The Bible

[observer]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by observer (here)
The God of Unconditional Love requires no control.... no sacrifice.... no guilt.

the Bible does not portray Jesus as an unconditional loving being at all

from where did this Unconditional Love mantra originate ?

it sure isen't Scriptural

Red, my brother,

You are proving my point with your own failed circular logic.

That which the Bible represents as the story of Jesus is a corrupted historical account initiated by the Roman Empire to purge Gnostic Christianity and replace the REAL Christian movement with Trinity Christianity.

Have you ever researched the Cathar, annihilated in the Albigensian Crusade beginning in 1209 by the Holy Roman Empire?

Have you ever read anything from the Gnostic Christian libraries found in Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945? Or, in Qumran, Israel in 1947?

These documents were buried for nearly 2,000 years and have not been altered since they were spirited away by the Essene Community before the Roman Empire eliminated most of Gnostic Christians during the first and second centuries.

Jesus was most assuredly an Essene. In their time, the Essenes were also referred to as Nazarenes. That's because Nazareth was predominantly an Essene community, as was Qumran, the home of John the Baptist - another Essene. This is all evidence easily found in the archeological record.

None of what I'm telling you is scriptural. That's because the Bible is a well contrived lie.... Trinity Christianity is a lie - a production of the Roman Empire. Just look at what the Roman empire has gained by the creation of the book known as the Bible. The Holy Roman Empire is the single most powerful/wealthy entity on the planet - all due to the creation of the Bible.

Go educate yourself into the understanding that the Essenes were evangelizing regarding the relationship of The One True God.... The God of Unconditional Love to man.... to all men.

I've given you enough links to check-out what I'm telling you. All you need do is follow them.

For the majority of the members, Avalon is about new discoveries. This thread is stuck in old failed concepts. Let's all go find new understand for the failed systems that have brought so much human suffering to the planet for the past two millennium....
.

[greybeard]

Posted by observer (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by observer (here)
The God of Unconditional Love requires no control.... no sacrifice.... no guilt.

the Bible does not portray Jesus as an unconditional loving being at all

from where did this Unconditional Love mantra originate ?

it sure isen't Scriptural

Red, my brother,

You are proving my point with your own failed circular logic.

That which the Bible represents as the story of Jesus is a corrupted historical account initiated by the Roman Empire to purge Gnostic Christianity and replace the REAL Christian movement with Trinity Christianity.

Have you ever researched the Cathar, annihilated in the Albigensian Crusade beginning in 1209 by the Holy Roman Empire?

Have you ever read anything from the Gnostic Christian libraries found in Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945? Or, in Qumran, Israel in 1947?

These documents were buried for nearly 2,000 years and have not been altered since they were spirited away by the Essene Community before the Roman Empire eliminated most of Gnostic Christians during the first and second centuries.

Jesus was most assuredly an Essene. In their time, the Essenes were also referred to as Nazarenes. That's because Nazareth was predominantly an Essene community, as was Qumran, the home of John the Baptist - another Essene. This is all evidence easily found in the archeological record.

None of what I'm telling you is scriptural. That's because the Bible is a well contrived lie.... Trinity Christianity is a lie - a production of the Roman Empire. Just look at what the Roman empire has gained by the creation of the book known as the Bible. The Holy Roman Empire is the single most powerful/wealthy entity on the planet - all due to the creation of the Bible.

Go educate yourself into the understanding that the Essenes were evangelizing regarding the relationship of The One True God.... The God of Unconditional Love to man.... to all men.

I've given you enough links to check-out what I'm telling you. All you need do is follow them.

For the majority of the members, Avalon is about new discoveries. This thread is stuck in old failed concepts. Let's all go find new understand for the failed systems that have brought so much human suffering to the planet for the past two millennium....
.

I agree with the essence of what Observer has been pointing to.

The gospel of Thomas and other reports of the actual teaching of Jesus which have surfaced unedited tell a story of a loving God and Jesus expressing unconditional love.
How many going through a painful death would say "God forgive them for they know not what they do"
He did not say "If you do not ask for forgiveness my Father will send you to hell"
Thats what the bible says.

Jesus showed unconditional love in his final moments.
How much proof is needed of a God of unconditional love?
We -- with every though and deed- raise or lower our spiritual vibration.
Yes even if we have condemned our own self to hell (no loving God does that) the unconditional love is available to us.

Chris

[RedeZra]

Posted by observer (here)
That which the Bible represents as the story of Jesus is a corrupted historical account initiated by the Roman Empire to purge Gnostic Christianity and replace the REAL Christian movement with Trinity Christianity.

the Old Testament is a translation of the Hebrew Bible

the New Testament is the writings of the Apostles of Jesus

together they make up the Bible

which is the true account about God spirits humanity and destiny



the Livin Word of God is quite capable to preserve His works and words

so that we can know about Him our history and purpose

[RedeZra]

Posted by greybeard (here)
The gospel of Thomas and other reports of the actual teaching of Jesus which have surfaced unedited tell a story of a loving God and Jesus expressing unconditional love.
How many going through a painful death would say "God forgive them for they know not what they do"
He did not say "If you do not ask for forgiveness my Father will send you to hell"
Thats what the bible says.

the Gospel of Thomas was discovered among other Gnostic scrolls near Nag Hammadi

it is composed of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus and half of these sayings resemble those found in the New Testament

while it is speculated that the other sayings were added from Gnostic tradition


it is not possible to reconcile the Bible with Gnosticism

so one of them is false


Jesus says there is no mercy without repentance

if you refuse to repent

then you must receive the impartial Justice of God

[RedeZra]

Skull of Doom

this Mitchell-Hedges quartz crystal skull was allegedly discovered in 1924 by Anna an adopted daugther of British adventurer and popularist author F.A. Mitchell-Hedges

buried under a collapsed altar inside a temple in Lubaantun in British Honduras now Belize


in the early 1970s the skull was examined at Hewlett-Packard's crystal labs at Santa Clara and was found to be fashioned from a single crystal of quartz together with its moveable lower jaw


Anna has stated that she was "told by the few remaining Maya that the skull was used by the high priest to will death."


F. A. Mitchell-Hedges mentioned the skull only briefly in the first edition of his autobiography Danger My Ally (1954)

"it is at least 3,600 years old and according to legend it was used by the High Priest of the Maya when he was performing esoteric rites. It is said that when he willed death with the help of the skull, death invariably followed"



modern technology relies on quarts crystals to create electrical signals with very precise frequencies

to keep track of time to provide a stable clock signal for digital integrated circuits and to stabilize frequencies for radio transmitters and receivers


when tiny quartz crystals can store transmit and receive energy and a lot of information

then how powerful are quartz crystals the size of a human skulls


late last year Mayan Elder Hunbatz Men and his followin with an entourage of no less than 13 crystal skulls

set out on a journey to activate several sacred centers or power points across the US in order to facilitate the return of their gods

this event culminated in the Gateway Ceremony with 13 Mayan Elders and the 13 Crystal Skulls at Crystal Skull Conference on the 11-11-11 in Los Angeles or Lost Angels


this sounds like an invocation of the fallen angels

and their god Kukulkan is depicted as presiding over sacrifice scenes at Chichen Itza

[RedeZra]

has anybody been in Hell and back again to tell ?


there are plenty of near-death experiences

about heavenly and hellish realms

so why so sure there is no hell ?


is it because you know better

what it's like to be dead without even being dead


i'm sure Jesus own words in Scripture regarding hell won't convince you either

because you know better than the Son of God

about God and His mansions


who are you trying to fool ?

is it not enough that you are foolin yourselves


why drag people along with you

[panopticon]

G'day Observer,

Thanks for the link to the Ehrman lecture.
The full 'Misquoting Jesus: Scribes Who Altered Scripture and Readers Who May Never Know' speech is available here:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=O-1hdqNDQ9E

God is the son of a bloke named Aram. Classic copyist error!

