The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

[Noble Hops]

Can we just sum up this thread by saying that some people have more of a white guilt complex than others?

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Noble Hops (here)
Can we just sum up this thread by saying that some people have more of a white guilt complex than others?

We could, but that would be only 5% of the story as it is now.

[Mad Hatter]

Mornin all, Mad Hatter dons his sceptic hat...

Ethnic cleansing, affirmative action battles, immigration restrictions'all place race at center stage in contemporary life. Race is so fundamental to discussions of poverty, education, crime, music, sports that, whether we be racist or anti-racist, we rarely question its reality. Yet recent scientific evidence suggests that the idea of race is a biological myth, as outdated as the widely held medieval belief that the sun revolved around the earth.Anthropologists, biologists and geneticists have increasingly found that, biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race." Modern science is decoding the genetic puzzle of DNA and human variation - and finding that skin color really is only skin deep.

source http://www.racematters.org/racethepowerofanillusion.htm and of course many many others.

So it seems that science has / will be moving on from this set of labels. Does anyone else find usage of the term 'race' ironic because of it's competitive connotations and all that comes with that. As some wag put it 'Science progresses one funeral at a time' so perhaps if we where all to hack that subconcious meme by only using the term human family in our language instead, a change for the better may come about that bit quicker...

As for those who still seem to think the rather emmotive film Rabbit Proof fence is actual history, well yes it is if you subscribe to the Robert Manne historian camp. I would respectfully suggest that you expand your views somewhat and read something from the opposing Keith Windschuttle camp. At least you might then have a better map of the terrain in order to make a decision about where to place the peg for anchoring your emotion on this subject.

One thing I must say that completely stunned me about Aboriginal culture was their ability, without a written history, to devleop a method of preventing the effects of interbreeding over 40,000 years within such a small gene pool. Perhaps lessons some Royal Familys need to heed??

Cheers

[Noble Hops]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)

Posted by Noble Hops (here)
Can we just sum up this thread by saying that some people have more of a white guilt complex than others?

We could, but that would be only 5% of the story as it is now.

Sid, I think your finger slipped and missed typing the nine in front of that five.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Noble Hops (here)

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)

Posted by Noble Hops (here)
Can we just sum up this thread by saying that some people have more of a white guilt complex than others?

We could, but that would be only 5% of the story as it is now.

Sid, I think your finger slipped and missed typing the nine in front of that five.

No, that was how this started, but I have moved this on now.
Or I have tried to.

[mondaze]

the fundamental issue is a linguistic one. We have ceased to use language with care and accuracy. This is down to metanymic thinking. By the way, I'm not blaming anyone for this. We are constantly bombarded in all media with metanymic shorthand, and most have not been taught to discern between metanym and reality. I realise that this is very dull and may seem semantic but until people begin to understand how language and logic is being debased by the parroting of phrases without breaking them down, then the further away from truth and reality our culture will slip. example? weapons of mass destruction... which then becomes simply wmd's. Over and over again the Bush monkeys spewed the weapons of mass destruction mantra across the media until it became a sigil which provided a reason for them to evoke their shock and awe... i could go on ad infinitum. if any one is interested this long and hard to read essay
http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cach...t=0,5&as_vis=1
will open your eyes.

[g.k.r]

thanks lord sid that you did think about things after too, im not here to defend people, only reason i commented was because i think the point was taken incorectly, im glad that the thread has turned out the way it has too, theres lots to discuss on everything and if someone can unite everyone then it can only do good, anyway, debate is essential really, just hope people dont take too many things to heart and as long as everyone respects each other will be a good outcome.. thanks

[Decibellistics]

Race is not real.

It is a social construct and form of institutional violence. There is culture....but there really is no such thing as race. Our DNA is about 99% identical. You have to go waaaaaaaaaaaay out of the way on the human genome to find the gene that makes you look a certain way.

Unfortunately we live in a world where reparations and affirmative action and things of the such exist.....are these things a bad idea? At face value no, its a good thing. But when people are being placed in areas of work or what have you based on the color of their skin and not on the merit of their abilities then we run into a problem of sorts......We are continuing the spectrum of the social construct. No matter whether it is a good thing or bad.

