+ Reply to Thread
Page 31 of 89 FirstFirst 1 21 31 41 81 89 LastLast
Results 601 to 620 of 1779

Thread: The Bible

  1. Link to Post #601
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    it just hit me like a ton of bricks

    why so many have a problem with God


    they are trying to understand infinity with finite minds

    and so cannot but diminish God to fit reason


    that is why it is always best to be still and silent ; )

  2. Link to Post #602
    Serbia Avalon Member Beren's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th March 2010
    Location
    Belgrade,Serbia
    Posts
    1,304
    Thanks
    4,218
    Thanked 5,316 times in 947 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    it just hit me like a ton of bricks

    why so many have a problem with God


    they are trying to understand infinity with finite minds

    and so cannot but diminish God to fit reason


    that is why it is always best to be still and silent ; )

    That`s the thing exactly Red!

    There was Paul expressing his admiration to a situation when he knew one man who went up into heavenly dimension and seen thing and heard thing which cannot be expressed by human languages.

    Hencefore the call of Christ to not judge.
    When we judge we impose limit.
    God is limitless.
    Every effort to limit the limitless is futile.

    This is my admiration to Bible for there I find always a lot of hidden gems. It`s not that God hid them in the Bible. They are everywhere - just my eyes and senses didn`t saw them .

    For example today I read something from Corinthians - about law of Moses and Christ and the law of freedom.
    Law of Moses was basically a kindergarden law for mankind .Fit for a time of a very low consciousness upon Earth.
    Then a time approached when kids needed to grow and Christ came and brought the law of freedom.

    But then we see further in Galatians how people clinged to be back into kindergarden of Mosaic law.
    It`s a devolution process not welcome but available to us.

    Everything served its purpose and so Mosaic law did.

    Law of freedom is the law of Love. And here`s the catch - you cannot be free if you cling onto something outside of Love.
    In Love you claim your own divine nature and fly.
    In other ways you do not claim your power and rely onto whatever is there- you`re giving away your power.
    Love, love - and see what happens

  3. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Beren For This Post:

    GCS1103 (14th March 2012), greybeard (11th March 2012), niki (14th March 2012), panopticon (12th March 2012), RedeZra (12th March 2012)

  4. Link to Post #603
    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2011
    Posts
    2,591
    Thanks
    8,262
    Thanked 8,009 times in 2,305 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    it just hit me like a ton of bricks
    why so many have a problem with God
    they are trying to understand infinity with finite minds
    and so cannot but diminish God to fit reason
    G'day RedeZra,

    Exactly.
    Not only that but language, which by its nature limits understanding, is used as the means of defining and understanding.

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    that is why it is always best to be still and silent ; )
    Now that makes sense!
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to panopticon For This Post:

    RedeZra (12th March 2012)

  6. Link to Post #604
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    The Gospel





    Christ is good at being God

  7. Link to Post #605
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    i am not real said a Buddhist

    but I AM says Christ


    your Passion was not for me

    i don't even have a soul

    but I fashioned you


    i am impermanence

    but I change not


    why try to run from yourself

    when you can imitate Me



    the sun has no shadow

    and I AM light




  8. Link to Post #606
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    20th March 2010
    Location
    Within a few kilometers of Avalon
    Age
    78
    Posts
    1,702
    Thanks
    3,990
    Thanked 7,178 times in 1,466 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    My old brother Red,

    I see you are still here selling tickets to a failed bridge. I'm quoting (below) from something you said in another thread. Since I don't feel this response is appropriate in that particular thread, I'll give you my input here, in this Biblical Thread, where this response belongs.

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    [....snip]
    i'm sorry but if it's in Scripture then it's true ; )(highlighting by observer to point-out the absurdity of this concept)
    [....snip]
    Had you pursued any of the evidence you have been offered by many of the members in this forum since all the way back to the old Avalon, you would have realized by now that :

    1. The book known as the Holy Bible was manufactured over a period of three hundred plus years through the clever editing of existing manuscripts (in the case of the Old Testament) and skillfully produced documents (in the case of the New Testament). All by a secret cabal known as the Piso hidden deep within the Roman secret society known as the Roman College of Architects. All for the design purpose of perpetuating the Roman Empire into the twenty first century in the form of the Holy Roman Empire. That which the Roman Empire once controlled through political force, is now controlled by the Holy (Catholic) Roman Empire through the control of the mind - specifically through the use of the book that was created by that Roman Empire - The Holy Bible. Look it up Red, it's all there in the public record.

