The Damage of Betrayal

[Michel Leclerc]

Posted by Johan (Keyholder) (here)
Onawah, I agree with what you describe above.

Personally I started studying (pathological) narcissism in the second half of the 1970's. In those days the term had not yet been introduced in the DSM.
But the behavior did exist of course; it was more in the hiding at that time.

There is a (good) book written by Jean Twenge in 2010: "The narcissism epidemic". She describes the evolution of this mind-virus.

In 2005 I had the idea to start a self-help group for victims/survivors of pathological narcissism. I followed a course on how to begin a self-help group. The result was that I found out that very few would come forward and admit they had been (or still were) victims of narcissistic abuse. There was a lot of shame and guilt involved (with the emotional abuse victims). The only way that it could have worked was by following a sort of AA-approach. Meetings where people could come to and remain anonymous. I considered it an almost impossible task to start from scratch and all by myself, so I did not pursue that venture.

@Michel ("I know there have been posts about "narcissistic" personalities. Most of the time, I find the advice superficial and naive. Also "narcissist" has become so fashionable that I tell myself "beware" whenever somebody in my surroundings calls a person "narcissistic".)

The posts here on the forum (about narcissism) are most of the time but not always, basic information. How useful it can be depends on the reader and his/her experiences. Nowadays there is SO much information that can be found on the subject that this alone becomes suspicious.

It is "fashionable". Yes, it is! But why? One (major) reason is that whenever a subject like this comes forward, it gets "hijacked" by people who are "in it", for the money alone. In recent years hundreds of books, articles, YT-video's, movies, etc... have been "produced" with the main aim to supply the makers with an income.
Or even worse: to get them them "the energy" they are looking for as emotional vampires.

This is not exclusive to narcissism. As you are Belgian, maybe you remember the case of Marcel Vervloesem? His case dates back more than 25 years ago. He was a self-declared "pedophile-hunter". But it became clear hae was one himself! When such people (and narcissists as well) look for "preys", it is the easiest way for them to look up places where such victims will gather, or can be found.

I know of a group that "claimed" the subject, and went to a Polish author (not well known), to get his book. It is about one particular form of narcissism. This "group" sort of "confiscated" the info and now makes money (and victims) based on it. This is just one example, there are more.

Once in a while there is someone who is open on the subject. Sam Vaknin is a self-declared pathological narcissist, but is also recognized as an "authority" on the subject (and with good reason I think). He is doing more "good" than "evil" this way in my opinion, just by giving out so much detailed information, which is certainly not naive or superficial (his book "Malignant Self Love" is a good informative book).

The best info and unbiased information can often been found in those people who have "lived" in a situation with narcissists. A few worth mentioning here:

Kathy Krajco "What makes narcissists tick" An experiential specialist on the subject, but she got killed eventually (some sources deny that though) by the narcissist. (I have a pdf which would fit well in the Avalon library)

A particular blog of a woman who has lived with a pathological narcissist and tells her story. Starting in 2009 and till 2017. Link to the first post:
https://survivingnarcissism.com/page/52/

Paul Levy and his books and articles on "wetiko". Website: https://www.awakeninthedream.com/

In general one can say that the "best" information comes from those who do not earn one penny/cent from it. The main problem is psychotherapists (and the like) jumping on the bandwagon and proclaiming they can "help" victims. Indeed, pathological narcissism is "fashionable" and can get them a good income! Often (not always) they "prey" on their clients, get money ànd narcissistic supply out of them. Discerning who is who is not a simple task.

So, I think it is a subject that demands a very careful approach.

Johan thank you for the ideas you bring up as well as the things Belgian.

I will make just three points on the subject and may then rest my case.

