Are we a one-marshmallow species?

[Bill Ryan]

The thread title refers to the very interesting Marshmallow Experiments conducted by Dr. Walter Mischel at Stanford University in 1970-72.

The experimental protocol was simple, and has become well-known and widely discussed. Children were offered a marshmallow as a free treat, with no strings attached. But they were also told that it they waited a period of time, they could then receive TWO marshmallows.

And of course some waited, but many didn't.

It was all about human drives for instant gratification. Do we jump in straight away to satisfy our immediate wants, needs, or feelings, or do we exercise discipline, understanding, control, and restraint, which when wisely invested, lead to a more beneficial outcome?

This question has the widest-ranging applications. Dopamine addiction in social media is an obvious one. Putting one's own life at risk to save a colleague or loved one is one more. Refusing to retaliate when provoked in a fight (or in warfare!) is yet another.

Smartphones, online gaming, advertising, media propaganda, fast food, many drugs (often including alcohol and nicotine), and socially-engineered behavior influencing of every kind, all seem to take advantage of our instinctive desire to get the one marshmallow RIGHT NOW. And all non-human animals, as best I know, always go for the instant-gratification food reward.

Are humans essentially different? Are restraint, reflection and contemplation spiritual virtues which other mammals don't have? Does the human race collectively have those virtues now, in 2025?

[Ewan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

And all non-human animals, as best I know, always go for the instant-gratification food reward.

Are humans essentially different? Are restraint, reflection and contemplation spiritual virtues which other mammals don't have? Does the human race collectively have those virtues now, in 2025?

I believe I saw a film about crows, or rooks maybe, that demonstrated remarkable learning abilities and the use of patience.

The older and wiser of us certainly understand restraint, reflection and contemplation (of) spiritual values. However it is currently being wiped from the human psyche at an alarming speed.

[JackMcThorn]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Does the human race collectively have those virtues now, in 2025?

The brush is too broad but I say no the human race collectively does not. But I am mostly speaking from the perspective of a westerner and cannot speak for other regions. I think in India, one will find ample patience. The West, not so much and it is not only bound by culture, but by generation.

I think Millennials and Gen-Z have little to no patience whatsoever. But that could change as they get older. I think I had less patience as a young adult and grew more as I got older. I have a general personal rule of thumb to wait weeks or months! before making a decision with little to no time demand to see if any new information presents. This policy generally saves me some trouble over the long-term.

My boomer parents - very patient. Their parents, even more so. But their resources were more limited during those times so a virtue it was indeed.

It is too hard to measure the 'human race'. It would have to be a utopian collective of no more wars, no more money, no more crime, or dedicated to a lifetime of study or dedication to the service of others and humanity is no where near these types of ideals whatsoever. Not in my lifetime, perhaps not in my dear daughter's lifetime, not even 1oo years from now. While the world changes around us, I find people are generally the constant in their behavior. This means overall conduct not including the personal growth and change a person may or may not go through over a lifetime, but rather the collective doldrums of the pace of humanity as a global unit. If you contrast an argument between two people vs. an argument between nations, there really is no difference especially with violence being an option. I cannot see a unified global collective of humanity in any of our futures. This includes a patient humanity.

[rgray222]

Yes, I think humans are essentially different from other mammals because they "generally" demonstrate a higher capacity for self-control. They also have the ability to think "into" the future. There is an assault on restraint, spiritualism and altruism, and it is coming mostly from technology. One of the primary goals of technology is instant gratification. I truly believe that we are starting to lose the human connection. This is evident by the number of people with their noses stuck into their phones for hours on end. This is only going to get much worse as we begin to figure out all the wonderful and horrible things that are coming our way from artificial intelligence. This is a good thing because it will essentially destroy our old world so that we can live in the new high-speed, instant technological world. It's coming, and no one will be able to avoid it. In this new world, we will understand that humanity possesses the capacity to cultivate, understand and act on these virtues in a landscape driven by instant gratification. In this new world, human connection will not just be a luxury; it will be necessary for our survival.

