Reincarnation - alternative views

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
If this is not someone's past life recall - then whose memories am I picking up and mistaking them for?

Thanks, Bill. I love you, as I love all my brothers and sisters, though you may not feel it, given your “recent” horrendous experiences. If I had been your father back in the 1850s, things would have been much better. Ask my children.

I had read your account a few days ago, but I read it again with equal interest. It’s a shame that fathers like this exist, in fact, it’s more than a shame. It’s nearly a crime.

In that account, you said, “In this game we play, remember that nothing really matters.” This does not jive with the importance you give this story, or that you give to your past-life memories. They are important, and things do matter, and this is no game. And those are all reasons why I suspect reincarnation is a faulty explanation for these shared memories. If nothing matters, why would it be necessary to have shared memories?

Ah, my old friend Occam’s Razor. Few things are more misunderstood. When there are multiple explanations of equal validity, the simplest explanation is the preferred one. Why? Because among humans, the greatest common denominator is a simple mind. Simple minds require simple explanations. We tend to simplify everything. Rules of thumb rule. The brain of a human being, though wondrous for us to behold, is no match for the complexity of the universe. With Occam’s Razor as justification, most people assume that the simplest explanation is also the correct explanation, when there is no assurance whatsoever that the simplest explanation is even correct.

I cannot tell you whose memories you are picking up, or how, or why, for I don’t know. I am only human, and my simple brain is no match for the complexity of the universe. I am not afraid to say, “I don’t know.” But that does not deter me from trying to find out. In fact, it drives me forward to seek out the truth, because it is important, and things do matter, and this is no game.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)
things do matter, and this is no game.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post177327

--------

Life is a game. All of existence is. But that doesn't mean it's trivial.

Two kids chasing each other in a playground is a game. But so is intergalactic war.

Some games feel serious when we're losing, when it's someone else's game and not our own, when we don't know what the rules are, when it seems impossible to win, or when it seems we have too few players on our side.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ic70cVN5IdQ

Game = a purposeful activity with team-mates and/or resources/assets on one's side, and factors/circumstances (or groups, or people) operating against you.

Examples of games:

• Chess
• Football
• Climbing Mount Everest alone
• Sending men to the moon before the end of the the decade and bringing them back safely (JFK)
• Stopping Adolf Hitler (or anyone else that one doesn't like)
• Inventing a working Free Energy machine
• Becoming a millionaire
• Becoming a parent
• Becoming enlightened
• Ending unnecessary suffering in this universe

(+ about 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 other examples....)

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
it is a synopsis of literally 7,000 people breaking through to memories from time spent between incarnations. That's really critically distinct from past-life memory recall.

Is it so different? If the correct explanation is something other than reincarnation, it may be no different at all.

You ask if I could tell the difference? No more than anyone else, I suspect. The memories would seem real to me. I've had hallucinations (due to illness) that seemed real to me, and I've seen my brother also have hallucinations due to illness, and he said they were just as real as the waking world.

We are limited to our own consciousness, something we can't even define. Who's to say we don't share it, to some degree?

[Gone001]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
If this is not someone's past life recall - then whose memories am I picking up and mistaking them for?

Thanks, Bill. I love you, as I love all my brothers and sisters, though you may not feel it, given your “recent” horrendous experiences. If I had been your father back in the 1850s, things would have been much better. Ask my children.

I had read your account a few days ago, but I read it again with equal interest. It’s a shame that fathers like this exist, in fact, it’s more than a shame. It’s nearly a crime.

In that account, you said, “In this game we play, remember that nothing really matters.” This does not jive with the importance you give this story, or that you give to your past-life memories. They are important, and things do matter, and this is no game. And those are all reasons why I suspect reincarnation is a faulty explanation for these shared memories. If nothing matters, why would it be necessary to have shared memories?

Ah, my old friend Occam’s Razor. Few things are more misunderstood. When there are multiple explanations of equal validity, the simplest explanation is the preferred one. Why? Because among humans, the greatest common denominator is a simple mind. Simple minds require simple explanations. We tend to simplify everything. Rules of thumb rule. The brain of a human being, though wondrous for us to behold, is no match for the complexity of the universe. With Occam’s Razor as justification, most people assume that the simplest explanation is also the correct explanation, when there is no assurance whatsoever that the simplest explanation is even correct.

I cannot tell you whose memories you are picking up, or how, or why, for I don’t know. I am only human, and my simple brain is no match for the complexity of the universe. I am not afraid to say, “I don’t know.” But that does not deter me from trying to find out. In fact, it drives me forward to seek out the truth, because it is important, and things do matter, and this is no game.