(1) as you appear to have professional experience in the field of psychology I would like to point out this: you will definitely know the “Oedipus complex” and the role it used to play in Freudian psychoanalysis – well, considering its status now which borders on that of a Freudian fraud if I may offer a too obvious pun – I think that the concept of Narcissism (as was the Oedipus complex) is in great need of being deconstructed and is probably already being so: it reeks too much of the kind of “synthetically easy” theoretical construct that was fashionable just before the explosion of WWI; to me it works as a rallying "meme" of the last fifty years just like Oedipus was fashionable among the intelligentia in roughly the twenties up to seventies: considering that, it hurts more than it helps;

(2) Vervloesem; may I just point out that the deep rottenness of certain areas of the Belgian police, juridical system and state security warrants extreme caution with assessing cases like this: the possibility of the incriminating evidence having been planted is real; that especially in the context of the sexual depravity and sex-tinged murder cases of the 90s and early XXIrst century, in which Belgians for an instant realised that they were living pampered in a kindergarten before re-plunging themselves into blissful ignorance;

(3) “a careful approach”: yes, of the humans who suffer, and especially if they suffer at the hands of psychotherapists who plaster their wounds shut; not at all of the people who entertain the "conceptual prison" professionally: there only the scalpel to the ulcer helps; as for those who suffer, I cannot count on my two hands the botched psychotherapies amongst friends, whereas genuine psychoanalyses (that have a chance of success) cost the price of a top-Tesla: most people think that their sanity is not worth a car.

[Strat]

Sorry this happened to you doug. Hopefully this isn't too off topic I just think the timing is interesting because I've been writing about this the past few days, the importance of choosing friends carefully. I've got lots of drinking buddies or people to 'shoot the ****' with but not a lot of true friends. This is by choice and my vetting process towards regarding someone as my friend is strict for lack of a better word.

Hopefully this doesn't effect your faith in humanity too much.

[thepainterdoug]

I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

[Delight]

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

IMO betrayal is about the worst emotional blow in life, IMO worse than a loss by death.
I have always said "What goes around comes around". IMO, we may have to face the "karma"? However, IMO we can change by way of learning the "results" and never repeat the mistake of OUR ACTIONS. Betrayals can seem small (like breaking promises) but have large reverberation.

Not able to completely avoid those who can PRETEND to be honest, sincere and kindly means we need to be ware. It is important to be self sufficient so we don't choose predators as we are desperate FOR their lures.

Predators don't feel the pain IMO. If you felt/understood how this felt NOW, you would not pass it on. There are people who have an uncanny shield so we cannot sense their true natures and IMO we will miss the signals that say "get out of their way". I had an experience where I sincerely did not know that a couple in my life were thieves. I trusted them. I actually FELT honesty as a vibe from them.

One of my neighbors borrowed a largish sum of money from other neighbors. This man also RADIATED a good will vibe of sincerity. Of course he never repaid the money. it turned out his crimes were WAY greater including selling his wife's parents house out from under them, identity theft of employees, mortgaging his mother's property and MORE. It is still hard to reconcile his persona and his behavior. He has no remorese apparently. Psychopaths have the ability to fool lie detectors and us.

"Wise as serpents and gentle as doves" is a mature position.

The bottom line IMo is also whatever is "taken" from us is easily restored when we are already full of substance by way of OUR relationship with the GOOD.

[SilentFeathers]

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not".

You may have "opened the door" by fronting this person money, but their actions of not fulfilling the agreed upon contract so to speak is 100% on them, regardless of their excuse.

By the sounds of it you seemed to be very flexible and would of been willing to renegotiate terms or reach some type of understanding with this person if they would of just been up front and communicated with you more.

Don't beat yourself up over it, like I said, at the end of the day it's on them (even though you lost money). Things have a weird way of working themselves out.

I've been through this a few times; Several years ago I loaned a guy several hundred dollars (for a set period of time) and he never paid me back. He was in a really bad place at the time and I never really hounded him about it much, but I did ask him about it a few times over a period of several months. I ended up finally just writing it off as a loss and moved on. Several years later he contacted me and said he had the money and wanted to pay me back. I thanked him for not forgetting about me and made another deal with him. I told him I would forgive the debt if he found someone that was in the same situation he was in when I loaned him the money and just give the money to them as a gift, pay it forward so to speak. A few weeks later he contacted me and told me what he did with the money and told me all about the person he gave it too, and then thanked me. I wasn't sure if he'd actually follow thru with this but the sound in his voice assured me that he did.

Something told me him owing me this money weighed heavy on his mind, probably for years, and I never forgot about it either. I think where this money ended up was a good thing for the both of us and the person that ended up with it got some very needed help at the time and never has to worry about paying it back.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not".

Me too — absolutely. It could equally well be revenge on his part for something ethical that you (Doug) did to him in a previous life encounter, such as (e.g.) making sure he was locked up for a crime.

