Destroy your Higher Self or Source!

[johnf]

Posted by Dawn (here)
What a fun and funny thread. For many years I was in 'spiritual seeker HELL!' and convinced I needed to do so many methods and rituals, and even to learn from 'teachers', and to sit in meditation day after day in countless silent retreats. Finally, one day, I was simply light and carefree, even if my mind did not agree.

There are 2 sides to every coin. In our case there is the side of oneness (emptiness and pure potential), and then on the other side there is the amazing display of the many creations. So, we are both one and part of the many.

There is a story of a Zen master who would give his students koans (questions) to ponder in order to help them see who they were. One of his students told him, "I finally get it. The answer to all the koans is the same! It is all emptiness and none of this (3d reality) is real!" The Zen master picked up his stick and hit the student hard across the shoulders. The student cried, "Ouch! Why did you do that?!" And the Zen master replied, "If you think that you have the answer and all is emptiness... what is that?"

On this thread it seems we are talking about the 2 sides of the coin and there is some dispute depending on which side each person is looking at. Relax, it is all good... One or Many... there is joy in all.

I think it is important to take the spiritual journey and discover the other side of the coin which is the very ground of existence and creation. Realizing that you are actually THAT, which births all, is very important- and will change you for ever. But, when you have climbed that mountain to the top, it is time to come back down 'into the marketplace' where you can be a gift to all that you come in contact with.

I'm not sure about enlightenment. I've been with many supposedly 'enlightened' teachers and they still put their pants on one leg at a time. They still have personalities, and they still refer to themselves as 'I' when they are out and about town. I also have heard about those who never come back down in their lifetime and remain in the realization of the empty oneness full time. They miss out on all the fun that can be had by enjoying the 'many' and playing there, but that is their choice.

It is possible to be to a place where you are aware of both at all times. However that does not happen until you cease seeking. The one and the many, the same and different. What a wonderful game.

Below is a depiction of the stages of enlightenment as seen by Zen Buddhism. Study them carefully, they are a sort of code for what the pathless path is. Can you see that the posts here conflict depending on which of the 10 stages someone is experiencing?

PS: I do not consider myself a Zen Buddhist, but I love some of the ways they point to the Truth!

Awesome response Dawn! I Googled the ten bulls of zen in an atempt to find this cartoon version you posted. Both your prelude, and the version of the paintings seemed to say what I was trying to say in a much simpler way.
Then I found an Osho discourse on it:

http://www.messagefrommasters.com/os...lls_of_zen.htm

I didn't notice the presence of imbibing booze in the last painting, and it really gave me a different way of looking at my anti-self self in a new way.

[Jenci]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
The question then becomes, do we want to be subsumed back into that Higher Self upon dissolution, effectively losing our individuality (ego-self) in the process, once again becoming part of something greater?

Hi Rahkyt

The ego is always grasping or resisting which stops the natural flow - (trying to maintain the big 'I am' position or fear of how it is being pereived.

When the ego dissolves, there's no grasping or resisting. There's just a flow and what emerges is a natural personality that's free to express spontaneously.


Enlightened beings can be quirky and funny. I am thinking about Tolle and Mooji for example. They both make me laugh and they are both very individual

Jeanette

[Bollinger]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

It is a cover story.

“I don't need a guide, I will go on my own sweet way...I'll go happily round in circles....and I'm going to take as many others as I can with me...let's go!...follow meeeee!”

That is precisely why you are here: you are lost!

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?

An idea has infiltrated this and other forums, to trust YOUR inner instincts, YOUR intuition, because that is YOUR higher self...rubbish!
How sure are you that YOUR intuitions and instincts originated from “you”?

This higher self is merely your ego, clinging to its self-identity still.
It is still all about ME!!!
Ideas are put out there, to make you feel it's going to be alright - you have arrived, so no more searching! You do not have to be aware of anything...just be ...just snooze ..zz...zzz....zzzz...zzzzzzzzz!

