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Thread: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Advaita is VedantaAdvaita Is Vedanta:

    This one of my all time favourites --Chris

    Part I of the Trilogy aims to dissolve or deconstruct, (neti neti) all states, stations and experiences. States of meditation oftentimes become “stuck” points that both “spiritual practitioners”as well as "teachers" unknowingly and habitually nest in. Zen Saying:, (You never want to nest in any state”). The second half on this YouTube focuses and delineates the vibrations "Prior to Consciousness" which both forms and solidifies the illusion of being, through what in Sanskrit is called Samskaras. If you wish to download the Meditation CD, and/or the Corresponding Booklet and Notes from this film to use as a reference or guide, visit www.miragelibrary.com.


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    UK Avalon Member Clear Light's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Oh, I'm posting the following quote here in the "Spiritual Forums" as it may perhaps be of interest to some that are Contemplating what it is that seemingly requires some kind of "Spiritual Integration" in their lives eh ?

    From : Anam Thubten's book "No Self, No Problem / Awakening to Our True Nature"

    Quote CHAPTER ONE: Pure Consciousness / Our True Identity

    WE IDENTIFY with our body made out of flesh, bones, and other components and therefore we believe that we are material, substantial, and concrete. This understanding has become so embedded in our belief system that we rarely question it. The results of that are the inevitable conditions of old age, sickness, and death. We acquire these conditions simply out of believing that we are this physical body. We always pay a high price when we believe in false ideas. This perception is not just held individually; it is held dearly by the collective mind of society and has been for many generations. That is why it is so strongly entrenched in our psyche. Our normal, everyday perception of each other is governed by this false identity and then strengthened and enforced by the language we use.

    At a very early age we are indoctrinated into this notion of self as the body. For example when we see a small child we say, “He is beautiful. I love his hair. She has the cutest eyes.” Through thoughts and comments such as these we are planting the seeds of this mistaken identity. Of course there is nothing wrong with giving compliments. It is much better than criticism. However, it is still a form of misconception. The truth is that, independent of any characteristics, a child is inherently beautiful the moment she is born. So we are all beautiful.

    We are living in an age when people are disconnected from their true identity and this false perception is validated from every angle. Everyone is craving a perfect body and seeking it in others. For example, when you go to the grocery store you see magazines displaying pictures of men and women in a perfect and idealized youthful form. It is very difficult to resist these messages. They come from everywhere, all aspects of society, and they validate this sense of mistaken identity. They validate the sense that this body is who we really are. Given the tendency to establish a perfect idealized standard, many people suffer from pride, narcissism, arrogance, shame, guilt, and self-hatred because of their relationship with their body and their ability or inability to reflect this perfect standard.

    Every morning when we wake up and look into the mirror there is a voice in our mind that is constantly judging us and others according to this standard. Have you ever noticed that? Our mind is always judging: “Oh, another wrinkle. She is too fat. He is strange looking. She is beautiful. He is handsome.” These judgments not only create a stumbling block on our spiritual path, they also create clouds of negativity in our consciousness and keep us firmly chained in the prison of duality.

    But there is no need to hold on to this. There is the possibility of transcending this identification with our body in each and every moment. It is only when we drop all of these judgments that we will recognize that everyone is divine in their uniqueness. Egoic mind is always comparing self with others because it believes itself to be a separate entity and it uses the body as the dividing line between self and others.

    We are nonmaterial. We are insubstantial. We are not like a table that eventually breaks down. The very essence of who we are goes beyond the conditions of decay and impermanence. Yes, our body is impermanent but our true nature is not impermanent. Our true nature is deathless and divine, transcending all imperfections. Because of this we are all equal, we are all one. Nobody is better or worse than anybody else. When someone manifests their true nature, they live out of love, kindness, and joy. They inflict less pain on others. When we meditate, sooner or later we discover that this is not just abstract theory. This corresponds to the truth, to reality.

    What is our true nature if it is not this body? There are many words we can use to describe what our true nature is. The simplest word in Buddhism for that is Buddha Nature. The definition of Buddha Nature is that we are already enlightened. We are perfect as we are. When we realize this, we are perfect. When we do not realize this, we are also perfect. Our true essence goes beyond birth and death. It can never get sick. It can never get old. It is beyond all conditions. It is like the sky. This is not a theory. This is the truth that can be realized only in the realm of enlightened consciousness. This consciousness is surprisingly accessible to each of us.

    When that awakening happens, there is no longer any desire to become someone other than who we are. Every previous idea of who we are vanishes and along with it the pain, guilt, and pride associated with our body. In Buddhism this is called no self. This is the only true awakening. Everything else is a spiritual bypass. This awakening is what we should be aiming for from the very beginning of being on the path. It will rescue us from falling into unnecessary spiritual traps.

