Is War Ever Necessary or Justified?

[rgray222]

I have spent a great deal of my adult life considering the question....... is war ever justified? I have been all over the map coming up with an answer. Of course, these are my thoughts on war, you may arrive at a completely different answer. Originally I thought war might be justifiable under some circumstances. The just war theory claims that there is a doctrine that morally justifies war through a series of criteria broken into two parts, the right to go to war and the right to conduct war. The just war theory presupposes the belief that war, while it is terrible but less so with the right conduct, is not always the worst option.

Each year I pulled back from my hawkish position ever so slightly to the point of believing war is never justified under any circumstances. Eventually, I began to see that war was being justified exactly the same way slavery was justified in the 17th and 18th centuries. I also see that the learning/evolution of mankind had reached a point where slavery had to be criminalized, outlawed and vanquished from society, ironically it took the bloodiest conflict in American history to remove slavery from society.

I now believe that war is nothing more than murder and property destruction on a grand scale, even when a country(s) declares war and it is somehow sanctioned by uninvolved countries and society at large it is still murder. He who fires the first shot should suffer severe economic penalties, sanctions and loss of standing. There must be consequences.

Here are a few questions and things to think about.

Many people believe that the world cannot exist without war, just as death is a meaningless concept without life. This same school of thought believes that peace will never exist without war. Is that true, is war always going to be justified in some manner?

Will we have to go through a WWIII nuclear holocaust with loss of life in the billions before we learn/evolve enough to never have another war? During slavery, people were not only willing to justify slavery but they were also willing to die for slavery. in today's world, that seems incomprehensible but we are not living in those times. Will we ever live in a world where those that call for war are ostracized just like it would be if people called out for slavery today.

Is war so entrenched in the human psyche that it will be impossible to end?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

[onawah]

How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

[rgray222]

Posted by onawah (here)
How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

There is a lot to unpack and think about. What should be done when a world leader starts committing genocide against his own people? Should we just let ethnic cleansing happen or should the countries of the world unite and send in troops to prevent further loss of life and destruction of property? There are many real-life scenarios where war appears to be justified.

[Chester]

Necessary? Yes... there have been multiple instances it was necessary. When a civilization is threatened where "to wage war" or be subjugated are the only options, then war may become necessary... at least to the threatened civilization.

Justified?

That, for me, is unanswerable except by the sovereign (individual or body) that has the power to go to war and makes the decision to do so. And they will be held responsible for it.

Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.

The trouble with the current Earth story is that few have any clue of the actual, full story and the actual history that got us here. Out of the few I have found open minded enough to consider some (much less most) of the true history push back because their own versions are too entrenched into their very being. Their whole personalty is wrapped in in their mistaken versions that have to be true. They are too dug in with everyone they know in relation to what they believe in regard to the true history and the true actors involved in the current Earth dramas.

Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.

And I find this very disheartening.

But back to the thread question - Yes, war is (sometimes) necessary. And the one's who wage it have obviously justified it and are responsible for the outcomes.

[Chester]

Posted by rgray222 (here)

Posted by onawah (here)
How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

There is a lot to unpack and think about. What should be done when a world leader starts committing genocide against his own people? Should we just let ethnic cleansing happen or should the countries of the world unite and send in troops to prevent further loss of life and destruction of property? There are many real-life scenarios where war appears to be justified.

This is why, one day, there will be a single global government. This will either happen because the nations of the world recognize it is a must or a single civilization becomes the final global hegemon. But it will happen unless we destroy ourselves first or we are taken out.

[onawah]

There seems to be a contradiction in your reasonsing here.

Posted by Chester (here)
Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.
Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.
And I find this very disheartening.

[TargeT]

The military has an interesting "roundabout" way of answering this.. well I think most "force" based groups do...

we have ROE (rules of engagement), the basis of which usually boils down to matching the situation with the appropriate response. Police show up to protests with (questionable definition currently IMO) "less than lethal rounds" because of the (unti a few years ago) general lack of lethal force present at those gatherings...