Do you honestly think it is that simple?
So you can hold your breath, stick your toe in your left ear and a chakra turns blue....so what?!
Did it free you from your clinging?...NO!
…

I’m never comfortable entering into these particular areas where people talk about concepts such as “higher self”, “unconditional love”, “creating your own reality”, “enlightenment”, “source” and many others of the same ilk. Why is that? It is a question that is surprisingly easy to answer. There is no substance to speak of. As TraineeHuman pointed out.

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
In this Forum we pretty much only have words. Words are always shadows. Like in Plato’s story of The Cave.
…

However, there is philosophic mileage in having such discussions and though I would venture to suppose my views on spiritual subjects are in the minority within the population of the forum, expressing them hopefully won’t hurt.

One of the glaring shortfalls in threads having spirituality as their main theme is the use of certain terms that people rarely define. It was refreshing to see an exception to this crude generalisation a few posts back when Rahkyt gave us the benefit of his understanding of “The Higher Self”. One such definition is “totality of collective spiritual experience”. But even this leaves us with more questions than answers. The way I understood this was that the “Higher Self” is just the “Self”, since you are your experiences and memories. You can prefix it with the word “higher” if that makes it more spiritual but it doesn’t really add any more weight to its academic or etymological status.

So, what are we really talking about when we use terms like “higher self”, “unconditional love”, “creating your own reality”, “enlightenment” and “source”? One palpable observation is that every one of these concepts chimes with most people on this forum because they are considered to be the pinnacle of human spirituality and existence. This is what it’s all about. We’re not really here for mundane distractions such as having an education, finding a job, buying a house, raising a family, retiring and then dying. If only those things were removed, we could be doing what we’re really here for. This brings us back to Tony’s provocative question:

“Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?”

For example, there are those that claim to be enlightened souls, or others telling us that they are enlightened. I would actually put it to whoever believes such a thing that we are all enlightened. There is no exception to this and there is no measurable level of enlightenment either. One person cannot be more enlightened than another simply because we can’t measure it. Does any Zen master, for example, know about my experiences and my particular bits of knowledge and understanding? In order to be truly enlightened you would have to traverse every possible life-path there is.

And then we have “meditation”. There is no shortage of advice on how to meditate and there are those who claim to be able to cause themselves to go places or experience things not open to those of us who prefer to acquire knowledge or whatever it is we are after when meditating, in a normal state.

What is really profound and inescapable is that we are here. We are conscious. We exist. From that point of view, we are no wiser than an insect crawling around looking for some morsel for it has just as much idea about why it’s here as we have about why we are here with one tiny difference. It doesn’t ask. Perhaps that is the apotheosis of all wisdom and this inquisitive nature, about which we never stop boasting, is more of a curse than a blessing.

I’ll end by saying that in all probability, the thing that we should treasure the most is our consciousness. I think there is real, tangible and scientific evidence to suggest the brain is a receiver of consciousness rather than a producer and if that is true, our higher self is simply the node above the one at which we currently operate in a tree of infinite length and breadh.

[VaughnB]

Posted by johnf (here)
Words, words, words!

In my life , I have had many different experiences of awareness, that have had value in whatever relative world they existed in. The challenge in each of them was to note the existence of that world, and to accept it as a valuable part of the whole, and to move on. Accepting that challenge is what many call gratitude. If I overdue the gratitude, i create a self that will fight to the death for whatever ideas,experiences and identities, brought me to that point.

If i under do it, I become a self destructive self ready to drop the A bomb on any who follow this self or any self that resembles it. I still struggle immensely with this one, and find coming to this forum a way of noticing, that perhaps I am not the only one.

Having released all that hot air, (perhaps too much), I can say that I have attributed the identity of higher self to some sort of energy that has helped me see that I have been fighting myself, and others needlessly, and that this battle isn't something that helps me or others. These rare moments are startling,and contain an ecstasy or something that has been really hard to let go of. Perhaps the trick here is too find the true owner of this "gold" and return it to them, and in doing so relinquish my misplaced admiration of that "self"

Right on John...finding that middle ground is our conundrum our duality and our trial...like in my salutation of Tao of the Traveler...the path is narrow and we've only Truth as our companion.

