Propaganda Awareness: Are You a Victim or a Contributor?

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Mike (here)
I won't troll you Bill for saying some good things about China. If i did troll you it would be for writing a world record 100000000 pro China posts consecutively with virtually no criticism at all. It's gotten a little strange, and I'm a little worried for you (if Bojancan is holding you hostage, blink twice!). I suspect Natalie will be along to give you a hard time too lol

Made me laugh! But I wonder if we should also count the anti-China posts??

[sdv]

Propaganda is information, often biased or misleading, used to influence the opinions, emotions, and actions of a group to support a particular cause or agenda. It can involve exaggerating facts, telling half-truths, or spreading rumors to persuade people, often by appealing to their emotions or fears rather than reason. (AI definition)

Is not persuasion an important tool of propaganda?

I gave the example of The Electronic Intifada being propaganda, but not using lies, exaggeration, half-truths, rumours and so on to do so. Israel blatantly uses lies in its propaganda. However, both are engaged in propaganda because both are trying to persuade an audience to support them, but propaganda does not have to be biased or misleading or use any of the dark arts. All advertising is propaganda, even that which focuses on the merits of the product and thus does not use the dark arts of persuasion. I mention advertising because it is so pervasive ...
screaming at people to buy, buy, buy, 24/7!

[Mike]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I won't troll you Bill for saying some good things about China. If i did troll you it would be for writing a world record 100000000 pro China posts consecutively with virtually no criticism at all. It's gotten a little strange, and I'm a little worried for you (if Bojancan is holding you hostage, blink twice!). I suspect Natalie will be along to give you a hard time too lol

Made me laugh! But I wonder if we should also count the anti-China posts??

That's fair

Richard explained this really well: none of us are above a little propaganda if we feel it serves the greater good in some way (and we always feel our POV serves the greater good). Of course I'm including myself in this too. This doesn't necessarily involve lying either (not all propaganda is just flat out lying); sometimes it just means highlighting or prioritizing one perceived good thing over another percieved bad thing, and strategically timing it to emphasize a point.

None of us are exclusively truth tellers. Human beings communicate thru narrative, which is a hodgepodge of truth and emotion, bias and objective reality (propaganda, basically).There's a delicate balance involved here, and it becomes a serious problem when emotion and bias begin seriously overwhelming truth and objective reality. And that's what's happening now in the world. Truth has been slowly phased out and now we're just almost exclusively emotional story tellers. It's dangerous.

I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much! I imagine you feel it's narrative shaping to serve a greater good. And I suppose the same could be said for the anti China crowd. There's a push and pull from each side with the goal of arriving at the sweet spot(narratively speaking) we''re all jockeying for. It's something like that.

[Mike]

Posted by sdv (here)
Propaganda is information, often biased or misleading, used to influence the opinions, emotions, and actions of a group to support a particular cause or agenda. It can involve exaggerating facts, telling half-truths, or spreading rumors to persuade people, often by appealing to their emotions or fears rather than reason. (AI definition)

Is not persuasion an important tool of propaganda?

I gave the example of The Electronic Intifada being propaganda, but not using lies, exaggeration, half-truths, rumours and so on to do so. Israel blatantly uses lies in its propaganda. However, both are engaged in propaganda because both are trying to persuade an audience to support them, but propaganda does not have to be biased or misleading or use any of the dark arts. All advertising is propaganda, even that which focuses on the merits of the product and thus does not use the dark arts of persuasion. I mention advertising because it is so pervasive ...
screaming at people to buy, buy, buy, 24/7!

A better example would be insisting that the widespread slaughter of Afrikaner farmers in South Africa isn't a racial issue.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Mike (here)
I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much!

I'm actually agnostic about China. I don't 'like' it, but I don't 'dislike' it either. I've spent time in Africa, India and Russia (and currently live in South America), but I've never visited China at all, and have no friends there.

I've tried to ask honest questions about China on the forum — because I genuinely want to know more. But each time the thread gets overwhelmed with Anti-China posts, expressing strong opinions that come only from a handful of Anti-China YouTube channels and not from any personal experience.

I've almost given up trying to use the forum as a source of good information about this, the one and only issue about which I suspect Avalon's apparent consensus may be unreliable. In the absence of good forum information, my default is to prefer to lean to trust videos like the one I shared above, together with other first-hand sources like Pepe Escobar, Carl Zha, Brian Berletic, Jeffrey Sachs, and Alex Krainer.

[rgray222]

Posted by shaberon (here)
I've said it many times, I am a vessel of propaganda, understood as:


to cause a shift of reputation.

