Power of Hypnosis and Free Will

[grapevine]

But we are all hypnotised from birth, although you might call it something else . . . . . conditioned . . . . trained. Derren Brown is a very clever man imo and that's why he has a successful career. He does all of his tricks on camera as well, which is doubly worrying because we still cannot see it. The worry/uncertainty here is because we know we are all being duped - and not by Darren Brown.

But it would be wonderful if Bill could conduct an in-depth interview with Darren Brown.

I understand that Darren Brown is the presenter/showman and that he has a 'behind the scenes' partner in all of this.

Fantastic entertainer . . .

[Borden]

Posted by w1ndmill (here)
But we are all hypnotised from birth, although you might call it something else . . . . . conditioned . . . . trained. Derren Brown is a very clever man imo and that's why he has a successful career. He does all of his tricks on camera as well, which is doubly worrying because we still cannot see it. The worry/uncertainty here is because we know we are all being duped - and not by Darren Brown.

But it would be wonderful if Bill could conduct an in-depth interview with Darren Brown.

I understand that Darren Brown is the presenter/showman and that he has a 'behind the scenes' partner in all of this.

Fantastic entertainer . . .

Wow, w1ndmill ...

Bill's thoughtful questions and Derren's thoughtful answers! That is one interview I would like to see!

Borden

[Cidersomerset]

I would love to see an interview with Bill as well......

Heres something close ......An interview with Richard Dawkins....

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8-UTM

Derren himselfe did a debunking seeries of various psychic subjects
in the US....

But as he said in his Assassin interview he was surprised how he managed to get
the subject to go thru with it...against previous expert theory that it was not
possible to get someone to do that.....obviously wrong....

[Carmody]

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

As usual, it may come down to the position or place one stands at when looking out and 'interpreting' the meaning of the word 'hypnosis'.

What is is the popular meaning of the word, and what is it's true reality, if applied in the real context of it's affect upon individuals and groups?

Define hypnosis clearly, then you will understand what it is doing.

As a good friend and mentor taught me, "If you define the question as correctly as possible, if you frame the question as completely as is possible..in that moment, you also frame the answer. In other words, a properly defined and phrased question automatically begets the answer."

It is only a human concept that in some way..that such a thing is not true. The sticking point or failing point in the formation of logic thus becomes one of incomplete or poorly thought out and poorly enacted questions.

Now, in the context of that...Define Hypnosis.

We have lots of data, data that some don't want to look at and some don't want to see.

Thus, we have a definition system that is faulted, and damaged, purposely, by the people looking at the question.

Essentially, in the end point, we have the psychology of the given question asking beings..deeply interfering in the quests that they embark upon. Belief structure rears it's head.('belief structure' as a form of projection into unknowns)

We find that the more modern or esoteric aspects of 'ego' are interfering in the definition of the word hypnosis and it's ultimate meaning.

Which is interesting as hypnosis is tied to the proper definition and understanding of ego.

Ultimately....the only reason we have discussion and argument (on any subject at all).... is due to people having ego and emotions driving their formation of logic, logic that should be based on data that is available. data that is available is not used, as BELIEF comes into play at the deepest levels, FEELING, of complex emotions, complex emotions that drive the formation of logic in the mind -- ego/body aspects of the formation of thought in the 'mind'.

Which flips back around to some aspects of the depths of what hypnosis actually is... again.

Ultimately... to understand the word hypnosis and the depth of it's meaning, you have to face aspects of the self and reality which will shift one's concepts of reality and life at the most fundamental levels possible.

[Flash]

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
Well, there is actually a much deeper concern I have with hypnosis.

In the past I've read most of Carlos Castaneda's books (and I say that because every new book shines new light on previous books, so is not enough to just read some of them). Anyway, the thing I got most out of those books is that we see the world as we see it only because of our programmed/learned "perception of it".

If you use drugs, plants, mental/spiritual training or whatever means to alter/shatter that perception then you will see yourself immersed into a totally different reality that's just as "real" to you as the previous perception. I could have easily dismissed this if not for other teachings that talk about it and some personal experiences that have shown to me that there is something to this aspect.

So... yes Derren is doing this for show, but I have a hunch (with no proof) that there is much more to hypnosis that we currently know.

While looking at hypnotic shows (and even hypnotic therapy sessions) I can't help but notice that what we think of as our mind is actually very similar to a set of computer programs. If someone is able to scramble that program, or replace it, or shut it down, or plan new one, "you" will act on those and be none the wiser.

I sometimes think that hypnosis might be the key to our "system upgrade", but is now used to "scramble our system". We are more than our programmed mind, but in this "realm/reality" we are having experiences through this programmed mind. And if this is so, then it becomes imperative that we become aware of what programs we have running inside our minds. We need to try and run some "self-diagnosis" and "self-repair" programs.

