Canon or Not canon?

[Valknut3301]

I’ve seen some discussion recently around the interwebs about what should and shouldn’t be considered canon in movies, usually in relation to what’s been termed ‘personal head-canon’, but I have my own thoughts on this I’d like to share, and I think things have gotten so bad it falls on us, the fans, to uphold some kind of criteria by which these things are judged.

First of all, for those who don’t know, ‘canon’ is defined as...

1. a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged. 2. a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.

As canon relates to film, television and other popular media, it usually relates to what is accepted as being a legitimate part of the fictional world in question as a whole. So, as an example, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion, written by J.R.R. Tolkien, are generally considered canon, though some might argue against The Silmarillion for various reasons, myself included. Whereas The Book of Unfinished Tales is not, and is usually thought of as a collection of curiosities relating to Tolkien’s construction of Middle Earth alone.

I used to be very flexible with what I considered canon, but in recent years I’ve been burned so many times I’ve pulled back and formed a very hard line stance on it all. I’m a Star Wars fan, I grew up with the original trilogy, before the special edition, and enjoyed the release of each prequel in turn and still love them (fight me!), so my disgust at what’s been done to George Lucas’ creation runs deep and I consider Disney’s disregard for Star Wars irredeemable.

I feel the same way about Star Trek (also one of my favorites growing up), the Marvel films (although I never really considered the films canon to begin with, so it’s not something which really bothers me) and the Lord of the Rings.

To get to the point, after much thought I’ve identified a common thread through all the media I love, and found the point at which it all began to fail. Once the original creator no longer has control everything goes to hell. Take Star Trek for example. Once Roddenberry died each series which came along seemed less and less like Star Trek. I liked DS9 and Voyager, but they weren’t nearly as good as the original series or the Next Generation. Enterprise was alright, and I consider it canon, but only because it was helmed by the people who Roddenberry personally chose to work on Star Trek while he was still alive. After Enterprise, nothing is canon in my book and I disregard it as little more than poorly written fan-fiction.

My stance is this: If the creator of a fictional world isn’t involved somehow, it isn’t canon at all. There are six Star Wars films and, sadly, we’ll never see any others. Star Trek, true Star Trek, is the original series, several films, The Next Generation, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. It ended in 2005 and nothing will ever exist beyond that. Tolkien wrote and released four books set in Middle Earth, that’s all he deemed fit to be read and nothing else is canon.

Really I’ve come to think of it as a way of showing respect. As an artist I wouldn’t want someone else taking my world and playing fast-and-loose with it, changing things and ignoring the personal rules only I know about and can understand. So, I’ll respect Lucas, Roddenberry and Tolkien by taking their vision as sacrosanct, while ignoring everything else as nothing but a poor imitation.

And poor is exactly what it is, that is to say, without value.

[Rawhide68]

First I thought this post was about The Mandela effect Canon, Cannon and so on.

Then I thought this was about Canon vs Nikon camera manufacturers.

After that I thought it ment
In the Roman Catholic Church officially declare (a dead person) to be a saint.

At last I grasped that this word canon is for me a new word, yes I'm very old and foreigner.

Google AI informed me
Canon in movies generally means the core, "official" story events, usually defined by creators or primary sources (like books/comics).


I have a theory why films nowdays in genaral as well as popular music is in decline.

AI makes it simple to make and for films to fit a broad audiance to get as much cash back as posible.

Nowdays it's just algoritms

It's like in the 70's when fast food became popular.

Watch Idocracy from 2006 and laugh/cry, thats where we are going with this future timeline

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6lai9QhBibk

[Bill Ryan]

A fascinating topic. Although this is all 'just pop culture', I really do think it's important.

Indiana Jones, as well. Whoever made the executive decisions about the storyline in his final movie, reducing a timeless, beloved hero to pathos, should be forever banned from Hollywood.

(...and don't lets even mention the true Disney Classics like Snow White...)

[norman]

Hollywood fiction is a mind virus.

And while I'm at it, religious fiction is a mind virus too.

IMO

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Valknut3301 (here)
To get to the point, after much thought I’ve identified a common thread through all the media I love, and found the point at which it all began to fail. Once the original creator no longer has control everything goes to hell.