You could perhaps also call it a transfer of value.
https://en.mehrnews.com/

It has nothing to do with argumentative techniques such as factual content or emotional appeal. That, perhaps, summarizes most writing styles, which I at least would assign negative value.

That leaves me negativized towards almost everything you can think of.

The remark about Electronic Intifada is close to what I mean. Someone like that will get my attention and support. The alternatives are wasting their time.

Your short post is so loaded with nuanced info that I am not sure what to say, but I feel compelled to say something.

First off, thanks for your honesty about being a vessel of propaganda.
You have never made it a secret, particularly about Israel. I do understand your strong feelings on the issue, but I feel that you step over the line on occasion. I make that statement with no emotion, just as an honest observation.

I, too, feel a burning desire to cause a shift in reputation or perhaps you could also call it a transfer of value, but my mission is to awaken people to the need to end conflict, end war, and engage in diplomacy, which will create a culture of peace. I have no misgivings whatsoever that people will think that my efforts are foolish or even quixotic, but small actions by one or a few are how it will start. Bringing your intellect in line with this undertaking will forever remove that negativity from everything you think of. We must memoralized medicine, math, true science, and create a legacy of non-aggression. Denying, preventing or even discouraging this change from happening is nothing less than a wasted life.

[Mike]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much!

I'm actually agnostic about China. I don't 'like' it, but I don't 'dislike' it either. I've spent time in Africa, India and Russia (and currently live in South America), but I've never visited China at all, and have no friends there.

I've tried to ask honest questions about China on the forum — because I genuinely want to know more. But each time the thread gets overwhelmed with Anti-China posts, expressing strong opinions that come only from a handful of Anti-China YouTube channels and not from any personal experience.

I've almost given up trying to use the forum as a source of good information about this, the one and only issue about which I suspect Avalon's apparent consensus may be unreliable. In the absence of good forum information, my default is to prefer to lean to trust videos like the one I shared above, together with other first-hand sources like Pepe Escobar, Carl Zha, Brian Berletic, Jeffrey Sachs, and Alex Krainer.

I hear you. I'd like to know more about China too. I often wish I could just pause time and catch up on all the reading I'd like to catch up on, and then hit the 'play' button on life and move forward totally informed. At the moment I'm reading about the middle east, and wincing at the realization that I actually knew far less than I even assumed I did.

Next I'll gonna catch up on American history. And then China. In other words, I'll be prepared to have this conversation in about 2 years lol

For my part, I'm sure I've let my hyper vigilance towards communism make me too emotionally reactionary towards some China stuff here. I've never had any animosity towards the Chinese people or anything like that. It's strictly ideological.

[Raskolnikov]

Would you guys consider social media to be another form of propaganda? The largest, most commonly used like Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc., have become monsters of public persuasion. These platforms feel anything but organic nowadays often heavily censored and pushing a specific political narrative.

I worked a Facebook release party in SF when FB first appeared on the scene and could not believe the amount of money they had almost immediately after hitting the internet. My spidey senses went into overdrive as I sensed something wasn’t right about this company, too big, too fast, what’s behind it? Back then I was highly suspicious of all monster corporations but hadn’t quite awakened yet to see the big picture.

Some years later I enjoyed using FB to reconnect with old friends. But that initial more innocent aspect of social media seems to have morphed and degenerated and instead of reconnecting friends these sites seem to be severing friendships and driving people, even families, apart. I understand this to be a consequence of today’s polarized political divide but is social media simply another arm of the propaganda machine?

Maybe a little off topic but I’m curious what others think. I know many of you utilize X because it promotes a more free speech environment, so where do these sites fall on the propaganda spectrum?

[thepainterdoug]

I was thinking on this today. hypothetical / two strangers meet at a bar. One says, can you believe whats going on out there? the other perks up and says, yeah man, I know, its insane..
the other replies, what has happened to this world? where is common sense, the rule of law? shouldn't this be obvious to both sides? The other says, tell me about it. What is so hard to get? Its common sense. I cannot believe how brainwashed people are? Its insane! There is no reaching them. The other replies, I know it is all ego, all team and tribe and all brainwashing. Its all so obvious yet no one can come to any agreement on it.

The one says ,well I sure hope Trump and republicans can fix this in time. The other says OMG ! you like trump??? !!!

take it from there.

[Mike]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I have little love for China, after witnessing what the mainland Chinese have done to the real estate (and fentanyl) market in Canada. Corrupt officials in the provincial governments and the federal government turned their back on the problems and told us we were "racist" when we complained.