With that logic why settle on any conclusion "Maybe the sky isn't blue, I'm not going to settle on blue just because it's the simplest explanation for the skies color, I'll keep searching". What I'm trying to say is, to me at least, reincarnation is as much a fact as the sky being blue (if ya didn't get that). It's not a religious belief or leap of fate, it's pure logic.

I think you underestimate the gut as well. You know... sometimes you just get a gut feeling about certain things, you just KNOW. I have my own past life experiences and I know what they are, I can feel it. It makes sense; it fits like a ****ing glove. That sense of feeling mixed in with my own logic leaves no other option. On top of that there are countless accounts from different people and their own experiences to take into consideration.

Anyway... It's not borrowed memories and it's not as valid an argument. As William said... in his case.. for it to be a borrowed memory there would have to be a 160 year old walking around. Some people have memories going thousands of years back, if those were borrowed memories from people still kicking then I'll eat my laptop. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything I'm just really surprised to see your objections here. Maybe I've misunderstood, are you saying you don't think reincarnation is real at all or just not in every case?

Cheers,

Aldous

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Game = a purposeful activity with team-mates and/or resources/assets on one's side, and factors/circumstances (or groups, or people) operating against you.

Oh, well, of course! If that's the definition we are working with, then I agree with you that life is a game! That wasn't my working definition for "game", which was an amusing, trivial activity of no real importance. Like hide-and-seek on a balmy Georgia evening with all your cousins at Grandma's house.... Now, that's what I call a game!

Just another instance of using the exact same language and neither one understanding a word the other is writing! I hate it when that happens!

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Aldous (here)
With that logic why settle on any conclusion

There is some truth to that. Essentially you move from being certain how the world works, to being uncertain. That's not a mindset many people are comfortable with. They want to be sure the sky is blue. They forget that they only perceive it as blue in their minds, and even that is a function of all the chemical reactions that take place everywhere from the cone cells in their retinas to the neurons in their brains. If the sky even has color or is anything like we perceive it is never considered. Everything could simply be vibration, and blue just happens to be the way we perceive the sky when it interacts with our sun's vibrations.

Maybe I've misunderstood, are you saying you don't think reincarnation is real at all or just not in every case?

I'm saying that the idea of reincarnation as a means of explaining the experience of these "alien" memories may be the wrong explanation. It's like in the days of old, the sound of thunder was explained as the hammer of Thor hitting his anvil. There were people that never questioned it. "Can't you hear it? It's as plain as the nose on your face!" What other explanation did they have? The only thing they knew of that resembled thunder was the sound of a hammer hitting an anvil.

[Gone001]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)

Posted by Aldous (here)
With that logic why settle on any conclusion

There is some truth to that. Essentially you move from being certain how the world works, to being uncertain. That's not a mindset many people are comfortable with. They want to be sure the sky is blue. They forget that they only perceive it as blue in their minds, and even that is a function of all the chemical reactions that take place everywhere from the cone cells in their retinas to the neurons in their brains. If the sky even has color or is anything like we perceive it is never considered. Everything could simply be vibration, and blue just happens to be the way we perceive the sky when it interacts with our sun's vibrations.

Maybe I've misunderstood, are you saying you don't think reincarnation is real at all or just not in every case?

I'm saying that the idea of reincarnation as a means of explaining the experience of these "alien" memories may be the wrong explanation. It's like in the days of old, the sound of thunder was explained as the hammer of Thor hitting his anvil. There were people that never questioned it. "Can't you hear it? It's as plain as the nose on your face!" What other explanation did they have? The only thing they knew of that resembled thunder was the sound of a hammer hitting an anvil.

Yes but we see it as blue. Let me use Time as an an analogy. It's not real, but it is applicable at least as a measurement to us humans therefore giving it some validity. Maybe nothing around us is real and everything we experience is just a manifestation from the mind of the collective consciousness, but right now we take on the form of human beings and in our world the sky is blue.

I get what your saying by the Thor's hammer thing but that analogy doesn't work here. Society thought that yes, but we're talking about mainstream society here. We aren't mainstream society. I'm sure back in the days when mainstream society thought the Earth was round there was a group of cunning individuals who thought "Wait a minute.. that can't be right". We here at Avalon are that group not the ones mistaking the Earth for being round or mistaking loud cloud booms as Thor's hammer.