Another thing I've noticed is that if I get very very tired, from lack of sleep, the "mind" slows down, and that is sort of funny to notice how you loose your train of though and how you are no longer able to focus. So perhaps in such a state I could be very susceptible to suggestions.

I'd be very curios to know what was my perception of the world as a very small baby, before all the hypnotic suggestions I got from the parents and the environment. How did I perceive the world before I even had a "language".

So this is really my interest in hypnosis. Could it be used as spiritual tool to help us break free? (free from what?) Is there more to hypnosis than those "funny, look-how-silly-you-are" shows? Do I ever have an "original thought" or is it all a pre-programmed reaction by the books and so called teachings that I've read, by the ads I see all day and so on.

i think you nailed most of it. And yes, it can be use to free oneself imho.

[Ilie Pandia]

Posted by Carmody (here)

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

As usual, it may come down to the position or place one stands at when looking out and 'interpreting' the meaning of the word 'hypnosis'.

What is is the popular meaning of the word, and what is it's true reality, if applied in the real context of it's affect upon individuals and groups?

Define hypnosis clearly, then you will understand what it is doing.

As a good friend and mentor taught me, "If you define the question as correctly as possible, if you frame the question as completely as is possible..in that moment, you also frame the answer. In other words, a properly defined and phrased question automatically begets the answer."

It is only a human concept that in some way..that such a thing is not true. The sticking point or failing point in the formation of logic thus becomes one of incomplete or poorly thought out and poorly enacted questions.

Now, in the context of that...Define Hypnosis.

We have lots of data, data that some don't want to look at and some don't want to see.

Thus, we have a definition system that is faulted, and damaged, purposely, by the people looking at the question.

Essentially, in the end point, we have the psychology of the given question asking beings..deeply interfering in the quests that they embark upon. Belief structure rears it's head.('belief structure' as a form of projection into unknowns)

We find that the more modern or esoteric aspects of 'ego' are interfering in the definition of the word hypnosis and it's ultimate meaning.

Which is interesting as hypnosis is tied to the proper definition and understanding of ego.

Ultimately....the only reason we have discussion and argument (on any subject at all).... is due to people having ego and emotions driving their formation of logic, logic that should be based on data that is available. data that is available is not used, as BELIEF comes into play at the deepest levels, FEELING, of complex emotions, complex emotions that drive the formation of logic in the mind -- ego/body aspects of the formation of thought in the 'mind'.

Which flips back around to some aspects of the depths of what hypnosis actually is... again.

Ultimately... to understand the word hypnosis and the depth of it's meaning, you have to face aspects of the self and reality which will shift one's concepts of reality and life at the most fundamental levels possible.

As usual my brain hurts when reading your post

It seems, through my filters, that you suggest hypnosis is a tool to alter belief systems. And this tools is actually based on the belief system itself. Since some cannot be hypnotized and others can be "hyper hypnotized" it seem you need to believe you can be hypnotized at some level, or are in fact "self hypnotic" all the time... hm...

You're talking about DATA, but the problem is... how can I perceive that RAW data? I seem to have filters that block me from seeing the data (like it does not register in my "awareness field") or I have filters that grossly skew said data.

Sometimes it feels like I am locked in a lit room and I hold the key in my pocket, but I keep my eyes closed and pretend I don't have the key so I get to "perceive myself" locked in the dark by some outside force. In that sense hypnosis could be the process of lying to oneself or building illusions around oneself. And taking that a bit further, perhaps hypnosis can be used to alter what I perceive as reality in a very dramatic way.

[Tony]

If I ask you, "Where is the nearest post box?" Your mind in now distracted, trying to comply with my wish. It's that simple! It doesn't feel against your will.

[Borden]

Ilie,

a crass example my father would joke about goes as follows:

If you hypnotise a girl and tell her to get undressed in front of the audience ... she won't.

If you hypnotise a girl and tell her she is in her bedroom alone and it's time to go to bed ... she will.

Take from this what you will.

Especially when you next watch TV, shop at a supermarket, or vote in an election.

Borden.

[CdnSirian]

"BATTLE FOR THE MIND By William Sargant Reviewed By Frank ...

In his book, Battle for the Mind, William Sargant rephrases the question and instead of asking why, he asks how? That is, how can people be induced to believe ...

www.mcfrdz.ishk.com/battle_for_the_mind.pdf - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight" Ilie I think you might enjoy this book on the hypnosis. It is very detailed. It addresses most of the issues mentioned in this thread.

[Tony]

There was one thing Atticus said that rang true. One can utilise natural events! That can be in the physical .....or the mind!
People live in a dream, one just manipulates the dream. Playing with people's emotions is part of this game. Pride, jealousy, anger, fear and ignorance.
You can only wake up when you are aware of this going on .............if not you are still in the dream!

.....being manipulated!