But here's the thing, and it's confusing. I don't know if the Chinese government, under Xi, is at all responsible. It might be quite the contrary. At least some of the mainland Chinese who lied their way into Canada, were trying to escape legal prosecution in China and Trudeau refused to repatriate them, when Xi requested their return. Why? Because they faced the death penalty if they were sent back. So, who is to blame? I don't hate Trudeau either (though he's a goofball)

Anyway, the Chinese are ruthless businessmen and women. Their energy is breathtaking and they brains to burn. I don't doubt that, as long as they are able to keep corruption at a manageable level, they will totally displace Europe and America as modern powerhouses.

The US, MIKE, has run an experiment in hypocrisy, more than anything else. They have always had a fascist undercurrent that was foisted on the world through gruesome wars and torture of civilians and labor organizers in South America (for example) With Trump, you're seeing that will to power, (rather than fairness and the rule of law) come home. I'll describe, in another thread, modern slavery in the US; surveillance, sweat shops (literally Amazon fulfillment centers, speaking of sweat) and censorship. Authoritarianism? Too many current examples to cite here.

Very few people, very few Americans consider the US a democratic republic, at this time.

Jess my argument has never been one that denied there's any corruption or tyranny or hypocrisy or authoritarianism in the U.S. (and the west in general). My argument has been that there's far less of it here than anywhere else in the world, so this weird self-hating oikophobia makes little sense to me. It's largely socially engineered as far as I can tell; it's like "woke" for adults.

My issue with your analysis is not that it offers criticism, it's that it's exclusively criticism. It's cynical and uninformed. The appropriate attitude towards the west and the US in particular should be one of immense gratitude, all things considered. It's an argument I'll have a very easy time making if you ever start that thread, but I don't think you'll start it

[AutumnW]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much!

I'm actually agnostic about China. I don't 'like' it, but I don't 'dislike' it either. I've spent time in Africa, India and Russia (and currently live in South America), but I've never visited China at all, and have no friends there.

I've tried to ask honest questions about China on the forum — because I genuinely want to know more. But each time the thread gets overwhelmed with Anti-China posts, expressing strong opinions that come only from a handful of Anti-China YouTube channels and not from any personal experience.

I've almost given up trying to use the forum as a source of good information about this, the one and only issue about which I suspect Avalon's apparent consensus may be unreliable. In the absence of good forum information, my default is to prefer to lean to trust videos like the one I shared above, together with other first-hand sources like Pepe Escobar, Carl Zha, Brian Berletic, Jeffrey Sachs, and Alex Krainer.

Same. I found it increasingly disturbing trying to get to the reality beneath many PA forum personalities pet hates and fears. It seems to be exiting its dark age, to a degree now.

The whole "woke" issue is a case in point. The extremes of both sides are slamming into each other, crushing the majority of trans people, who prefer to lead a quiet unassuming life, in the middle. Propagandists on this issue and others, China included, like to hold up the most bizarre features of a sub culture, or national culture as common to the larger culture. It's not fair.

[AutumnW]

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I have little love for China, after witnessing what the mainland Chinese have done to the real estate (and fentanyl) market in Canada. Corrupt officials in the provincial governments and the federal government turned their back on the problems and told us we were "racist" when we complained.

But here's the thing, and it's confusing. I don't know if the Chinese government, under Xi, is at all responsible. It might be quite the contrary. At least some of the mainland Chinese who lied their way into Canada, were trying to escape legal prosecution in China and Trudeau refused to repatriate them, when Xi requested their return. Why? Because they faced the death penalty if they were sent back. So, who is to blame? I don't hate Trudeau either (though he's a goofball)

Anyway, the Chinese are ruthless businessmen and women. Their energy is breathtaking and they brains to burn. I don't doubt that, as long as they are able to keep corruption at a manageable level, they will totally displace Europe and America as modern powerhouses.

The US, MIKE, has run an experiment in hypocrisy, more than anything else. They have always had a fascist undercurrent that was foisted on the world through gruesome wars and torture of civilians and labor organizers in South America (for example) With Trump, you're seeing that will to power, (rather than fairness and the rule of law) come home. I'll describe, in another thread, modern slavery in the US; surveillance, sweat shops (literally Amazon fulfillment centers, speaking of sweat) and censorship. Authoritarianism? Too many current examples to cite here.

Very few people, very few Americans consider the US a democratic republic, at this time.

Jess my argument has never been one that denied there's any corruption or tyranny or hypocrisy or authoritarianism in the U.S. (and the west in general). My argument has been that there's far less of it here than anywhere else in the world, so this weird self-hating oikophobia makes little sense to me. It's largely socially engineered as far as I can tell; it's like "woke" for adults.