    2. In debate of your highlighted statement (above), I submit that the evidence will show the Old Testament is filled with outright lies and deliberate mistruths. The list is so long, it would require pages of text to document them all. Allow me to list some of the big ones:
    • How many days did it take to make the 'heavens and the earth"? Please justify your answer with the fact that the Hubble Telescope has measured the known universe to be fourteen billion light-years across - this measurement is ever growing.
    • How many gods were in the discussion of "let us make man in our image"?
    • How many years did it take for the (alleged) Israelites to follow Yahweh across the desert from the Nile Delta in Egypt to Jerusalem, in Canaan? Please take note this is a distance of only about two hundred fifty miles. If I were a man with no arms and no legs, and I had to belly crawl using my chin to motivate my body, I doubt it would take more than, say, five years to make a two hundred fifty mile journey. Yet Yahweh, in all his wisdom and foresight, led his 'chosen' people around in circles for forty years.
    • This begs the question, why? The evidence will show the reason lies in the fact that this Yahweh was allowing the adult community of the alleged Israelites to die-off in order to allow the 'Exodus Lie' to be indoctrinated into those who were born after Egypt into the false history of the Hebrew Nation. This was necessary so that there could be a justification for steeling the land of Canaan.
    • And, please, with the answers you offer, make sure they are intelligent enough to be considered by the critical thinking members of this forum.
    I could, again, offer pages of reference, but what's the point? I'll give two really good links because I know there are only a few on this forum who will go to the trouble of doing the research:
    • A link to Dr. Joseph P. Farrell's interview on "Yahweh The Two Faced God":
    Quote Posted by Helvetic (here)
    Click-on the 'quote >> forward' icon and find the Windows Media Player for the first hour of the interview.
    • Ralph Ellis - Egypt , the Hyksos , Pharaohs and the Bible:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=qgodw...ure=plpp_video


    Dare I suggest you follow on your own initiative the many other evidential trails available.

    As always, wishing you Love.... for eternity.... g
    Last edited by observer; 14th March 2012 at 04:03. Reason: spelling

  9. Link to Post #607
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    My old brother Red,

    I see you are still here selling tickets to a failed bridge.

    wb Observer bro

    i'm just expounding Scripture

    and usin it as a backdrop to understand ourselves our world and event past present and future


    i have shown evidence for the remains of Noah's ark in Ararat and the Saudi lockdown of Mount Sinai

    i have pointed to the discoveries of Ron Wyatt who even found the Blood of Jesus and put it to the test in an Israeli lab

    i have shared many testimonies from people about the livin God Jesus Christ

    i have used logic poetry and common sense to tie the story of Scripture to the sky spirituality and practical reality


    you no longer have an excuse to bombastically deny the Bible


    i am hintin to what will happen in the world before it happens

    all accordin to Scripture and not my own mind



    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    1. The book known as the Holy Bible was manufactured over a period of three hundred plus years through the clever editing of existing manuscripts (in the case of the Old Testament) and skillfully produced documents (in the case of the New Testament). All by a secret cabal known as the Piso hidden deep within the Roman secret society known as the Roman College of Architects. All for the design purpose of perpetuating the Roman Empire into the twenty first century in the form of the Holy Roman Empire. That which the Roman Empire once controlled through political force, is now controlled by the Holy (Catholic) Roman Empire through the control of the mind - specifically through the use of the book that was created by that Roman Empire - The Holy Bible. Look it up Red, it's all there in the public record.

    this is just absurd Observer

    the Old Testament is the Greek translation of the ancient Hebrew Bible

    and this story was written down between 1500 and 500 years before Christ



    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    [*]How many days did it take to make the 'heavens and the earth"? Please justify your answer with the fact that the Hubble Telescope has measured the known universe to be fourteen billion light-years across - this measurement is ever growing.

    we cannot compare ourselves to God

    Scripture says God spent six days creating the heavens and the earth and everything in them

    six God days or six human days ?