We aren't all one anymore IMHO ... we started out that way yes but then we accumulated our own experiences through our lives thus making us Unique. Our bare consciousness is the same but that's about it. Think about a blob of clay. I then divide the ball into 4 blocks that are exactly the same. I then mold one into a bowl, one into a plate, throw one out the window and use the last one for an ash tray. They at this point are all completely different. They are all clay, sure (they all share this), but each has had it's own experience at my fingertips and each has taken on it's own shape. Maybe one day I can melt them all down again and mix them back up into the same blob, but until then they stand on their own. I know reincarnation to be real and despite popular opinion I believe I'm a unique individual and we are not all one (anymore).

I know reincarnation is the real deal (as do many here). Your here at Avalon now which means you've already gone through some sort of process of seeing that the world isn't as mainstream society says it is. You've probably had your own experiences and done your own research. With that being said, if by this point you don't think past lives are real, I don't know how to help you. It really doesn't matter anyways....

[Hawkwind]

Posted by king anthony (here)
What significance is this moment in eternity!?

Well, it seems to me if the atheists are right and this life is all you've got, then it makes sense to fully invest yourself in the current moment and squeeze ever drop of living out of it that you can- because this one life is all there is. If the mystics are right and you are a part of an eternal universal consciousness, then it makes sense to fully invest yourself in the current moment and squeeze every drop of living you can out of it- because you are all there is. About the only practical difference I can see is that the mystics' path is more oriented toward joy and the atheists' toward fear. I guess I'll find out if I chose the right one after I die.

[ViralSpiral]

Michael Newton's book Journey of Souls. When I was searching, this book made the biggest impact. There is a thread asking which movies helped one's "awakening", it was books for me, and this one is top of my list.

F.y.i and discernment....I saw this documentary some time back. Alas, I cant find a better version than this at the moment:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cdmMEKPFDTY

or this one

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=MuwtDawOIN8

[oceanz]

Firstly, I haven't read any books on reincarnation, haven't experienced it myself or know anybody who has been reincarnated.

To me, I liken reincarnation to plants - some lie dormant for seasons before re-seeding and re-emerging.

Why is it when some animals/insects etc are born they instinctively know what to do to survive without guidance...surely, it is not as simple as 'survival of the fittest'.

Are intense memories imprinted into our energy? Is this energy stored in our unconsciousness where these memories/informations are generally untapped?

As each of us carries the 50% genes from biological father and 50% genes from biological mother and therefore 25% from each grandparent and so on - does the energy (with the imprinted memories) still exsist in a dormant form in our unconscious mind and under certain circumstances shows itself?

Like living organs that are donated (e.g "eyes") transipients have been known to have organ donor memories. Just as organs are living so is energy as it never really is destroyed, only displaced.

My hope is then that whatever energy is left when we pass would be positively charged to circulate in the higher currents of earth as negative energy weighs people down and is not something human beings should be prolonged to...

[jorr lundstrom]

King Anthony:

What significance is this moment in eternity!?

This moment is eternity.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by jorr lundstrom (here)
King Anthony:

What significance is this moment in eternity!?

This moment is eternity.

It feels like it, let me tell ya.

[aroundthetable]

Better to try and get things right in THIS life rather than spending too much energy on trying to figure out your last ones. Accepting the principle of reincarnation however is beneficial to your spiritual progress.

In this life we have trouble remembering even what we did yesterday, what to speak of millions of years.

[king anthony]

Posted by Hawkwind (here)
I guess I'll find out if I chose the right one after I die.

I say, keep in mind the entirety of my words.

Many have the luxury of faith, belief and opinion; some have the false sense of safety with uncertainty and confusion; few have the burden of neither.

True, for some, 'time' will tell of the truth; missing opportunity that is.

[Dale]

I find legitimate accounts of reincarnation, or past life recall, to be made of three differing factors:

1) A subconscious mechanism to make sense of conflicting memories or repressed emotions/events.

2) A brief, conscious connection to the underlying field in which our DNA "communicates" with (one may refer to this as genetic memory).

3) A legitimate case of recalling a life in which your essence, or a portion of it, was contained in a different vehicle, either here or elsewhere.

For example, I hold a very strong affinity toward the Appalachia region of the United States, particularly Tennessee and Georgia. I could conclude that I had a previous incarnation in this area at one time, but I could also conclude that I have a subconscious fixation for this region based on a childhood experience in which my parents would not allow me to visit the state of Georgia with my grandparents, or that I have a particular "genetic memory" of this area. In my case, it's very likely that my affinity for this region stems mainly from a recent "genetic memory," likely Lamarckian in nature, as my mother's side of the family has lived in Tennessee for generations.