My thoughts on the study are that the results of the study would correlate closely with the IQs of the children being tested. Those with extremely low or high IQs would be prone to waiting and delaying gratification. The high IQ children would comprehend that delaying gratification will bring greater results, and the low IQ children would simply do what he/she is being told. Many but not all of those children of average IQ might grasp the concept of delayed gratification, but they simply would not care. I'm describing today's politicians (lol)

Of course, in today's world, where they are using empathic emotion to destroy society, they would either skew the results or confuse the results so that no child is less intelligent than the rest.

[thepainterdoug]

I think its experience more that IQ that matters here, although they could correlate and mean the same thing.
My feeling is , the older I get, the more scenarios I have seen pass by in front of me , the more I can better evaluate these choices and their consequences.

[lunaflare]

I was thinking about how animals stockpile food for winter. This behavior reflects a certain level of forethought and planning.

https://www.treehugger.com/animals-s...winter-4868539

If we are inherently wired to seek meaning in life, it seems we are also wired for addiction—whether it's to media, thoughts, food, pharmaceuticals, caffeine, and so on. We are easily targeted in that regard.

[Bluegreen]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Are restraint, reflection and contemplation spiritual virtues which other mammals don't have? Does the human race collectively have those virtues now, in 2025?

No. Greed has taken over my planet.

[thepainterdoug]

Bluegreen, NO! Its my planet!

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Are humans essentially different? Are restraint, reflection and contemplation spiritual virtues which other mammals don't have? Does the human race collectively have those virtues now, in 2025?

In my opinion, and putting it simply, the monkey-brain rules the human animal in almost every aspect of life, suppressing higher consciousness, the real I AM, or the real 'us'. We still have virtues, of course, and we can still exercise restraint, but these are mere echoes of the deeper (higher) self. In the current 'downgraded version' of humanity (post-Atlantean) consciousness is ruled by the id. We are thus strongly egocentric, or urge-centric. One could say 'enlightenment' is the process/goal of transcending this base human instinct, and to bring in higher awareness. We're not very good at doing that, especially here in the West.

[syrwong]

A funny true story that might spoil the marshmallow theory—though I don’t really disagree with Bill.

When I was a maths postgraduate student, a course mate visited my office and picked up a book of Chinese idioms. He read this story:

An old man trained some monkeys. He first gave them four walnuts in the morning and three in the afternoon.
Then he proposed changing it to three in the morning and four in the afternoon.
The monkeys protested, so he kept the original plan.
The moral: the monkeys were stupid—they still got seven walnuts a day.

My friend put the book down and said, “Actually, the monkeys were very smart.” He explained:

In the first semester, the tutoring administrator gave him two tutorials. Later she asked him to give one to another tutor, promising that in the second semester he would get two tutorials instead of the usual one. He needed the money badly, but agreed—but in the second semester, the extra tutorial never came.

“So you see,” he said, “the monkeys were right to insist on four walnuts in the morning. Why trust a promise about four in the afternoon?”

(AI assisted for fluency)

[Sue (Ayt)]

Posted by syrwong (here)

“So you see,” he said, “the monkeys were right to insist on four walnuts in the morning. Why trust a promise about four in the afternoon?”

(AI assisted for fluency)

Hmmm, so maybe delayed gratification reflects the level of trust nurtured or betrayed throughout the individual's lifetime.
I never thought of it that way.
Thanks syrwong.

[syrwong]

Posted by Sue (Ayt) (here)

Posted by syrwong (here)

“So you see,” he said, “the monkeys were right to insist on four walnuts in the morning. Why trust a promise about four in the afternoon?”

(AI assisted for fluency)

Hmmm, so maybe delayed gratification reflects the level of trust nurtured or betrayed throughout the individual's lifetime.
I never thought of it that way.
Thanks syrwong.

