The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

[cloud9]

Dear Lord,
don't you think is it amazing what some of us do just for being right? Why is it so important to you?
This thread has been derailed and it's now a waste of time just because you need to right, even when you could be wrong....

[Flash]

Well I have been reading all the posts.

Quite naively in his writing for Bill, he obviously did not mean any harm, even if some was done, much inadvertently and not on the racism aspect, imho, but on the separativeness programmation we have been ingrained with. It is absolutely pervasive, frequent and we don't see its pervasiveness usually.

Quite steady in his interventions Lord `Sidious, while caring for getting down the victim mentality and getting down the separativeness humans always use, even in every day language (yes, separativeness is that pernicious and even if Bill did not mean harm, he was well within the program parameters, which we are all in quite often).

Also quite steady Lord Sidious in his desire to improve Avalon altogether, even if the means may seem drastics to some.

You know, separativeness is everywhere, and half humanity has deeply suffered from it for milleniums, over and above all the colonisations, wars, and destruction every single people (race or group) had inflicted on this planet (think Gengis Khan, think the Japanese in China, think the Russian in Georgia, think the Kmer Rouge in Cambodia, think Kenya, think Yougoslavia, think the Aztecs with other tribes around all killed or assimilated). The white man does not have the monopoly on racism and destruction. The full half of humanity that were litterally ostracised and pushed down for milleniums are women. So while we are at it, are we going to reproach it to white men again?

I am a woman, I come from a subgroup ethnically because of the language and culture, I have been segregated as a woman (the glass ceiling in corporations is very thick), as a French Canadian (sorry for my fellow Canadian, but you are tough when we are in your provinces), as a white while living in Mexico (and around some blacks in Montreal), and as an American while in Turkey, and as a Catholic in Southern US. The worst being the women stuff (not the race), it still leaves me speechless sometimes. And now age discrimination is around the corner.

To me, all that is separativeness - I usually come through it even if disagreable and I understand where it is from. And yes, our language carries it, verbally and through pictures it makes in our brains.

I propose the following: when we see this separativeness thinking here on Avalon, we gently remind our fellow Avalonians how difficult it is for some and how destructive this programmation is. Why not helping each other see the light. AND LETS GET RID OF THE VICTIM ARCHETYPE PLEASE. We are all equal, all one.

thanks for reading, my speech is over,
Flash

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by cloud9 (here)
Dear Lord,
don't you think is it amazing what some of us do just for being right? Why is it so important to you?
This thread has been derailed and it's now a waste of time just because you need to right, even when you could be wrong....

Why do you assume that I need to be right?
Where did that come from?
And this thread isn't derailed anymore, this is split.

[Davidallany]

Dear Lord,
don't you think is it amazing what some of us do just for being right? Why is it so important to you?
This thread has been derailed and it's now a waste of time just because you need to right, even when you could be wrong....

Is time so important that you are willing to hurl stones at your brother Human? nothing is worth hurting a creature. There is no need to to feel guilty, there is a need to calm, breath and smile. That's it

[Mike]

Siddious...wow. that's all i can say. wow. i've never seen someone try so hard to be offended in my life. at best your arguments are bizarre, self indulgent over-dramatics. at worst they are the deliberate first steps toward forum suicide - an attempt to play hero before joining your friends at Nexus.

there is a disturbing trend developing here lately, a variation on the ol David Icke problem-reaction-solution paradigm. it goes something like this...

problemccurs when someone takes something Bill/Inelia says/does and spins the sh#t out of it in order to create an intended slanderous effect.

reaction: spinner indulges in phony indignation and victimhood.

solution: the solution or intended result is to nurture a climate of victimhood in order to justify the inevitable mud slinging towards Bill or Inelia, or lately to give would be martyr'd forum hero's enough contrived ammunition to whine and cry about over at Nexus. here's the catch 22: once the spinner is called out in the form of a vacation or banishment, they cry "censorship" or witchhunt" and the whole cycle repeats itself. its a self perpetuating rhythm of madness - one that some are consciously and unconsciously encouraging.

Siddious you brought up programming - aren't we programmed to be "offended". you can't turn on a tv without someone being "outraged" over so and so's comments. inevitably, someone "demands an apology"- an empty, meaningless request that is usually followed by an equally meaningless "statement" by the publicist...errr...offender. its a tiresome formula that resolves nothing and only serves to buff the glossy image of the politically correct.

look, if you're trying to get banned, please spare us the pageantry and exit stage left. if not, please get back to what you do best: posting interesting information with wit and intelligence.