That seems to be the case - and in almost every case! Star Trek, definitely.

As a big Trek fan since childhood, it's been devastating to watch the fall of Star Trek. Everything today branded "Star Trek" isn't just poor Star Trek, it's anti- Star Trek. These awful new shows, one after the other, destroy the foundations upon which Star Trek was built on. Bit by bit, beat by beat. As a Trek purist, and someone very much involved with actual Trek fandom back in the day, I speak with surety and absolute conviction that Star Trek canon includes ToS (the Original Series), The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager, and Enterprise. I agree on all those points. Anything beyond Enterprise? Fan-fiction fever-dream rubbish, especially the JJ Abrams B-universe crap.

It's interesting that my 'fave' book/movie/TV IPs are, like yours, Star Trek, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings. I'm extremely passionate about them.

I differ on LOTR though. I consider all matter concerning Middle Earth penned by Professor Tolkien as canon, including most certainly The Silmarillion, which tells many important stories from the first age, like the first war against Morgoth, and the fate of Numinor in the important Akkalebeth. And Unfinished Tales, which relates the history of Galadriel, introduces the important Túrin Turambar, and joins many other dots concerning the War of the Ring. I wonder, did you mean the quite different Book of Lost Tales that wasn't quite canon?

For a true example of non-canon Tolkien, see the dreadful Rings of Power posted about here and throughout that thread.

On Star Wars, I'm old school. I grew up with the original trilogy. I quite hated the prequel trilogy at the time, but grudgingly accept that trio of very flawed films as canon (Lucas penned and directed them). But I have grown to appreciate them rather more in recent years when comparing them to the three turds called 'Star Wars' which Disney put out and that count as the sequel trilogy. I gave up after The Last Jedi, and didn't even bother going to see The Rise of Skywalker. I haven't seen it to this day.

For me (and this is entirely personal)

Canon Star Wars:
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi

and...between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope -- Rogue One.

I really did rather enjoy that movie. It had 'the feel', it had the aesthetic, it felt like Star Wars and fit in perfectly with the lore (the canon). So for me, Rogue One is the sole addition to the list of Star Wars films, which includes only Episodes 1-6. Discard the rest! Especially the various mostly dreadful spin-off TV shows they've subjected us to in recent years. Although I did quite enjoy the first two seasons of The Mandalorian.

[grapevine]

Not just media either, but products too

Since Bill Gates became involved with Coca Cola who wants to drink it any more? Also after Estee Lauder bought Jo Malone in 1999 the signature scents changed imperceptibly shortly afterwards. And don't get me started on Kettle Chips, which used to be the best brand in UK imo, owned by Campbell Soup Company until they were bought by Valeo Foods Group in 2019.

apologies

[Valknut3301]

I agree with Bill. These stories are part of our cultural identity, they bring us together and help us to connect and relate to one another, as well as inform us on how to live a life of heroism and morality. Just look at the works of Joseph Campbell, like The Hero With a Thousand Faces or The Power of Myth. That's why it's so disturbing to see our favorite stories being degraded and bastardized, because it's an attack on our very identities.

And to Star Mariner, I agree about Rogue One, I enjoyed it as well. Although I am very disturbed by resurrecting dead actors and using their image and voice without consent, as they did with Peter Cushing. It makes me think of putting a corpse on strings and using them as puppets to sing and dance. It makes me shudder. I've heard the Mandalorean was good, but I stopped paying attention after Episode 8, it made me sick and I try to avoid consuming unhealthy things.

[JackMcThorn]

The original almost always tends to be better than the sequels. This is nothing really new. Same with re-booting. Shows seem to come and go and get refreshed with new faces on old stories or other new stories. Doctor Who, which I have enjoyed from time to time deliberately designed change with new faces and new stories over many decades and is quite successful and fun.

But I have a bit of contention with the idea that Star Trek is dying or dead. These types of genre [sci-fi to be specific] have a tendency towards unlimited imagination beyond the original intent or the creator's endeavor which does indeed end at some point. The creative license regarding unlimited imagination comes only at the cost and systems of production; and these areas have limits which are stretched at some point with technology advancements.