    When we are openhearted and ready to drop our previous perceptions of self, then spiritual awakening can happen at any moment. There is a beautiful analogy. Imagine a dark cave that hasn’t been illuminated for a million years. Then one day someone brings a candle into the cave. Instantaneously the darkness of a million years vanishes. Like that, when your true nature is realized there is no longer this “I” searching for anything else. The awakening has nothing to do with our background. It has nothing to do with whether we have been meditating for a long time or not. It has nothing to do with meeting impressive teachers or gurus. It is simply dependent on whether or not we are open to it.

    This opening, this receptivity, is basically related to our ability to resist arming the ego with concepts and ideas. A true spiritual path transcends all concepts and belief systems. It is not about reinforcing the mind’s illusion of self as an identity. It is not about being a Buddhist, a saint, or a better person. It is really about deconstructing all of our illusions without any mercy.

    It is very important to look into our mind to see what we are looking for, what we are seeking. This is especially relevant when we are going to receive spiritual teachings. When a spiritual teacher impresses us, we might discover that our desire is completely antagonistic to authentic awakening. Perhaps our mind is looking for comfort, for validation, for a spiritual high, or a new set of beliefs. Sometimes our ego convinces us that we are realizing this sense of no fixed self but at the same time we are holding on to another concept like trying to be sacred or spiritual. Holding on to concepts such as “sacred” or “spiritual” while we are working toward transcending self-attachment is very subtle.

    Perhaps this sounds like a lot of work, like an arduous insurmountable task. It isn’t when we find the secret ingredient. That is to know that this “I” is a fictitious entity that is always ready to wither away the moment we stop sustaining it. We don’t have to go to a holy place to experience this. All we have to do is simply sit and pay attention to our breath, allowing ourselves to let go of all of our fantasies and mental images. Then we can experience connecting to our inner world.

    As we begin to rest and pay attention, we begin to see everything clearly. We see that the self has no basis or solidity. It is a complete mental fabrication. We also realize that everything we believe to be true about our life is nothing but stories, fabricated around false identifications. “I am an American. I am thirty years old. I am a teacher, a taxi driver, a lawyer . . . whatever.” All of these ideas or identities are stories that have never really happened in the realm of our true nature. Watching the dissolution of these individual stories is not painful. It is not painful to see everything dissolving in front of us. It is not like watching our house burn down. That is very painful because we don’t want to lose everything. Spiritual dissolution is not like that because what is being destroyed is nothing but this sense of false identities. They were never real in the first place.

    Try this. Pay attention to your breath in silence. Look at your mind. Immediately we see that thoughts are popping up. Don’t react to them. Just keep watching your mind. Notice that there is a gap between each thought. Notice that there is a space between the place where the last thought came to an end and the next one hasn’t arrived yet. In this space there is no “I” or “me.” That’s it.

    It might be hard to believe how simple it is to realize the truth. As a matter of fact the Tibetan lama Ju Mipham said that the only reason we don’t realize the truth is because it is too simple. If we look around carefully there are hundreds, even thousands, of indications proving the notion that our concept of self is unreal. Look at the face of a newborn child or a flower blossoming beautifully in a garden. They are all pointing toward this mystical realization. We might want to apply this simple inquiry whenever problems arise. If we feel angry or disappointed, simply ask, “Who is the one being angry or disappointed?” In such inquiry, inner serenity can effortlessly manifest.

    There are stories about people who have been struggling with life’s problems for a very long time without resolution. Once they sat down in meditation and asked, “Who is struggling?” they realized that from the beginning there was never really any problem. In a true sense this is the only solution that helps us. Everything else is just a Band-Aid that gives us a false sense of liberation for a short while. How many times have we tried these temporary fixes and solutions? Are we exhausted yet? If everybody on the planet, including the politicians, businessmen, and religious leaders, started working toward this realization, then the world would immediately be a peaceful place. People would be much more generous and kinder toward each other.

    When all the layers of false identity have been stripped off, there is no longer any version of that old self. What is left behind is pure consciousness. That is our original being. That is our true identity. Our true nature is indestructible. No matter whether we are sick or healthy, poor or wealthy, it always remains divine and perfect as it is. When we realize our true nature, our life is transformed in a way we could not have imagined before. We realize the very meaning of our life and it puts an end to all searching right there.