Hey Jeanette I liked Rahkyt's 2 cents as well, there's a bit of truth in there somewhere, now I just have to figure how I can relate it to my life.

Liked Dawns appreciation for the journey as well. When John said that he enjoy this forum because he sensed some compassion for others traveling along the same road. I agree.

I've mentioned before the idea of having some kind of retreat with no agenda just fellow Avalonians getting together for some face time somewhere under the stars, around a campfire or just watching a sunset together.

I wonder if we could do a Skype conference call in sometime, then we could even have some face time. You could see my xmas tree with the bubble lights. lol

On the road, experiencing life with the rest of you.

[Jenci]

Posted by Dawn (here)
What a fun and funny thread. For many years I was in 'spiritual seeker HELL!' and convinced I needed to do so many methods and rituals, and even to learn from 'teachers', and to sit in meditation day after day in countless silent retreats. Finally, one day, I was simply light and carefree, even if my mind did not agree.

Light and carefree, Dawn.
One day, everything just relaxed. And that's it for me. Just that.
No more struggle.........even if there is a struggle

Thanks for the cartoon, I had never seen that before.
Jeanette

[music]

Sorry Tony, couldn't disagree more, but it's pointless saying why, or quoting accepted past masters because we are in the realms of the experiential, and my experience here differs greatly to yours obviously.

To play Devil's advocate here - this pushing that comes from certain traditions or quarters to deny the existence of any higher self - this stating that we are merely ego, ego is flawed, so therefore we are nothing but emptiness contained within a flawed vessel? Would it not be the perfect primer for the acceptance of the "hive-mind" mentality, and the subsuming of individuality on this physical plane into a predictively reactive extension of the will of a ruling financial and intellectual elite?

For me? The self does disappear, but not in dimensional existence. Higher self, for me, is an expression of source within higher dimensional reality, but still is tied to the "physicality" of dimensional existence. The higher self resides in the heart, and the heart is the meeting place between lower and higher dimensions, but also is a reflection or refraction of the the meeting place between dimensional existence and "source". It is the seat of alchemy, where the male and female principles are combined with the magic/spirit/dragon to acheive unity, which is reunion with source, which is coming back to our true and only nature, which is Love.

[Anchor]

I like Tony - he is an all walking talking and balking (!) catalyst for thinking

[Arc]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
[Destroy your Higher Self or Source]
Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

Why?

It may even be true, but why destroy it? I think it is fine to understand it, or realize there is a larger construct.

So what if we are all just avatars in some large video game being played by the same forces, under the illusion that we are truly the characters in the game, and not the player itself? Or all actors/puppets in the same cosmic movie who all believe ourselves to be real? What if we find out we are the illusion and not the force behind it?

Well then, if we find all this to be true, it's nice to know... But, heck, why destroy it?? My feeling is that the purpose of creation by a creator source is to allow it to become self aware and then get to enjoy it's creation from infinite perspectives. Creation - not destruction. Sure it might be an illusion. And, why not enjoy it??

I appreciate this opportunity to experience that which I have, to play as an actor in this wonderful show. I like this movie. Sure, we are at the end of one of the darkest chapters or scenes - but, we are almost at the best part!

I like how apples taste, and how flowers smell, and laughing together with friends, and watching cats playfully chase strings, and solving puzzles, and watching the sun rise and set, and feeling the rain, and trying to figure out how we are all going to make a better world. I like laughing - and even crying. I love to love, and hate to hate. The illusion is sometimes frightening and mysterious and scary, and at other times exhilarating, and magnificent and wonderful!!

So, back to wisdom.
Now take this movie or game and pull the plug - Bam! nothingness --
The movie is off. And now emptiness!!

... ... ... ... ... ...

[the ego manages to manifest a tiny weak whisper in the nothingness, after this annihilation]

"This wisdom and realization...it's...."

"BORING!!!!!!!!!!!"

[consciousness induces a big bang]

"BOOOOOOOOOOM!"