My issue with your analysis is not that it offers criticism, it's that it's exclusively criticism. It's cynical and uninformed. The appropriate attitude towards the west and the US in particular should be one of immense gratitude, all things considered. It's an argument I'll have a very easy time making if you ever start that thread, but I don't think you'll start it

I've read and listened to so much of the propaganda generated by the most powerful and wealthiest voices in the US, or their mouthpieces. Now it's time for YOU to do the same, but with the added twist of familiarizing yourself with those who are brilliant analysts but much less powerful. You've become a stenographer for the most vile people on the planet. Until you do read something by say, Chris Hedges, or something by Jeffrey Sachs, I won't waste my time and yours by starting a thread. It's not because you will easily best me there. It has more to do with the incredible frustration with someone so easily duped by power.

[Johnnycomelately]

Dear AutumnW, stranger, your epithet for Mike “so easily duped by power” tells of your own bent, imo.

I do hope you create that thread, where you could express your views more completely.

Posted by AutumnW (here)

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I have little love for China, after witnessing what the mainland Chinese have done to the real estate (and fentanyl) market in Canada. Corrupt officials in the provincial governments and the federal government turned their back on the problems and told us we were "racist" when we complained.

But here's the thing, and it's confusing. I don't know if the Chinese government, under Xi, is at all responsible. It might be quite the contrary. At least some of the mainland Chinese who lied their way into Canada, were trying to escape legal prosecution in China and Trudeau refused to repatriate them, when Xi requested their return. Why? Because they faced the death penalty if they were sent back. So, who is to blame? I don't hate Trudeau either (though he's a goofball)

Anyway, the Chinese are ruthless businessmen and women. Their energy is breathtaking and they brains to burn. I don't doubt that, as long as they are able to keep corruption at a manageable level, they will totally displace Europe and America as modern powerhouses.

The US, MIKE, has run an experiment in hypocrisy, more than anything else. They have always had a fascist undercurrent that was foisted on the world through gruesome wars and torture of civilians and labor organizers in South America (for example) With Trump, you're seeing that will to power, (rather than fairness and the rule of law) come home. I'll describe, in another thread, modern slavery in the US; surveillance, sweat shops (literally Amazon fulfillment centers, speaking of sweat) and censorship. Authoritarianism? Too many current examples to cite here.

Very few people, very few Americans consider the US a democratic republic, at this time.

Jess my argument has never been one that denied there's any corruption or tyranny or hypocrisy or authoritarianism in the U.S. (and the west in general). My argument has been that there's far less of it here than anywhere else in the world, so this weird self-hating oikophobia makes little sense to me. It's largely socially engineered as far as I can tell; it's like "woke" for adults.

My issue with your analysis is not that it offers criticism, it's that it's exclusively criticism. It's cynical and uninformed. The appropriate attitude towards the west and the US in particular should be one of immense gratitude, all things considered. It's an argument I'll have a very easy time making if you ever start that thread, but I don't think you'll start it

I've read and listened to so much of the propaganda generated by the most powerful and wealthiest voices in the US, or their mouthpieces. Now it's time for YOU to do the same, but with the added twist of familiarizing yourself with those who are brilliant analysts but much less powerful. You've become a stenographer for the most vile people on the planet. Until you do read something by say, Chris Hedges, or something by Jeffrey Sachs, I won't waste my time and yours by starting a thread. It's not because you will easily best me there. It has more to do with the incredible frustration with someone so easily duped by power.

[edina]

Mike and Autumn in discussion.

I think the two of you sharpen each other, like the adage, as iron sharpens irons, so does human sharpen human (Dinny twist there... )

It just makes me smile. I know this is probably off topic, but, it's what I'm thinking at the moment.

[AutumnW]

Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. The truly powerful, in the US, are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in their followers to further undermine them...particularly in the long run.

[Johnnycomelately]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. They are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in those people to undermine them.

Powerful people have always drawn their power from willing underlings. The power of the majority, people who seek strong allies, weaklings who won’t stand up for themselves, who tend to do their leader’s bidding and persecute heretics. So, wherefore comest thy political and geopolitical preferences? Asking for a friend.

[Mike]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. The truly powerful, in the US, are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in their followers to further undermine them...particularly in the long run.

Jeffrey Sachs is a WEF guy, Jess. He's not powerless (or "independent"). And Hedges is a socialist. I know who they are! But if this is what it takes, send me some videos or essays, and I'll watch and read some more. I'll try to do it with an open mind. Dennis once sent me a 10 hour series on Zionism, and I watched the whole bloody thing. When I say I'm gonna do something, I f'in do it. So send me some stuff, I'll watch/read it, and we'll talk about it on another thread, okay? We're screwing this thread up.

