The Bible

[RedeZra]

Posted by observer (here)
Jesus was most assuredly an Essene. In their time, the Essenes were also referred to as Nazarenes. That's because Nazareth was predominantly an Essene community, as was Qumran, the home of John the Baptist - another Essene. This is all evidence easily found in the archeological record.

the Roman writer Pliny the Elder (died c. 79 CE) was the first to mention the Essenes in his Natural History

where he relates in a few lines that the Essenes lives in Ein Gedi (which is close to Qumran and Masada west of the Dead Sea) do not marry possess no money and had existed for thousands of generations


Philo the Jew (20 BCE – 50 CE) places the Essenes in the whole land of Israel

and speaks of "more than four thousand" Essaioi living in "Palestine and Syria"


Josephus (37 – c. 100) lists the Essenoi as one of the three sects of Jewish philosophy alongside the Pharisees and the Sadducees

he writes the Essenes had settled "not in one city" but "in large numbers in every town"


everybody describes the Essenes as pious people and true observers of the Torah

and since Pliny the Elder places them close to Qumran

it is possible that the Essenes were connected to the Dead Sea Scrolls found there



Epiphanius of Salamis (inter 310–320 – 403) was bishop of Salamis at the end of the 4th century and is considered a saint and a Church Father by both the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches

he seems to make a distinction between two main groups within the Essenes:

"Of those that came before his [Elxai, an Ossaean prophet] time and during it, the Ossaeans and the Nazarean."

The Nazarean – they were Jews by nationality – originally from Gileaditis, Bashanitis and the Transjordan… They acknowledged Moses and believed that he had received laws – not this law, however, but some other. And so, they were Jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that these Books are fictions, and that none of these customs were instituted by the fathers. This was the difference between the Nazarean and the others…

After this Nazarean sect in turn comes another closely connected with them, called the Ossaeans. These are Jews like the former… originally came from Nabataea, Ituraea, Moabitis and Arielis, the lands beyond the basin of what sacred scripture called the Salt Sea… Though it is different from the other six of these seven sects, it causes schism only by forbidding the books of Moses like the Nazarean.

so in conclusion Jesus was Not an Essene but a lone gun from God

and He was from Nazareth and Not the Jewish sect Nazarean which was perhaps a sect within the Essenes



around 331 Eusebius records that in earlier centuries Christians were once called Nazarenes as Jesus was from Nazareth

Tertullian (Against Marcion 4:8) records that "for this reason the Jews call us 'Nazarenes'.

in the New Testament Christians are called "Christians" three times by Romans, and "Nazarenes" once by Tertullus, a Jewish lawyer.

the Rabbinic and modern Hebrew name for Christians, notzrim, is also thought to derive from Nazareth, and be connected with Tertullus' charge against Paul of being a member of the sect of the Nazarenes, Nazoraioi, "men of Nazareth" in Acts.

[RedeZra]

Posted by andrei (here)
But hey, judging by how the God of the Old Testament was (the whole "Love me or i will kill you" attitude) anything is possible. This comes in direct contrast with the teachings of Jesus who put love for your fellow man and forgiveness above everything.

sin will drag us to hell

so don't sin


Jesus has mercy and forgiveness for sins

which He freely gives to those who repent


see even sinners can make it to Heaven

no need to go to hell

[RedeZra]

it is almost impossible to believe the Bible

because we are brought up by the establishment


Scripture sounds ridiculous to the educated

and since it's not possible to reconcile these two teachings

we must choose one or none

[andrei]

I am going to stop here, because it is pointless to argue with one who lets his own faith blind him. I wish one day you will open your eyes, and wish you all the best, I am done with this thread.

[RedeZra]

Posted by andrei (here)
I am going to stop here, because it is pointless to argue with one who lets his own faith blind him. I wish one day you will open your eyes, and wish you all the best, I am done with this thread.

tnx and fine

another one bites the dust ; )

[Seikou-Kishi]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by andrei (here)
I am going to stop here, because it is pointless to argue with one who lets his own faith blind him. I wish one day you will open your eyes, and wish you all the best, I am done with this thread.

tnx and fine

another one bites the dust ; )

Arguing somebody into submission is not a vindication of your argument, just your persistence. Nobody has bitten dust, they've just given up on reasoning with you.

[andrei]

Yeah, I guess there is no point in arguing with a bible troll, someone who simply refuses to see outside their small little world where everything is black or white, heaven or hell. Some might call people like you fanatics, people who simply refuse to see what is right in front of their eyes and blindly cling to the same old crap that brought so much ruin and suffering to the world. Was the inquisition the will of the same god you pray to? Did He look down and smiled when armies where slaughtering eachother in crusades and other wars, all fighting in HIS name ?
All those people had the same mentality as yours and they suffered from the same blindness, all the time thinking they`re doing the right thing.

[RedeZra]

Posted by observer (here)

The problem lies with the fact that my point is: The Gnostic Christians, i.e. the Essenes, and later in history, the Cathar, believed the god of the Old Testament was a fraud.

This exclusive divinity of Jesus was NOT what the Original Christian community believed, and it was because of this belief that the Roman Empire exterminated them.