[etm567]

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

But there was no standard hypnotic induction there. I don't know if you can induce a deep hypnotic trance -- which that would have to be -- sort of instantly by flashing a light a few times. ANd then what does he do when he walks in and presses on the guy's head, and he goes out? I've been hypnotized, used to know a hypnotist. Of course there could be techniques he didn't know. That is possible. But there is nothing about this so-called "hypnosis" that bears any resemblance to standard hypnosis.

So, I don't know.

ETM

[CdnSirian]

Posted by etm567 (here)

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

But there was no standard hypnotic induction there. I don't know if you can induce a deep hypnotic trance -- which that would have to be -- sort of instantly by flashing a light a few times. ANd then what does he do when he walks in and presses on the guy's head, and he goes out? I've been hypnotized, used to know a hypnotist. Of course there could be techniques he didn't know. That is possible. But there is nothing about this so-called "hypnosis" that bears any resemblance to standard hypnosis.

So, I don't know.

ETM

I wondered about this when I watched some Derren videos on youtube. On people in the subway. He tapped them on the forehead and BANG they were in trance. Scary!

[Anchor]

The way I see Darren Brown is that this all is disclosure of a sort.

BTW, I like this write up on the "Assassin show" http://www.exuberancehypno.co.uk/blo...-did-he-do-it/

[Intranuclear]

Ilie,

When I was a teen (many lifetimes ago ), one of my interests became hypnosis. What preceded all that was out of body experiences I had had (did not know the term at that time) which led to reading Robert Monroe's books (which I still cherish). In any case, after much research, I dared to try to hypnotize friends and family. To my shock, I was successful the very first time I did. In every case where I succeeded, the subjects were extremely close to me and I was extremely careful not to suggest anything that could harm them. I even dabbled in self hypnosis, and while I succeeded every time, it also always ended up in complete silence (no one there to guide me after attaining the "hypnotic" state). In cases where I failed to hypnotize, there were trust issues. Bottom line, trust/belief is paramount (if not drugged). While I have not experimented with lots of drugs as many I know have, I am very aware of how many drugs/hormones/pheromones/etc. along with the right environmental conditions can completely engulf one's consciousness and lead one to perceive anything. As such, I am painfully aware that one's sense of reality is the shape of perception. The amount of reality is simply limited by the tools of perception. The amount of information around us (from every moment in time) is effectively infinite, thus as you change your perception, you can perceive things that using your standard filters you would normally miss. So, in all this infinite temporal information field, what is real?

Cheers.

[TargeT]

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
Hm.. I believe that Hypnosis is real and not a magic show.

What I don't know is how far can you go it with? How much is our brain working in a different state? and how much is a just a TV show?

only works on the weak mind however

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)

So this is really my interest in hypnosis. Could it be used as spiritual tool to help us break free? (free from what?) Is there more to hypnosis than those "funny, look-how-silly-you-are" shows? Do I ever have an "original thought" or is it all a pre-programmed reaction by the books and so called teachings that I've read, by the ads I see all day and so on.

9eagle9 does this I think, perhaps she'll post to confirm

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
It seems, through my filters, that you suggest hypnosis is a tool to alter belief systems. And this tools is actually based on the belief system itself. Since some cannot be hypnotized and others can be "hyper hypnotized" it seem you need to believe you can be hypnotized at some level, or are in fact "self hypnotic" all the time... hm...

You're talking about DATA, but the problem is... how can I perceive that RAW data? I seem to have filters that block me from seeing the data (like it does not register in my "awareness field") or I have filters that grossly skew said data.

Sometimes it feels like I am locked in a lit room and I hold the key in my pocket, but I keep my eyes closed and pretend I don't have the key so I get to "perceive myself" locked in the dark by some outside force. In that sense hypnosis could be the process of lying to oneself or building illusions around oneself. And taking that a bit further, perhaps hypnosis can be used to alter what I perceive as reality in a very dramatic way.

Hmm, fighting ego barriers, ego blocks you from seeing itself & ego is a part of the hypnosis (IMO) I'd wager that the more ego centric types are easier to "suggest" to...

but hopefuly its over come-able
http://www.grandrecognition.com/Gran...struction.html

[Cottage Rose]

It is a highly productive excercise to learn to transition in and out of self hypnotic states at will, while monitoring "self-talk". So, experiencing either a a self induced or incoming destructive/non-productive thought? ...... Shift into a self-hypnotic state and eliminate the "weed" before it takes root and does any damage. Fun mental gymnastics. The subconscious mind takes words literally, though. I consider the writing of effective self-hypnotic scripts to be a fine art. It is, in effect, creating one's reality.

[sandy]

Hi Ilie,

And taking that a bit further, perhaps hypnosis can be used to alter what I perceive as reality in a very dramatic way.[/QUOTE]

If you "believe" that, then You can