So in theory, we have to break down every social construct that has been presented to us that causes any form of institutional violence......

The fact of the matter is, Icke is right in saying that we are the human race.

Not Black, Caucasian, Hispanic, Asian, or what have you.

I think the point to be made here, is that color no matter what..........should not influence a statement. Yes there has been targeted violence between certain groups and nationalities of different color. But in general you have to take the color card out of the picture.

These people have nothing other than their own self interest for whatever agenda they are trying to accomplish.

I thought this was a good general overview.

# Glibness and Superficial Charm

# Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

# Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

# Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

# Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

# Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

# Incapacity for Love

# Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

# Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

# Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

# Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

# Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

# Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

# Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

# Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

So in reality......this is what we are having to battle. Narcissistic Sociopaths that are really good con artists.

Race has nothing to do with any of what we are describing, and yet we have been taught to think that it is race that is the reason why these things happen.

I think language is extremely faulty in even attempting to describe any form of race related issue. Because we have been taught that race exists, which is does not, but we continue to hold up the concept with the language we use to describe it. Therefore one has to completely let go of the concept of race......

If you think of terms of race, take whatever racist slur you can think of.....and substitute it for ****ty sociopathic sick human.

Race is absolutely non-existent. They just want you to think it does so they can keep you separated.

A white suburb is just as much of a ghetto as the inner city, unfortunately one ghetto is way nicer than the other.

We often times look at the majority of world conflict being caused by the white devil lol. But look at Sudan, and look at Gaza, and look at Nazi Germany, and so on. At face value it is eugenics and racism.....but if you look below the facade, It has to deal with sociopathic tendencies, insecurity, self interest, power, control, resources.

I dunno....I'm rambling now......bye bye.

It's time to let go of this faulty thinking....and that goes for all of it. We don't have any room for this **** any longer.

[mondaze]

Posted by Decibellistics (here)
Race is not real.

It is a social construct and form of institutional violence. There is culture....but there really is no such thing as race. Our DNA is about 99% identical. You have to go waaaaaaaaaaaay out of the way on the human genome to find the gene that makes you look a certain way.

Unfortunately we live in a world where reparations and affirmative action and things of the such exist.....are these things a bad idea? At face value no, its a good thing. But when people are being placed in areas of work or what have you based on the color of their skin and not on the merit of their abilities then we run into a problem of sorts......We are continuing the spectrum of the social construct. No matter whether it is a good thing or bad.

So in theory, we have to break down every social construct that has been presented to us that causes any form of institutional violence......

The fact of the matter is, Icke is right in saying that we are the human race.

Not Black, Caucasian, Hispanic, Asian, or what have you.

I think the point to be made here, is that color no matter what..........should not influence a statement. Yes there has been targeted violence between certain groups and nationalities of different color. But in general you have to take the color card out of the picture.

These people have nothing other than their own self interest for whatever agenda they are trying to accomplish.

I thought this was a good general overview.

# Glibness and Superficial Charm

# Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

# Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

# Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

# Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

# Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

# Incapacity for Love

# Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

# Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

# Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

# Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

# Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

# Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

# Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

# Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

So in reality......this is what we are having to battle. Narcissistic Sociopaths that are really good con artists.

Race has nothing to do with any of what we are describing, and yet we have been taught to think that it is race that is the reason why these things happen.

I think language is extremely faulty in even attempting to describe any form of race related issue. Because we have been taught that race exists, which is does not, but we continue to hold up the concept with the language we use to describe it. Therefore one has to completely let go of the concept of race......

If you think of terms of race, take whatever racist slur you can think of.....and substitute it for ****ty sociopathic sick human.

Race is absolutely non-existent. They just want you to think it does so they can keep you separated.

A white suburb is just as much of a ghetto as the inner city, unfortunately one ghetto is way nicer than the other.

We often times look at the majority of world conflict being caused by the white devil lol. But look at Sudan, and look at Gaza, and look at Nazi Germany, and so on. At face value it is eugenics and racism.....but if you look below the facade, It has to deal with sociopathic tendencies, insecurity, self interest, power, control, resources.

