On the death toll of the Jewish Holocaust

[bogeyman]

There may be many unmarked graves of those that were killed just before the end of the war, to be found and counted if that is possible. And the worse fact is many who did these killing were not prosecuted nor even mentioned or found.

[loungelizard]

@ Herve re your post 49

By posting this article, are you implying that Hoss's memories have been implanted? You didn't explain your intention, so I'm having to assume it's that.

The unreliability of memory is precisely the reason one of the chief prosecutors at the Nuremberg trials, Robert Jackson, decided to argue his case primarily on the basis of thousands of pieces of Nazi documentation rather than eyewitness testimony, so that the trial could not be accused of relying on biased or tainted testimony.

We all know memory is malleable and can mislead us. And how hard it is to differentiate between true and false memories. And then there's confabulation. We're all aware of the potential for implanted memories, but even when carried out in a controlled lab situation by trained researchers, it succeeds less than 50 % of the time.

Regarding the relevance of this topic to those who witnessed the Holocaust: if there was only a handful of witnesses, perpetrators and bystanders at one single camp, then this theory could be interesting to explore. But the fact is that there are tens of thousands of witnesses and defendants – some testifying in dozens of trials – who would all have had to have had false memories implanted.

If you really consider this theory, it raises more questions than it answers:

Memory implantation technique was little known about before the 1990s. Do we really believe it could have been implemented successfully and comprehensibly fifty years previously and subsequently kept secret for half a century?

Is it really feasible to think that such an undertaking could have been done in such a short time and on such a huge scale, in languages – Polish, German, Croatian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Ukranian etc - foreign to those who would have been perpetrating the process?

How could they have ensured that all testimonies cross checked:
a) with the eyewitness testimony of others?
b) with Nazi documentation?
c) with the physical evidence?

How would the problem of low success rate (27% in one major study) have been overcome? Where are the people for whom these false implanted memories didn't take root? Why aren't they screaming from the roof tops that that's not 'how it was'?

How did they achieve mass implantation of the same memories in dozens of witnesses? That can't be achieved even now.

Are we saying that this is proof that time travel actually works?! How would false memory implantation have been done retrospectively in, for example, these cases?
a) The falsification would have to have been back dated so that the detailed diary entries made during the war by leaders such as Goebbels and Himmler matched up perfectly with their testimonies after the war.
b) Whistleblowers such as Edward Schulte, the German industrialist, warned of the systematic extermination of Jews and other minorities in 1942. The Riegner telegram was sent to the Allies as a result of his disclosure.
c) Kurt Gerstein, the Head of Technical Disinfection Services, was responsible for the purchase of prussic acid. He, and 2 other men, Gunther and Pfannenstiel, witnessed the gassing of 3,000 Jews in Belzec . In 1942, he spoke of this to the Swedish diplomat Göran von Otter, who was based in Berlin. He also contacted the Swiss delegation in Berlin, and the Vatican. No one took him seriously. How could these have been false memories?

This is a compilation of letters from ordinary soldiers in the German army who witnessed the events and wrote about them – at the time - in correspondences to their families: “The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders” by Klee, Dressen, Riess, Trevor-Roper and Burnstone. How did the false memories become implanted in them?

What about accounts of thousands of ordinary workers to the events of the Holocaust? The train drivers and delivery men? Men such Petras Zelionka, a Lithuanian man who worked with the Einsatzgruppe – the mobile killing units in the area where he lived. He openly testified that he took part in the murder of Jews in 1941. http://ww2history.com/testimony/Holo..._Einsatzgruppe

Did they manage to falsify the memories of ordinary civilians and the media too? Many have spoken and written about what happened, both at the time and in the years since. Research (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard) analysing the media of the time has shown that many, many German citizens knew – or strongly suspected - what was going on in the camps. The measures had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of official German media articles. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and that, like other groups and minorities, they were being systematically killed. After all, it was general knowledge that the Action T-4 programme had “euthanised” 70,000 people between 1939 and 1941 in the name of “racial hygiene” . Hitler was in favour of killing those whom he judged to be "unworthy of life". T-4 was not a well kept secret in pre-war Germany, and it was the beginning of an extended and systematic killing programme. Or are these implanted memories too?

Were false memories implanted in the the 23 doctors (and almost 100 witnesses) who appeared in the Doctors' Trial in 1946, accused of the systematic killing of German citizens deemed "unworthy of life", including the mentally disabled, the institutionalized mentally ill, and the physically impaired in psychiatric hospitals in Germany and Austria?