It can be difficult determining which is which for each case, as there are no scientific mechanisms/tests to help aid in narrowing down the selection; the only exception being an exemplar instance of regression.

[king anthony]

Posted by Dale (here)
1) A subconscious mechanism to make sense of conflicting memories or repressed emotions/events.

2) A brief, conscious connection to the underlying field in which our DNA "communicates" with (one may refer to this as genetic memory...

...I have a particular "genetic memory" of this area. In my case, it's very likely that my affinity for this region stems mainly from a recent "genetic memory," likely Lamarckian in nature, as my mother's side of the family has lived...

Bloodlines, which are 'genetic memory' (Lamarckian), relates to my post #11. The 'same specific template' can be used in the 'same specific bloodline', which would account for the examples expressed in your post. As well, 'templates' may not be exclusive to a bloodline.

This would also account for why no one has true 'future life' recall ('genetic memory' / Lamarckian), as it would be using a 'template of a biological operating system' not yet in use or made. There is no 'time', as it is an illusion - a tool created to govern existence through measurement.

However, existence is not an illusion and the 'now' is reality, which is 'everlasting'; change the perception of now and the reality is changed; not as a hologram or television station, rather, simply of what is - something that was, existed; and traces of that existence is found (in various forms); that which has not been, is yet to be - however, it is still 'the now'. This is becoming off topic, however, needed introduction as it relates to this reply.

@ ALL - I say, my objective is not to convince anyone of anything, believe what one will; do not believe what I say or that of another. I will say, my objective is to promote, hopefully inspire, others to search for real truths themselves; and if one wishes to remain firm in a belief afterwards - then truly, the freedom of choice has been made.

I say again, what will save one from 'tomorrow' - pleasant thoughts alone!?

[Hawkwind]

Posted by king anthony (here)

Posted by Hawkwind (here)
I guess I'll find out if I chose the right one after I die.

I say, keep in mind the entirety of my words.

I did, my friend, and listened also to the reverberations from the well whence they sprang. I'm just not in the habit of quoting entire posts in my responses.

Many have the luxury of faith, belief and opinion; some have the false sense of safety with uncertainty and confusion; few have the burden of neither.

I suppose I'm one of the lucky few then. When I said "I guess I'll find out when I die", I was actually being a bit playfully facetious. I know where I'm going, because I know who and what I am. It's not a matter of faith, belief or opinion. It's a direct experience of Truth at the core of my being. There's an old Taoist story that goes:
Chang Tzu dreamed he was a butterfly. When he awoke he didn't know if he was Chang Tzu who had dreamed of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming that he was Chang Tzu.

My guess is that after a few more dreams Chang Tzu discovered exactly who he was.

Posted by king anthony (here)
I say again, what will save one from 'tomorrow' - pleasant thoughts alone!?

John 8:32- And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Hawkwind (here)
My guess is that after a few more dreams Chang Tzu discovered exactly who he was.

My guess is that after a few more dreams Chang Tzu realized that he would never know exactly who he was, but that it didn't matter, because what he was changed from moment to moment.

[king anthony]

Posted by Hawkwind (here)
Chang Tzu dreamed he was a butterfly. When he awoke he didn't know if he was Chang Tzu who had dreamed of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming that he was Chang Tzu.

John 8:32- And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Has not human arrogance complicated the uncomplicated!? Has not thought been clouded through deceit either by chance or design!? Have not the things many hold as truth been created with purpose, serving only the few who created it!? What measure is the journey, of seeking truth, if it be from only one path!? I say, if comfort is what one seeks, they shall find it; and if comfort is obtained then they will surely have it.

[Hawkwind]

Posted by king anthony (here)
Has not human arrogance complicated the uncomplicated!?

Yes.

Has not thought been clouded through deceit either by chance or design!?

Yes.

Have not the things many hold as truth been created with purpose, serving only the few who created it!?

Hell, yes!

What measure is the journey, of seeking truth, if it be from only one path!?

Though there are many paths up the mountain, the view from the top is the same.

I say, if comfort is what one seeks, they shall find it; and if comfort is obtained then they will surely have it.

"The lust for comfort, that stealthy thing that enters the house as a guest, and then becomes a host, and then a master."- Khalil Galbrain

I agree entirely that each must find their own path and seek their own truth. I'd also agree that each must guard against the complacency of mistaking any given degree of truth for the journey's end. If I'm still here, I haven't learned everything I need to learn by being here.

(Sorry if this has gotten off topic. Suggest we either take this to PMs or start a new thread if it seems useful to discuss further.)