The marshmellow behavior may also be the product of this "endtime", that anything a little far in the future cannot be trusted. This is reflected in short attention span and also the fact that the young people cannot see the future. The authorities cannot be trusted for their promises too. Example: A two weeks endurance of covid restrictions turned out to be 3 years.

[Ernie Nemeth]

From a movie I can't remember which, cleaned up for prime time...

Two bulls standing at the top of a hill, looking down the valley at a herd of cows:

The young bull says' "Let's run down there and have our way with one of the cows!"

The old bull replies, "No, no, my son. Let's walk down there and have our way with all of them."

[Johnnycomelately]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
The thread title refers to the very interesting Marshmallow Experiments conducted by Dr. Walter Mischel at Stanford University in 1970-72.

The experimental protocol was simple, and has become well-known and widely discussed. Children were offered a marshmallow as a free treat, with no strings attached. But they were also told that it they waited a period of time, they could then receive TWO marshmallows.

And of course some waited, but many didn't.

It was all about human drives for instant gratification. Do we jump in straight away to satisfy our immediate wants, needs, or feelings, or do we exercise discipline, understanding, control, and restraint, which when wisely invested, lead to a more beneficial outcome?

This question has the widest-ranging applications. Dopamine addiction in social media is an obvious one. Putting one's own life at risk to save a colleague or loved one is one more. Refusing to retaliate when provoked in a fight (or in warfare!) is yet another.

Smartphones, online gaming, advertising, media propaganda, fast food, many drugs (often including alcohol and nicotine), and socially-engineered behavior influencing of every kind, all seem to take advantage of our instinctive desire to get the one marshmallow RIGHT NOW. And all non-human animals, as best I know, always go for the instant-gratification food reward.

Are humans essentially different? Are restraint, reflection and contemplation spiritual virtues which other mammals don't have? Does the human race collectively have those virtues now, in 2025?

Hi Bill. I understand your question, and I like it. Although, with the modifier “collectively”, it seems clear that you presuppose no.

But I chuckle at the starting point of Marshmallow Experiments conducted by Dr. Walter Mischel. I have a few comments to make, in good humour, just some ~debating club debrief type of banter.

1. At first I wondered if the title question was a euphemism for “Are we all just children?”, in a derogatory sense, since the subjects of the experiment were children. I do think that we humans are best described as children, distinct from the critters by the addition of several spiritual functions/qualities/attributes, like you popped in there. But in this competitive world, nobody likes being called a child.

2. This point is entirely on Dr. Mischel, for the (imo) faulty structure of his experiment. Marshmallows come in bags of many. A single marshmallow is not much of a reward. Maybe those kids were smart enough to weigh the proffered reward of one additional marshmallow, against an unknown time of waiting for that. Kids be busy, they get/do more life-per-unit-time than us older “reasonable persons”.

3. No point #3 about marshmallows, except maybe why was the option of toasting the delayed marshmallow not proposed? THAT might swing my inner child vote, being much more special, depending on my kid-day plans.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Johnnycomelately (here)
Hi Bill. I understand your question, and I like it. Although, with the modifier “collectively”, it seems clear that you presuppose no.

Yes, absolutely.

There's a relatively small percentage of highly enlightened and aware humans, of course, some of them well-known and doing their utmost to assist us all. But everything I feel I'm currently aware of tells me they're fighting a losing battle.

The 'human collective', fueled by propaganda, social media addiction, lack of genuine education, and weakened by every manner of intervention from Big Medicine, Big Pharma and Big Food, is so far off any healthy natural pathway that I'm not sure now if there's any way back apart from some titanic societal catastrophe that just might somehow reset everything.

[Tintin]

Posted by lunaflare (here)
I was thinking about how animals stockpile food for winter. This behavior reflects a certain level of forethought and planning.

Interestingly, bears, in preparation for hibernation, make their way through a veritable ton, figuratively speaking, of sock-eyed salmon....