    God is eternal

    so one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day


    besides what the Bible is hintin to here

    is that mankind will labour for six millennia before rest in blessedness



    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    [*]How many gods were in the discussion of "let us make man in our image"?

    there were already angels in Heaven before God made Adam and Eve

    elohim is plural for God or gods spirits and angels



    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    [*]How many years did it take for the (alleged) Israelites to follow Yahweh across the desert from the Nile Delta in Egypt to Jerusalem, in Canaan? Please take note this is a distance of only about two hundred fifty miles. If I were a man with no arms and no legs, and I had to belly crawl using my chin to motivate my body, I doubt it would take more than, say, five years to make a two hundred fifty mile journey. Yet Yahweh, in all his wisdom and foresight, led his 'chosen' people around in circles for forty years.

    why don't you read about it in the Bible why God made them wander for 40 years in the desert

    it's all there


    but it was because the Israelites had seen the power of God and still fell back to idol worship whinin and did not trust God would help them conquer the Nephilim or Giants in Canaan



    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    [*]This begs the question, why? The evidence will show the reason lies in the fact that this Yahweh was allowing the adult community of the alleged Israelites to die-off in order to allow the 'Exodus Lie' to be indoctrinated into those who were born after Egypt into the false history of the Hebrew Nation. This was necessary so that there could be a justification for steeling the land of Canaan.

    this is seriously not fact but just your imagination

    it is we who have been slowly but surely brainwashed to not believe the Bible



    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    [*]And, please, with the answers you offer, make sure they are intelligent enough to be considered by the critical thinking members of this forum.

    it is not critical thinking at all to deny and dismiss Scripture

    just predictive programmin


    i will state that all the thousand lies through all the channels

    have but one goal


    to make us forget Jesus Christ and what He took and accomplished for us on the Cross

    so we won't go there and receive our forgiveness
    Last edited by RedeZra; 14th March 2012 at 04:29.

  10. Link to Post #608
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    20th March 2010
    Location
    Within a few kilometers of Avalon
    Age
    78
    Posts
    1,702
    Thanks
    3,990
    Thanked 7,178 times in 1,466 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    1. The book known as the Holy Bible was manufactured over a period of three hundred plus years through the clever editing of existing manuscripts (in the case of the Old Testament) and skillfully produced documents (in the case of the New Testament). All by a secret cabal known as the Piso hidden deep within the Roman secret society known as the Roman College of Architects. All for the design purpose of perpetuating the Roman Empire into the twenty first century in the form of the Holy Roman Empire. That which the Roman Empire once controlled through political force, is now controlled by the Holy (Catholic) Roman Empire through the control of the mind - specifically through the use of the book that was created by that Roman Empire - The Holy Bible. Look it up Red, it's all there in the public record.

    this is just absurd Observer

    the Old Testament is the Greek translation of the ancient Hebrew Bible

    and this story was written down between 1500 and 500 years before Christ

    Yes, well red,

    Read exactly what I said. "....the Holy Bible was manufactured over a period of three hundred plus years through the clever editing of existing manuscripts (in the case of the Old Testament)".

    It is generally accepted the translation from Hebrew to Greek was the work of Josephus Flavius. If you take note, there were two contemporary Roman Emperors with the name Flavius. The Flavius name was a branch of the Piso family of Rome. Julius Cesar's last wife was a Piso. Herod was married to a relation of the Piso. Cleopatra was a distant relative of the Piso family. This is all history, Red. I'm not making this up. Go do the research.

    As I already stated, the Piso were well steeped in the secret society known as the Roman College of Architects. This family reappears throughout the history of the Roman Empire as one of the elite. The Bush family can trace their ancestry back to the Piso of Rome.

    What you are doing is referred to as circular reasoning. You are using the text from the Bible to prove the validity of Biblical text. You would do better with this technique if you were mesmerizing a class of twelve and fourteen year olds with your 'fire and brimstone' rhetoric.

    What I had hoped you would do is go outside of your apologetic references and seek some real historic evidence. Did you listen to Dr. Farrell's interview as I previously suggested. Dr. Farrell has a PhD in patristics from Oxford. I do believe this makes him a tad more qualified to lecture on early biblical text than you.

    From the time I posted my previous comment, to the time you made your lengthily reply, you couldn't have possibly listened to Dr. Farrell all the way through. You made two posts in another thread during that interim period of time. So, as I previously said about posting links, "why should I bother"?

    Now, I'm not referring to the pseudo evidence that you are prone to offering.

    For instance, it is a well known fact that indigenous peoples around the globe have a flood mythology of one sort or another. In fact the story of Noah in the Bible is almost a verbatim plagiarization of a text at least a millennium more ancient than the Old Testament called the Erdu Genesis - just the names and places are changed. This alone could account for the discovery of an alleged arc in Turkey.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth[url]

    As for your 'Blood of Christ' videos, incomplete data the last time I looked.