[sepia]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
You know why I rock the boat?
I care.
If I did not, I wouldn't bother.

Lord Sid

I have highest respect from the discussion you're leading here,
how you're using your intelligence
to clarify principles that are beyond opinions
your courage and consequence to go all the way.

Clarity is an instrument of love.

Sincerely, Sepia

[NancyV]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?

There you go generalizing and putting all of "you guys" into the same category. Speaking for myself I don't need to get over anything or heal from anything, but thanks for thinking you're helping.

Lord Sidious: I never said he was a racist, I know what the word means and I bet the majority of you don't. I said he made a statement that was racist, that isn't the same thing. And I did also say that I believe him when he said he meant something different with those words, that isn't what I was trying to get him to confront. What we write/say and what we mean can be very different and THAT is a major issue we are having here and on nexus.

The issues are so different that they can't begin to compare. If I felt like taking the time I would put Bill's innocuous statement on one side then on the other side I would put all the nasty and vicious personal attacks posted on NEXUS. Then we could see how they balance. What Bill meant was most likely not much different from what he said. Maybe a wee tiny little minuscule slight nuance of a difference but you pretended that it was a HUGELY offensive statement in order to further your teaching agenda. That's another reason it won't work. Your examples must make sense in order for a lesson to be learned. They can't be pretend issues or magnified all out of proportion or too many will not fall into the trap of learning what you're attempting to teach.

Lord Sidious:...It is a necessary stage that you HAVE to go through to detox and you can't do it without this phase. This is similar to what I am trying to do with you lot. In future, I would ask you to try and figure out what I am doing if it is not apparent to you. Many of you posting in the thread are still reacting from your conditioning and fighting me even as I detox you.

So this is sort of like being handcuffed and having a forced enema? Yeah, I had a kung fu teacher like that, a really nasty old man. Unfortunately those tactics never work with me and he finally gave up using them and we ended up friends. I would suspect those tactics also don't work with Bill, but that's just a guess.

Lord Sidious: Nuggets, the lot of ya.
And bill is the biggest nugget of the lot, maybe even a double nugget.
Me using the wrong tactic at the wrong time MAY qualify my approach as nuggetry, but that is still only an allegation.

Effective tactics must have correct timing and use valid tools/examples which cannot be so easily rejected by so many you are wanting to teach. So I do "allege" that the tactics were wrong and the timing was off. But I will give you an A+ for effort. Even a very evolved teacher can often learn something, believe it or not.

Lord Sidious: The message was not received correctly with you, that is for sure, I can say that what I meant and what you think I meant are not the same. I can also say that I think you are fighting the detox and denying that you have toxins. But you do, we all do, even if they are different ones to each others.

Yes you are correct. After many years of one type of detox or another I can now say I LOVE my remaining toxins and am quite comfortable in our symbiotic relationship. Heck, just being alive in the 3D world is toxic, but the only cure for that is death. So I will remain happily swimming around in this toxic stew. Thanks for trying to teach us a lesson in your own inimitable style. It was greatly appreciated and quite entertaining.

Nancy

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Chinaski (here)
Siddious...wow. that's all i can say. wow. i've never seen someone try so hard to be offended in my life. at best your arguments are bizarre, self indulgent over-dramatics. at worst they are the deliberate first steps toward forum suicide - an attempt to play hero before joining your friends at Nexus.

there is a disturbing trend developing here lately, a variation on the ol David Icke problem-reaction-solution paradigm. it goes something like this...

problemccurs when someone takes something Bill/Inelia says/does and spins the sh#t out of it in order to create an intended slanderous effect.

reaction: spinner indulges in phony indignation and victimhood.

solution: the solution or intended result is to nurture a climate of victimhood in order to justify the inevitable mud slinging towards Bill or Inelia, or lately to give would be martyr'd forum hero's enough contrived ammunition to whine and cry about over at Nexus. here's the catch 22: once the spinner is called out in the form of a vacation or banishment, they cry "censorship" or witchhunt" and the whole cycle repeats itself. its a self perpetuating rhythm of madness - one that some are consciously and unconsciously encouraging.

