Mission . . . Convert a Lifelong Meat Eater

[Lettherebelight]

Hi, Blufire. I don't think you were being subversive or deceptive. I hear your message and your passionate desire for a better world, based on natural living in a localized way.

I think it is a noble quest.

I myself am an advocate of simple living and high thinking based on agriculture and cow protection. I feel, if we love and respect cows as our 'Mother', treat them as they deserve, then the cows will be peaceful and happy, and we humans can have enough protein and calories. It cannot be denied that cows are horrribly mistreated in the dairy industry, but there is a better way. I realise a lot of vegan folk would disagree. I
support them fully in their high ideals.

Your understanding that you have learned from your teacher (Granny) is so true, that each living being has a right to live its life, and if and when you take that life, you take it seriously, with thanks.
It is difficult for me to explain how I can hold an opposing viewpoint, yet understand another.

I agree that it is difficult to express ourselves completely on a forum. Sometimes it's hard to be clear even when face to face! Our thoughts are how we really speak.

But I think we can all agree that we are all working in our own way to make the world a better place. All these points of view are necessary, and have a rightful place in the evolution of consciousness that is now happenning on this planet.

[blufire]

Thank you shamanseeker . . . . I do need to cool off a bit and reconnect.

I will say though you seem to still be only trying to defend your own stand . . . and yes maybe I am too.

Can you validate anything at all in my posts or to you is it all drivel?

Posted by shamanseeker (here)
Dear Blufire,

Why are you so upset? If people do not want to answer you the way you expect to be answered, there is probably a reason.

You wrote: "Shamanseeker . . . can we at least explore new ways to approach this subject and feel I have tried to put forth some possibilities Can we at least as a more deep thinking group even TRY??? I don’t know it does not appear so."

I explained why it is useless in my opinion to argue about this on an academic level. Because I write this, do think I am shallow thinking and with 'TRY' do you think I am unable to make an effort?

You wrote: "Will we ever get past all the usual “academic pontification”, “Youtube throwing”, “cut and pasting”, “taking out of context drivel”?? I don’t know and it doesn’t’ appear so."

I think you are the one who is getting a little too emotional, frustrated and confused not us and you are certainly sounding very patronizing. Perhaps, you should listen more to other people and not assume that they have lower I.Q.s than you do just because they disagree or decide to face questions differently.

You wrote: "Can we ever get past as supposedly a wiser, deeper thinking, new path creating group, the same wore out, me me me, band wagon(s) . . . . I don’t know . . . . it doesn’t appear so . . . .and this truly and very deeply grieves me . . ."

Do you think you are more intelligent than we are? Just because we do not know what you want us to write?

[shamanseeker]

Dear Blufire,
I did not say that anything in your post was drivel, Bluefire.
Best wishes

[karelia]

Posted by blufire (here)
karelia, You didn’t see a reason on why I want to maybe become a vegetarian because this is not the reason for my thread. The point or reason is for you to CONVERT to being a vegetarian.

Ah. Thank you for answering this. My opinion is that the only one who can convert you to being a vegetarian is you.

I tried to carefully outline who I am (physically) and my lifestyle and my goals. The question I put to PA is how someone like me would be able to convert and maintain a vegetarian lifestyle.

Yes, I saw that. I see it as an internal question rater than an external one. You seem to be sort of set that it's not possible to be vegetarian considering your lifestyle. It's quite possible that you're right.

It is interesting to me that if the highly charged emotional reasons for being vegan, vegetarian or raw food diet is removed the discussion pretty much stops. I’m curious why members who generally come into similar threads (jagman’s threads comes to mind) have not entered into the discussion or added valuable input.

I have entered a new phase or chapter in my life in where I am diligently trying to implement what I have learned on PA and in my own personal growth. This requires deep reorganizing of the foundation my entire way of life.

And it looks like you're well on your way to success.

I have taken deep to heart many of Bill’s testimonials (and others) on what we have done as a species to our planet and our responsibility of doing our part to clean it up. It will take generations, but we have to start somewhere.