I agree with the video that the Bible stories were first created and then changed over time to suit the needs of the people at that time. Makes sense to me anyway that inspirational stories would be used to inspire the repressed masses... Been saying it for years to anyone who will listen. ; )

Not so convinced by the Abelard Reuchlin "Arius/Josephus" hypothesis though. Yeah it's possible, but almost anything is possible. Yeah it's true that the Piso family was behind a part of the control/power manipulation in the first century CE but I am yet to be convinced by the Josephus/Pliny the Younger/Calpurnius Piso/Tacitus argument. Again it's possible, but it's just too complicated and very "un-Roman" for the period in question. The Roman's weren't above all the things mentioned in the hypothesis. They were crafty, ambitious and deceitful. They created personal and family histories when it suited them and did this especially when it would further/realise their ambitions. Gaius Calpurnius Piso did lead a revolt against Nero (called the Pisonian conspiracy) in 65 CE but that is as far as it goes really. For a Roman family to go to all the trouble that is alleged in the Reuchlin document and then not mention their family name is beyond unlikely. It wouldn't have been enough for them to allude to it through numerology or symbolism they would have had marching bands, dancing girls and all sorts of celebrations. They would have left documentation, a truck load of it, and if they didn't then their Greek scribes would have. The main flaw in the hypothesis, and the reason why I don't investigate it further, is that it is not the way that a Roman family would have behaved and I'm not really interested in something that can only ever end in conjecture.

So, in my opinion, is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.

Posted by observer (here)
Jesus was most assuredly an Essene. In their time, the Essenes were also referred to as Nazarenes. That's because Nazareth was predominantly an Essene community, as was Qumran, the home of John the Baptist - another Essene. This is all evidence easily found in the archeological record.

There is no evidence that Nazareth existed during the first half of the first century. There is lots of evidence that it didn't.
Check my previous posts on this for references. ; )

Yes, much of the Bible has been modified over the centuries. The examples Ehrman uses of the Gospels of John and Mark show this clearly and prove that the texts aren't the "word of God" as it was given in its original form (even if I were to believe that the texts were divinely inspired, which I don't). Still I'm more of the view that the texts that came to form the New Testament, and many from the period that didn't, were largely written as a means of rallying the defeated messianic/apocalyptic Jews following the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 CE. This was a psychological, sociological and cultural blow to these people and I am certain that many stories appeared in Jewish communities all over the Hellenised Roman world as part of a cultural introspection and explanation process.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Addendum:
Just to add the section in the Ehrman video regards Marcion was excellent. He is a little talked about figure in the early (2nd Century CE) Christian developmental period and was a major player in the formation of Catholic canon and dogma. His is a really interesting story and one of the turning points where Christian dogma went from unconditional love (Marcion rejected the God of the Tanakh) to the teachings that became dogma (because the Christian churches of the time needed an ancient lineage to remain viable).

[RedeZra]

according to the Synoptic Gospels a period of darkness occurred during Jesus crucifixion which took place on the first day of Passover


Now from the sixth hour [noon] until the ninth hour [3pm] there was darkness over all the land. - Mat 27:45

And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. - Mark 15:33

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. - Luke 23:44-45



this darkness could not be a solar eclipse since Passover is on a full moon

besides three hours of darkness during the day is too long for an eclipse



Phlegon of Tralles was a Greek writer during the reign of Augustus Caesar or emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD)

his chief work was the Olympiads an historical compendium in sixteen books from the 1st down to the 229th Olympiad (776 BC to AD 137)

now largely lost to history but several ancient historians have preserved some of his writings in their work


and most interestingly these historians mention a strange event which Phlegon recorded took place during the 4th year of the 202 Olympiad [32-33 AD]


Eusebius of Caesarea (264 – 340) in his Chronicle quotes Phlegon

"a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea"


Thallus was an early historian who wrote a three-volume history of the Mediterranean world in Koine Greek

mostly lost but some preserved by Sextus Julius Africanus in his History of the World

the 9th-century Christian chronologer George Syncellus cites Sextus Julius Africanus as writing in reference to the darkness mentioned in the synoptic gospels as occurring at the death of Jesus:

Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the Sun in the third book of his Histories.

Africanus then goes on to point out that an eclipse cannot occur at Passover when the moon is full and therefore diametrically opposite the Sun



the Apostle Peter hints to a blood moon connected with the Crucifixion

The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. - Acts 2:20


and because of computer software we can backtrack the sky over Jerusalem

and see a blood moon rising on April 3 33 AD

[kreagle]

Posted by observer (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by observer (here)
The God of Unconditional Love requires no control.... no sacrifice.... no guilt.

the Bible does not portray Jesus as an unconditional loving being at all

from where did this Unconditional Love mantra originate ?

it sure isen't Scriptural

Red, my brother,

You are proving my point with your own failed circular logic.

