Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

[onawah]

Unless some way could first be found to identify and then contain the actions of psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, etc., even such a sophisticated progam of testing could be perverted and misused by just those types of individuals.
Just as they seem to have found ways to pervert and misuse so many other systems in our current paradigm.
Even newer methods of dealing with such would likely have to be developed before that could take place, though hopefully they would be compassionate.
Otherwise, shades of Clockwork Orange....

Posted by Digit (here)
Oh to avail broad spectrum aptitude tests.
Having broad spectrum aptitude batteries of tests in common familiarity would help dispel the singular pecking order, as so often presented/conceived of by IQ tests, and would avail greater self awareness. They'd also serve as a useful optional metric to apply to all areas of endeavor, to help weigh suitability and contributions, by the relevant tests.

Also see: "Prof. Sam Vaknin on the narcissistic mind:"the future will be a narcissistic and psychopathic civilization and narcissists and psychopaths will rise to the top, and I teach you how to survive in this brave new world."https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...=1#post1554363

[Flash]

Sam Vaknin referred below is a self proclaimed narcissist - which he definitly is, and most probably bordering sociopath — very bright no doubts, and quite realistic while describing those like him - yes they think as he describes and we are fooled by them.

However saying that psychopaths will rise to the top and govern us, well this has nothing to do with the future. It is actually happening more and more and it was what happened in China under Mao and is still happening there, what happened in Russia under Lenine and Staline and is still happening there and in multitude of other countries.

It is however more and more prevalent in western societies as well. For the last 30 years narcissisn traits in the population has double in the US and it keeps rising. (see Dr Twenge for the research and stats). A minimum of 11% of US population had strong narcissistic traits by 2009 -imagine now 2023 - and 3 to 6% of the population was then considered pathological narcissists.

The problem truly is the just and heartfilled people, who do not raise up to stop it. Who prefer to keep their beliefs blinders on while letting their world being taken over by pathologically sick people. When we accept to wake up about the outside world, we have to wake up regarding our inner world, our beliefs system, as well and it demands work, energy and accepting to change our own personnal world as well.

Very few have inner courage evrn if most are good hearted.

Vaknin is promoting and defending his own breed. While accepting the truth on whom they are, We do not have to abide by it at all imo.

Posted by onawah (here)
Unless some way could first be found to identify and then contain the actions of psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, etc., even such a sophisticated progam of testing could be perverted and misused by just those types of individuals.
Just as they seem to have found ways to pervert and misuse so many other systems in our current paradigm.
Even newer methods of dealing with such would likely have to be developed before that could take place, though hopefully they would be compassionate.
Otherwise, shades of Clockwork Orange....

Posted by Digit (here)
Oh to avail broad spectrum aptitude tests.
Having broad spectrum aptitude batteries of tests in common familiarity would help dispel the singular pecking order, as so often presented/conceived of by IQ tests, and would avail greater self awareness. They'd also serve as a useful optional metric to apply to all areas of endeavor, to help weigh suitability and contributions, by the relevant tests.

Also see: "Prof. Sam Vaknin on the narcissistic mind:"the future will be a narcissistic and psychopathic civilization and narcissists and psychopaths will rise to the top, and I teach you how to survive in this brave new world."https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...=1#post1554363

[Digit]

Unless some way could first be found to identify and then contain the actions of psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, etc., even such a sophisticated progam of testing could be perverted and misused by just those types of individuals.
Just as they seem to have found ways to pervert and misuse so many other systems in our current paradigm.
Even newer methods of dealing with such would likely have to be developed before that could take place, though hopefully they would be compassionate.
Otherwise, shades of Clockwork Orange...

Despite the opening conditional, seems to suggest rejecting such a system of rich benefits for all, on presumptive belief it inescapably inevitably broken and abused to invert the benefits.

While I can't absolutely centrally refute the possibility, nor can I offer clear counter-examples, I do remember being impressed by the tests I took for accomplishing such even within individual tests. There are many clever statistical methods too, to help deal with this issue. The moral and ethical tests themselves, I recall finding quite effective at luring narcissistic psychopathic/sociopathic aspects to reveal themselves, difficult to avert. I find more merit to exploring the potential of developing further means to deal with this issue, than to reject the idea in defeatist presumption.

Aside from other portions in my post I thought already touched on that issue, foremost to my thinking (with Mattias Desmet's book chirping a chorus in the back of my mind), is the reductivism, how the nuance of the many measures, averts the abusive potential of the single-pecking-order that would be used as an abused crude cudgel, as well as less intentional tragedy of the commons and conferred maladies of psychology. And along with that, (to further allay Mattias Desmet's concerns of certainty), (as I pointed out), the diversity of such psychometric mapping systems, not having a singular perspective proclaimed the one truth (not confusing the map for the terrain, and not disallowing a diversity of maps). In having the diversity of measures, and no measures wielded as sole gatekeeper, instead merely as another tool to help people climb out of ignorance, and avoid more ignorance of their ignorance (arrogance), seems to me, in itself, a tool by which to prevent sociopaths etc from attaining positions of abuse and usurption.