So I do not look at the areas outside of 'canon' necessarily as bad or poor work - but rather just different and possibly based on their own merits rather than a comparison to original creators. New creators do [i think] have a responsibility to the original creator(s) - that they take seriously. I do not think new creators set out to disappoint the fan base. But the grumblings are real and present.

I remember not really watching Enterprise when it was broadcast. I was involved in a conversation with another fan at some point and he convinced me to try it again some years later and streaming was more of a thing so I indeed tried again and was thrilled with it. [I wondered if any other fans return to a series later on and have a similar experience.]

But I have to say I still enjoyed the Abrams' versions - they are new stories with new faces and a technological aesthetic unmatched by the original TOS. And die-hard fans mostly hated it and complained early and often. I find these reactions to be kind of interesting in the manner that if you could do better, then why don't you. [Costs and systems of production, notwithstanding...]

So my point is that the merit of the future works be placed on itself rather than a comparison to the original canon. Discovery for instance is not that good. I think I still haven't seen the final season and have just not made the time yet. I am not convinced I will try it later on and be thrilled like Enterprise. On it's own merit, it does not get the job done. But you wouldn't get me in the forums bad-mouthing it or grumbling about why they didn't listen to the fan base, or why its not like so and so previous series, or why it over does it with the woke influences or any other misgivings that become the squeaky wheel of the fan base. A fan base that is highly critical - and sensitive to say the least.

The other point of contention that must be mentioned is the fact that most people do not like change. [And change as you know is constant.] So these changes to your originals are generally going to be rejected at the onset and I think production is no stranger to this reaction. I remember some years ago working in a cube farm and one day the boss came out of his office with a printout of new cube assignments and said this morning we are all changing desks. You would not believe the uproar and grumblings throughout the entire process. He even had IT standing by to move people's PCs. I moved my pc and desk as soon as I could and just observed the environment. Most change; however slight, does elicit some sort of grumblings.

But I still think, disappointment is not what future creators are setting out to do. They are also working on expanding the fan base and I cannot think at the expense of the older fans. But I realize this is just my opinion.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by JackMcThorn (here)
I do not think new creators set out to disappoint the fan base.

Unfortunately they do, and have. When challenged by the Tolkien fanbase, the creators of the Rings of Power simply said their opinions "don't matter". If they didn't like it, they didn't have to watch. And guess what? They didn't. They turned off in droves. There's never been a better example of 'get woke, go broke'.

These people who have taken over the helms of existing IPs don't give a crap about what came before. They're more than happy to trash entire legacies to promote their toxic agenda. With Rings of Power it was all about diversity. Black dwarves, Chinese Hobbits...give me a break!, and Orc communities that championed family values, loved one another and looked after their children, eliciting empathy from the viewer for their plight -- because they're "oppressed" and stuff. What a load of cultural marxist BS!! If you knew anything about Orcs [the physical manifestation of evil] you'd throw the remote at the TV. Many did.

RoP was written by people who didn't know how to write -- at all! What's more, it was written by people that never read Tolkien, and therefore didn't understand (or care about) Tolkien. First and foremost, these people are activists. And again, they pretty much came out and said they weren't interested in the lore [the canon]. They had a billion dollars to make a Tolkien show, to 're-imagine' middle-earth and do whatever the hell they wanted, fans be damned. What did they do? They made middle-earth mirror the world of today, concentrating on diversity, inclusivity, and ideological messaging. And mary-sue girl bosses! They didn't just destroy Tolkien's vision in the process, they knowingly destroyed it. They even released the first episode on the anniversary of Tolkien's death as a final insult!

RoP was quite possibly the worst television show in the history of television shows. Not just my opinion!!

Rings Of Power - The Ultimate Insult To Tolkien
2.4M views

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=O8T1LPtS4-A

It's the same for Star Trek, the same for Star Wars, and the same for Doctor Who. Cultural vandalism. It's deliberate. They're out to destroy the things we love.