    And, your chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea? Of course there was a pursuit of the ancient Pharaoh tribe of Egypt known as the Hyksos. They pillaged Egypt of great value on their exodus, so why wouldn't there be chariot wheels left behind by those who were pursuing?

    You really should spend some time looking into who were the Essenes and how did they figured into the Christ story.

    Just in case you need a little boost in this area, think Gnostic Christians when you see the word Essenes. The Roman empire spent nearly two centuries purging these Gnostic Christians from the face of the earth in their scheme to create a new religion based around trinity Christianity. This is what the Piso were up to. Go look it up.

    ....statement of finalization removed by observer....

    Research links:
    The Mystery of the Essenes -
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=n-UeK...ure=plpp_video

    David Icke - The Biggest Secret - Chapter 5 -
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bi...stsecret05.htm
    Last edited by observer; 16th March 2012 at 21:29. Reason: add links/remove statement

  11. Link to Post #609
    United States Avalon Member gripreaper's Avatar
    Join Date
    2nd January 2011
    Posts
    3,979
    Thanks
    9,625
    Thanked 29,695 times in 3,744 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    I love this episode of Seinfeld as it characterizes the absurdity of the myth of hell. The classic moment is at the very end.



    https://youtube.com/watch?v=L3BDY...layer_embedded

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to gripreaper For This Post:

    heyokah (14th March 2012), observer (14th March 2012), panopticon (14th March 2012)

  13. Link to Post #610
    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2011
    Posts
    2,591
    Thanks
    8,262
    Thanked 8,009 times in 2,305 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    G'day All,
    For those who don't want to go through this thread here's some of what I've presented previously...
    I commented on Ron Wyatt's Mount Ararat and Noah's Ark claim here:

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    Below is the original 1948 Associated Press article of what later became known as the 'Durupinar' site that you were referring too. I have lots of evidence that the site you mention is a natural formation (some of it even from creationist sources!).

    Very few now believe that this is the site of "Noah's Ark" other than Seventh Day Adventists (Ron Wyatt, by the way, was a Seventh Day Adventist).
    Here is a report from Turkish Geologist Murat Avci that states clearly and concisely that it is a natural formation. The below article is important as the actions on the stone by the ice explains the geological formation. By the way, this isn't the only formation of this shape in that region. It is however the only one that is about the right size and can be made to fit into a literal interpretation.
    Further to my argument previously presented regards the claims made by Wyatt that he had definitive proof that Noah's Ark had been discovered on the slopes of Mount Ararat in Turkey I would place into evidence the work of creationist minister and geologist Andrew A. Snelling taken from his paper titled 'Special Report: Amazing “Ark” Exposé Spectacular Claims, a Misleading Video, People Misquoted and Misrepresented . . . It's No Wonder Many Have Asked the Question . . . Could This Be Noah’s Ark?'.

    Quote The Main Claims at a Glance
    True/False?
    Radar shows man-made (boat) structure. . .. . .. . ..FALSE
    There is a regular metallic pattern. . .. . .. . .. . .FALSE
    Lab tests show petrified laminated wood. . .. . ...FALSE
    Turkish scientists found metal rods. . .. . .. . .. . .FALSE
    Metal artefacts have been proved by lab. . .. . ...FALSE
    There are ‘ship’s ribs’ showing. . .. . .. . .. . .. . ..FALSE
    There is lots of petrified wood. . .. . .. . .. . .. . ..FALSE
    Turkish Commission says ‘it’s a boat. . .. . .. . ...FALSE
    In regards to the entire of the Exodus story there is no evidence (outside of the Bible and an oft mis-quoted Egyptian pillar) that it happened. None, nada, not a scrap anywhere... Yes there may have been some Canaanites/Israelites in Egypt but certainly not in the numbers that are usually presented. If there is any, and I mean any, incontrovertible proof (excluding bible stories) then please present it as I am quite happy for the Exodus to have occurred, just can't find any evidence of it.