    Many people are looking for the perfect life in the distant future while they’re busy wasting each moment of their precious life fabricating mental and psychological problems. We should remember that each moment is a threshold to perfect awakening. Awakening to our true nature is the key to unlocking the door of the paradise that lies within each of us. Paradise is not some kind of enchanted land filled with flowers and music. It is not some kind of spiritual Disneyland. Paradise is our primordial pure consciousness, which is free of all limitations but embodies the infinity of the divine. I remember seeing a bumper sticker that said, “I believe in life before death.” To me this means that we don’t have to imagine a future paradise. Paradise can happen right here, right now, while we’re in this human incarnation. The choice is ours.
    Yes, it's from a Buddhist / Dzogchen POV but I'd suggest that IF "you" really want to put an end to "suffering" once and for all then why not, at least give it a read through eh ?

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Stephen Wolinsky - Nisargadatta's home

    Nisargadatta Maharaj (17 April 1897 – 8 September 1981), born Maruti Shivrampant Kambli, was an Indian Guru of nondualism, belonging to the Inchagiri Sampradaya, a lineage of teachers from the Navnath Sampradaya and Lingayat Shaivism.

    The publication in 1973 of I Am That, an English translation of his talks in Marathi by Maurice Frydman, brought him worldwide recognition and followers, especially from North America and Europe.

    Stephen H. Wolinsky, PhD. was born in New York City.
    He is a direct disciple of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and lived in India for almost six years.
    He is a founder of Quantum Psychology, (integrating Western Psychology, Advaita-Vedanta’s Non-duality, Quantum Physics, Neuro-Science, and Buddhism).
    In 2002, he founded Post-deconstruction, a scientific approach beyond Postmodernism.
    He is the author of fourteen books, including an audio tape series Waking From The Trance: A Practical Course on Developing Mulidimensional Awareness (produced by Sounds True) and a DVD series, I Am That I Am (produced by Neti Neti films). He presently resides in Aptos, California.



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    Denmark Honored, Retired Member. Uffe passed on 12 February 2024.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Buddah was asked: What have you gained from meditation ?

    He answered :Nothing

    "However" Buddah said. Let me tell you what I have lost.

    Anger, anxiety, depression, insecurity, Fear of Old Age, and Death.

    H2h

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by Heart2hearth (here)
    Buddah was asked: What have you gained from meditation ?

    He answered :Nothing

    "However" Buddah said. Let me tell you what I have lost.

    Anger, anxiety, depression, insecurity, Fear of Old Age, and Death.

    H2h
    Good to see you posting
    Much love Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    I would strongly recommend reading the book on the link if you want to change this world of appearances for the better.
    I had to read it several times before I could accept that this is possible.
    In God I trust
    Chris

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1300538
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    There is no conflict in you, the Self.
    If there is conflict,
    it is between thought and thought.
    As long as the sense of 'I' and 'other' is believed,
    conflict is inevitable.
    Through self-inquiry confirm
    again and again: I am the Self,
    the complete and indivisible whole.

    ~ Mooji
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    There seems to be two (you know, the duality dance) of enlightenment

    1) enlightenment
    2) enlightenment, but not really.

    Restated

    1) enlightenment
    2) what enlightenment?

    or

    1) enlightenment
    2) relative enlightenment


    "but not really" is what trips up the rational part of the brain and counts it as '1 of 2 (or more)'

    I should have started this post with "Sharing 'thoughts' that past by my window".

    That last part past by my window as well. Talk about Meta-Sharing! :grin:

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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Hi Chris, i always hear a lot o people talky talkin about being "awakened", and now "woke", but i dont seem to notice a bunch of bodhisattvas running around. Strange that... do you think the tenets of buddhism are being cheapened and commercialized?

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Hi Chris, i always hear a lot o people talky talkin about being "awakened", and now "woke", but i dont seem to notice a bunch of bodhisattvas running around. Strange that... do you think the tenets of buddhism are being cheapened and commercialized?
    Good question Gracy May
    Yes maybe changed to user friendly might be kinder laughing.
    The majority of videos on this thread, I would say, are genuine Non-duality.
    I do believe there is an awakening happening but there are degrees of this.
    Not that many fully enlightened yet.
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Hi Chris, i always hear a lot o people talky talkin about being "awakened", and now "woke", but i dont seem to notice a bunch of bodhisattvas running around. Strange that... do you think the tenets of buddhism are being cheapened and commercialized?
    Hi Gracy May,

    Cheapened and commercialised is one way of talking about it, however there is a more extreme side.