Energy
Light
Waves
Particles
Atoms
Molecules
Acceleration
Time
Expansion
Space
Gases
Dust
Accretion
Gravity
Galaxies
Clustering
Stars
Fission
Heat
Planets
Comets
Water
Chemicals
Bacteria
Plants
Animals
Evolution
Sentience
Culture
Science
Advancement
Experience
Spirituality
Friendship
Appreciation
Awakening
Consciousness
Enjoying Its Creation...

"Wow, now this is more like it!!!", creation said to itself, "this ego stuff is much more fun!!!"

[Belle]

Posted by Jenci (here)

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

I really like that description, Rahkyt.

Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.

The lower self/inner child is always the last to get it. "Surely I must be fixed by now!, it cries", lol.

When we move in sync with what life is presenting to us, rather than resisting it, the movement itself dissolves the ego/inner child.

Each moment, life offers us an opportunity to coax the inner child out of the shadows where it has been hiding. Sometimes it is the most subtlest of clinging or belief never seen before, which is suddenly seen with great clarity when life is allowed to flow spontaneously, as it should.

This process takes time but with sincerity and humility, it works exactly as it should and not a moment sooner.
Jeanette

Meeting my inner child changed my life.

To make a long story short, at 3-1/2 years of age I was diagnosed with a disease with no known treatment or cure and my parents were told I would die before my 5th birthday. That did not happen, as you can tell since I'm still here. What did happen was years of being isolated, in the hospital more than out, abuse by a doctor, and a sudden remission at age 16 that no one can explain.

I came out of the whole experience distrusting everyone and everything, mostly myself. I was afraid to let people get too close to me, not only because they would hurt me, but because I was afraid they would see the monster I was inside...and run away.

Well, I met that 'monster' through a therapist who walked me through an experience of meeting my inner child. In that moment, that child, that little me, looked at grown-up me with so much love and acceptance and peace that I must have cried for an hour straight. The 'monster' I thought I carried within me taught me, in that moment, who I was at my innermost core. I had unconsciously hidden 'her' away to protect her/me from what I was going through as a young child so it wouldn't hurt so much.

That experience has never changed...inner child carries only love, acceptance and peace. I, on the other, have changed by realizing the greatest gift I can give to the people in my life is that same love and acceptance in peace.

I consider her my higher self. Through her, I have learned to connect with what I call the stream of collective consciousness...much like what you have described as the Higher Self, Rahkyt.

How often to we speak the same 'language' but use different words? How often are we misunderstood because of different definitions? I was about to disagree with both of you, Jenci and Rahkyt, only to find in telling my story that we were saying the same thing. Another lesson learned. Thank you.

[Erich]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

It is a cover story.

“I don't need a guide, I will go on my own sweet way...I'll go happily round in circles....and I'm going to take as many others as I can with me...let's go!...follow meeeee!”

That is precisely why you are here: you are lost!

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?

An idea has infiltrated this and other forums, to trust YOUR inner instincts, YOUR intuition, because that is YOUR higher self...rubbish!
How sure are you that YOUR intuitions and instincts originated from “you”?

This higher self is merely your ego, clinging to its self-identity still.
It is still all about ME!!!
Ideas are put out there, to make you feel it's going to be alright - you have arrived, so no more searching! You do not have to be aware of anything...just be ...just snooze ..zz...zzz....zzzz...zzzzzzzzz!

Do you honestly think it is that simple?
So you can hold your breath, stick your toe in your left ear and a chakra turns blue....so what?!
Did it free you from your clinging?...NO!

When learning anything, we follow the same process of going step by step.

Through a method, we start at the beginning and work through the stages.
Once we understand, we find confidence and real freedom,
so that when something is not working, we know how to put it right.

The method of meditation is the same.
To say one does not have to learn anything is a misdirection.
Yes, you are “that which you seek” - but there is a lot more to it than just those words.
You wouldn't say that to an enlightened being...unless you wanted to make them laugh!

We have to learn to unlearn.
To uncover the layers of self deception.
It is not that difficult, but our habitual patterning keeps getting in the way.
That is why it is wise to follow a system to undo the knots, and so find freedom.

Of course, the ego wants to do its own thing, and say, “I am already free!”
This is merely a conceptual freedom. We are still clinging to the concept of “I” am “something”.
It is the same old habit that keeps the noose around our necks.