[Satori]

What if you are over thinking this…? Roll with the punches. Be strong. Bend, but don’t break. It is what it is…. Live and learn.

[Arcturian108]

Doug,
I recently had a shocking interaction with a malignant narcissist, so I have a few things to share about this. In my case, my husband and I had rented a second house on our property to a woman who presented herself as competent, running an international business, having raised four grown children, and was just looking to move from a noisy beachside community to the quiet of the mountains. She said she loved our property and everything she heard about us, my angelic work, my hobbies. When she moved in, she had requested that we make room for her furniture to replace much of what we had in the house. She only did this a little bit at a time. After a month of good feelings and meeting several of her close relatives, including her mother, brother and grandchildren; one day she stopped the pretense, and just showed us her true colors, told us to get our "junk" out of the garage so she could park her $194,000 Range Rover under cover. From that point, we became her enemies, and every bill to be paid was a fight, and anytime we came close to that house, she called the police. I had to hire a lawyer since I assumed that she intended to squat on our property, and we now have two criminal court cases against her involving simple assaults. Thankfully, we only had given her a six-month lease, and when I started to fight back, her lawyer must have told her to vacate on time, as she left the day the lease expired.
The reason I know that this experience was destined is that three weeks after she left, a driver I hired to take me to the airport, wanted to hear all about the experience, and when I told her that this woman lived at 384 Valley Street in nearby Georgia, the driver told me that she lived right next door to 'miss toxic', an almost impossible coincidence in an area that has about 50,000 homeowners.
Now, with all my psychic abilities, how did I not see this evil in advance? I even had another spiritual teacher check her out before she moved in and he didn't see any issues either. I now believe my guides and angels were making me and my husband aware of a threat we never perceived before. And also the dark side always looks for chinks in one's armor. It doesn't have to be karmic to be an important life lesson. If you are doing a lot of good in the world, which Doug you likely are, then the dark side wants you to stop.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

@Michel. Thanks for your wellthought reply above.

And no, I do not have a professional background in psychology. But I do have 50 years of practical experiences in that field (I can understand how you compare it with the fraud-ian Oedipus complex (I do think Freud caused a lot of harm though, CG Jung and Viktor Frankl for instance did do a lot of "good" in my opinion, but that is just my peronal idea)).

On Vervloesem - your answer in point 2) - I fully agree with you. I have lost years because of it (the "system") and I know more about the "deep rottenness" you mentioned than I care to explain.

Good psychotherapists are very few and very far in between. Yet I would never advise anyone any type of "psychoanalysis". No doubt you know a few you believe in, no matter what they cost. I don't.

[thepainterdoug]

Acturian/ thats certainly chilling. Im glad you rid yourself of that parasite. although my event had about a 5-7 years lifespan, his true colors didnt rise until i fronted him money late last year. so in the end I wasnt hurt property or financially a great deal. but my disbelief in the matter has shaken me. I just didnt see it, and truly dont understand the upside for him.
your scenario would have driven me crazy and thank god it ended for you.

SATORI/ in the end thats where its at for me. Live and learn, or should i say LIVE AND EXPERIENCE, cause im not really sure I learned anything

[Denise/Dizi]

I have had this happen to me multiple times... And you would think I would have learned... But the final straw was when a gal did it to the family business, and for a menial amount of money.... We took apart a piece of jewelry for her, made another ring, and added her stones. She came back in, paid a small amount, and said she would be back later to pay the rest.

This younger gal worked in a real estate office, in a very small town, and worked merely a few doors down from our shop. She asked if she cou,d wear the ring while she made payents, and you guess it, she never paid any more. After months of never seeing her again, we would call. No answer, but of course the business line would show on her phone. So I called from my cell phone, and she answered suggesting things have been crazy and she would be up soon to take care of it.. She never did, nor did she reply to any further calls..

I never went into her place of business, assuming she most likely didn't work there anymore... And unlike her crude behavior I didn't want to take drama into a business who wasn't responsible for her personal behavior.

But then another situation happened. A couple was to wed and ordered two custom rings... we made them, and they didn't marry. The deal was they were each to pay for the others ring... I called him, I called her... She never replied, but surprisingly he did! He explained he worked out of town, and their failed relationship shouldn't become our expense.. He stated he would come into the shop the next time he was in town, and pay for his ring.. And he explained he worked out of town for months at a time...

