Is War Ever Necessary or Justified?

[JackMcThorn]

Posted by rgray222 (here)
Just a one minute video but makes a lot of sense.

America is not blessed with common sense both at Echelon and among the people. Sure, someone brings it up from time to time but words are not actions. When you start seeing actions, that will be the paradigm shift and it is not to say it starts with america. [Although many used to think the example was america for some time.]

I am beginning to wonder if the events we are seeing: Natural Disasters including armed conflict, are some sort of punishment of particular areas. When it comes to balance, which nature does do effectively, it seems like nature does take its sweet time.

[East Sun]

Some people have said that the globalists have been defeated.
I sincerely hope that that is so.

If not it would be a good idea to stop them as they are causing havoc
world wide against humanity, which is us I believe or any living entity
that is on the side of humanity.

We have problems in--fighting among ourselvs, something we need to
resolve soon before we have to deal with off/on planet groups far more
advanced than us. We need to start thinking in advanced, get rid of
Biden and all crime families who are totally motivated by greed.

How can we eliminate greed? That would be a good place to start
thinking about don't you think----any ideas anyone.........

[rgray222]

This is something that I posted on WW3? Ukraine/US vs. Donbass/Russia, I thought it might be appropriate on this thread as well.


I would like to take a second and rant, my apologies if it ruffles a few feathers but mine fell back in place when I finished writing this.

One of the major consequences of war is the impact on the mental health of civilians and soldiers, it is tremendously significant. Not one person in the war zone escapes, not men, women, children, the elderly, the disabled or even our pets. There is a definite increase in the incidence and prevalence of severe mental disorders in all people but especially women. The long-term effects of war are simple, it destroys countries, communities, families and individuals. The suicide rate of those participating and those that are impacted by war catapults to obscene levels, these souls are lost forever.

Wars do not make men or countries great, but they do bring out the greatness in good men. War is romantic only to those who are far away from the horrific sounds, turmoil, destruction, blood and death on the battlefield. Romanticizing war is an idiots game played by politicians, mainstream media moguls and only those that have something to gain.

To make war work it needs a villain, the bigger the better, this justifies the chaotic death and destruction on a grand scale and makes the hero (usually a false champion) shine a bit brighter. It forces people to choose sides even those that have no material interest in the war. Once you choose sides you are participating and condoning in the murder and destruction of war. Once you have chosen sides you have become a willing pawn in the system, you might as well be on the battlefield with a weapon. The game cannot be played without a villain, the game cannot be played without participants.

A sea change needs to take place regarding how we think about our political leadership. Politicians that discuss or suggest war as a real option to solve problems need to be removed from leadership roles. If one country or village has a grievance with another there should be a mechanism to hash it out with words and diplomacy, not hate and guns.

We need to flip our priorities, memorializing science, invention, creative thinking and altruistic behaviour not war and death.

[East Sun]

Problem is with the people who, behind the scenes, start wars and gain
a lot financially. They are not even seen as part of the equation.

People have to fight to protect themselves and often their country.

[Bill Ryan]

No-one reading this would wish for unjustified violence against any human (or in my own case, against any living thing).

But the problems are about the lack of effective legal recourse to immoral or unethical acts.

That's why wars happen — because (in the eyes of the instigators, and usually all the participants) there's no other way to settle a dispute.