If you need more convincing, the latest Star Turd recently dropped:

Starfleet Academy - What Is This Garbage?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=QsZMCgSUy0s

[JackMcThorn]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
They're out to destroy the things we love. If you need more convincing...

I don't know anything about Fantasy genre and I see you.

But The Original Series Star Trek was not the first in sci-fi to present diversity firsts, but the first in american television on several counts unheard of in the late 196o's.

And listening to the complaining on those yt shorts just makes my ears burn. Misery loves company and there is plenty of that to go around. Critics and opinions are endless.

I will still stick to my merits based perspective and hope for the cyclical nature to return to some semblance of sanity in production. After all, if anyone else at work set out to disappoint the customer, they would be fired. And not keeping with the fan base means losing billions of profits.

Is the message they are trying to send worth that kind of money? It's nonsense but indeed reality. Good thing change is constant.

[Nasu]

The real problem is agreeing what is or isn’t canon. That’s the nub of the problem. It’s completely subjective. Who is the final arbiter or judge, the creator or the fan?

If you asked Disney for example, regarding Star Wars, they would tell you that the pantheon of side shows and movies make up the official canon of Star Wars. Given that they legally own the IP, it is hard to argue against that.

However from a fan’s perspective they could legitimately argue that the six canon movies represent the life and death of Vader and nothing more.

Furthermore the fan could argue that the last three movies are merely a delirious fever dream that break many canonical rules set out in earlier films and as such clearly cannot be canon.

However a purist would say that there are only three movies, starting with A New Hope. In this canon it is expressly emphasised that Jar jar never existed.

Personally my canon is the only thing that matters, there’s no point in debating it as it has no end. For example I think the cartoon clone wars and bad batch are far superior to any of the movies.

Oh and for the record, Greedo shot first and Die hard one and two ARE definitely both Christmas movies…….x…….. N

[Vicus]

The canon number 1 is that this planet is 97% binary...the rest 3% consist in ALL the "fringes" exceptions...

That is the BIG FACT! not new, always was so, in all cultures, in all times,with more or less acceptations. Nothing changed trough the times, unless someone/somebody/something "work" on it...

And today mass media is optimal for all sort of "implants", trough "Agendas"...the only possible way to try to co op /invert what Nature is.

For that task" they" need media control and money, a lot of...and what better then movies/TV for ALL the World from pedo/demonic Holliwird and the rest...

Is truth that the first Star trek brought some positive chances like a Russian officer ( in the high of cold war), an extraterrestrial officer and at last! a black women... but naturally she must be a hottie in mini skirt! for complacence of ALL races...

Well, that was in the old good times...but now and from more than 10 years "they" try to invert everything! The fat women from Mark post up are not only disgusting but ridicule too!
No Army on the planet will accept them in such fitness outfit and NO way for any space program where Astronauts go to so intensive training for all aspects!

And not only in the "Ring" movies we can see such disasters but everywhere! inverting the man/woman polarities! : Men are wick-lings and women are the new macho...

Superman cant die...or maybe a new pedo story between Batman and Robin?

The whole Agenda in 1 word : emasculation !

From more than 10 years "They" are humiliate / denigrate/killing ALL men Heroes!

Mad Max, all macho women...
Indiana Jones, replace with...wait for it... a women and final death!
The Star Wars smuggler... another women...and final death!
Terminator, the humanity savior killed in the first 20 minutes...and then the grumpy Sarah Connor and 2 other women kill the rest Terminator army...
James Bond, replace for a black women, the new 007,so he is now 00...and die to save a child that he dint knew a hour before and a tramp woman...

And on and on...BUT the END is nigh ...

Will see with the new James Bond movie, sure we will see his beginnings... (ob he is a none binary? ) the director for this movie is from first class Denise Villanueve (from Sicario movie) but the producers are to decide
what the story should be...and I guess they don't want to lose money...(go woke go broke)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by JackMcThorn (here)
But The Original Series Star Trek was not the first in sci-fi to present diversity firsts, but the first in american television on several counts unheard of in the late 196o's.

Roddenberry set the ball rolling with ToS, that's true, by insisting on a diverse cast, but the reasons for doing so was very different. Roddenberry championed equality, and used it very well (Sulu, Checkov, Uhura) but without tilting too far. How far is too far?