Or Margarete Barthel, an SS guard at Ravensbruck. In an interview in 1999, she told the world that although she knew 1000 women a month were dying there, ‘You could turn off your brain, if you tried’. Margarete has asked for her ashes to be laid at Ravensbruck as an apology and a tribute to the women who died there: “The fact that I was there at all, that without trying to do anything I stood there and watched.”Were memories in scores of others just like her implanted too?

And then, of course, there are the personal memories of some of our parents, grandparents and great grandparents.

So, basically, when you think about it, although the suggestion is interesting, the scale of such an endeavour is utterly unfeasible.



The implantation of false memories seems to me to be being carried out right now by the likes of Mark Weber, Eustace Mullins, Willis Carto, Harry Elmer Barnes, David Irving, Bradley Smith, Ernst Zundel, Robert Faurisson, Arthur Butz....it is they who are attempting to assassinate memory.

They are doing what Oskar Groening sacrificed his freedom to stop when he chose to step out of obscurity and face his recent trial for actions during his time at Auschwitz. He described letters he received from Holocaust deniers as being "From people who tried to prove that what I had seen with my own eyes, what I had experienced in Auschwitz was a big, big mistake, a big hallucination on my part because it hadn't happened.”

"I saw everything. The gas chambers, the cremations, the selection process. One and a half million Jews were murdered in Auschwitz. I was there." http://web.archive.org/web/200703020...355188,00.html

[loungelizard]

@ Tesseract

If you look back through the contents of this thread, and wonder – as I do - about the nature of some of the posts here, this article might shed some light. It's an essay by Israel Charny, a respected authority on genocide (specifically, the Armenian genocide of 1915), where he addresses the relationship between 'innocent' and 'malevolent' deniers, and the psychological issues that are behind each of these:
“The Psychological Satisfaction of Denials of the Holocaust and Other Genocides by Non-Extremists or Bigots, and Even by Known Scholars”.
http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=27

This is another essay, by Kenneth Lasson (Professor of Law at Baltimore) this time:
“Genocide denial should be recognized not as an attempt at free inquiry, but as an exercise in distortion. Universities should be regarded as places with the moral responsibility of training students to think critically, not of providing platforms for bigots whose sole purpose is to stir up hatred.”
http://www.schaler.net/Lasson.pdf

And an interesting editorial about the denial of genocides committed in Serbia and Rwanda by Living Marxism.
http://www.theguardian.com/comment/s...181819,00.html

There is a lot of insightful work out there that throws a clear light on what is going on in deniers' minds.

Cults (such as Scientology), politicians and “true believers” (among others) use minimalisation, denial and blanking as techniques to avoid facing the truth. History is full of it. Just deny, and then ignore all unwanted evidence – which creates a handy, self-fulfilling prophecy. This thread exhibits classic examples of such behaviour.

Then add to that confirmation bias, false comparisons, obfuscation, attention diversion techniques, red herrings, fingers-in-ears, moral relativism, confabulation, irrationality, off-topic posts...anyone can see the game that is being played here

Genocide denial suits either psychological or political purposes (although I suppose there may be a possibility that it's merely the outcome of ignorance due to gaps in the knowledge of autodidacts). Denial is a means to an end, and the motivation is never pretty. As Goebbels wrote, "Propaganda has absolutely nothing to do with truth."

All genocides show that when one group is targeted, all people are vulnerable. I wonder which other genocides those sitting at home in their armchairs feel happy denying. Whose grand parents' memories will they try to deny next?

I do wonder whether those who deny the reality of the Holocaust also deny other genocides and massacres throughout history, or is there something about the Holocaust that makes it unique in their mind? And if they deny one aspect of the Holocaust, do they also deny the 5 million death toll of the Roma and Sinti people/political opponents/Polish intelligensia/mentally ill/Jehovah's Witnesses/Slavs/Russian soldiers/physically disabled/Catholic church leaders/the socialists and communists/the homosexuals/? Or is it just the Jews? And if so, why? Is there a reason other than the age-old one?

Survivors of all genocides say the same thing: they want the truth told. The historian Richard G. Hovannisian, whose family survived the Armenian Genocide, calls denial “memory murder”.

The Nazis themselves had recognized that the incredible nature of their atrocities would cast long shadows of doubt upon any eyewitness reports. Primo Levi described how inmates at concentration camps heard the frequent taunt from their captors that should they survive, their stories would not be believed:
”And even if some proof should remain and some of you survive, people will say that the events you describe are too monstrous to be believed: they will say that they are the exaggerations of Allied propaganda and will believe us, who will deny everything, and not you.”