Sorry, that's very wordy... my prior mentioned high visual intelligence struggling to paint the picture in words by my low verbal intelligence.

Very thankful for that insight into myself, from such tests. Without which, I'd be more susceptible to ploys from cunning narcissistic sociopaths, giving my power away to them, in self-defeatist deference to whatever gaslighting, intimidation, interogation, subtle aloof ploys, or even poor-me dramas.

I'll try simplify and make the point more concise...

Such tests already being a means by which to help identify (and partly/percursor to "contain the actions of psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, etc., "), means to propose first we need it, is to say we need that thing before we get that thing. It already is that thing! ;D

That, in effect, was in [negative] part the most prominent point of me bringing it up. That it helps us better see, and prevent such. [And in positive part, allowing each our many human potentials to better shine where they better can.]

Knowledge is power.

--------------

Sam Vaknin referred below is a self proclaimed narcissist - which he definitly is, and most probably bordering sociopath — very bright no doubts, and quite realistic while describing those like him - yes they think as he describes and we are fooled by them.

Heh, yeah.
n_n "the things we hate in others, are that which we hate in our selves but do not face", Yus... the divide between good and evil cutting through the heart of each of us. ... and that black&white judgement division, rather absolutist reductive in its 1-bit binary... which a broad spectrum aptitude test would help avert, and show far greater richness of nuanced picture, no longer inducing affirmation of the malady of such victim-co-perpetrator identification of narcissist.
Or, is it cunning ploy, a kettle intentionally calling a pot sooty to misdirect attention away from own soot? n_n I think not so cunning, as in the opening proposition of the talk, offers becoming them, an opposame... I think I've seen that whole 3 hour lecture before, and critiqued it somewhere a while ago, and disinclined to put myself through it again, with many other things pressing for attention. [And in what little I'm catching of it, still listening, while typing this out, I'm reminded of part of my prior retort to it elsewhere, was against the simplification, the lack of nuance of various types, painting all alike simplified stereotype (reminds of "once you've met one autistic/aquarian/etc, you've met one autistic/aquarian/etc." speaking to the diversity beyond the initial crude stereotype, and depth of individual beyond the one characteristic. And also, the certainty of the "cant beat them, become them" advocacy, seems so great a folly, it needs no elaboration of critique.]
... not to mention, [not to make this about me, like getting sucked into the narcissism, lol] I sought to give up manipulativeness when i left a career "in advertising or marketing" just as I got in as deep as to make my first T.V. advert. Manipulating people's narcissism, watering it to grow more, presenting affirmative precedent to monkey-see-monkey-do, seems a flawed way out. Healing viable solution space to narcissism, lay elsewhere. Elsewhere than projecting aggrandising narcissists/narcissism and affirming dire outcomes as inevitable. Reminds of an aspect Allen Carr points out in his Easy Way, that the aggrandising, makes the big monster bigger. The big monster being the psychological projection, aggrandised. There's the self sabotage. The little monster (the addiction, or the narcissist), is very weak. It's the big monster, the aggrandising, that gets you speaking its words of aggrandisation in your own voice, so you believe it, and do not attempt to avert the little monster, which is much more weak and easily overcome, without the self-sabotaging affirmations of how insurmountable it is.

... Interesting, first time I recall applying that insight from the Easy Way to the issue of narcissism. I wonder how many other concerns can likewise be treated.

However saying that psychopaths will rise to the top and govern us, well this has nothing to do with the future. It is actually happening more and more and it was what happened in China under Mao and is still happening there, what happened in Russia under Lenine and Staline and is still happening there and in multitude of other countries.

&

The problem truly is the just and heartfilled people, who do not raise up to stop it. Who prefer to keep their beliefs blinders on while letting their world being taken over by pathologically sick people. When we accept to wake up about the outside world, we have to wake up regarding our inner world, our beliefs system, as well and it demands work, energy and accepting to change our own personnal world as well.

In recent interview I just watched (ironically with a self confessed narcissist interviewer), Dr Iain McGillchrist spoke to this a little, in an example of a few tens of people destroying history and statues etc, and people numbering in the thousands.

If we had broad spectrum aptitude tests, that included (accompanied by) psychology tests, it could provide tools/insight for those with narcissistic tendencies to avert their narcissism getting deeper entrenched. (Got in my mind, Joe Rogan's old "idiot test" bit, where an idiot keeps buying the lick test, frustrated at still getting the result of idiot... but the binary reductive judgement, idiot/not-idiot, narcissist/not-narcissist, may be a harm affirming/trapping part of the problem to avert, by educating with higher fidelity gradation, as well as broader nuance).

Better "has some" than "is a". Identification with, gets survival brain involved, and will defend the identification as if survival is at threat. This is not an easy way to learn and spiritually grow.