Near the very start of this thread, I shared these thoughts on my post #13. It feels 100% clear to me that this is the overwhelmingly principal issue.

~~~

Thanks for the excellent thread.

I'm only going to offer an analogy, because it might be helpful in thinking about this.

We almost always consider war as war between nations. But the exact parallel would be a war with your neighbor.

He keeps stealing your chickens, or moves his fence posts over the border into your own property to steal a little of the land you have available in your garden. Or maybe (as in the Trojan War!) he has an affair with your wife.

As a citizen, you should have legal recourse. And in a fair and just society, that would, or should, work. But in all of known human history, that's a very recent innovation.

We might assume that 40,000 years ago, if you were a Cro-Magnon, and a Neanderthal stole what you considered to be your property, you might get together a posse of your friends and family and go steal it back, beating him up in the process and maybe stealing some of his property in revenge. That's how things worked for eons.

Now, we have police and law courts — imperfect though they may be. But it's at least a theoretically good idea. Ask any Ancient Roman or Greek.

So the real problem on a global nation-state level is that there's no reliable, workable and functioning equivalent to address serious international conflicts. (I stress "reliable, workable and functioning".)

If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

[onawah]

Bumping this thread with some very insightful words of wisdom from Alan Watts, beginning at 13 minutes into the video, about how Democracy inevitably becomes Fascism...
And at 16 minutes in, about why a wise King keeps the Court Fool close by, to remind the King that he too is only human, and not to give himself airs and graces, and to remember that there are forces and domains far beyond his...
And finally, that it is very difficult in our present world to abandon nationality.
(Themes that may also apply to the discussion in the thread "China Spying and Cyberwarfare". )

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=51mBqzhQUGI

[rgray222]

I was on a site today and just by chance, I watched these two videos back to back (In the order below). I could help but think that in the Ukraine-Russian war assessing blame is an idiots game because there will be absolutely no winners, only losers. The sooner we understand that fact the better our chances of survival as a species will be.

New Himars rockets being deployed by Ukraine and supplied by the USA.

[ozmirage]

War is either piracy or defense against piracy.
How can you tell the difference?
If the winners keep the property of the losers.

[rgray222]

Posted by ozmirage (here)
War is either piracy or defense against piracy.
How can you tell the difference?
If the winners keep the property of the losers.

Why would there be a need to tell the difference, one may have more spoils than the other but everyone who participates in war loses.

We need to look at war exactly the same way that we look at slavery today. If someone brings up slavery as a viable option for their workforce they would be rightly ostracized from all of society. If someone brings up the idea for war as a viable option to solving disputes they should be blackballed and shunned from all of society. If the human race survives it will eventually come to this conclusion.

[ozmirage]

Posted by rgray222 (here)

Posted by ozmirage (here)
War is either piracy or defense against piracy.
How can you tell the difference?
If the winners keep the property of the losers.

Why would there be a need to tell the difference, one may have more spoils than the other but everyone who participates in war loses.

That is no reason to tolerate evil. Pacifism in the face of piracy is unmerciful to their next victim.

We need to look at war exactly the same way that we look at slavery today. If someone brings up slavery as a viable option for their workforce they would be rightly ostracized from all of society. If someone brings up the idea for war as a viable option to solving disputes they should be blackballed and shunned from all of society. If the human race survives it will eventually come to this conclusion.

Anyone in a socialist country is compelled to labor for the benefit of another. That's slavery.
Why aren't you protesting against socialism, too?

[Bill Ryan]

I'm reposting this (my earlier post #13) to bump the valuable thread.

I'm fully aware that many good members (not only rgray222 who started the thread) have grave and sincere concerns about the so-called 'morality of war'. I still fully believe that my post addresses this.

In the absence of any kind of fair and functioning global legal system, sometimes nations have to take things into their own hands.

— Just as you would have to do personally if you lived in the US Wild West, with no sheriff at hand and no-one to help you fend off the nightly cattle raiders. You'd have to take action yourself. Clearly, no-one's going to stop the cattle raiders apart from you.

It's simply your last resort after all negotiations, peace offers and agreements have broken irretrievably.

In one sentence, returning to our present-day world:

It's the totally failed, corrupt and US-dominated UN that's the problem.

In the current Russia-Ukraine war, Russia has no other options available to resolve the situation, despite having previously tried every other means available over the course of many years.

Here's what I posted earlier:

~~~

Thanks for the excellent thread.

I'm only going to offer an analogy, because it might be helpful in thinking about this.

We almost always consider war as war between nations. But the exact parallel would be a war with your neighbor.

He keeps stealing your chickens, or moves his fence posts over the border into your own property to steal a little of the land you have available in your garden. Or maybe (as in the Trojan War!) he has an affair with your wife.

As a citizen, you should have legal recourse. And in a fair and just society, that would, or should, work. But in all of known human history, that's a very recent innovation.