Siddious you brought up programming - aren't we programmed to be "offended". you can't turn on a tv without someone being "outraged" over so and so's comments. inevitably, someone "demands an apology"- an empty, meaningless request that is usually followed by an equally meaningless "statement" by the publicist...errr...offender. its a tiresome formula that resolves nothing and only serves to buff the glossy image of the politically correct.

look, if you're trying to get banned, please spare us the pageantry and exit stage left. if not, please get back to what you do best: posting interesting information with wit and intelligence.

By all means, take this as you wish, that is your right.
You attribute things to me that I didn't intend, that is about you, not me.
I am not a member at nexus and I don't forsee me joining, this isn't about me, this is about bill and avalon.
Can't you see that?

Posted by NancyV (here)

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?

There you go generalizing and putting all of "you guys" into the same category. Speaking for myself I don't need to get over anything or heal from anything, but thanks for thinking you're helping.

Lord Sidious: I never said he was a racist, I know what the word means and I bet the majority of you don't. I said he made a statement that was racist, that isn't the same thing. And I did also say that I believe him when he said he meant something different with those words, that isn't what I was trying to get him to confront. What we write/say and what we mean can be very different and THAT is a major issue we are having here and on nexus.

The issues are so different that they can't begin to compare. If I felt like taking the time I would put Bill's innocuous statement on one side then on the other side I would put all the nasty and vicious personal attacks posted on NEXUS. Then we could see how they balance. What Bill meant was most likely not much different from what he said. Maybe a wee tiny little minuscule slight nuance of a difference but you pretended that it was a HUGELY offensive statement in order to further your teaching agenda. That's another reason it won't work. Your examples must make sense in order for a lesson to be learned. They can't be pretend issues or magnified all out of proportion or too many will not fall into the trap of learning what you're attempting to teach.

Lord Sidious:...It is a necessary stage that you HAVE to go through to detox and you can't do it without this phase. This is similar to what I am trying to do with you lot. In future, I would ask you to try and figure out what I am doing if it is not apparent to you. Many of you posting in the thread are still reacting from your conditioning and fighting me even as I detox you.

So this is sort of like being handcuffed and having a forced enema? Yeah, I had a kung fu teacher like that, a really nasty old man. Unfortunately those tactics never work with me and he finally gave up using them and we ended up friends. I would suspect those tactics also don't work with Bill, but that's just a guess.

Lord Sidious: Nuggets, the lot of ya.
And bill is the biggest nugget of the lot, maybe even a double nugget.
Me using the wrong tactic at the wrong time MAY qualify my approach as nuggetry, but that is still only an allegation.

Effective tactics must have correct timing and use valid tools/examples which cannot be so easily rejected by so many you are wanting to teach. So I do "allege" that the tactics were wrong and the timing was off. But I will give you an A+ for effort. Even a very evolved teacher can often learn something, believe it or not.

Lord Sidious: The message was not received correctly with you, that is for sure, I can say that what I meant and what you think I meant are not the same. I can also say that I think you are fighting the detox and denying that you have toxins. But you do, we all do, even if they are different ones to each others.

Yes you are correct. After many years of one type of detox or another I can now say I LOVE my remaining toxins and am quite comfortable in our symbiotic relationship. Heck, just being alive in the 3D world is toxic, but the only cure for that is death. So I will remain happily swimming around in this toxic stew. Thanks for trying to teach us a lesson in your own inimitable style. It was greatly appreciated and quite entertaining.

Nancy

Same for you, you can take my posts any way you wish, that is your right.
You can even attack me for it, I am not going to attack you back.
This isn't about rep or that rubbish, this is about the future.
Remember how some of us think there is something coming?
How do we prepare and lead others if we can't lead ourselves?

[Carmody]

sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

To clarify, I'm as about as white as it is possible to be.

French, scottish, english, german, danish, russian -Polish. (and a few sprinkles of other bits) I'm as white as the driven snow. My ass squeaks when I walk.

I'm not even remotely offended or even noticing how Bill wrote that.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Carmody (here)
sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

Sorry, but you don't even read the thread.
This is a different thread now, specifically for this.
Could you guys please get your facts straight first, then post?
So now you say you aren't offended, I am happy for you.
What does that have to do with my posts?

[Davidallany]

an attempt to play hero before joining your friends at Nexus.

look, if you're trying to get banned, please spare us the pageantry and exit stage left

Please brother, this is not helping at all, adding wood to the fire, to what end? let's move on in the spirit of friendship and peace. Here is to peace.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=fSyhJ7hmxWQ

[Lord Sidious]

So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

[Carmody]

I edited my post, sid.

as for the rest, if I ever get to your side of the globe, we'll go out for a beer.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Carmody (here)
I edited my post, sid.

as for the rest, if I ever get to your side of the globe, we'll go out for a beer.

Only if it is newkie brown.

[sepia]

Posted by Carmody (here)
I edited my post, sid.

as for the rest, if I ever get to your side of the globe, we'll go out for a beer.

Good idea.

Rob - you made many people think - that's probably the best result possible -

the seed is put into the ground - it takes time to grow.

Maybe it's the right moment to brush the dust from the clothes and leave the battleground.

I hope you all find peace in your hearts.

Love, Sepia

[Karma Ninja]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)
There is some sensitivity being displayed here that is perhaps misplaced. I read this thread in it's original form and was shocked to see the conversation degrade into a silly and childish debate about one person's interpretation of Bills comments. I found it absurd that someone could take such offense to an innocuous comment. The point Bill was trying to make was obvious and the rebuttal was obvious in it's nature as well. This thread was something that saddened me and reminded me of why I was hesitant to join in the first place.

In my view, there is a long understood and accepted history of foreign countries invading, murdering and displacing a lands native people. These crimes against humanity have left scars that are impossible to erase without a concerted effort from the future generations of both sides to acknowledge past transgressions and to collectively agree to move forward and to forgive the past. If a member of the future generation refuses or does not wish to accept blame or show regret or feel responsible for the crimes of the past than that is their prerogative. They should not be held accountable. They must also accept that they can never be part of the solution and only will be seen as wanting to ignore the past. To the people who suffered, the ones who refuse to accept our ancestors crimes will always be part of the problem. Acknowledging and learning from the past is essential to a societies growth. I think Bills comment reflected this knowledge.

Those who suffered most will have a hard time moving on if they feel the current generation simply wants to sweep the crimes of the past under the rug. I am part Japanese Canadian and part British Canadian. My father was born in a Japanese internment camp during the second world war. My grandparents, aunts and uncles were treated horribly, stripped of their rights and property and robbed of their dignity. There were some who could never forgive and never moved on. My family made it a goal to forgive the government for what happened, forgive the people for spitting on and beating us up, forgive them for following what a society saw as acceptable at the time. As time went on, Canadian people moved on and eventually, when we looked back at what happened in the 40's, we saw that a horrible wrong had been committed. The Canadian government apologized and offered compensation for what happened. My father made it clear that we must accept the apology and embrace our neighbours. Our neighbours embraced us back. It led to him falling in love with a British Canadian woman and my mother learned it was possible to love him back. It led to me being born. We offered no resistance to the apology and we are now a valuable thread in the Canadian tapestry. This took decades and some still have not fully accepted the past or chosen to learn ALL of the lessons that come with it. Those who refuse are on both sides. They hold an anger in their souls that keeps them from completely opening their hearts and minds. Today I am proud to be a Canadian. I am proud to be my father and mothers son.

On a separate note, I share the shame of the white people who know the horrible crimes the British and French settlers committed against our Native people. Many Native Canadians or Indigenous people still are not willing to forgive and move on. Many will never be able to. Alcohol, drugs and a new monetary system have left our Native people far from where they were when the settlers first arrived. Many Native people want to move on but there are also lots of Canadians who talk about the 'lazy and welfare dependent Native people who pay no taxes and live off of this country'. (This is not how I feel but merely a sample of the comments I hear all the time) I think both sides have some forgiving to do and could learn more from each other than can be imagined. I hold faith that the divide will be conquered and we will all learn to live peacefully. I want to see our Native Canadians celebrated for their rich and beautiful history like they were during the last Winter Olympics. I have the utmost faith that it will happen.

Generalizations are just that, general and not pointed. They shouldn't be interpreted as such in order to further ones own beliefs. Aboriginals...white men...asian people...black people...whatever. No apologies are needed here only cooler heads and a dedication to mature, thoughtful discussion.

Peace as always. You are all my brothers and sisters. We are here for a reason.

With all due respect to your post, the reason that people can't move on is they don't know what they are trying to move on from.
Your post is exactly what I was talking about.
As an example, the middle east will NEVER have peace.
NEVER.
Until we let go of this paradigm of racism/guilt and realise it is simply a control mechanism.
Until we do that, we are wasting our time, they are pulling our strings.

My post was definitely NOT what you were talking about. I disagree with your motives and intentions but I support your right to voice them.

You missed the point I was trying to make. The decision of why to move on doesn't have to be mutually agreed upon by both sides. It must simply be wanted by both sides. The two disagreeing sides must agree that moving on is what is needed. My family decided to forgive past transgressions and my parents marriage took place 20 years before the Canadian government agreed to apologize. Our decision was made unilaterally. The apology was not needed but it was accepted. It really did make the healing and moving on a lot easier.

Just because you see the history of the land of Australia as none of your doing does not mean you are free from the blame others might feel. Nor does it make you responsible. What I made a point of saying was if you want to be part of the solution it would help to acknowledge the past. The shame you might feel does not come from being a white person in Australia, but rather from being a human in a world that can be so cruel. This is what could drive you to help your country heal properly. This is what could help our world heal. We see our mistakes in the past and we vow to correct them. You were not there for the past but you might sit idly as more crimes are committed in the present. Trust me...one just happened while I wrote this.

My shame is not from anything I did or my family did. I am part Asian and White but I am all Canadian! Honestly in the end "being Canadian' does not mean as much to me as it used to since I am more of a 'one world' kind of thinker now. I bear no specific responsibility for what happened but I carry the memories in my heart.

This "they" you refer to does not control me to do this or else "they" would be failing as there are still white supremacists and black supremacists and Jew Haters and Muslim haters all over the world. There are haters everywhere. All of these mentalities are flawed in my opinion but their holders are not following what "they" want them to do. If "they" were using this supposed "racism/guilt paradigm" than "they" would be failing miserably. This is what you use to justify your thinking and all that is fine. Please don't lump me together with that mentality. I don't think "they" would be pleased!

As well since my beliefs are contrary to what 'they' want I must be on the right path. You used the term 'divide and conquer' in one of your posts and I used it recently as well. It is a tactic of war. I want people to get together against our oppressors not remain divided. Respectfully...

Peace is the goal, love is the chariot that gets you there!

[Anchor]

The forum dilemma.

Consider a "statement" is made on a forum for debate.

That "statement" can be perceived with a meaning ranging from the intended to the unintended. Among a set of readers there will be likely be representation across the spectrum of possibilities.

Agreement or disagreement with the perceived meaning results will result in a debate which may be so far from the original intention it beggars the original "statement" makers belief.

Abstract range of possible outcomes to the "statement"...

1) People agree on the basis of the intended meaning
2) People disagree on the basis of the intended meaning
3) People agree but on the basis of a perceived meaning which was other than intented!
4) People disagree but also on the basis of a meaning which was other than intended!

See what the vagaries of language set us up for?

Forums are a disaster waiting to happen, and as we can see they frequently do happen

Also, I would suggest that this is one of the chinks in the armor of forums like this, and it is ruthlessly exploited by people with agenda's.

Misunderstanding is rife, but it can be resolved.

In all of this APOLOGY is not necessary for progress (but it is an accepted civility and respect observed in many circles of people that fundamentally want to get along)

However what is more important, regardless of agreement or disagreement is that the intended meaning is clarified so that the misunderstandings are reduced to the minimum possible and as expediently as possible.

Feathers may get ruffled but this should not become a stick to beat people with.

Otherwise people with covert agendas WIN.

BOTH parties to these misunderstandings have to try to be as clear as possible to work out if it is worth agreeing or disagreeing.

Before then knee-jerk reactions cause more problems than they solve (as well as giving more "oxygen" to the ego than it deserves!)

Please be kind.

John..

[Davidallany]

To clarify, I'm as about as white as it is possible to be.

French, scottish, english, german, danish, russian -Polish

You are never white enough until you have the remaining following caucasian bloods, Arabs, Turk and Afghan.

[Mike]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Posted by Carmody (here)
sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

....

My ass squeaks when I walk.

...

Actually no; he's not de-railing this thread. This thread, if you look at the subject of the thread, is exactly for this purpose.

As for your arse squeaking... is that a white attribute? I've not heard that one before.