Once you have a sound method, you will find total confidence.
Finding total confidence means there is nothing to ever be defended.
No one can ever pull the wool over your eyes again...or the noose around your neck!

If you react to this, ask - who is it that is reacting?

To uncover the truth you really do have to take yourself apart.
When you have realised Emptiness, then there is nothing more:

My dream-like form
Appeared to dream-like beings
To show them the dream-like path
Which leads to dream-like enlightenment.

Best wishes for the new year!!
Tony

More of the usual theme from OP: I'm right and you're wrong.

[amedeejp]

Hi there all you posters,

Enjoyed reading all of this. Thanks for starting the thread Tony. I liked Dawn's version. I'm one of few words. When I realized what the monks were saying in as many ways as there are minds to understand it I had to accept I am responsible to myself. (spent many hours, days, years maybe lifetimes, getting to know myself) Live, and treat others as I would like to be treated.
Not very original, sorry. Be happy in all situations; they will change.

Love to all of You and many blessings now and in the coming year!

Highest Regards,

John

[Mark]

Posted by Jenci (here)
The ego is always grasping or resisting which stops the natural flow - (trying to maintain the big 'I am' position or fear of how it is being pereived.

When the ego dissolves, there's no grasping or resisting. There's just a flow and what emerges is a natural personality that's free to express spontaneously.


Enlightened beings can be quirky and funny. I am thinking about Tolle and Mooji for example. They both make me laugh and they are both very individual

Jeanette

I like both of them. There is something about such people that is palpable when you are in their presence.

I guess getting to that place where you can exist totally in the Now, not judging the moment through the lens of experience or personality is what all of the discussion is about, beyond the definitions and conceptions of "Higher Self" and how ego relates.

Posted by Belle (here)
How often to we speak the same 'language' but use different words? How often are we misunderstood because of different definitions? I was about to disagree with both of you, Jenci and Rahkyt, only to find in telling my story that we were saying the same thing. Another lesson learned. Thank you.

Hi Belle, to me that is the core of most disagreement, argumentation. Language, expression. Tower of Babel stuff. It gets in the way so much. See it so often in places like this where we don't have the benefit of body language or intonation. We often mean the same thing, speak of the same ideas, just use our experiences, our lenses, our perception, to explain it and, when you get down to it, boil it all down, it's all the same. Isn't that wonderful?? If you can get there and figure out that you are there. LOL

[Davidallany]

Tony, sir.

If you react to this, ask - who is it that is reacting?

That is the right question and the heart of the matter.

May I ask you Tony, who is it that would take oneself apart to understand the total picture?
In your current understanding, how does one take the self apart? Are there specific methods or steps to achieving that goal?
Thank you and may you have a very happy new year clelebration with yours.

[TraineeHuman]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)

Hello TH!

Could explain what "inter-subjective" means? Sounds good, but I don't have a clue!

Regarding the "crutch" idea...you seem to be implying that that is a negative.
As I know I currently have a limp, I am delighted and proud to accept the help and support of a crutch that is the right size and shape for me. I don't see any shame in that at all: and I know that, one day, I will be happy to throw that crutch away.

I suppose if one doesn't feel one is limping, then a crutch would be excess baggage, as you say.

In every other aspect of life, I am extremely grateful for all the teachers who have ever helped me: they have passed on their experience, and through my understanding and practice, I have been able to experience things for myself.
The spiritual journey, for me, is no different. Finding a teacher who does it for you isn't necessarily easy - I have been let down quite badly by a couple of "gurus", but that has in no way diminished my search, or my utter respect for those who offer wisdom arising from practice.

I don't feel that "my path" is much different from anyone else's path.
Therefore, I am happy to listen to, reflect and hopefully learn from those who have trodden the path before me.

Perhaps it comes down to the strength of one's inner questions.
If the questions are so overwhelmingly strong and all-encompassing, it feels as if there is no time to waste wandering around, limping...pass that crutch, will you?!!