We might assume that 40,000 years ago, if you were a Cro-Magnon, and a Neanderthal stole what you considered to be your property, you might get together a posse of your friends and family and go steal it back, beating him up in the process and maybe stealing some of his property in revenge. That's how things worked for eons.

Now, we have police and law courts — imperfect though they may be. But it's at least a theoretically good idea. Ask any Ancient Roman or Greek.

So the real problem on a global nation-state level is that there's no reliable, workable and functioning equivalent to address serious international conflicts. (I stress "reliable, workable and functioning".)

If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

[rgray222]

I have often thought that all the technological and medical advancements that result from wars are rather astonishing. I have also wondered if war is our choice or if it is preordained before we ever arrive on earth.

This is a very short video of Elon Musk saying that wishing for world peace may not be a good thing.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Icw3k4MYNiw

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

You could reasonably argue that war IS the sole imperative of the human race. Every year of recorded human history is stained with it. You'd think we'd learn our lesson by now.

But what if it isn't all our fault? What if we were pawns on a board being moved by invisible hands?

When you look at the history of war, invasion, subjugation and capitulation, you see the same old story play out -- from ancient Babylon, to the Roman Empire, to the Nazis of the twentieth century. Is it because the storyteller has remained the same?

It's highly probable that geopolitical posturing and the wars that result are the machinations of a group of hidden players, of powerful and ancient families (bloodlines) that have controlled the world, its wars, its politics, it economics, its information -- its everything, for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

A secret society, a 'deep state', a cartel of secret financiers... Maybe they're the ones pulling the strings; they orchestrate the wars, finance and arm them, and every nation, and every head of state is merely a puppet doing their bidding.

When you dig deep in this area and think deep, many strange dots line up. Like those unelected officials of the powerhouse conglomerates (think WEF, IMF, the WHO and many more). They meet in secret and answer to no one and have zero checks and balances. Like all that money, black rivers of it, that flow behind the scenes. They come from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking (think CIA, MI6, and Mossad). What are they really doing, how are they doing it, and who are they doing it for?

None of this new information, especially here on Avalon. But it's worth taking into account when questioning the whys and hows of war. Because people continue to say Biden this, Starmer that, Putin and Netanyahu the other...without taking into account the existence of the invisible players. Politicians don't and never really have pulled any significant global strings. They're just pawns on the board. The moves they make they are told to make. They don't have any other choice. And why not? Think skeletons in the closet (very dark, very nasty). You don't get a place on the board unless you have at least one. That's how the game is managed.

[grapevine]

No, I don't think it is.

The purpose of war is to take the resources of another country without paying for them (or other gains), regardless of the reasons given at the time. The “spoils” are never shared with the people who actually do the fighting, however, but are kept by the already powerful and rich elite who don’t do any of the fighting themselves but who send their serfs. Should they survive without injury they get a medal, and if they’re injured or disabled they get nothing and are discarded.

Strange business war . . .

[rgray222]

I think it may come down to free will. Just like the broad strokes of your life are predetermined (I believe) before you arrive on Earth, and so it is with war. In our human lifetime, there will be several wars as well as regional and local conflicts around the world. You may choose to participate in them by utilizing some type of weapon to kill people or you may choose to walk away and pretend that they are not happening. Participation also includes discussing war, choosing sides and writing about it in a public forum such as Avalon. Your free will allows you to put yourself on this war/peace spectrum wherever you choose. The war is going to happen no matter what anyone does, how you react to it will help shape the essence of your soul.

[arjunaloka_official]

I think Jesus answers your question in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5, 38-39):

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Matthew 5, 39 is very difficult to understand and even more difficult to accept. My take is that it is a karmic statement. hence, if you are confronted with an evil person, this is a karmic effect of a karmic cause. if you fight a karmic effect with violence, it will get worse. you can try to negotiate peacefully, but violence would be the wrong choice. as said, ,this is very hard to accept. Jesus accepted it, did not fight evil with violence, which triggered cruxification - and, resurrection. most people will not accept cruxification but fight evil with evil - hence they will not gain eternal life (for the time being), but remain in the circle of life, samsara.

[Delight]

Posted by arjunaloka_official (here)
39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

If you look at this sentence again, what if the cheek you turn is the ass cheek which you turn as you walk away from evil?