Tribalism has had versions of this, mostly based on resources; the less you have (and I mean this in a long term societal sense) the more violently you react to intruders (unknown entities etc..); and tribalism is a base survival instinct. Most humans (heavily biased to higher testosterone levels) have some sort of contention or contest based entertainment due to this drive being so historically important. It's current validity is an interesting debate, but the base drive is well proven.

so, your question poses an interesting tangent... have we evolved exponentially faster than the "base programming" that has kept us alive has? ( I think, yes. but then; with great power.....)

[Tyy1907]

Fascinating insights in this thread.

In some ways we've improved. Gladiators fighting tigers and each other has turned into the less brutal sports like football and the like.

Slavery has rightfully been outlawed.

However as Rgray puts it, war and the threats of war have stuck around. Dangling the carrot of survival, get that country before they get us.

It just dawned on me that the human race is in that gladiator arena, one country pitted against another. Slavery can take many forms.

[Bluegreen]

No. . . .

[Delight]

Posted by Bluegreen (here)
No. . . .

I say NONONO. However the question assumes that WAR will always be and that IMO is the crux. IMO I am going to victorious "War NO MORE" itself. I am that powerful and so are you. That is the place to begin.

[Spiral]

There are two types of going to war, the one most people think of is the response to this,

He who fires the first shot should suffer severe economic penalties, sanctions and loss of standing. There must be consequences.

Often the only response to that is war, like Churchill declared on Nazi Germany when they invaded Poland, and in current times Putin doing the Special Military Operation in the Ukraine, this is what most people would call "justified" because the alternative is usually death and or slavery.

It used to be just about which guy got to be King, but not anymore.

The other type is where the media fills peoples heads with lies and there is usually an accompanying "false flag" attack (ie the State kills it's own citizens & blames an outside power), which then becomes the pretext for a war, the real objectives of which are hidden behind the MSM lies previously mentioned. The USA, the UK & NATO are experts at this & it needs to stop, the rest of the world is very much wise to this BS & it's going to be our undoing.

[onawah]

Slavery may have been outlawed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't still exist.
People are being kidnapped and tricked and sold into slavery all over the world, including Western nations.
And given how many more people there are in the world now, there may be even more victims of slavery now than ever before.

Posted by Tyy1907 (here)
Fascinating insights in this thread.

In some ways we've improved. Gladiators fighting tigers and each other has turned into the less brutal sports like football and the like.

Slavery has rightfully been outlawed.

However as Rgray puts it, war and the threats of war have stuck around. Dangling the carrot of survival, get that country before they get us.

It just dawned on me that the human race is in that gladiator arena, one country pitted against another. Slavery can take many forms.

Posted by rgray222 (here)

There is a lot to unpack and think about. What should be done when a world leader starts committing genocide against his own people? Should we just let ethnic cleansing happen or should the countries of the world unite and send in troops to prevent further loss of life and destruction of property? There are many real-life scenarios where war appears to be justified.

Something should be done, but we need to find better solutions than war.

[Bill Ryan]

Thanks for the excellent thread.

I'm only going to offer an analogy, because it might be helpful in thinking about this.

We almost always consider war as war between nations. But the exact parallel would be a war with your neighbor.

He keeps stealing your chickens, or moves his fence posts over the border into your own property to steal a little of the land you have available in your garden. Or maybe (as in the Trojan War!) he has an affair with your wife.

As a citizen, you should have legal recourse. And in a fair and just society, that would, or should, work. But in all of known human history, that's a very recent innovation.

We might assume that 40,000 years ago, if you were a Cro-Magnon, and a Neanderthal stole what you considered to be your property, you might get together a posse of your friends and family and go steal it back, beating him up in the process and maybe stealing some of his property in revenge. That's how things worked for eons.

Now, we have police and law courts — imperfect though they may be. But it's at least a theoretically good idea. Ask any Ancient Roman or Greek.