Hello Kathie,

“Inter-subjective” is a philosophical term. That might be enough to lose some readers’ interest straight away. However, I guess it does tie in with this thread in certain ways. So I’ll try to explain what intersubjectivity means.

Let me start by saying that we are very much subjects rather than objects;
causes rather than effects;
active, rather than passive victims;
in “I-Thou” relationship to each other rather than “I-it”;
consciousnesses, and even consciousness itself, rather than things, or than anything that can be pinned down;
the “I” that lies within, on the “other side” of me;
alive rather than dead (even after our physical death).

And that is just us even without our Higher Selves, even without our Lower Selves. If people could only begin to truly, truly realise and see that this is what they are like right now, at whatever incomplete stage of development they may be at, that would take them probably about halfway to the highest possible level of enlightenment and liberation and beyond. Half the journey would be over. (As I guess Dawn has mentioned more than once, there is eventually a point where you start experiencing everything in your life as one big Christmas party that doesn’t really ever stop, even though people you work with or live with might be experiencing the very same exact situation as hell.) I wonder what will it take to get some of you guys to bring "Heaven" right down to earth and into the earth?

This ties in with having or using a crutch. It seems to me the area of spirituality, or the Higher Self, is the area where we are the most unlimited, and the most able to kind of snap our fingers and – so to speak – get up and walk if a minute ago we were lame. I guess I’m saying this because I’ve seen sooo many intelligent, genuine people clinging to meditation methods or teachers and, to my perception, becoming kind of lame or stale as a result. Very rarely, at least in my experience, does a spiritual or psychological teacher teach anything that you can’t discover for yourself. Hasn’t anybody else listened properly to Krishnamurti’s message? (After all, he genuinely was a reincarnation of the Buddha.) By the way, I've looked very deeply inside so many of the above-mentioned intelligent, genuine people and believe I have deeply and clearly seen what was going on with their teacher.

I’ve actually had over a hundred spiritual or psychological teachers that I’ve worked with intensively in my life, for months or years. I’ve spent probably more time on working to develop myself -- even just in classes, etc or in doing specific "homework" -- than I have working to earn a living. In the end only two, maybe three, were more of a help than a hindrance. (And notice: all of them were huge hindrances as well.)

That doesn’t include the Gods. The ones Tony mentioned, and several others, have been my most important teachers, though I prefer to use different names for them, such as Pan and Gaia/Kali. (The black “Kali” is an impostor. There is more than one “Kali”, but I only deal with the genuine one, while black magicians work with the phony Kalis, who also have names such as Hecuba, etc.) As my teachers, the Gods have all gone to the most extraordinary lengths to trick me into being more self-reliant at every point. You would be surprised. The Tao Te Ching says that the greatest teacher is the one where you don’t even notice that you’re being taught.

OK, the rest of my answer to the question of what inter-subjectivity means is probably less on-topic. Briefly, the philosopher Descartes said: let’s try doubting everything. (Which everybody should do, at least once in their life. How else can you find true honesty with yourself? If you're serious, you have to do this. How else can you stop believing and assuming, rather than admitting that you either know/understand or you don’t know/understand regarding any question?)

Is there then anything we can say we know for certain? The answer is: yes, the one thing we can be absolutely certain about in the face of total skepticism is that “I exist” – or, to be strictly accurate, that “consciousness exists here (inside of “me”, whatever “me” is)”. So that’s something that’s 100% certain.

Descartes then pointed out that anything the consciousness that is apparently “me” directly experiences will also be certain. It so turns out that what everybody directly experiences is the same. (Yes! The fear that I experience is exactly the same as the fear you experience, except maybe in the degree of its intensity. The feeling of a flower petal on my fingertips is exactly the same as yours, except for any interpretations you or I add on.) So although it’s subjective in the sense that it’s experienced individually and relying solely on the “authority” of your individual consciousness, it’s certain. In fact, philosophers have proved (and all agree) that whatever is experienced inter-subjectively is all that is certain.

[Jeffrey]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
If one is practising for ones own enlightenment, life is quite simple, the practice is quite simple.
But if one wishes to benefit others, much study, reflection and meditation is needed.

The following elaborates a bit more on this subject.