    There has been some exceptional information presented in this thread regarding the possibility that those who interpret the Bible in a literal sense may be incorrect. Modwiz presented an excellent article that anyone interested in the historical Israelites may find interesting:
    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post376479

    There again why should we let the truth get in the way of a good story?
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon

    Sources and Further Information:
    http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyattnoah.html
    http://isfn.skytech.co.il/Default.aspx
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...ing-ark-expose
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home...a_snelling.asp
    http://noahsarksearch.com/
    http://noahsarksearch.com/AvciMurat/...rEarthFlow.pdf
    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post372256
    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post376479
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to panopticon For This Post:

    observer (14th March 2012), RedeZra (14th March 2012)

  15. Link to Post #611
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    It is generally accepted the translation from Hebrew to Greek was the work of Josephus Flavius. If you take note, there were two contemporary Roman Emperors with the name Flavius. The Flavius name was a branch of the Piso family of Rome. Julius Cesar's last wife was a Piso. Herod was married to a relation of the Piso. Cleopatra was a distant relative of the Piso family. This is all history, Red. I'm not making this up. Go do the research.

    the Septuagint is the translation into Ancient Greek of the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament

    Jewish scholars first translated the Torah into Koine Greek in the 3rd century BCE

    the traditional explanation is that Ptolemy II sponsored the translation for use by the many Alexandrian Jews who were fluent in Koine Greek but not in Hebrew


    so the Old Testament translated into Koine Greek was completed centuries before Jesus and Josephus



    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    What I had hoped you would do is go outside of your apologetic references and seek some real historic evidence. Did you listen to Dr. Farrell's interview as I previously suggested. Dr. Farrell has a PhD in patristics from Oxford. I do believe this makes him a tad more qualified to lecture on early biblical text than you.
    i don't trust our establishment because i have seen the fruit of their works

    so PhD just don't impress me ; )
    Last edited by RedeZra; 14th March 2012 at 18:13.

  16. Link to Post #612
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    In regards to the entire of the Exodus story there is no evidence (outside of the Bible and an oft mis-quoted Egyptian pillar) that it happened. None, nada, not a scrap anywhere... Yes there may have been some Canaanites/Israelites in Egypt but certainly not in the numbers that are usually presented. If there is any, and I mean any, incontrovertible proof (excluding bible stories) then please present it as I am quite happy for the Exodus to have occurred, just can't find any evidence of it.

    i don't call this evidence but proof for the Exodus

    what can i do if you see and don't see ?





    Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia




    Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. - Exodus 3:1

    for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia,... - Galatians 4:25






  17. Link to Post #613
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    it is not possible for anybody to hide His story in the sky

    the heavens declare His glory and the stars constellations and planets tell it




    The Star of Bethlehem







    the earth seen from the moon

    when the Lamb of God expired on the Cross


    Last edited by RedeZra; 14th March 2012 at 18:44.

  18. Link to Post #614
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    remember the two rebels

    upon their crosses

    one on His right and one on His left


    they are you and me


    revile or repent

    this is our choice







    Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

    But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?

    "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."


    Then he said to Jesus, "Remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

    And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." - Luke 23:39-43
    Last edited by RedeZra; 14th March 2012 at 20:05.

  19. Link to Post #615
    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2011
    Posts
    2,591
    Thanks
    8,262
    Thanked 8,009 times in 2,305 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    i don't call this evidence but proof for the Exodus
    what can i do if you see and don't see ?
    Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia

    Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. - Exodus 3:1
    for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia,... - Galatians 4:25
    G'day RedeZra,

    Thank you for the reply and associated video excerpt.

    I'm sorry to report that I can not view Ron Wyatt as a reliable source of information. I'll first quote from a paper by Gordon Franz in regards to Wyatt's claims:
    Quote As popular as this idea may be in certain evangelical (and even Jewish) circles, there is no credible historical, geographical, archaeological or Biblical evidence for the thesis that Mt. Sinai is at Jebel al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia.
    The following is taken from a letter written by a member of Wyatt's dig team (Bernard Brandstater) at the 'Garden Tomb' site in Jerusalem and I present it to show how a friend and participant in his adventures viewed his findings (I apologise for the length of the quote but felt that it was important to show as part of my position and reasoning):

    Quote Large numbers of sincere, truth-seeking believers have been impressed, even excited, by the reports of remarkable discoveries by Ron Wyatt in ancient Bible lands. Even some well-informed students of scripture have been persuaded that there is genuine merit in Mr. Wyatt's findings. On the other hand there are scholars who take the opposite view, and dismiss his views as unsupported by hard evidence, not deserving serious consideration.