I cannot change entire corporations, governments or giant slow moving massive century old agendas. But I CAN start with ME and my immediate environment and responsibilities. I can carefully tear apart every seam of my last 52 years and make a new pattern that perhaps the next generations can successfully follow.

And if everyone did this, the world would be a much better place already.

And so one of those very important seams is . . . . how do I responsibly feed myself and those who I am and will be responsible for.

Warning what I am about to say is going to raise a few hackles (I apologize . . . . again)

To me . . . basing being a vegetarian or vegan largely or solely on the idea that you cannot emotionally deal with the killing of animals is one dimensional, selfish and shallow.

I understand and respect those who are vegetarian because they feel healthier with this type of diet. Or those who eat a vegetarian diet for a period of time for cleansing and a “rebooting” of their body systems (surprise I AM one of these people)

I dare say you have raised some hackles... It's one thing to not being able to emotionally deal with the killing, but emotions don't really come into it if you simply have no wish to be responsible for any being's death. This kind of responsibility isn't for me, so I don't engage in it. *shrugs*

In my quest to build a sustainable and healthy foundation for responsible eating I have to take into consideration some of these thoughts:

• How many miles has my food traveled??? Am I supporting (vicariously or directly) the massive fossil fuel depletion and all that encompasses using fossil fuels?
• How do I work within the boundaries or parameters of where I live and seasonal, continental and regional eating only? Which I feel is very important. We adapt to where we live. Our body systems align and balance with our latitude, longitude, weather, and seasons. I feel it is vital to our well being and health that we only eat what is capable of being grown or wild crafted within these my area and environment.
• Are we truly “evolved”, as a species, to the point where all of us or many of us are no longer omnivores?
• In covering all the possible scenarios what if I do not have electricity or ways to refrigerate or freeze food? Which this is already a fact in a very large portion of the world. How do I feed myself and those around me through the winter months without eating meat for proper nutrition and health? And within this same thought if one can only achieve higher levels of consciousness or higher frequency or travel or be allowed into the next dimensions if they are only vegan or vegetarian then MOST of the world population ain’t gonna make it. So how can this be Truth?

And being vegetarian or not doesn't really belong to the equation. You've already said you are able to raise your own animals for meat and are fine with butchering them for sustenance. Why do you want to be converted to becoming vegetarian?

For me, it's a purely spiritual thing. Aside from not wanting the responsibility of taking a life, there is the whole energy matter. Our planet is currently ruled by forces that need energetic misery to survive. Any form of killing adds to that misery, which in turn feeds the dark. And the dark is feasting. Look at all the misery they so actively encourage by their various ideas of fooling humanity in grotesque ways. I simply have no desire to contribute to their feasts. I rather thank the plant that gifts me with tomatoes or the potatoes I dig out of the ground, try not to waste anything, and add a little bit of light that way.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Blufire: "I’m curious why members who generally come into similar threads (jagman’s threads comes to mind) have not entered into the discussion or added valuable input."

Here is why:

Originally posted by Blufire: "To me . . . basing being a vegetarian or vegan largely or solely on the idea that you cannot emotionally deal with the killing of animals is one dimensional, selfish and shallow."

There are quite a few other reasons,but better leave it at that.

All in all a very interesting thread with quite a few enligheting responeses,I appreciate being able to read it.

[Phoenix1304]

I can't remember where I heard it now, but I recall vividly a story about eskimos taking a whale (and I have campaigned vigorously to save the whales over the years), but when the eskimos take it, it feeds an entire village and they use everything, for oil, clothing and so on. There is a relationship of respect between the whale and people, as they see it, the whale agrees to this and it's a fair fight. This is a far cry from giant agribusiness and all it's abuses. It is also in line with macrobiotic eating that I followed for a number of years which, essentially, is about eating in harmony with your environment. This would mean in UK I wouldn't be eating tropical fruits for example. If you only have access to deer and rabbit in your winter time, then maybe it is the perfect food to sustain you in that environment.