Here's an excerpt from My Master, by Swami Vivekananda:

His principle was: first form character, first earn spirituality, and results will come of themselves. His favorite illustration was: “When the lotus opens, the bees come of their own accord to seek the honey. So let the lotus of your character be full-blown, and the results will follow.”

Regards,

Vivek

[wolf_rt]

Ok so i'm pretty confused by all this...

If you completely remove the EGO, surely you are then one with the source/god???

I mean ALL thought is in relation to past/future
all conversation/words are in relation to thaught
all feeling are in relation to thought/experiance
surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot? and everybody would have 'ascended' or returned to source?
there could be no communication. indeed i cant see how there could be ANYTHING?

surely this is not what 'god' is looking for?
i believe we are here to experience, but experience what? If nobody had an ego surely we would live as animals? not necessarily a bad thing, but to what end???

am i completely off base here?

[Phil_7050]

One cannot live without the ego. The Ego is a part of who you are, you're unique image/mask that seperates you from universal consciousness.
Look at the key phrases of our Zodiacs:

Aries - I am
Taurus - I have
Gemini - I think
Cancer - I feel
Leo - I will
Virgo - I analyze
Libra - I weigh
Scorpio - I desire
Sagittarius - I see
Capricorn - I use
Aquarius - I know
Pisces - I perceive

I believe the Higher Self is the fully evolved Ego, your midheaven in your birth chart, the true being you strive to be consciously or not. In the end, we are here to grow together with the help of our Ego (negative or fear-based traits of our Inner Child) to understand it, forgive and send it love... Just like how Inelia Benz puts it
I believe we are leaving the age of Pisces (perception) as we enter the age of Aquarius (knowledge)... O Father Time.

Although I am only 22, I still see seniors and adults act/express themselves like children... It is time for us to leave Neverland.

My two cents

[Dawn]

Wolf_rt: If you completely remove the EGO, surely you are then one with the source/god???

I mean ALL thought is in relation to past/future
all conversation/words are in relation to thaught
all feeling are in relation to thought/experiance
surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot? and everybody would have 'ascended' or returned to source?
there could be no communication. indeed i cant see how there could be ANYTHING?

surely this is not what 'god' is looking for?
i believe we are here to experience, but experience what? If nobody had an ego surely we would live as animals? not necessarily a bad thing, but to what end???

I love it when someone has questions... aren't questions just the most wonderful ways of opening the door to new understandings? Thank you for this! I'll take a stab at answering and maybe... just maybe I can come up with some great question when I'm done which will lead us further- well I hope so anyway

At one time in my life I was extremely clear. I had absolutely no thoughts and slept only 1-1.5 hours daily. That lasted 7 years, and then I began to notice the mind began to entertain thoughts again. 9 years from the beginning of that time period I began to sleep 5-7 hours nightly and I settled into ordinary human experience. Today, about 16 years from when that time ended, I have a pretty regular life. But for 9 years, my life was not ordinary at all.

Perhaps you have a deep belief that it is the thoughts in our mind which create our world. That might be why you believe that if our mind stopped being busy all the time, the world would end. Well, part of the reason for going on the spiritual quest is that you learn that this is just not so. The world continues without your thoughts, and your relationship to it changes to one of awe and gratitude. As things display themselves to you (events, 3D objects, and 3D beings) you have such a deep ecstatic response of gratitude and love that those words can't even come close to the actual experience. Every moment is orgasmic, filled with such potential and diversity.

So, what does create this universe? Clearly it is not created by thinking and thoughts. What then is creating it?

Is there a 'creator being' that set it all up and then invited us to enjoy the creation? Perhaps that being created us and we play under the watchful awareness of this creator?

Or, are we the creators, yet on a level where our little minds cannot follow the artists brush, which we weal from our true nature?

Is the mind that creates so amazing that it created the 'little mind' that thinks the thoughts we tussle with in the human experience? Did we create the ego being discussed on this thread?

Is there a beingness so omnipotent, that it set about creating the experience of being limited, just for fun? If the answer to this is 'yes' then did this (or maybe the ignorance of what it might be like) lead to a reckless experience here in 3D?