    I am reporting here my own personal experience with Mr.Wyatt, in the hope this will shed some light on his style and his trustworthiness as an observer. While my acquaintance with him led me to reject his archaeological findings, I persist in dealing gently with him as a well-intentioned person and as a Christian.

    At the outset I should say that I knew Wyatt well, and had an up-close opportunity to evaluate his claims and his personal credibility. This happened in the late 1980's, when I joined Wyatt's digging team in East Jerusalem, expecting he would lead us to the underground cavern in which he had personally seen--so he had assured me--the gold-overlaid holy furniture from Solomon's Temple. It had been hidden there, he said, by the priests during the Babylonian siege in 586 BC. As he told it, it was a gripping story, and somewhat believable to someone with a romantic bent. It wasn't hard to imagine the senior Levites, foreseeing the imminent collapse of Jerusalem's defenses, plotting to hide the precious furnishings, during midnight darkness, in a secret cavern in the no-man's land outside the city walls.

    Wyatt not only constructed this story: he claimed he had found the cavern. I had first met him, many months before, in the Hotel Ararat in Dogubeyazit, at the foot of Mount Ararat in Eastern Turkey. The hotel's humble foyer was buzzing with the comings and goings of men hunting for Noah's Ark. Amongst them all, Wyatt stood out, a tall impressive bearded figure, striding around with great self-assurance. He had in his hands a sheaf of large photographs showing his preferred site for the Ark, and he had the most persuasive story to back up his assertions. He had, I learned, a Seventh-day Adventist background, similar to my own, with a high view of scripture, so I felt inclined to listen respectfully to his story. Furthermore in real work-a-day life back home he was a nurse anesthetist, with interests similar to my own in anesthesiology. So we had some natural common ground. And at this first meeting I listened to his views, but kept an open mind.

    ....

    Our team proceeded to the Garden Tomb, whose custodians were expecting our arrival. Wyatt had negotiated cordially and successfully with them. With an assortment of gardening tools we set to work, moving a large pile of rubble and rock which had accumulated where Wyatt had probed earlier. Over several days we were able to excavate our way down into the same cave system that Wyatt had explored two years before. I'm sorry to report that in the end we came up empty-handed. The connecting channel through which Wyatt had claimed to see the furniture was not there. On the final day of excavation, when we could not see the internal cavern landmarks that Wyatt had predicted, Ron himself finally climbed down into the dim space. After a long time he emerged, looking confused. As we waited respectfully to hear his report, he mumbled a few words like: "It's not the same; it's changed. It's not the way I remember it." There was no opening to be seen, giving a view into an adjacent cavern. There was nothing. In the process of our digging we had come up with a few interesting little objects from Roman times, but they were irrelevant to our main goal.

    Our team was disappointed, puzzled, disillusioned. We had enjoyed ten days of close fellowship, with daily shared prayer times, and an excited anticipation of momentous events just before us. Now all those hopes came crashing down. And sadly, Wyatt was not man enough to come clean, to apologize for bringing us on a wild goose chase, or to attempt any kind of explanation. We kept expecting some sort of statement, but he just remained silent, withdrawn. And we were too stunned, and perhaps too sorry for him in his confusion, to demand that he explain.

    To this day I cannot give a rational account for the extreme misguidedness that Wyatt revealed. What was happening in his head? His participation in our group worship times had left all of us in no doubt about his sincerity and his devotion to Scripture. He was a competent Bible scholar. He was a brother. Yet he had misled us terribly, and had offered no words of regret or apology or explanation. I have reviewed the whole story many times since then, and am convinced that the church administrator was right: Wyatt might be mistaken, but he himself believed that what he had originally shared was true.

    From medical school I remember hearing of a rare state of mind, with a long Latin name, that led its victims to concoct marvelously detailed accounts of events that were pure fabrications, yet which the story-teller himself had come to believe were absolutely true. I am inclined to believe that Wyatt was a florid example of this disorder. He was not a deliberate liar, a fraud. And some of his observations had merit. But I am convinced that some of his "discoveries" were matters which underwent transcription in his mind, and he came to believe as true certain ideas and observations that in fact were his own inventions.