Posted by Vicus (here)
...but now and from more than 10 years "they" try to invert everything! The fat women from Mark post up are not only disgusting but ridicule too!

What Vicus said. Never in the history of Star Trek have we seen [ahem] plus-sized characters swanning around the bridge. And female plus-sized characters, who are calling all the shots upstaging the 'secondary' males. These women are 'androgynous' women, too, suggestive of even more diversity. Further, one of these plus-sized performers is playing a black Jem-Hadar (!)

If you understood Star Trek canon, you'd know that the Jem-Hadar are (a), a mortal enemy of just about every other race in existence, (b) a Gamma Quadrant species anyway, existing 10s of 1000s of light years from Federation space, (c) are a cloned super-soldier slave race of the Founders, being entirely dependent on the Founders for the drug that fuels them for battle and carnage, without which they're genetically programmed to die, and so (d) >> they have no will of their own, no autonomy, no personality, they are built to KILL, burn, and destroy, nothing more - they are drones, not people, (e), Jem-Hadar aren't black, (f) Jem-Hadar are genetically perfect, fighting fit specimens, an overwieght one would be impossible - and finally (g) Jem-Hadar are never female; the Jem'Hadar are an all-male warrior species.

The fact a Jem-Hadar is operating as a Starfleet officer on the bridge of a Federation ship tells me the creators either don't know about canon, or don't care about canon. That character exists only to tick a box, or several boxes: female, black, and plus-size, all in one package, and on top of that, in playing a Jem-Hadar, they're humanising an inhuman species. For what reason? 'Inclusivity'. A philosophy that insists everything is included and embraced, even that which should never be embraced. It's no different to the Orcs in the Rings of Power.

Can you imagine a new 'Alien' movie coming out where we're told the xenomorph that terrorised Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) for all those films was in fact kind, thoughtful, and sensitive, a civilised species that we've grossly misunderstood all along? And...we didn't just misunderstand it, we oppressed it. The alien was a stand-in for racial oppression, a victim of white supremacy. Ripley probably misgendered the alien too...

Etc.

This is the level of absurdity we have reached.

Roddenberry's diversity push started out as something pure, something righteous. It got tainted along the way. Woke inversion took over. Now it's just a joke.

[HopSan]

Extremely irritating tendency:

The Them make a new TV series, in the beginning loveable
(creating 'canon', spirit of the thing), in the second season add
woke shait, in the third openly push your triggers, with no shame.

A good example: "The Orville". I surprisingly liked it first, as it felt
refreshing, but after third (final) season I was very happy to never
know anything about it again.

[JackMcThorn]

I watched the first two episodes of Star Trek - Starfleet Academy.

Is it garbage? No, I don't think so. I did not think to myself, how can I get these two hours back?

Was some of it annoying or even off-putting? Possibly. [Don't want to spoil it with too many details if some people do try to watch it with somewhat of an open mind.] The most off-putting factor was the chancellor [captain] and her ridiculous lounging manner in the captain's chair. It was bizarre and unbecoming.

I think the woke factor is low and minimal thus far. Reviews in advance focus on this but they were analyzing trailers at the time, not episodes. [Which I am sure there are more reviews since it was released, but I have not sought them out yet.]

So I was thinking after watching these episodes about how many times shows are re-run and this is primarily to get the market share of new and youthful audiences. [While thinking that gathering the new markets alienates the established fanbase.] I realized that alienating the fanbase is a trade-off [of seemingly lessor value. [I do think they are leaving a lot of money on the table, however.]]

I am now 5o years old. Good lord. So if I step into my 2o year old shoes, [around my daughter's age and she is just finishing uni this May] I have got to think, this story arc could be right on time for that age group- for that market and it does not feel like the old school is alienated to such a degree that the new arc is unwatchable. [There are some references for the old-timers in these episodes.]

So I would just say, if you are a fan give it a couple hours and if it so doesn't click, then you at least had at it with an open mind and spared yourself the rest of the episodes. [It did not have a Discovery vibe to me at all.]