For those who deny - and I still can't understand how they can do so when NONE of the perpetrators of the Holocaust did so – no one, obviously, can comment on their reasons. They are a matter for their conscience. But I'd like to hope that they had the courage to watch this film footage that was shot by military photographers during the liberation of the camps, and was shown at Nuremberg.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/nazi-...tration-camps/

For me, it seems the world needs more recognition of the suffering and horror inflicted on others, and not less.

[idiit]

Wednesday, August 5, 2015





What about the Holocaust witnesses? The Zundel Trials (1985 and 1988)

by
Robert Faurisson

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2015...es-zundel.html

fetzer's awesome. lengthy, well documented article. if you are interested in this topic the above linked article is a must read imo.

[Deega]

Here's a link (also a video presentation at the end) of Orthodox Rabbi saying Holocaust Exaggerated, Fewer Than 1 Million Jews Died, and it comes from a Orthodox Jews, interesting!


http://www.dailystormer.com/orthodox...ion-jews-died/

[Iloveyou]

"The Daily Stormer is an American Neo-Nazi and white supremacist news and commentary Website ... "

readmore:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Stormer

"The Daily Stormer is an alternative media and pro-European news website based in the United States ...
... is named for Julius Streicher's weekly newspaper Der Stürmer."

read more:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Daily_Stormer

JEWS = ZIONISTS ?????

The orthodox rabbi said that "... only about 1 million halachic Jews, meaning people born of a Jewish mother, perished in the Holocaust." The others were not "...Jewish according to halakha, or Jewish law." The Nazi chose to decide on their own who (to which degree) was a "Jew" and who was not.

As defined by the Nuremberg laws in 1935, a Jew (German: Volljude in Nazi terminology) was a person – regardless of religious affiliation or self-identification – who had at least three grandparents who had been enrolled with a Jewish congregation.[3] A person with two Jewish grandparents was also legally "Jewish" (so-called Geltungsjude, roughly speaking, in English: "Jew by legal validity") if that person met any of these conditions:

Was enrolled as member of a Jewish congregation when the Nuremberg Laws were issued, or joined later[4]
Was married to a Jew.
Was the offspring from a marriage with a Jew, which was concluded after the ban on mixed marriages.
Was the offspring of an extramarital affair with a Jew, born out of wedlock after July 31, 1936.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling

[lucidity]

Is anyone keeping a running total of the Palestinian dead ?

[ulli]

Posted by loungelizard (here)

For me, it seems the world needs more recognition of the suffering and horror inflicted on others, and not less.

For me, too.

The options are between increasing the supremacist stance, and remaining stuck in some collective inflated ego, regardless of true human merit, or growing as a collective; growth in terms of empathy, humanity, spirituality, and fulfilling the potential of the human spirit as a whole.

[Deega]

Posted by ulli (here)

For me, too.

The options are between increasing the supremacist stance, and remaining stuck in some collective inflated ego, regardless of true human merit, or growing as a collective; growth in terms of empathy, humanity, spirituality, and fulfilling the potential of the human spirit as a whole.

Yes!, every person who love himself will strive for these virtues, and then, if the majority goes for it, positive collective growth ensued.

But the Holocaust has been talked (Media, Education, even a Law in Germany forbiding denial of Holocaust) over and over through the years! Nations as person have to make their peace on this, true mourning to be able to get on with the next step, forgiving, giving, loving!

This Orthodox Jews tells that less than 1 million Jews died in 2WW, now something big must of been at stake to validate 6 millions Jews deaths in the Media, Education for decades. It 5 +- millions who didn't perished, didn't suffered the pain before death, the displacement, the outright abuses, the horror of war, etc., if this hold true, it's big!

[loungelizard]

Posted by Deega (here)
Here's a link (also a video presentation at the end) of Orthodox Rabbi saying Holocaust Exaggerated, Fewer Than 1 Million Jews Died, and it comes from a Orthodox Jews, interesting!


http://www.dailystormer.com/orthodox...ion-jews-died/

In the video posted here, Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi cites high assimilation rates in Europe before World War II to claim that 80 percent of those identified as Jews killed by the Nazis during the Holocaust were not Jewish. This is according to halachah, or Jewish law, as Iloveyou clarified. It is from this misinformation that he draws his conclusion that 1 million Jews were murdered during the holocaust.

He is wrong, based on the Nazis own record: the facts are that the rate of Jewish intermarriage in pre-World War II in Eastern Europe was relatively small – probably less than five percent.