    This opinion became confirmed in my mind some time after the Jerusalem expedition. Wyatt was trying to convince everyone of the validity of his site for Noah's Ark. And in trying to convince me, he described some extraordinary details of the rock-and-earth formation that he believed gives us an outline of the Ark. He told me of probing with a tool into the earthen mound, and breaking into a cavity in which he could see--actually see--the remains of corroded metal "brackets" that he presumed were part of the Ark's construction. This description caught my attention--all of it. If Wyatt's report was factual, then we should get serious about his site for the Ark. But was Wyatt a trustworthy observer and reporter? Months later I followed up on this story, referring to my long-time friend John Baumgardner, who had personally visited Wyatt's Ark site, and had subjected the whole area to minute scrutiny, including a survey with penetrating radar. When I described to John the eyewitness report of Wyatt, he simply laughed and dismissed the whole thing. He assured me, beyond any doubt, that the Ark site under study revealed no cavitation as described by Wyatt, and that the description given to me was entirely a fabrication.
    There are many who question the validity of the arguments presented by Wyatt (and his advocates such as Cornuke) that 'Jebel al-Laws is Mount Sinai' from both a pragmatic perspective (eg. to far to travel) and a scholarly one (eg the language on the stone isn't ancient hebrew or arabic but probably a modern forgery). Add to that the evidence that the Mount Ararat ark site is a natural formation and that Cornuke hasn't had his 'burnt bit of rock' tested by a laboratory as he promised he would (15 years ago!) there should be at least a bit of a question in your mind RedeZra regards the validity of the claims made...

    I do have respect for your knowledge of the Bible, archaeology, history and peoples of the region in question just in this instance I think your faith in man may be mistaken.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon

    Sources And Further information:
    http://www.ldolphin.org/wyatt1.html
    http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabbl...jebel-al-lawz/
    http://www.archaeology.org/9805/abstracts/books.html
    http://www.lifeandland.org/2009/10/y...t-mount-sinai/
    http://www.lifeandland.org/2009/04/m...-saudi-arabia/
    http://www.lifeandland.org/2009/04/m...arabia-part-2/
    http://www.lifeandland.org/2009/04/m...arabia-part-3/
    http://www.ldolphin.org/franz-ellawz.html
    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...unt-sinai.aspx
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to panopticon For This Post:

    RedeZra (15th March 2012)

  21. Link to Post #616
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    I'm sorry to report that I can not view Ron Wyatt as a reliable source of information.

    hi Pan

    this is just because you choose to listen to his detractors

    which would be the establishment and their alternative agents


    first watch the clip shot at location around Mount Sinai


    then you can dig up the smears

    and let them convince you

    that you did not really see what you just saw ; )

  22. Link to Post #617
    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2011
    Posts
    2,591
    Thanks
    8,262
    Thanked 8,009 times in 2,305 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    I'm sorry to report that I can not view Ron Wyatt as a reliable source of information.
    hi Pan
    this is just because you choose to listen to his detractors
    which would be the establishment and their alternative agents
    G'day RedeZra,

    The sources I used are from creationist ministers and from people who participated in the digs with Wyatt.
    A rare bible quote from me... 2Tim 4:3-4
    Quote A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. People will refuse to listen to the truth and turn to myths.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to panopticon For This Post:

    RedeZra (15th March 2012)

  24. Link to Post #618
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    I'm sorry to report that I can not view Ron Wyatt as a reliable source of information.
    hi Pan
    this is just because you choose to listen to his detractors
    which would be the establishment and their alternative agents
    G'day RedeZra,

    The sources I used are from creationist ministers and from people who participated in the digs with Wyatt.

    just watch the clip and make up your own mind ; )


    oh and that Bible quote is directed at you

  25. Link to Post #619
    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2011
    Posts
    2,591
    Thanks
    8,262
    Thanked 8,009 times in 2,305 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    G'day RedeZra,

    I did watch the clip.
    Would you like me to supply further information from creationists and related evangelical sources as to the errors in Wyatt's claims?
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to panopticon For This Post:

    RedeZra (15th March 2012)

  27. Link to Post #620
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    18th March 2010
    Posts
    2,614
    Thanks
    2,698
    Thanked 2,424 times in 1,076 posts

    Default Re: The Bible

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    G'day RedeZra,

    I did watch the clip.
    Would you like me to supply further information from creationists and related evangelical sources as to the errors in Wyatt's claims?
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    oh so they convinced you that you didn't really see what you saw then ; )


    also creationists are compromised

+ Reply to Thread
Page 31 of 89 FirstFirst 1 21 31 41 81 89 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts