Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

[greybeard]

Yes Peter UK
I think you have answered yourself.
The only thing I can add is --it depends to whom the teacher is speaking to.

For example I would say that Eckhart Tolle is user friendly he meets people who are early on in their spiritual development--he helps them with the challenges of life and thats good.
Now and then he drops in deep truth with statements like " There never was anyone there to do anything to you?
Ramana would always say "Find out who is asking that question"
Ramesh--"You are not the doer"
Nasargadatta not for the faint hearted.
Mooji full of love and advocates just be.
The swami explains in great depth the process of revealing the Truth though
Basically the process of elimination Neity Neity
I tend to go to the Indian teachers because they are grounded in ancient Sanskrit teaching.

So "God" leads you to the teacher best suited to your needs--one that you will resonate with

Chris

[Gracy]

Posted by Peter UK (here)
Take three or four people who you consider to be enlightened, either in the very recent past or presently, where their teaching styles may be witnessed and compared. What accounts for their difference? This may be more easily understood and reconciled if they are from different teachings but how is that difference accounted for when they teach from virtually the same teaching?

I'vecome across the rare person here and there who strike me as well on their way on the path, but, never a person I would consider enlightened. To your question though, I might chalk many said diferences up to more than one way to make a dog bark.

Hey Chris, its probably in here somewhere, what would you say, or point to, as the definition of enlightened?

[greybeard]

Posted by Gracy May (here)

Posted by Peter UK (here)
Take three or four people who you consider to be enlightened, either in the very recent past or presently, where their teaching styles may be witnessed and compared. What accounts for their difference? This may be more easily understood and reconciled if they are from different teachings but how is that difference accounted for when they teach from virtually the same teaching?

I'vecome across the rare person here and there who strike me as well on their way on the path, but, never a person I would consider enlightened. To your question though, I might chalk many said diferences up to more than one way to make a dog bark.

Hey Chris, its probably in here somewhere, what would you say, or point to, as the definition of enlightened?

Its an egoless"state" Gracy May but the ones who are say its beyond any concept or description--if you think you have defined it--Nasargaatta was famous for asking people to tell him about their beliefs--no matter what they said he would say "Thats not it"
How can you describe "Form--formless--both and yet neither.

Easier to define ego.
Dr Hawkins define it as belief in the story of me.
He also said Sainthood and enlightenment are two different paths
Ramesh said its a separation device.

Seperation--the seperate person is the illusion.
Enlightenment is the removal of this ignorance.

There is no one left to claim enlightenment.
Neither are there separate objects--all of the same energy

The wave comes back into the ocean it always was water.
Not easy to give a clear answer

Shadowman gives one of the clearest definitions in his first post on Avalon--in the spiritual section--think I posted the link recently.

Chris

[Gracy]

Posted by Gracy May (here)
Hey Chris, its probably in here somewhere, what would you say, or point to, as the definition of enlightened?

Posted by greybeard (here)
Its an egoless"state" Gracy May but the ones who are say its beyond any concept or description--if you think you have defined it--Nasargaatta was famous for asking people to tell him about their beliefs--no matter what they said he would say "Thats not it"
How can you describe "Form--formless--both and yet neither.

Yes, that would be hard to describe.

I love Buddhism, but at the same time certain aspects of it bother me a bit. Like when i see all the time people are desperate to hop off the reincarnation wheel, thus imo assuring many happy returns through the bardos. So also, it bothers me some to see our existance here described as ignorance. Like the following.

Seperation--the seperate person is the illusion.
Enlightenment is the removal of this ignorance.

I reckon what bothers me, is, is this ignorance a bad thing? Put maybe a better way, whats the point of us being here in this ignorant state in the first place? Is there a method to this madness in your humble opinion dear sir?

[Clear Light]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=3vv0363gLr8

[greybeard]

Posted by Gracy May (here)

Posted by Gracy May (here)
Hey Chris, its probably in here somewhere, what would you say, or point to, as the definition of enlightened?

Posted by greybeard (here)
Its an egoless"state" Gracy May but the ones who are say its beyond any concept or description--if you think you have defined it--Nasargaatta was famous for asking people to tell him about their beliefs--no matter what they said he would say "Thats not it"
How can you describe "Form--formless--both and yet neither.

Yes, that would be hard to describe.

I love Buddhism, but at the same time certain aspects of it bother me a bit. Like when i see all the time people are desperate to hop off the reincarnation wheel, thus imo assuring many happy returns through the bardos. So also, it bothers me some to see our existance here described as ignorance. Like the following.

Seperation--the seperate person is the illusion.
Enlightenment is the removal of this ignorance.

I reckon what bothers me, is, is this ignorance a bad thing? Put maybe a better way, whats the point of us being here in this ignorant state in the first place? Is there a method to this madness in your humble opinion dear sir?

Ignorance is just lack of knowledge
Self Realization another term for enlightenment/
This happens when the truth is realize--you are not the body not the mind --then what are you?
So the eternal soul is here in disguise.
Buddha saw enlightenment as freedom from misery.
Life goes on after the last visit here.
This is just the play of consciousness we are all actors on the stage.
Any explanation is flawed not it.
Clear Light has a better grasp of it than I
Chris
Oh and I forgot to ad Alan Watts to the list.

[Gracy]

Hi Chris

Sorry if it seems like i'm bugging you about these things, thats not my intent. i've studied buddhism, and listened to people like Alan Watts for many years but, there's not a whole lot of folk around to talk and philosophise about these things, so here i am. Round these parts we call it shooting the s**t, and some times something may actually come of it.

Yes, so self realization is another term for enlightenment, and as you say when we realize we are not the body and not the mind then what are we, is a dern good question! If the eternal soul is here in disguise, what do you think would be the purpose of that? To purposely dip itself into misery.

So Buddha saw enlightenment as freedom from misery. Yes, that sounds good. But again, do you think we were already an all knowing oversoul sort of collective being, all happy and all knowing until one "day" we up and decided we were bored and ready for a challenge, or a game, like Alan Watts may laughingly quip?

Like here, lets play a game, let's play hide n seek, lets lose ourselves to the 4 wind, and see how long it takes to get back home. Last one home's a rotten egg LOL!

[greybeard]

Gracy May
I love your input there is not enough of it on this thread.
Why are we here --damned if I know.
I was a breech birth --maybe I change my mind at the last moment --smiling
If we take it that there are different levels of energy called consciousness it becomes easier to understand.
Dr DavidHawkins compare it to a thermometer--extreme heat all the may down to lack of heat.
Unconditional Divine Love all the way down to the absence of love.
His book "Power vs Force" a good read.
So until enlightenment occurs we are in the play--even in the heavens we are in the play till enlightenment happens--anything not permanent is not it--this is why those who have NDE come back--still work in progress and to encourage us--remove fear.
So enlightenment is graduation out of this particular school--the one of hard knocks.
We continue on elsewhere always of the same energy as the Creator but a lesser voltage so to speak.
God became all without diminishing itself--one way of looking at it.
Why--I dont know

Its beyond understanding

The different levels of awareness have different truths which are relative to where one is.
A Saints awareness of right and wrong quite different from a criminal who can justify what he does.
The Enlightened do not judge but dont condone either.

Rambling but hope it helps
Chris

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Gracy May (here)
Yes, so self realization is another term for enlightenment, and as you say when we realize we are not the body and not the mind then what are we, is a dern good question! If the eternal soul is here in disguise, what do you think would be the purpose of that? To purposely dip itself into misery.

Not to answer for Chris at all, just chipping in for what it's worth.

The body is merely the physical vehicle that clads our consciousness. The consciousness (or personality) is the vehicle that clads our soul. The soul is the vehicle that clads, I suppose, God. We are none of these things individually, but everything simultaneously.

The purpose here on Earth is to experience separation and polarity/free will. (Misery is less a condition of that polarity and more a collective choice.) Not all planetary 'schools of learning' are as dense and dark as this. Not all entities have this Polarity. On Earth at least it's quite unique to us as Human Beings. A pig or a chicken or an antelope doesn't have free will. They do not and cannot express malice, or altruism, or love/hate. That's for us alone to understand and experience, to ultimately work through and transcend.

Posted by Gracy May (here)
do you think we were already an all knowing oversoul sort of collective being, all happy and all knowing until one "day" we up and decided we were bored and ready for a challenge, or a game, like Alan Watts may laughingly quip?

Personally no, not entirely. We are not Source - the ultimate Oneness and perfection, we merely came from Source as individualised particles of energy. As souls. Then again, being of the Source we are Source, so we were already perfect. I suppose the distinction here is that, in Humanity's very long history, we became enamoured with our free will, and with physicality and the infinite pleasures and distractions it provides, and lost something of that vital connection to the ALL. We forgot ourselves and humanity fell. Hence the confusion and misery and this illusion of separation we all experience.

Enlightenment is just the path back to our true selves. There are many obstacles and a lot of debris on the way back up that path, which we ourselves put there on our way down. That's Karma. We have to clear the way first.

But even enlightenment isn't the end. Enlightenment is just 'knowledge', and knowledge is energy. Energy cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed. Therefore in my opinion, the human word 'enlightenment', and what it means is just a circle. It does not really begin, and it does not really end.