Although the Rabbi is correct that assimilation did exist, his figures are way out. This is from David Bankier’s research “Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Volume 3, Number 1 (1988); Married to Intolerance: Attitudes towards Intermarriage in Germany 1900-2006”:

“The Nazis were notoriously accurate in their research and record keeping. According to their own statistics (1939 Reich Census) there were 442,000 Jews left in Germany. Of these Jews, 74.7% were fully Jewish. 16% were mixed of first degree, and a little less than 10% were mixed of second degree. If we assume that the genders intermarried equally, the number of non-halachic Jews were half of the 25 percent. About 12 and ½ percent of German Jews were not halachically Jewish.
Germany was the most assimilated country in Europe. Of the other countries, the assimilation was significantly less, probably less than half that of Germany.

"Of those who married before 1914, only 21.5% of Jews were in a mixed marriage - which translates to 10 percent of the children of Jewish families married before 1914 being halachically not Jewish. By the year 1932, this had surged to 65.1% – the all-time high. Assuming a standard rate of progression on average for the years between 1914 and 1932 the assimilation rate averaged 43 percent. Thus the amount of non-halachic Jews as a percentage of all German Jews was about 21 percent.

"88,000 German Jews were not halachically Jewish if we extrapolate from the careful records of the Nazis themselves. As the Nazis came to power in 1933, intermarriage in Germany plummeted. By 1939, only 20.6% of new marriages involving Jews were mixed, even less than before World War I. Cutting that in half we get about 10 percent again.

"According to the 1939 Reich census, there were about 72,000 Mischlinge of the 1st degree, 39,000 of the 2nd degree. In terms of the other 5.5 million Jews, we would be safe to assume a rate of less than 5% of Jews not being halachic Jews."


Mizrachi retracted and apologised for his inaccurate statements, acknowledging that they had their basis in his personal ignorance of historical facts.

"I wish to apologize for my incorrect statement regarding the six million Kedoshim that were tragically murdered in the Holocaust. In the video that was shown that was from years ago ( it was not current ) only part of what I said was displayed in the entire lecture that was 2 hours I said that “I don’t know and used the word maybe 5 maybe 3 maybe 1 million we will never know.

"But now, I have been shown the accurate statistics and I realize that those that were not halachically Jewish were a very small minimal number. I do not wish to offend any of the holocaust survivors or their family members it has never ever been my intention. The Kedoshim of the holocaust need to be remembered and sanctified in the most honorable way possible those who know my lectures over the years know that I published many stories of kidush hashem from the Holocaust. My goal was to wake up our nation to the silent holocaust that is happening now which is the increasing intermarriage cases in usa and the rest of the world." Yosef Mizrachi


Here he is trying to worm his way out of the situation he created:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ejrp1HH65ho

Taking a video clip of a controversial, much criticised, fringe, ultra-Orthodox haredic fundamentalist figure such as Mizrachi, in the hope that it will prove one’s cognitive bias, is not helpful to anyone.

To give people an idea of the kind of ‘teaching’ Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi offers: his site Divine Information (!) gives strict instructions as to how women should dress, says that the earthquakes in Nepal destroyed the “idol worshipping places”, claims that mixed dancing causes cancer, states that rape is a result of short skirts and painted faces, says that autism and Downs syndrome are sent to “cleanse the soul”, blames non-practising Jews for the Holocaust, states that Messianic Jews deserve the death penalty…and more.

Is this the kind of man whose opinion you would hold in any regard? Or would you file him under “fanatic: borderline loony”?

It’s saddening that a link to a site such as Daily Stormer (named in honour of the Nazi Julius Streicher who published an anti-Semitic paper called Der Sturmer and who was tried at Nuremberg and executed) with its hate-filled, vicious form of racism, and its organised trolling army should be found here on Avalon. Its founder, Andrew Anglin, is a self-professed fascist and National Socialist who proudly admits to seeding false news stories to incite hatred and promote false equivalency.

Mizrachi's video is available on scores of other sites: there was absolutely no need to link to this one.

[Cosmored]

Here's a piece of info I found.

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres3/HoaxV2.pdf

(excerpt)
-------------------------------------
The 1939 study of Arthur Ruppin, Professor of Jewish Sociology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, gave 16,717,000 Jews in the world in 1938. 17 Because Ruppin (who passed away in 1943) was considered the fore-most expert on such matters, on account of many writings on the subject over a period of many years, the estimates of other pre-war sources tend to agree with him. Thus the American Jewish Committee estimate for 1933, which ap-
pears in the 1940 World Almanac, was 15,315,359. The World Almanac figure for 1945 is 15,192,089 (page 367); no source is given but the figure is appar-ently based on some sort of religious census. The 1946 World Almanac re-vised this to 15,753,638, a figure which was retained in the editions of 1947 (page 74, 1948 (page 572) and 1949 (page 289). The 1948 World Almanac (page 249) also gives the American Jewish Committee estimate for 1938 (sic
), 15,688,259 while the 1949 World Almanac (page 204) reports new figures from the American Jewish Committee which were developed in 1947-1948: 16,643,120 in 1939 and 11,266,600 in 1947.
----------------------------------------


I haven't formed really firm opinion on this but here's some info I've collected. Check out post #2.
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12196&start=0

[Ravenlocke]

I’m posting this here, but Mods if this in the wrong thread please remove, thank you.