One day while minding my own business, this very nice looking young man walked up to the counter, and told me his name and that he was here to fulfill his promise... He bought his own ring.. He claimed as he handed over the money, "I will wear it as the nicest pinky ring in town"... Said it wasn't our fault their relationship failed, smiled and walked out... I was astonished... And happy to meet this young man who knew what integrity and honoring his word meant... If my granddaughter were a little bit older, I would have prompted her to meet this young man. He was a very descent man.

As far as his other half? We just put her ring on the shelf, as it was never worn and we made it.. But I felt that their relationship had to have failed as a result of her, no promise was kept to us, nor to the young gentlemen who did honor his obligation. I was happy he escaped her.

The third and last time someone tried to "Stiff" the shop, I was able to prove this woman was doing it, and she had to pay... She bought a necklace in person, went home and cancelled the charges. Fortunately for us, our store policy requires a return of the merchandise, and she never made any attempt to do so... She wanted the jewelry without paying for it... When she denied the claim, the credit card company wanted proof she tried to mail it back and we "refused it upon receipt", which she could not prove, as she never tried to give us back the jewelry, she just lied hoping they would believe her and let her have it for free...

The Credit card company reversed the charges again, and paid us for her attempted theft.

So there are times when the good intentions win over, the dishonest are caught, and the one that "Gets Away" really doesn't get away with much, besides a soiled reputation... and in a very small town.

On a more personal note, I have had people take advantage of my kindness, so my new way of managing myself is to make sure to never extend anything I am not willing to lose... Unless it is due and payable.. Ever. Those with integrity expect it, and those who would have liked to have taken advantage of me, say nothing, as it would reveal their intentions... It works for me and I don't have to then go through the hurt of betrayal...

I am sorry you trusted someone who let you down... Honorable individuals seems to be a dying trait in the world, and parasitic behaviors tend to be on the rise sadly. Even those that make youtube videos that do nothing but profit off of them bashing the character of another seem parasitic to me... Sure one video to make everyone aware but when the meat of their content is continuous bashing of one individual, well that to me is no better than the behaviors they are bashing..

Humanity is spiraling into a sad state if you ask me. Fortunately there are still many left with integrity..

I miss those who meant something when they made a deal... They're few and far in between these days.

[Mike]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not".

Me too — absolutely. It could equally well be revenge on his part for something ethical that you (Doug) did to him in a previous life encounter, such as (e.g.) making sure he was locked up for a crime.

That's a very interesting idea. I hadn't ever thought of it quite that way.

Doug, if many of these NDE testimonies are to be believed, we actually agree ahead of time to play the heroes and the villains in each other's lives before we arrive here on earth. Looked upon this way, perhaps your friend was actually acting compassionately.

That's likely an unsatisfactory excuse for you, and I can't blame you for that. I always have mixed feelings when I hear someone say this type of thing. It suggests we have no agency and therefore no personal responsibility. That's unacceptable to me, so I've made peace with the idea by assuming we do have agency most of the time but occasionally volunteer to perform in predetermined acts of fate.

Anyway, coming back down to earth now...
We have no way of knowing if an act is karmic in nature or predetermined in some way, so I think the appropriate way to deal with it is to assume betrayal and act accordingly by processing the disappointment (like you are now) and moving forward not with a cynical approach but with a slightly more cautious one. Fronting money is always a dicey affair.

[jaybee]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by SilentFeathers (here)

Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not".

Me too — absolutely. It could equally well be revenge on his part for something ethical that you (Doug) did to him in a previous life encounter, such as (e.g.) making sure he was locked up for a crime.

I've recently seen somewhere, but can't remember where - that with reincarnation it doesn't always mean that someone has done the same thing to someone else and got the same karma..... but a person could volunteer to take a neutral role to assist the 'betrayer' (or whatever) with a testing situation - to help them and give them a chance to do something differently....

???

[Michel Leclerc]

I would like to thank you all for your contributions to the insight I have in myself. I would like to make one point – essential to me – and to its consequences.

I am, in this life, responsible for my sins – and only for my sins in this life.