Jesus called God of Israel for Father

so if the God of the Old Testament is a fraud then so is Jesus


you can't have one without the other

no cherry pickin here



Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225 AD) was a prolific early Christian author from Carthage in the Roman province of Africa

He is the first Christian author to produce an extensive corpus of Latin Christian literature.

He also was a notable early Christian apologist and a polemicist against heresy.

Tertullian has been called "the father of Latin Christianity" and "the founder of Western theology."

He is perhaps most famous for being the oldest extant Latin writer to use the term Trinity (Latin trinitas), and giving the oldest extant formal exposition of a Trinitarian theology.

Other Latin formulations that first appear in his work are "three Persons, one Substance" as the Latin "tres Personae, una Substantia"


so since the beginning of the 3rd century the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."



about a century later in 325 the First Council of Nicaea established the doctrine of the Trinity as orthodoxy and adopted the Nicene Creed

which described Christ as "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father"




And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

"Go therefore [fn] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, [even] to the end of the age." - Matthew 28:18-20



And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." - Luke 3:22



But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, - Acts 7:55



The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit [be] with you all. Amen. - 2Cr 13:14

[RedeZra]

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by andrei (here)
I am going to stop here, because it is pointless to argue with one who lets his own faith blind him. I wish one day you will open your eyes, and wish you all the best, I am done with this thread.

tnx and fine

another one bites the dust ; )

Arguing somebody into submission is not a vindication of your argument, just your persistence. Nobody has bitten dust, they've just given up on reasoning with you.

i think it is because they are afraid i will convert them with their own instrument or reason ; )

[RedeZra]

Posted by andrei (here)
Yeah, I guess there is no point in arguing with a bible troll, someone who simply refuses to see outside their small little world where everything is black or white, heaven or hell. Some might call people like you fanatics, people who simply refuse to see what is right in front of their eyes and blindly cling to the same old crap that brought so much ruin and suffering to the world. Was the inquisition the will of the same god you pray to? Did He look down and smiled when armies where slaughtering eachother in crusades and other wars, all fighting in HIS name ?
All those people had the same mentality as yours and they suffered from the same blindness, all the time thinking they`re doing the right thing.

when sound reasons fail we can always retort to silly remarks

what is it i refuse to see right in front of my eyes by the way ?


that early humanity was steeped in human sacrificin rituals fertility rites and warmongerin taught to them by their gods

is that what i refuse to see ?

[gripreaper]

Thanks for keeping the truth alive about the ancient Gnostic's from Atlantis and the Essenes and the Nag Hamadhi scrolls, observer and Unified Serenity.

Although it is acceptable here in this thread for the god of the bible to starve, torture, impale and hang in the hot sun the dead, cause his children to eat the flesh of their dead children and swallow whole tribes into the earth as "punishment" for disobedience, and to use pagan blood sacrifices as atonement, and still use the endearment of unconditional love in the same sentence, those who are awakening and studying how this awful belief structure and it's resultant paradigm got so imbedded into the human psyche and her very soul, maybe we should start another thread where the discussion can be furthered.

We know that the bible is a plagiarized, altered and fictionalized rendition of the true history of this planet and the true enlightenment of souls. These inhuman elite have spent thousands of years eliminating anyone who tried to keep the truth alive, and have been quite successful. It is through fear that they have succeeded, and it is fear mongering which they continue to sell in their texts. This thread is testimony to how imbedded the lie is and how thousands of years of indoctrination has seeped into the very DNA of mankind.

Observer, your insights are great. You too United Serenity. Have either of you heard of John Lamb Lash?

[panopticon]

G'day RedeZra,

Thanks for the interesting posts and references to some pagan scholars and early christian tradition founders.

Posted by RedeZra (here)
according to the Synoptic Gospels a period of darkness occurred during Jesus crucifixion which took place on the first day of Passover

Phlegon of Tralles was a Greek writer during the reign of Augustus Caesar or emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD)
his chief work was the Olympiads an historical compendium in sixteen books from the 1st down to the 229th Olympiad (776 BC to AD 137)
now largely lost to history but several ancient historians have preserved some of his writings in their work
and most interestingly these historians mention a strange event which Phlegon recorded took place during the 4th year of the 202 Olympiad [32-33 AD]

Eusebius of Caesarea (264 – 340) in his Chronicle quotes Phlegon
"a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea"
Thallus was an early historian who wrote a three-volume history of the Mediterranean world in Koine Greek
mostly lost but some preserved by Sextus Julius Africanus in his History of the World
the 9th-century Christian chronologer George Syncellus cites Sextus Julius Africanus as writing in reference to the darkness mentioned in the synoptic gospels as occurring at the death of Jesus:
Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the Sun in the third book of his Histories.