So the real problem on a global nation-state level is that there's no reliable, workable and functioning equivalent to address serious international conflicts. (I stress "reliable, workable and functioning".)

If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

[Delight]

I really really really wonder:

What if there IS a coming bifurcation as us woowoo people expect (though people look at it from POV they have). IMO there are a few irreconcilable differences between peace and war at every level from self to family to kin to friend to community bigger and bigger to the whole world. IMO.

IMO war is akin to defense (which manifest often as no SOURCE contact) to fear (and NEED for protection) to projection (off loading one's cognitive dissonance), to power OVER, to victory over and domination. THEN the WAR to protect the dominion........ad nauseum

Contrast living OPEN to the energy of the Source, forgiving self and others with self reflecting, to power within and gathering wisdom, to victory WITH all beings and live and let live.

Why would anyone choose what I repudiate? The INVERSION in it means one is always paranoid, hungry for connection and dependent on external power.

I just do not understand WAR and all its cousins. That is why there WILL be a bifurcation. There will be nothing except perhaps a distant memory of the INVERSION of the truth of US.

When we look at the Indigenous North American that had a culture I could live in, there was a myth that there would be a return of the Rainbow Tribe. This is all who share the common PEACE which precedes all that we will craft in culture. IMO but I absolutely KNOW that right now, our commitment to the IDEAL we LOVE will carry us there. That means that those who love WAR will have it. We will part company.

[Sunny-side-up]

Posted by onawah (here)
How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

True, true but:

From any other perspective, it's simply BUSSNES and childish.

[xidaijena]

Is war so entrenched in the human psyche that it will be impossible to end?

Well, there are people, there will be war. Unless, they are all kind people who have the same faith and share the same frequency and resonance with each other. That would be no called as Earth but Paradise or Heaven as Jesus Christ said.

So, good wish is that we are all one. But the reality is we can be only kind to each other in 1000 years which is without marriage and family.
But you can also know that 80% people or even 90% people can't accept that value of no marriage or family.

Just wait and see what will happen in the coming future soon. I already saw many young people choose not to marriage now!

[Vangelo]

For me, this question boils down to sovereignty. I am willing to defend my sovereignty from anyone who attempts to take it from me. Hence, I am in a justified war against that person or nation.

I don't think anyone has the right to take away anyone else's sovereignty and I believe the vast majority, if not all wars, are waged specifically to take someone else's sovereignty.

Taking this to the question of mask mandates, vaccines, etc... the argument justifying those actions are, you must surrender your sovereignty and take the vax, etc. to protect your neighbor. For those of you who don't believe war is justifiable, you are agreeing to comply and surrender that bit of your sovereignty.

[ExomatrixTV]

Imagine one side says & upholds: "war is never justified" (which sounds perfectly reasonable & noble) ... Lets use Australia 🇦🇺 as an hypothetical example ... it can happen that Australia 🇦🇺 can not pay the huge massive debts to China anymore ... China Deploys mass Force of Weapons in Australia causing thousands to die ... and NOBODY does anything about it because they assume "war is never justified" ...

• All sounds nice but when you face another country using big weaponry ... you may think again!

Am against all forms of wars no matter who or what ... but: the right to defend yourself stays above anything else ... very similar to 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution

For the record Australia 🇦🇺 has no means to defends itself against China if it invades thier country ... Australia will lose big time ... Because Australia is part of Nato >>>"Article 5" ensures that all Nato countries will help defend Australia! <<< this is well known to China!

• When profiteering of wars were to be made illegal how would the world look like?

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

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[Chester]

Posted by onawah (here)
There seems to be a contradiction in your reasonsing here.

Posted by Chester (here)
Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.
Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.
And I find this very disheartening.

Point it out. I'm open, but you need to point it out.

[Chester]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

I have the exact same thought and use the exact same "next level" analogy of "a future Star Trek world" as the carrot.