One of the aspects of the participatory reality in which I seem to live is the issue of power. The realm in which I seem to live has WAR as a fundamental ideology. It is the ideology of a KING, a LORD who rules us or faceless "state" ruled by those who gain from war and we suffer all the consequences.

For instance, the creation of enemy justifies secrecy, violence, mental manipulation, coercion, murder, theft of resources, injury, LACK of responsibility (in war, anything goes with no repercussions). The state does not work for our welfare. WE serve the state with blood and guts and suffering unending. This is EVIL.

The thing is that in "times of war", people on the ground get to play out roles that PEOPLE WANT> patriotism, SERVICE to country and flag, the emotional connection to country and flag fighting enemy country and flag, the feeling one works for one's kin, opportunities for "brotherhood" with one's comrades in arms. One can even act out aggressions and hates. IMO conflict is different from WAR. Conflicts may be approached in so many ways.

Our preexisting traits that lead to courage, masculine protection of those in need, etc. GOOD and other traits of tribal insularity or belief one is "more worthy" make us ripe to be CRUELLY manipulated against all best interest. IMO we must see this horror repudiated FOREVER. SO, we must rout out the acceptance of war IN US. WE create war by participation.

IMO WAR is EVIL and we should turn the OTHER cheek. I had a poster... What if they gave a war and nobody came?

Frankly to the extent that people LOVE war, they will have it. However, it is EVIL and I turn my other cheek and refuse to applaud trappings of war and glorification of "POWER OVER IS SUPREME" and must be supported. The deaths, the devolution of civilization and shattering of well being are all collateral damage to the "over lords" who own war and US.

In my experience, war has only diminished life for us.

[rgray222]

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by arjunaloka_official (here)
39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

If you look at this sentence again, what if the cheek you turn is the ass cheek which you turn as you walk away from evil?

One of the aspects of the participatory reality in which I seem to live is the issue of power. The realm in which I seem to live has WAR as a fundamental ideology. It is the ideology of a KING, a LORD who rules us or faceless "state" ruled by those who gain from war and we suffer all the consequences.

For instance, the creation of enemy justifies secrecy, violence, mental manipulation, coercion, murder, theft of resources, injury, LACK of responsibility (in war, anything goes with no repercussions). The state does not work for our welfare. WE serve the state with blood and guts and suffering unending. This is EVIL.

The thing is that in "times of war", people on the ground get to play out roles that PEOPLE WANT> patriotism, SERVICE to country and flag, the emotional connection to country and flag fighting enemy country and flag, the feeling one works for one's kin, opportunities for "brotherhood" with one's comrades in arms. One can even act out aggressions and hates. IMO conflict is different from WAR. Conflicts may be approached in so many ways.

Our preexisting traits that lead to courage, masculine protection of those in need, etc. GOOD and other traits of tribal insularity or belief one is "more worthy" make us ripe to be CRUELLY manipulated against all best interest. IMO we must see this horror repudiated FOREVER. SO, we must rout out the acceptance of war IN US. WE create war by participation.

IMO WAR is EVIL and we should turn the OTHER cheek. I had a poster... What if they gave a war and nobody came?

Frankly to the extent that people LOVE war, they will have it. However, it is EVIL and I turn my other cheek and refuse to applaud trappings of war and glorification of "POWER OVER IS SUPREME" and must be supported. The deaths, the devolution of civilization and shattering of well being are all collateral damage to the "over lords" who own war and US.

In my experience, war has only diminished life for us.

Thanks for your very thoughtful short post, you have provided much to think about.

Just a few random thoughts.