[onawah]

There are a few things that have not really come into the discussion as yet, representing something akin to the "elephant in the room", two of those things being discernment and intuition.
When we base our beliefs on what we hear or read and not on what we actually have first hand evidence of, we are largely depending on our discernment, which generally takes care, time, and experience to develop (not to mention wisdom).
Those with the higher faculties such as intuition have a distinct advantage, though relying on such alone can be hazardous, and in any case, will generally not be recognized by the doubting souls who lack such higher skills.
There is also another more esoteric factor, that being the input we may receive from our spirit guides, which may or may not always be accurate, but may at least deserve our attention.
Furthermore, it may not always be our spirit guides who are feeding us information, but other masquerading entities (or even psycop technology) with the intention of misleading.
In these times, when so much is being misrepresented in the media, the fortunate few whose discernment, intuition and spiritual guidance are reliable have a distinct advantage.
Although to those who rely only on what they assume to be "the facts" such individuals may seem very misguided and deluded.
Even though prophets have shown themselves again and again to have foresight and insight, such as:
Daniel 12:10 "Many shall purify themselves; and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand: but they that be wise shall understand."
(...Not a claim on my part that Daniel was necessarily foreseeing what would be happening now, so very far in his future, but the description does match some of what is going on now. The emphasis on wisdom as being a necessary component in truly understanding, is valid in any time frame. )

[Frankie Pancakes]

If I looked you in the eye and told you the Rocky Mountains don’t exist, you’d think I was crazy.

But give me time, and I could make you believe it.

I wouldn’t need threats or force. I wouldn’t really even need a good argument.

All I’d need is steady, confident repetition. The kind that comes from the voices you already trust.

Say, you lived out on the eastern plains of Colorado. The land is flat and the horizon looks empty.

You’ve got a job, a family, responsibilities. You’re not driving hours west to confirm whether a mountain range is sitting there; it’s not like it’s urgent.

So you don’t push back. You just absorb the disinformation.

And soon enough, you’re not just accepting the idea, you’re defending it.

Your identity becomes wrapped in the belief that the world is exactly as you were told it is.

The same psychological trick is being played on the entire country.

For years, people have been told certain problems simply don’t exist and that the “mountains” rising out of our national landscape are illusions.

You know the list: The border isn’t wide open, crime is down, failing schools are fine, our cities are flourishing. Nothing is wrong with the country’s direction.

Millions of people have accepted these claims not because they’ve verified them, but because they’ve heard them repeated endlessly by institutions they once trusted.

And when the evidence becomes undeniable, their instinct isn’t to reconsider…

It’s to rage.

This is Manufactured Mass Hysteria.



https://dailyreckoning.com/the-unite...s-of-delusion/

[AutumnW]

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. The truly powerful, in the US, are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in their followers to further undermine them...particularly in the long run.

Jeffrey Sachs is a WEF guy, Jess. He's not powerless (or "independent"). And Hedges is a socialist. I know who they are! But if this is what it takes, send me some videos or essays, and I'll watch and read some more. I'll try to do it with an open mind. Dennis once sent me a 10 hour series on Zionism, and I watched the whole bloody thing. When I say I'm gonna do something, I f'in do it. So send me some stuff, I'll watch/read it, and we'll talk about it on another thread, okay? We're screwing this thread up.

Sachs speaks truth to power. A lot of that power is concentrated in platforms like the World Economic Forum. The WEF is a platform, not an institution, corporation, etc...

And Chris Hedges is a Democratic Socialist. A great example of propaganda is those in power not defining and differentiating clearly. They bandy the terms "socialism" and "communism" around while conflating it with Democratic Socialism.

The Scandinavian countries are Democratic Socialists, where standard of living is higher and the average person has access to healthcare and paternity/maternity paid benefits with months off (I think it's 4 months but could be more) Meanwhile, women in the US are expected to go to work a few days after giving birth and if they want to make rent and are stuck on minimum wage, the very next f'g day.

Another good example of propaganda is tarring too many people with the same brush. Those who have spoken at the WEF, or heads up a committee devoted to climate change or something of that nature, aren't members of some dark, shady cabal sticking vaccine needles in arms.

Understanding propaganda means looking much more deeply into things that you may disagree with, as you have to wonder if you've been duped yourself. Social media has become as bad as mainstream media. It encourages a superficial approach to subject matter and plays to knee jerk emotional reactions. Youtube and Rumble are cesspits as bad as CNN, Fox, CBS, NBC and ABC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaFTgWgeKF4&t=1360s