What are you? Who am I? And... what the heck are we doing here?

[markpierre]

Oh, the game is up. Hi Pie'n'eal

I'm not sure I agree entirely, but mostly because I don't know what to believe anymore. I 'believe in' nothing to be honest. Happily I've had enough experiences to be certain that what I don't know, is sublime. It's a small consolation. And my ego is satisfied to go along for the time being as if it had any choice, but I can't speak about tomorrow. But I think you do an interesting dance sometimes between allusions of a true experience, and allusions to a method. I don't recognize that experience in many people, I can probably count them still on as many digits as I have if I include my nose.

I do agree fundamentally that perceptual mind operating on any level, has little if anything to do with reality. My first guess is that it has nothing whatever to do with it, but people don't like to hear that. They like to think they participate in their 'awakenings'.

I guess I just can't imagine how anymore. Not because I haven't tried, but because nothing changes in me as a result of anything I do, and especially anything I think. How I seem to change is in less and less 'doing', and less and less
'comprehending'. Less and less interest in engaging with my own mind at all. It 'just happens' by my reckoning. But this is a current revelation after years and years of unnecessary suffering and study.

I advocate for methods of 'undoing' and I can blather endlessly about that because its one of few things that I'm qualified to talk about. But it's largely just memories of an education. Even the topic of healing makes no sense anymore. Heal what? What's sick?
But if a discussion is to be valuable (in my opinion), it can offer the confrontation, but it should also offer a solution, and I don't have one anymore other than don't worry, your time will come. Maybe the confrontation is a moot point.

It just 'feels' like mind perceives 'doing' as productivity which 'feels' good, until it becomes 'felt' that nothing has been accomplished. Then 'doing' is experienced as distraction, an anxious 'feeling', until it's 'felt' that enough is enough. Then 'doing' is felt by the mind as turmoil and no further 'doing' can sedate it.

Like crushing an atom. You can compress it into the smallest space imaginable, but you can't annihilate it. And if the compression continues, what happens next? Is any perceptual/conceptual mind going to willingly take that step? I'm suggesting the kind of expansion that we like to consider and base our work-shopping on, is more like an effect of meeting the impossible. What cannot be done by the human mind.

Hey, that doesn't need to make sense by the way.

I always really enjoy you.

[Jenci]

Posted by wolf_rt (here)
Ok so i'm pretty confused by all this...

If you completely remove the EGO, surely you are then one with the source/god???

I mean ALL thought is in relation to past/future
all conversation/words are in relation to thaught
all feeling are in relation to thought/experiance
surely if EVERYBODY only lived in the now or just observed and experienced without judgement or thought, then the world would end on the spot? and everybody would have 'ascended' or returned to source?
there could be no communication. indeed i cant see how there could be ANYTHING?

surely this is not what 'god' is looking for?
i believe we are here to experience, but experience what? If nobody had an ego surely we would live as animals? not necessarily a bad thing, but to what end???

am i completely off base here?

Hi Wolf,

This is confusing to the mind because the mind only understands in time - past and future. Even the mind's understanding of the present is not actually the Now, it is more like what has happened in the last few seconds or about to happen in the next few.

I don't know how the world would look if everyone lived like this. I don't think it would stop. I could guess it would be a lot simpler and quieter. I don't use the word ascension because I think it is misleading - in that there is somewhere to go or reach. There is a Zen saying.

Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood carry water.

There is still experiencing of life after. The same things are done what is different is there is not a story attached to what is being experienced......

"I've got to chop this wood and don't have the time. Only if I had done it yesterday then I could get everything I need done today done. After the wood, I've got to get the water and if I don't hurry up I won't have time to cook the dinner and get to work. I wish I didn't have to work but I got to pay the bills. I hate the boss because of what he said to be yesterday...so I am going to tell him what I think of him. If only I didn't have to chop this wood, then my life would be easier......ouch I've just chopped my finger now! Now I really am going to be late......

When there is only experiencing in the now, there is just chopping wood with no egoic story about it. It's less exhausting but quite ordinary


Jeanette