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1830974442253754864

Text:
Public execution of German war criminals in the Market Square of Nikolaev , Ukraine.

The following individuals were executed:

City Commandant Hermann Winkler.

SD Chief Hans Sandner.

Chief of the Regional Gendarmerie Department Max Büttner.

Chief of the Bereznegovatsky District Gendarmerie Rudolf Michel.

Chief of the Security Police Franz Witzleb, Deputy Chief of the Security Police Heinrich Schmale.

and Field Gendarmerie Sergeant Robert Berg.

Ukrainian SSR, January 17, 1946.

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1833621331470074229

[Ravenlocke]

Text:
Gypsy girl Johanna Schmidt, identified by a registration number on her clothing, was born in November 1937 in Leipzig. In the spring of 1943, she was taken to Auschwitz concentration camp, where she was assigned the number Z-1509. She was killed on June 9, 1943, as a result of medical experiments conducted by Dr. Mengele. She was 6 years old.

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1835006819028419039

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1834286564526227873

[Ravenlocke]

Text:
In 1943, Franceska Mann was brought to Auschwitz concentration camp. When she was ordered to undress, she did so in a provocative manner, which distracted the guards. In a bold act of defiance, she grabbed the roll call officer's gun and shot a Nazi guard named Josef Schillinger, killing him. She also managed to wound another guard before being killed herself.
https://x.com/Morbidful/status/1809005144765243428

[Ravenlocke]

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1882831770699313198

[Ravenlocke]

Text:
A racial education class for German girls in 1943.

It's ironic that the poster child of the ideal Aryan baby, used in Nazi propaganda, was actually a Jewish girl! 😆 just goes to show how absurd all those racial laws were.

Her name was Hessy Levinsons Taft and she won the most beautiful Aryan baby contest in 1935 ! lol . She survived the war and moved to the United States.


https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1927113540923486412

[Ravenlocke]

Each dot here marks the site of an Einsatzgruppen killing pit.

This is just between June 1941 to November 1942.

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1925280499557384224

[Ravenlocke]

Text:
On September 5, 1942 , the Kalevi-Liiva massacre commenced when a transport of approximately 1,500 Czechoslovak Jews arrived at Raasiku railway station in Estonia.

Originally destined for the Riga ghetto, the train was rerouted to Estonia due to overcrowding in Riga. Upon arrival, Nazi officials and Estonian collaborators conducted a selection process: about 450 individuals deemed fit for labor were sent to the nearby Jägala concentration camp, while the remaining were transported to the Kalevi-Liiva sand dunes and executed.

A few days later, a second transport carrying around 1,250 German Jews arrived. Similar selections were made, and those not chosen for labor were also taken to Kalevi-Liiva and killed. The executions were carried out by Estonian members of the Security Police under Nazi supervision, including Ain-Ervin Mere, Ralf Gerrets, and Jaan Viik.

In total, between 1,700 and 1,750 Jews were murdered at Kalevi-Liiva in September 1942, making it the largest mass shooting of Jews in Estonia during the Holocaust.

Ralf Gerrets and and Jaan Viik faced trial by the USSR in 1961 and executed for mass murder of Jews . Ain-Ervin Mere on the other hand retired in
Leicester , England and died a free man in 1969! 🫠 This is his picture below.

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1923315306380017953

[Ravenlocke]

Text:
Action T4: Considered dead weight in the war economy, the physically and mentally handicapped were described to the public as beings whose "life is not worth living." From 1939 to 1943, the Third Reich carried out a vast killing campaign against them. The so-called " #euthanasie " program

Uhttps://x.com/PGriselin/status/1927600116099108886

Text:
German children with down syndrome who were killed at Aktion T4 program.

https://x.com/ShoahUkraine/status/1921399578839916881

Text:
HolocaustMemorialDay is an important day for disability rights activists. Aktion T4 was the Nazis’ “euthanasia” (=murder) programme for children and adults with learning disabilities / mental health issues. More from my colleague
@CohenMarisa
at 1pm 👉 https://doughtystreet.co.uk/event/ho...t-memorial-day

https://x.com/DrOliverLewis/status/1354346140020465665