• The world's power structures memorialise war, allowing for an endless supply of young people to fight. Uncontrolled ego is dangerous enough but the untethered superego of the young fighting-age male is lethal. The superego reminds the person of their commitment to a patriotic lifestyle and instils feelings of guilt for non-participation in war. A patriotic lifestyle can be a healthy attribute but our leaders have found a way to channel patriotism into the death and destruction of war, and then memorialize it to enshrine its importance and usefulness.
• All despots create enemies because it allows them to justify war. This is what Hitler did in 1939 before he invaded Poland. This is what Putin did in 2022 before he invaded Ukraine. This is also what Europe/USA did to taunt Putin into war.
• Conflict is a precursor of war so in my mind, it is the same. Quite often the media uses the word conflict because it draws less attention and is not so threatening. But to those being maimed or being killed in the conflict it sure as hell feels like war.
• The mainstream media's grip on how we view wars (conflict vs war) has just about come to an end. Once that happens conflict/war will start to be viewed in a much more realistic and horrific light. It is just another reason to hate media and this change can't happen soon enough.
• War is a psychological mass phenomenon that diminishes our humanity. It is man-made and contrary to what we have been taught it has no cultural or historical value whatsoever. Violent behavior must never ever be normalized, we must memorialize math, science, health and altruism.

I posted this before but it seems appropriate here.

[Delight]

Posted by rgray222 (here)

Just a few random thoughts.

• The world's power structures memorialise war, allowing for an endless supply of young people to fight. Uncontrolled ego is dangerous enough but the untethered superego of the young fighting-age male is lethal. The superego reminds the person of their commitment to a patriotic lifestyle and instils feelings of guilt for non-participation in war. A patriotic lifestyle can be a healthy attribute but our leaders have found a way to channel patriotism into the death and destruction of war, and then memorialize it to enshrine its importance and usefulness.
• All despots create enemies because it allows them to justify war. This is what Hitler did in 1939 before he invaded Poland. This is what Putin did in 2022 before he invaded Ukraine. This is also what Europe/USA did to taunt Putin into war.
• Conflict is a precursor of war so in my mind, it is the same. Quite often the media uses the word conflict because it draws less attention and is not so threatening. But to those being maimed or being killed in the conflict it sure as hell feels like war.
• The mainstream media's grip on how we view wars (conflict vs war) has just about come to an end. Once that happens conflict/war will start to be viewed in a much more realistic and horrific light. It is just another reason to hate media and this change can't happen soon enough.
• War is a psychological mass phenomenon that diminishes our humanity. It is man-made and contrary to what we have been taught it has no cultural or historical value whatsoever. Violent behavior must never ever be normalized, we must memorialize math, science, health and altruism.

The memorialization of war, the romanticism of war, the social demonization of "pacifism", the ongoing "crops" raised to satisfy the maw of the machine is against all reason or preservation of the world. There are the "old fat men" who would take all the young females to themselves. You see it in Islam, in Mormonism and subtly in western society where older men have the means and young men are expendable. IMO, no one should even be allowed to suggest others fight. Therefore we must demand NOW the "honest war" fought by the (old fat) men and witches who "think it is ever necessary or justified".

[rgray222]

There are the "old fat men" who would take all the young females to themselves. You see it in Islam, in Mormonism and subtly in western society where older men have the means and young men are expendable. IMO, no one should even be allowed to suggest others fight. Therefore we must demand NOW the "honest war" fought by the (old fat) men and witches who "think it is ever necessary or justified".

Delight this just proves your point.

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden’s administration is urging Ukraine to quickly increase the size of its military by drafting more troops and revamping its mobilization laws to allow for the conscription of those as young as 18.
Source: Joesph Biden President of the US

I thoroughly enjoy what Donald Trump said to Liz Cheney about starting wars.

"She's a radical war hawk. Let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her, OK? Let's see how she feels about it—you know, when the guns are trained on her face." Referring to politicians who are inclined to favor U.S. military interventions, Trump added: "You know, they're all war hawks when they're sitting in Washington in a nice building, saying, 'Oh, gee, well, let's send, let's send 10,000 troops right into the mouth of the enemy.'"
Donald J. Trump President-Elect USA

This quote by Donald Trump holds a key to one of the major reasons for his victory. We know deep in our DNA that war should never be fought. We have not progressed far enough as a species to understand how to avert war with actions or words. So, in the meantime, we let our masters tell us that war is necessary, and we reluctantly believe them.

We gaze solemnly at the memorials they built to make us believe the lie that our young people died with dignity. We watch as they bring home our young in caskets draped with flags and escorted by soldiers in uniform. At some point, our reluctance to believe that war is necessary will turn to anger and that is when change is imminent.