***

Sins: the entire Mount Everest of de-responsibilisation statements mainly coming from what the “West” calls ‘the East” (karma; advaita; yin, but yang, and yang, but yin; “there is no good nor bad’;…; “compassion”) is intellectually interesting –- maybe (!) interesting; frequently I feel just boredom when encountering their latest instance and instalment –- but does not explain (away) my grief at the wrongs I commit. Grief meaning bitter tears. Wrongs meaning even the smallest wrong to a non-human earth denizen.

Calling a sin a mistake is the greatest cheating of it all. It robs me of my tears. It is psychotic in its core. (Locking the “safe” then throwing the key in the canal.)

The late nineteenth century started that. They did not want to read Kierkegaard. They misunderstood Nietzsche. So they transformed humans’ task (naming Eden’s animals and gardening it) into Technology; AI now; Artificial Souls quite soon. Of course, they cannot and they do not; but they have plotted nonetheless.

May I never stop being able to drink from the wellspring of my tears.

I drink and I go to the being (human; animal; plant) that I have wronged. That is my only responsibility. To un-sin my sins. (Look up the source of the word sin..).

Jesus was somehow entitled to ask his “Father” to forgive what they were doing to him – because he was himself without sin. (Or if we do not like the Christian reading of what happened: he was with lesser sins than his contemporaries.) But we are not – even we bear more sins than many of our contemporary beings.

Forgiving ourselves is not what is required of us (that is God’s, Allah’s, job). Higher beings can forgive us, because they are tasked with that. We can only ask for forgiveness. (And accept it when we are not forgiven.) And we can forgive those who ask us to forgive them.

When they ask us for forgiveness they know that they have wronged us. Maybe we are even surprised because we did not know that they wronged us. So we can thank them that they trust, or hope, us to forgive them. Forgiveness brings more tears to drink.

When we do not know we have wronged a being, we cannot ask for forgiveness. We are not responsible for the sins we do not know we have committed in this life. But we are responsible for asking ourselves whether we have sinned.

Thus we are responsible for asking other beings whether we have wronged them – and then asking them to forgive us.

***

Both may ask whether; ask for; forgive. Both may drink from the wellspring of their tears. Both forgive each other. Discovering – that both wellsprings belong to the same source.

***

We can seek, in this world, companions who feel like us, with whom we have no “outstanding sins” to each other to be asked to forgive or to forgive, who drink tears from the same source. Who are our brothers and sisters, sharing our responsibility.

[grapevine]

It's always upsetting to feel mugged over by anybody, let alone a close friend, so that's a double whammy. Families fall out over similar scenarios, friends who share rent and help themselves to another's food, all very similar situations and born out of taking someone or something for granted.

So on a purely practical level Doug (and once bitten twice shy), any time money's involved, just set out an agreement of terms covering expectations, ie delivery time, the fee and anything else. This is helpful and fair for. both sides. Things can still go wrong of course but it keeps things tighter and is more of an informal business arrangement, which needn't and shouldn't affect the relationship at all.

It sounds as though the relationship's gone sour but will you (try and) get your money back?

[thepainterdoug]

Mike so true, and I am coming back down. Airing this out to this great group has helped me. I took the EST seminars in the 70ies. Werner always said, you need to speak something to make it real. I spoke this to the group and much has sprang ( or sprung if you choose) forward.

Michel, thanks again, its a mind blowing Idea that any of this, any of asking for forgiveness ?, from who? that a who ?,even exists, and that a who even needs to set this thing up as it is or as we believe it is. Yet I cannot think of another way to frame the game?? Not by the earthly language we have created to explain it. Of what use would it be to to not have opposites, good and evil, love and hate. Both need each other

Perfect bliss all the time? yuk. this reminds me of an experience/ will be brief/

I was on an Island off Belize, what we would all call "paradise" from our general worlds. And every morning I would see this Island guy, sitting at a table on the beach watching the sun rise with his head down , in agony of being stuck on this island, cant get off, no money, no whatever. Stuck in what others came to and paid for.. Stuck in paradise.

I have always been nervous about paradise, I have always shunned opulence, large mansions , all of life's trimmings etc. I need a carrot and stick out in front of me at all times. Thats why I am an artist, a song writer and so on. i am never satisfied

blessing all, keep doing gods work. yeah you know what that is.

Oh, Grapevine. no he can keep it, like Judas keeping the silver coins.