... and there, an old bit I've been doing for years, springs to mind as relevant here... "Nihilism's like salt. Everybody needs a little. Emphasis on little." Just enough to dislodge from believing ones own dogmas and identifications. Enough to dislodge from belief, from beliefism, from identification with belief, from belief of identification, from belief of belief. Just a non-belief portion. Lest succumb to confirmation bias, certainty and identification tangled together with the survival brain, a myopia not seeing more information, and held all the more tightly the more information is offered, seen as a threat to survival, and attacked in reflexive hostility, to guard the oblivious willful ignorance.

Very few have inner courage evrn if most are good hearted.

And with sufficient knowledge, in wise humility, not premature certainty, nor entangled identification with,
courage is not required
necessity is seen, and right action follows.

Knowledge is power.

And I mean that positively, to empower each and all with. Not in the abusive power-over sense, in which knowledge is denied, ignorance is imposed/induced, knowledge is curtailed to indoctrinated silos ignorant outwith. No. In the positive sense for each to know where the dangers are, and more, where more bounties for each and all are. Power to avert, yes. But more, power to create, and co-create. And do so even better. Where no courage is required, where once one may have managed by will to "feel the fear and do it anyway", instead, it is just now, being, with whole brained awareness, attending as needs arise.

Knowledge is power.

[onawah]

Simply identifying pathological types is no sure guarantee that they could then be contained.
Given how clever and manipulative such types are, it could still be possible for the testing process to be subverted to some other purpose.
It might simply cause them to redouble their efforts, and given how entrenched they are today (as Flash so rightly pointed out), it would be foolhardy and naive to discount that possibility, imho.
Studies have been done showing that people are generally much more stressed out today than they were 40 years ago (though I don't remember the exact number, of years, the point was clear).
The more stressed out the population is, the more pathology.
The rise of technology alienates us from and destroys Nature, and our connection with Nature is an extremely important factor in staying healthy and sane.
The underlying solution is obvious.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Not sure why this discusion devolved into yet another talk about the abnormal amongst us.
Yet are they even?
I bet they were taught, in one form or another to be anti-social.

Because the problem with the world of unintelligent people is not their social skills, it is those that teach them. Teaching is not a learning problem. And the measure of a good teacher is how many students have learnt the curriculum. Those that have failed to learn are not at fault - they have been underserved by those tasked to teach them.

There are no bad learners, only bad teachers.

I challenge anyone out of university to pass the simplest of tests possible to design for general intelligence. I guarantee they will fail it. So exactly what kind of education do our children receive? They come out of our edifices of higher learning dumber than when they went in. Except for a few exceptions, that accounts for every discipline, including the hard sciences.

We are failing our kids with what passes as education these days. It is far more accurate to call our schools cults of indoctrination.

I could teach a group of kids far better than most schools. But I would teach them skills that are transferrable to any topic and any situation.

When I teach apprentices, my first order of business is to see who can be taught. No point in teaching those that already believe they know. Next thing I teach those worthy is not specific skills but safety. I teach situational awareness, to be aware of where you are and to know where your fingers and toes are - at all times. Only then do I teach specific skills and techniques. But all along the way I make them aware of the discissions they are making without even knowing it. Sometimes those actions need to be analyzed in detail for flaws in logic. Sometimes a good conscious decision can be the difference between going home at the end of the day intact.

I think that for many careers, mentorship is the best way to learn.

Teaching is an art form. But it is also natural to learn by doing the teaching.
Problem is that learning is often accomplished by mimicking. If a teacher is socially disadvantaged, their students will learn to be dysfunctional.

By the way, teachers can be parents, family, friends, enemies, government, formal teachers, or any person a student interacts with.
And we are all students - and teachers - all the time.

Learning never ends. Do we teach that in schools?
NO

[rgray222]

I have a neighbor whose father was a rocket scientist for NASA actually JPL (Jet Propulsion Lab) he worked on the Apollo missions for NASA. Her mother was a professor at Princeton. She skipped grades while growing up, went to Andover and graduated early, and went on to graduate from Harvard in three years, from there she went on to become a Rhodes Scholar to study at Oxford. I can only guess that her IQ is off the charts but this poor woman can't crack an egg, her social skills are non-existent and she suffers from pretty severe depression. Most people think she is nothing more than a crotchety, cantankerous meanspirited woman because that is how she comes off.

I honestly believe that there is an important place for people like this in society. They make connections that most of us are incapable of making and their talent and competency lie in areas that most of us simply do not get or understand.

These people should be nurtured and cared for, they are rare gems (no matter how difficult they seem) in a vast sea of averageness.

[Bill Ryan]

Bumping this thread with a terrific summary of the entire problem.
(The video title would have been a better title for this thread )

Why Smart People Believe Stupid Things

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=5Peima-Uw7w

[Bruce G Charlton]

Blowing my own trumpet for a moment, if I may be forgiven... One of my most successful publications, in terms of influence, was one in which I used the term Clever Sillies to explore this phenomenon, or something similar:

http://medicalhypotheses.blogspot.co...ck-common.html