[greybeard]

Thank you for your post input Star Mariner--much appreciated.
Chris

[greybeard]

Id like to say that Im not an expert on the subject --heaven forbid.
Every post is equal as is every poster.
How else would anyone learn?
So keep the questions and answers coming.

Chris

[Peter UK]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)

Posted by Gracy May (here)
Yes, so self realization is another term for enlightenment, and as you say when we realize we are not the body and not the mind then what are we, is a dern good question! If the eternal soul is here in disguise, what do you think would be the purpose of that? To purposely dip itself into misery.

Not to answer for Chris at all, just chipping in for what it's worth.


The purpose here on Earth is to experience separation and polarity/free will. (Misery is less a condition of that polarity and more a collective choice.) Not all planetary 'schools of learning' are as dense and dark as this. Not all entities have this Polarity. On Earth at least it's quite unique to us as Human Beings.

An excellent interpretation.

I agree with the whole thing about needing to experience apparent separation as part of the illusion, it's the experience of Source experiencing itself as an apparent object, focussed one might say in a highly concentrated manner in order to know itself from that angle.

Posted by Star Mariner

Posted by Gracy May (here)
do you think we were already an all knowing oversoul sort of collective being, all happy and all knowing until one "day" we up and decided we were bored and ready for a challenge, or a game, like Alan Watts may laughingly quip?

Personally no, not entirely. We are not Source - the ultimate Oneness and perfection, we merely came from Source as individualised particles of energy. As souls. Then again, being of the Source we are Source, so we were already perfect.

But even enlightenment isn't the end. Enlightenment is just 'knowledge', and knowledge is energy. Energy cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed. Therefore in my opinion, the human word 'enlightenment', and what it means is just a circle. It does not really begin, and it does not really end.

Agreed again, the only distinction I would make here is that I would consider enlightenment to be knowledge at one end of the spectrum and awareness at the other.

A semantical difference perhaps.

[Gracy]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Id like to say that Im not an expert on the subject --heaven forbid.
Every post is equal as is every poster.
How else would anyone learn?
So keep the questions and answers coming.

Chris

Chris, if you considered yourself an expert on these matters, i probably wouldn't be here striking up a talky talk with you.more later when i have time. Good stuff.

[Peter UK]

Posted by Gracy May (here)
Hi Chris

Sorry if it seems like i'm bugging you about these things, thats not my intent. i've studied buddhism, and listened to people like Alan Watts for many years but, there's not a whole lot of folk around to talk and philosophise about these things, so here i am. Round these parts we call it shooting the s**t, and some times something may actually come of it.

That's a great expression Gracy May.

Pray tell me more about it.

[greybeard]

Seen we are having fun
A definition of exspurt I really like
A has been drip under pressure.

Chris

[Wind]

Whatever it is that is still commenting about things,
forget that. Become completely empty and silent
and remain as silent emptiness itself.

~ Mooji

[Gracy]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)
We are not Source - the ultimate Oneness and perfection, we merely came from Source as individualised particles of energy. As souls. Then again, being of the Source we are Source, so we were already perfect. I suppose the distinction here is that, in Humanity's very long history, we became enamoured with our free will, and with physicality and the infinite pleasures and distractions it provides, and lost something of that vital connection to the ALL. We forgot ourselves and humanity fell. Hence the confusion and misery and this illusion of separation we all experience.

It seems to me, that Source would have known from the very get go that "man" would eventually succumb to this and fall so to speak. At least it didnt get pissed like Jehova.

Your description even reminds me a bit of the realm of the gods.

Posted by Star Mariner (here)
But even enlightenment isn't the end. Enlightenment is just 'knowledge', and knowledge is energy. Energy cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed. Therefore in my opinion, the human word 'enlightenment', and what it means is just a circle. It does not really begin, and it does not really end.

You don't think there may be an end game to this, at least to this chapter, like the prodigal son returning home all grown up and bursting with hard won wisdom having finally passed the test?

[O Donna]

Posted by Wind (here)
Whatever it is that is still commenting about things,
forget that. Become completely empty and silent
and remain as silent emptiness itself.

~ Mooji

It's ironical regarding the Mooji comment about "Whatever is still commenting..." to convey the message itself. Such is the life of manifestation.
It's like getting the cake and having to eat it too bringing both pleasure and pain, light and dark.

[greybeard]

"That which brings you pleasure brings you pain"
such is duality.

[O Donna]

Pleasure and pain, before differentiation/ interpretation, are one.

Described in mythology/ mysticism as the/ a forbidden fruit.