    As Tibetan Buddhism was witnessing it's slow demise after the chinese invasion of 1950, it has had to face movement outwards, first to India and then to the west to try and preserve the teachings and this has exposed many rinpochets and 'western would be rinpochets' to extreme scrutiny of their methods with devastating results. Both financial and sexual scandals have occurred in many instances as Gurus and teachers abused their students and corrupted the teachings. They could hardly have got away with it anywhere near to that degree in their homeland but experienced a new kind of freedom with all the temptations the west has to offer. A dilution of the teachings it seems was inevitable.

    It seems that in one sense this was an acid test for tibetan buddhism as to what extent it had been culturally manufactured and consequently conditioned as lamaism as distinct from buddhism.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Peter UK
    Thanks for your post which I agree with.
    My first look into spirituality was with Yogananda's book "Autobiography of a Yogi"
    That led on to Ramana--at that time there was no u tube and litte non-duality to be foun

    However whilst im not a Buddhist I appreciate the little I know of his teaching.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Avalon Member Peter UK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Peter UK
    Thanks for your post which I agree with.
    My first look into spirituality was with Yogananda's book "Autobiography of a Yogi"
    That led on to Ramana--at that time there was no u tube and litte non-duality to be foun

    However whilst im not a Buddhist I appreciate the little I know of his teaching.

    Chris
    Hi Chris,

    Yes, Yogananda's book is something of a classic.

    No youtube meant a completely different approach, often entailing going to India.



    I'm not a buddhist either but appreciate many aspects of it.
    Last edited by Peter UK; 16th July 2019 at 13:10. Reason: punctuation

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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by Peter UK (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Peter UK
    Thanks for your post which I agree with.
    My first look into spirituality was with Yogananda's book "Autobiography of a Yogi"
    That led on to Ramana--at that time there was no u tube and litte non-duality to be foun

    However whilst im not a Buddhist I appreciate the little I know of his teaching.

    Chris
    Hi Chris,

    Yes, Yoganandas book is something of a classic.

    No youtube meant a completely different approach, often entailing going to India.



    I'm not a buddhist either but appreciate many aspects of it.
    Ive been fortunate to go to India three times.
    The apprenticeship somewhat demanding but I suppose getting information in the energy of satsang particularly in India was well forth the sacrifices involve in getting there.
    Yet knowing about it is good but not it
    All posts welcome.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Let me try putting it this way. Let's take one of our favrites "awake and aware" for instance. What exactly does that mean? Is is just a stark difference between either you're asleep and aware of zip zero zilch, or you're awake and aware to every lil nuance of existence, or, are there varying degrees of "woke" in between?

    I know the old zen koans always seem to lead toward one understanding it all in some sudden flash of enlightenment but, is that really practical?

    Thats basically what i see in every day life, someone has some new political, or spiritual revelation, and suddenly they consider themselves "awakened". To me the road road traveled ends right there when one foolishly assume such a thing.

    By the way greybeard thank you for this thread!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Let me try putting it this way. Let's take one of our favrites "awake and aware" for instance. What exactly does that mean? Is is just a stark difference between either you're asleep and aware of zip zero zilch, or you're awake and aware to every lil nuance of existence, or, are there varying degrees of "woke" in between?
    I would tend towards the view of varying degrees and see enlightenment as an ever expanding vista, no matter how enlightened one is.

    There are some who owing to the nature of their enlightenment would not necessarily have any future purpose taking on another physical body however I do wonder what the vista is or would appear like, as i'm sure it must.

    Think of a russian doll.


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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Let me try putting it this way. Let's take one of our favrites "awake and aware" for instance. What exactly does that mean? Is is just a stark difference between either you're asleep and aware of zip zero zilch, or you're awake and aware to every lil nuance of existence, or, are there varying degrees of "woke" in between?

    I know the old zen koans always seem to lead toward one understanding it all in some sudden flash of enlightenment but, is that really practical?

    Thats basically what i see in every day life, someone has some new political, or spiritual revelation, and suddenly they consider themselves "awakened". To me the road road traveled ends right there when one foolishly assume such a thing.

    By the way greybeard thank you for this thread!
    Both instant and leading towards the enlightenment happen as far as can see.
    Seemingly its possible to have the enlightenment"experience" but its temporary.

    I think enlightenment can be complete but then matures.
    I followed the teaching of the late Dr avid Hawkins for years--he maintained that there ar level of enlightenment the highest possible in this world, being Christ or the Buddha.
    The human body can only stand so much spiritual energy.
    So Hawkins and Tolle said that to higher Ones Enlightenment here would seem like kindergarten.
    However a very worthwhile undertaking as its the only way to escape the wheel of reincarnation.

    Thanks for your appreciation of the thread.
    Honestly its not down to me.
    Chris

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    I regularly point to this thread.
    Love Chris
    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...of-what-occurs...

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    || Realization || by Swami Sarvapriyananda

    The Swami tells it with so much humour.
    He talks of the various heavens but once our merit is used up we come back here.
    These heavens are not formless--they are similar to this world though better--but like this world our time there comes to an end.
    However there is a highest spiritual heaven that is formless.

    Well worth listening to.
    Chris





    ABOUT VEDANTA
    Vedanta is one of the world’s most ancient religious philosophies and one of its broadest. Based on the Vedas, the sacred scriptures of India, Vedanta affirms the oneness of existence, the divinity of the soul, and the harmony of religions.

    ABOUT US
    Vedanta Society of New York is affiliated with the Ramakrishna Order of India. In fact, this is the Order's first Center started by Swami Vivekananda, in 1894. It was a historic event, for the seed of the world-wide Ramakrishna Movement was sown here in New York over a century ago. Swami Sarvapriyananda is the present Resident Minister and Spiritual Leader of the Vedanta Society of New York.
    This one answers a lot.
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Avalon Member Peter UK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Take three or four people who you consider to be enlightened, either in the very recent past or presently, where their teaching styles may be witnessed and compared. What accounts for their difference? This may be more easily understood and reconciled if they are from different teachings but how is that difference accounted for when they teach from virtually the same teaching?

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by Peter UK (here)
    Take three or four people who you consider to be enlightened, either in the very recent past or presently, where their teaching styles may be witnessed and compared. What accounts for their difference? This may be more easily understood and reconciled if they are from different teachings but how is that difference accounted for when they teach from virtually the same teaching?
    That is a very difficult question--who am I to say!!!
    I would rather point to those teachings that have been the most help.
    Ramana Maharshi
    Eckhart Tolle
    Dr David Hawkins
    Ramesh Balsakar
    Nasargadatta Maharagh
    Mooji
    Stephen Wolinsky
    The Swami in the recent post.

    Thats in the order of finding--more than you asked for but I have been at this forever.

    They all teach non-duality---
    Just different "personalities" ways of delivering the same message.
    Which is your "That"
    "That thou art"
    Only God/Brahman exists.
    They can all be found on this thread some where.

    Hope that helps Peter UK

    Chris

    Oh and the late Dr Goels--the Kundalini Guru who was tremendous help on his ashram


    Apart from that Shadowman who has been of personal help--the link above.
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Avalon Member Peter UK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Quote Posted by Peter UK (here)
    Take three or four people who you consider to be enlightened, either in the very recent past or presently, where their teaching styles may be witnessed and compared. What accounts for their difference? This may be more easily understood and reconciled if they are from different teachings but how is that difference accounted for when they teach from virtually the same teaching?
    That is a very difficult question--who am I to say!!!
    I would rather point to those teachings that have been the most help.
    Ramana Maharshi
    Eckhart Tolle
    Dr David Hawkins
    Ramesh Balsakar
    Nasargadatta Maharagh
    Mooji
    Stephen Wolinsky
    The Swami in the recent post.

    Thats in the order of finding--more than you asked for but I have been at this forever.

    They all teach non-duality---
    Just different "personalities" ways of delivering the same message.
    Which is your "That"
    "That thou art"
    Only God/Brahman exists.
    They can all be found on this thread some where.

    Hope that helps Peter UK

    Chris

    Oh and the late Dr Goels--the Kundalini Guru who was tremendous help on his ashram


    Apart from that Shadowman who has been of personal help--the link above.

    Ok, that's an interesting response as it leads the question on.

    Here's the conundrum;

    Just what is a 'personality'?

    I think we both agree were not talking about an ego here, so what is it that's being referenced when we say personality?

    You have given good examples of individuals that are worthy of being considered to be enlightened in the context that we would normally consider that; Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta, Mooji and yet not one of these teach in the same way albeit they teach from the same source. I find that interesting when considering what enlightenment is because at that level it's about the oneness but it manifests differently.

    Is the personality filtering the differences? What are the mechanics of that?

    Is it the result of being in a physical body with different genetic qualities?

    These questions are mainly rhetorical and not of utmost importance however they imply for me what I feel is the same mechanics at source, namely that there will exist a similar mutability or flexibility in how it will reflect itself as it senses its relationship to the greater 'wholes' out there of which it is simultaneously a part and totally inclusive of.

    I think that we probably can only understand and experience source from a relative position at any given point in time and space and even from outside of space-time. The experience will be different of course depending on where we find ourselves. Outside of space-time the notion of relative would take on a quite different meaning. None of this is related to scientific conjecture only my own philosophical musings.

    Last edited by Peter UK; 16th July 2019 at 17:14. Reason: punctuation

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