That which the Bible represents as the story of Jesus is a corrupted historical account initiated by the Roman Empire to purge Gnostic Christianity and replace the REAL Christian movement with Trinity Christianity.

Have you ever researched the Cathar, annihilated in the Albigensian Crusade beginning in 1209 by the Holy Roman Empire?

Have you ever read anything from the Gnostic Christian libraries found in Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945? Or, in Qumran, Israel in 1947?

These documents were buried for nearly 2,000 years and have not been altered since they were spirited away by the Essene Community before the Roman Empire eliminated most of Gnostic Christians during the first and second centuries.

Jesus was most assuredly an Essene. In their time, the Essenes were also referred to as Nazarenes. That's because Nazareth was predominantly an Essene community, as was Qumran, the home of John the Baptist - another Essene. This is all evidence easily found in the archeological record.

None of what I'm telling you is scriptural. That's because the Bible is a well contrived lie.... Trinity Christianity is a lie - a production of the Roman Empire. Just look at what the Roman empire has gained by the creation of the book known as the Bible. The Holy Roman Empire is the single most powerful/wealthy entity on the planet - all due to the creation of the Bible.

Go educate yourself into the understanding that the Essenes were evangelizing regarding the relationship of The One True God.... The God of Unconditional Love to man.... to all men.

I've given you enough links to check-out what I'm telling you. All you need do is follow them.

For the majority of the members, Avalon is about new discoveries. This thread is stuck in old failed concepts. Let's all go find new understand for the failed systems that have brought so much human suffering to the planet for the past two millennium....
.

Hello observer,

You are certainly on target when you have "observed" that the Roman Empire was responsible for introducing the false man-made doctrine of the Trinity,...specifically put in full play at the Council of Nicaea 325 A.D. I couldn't agree more with you than on this major Christian topic!!

The presentation of "One God" to us in Scripture has always been the only one accepted by our Supreme Deity, the Lord Himself.

Deuteronomy 6:4-7
King James Version (KJV)

4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.


In connection with your observation, you equally state that this makes the Bible a lie. You greatly err in this, my friend, in that this is the equivalent of "throwing the baby out with the bath water" type of mentality.

Jesus certainly knew that His Word would come under extreme scrutiny over the course of time, but that It would also stand this satanic onslaught and prevail victoriously in the long run.

Matthew 24:35
King James Version (KJV)

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

again


Matthew 16:18
King James Version (KJV)

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You speak of "The One True God", and the need to "educate yourself" on this all important topic. Truer words cannot possibly be spoken, my friend.

Titus 2:11-15
King James Version (KJV)

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

also

1 Timothy 6:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

As one should be able to clearly see, the above two scripture references boldly proclaim to us all that He is our great God and Saviour, plus our only Potentate,(meaning "One" who controls welding power!!!), and follows up by revealing to us His anointed New Testament name,......JESUS!

Finally, in "keeping with The One True God theme",......this is why the Apostles baptized "only in the name of Jesus Christ" every single time according to the Scriptures,....and not in His "titles" of "Father,....Son,.....and Holy Ghost!!!" (This "trinitarian formula" for baptism was, as you've alluded to earlier, adopted by the Roman Empire and they "CHANGED" baptism to include infant baptisms, sprinkling water instead of full immersion, and "MOST IMPORTANTLY" eliminating the "saving name of our God,.....Jesus,.....for his titles,.....of Father,....Son,....and Holy Ghost.)

Does the scripture indicate that it's important to invoke the name of God, Jesus Christ, during the act of baptism as opposed to using His titles,....Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Does it really matter? The Scripture certainly says so!!

Acts 4:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The following are scriptural references to baptisms performed by the Apostles as the New Testament Church was established. They never deviated from this baptismal formula!

1) New Testament Church-Age began

Acts 2:38
King James Version (KJV)

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2) The Samaritans were baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost

Acts 8:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

3) Cornelius and his household,( the first Gentiles), were baptized

Acts 10:44-48
King James Version (KJV)

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(**note: while the KJV has this recorded as "name of the Lord",...it should be also noted that the Revised Version, Amplified Version, Living Bible, New International Version, and Greek Interlinear,(or original text),...."ALL" record verse 48 above as......"and he commanded them in the name of Jesus Christ to be baptized...")