I dunno....I'm rambling now......bye bye.

a 2nd daniel say I.... misquote from merchant of venice... (another time racial slander) wisdom from one so young, makes me have some hope for the future.

[Decibellistics]

Thanks mondaze......

It's tricky, I certainly am not getting to hopeful, and at the same time I am......Herein lies the problem......you can say the same thing 8 billion different ways, mean the exact same thing each time......and only a few people are going to be able to understand concept that is embedded within the language.

Which means that nobody will ever be able to get the message across in a single sentence, let alone an entire book.

This shows the faultiness of language. Because the phrases, and metaphors, and interesting nuances of language are unable to be understood universally. Which also points towards our separation from unity and one another......
The only thing you can do is plant seeds, and hopefully an experience arises that finally allows that seed to germinate, and then maybe that one individual will understand what you meant.

This is an individual process.....you create your own reality.

[K626]

Posted by Decibellistics (here)
Thanks mondaze......

It's tricky, I certainly am not getting to hopeful, and at the same time I am......Herein lies the problem......you can say the same thing 8 billion different ways, mean the exact same thing each time......and only a few people are going to be able to understand concept that is embedded within the language.

Which means that nobody will ever be able to get the message across in a single sentence, let alone an entire book.

This shows the faultiness of language. Because the phrases, and metaphors, and interesting nuances of language are unable to be understood universally. Which also points towards our separation from unity and one another......
The only thing you can do is plant seeds, and hopefully an experience arises that finally allows that seed to germinate, and then maybe that one individual will understand what you meant.

This is an individual process.....you create your own reality.

Great post Deci. Excellent reading.

I can't stress enough how much race is premium tool for the PTB to divide and conquer consciousness and fraternity.

cheers

K

[kersley]

Erm, my family are white australians, no?
And no, I don't need to justify my beliefs to you.
Or Bill, or anyone.
Whether I am right or wrong is very subjective.
I would challenge you to find anything I have said on this forum that could be said to be racist and ask the moderation staff if anything like that was removed.


Do you dare me to? Am i that ignorant ?....

[NancyV]

Posted by SEAM (here)
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something." — Plato

My favorite tarot card is the Fool. "The Fool can represent the desire for rebirth, or making a new start to life, but with the proviso that the future path is not mapped out. The Fool is Nothing and Everything. It is the Empty set that contains all within it. The Fool is associated with fertility and the primal energy of Spring with the connotations of birth, rebirth, and transformation. As a strategy, the Fool is all about avoiding the common path that everyone treads. It is finding new viewpoints, new ideas, shocking concepts, beliefs, or views. The Fool represents crazy wisdom that shocks the listener into new states of consciousness."

It seems to me like the Fool card might be a good match for Lord Sidious also. Like the Fool I will express my viewpoint and of course we all have our unique views.

The urge to "unite" may seem to be a noble endeavor, but I contend that division is a natural state AND the perceived differences within the divisions are also a continuum. (a coherent whole characterized as a collection, sequence or progression of values or elements varying by minute degrees. "good" and "bad" (light and dark) stand at opposite ends of a continuum.") So what we often perceive as dividing is just a minute difference in the continuum, the coherent whole.

Everything divides, cells divide continuously. Division is natural and ongoing. The Source divides as it sends itself into the creation and division is the natural ebb and flow of life on every level of the creation. Yet we are still part of the Source as we are a part of everything we have done and everyone we have interacted with. To not divide would be to stagnate, in fact we can't NOT divide.

This is partially why I also consider natural racism (as opposed to learned hatred of another race) to be another process that is normal in this world. It is a survival trait for all animal species. It comes from being cautious of "other", either another species or a variety of your own species that is different and possibly a danger to your survival. Instead of racism we could call it otherism. Nature designed us to survive and being in a body, we are vulnerable to the body being killed or hurt. Those who are "other", not like us, cause us to be naturally suspicious because we don't know what kind of a threat they could be or even IF they are a threat to our physical survival.

Racism or Otherism has been with us since this world began. Tribes are always suspicious of or cautious of other tribes, even if they all look alike. If they look markedly different, maybe a different skin pigmentation, they are even more suspicious or cautious. Thus we have racism. Differences exist. Denial of differences seems to me to be a denial of reality. Animals kill other animals or are very cautious of them if they don't know them, if they are not a part of their herd, flock, group. A murder of crows kills other birds and will even attack small animals. (maybe that's why they're called a "murder" instead of a flock). So are they racist? No, they are just being natural Otherists, as are humans. They are surviving using their natural instincts.

I see no need for Camelot, Avalon and Nexus to be united as one website or with one outlook. Dividing into other websites was a natural process. Emotional reactions to that are each person's choice. As we reach higher vibrational frequencies we will unite completely when we merge and become more whole. We cannot erase what look like and feel like divisions while in our physical bodies yet we still seem to aspire to this impossible task. We innately know or remember the joys of unification and think we should achieve it here in the physical. One can promote the concept that we are not or should not be divided here on earth but that would be a denial of reality.

We are always divided in the Creation AND concurrently united in the continuum.

[Decibellistics]

Agreed, but when the differences are constructed so that they are seen as a negative trait, it causes all sorts of problems that we can see today.

Biology is one thing, but stuff that has been made up by people isn't really real.............it has just been reinforced so much into making us think it is real.

So within that statement.....yes I am denying reality. Because I ain't from round these parts....and I choose not to involve myself in a reality that is based in thinking something is real when it really isn't.

The art of mind control.
We have reached a point in time where we no longer have to worry about surviving per say. The technological advances we have achieved guarantee our survival. But the time has shifted from survival to control.....and now it must shift from control to collaboration. Because without people collaborating and working together, we are ultimately ****ed.

So we have to be willing to let go of these traditional forms of viewing the world and move into a quantum esque realization that far exceeds our understanding of the absolute unified connection we have to each other, the cosmos, the air we breathe, and the vibrations around us.

[New Dawn]

I've not read every single page, but come on guys, no drama - we've got Eastenders for that, have we not? Avalon need to work together, otherwise this is not as an important arena as it should be, is it!.

I of course have my opinion too, but its just one of many, and there's more important issues at present, isn't there, so lets just look at it this way -

I think everyone here adding to this thread means well, but we disagree - it happens everywhere. Right or wrong (which is in the eye of the beholder), we all are trying to make the world a better place, and are all probably here because we are the few that can be bothered to care after having our eyes opened to a new reality, and as tired as I am of repeating myself, I hope at least one of you takes in what I'm saying to make it worth something! In short: WE are the change, Lets do it, and lets do it now, together

If we have to put a few differences aside, its worth it for the prize of the bigger picture, and the fact that we all are in this together, like it or not, and you should like it

In the same way a comedian can talk about things that some may call racist jokes (if you start censoring a joke, the punchline does not work), we should do the same. If the comedians intent is good, the joke is ok, right? For me it is anyway.

I'm part Greek, I've heard my fair share of Greek jokes, most of them are quite funny actually, so I laugh, because I know the intent is good, same with other jokes related to race - I'll laugh if its funny, and not bad natured in intent.

We have to stop being scared to speak in case something is considered to be a negative race comment. Why would anyone here have a problem with race? If you do, why the hell are you here? Come back when you've entered adulthood. But I doubt anyone here is, so lets talk freely, one living being to another.

What do you all think eh? Sounds simple doesn't it!

SORT OF off topic:

Many people have tried to sit me down at tables with Turkish people to see what happens. I had one (now ex) mate who told a girl I'd never date her because she was Turkish lol. First thing I always do when stupid things like this happen is hug them and have a chat with them. They usually go away wondering what happened. I can't do the whole 'you invaded my land' thing - wrong, we gotta bury past beefs, and move forward together. The only way we're going to stop focusing on our difference is if we all get off our high horse (and don't worry, I may be Greek, but there's no army in my high horse, nor is my horse a gift)

Eric Cartman would call me a 'God damn hippie', wouldn't he haha!!

[Deborah (ahamkara)]

Sometimes it is just as dangerous to take offense as to give offense.

People determined to be angry will always find reason. Those unable to examine the innate fear of "the other" or of what is different (real or imagined), will always respond out of that fear. As always, the work lies within, and the change manifests without. Namaste.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by kersley (here)
Erm, my family are white australians, no?
And no, I don't need to justify my beliefs to you.
Or Bill, or anyone.
Whether I am right or wrong is very subjective.
I would challenge you to find anything I have said on this forum that could be said to be racist and ask the moderation staff if anything like that was removed.


Do you dare me to? Am i that ignorant ?....

You can if you want, but that is passed.
This thread has moved on.
Let me ask you this, what plans do you have to survive the cataclysm?

Posted by New Dawn (here)
I've not read every single page, but come on guys, no drama - we've got Eastenders for that, have we not? Avalon need to work together, otherwise this is not as an important arena as it should be, is it!.

Thanks for that, I agree 110%, but, why not include camelot AND nexus?
We all want to survive, no?

[Amer]

Posted by Teakai
Is the issue about...race?

Or is race just the cover for something deeper?

Posted by Devilpigeon
It's evolved into something deeper.

Posted by Lord Sidious
There is a ****fight going on, but this thread isn't it, it is designed by me to help to end this.

Posted by Lord Sidious
The environment is going to be devastated, who really cares who did what?
Who cares why they did it?
The population WILL be reduced down to a small number and not that far away.
What are YOU going to do to get through to the other side with those you care about?

Posted by Lord Sidious
You have five to ten years more.

Posted by Doublehelix
Can I ask who or what your source of information is for you to come to such a conclusion ???

Posted by Lord Sidious
Atticus.

And so it would appear in the end Rob- and correct me if I'm wrong- the deeper issue upon us is not in the debate about race and sensitivity to language per se.
It is not about Bill and yet it is.
It is not about the Camelot/Avalon/Nexus splits and yet it is.
You were offended in the beginning but seized on the momentum/attention to focus us on a perceived cancer among us that few really comprehend and more importantly few want to acknowledge.
However the acknowledgement and healing of this perceived cancer is to be instrumental if not vital in preparing us for a future catastrophic event that will launch itself upon us in five to ten years.
And you have been privy to this via Atticus.

And now you would like for us to acknowledge and work through the perceived malignancy, but arriving first by ourselves in the actual identification of it?
I am firing to the wind here? Is it just me or is there something a tad more ominous afoot?

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Amer (here)

Posted by Teakai
Is the issue about...race?

Or is race just the cover for something deeper?

Posted by Devilpigeon
It's evolved into something deeper.

Posted by Lord Sidious
There is a ****fight going on, but this thread isn't it, it is designed by me to help to end this.

Posted by Lord Sidious
The environment is going to be devastated, who really cares who did what?
Who cares why they did it?
The population WILL be reduced down to a small number and not that far away.
What are YOU going to do to get through to the other side with those you care about?

Posted by Lord Sidious
You have five to ten years more.

Posted by Doublehelix
Can I ask who or what your source of information is for you to come to such a conclusion ???

Posted by Lord Sidious
Atticus.

And so it would appear in the end Rob- and correct me if I'm wrong- the deeper issue upon us is not in the debate about race and sensitivity to language per se.
It is not about Bill and yet it is.
It is not about the Camelot/Avalon/Nexus splits and yet it is.
You were offended in the beginning but seized on the momentum/attention to focus us on a perceived cancer among us that few really comprehend and more importantly few want to acknowledge.
However the acknowledgement and healing of this perceived cancer is to be instrumental if not vital in preparing us for a future catastrophic event that will launch itself upon us in five to ten years.
And you have been privy to this via Atticus.

And now you would like for us to acknowledge and work through the perceived malignancy, but arriving first by ourselves in the actual identification of it?
I am firing to the wind here? Is it just me or is there something a tad more ominous afoot?

You are reading, thinking and extrapolating correctly.
Well done.
Thanks.

[Amer]

Would Decibillistics be firing in the right direction with:

Posted by Decibillistics
But the time has shifted from survival to control.....and now it must shift from control to collaboration. Because without people collaborating and working together, we are ultimately ****ed.

For some reason control is ringing in my head with a capital C. Is it a big part of the equation?