit's experiences, "grow" this thing some call "the soul" (which I define as a spirit's memories, dreams and desires and which combine to make up the current personality of that individuated spirit)... but note, this third "potential of being" is all and only my hope and desire and I cannot "know" it to be a reality and if I find out that it is indeed an aspect of my greater reality I cannot assume this might be true for any other being.

All the above words all and only demonstrate how stark and raving mad... er, I mean "enlightened" that I am.

Note: the OBEs I have experienced have allowed me to raise my odds that this "middle level" of my overall being is possible to be true (again... for me and perhaps not true for any other).

[Rich]

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.

How long has this been going on? And, if it was real wouldn't it be obvious by now to all?

Hi Jhonie, IMHO it is just about being happy, that is what everyone wants.
So those who have found happiness can be said to be "enlightened"
....because God created us happy, beings of pure joy and complete peace.

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all.

Very important point, truth stands by itself.

[East Sun]

I don't think so. We have been added to but only for the benefit
of those in control as usual. We are still slaves in a world of slaves.
I keep saying, we need to wake up.
But how? That is the question.
Lets put our heads together.Wwe need to think clearly
but who can think clearly in this environment?

They, the ptb have set up the whole scene, in advance,
so we are in a prison in our own earth. If we do not
come to realization soon we are literally doomed IMO.

As David Icke warned, if we don't wake up soon we are toast.
But we will because we have to. There 's no other WAY........
Plant a seed in the minds of those who are receptive....

and it will grow.....

[Rich]

East Sun, I would say it's about finding the peace in us. The world is a result/effect not a cause of anything,
so it starts with being at peace and from that point, actions will happen that reflect this understanding.

To me the word enlightenment sounds like something mysterious/mystical and perhaps this can confuse people.
I would say it is just knowing one self to be peace.
Or as Lester Levenson said "being free".
Perhaps the words, peace or freedom are easier to understand than something like enlightenment, because it seems very subjective/blurry.

[waree]

Enlightenment in Hinayana Buddhism is the highest state. When you reach this stage you will not come back to be a human anymore. It's the end of the cycle of born, getting old, hurt and death. It is so difficult that from what I learnt only Buddha himself has reached that stage of enlightenment. Although Mahayana Buddhism said that there are many beings that are enlightened. During the process of meditation, there will be Marn (Satan) that will try to lure you and distract you with fear or sexual pleasure. Along the way you will gain some superpower, but that is just another distraction that will keep your Atta (ego) lives and will stop you from reaching the state of enlightenment.

This is the Hinayana Buddhism that I learnt from growing up in a Buddhist country.

So according to Hinayana Buddhism, it doesn't matter how much you try you won't be enlightened like Buddha. Several hundreds years later, God saw how human trapped in the cycle of born->death->born again.. and feel so bad. So he was born as Jesus and died to give us an easier path to leave this prison planet. But it is only up to us to except it or not.

Is this how the story goes? Who knows?

[Rich]

Read this interesting article by a former avalon member:
https://theconsciousprocess.wordpres...enlightenment/

In the spiritually mature, there is no self being projected that could be enlightened or not. The thought doesn't even arise.

Indeed, that which would gain some sort of spiritual achievement is actually the false sense of independent identity that obstructs any fundamental realization. The notion that enlightenment is going to result from some combination of practices or efforts is purely a human fantasy, and actually an impediment to the recognition of the primordial state which is not an attainment, but ever-present as the shine of reality itself.

[onawah]

That is the essence of Zen.

Posted by Rich (here)
Read this interesting article by a former avalon member:
https://theconsciousprocess.wordpres...enlightenment/

In the spiritually mature, there is no self being projected that could be enlightened or not. The thought doesn't even arise.

Indeed, that which would gain some sort of spiritual achievement is actually the false sense of independent identity that obstructs any fundamental realization. The notion that enlightenment is going to result from some combination of practices or efforts is purely a human fantasy, and actually an impediment to the recognition of the primordial state which is not an attainment, but ever-present as the shine of reality itself.

[TomKat]

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

[Rich]

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What do you believe would be a more worthy pursuit for your life?

[greybeard]

An illusion has some reality but not necessarily what it appears to be.
In a video posted recently on Vedanta / Advaita it was pointed out that this side of the fence (the unenlightened) there are questions with few answers, on the other side there are no questions.
Many enlightened say that its beyond description.
"Form formless both and neither"often quoted.

Too man testimonies for there not to be some truth in the stories of enlightenment.
Eckhart Tolle spoke of a man who was saying I am "That" and full of the buzz words of enlightenment.
Eckhart said yes true, but not in his case. In other words knowing about is not it.
There is a shift where the Self is realized which is why its called Self realization.
Quite different from knowing about it.
You cant claim there is no me no self before enlightenment--though its true.

One of the best bits of advice I read is that Enlightenment is almost an accident --you cant make it happen, but through spiritual practise you can become accident prone.
Again in a video recently posted elsewhere the speaker pointed out that taking up a position that because you know about the Truth you no longer have to meditate etc is a spiritually immature misunderstanding.
Yes you already are That but uncovering this Truth is necessary in most cases--which is why there are the tools of Neity Neity (not this not this) and Self Inquiry

There are paradoxes in spiritual teachings and various schools--however for myself I have found that there are benefits in this world from meditating and spiritual practise---a more peaceful mind.
Enlightenment is inevitable--you might delay it but you cant prevent it.

Chris

[greybeard]

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What makes you think enlightenment is temporary TomKat?
The sages say the Self, as in Self Realization, is the only thing that is permanent.
Chris

[Clear Light]

Posted by Jhonie (here)
In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity

Oh, yes, I'd agree inasmuch as it's what seems to happen, but truthfully all such dissolution (i.e. of the ego-complex, body-mind-identification) is merely a superimposition (or mental imputation) upon that which already and everpresently IS !!!

Indeed, here's a passage attributed to the historical Buddha, indicating, I'd suggest, what so-called "enlightenment" implies :

There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed.

As ever, I'd ask you to please feel free to "take it or leave it" eh ?

[Rich]

Thing is these are all learned concepts, if you had no words, how could you believe in these concepts? Whose concept of enlightenment are you trying to get to?
If the ego makes up a concept of enlightenment and we chase after it, can it be anything but an illusive chase of running after rainbows?

[greybeard]

Posted by Rich (here)
Thing is these are all learned concepts, if you had no words, how could you believe in these concepts? Whose concept of enlightenment are you trying to get to?
If the ego makes up a concept of enlightenment and we chase after it, can it be anything but an illusive chase of running after rainbows?

Yes but!!! smiling.
Nasargadatta, Ramana Maharshi and a host of others are clear that Selfrealization--Enlightenment call it what you will--is the only reality--its not a concept not an idea.
This can be pointed to.
With the use of examination of the statements of mystics I can see a common thread.
I take this (enlightenment) as being not a concept but an eternal fact.
I am That, without as yet the realization of this but taking on thrust the word of "those" who have crossed the river to enlightenment.
I have gone beyond questioning.
Chris