4) Disciples of John the Baptist were re-baptized by the Apostle Paul

Acts 19:1-7
King James Version (KJV)

Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

In conclusion, the best laid plans of Satan cannot and will not prevent the honest heart from seeking out and finding the "truth" that's contained within the written Word of God,...."if" he/she really wants to find it and then apply it to their lives.

Matthew 5:6
King James Version (KJV)

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

When mankinds' "hunger and thirst" level reaches a "critical" point,....it's amazing how this "wonderful truth" has a way of manifesting itself to them. Remember,...God never "force-feeds" anyone!

John 8:32
King James Version (KJV)

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Love and Peace,.....kreagle

[observer]

Excellent research, panopticon.

Posted by panopticon (here)
G'day Observer,
Not so convinced by the Abelard Reuchlin "Arius/Josephus" hypothesis though.[....snip]
....The main flaw in the hypothesis, and the reason why I don't investigate it further, is that it is not the way that a Roman family would have behaved and I'm not really interested in something that can only ever end in conjecture.

So, in my opinion, is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.

I have only highlighted portions of the above paragraph so you will know to which I am referring.

Although I concur that the theory is only conjecture, I believe there is compelling circumstantial evidence to suggest the possibilities are accurate. I would also conclude we would both agree the entire New Testament is purely conjecture.

In the examination of this evidence, one must factor-in the understanding of a secret society being involved - The Roman College of Architects. This is the foreshadowing cabal that is incorporated into the cabal that continues to control the world - to this very day.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/comacine.html
And, see this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associa...n_Ancient_Rome

This secret is something an highly initiated member of such a cabal would surely take to one's grave. One can only piece-together the fragments of evidence from the archeological record.

Posted by panopticon (here)
There is no evidence that Nazareth existed during the first half of the first century. There is lots of evidence that it didn't.
Check my previous posts on this for references. ; )

I tried to find the reference but was unable to locate the comment.

This fact is something of which I too am aware. I've read several different interpretations of this in various presentations in my research. The one most likely is that there was, in the early first century a small hamlet-type village called Nazareth at the present location with only a few families. There is no doubt that a much larger community grew-up around that location in later centuries.

The point that cannot be refuted, however, is that the entire area around Mount Carmel, the area where Nazareth is located, was an Essene stronghold. Also, that the Essenes were referred to as 'Nazarenes' in that time. Thus, it's quite possible, through the three hundred year period of time that the Jesus Story was being manipulated, the "Jesus of Nazareth" tag was mutated from "Jesus the Nazarene".

Other than these two points, I believe we both are in much agreement. I appreciate your participation in this debate.

Additionally, the point I was making earlier, panopticon, regarding the "Antiquities of the Jews", the translations from Hebrew to Greek found within the first ten chapters were used throughout the three hundred year build-up to what happened at the First Council of Nicieaa in 325 CE.

[observer]

Posted by kreagle (here)
[....snip]

Thank you for your response, kreagle.

You have gone to much effort to extract passages from the Bible to support your point. Unfortunately, this technique is more of what I've referred to as 'circular logic' earlier in this debate with RedaZar. You can't use the words of the Bible to prove the accuracy of Biblical Text. Thank you for your effort, however.

The problem lies with the fact that my point is: The Gnostic Christians, i.e. the Essenes, and later in history, the Cathar, believed the god of the Old Testament was a fraud. They believed in the "One True God", whom the Cathar later referred to as Amor, The God of Love. It was for this theology that agents of the Roman Empire such as St. Ignatius, and St. Iranians spent their entire lives declaring these Original Christians, heretics.

If this was the belief of the Original Christian community, than the understanding created by compiling and then skillfully editing the Old Testament and the New Testament into one book in such a way as to prove an exclusive divinity of Jesus is false, i.e. the creation of Trinity Christianity. This exclusive divinity of Jesus was NOT what the Original Christian community believed, and it was because of this belief that the Roman Empire exterminated them.

No one commenting in this thread is denying the existance of God. The question is, in which God do you believe? .... The God of the Original Christians, the Essenes, or the God of the Roman Empire?

You may gain better understanding of what I'm talking about if you listen to the Dr. Joseph Farrell interview:

First hour of a 2 hour interview with Dr. Joseph P. Farrell:

download mp3

[andrei]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
has anybody been in Hell and back again to tell ?


there are plenty of near-death experiences

about heavenly and hellish realms

so why so sure there is no hell ?


is it because you know better

what it's like to be dead without even being dead


i'm sure Jesus own words in Scripture regarding hell won't convince you either

because you know better than the Son of God

about God and His mansions


who are you trying to fool ?

is it not enough that you are foolin yourselves


why drag people along with you

I hate to tell you, but hell is just another invention of your beloved Vatican. Should i remind you how priests were taxing everyone, how even the poor pesants had to pay heavy coin to the priesthood so that their sins will be forgiven and so that they wont end up in your so called "hell" ?
I am a beliver just like you, however, do you really think God put us here so that we can burn in hell ? I think we are here to help and teach eachother, to learn what love is and to gain wisdom, and that also includes LEARNING FROM OUR MISTAKES (call them sins if you like).
Those are not Jesus`s word in the Scripture, those are written by men just like you and me, MANY years after He died. Those men copied after eachother, translated scrolls from different languages, and then the heads of the church decided what parts the like and what they dont. That is your Bible. The same thing goes for many religious writings. The only place where you can find truth is in your heart, stop looking at what others say or write for answers. The only one how is fooling himself here is you, i am sorry to say this, but beliving in something is good, however it becomes something else the moment you start shoving it into people`s faces, especially when you do not know who wrote what and if they actually wrote the EXACT words, or understood the EXACT meaning when they translated form older writings.
I was baptized orthodox when i was born, but to be honest it matters little, those are just titles we give to ourselves. Many of my friends are muslim, protestants, catholics, and a whole lot of atheists, and i love all of them the same, they are all my brothers and sisters, but i will never go around telling anyone that they will burn in some imaginary hell for not beliving in "MY God", or contesting "My Holy Book".
A good argument is always healthy, it just stops being so when people start saying "because MY God said so".
Sorry for my grammar, and i apologize if my text was a bit harsh.

[panopticon]

Posted by observer (here)
I tried to find the reference but was unable to locate the comment.

This fact is something of which I too am aware. I've read several different interpretations of this in various presentations in my research. The one most likely is that there was, in the early first century a small hamlet-type village called Nazareth at the present location with only a few families. There is no doubt that a much larger community grew-up around that location in later centuries.

The point that cannot be refuted, however, is that the entire area around the Mount of Olives, the area where Nazareth is located, was an Essene stronghold. Also, that the Essenes were referred to as 'Nazarenes' in that time. Thus, it's quite possible, through the three hundred year period of time that the Jesus Story was being manipulated, the "Jesus of Nazareth" tag was mutated from "Jesus the Nazarene".

Other than these two points, I believe we both are in much agreement. I appreciate your participation in this debate.

Additionally, the point I was making earlier, panopticon, regarding the "Antiquities of the Jews", the translations from Hebrew to Greek found within the first ten chapters were used throughout the three hundred year build-up to what happened at the First Council of Nicieaa in 325 CE.

G'day Observer,

Got no problems with the quoted material above other than I'm not sure what you mean by 'what happened at the First Council of Nicaea'?

I'm a tad busy at the moment, and it's quite late here, so please forgive the quick reply.
I'm listing some of the references that I've used in coming to my conclusions and hope they are helpful.

Once again I'd like to clarify my position on this. I don't care if Nazareth existed or not at the time attributed to the birth of Jesus. I am only interested in the information and evidence that describes the cultural influences that assisted in the formation of the early Christian church and how these influences worked on the development process of the community groups. I admit that I am swayed by Salm's hypothesis but this doesn't mean he is my only source or point of reference. I have also read many rebutals to Salm's hypothesis and while some are well constructed (some of them are just rants against the non-believer and essentially says he's going to "burn in hell") I have been unable to find conclusive archaeological evidence that counters it. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist of course might just mean that either I haven't found reference to it or it hasn't been discovered yet. There again maybe there isn't any evidence as it wasn't there at the time...

I view you are correct in saying that the term "Nazareth" came from "Nazarene". Plus there's the oft quoted passage in reference to Paul:

For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. Acts 24:5 (UKJV)

Background Information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth

Rene Salm has done extensive research on the Nazareth site:
http://www.nazarethmyth.info/
http://atheists.org/images/wiki/imag...article_ed.pdf

Alternate sites which dates Nazareth to early first Century:
http://dqhall59.com/roman_era_nazareth.htm
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/nazex.html

More information:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html

The open journal 'Atiqot from the Israel Antiquities Authority has an interesting article by Covello-Paran on a site in the Nazarethan hills (which also shows that there was virtually no human occupation at this site in the "year dot"):
http://www.atiqot.org.il/search.aspx?q=article&id=129

SSRN Journal article on the bath house with radiocarbon dating (for those who believe it possible) of the site samples at between 14th and 15 Century CE:
'The Ancient Bath House of Nazareth: What We Know of its History and the Implications on Our Understanding of the History of Nazareth' by Jacob J. Walker (2008).
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1641177

Reed, Jonathon (2000). 'Archaeology and the Galilean Jesus: A re-examination of the evidence.'

At Nazareth, tombs and topography limit the area covered during the Early Roman Period to no more than 4 hectares' (Reed 2000, p. 82).

Roman and Byzantine Period tombs to the west and east of the Church of the Annunciation delimit the size and suggest a population of less than 400 people (Reed 2000, p. 131).

Please note that this figure of 400 people is dating the size of the population over the Early Roman and Byzantine periods (50 BCE - 1100 CE) which I don't contend. Remember that the earlier dating (ie 50 BCE) would be contentious at any other site and that with the archaeological evidence there would be little argument as to it being placed around the time of the Jewish revolt (66 - 70 CE). It's just because of dogma and tradition that the site has traditionally been dated so early.

Here's something the apologists jumped on but most eventually had to pull back from when they figured out that 'fragments of pottery vessels from the Early Roman period (the first and second centuries CE)' does not equate to the "year dot":
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Ea...1-Dec-2009.htm

This site on the Nazarenes/Essenes may be of interest:
http://www.thenazareneway.com/nazarene_or_nazareth.htm

As a bit of interest on 12th March 2012 the Megiddo dig group co-led by Professor Finkelstein
'discovered a collection of gold, silver and bronze jewelry, wrapped in fabric, hidden in a vessel at Tel Megiddo.':
https://sites.google.com/site/megidd...n/area_h_hoard

Lastly there's this article by Richard L. Atkins (1984) 'Extravagant Claims in Bible Archaeology':
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1984/JASA9-84Atkins.html

Hope these are helpful to you. I've got more but these cover the arguments pro and con in relation to Nazareth fairly comprehensively. In the end I find the evidence indicates that it wasn't occupied at the year dot. Others might view it differently. That's all part of the joy of critical thinking. ; )
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

I'm very tired and nothing gives me a laugh like Jesus, Mo and the Bar Maid @ their best:

[panopticon]

Posted by observer (here)
No one commenting in this thread is denying the existance of God.

Um, er... Hello...
I don't believe in an anthropomorphic male personified deity...
Guess I'm the odd one out... Again... ; )
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by andrei (here)
I hate to tell you, but hell is just another invention of your beloved Vatican.

I am a beliver just like you, however, do you really think God put us here so that we can burn in hell ?

Those are not Jesus`s word in the Scripture, those are written by men just like you and me, MANY years after He died.

The only place where you can find truth is in your heart, stop looking at what others say or write for answers.

Many of my friends are muslim, protestants, catholics, and a whole lot of atheists, and i love all of them the same, they are all my brothers and sisters, but i will never go around telling anyone that they will burn in some imaginary hell for not beliving in "MY God", or contesting "My Holy Book".

don't you see it's just your opinion

based on emo and logic that there is no hell


do you know what testimonies are ?

there are plenty of testimonies from people

who almost died and got a glimpse of hell

and came back to tell about it


so who are you to say these testimonies about hell are lies ?


besides it is not to scare but to warn

hey hell is real

[RedeZra]

is it not perhaps you

and not Scripture testimonies and me

who have misconstrued God


why would God love you no matter what you do ?


this is just childish emotions

please grow up

and get real with God


because God is very real and very strict


when He did not spare his angels

who fell to sin

what makes you think He will spare you ?

[kingmonkey]

Is this thread still going? Wow

[RedeZra]

Jesus was born in a barn in Bethlehem (House of Bread) and brought up in insignificant Nazareth (Branch )


Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." - John 1:45-46



the first non-Christian reference to Nazareth is an inscription on a marble fragment from a synagogue found in Caesarea Maritima in 1962

the inscription dates to c. 300 AD and chronicles the assignment of priests that took place at some time after the Bar Kokhba revolt 132-35 AD


Eusebius records around 331 AD that from the name Nazareth Christ was called a Nazoraean and that in earlier centuries Christians were once called Nazarenes

[andrei]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

don't you see it's just your opinion

based on emo and logic that there is no hell


do you know what testimonies are ?

there are plenty of testimonies from people

who almost died and got a glimpse of hell

and came back to tell about it


so who are you to say these testimonies about hell are lies ?


besides it is not to scare but to warn

hey hell is real

let me guess, you know this because ... some people told you and you belived it ?
But hey, judging by how the God of the Old Testament was (the whole "Love me or i will kill you" attitude) anything is possible. This comes in direct contrast with the teachings of Jesus who put love for your fellow man and forgiveness above everything. If you want to live in fear of a being you will never be able to understand who demands unconditional obedience (remember, you`ll burn in hell if you dont bow down like a good slave), then be my guest, but know that the being you`re in such a hurry to give you faith and your soul to is not God, but something completly different.
The Bible might have had a divine message in the start, but the corrupt hands of men change a lot of things given enough time. I think the only relatively accurate writings are the ones that we still have originals of, like the ones discovered at Nag Hammadi and in many other places, and even those can be questioned up to a point.

[Beren]

Posted by kingmonkey (here)
Is this thread still going? Wow

Yes and still we are going in circles.
We debate and debate but hardly ever anyone is reading what is written there in the scriptures.
Religions are summoned, Roman councils and historical suggestions and opinions and theories about who said what.
We debate did he or didn`t he existed, was he or wasn`t he, Geography and History and Astronomy and rest...Common denominator is that WE want to DEBATE .

Not to realize the whole picture from above view.



Still a few pay attention what is actually written there in the scriptures.

Pick any version you can buy on the street and read it as a novel -religion bias free.
Read it for it says without anyone`s additions in form of religious dogma and teachings or opinions...

I am sure you will find pearls of wisdom.

Even if we find 100% proof of Roman councils putting together this or that version of Bible ,the very version they put seems like that is condemning their every deed through out history.

Vatican and all the churches had broken every law there is in Bible. They have blood on their hands. They didn`t listen to supposed "their " version of Jesus and Bible.

I ask if "their" version is 100% against their acts ,then what must "true" version say?
This very argument is pulled in vain for it`s unnecessary totally.

Not a single religion lives according to Bible.

Yet people accuse Bible because of religions ,namely Vatican and its spawns.
Bible stands for itself ,it just needs to be read bias free and in mind of current minds sets of people who wrote it.




It`s like truth is hidden in the open but people cannot accept it .
Why?

Their choice and internal system of belief even when they say that they don`t believe it.
And even that is OK...

All according to one`s choices...

For any argument here against Bible there can be found equally powerful argument pro Bible.
But even this doesn`t lead us nowhere.

Not every one who calls Lord`s name will be heard.

Only ones who do the will of the Father-Creator.

What is Father`s will?

To Love God (Creator for you are its child and therefore God in becoming- loving yourself ultimately) .
To Love your neighbor as yourself.


If one doesn`t do one of these two ,even that is OK, though life becomes really difficult.

Imagine life without Love...

We see it now on Earth ,we live partially hell on Earth by our choice.
Kingdom of heaven awaits us to see and hear it. To find it firstly inside us as it resides within as God`s spark. When we connect with God`s spark ,that become the key for ultimate reality and its doorways .

Yes, we still talk about Bible for we feel that there lives God`s power in it despite man`s attempts to add or take away out of Bible.

Still we behave as children do, who`s right and who`s wrong and while we continue to pursue this path , God is watching us with Love and nurturing as by every second by air we breathe and food we eat.

If God decided to cancel our life support we would vanish right away.
But God is Love and awaits its children to awake.

When we do we would thank heavens above and realize that we knew it all along just pretend i that we didn`t.

Greatest skeptic will be brought into the presence of Eternity of Creator just to be proven that the very skeptic is the son of God despite his disbelief.

That is the Love of God- God is Love.