However, with the advent of biodomes and the like, it is possible in any climate to have a tropical food garden all year round, not sure where that quite fits into macrobiotics, but it does enable those of us (I'm very much like enfoldedblu in this regard) who feel increasingly grossed out by eating dead animals that we couldn't possibly have killed in the first place, to have an option.

The diets of people before grocery stores and shopping and shipping was local and truly macrobiotic, I have a cellular memory of eating buffalo ribs on the plains of America so I feel kind of genetically inclined to eat meat, but I'm sure there were long periods of berry and vegetable diet in between the great hunts. These days, I could thrive on a diet that excluded meat. I'm still trying after 30 years, I currently allow myself meat once a week. I do love a roast chicken dinner with all the fixins, and may never deny myself that, though it has to be organic.

Vegetarianism may well be a part of our evolution because I feel more and more strongly the need to stop doing what, yes, I do feel emotional about. I woke up the other morning thinking 'how can you not expect your body to rot if you eat dead flesh?', the sanest diet of all seems to be raw food to me, gorillas do pretty well on it, and ultimately I guess, we evolve to fruitarian and breatharian. Though it makes me a little sad, as food, and the art form we have made of it, is one of the great sensual pleasures of life, imo.

So to sum up I guess, I don't feel I need to convert you to anything and I will follow the responses you get with interest.

[Sierra]

What an interesting thread. Aside from the scientific issue whether or not one even *can* subsist healthily on a *local*, *self-sustaining* vegetarian diet in a rural mountainside area with long winters ... there seem to be a few emotional issues. I realize Blufire, you are asking for scientific feedback, but some of the emotional issues may disappear in the future, so I thought I'd mention them.

Within the current paradigm, we have to worry about carbon footprints, hidden costs, damage to environments, damage to the food we eat because of the way food takes weeks to hit markets, therefore does not contain nutrients that only present themselves when fully ripened, cruelty and terror in the slaughter process, the list is endless.

If we had free energy, some of these problems would go away. I believe with free energy, the model of scarcity, leading to cruelty to save pennies, would also leave. I think whoever wanted to, could afford their own land, their own crops, their own animals ... thus destroying for the most part, the current economic paradigm of getting meat to the market that is so inhumane. As well, as more people eat healthy food, those currently locked into the paradigm, will start to support local providers, simply because local providers of healthy, organic, fresh, humanely treated food, will be available, thus further adding to the destruction of the current paradigm of scarcity and cruelty.

The field of science will explode due to freed up resources, and an answer can be had once and for all, is it possible to live a healthy local lifestyle without meat, and every location will know whether or not it is possible, and what outside resources would be necessary for consumption to be healthy. Heck, even vitamin/mineral/nutrient pills may be produced for the local environment, eventually, once people get behind the theory, local produce is the best paradigm.

I also believe, with the prophesied return to human knowledge of the indigenous knowledge, spiritual knowledge, and inner knowing, the ability to kill where needed with grace and honor, will return. And put an end, once and for all, the horror of our mega-farms and slaughter houses.

I'm not propagating either or any position, just saying some of the issues creating conflict, may not exist in the near future. One can hope and imagine and intend it anyway ...

Sierra

[grannyfranny100]

blufire

Perhaps you are beating yourself up too much about this. Perhaps your body requires animal protein or maybe there is a different sequence of changes that are required in your life and you are focusing on the wrong issue at the moment. Listen to your inner self not to fashionable rhetoric. Peace

[eaglespirit]

Hi Blufire...prompted to post a bit of my own experience here.

And I understand You are busy...because maintaining life in a hollow in the mountains away from it all requires daily diligence.

This may seem 'off topic' but it is 'on topic' for me personally...and may help You if You choose.


Sungazing as a daily meditation process at early sunrise and late sunset will help Your body and mind and soul as a food/energy source:
http://solarhealing.com/process/ ..this link is simply a guide for safety at first, use Your Heart for Your Own visual time build up


Dawn's meditation process will also help Your body and mind and soul as a food/energy source:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...a-how-to-guide


These processes will lessen Your need for food intake after a few months if done daily. These meditations can go hand in hand.

This will help in the endeavors of sustainment in the natural arena You have chosen.

I Wish You the Best!