Africanus then goes on to point out that an eclipse cannot occur at Passover when the moon is full and therefore diametrically opposite the Sun
the Apostle Peter hints to a blood moon connected with the Crucifixion
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. - Acts 2:20

For a good review of this argument please see Thallus: An Analysis by Richard Carrier.
Phlegon collected ghost, paranormal/supernatural stories. The 'Phlegon of Tralles’ Book of Marvels' (reviewed here) is an example of how stories were collected, just as they are now by those so inclined. The oft quoted Phlegon passage, as far as I am aware, has dubious origins (similar to the Josephus 'Testimonium Flavianum') and would love to see an original version of the complete text. ; )
Thallus was writing over a hundred years after the event and, even if it is an accurate quote of his work (which I doubt), as such is referring to somebody elses recall/written record. Why no mention by Josephus or Suetonius of this event?
Eusebius was 300 years later and Julius Africanus dates from the same fourth century period...

Posted by RedeZra (here)
don't you see it's just your opinion
based on emo and logic that there is no hell

RedeZra the same could be said regards your position. For example..

don't you see it's just your opinion
based on emo, dogma and faith that there is a hell.

Meanwhile something was happening in the town of Bethlehem...

Posted by RedeZra (here)
Jesus was born in a barn in Bethlehem (House of Bread) and brought up in insignificant Nazareth (Branch )
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." - John 1:45-46
the first non-Christian reference to Nazareth is an inscription on a marble fragment from a synagogue found in Caesarea Maritima in 1962
the inscription dates to c. 300 AD and chronicles the assignment of priests that took place at some time after the Bar Kokhba revolt 132-35 AD
Eusebius records around 331 AD that from the name Nazareth Christ was called a Nazoraean and that in earlier centuries Christians were once called Nazarenes

Yep, that's the tradition as I understand it. In relation to the above, you've presented evidence for Nazareth existing in the late first, early second century CE, I agree and have never contested that. Eusebius is thought to have been instrumental in the Testimonium Flavianum modifications and as a Bishop he's kind of got a point to prove now doesn't he. Also, I think that something written centuries after the event might have been based on tradition...

That's the problem though isn't it. Those who were interested in what was going on had personal biases and presented (in some cases possibly falsified) evidence in such a way as to promote their position. Documents were destroyed that were heretical (look at the Gnostic teachings for example) and those that have survived are in many cases only fragments. The old saying "history is written by the victors" should always be remembered when looking at anything. Personally I look at the "who, what, where. when, why and how" questions while evaluating information presented by any one. This is no less important when looking into Western history as described by the "victors".

Just so everyone knows...
I don't view this thread as an argument, I view it as a discussion and I post accordingly.
Just as I have said to the Fundamentalist Christians who participate in this thread I say the same to the Anti-Christian mob who come and go on this thread with monotonous regularity...
"I will participate in conversation not conversion".
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by gripreaper (here)
Thanks for keeping the truth alive about the ancient Gnostic's from Atlantis and the Essenes and the Nag Hamadhi scrolls, observer and Unified Serenity.

God annihilated Atlantis

or perhaps these long lost civilisations got MAD

before God buried them under mud and water



Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,

that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they [were] beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

There were giants [Nephilim] on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore [children] to them. Those [were] the mighty men who [were] of old, men of renown.

Then the LORD [fn] saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. - Genesis 6:1-8



so the sons of God or spirits

produced giant demigods

with daughters of men or humans

mighty men of renown the gods of old

Nephilim


huge hybrids born in a spirit of sin and disobedience

rebels and reprobates devils and demons


imbued with spiritual knowlegde but incapable to use it for good

[RedeZra]

Posted by panopticon (here)
G'day RedeZra,

For a good review of this argument please see Thallus: An Analysis by Richard Carrier.
Phlegon collected ghost, paranormal/supernatural stories. The 'Phlegon of Tralles’ Book of Marvels' (reviewed here) is an example of how stories were collected, just as they are now by those so inclined. The oft quoted Phlegon passage, as far as I am aware, has dubious origins..

hi Pan


perhaps Phlegon of Tralles did witness this event in 33 AD

since the Suda (Byzantine encyclopedia) says

"Phlegon of Tralles, freedman of Augustus Caesar, but some say of Hadrian: historian. He wrote Olympiads in 16 books. Up to the 229th Olympiad they contain what was done everywhere. And these in 8 books: Description of Sicily; On long-lived and marvelous persons, On the feasts of the Romans 3 books, On the places in Rome and by what names they are called, Epitome of Olympic victors in 2 books, and other things.

"Of this Phlegon, as Philostorgius says, to relate fully in detail what befell with the Jews, while Phlegon and Dio mentioned [these events] briefly and made them an appendix to their own narrative. Since this man does not exhibit at all prudently those who would lead to piety and other virtues, as those others do not either. Josephus, on the contrary, is like one who fears and takes care not to offend the [sc.pagan] Greeks."

because Phlegon of Tralles wrote the history from the 1st down to the 229th Olympiad (776 BC to AD 137)

he must have lived to be over 100 years old

if he witnessed the day turnin to night in 33 AD


well he wrote a book about On Long-lived Persons

a list of Italians who had passed the age of 100 taken from the Roman censuses


so it is possible that Phlegon of Tralles saw the day turn into night as a boy in 33 AD

and later incorperated this in his works on the Olympiads


Josephus was born in about 37 AD so i don't know where he was during this event ; )

[kreagle]

Posted by observer (here)

Posted by kreagle (here)
[....snip]

Thank you for your response, kreagle.

You have gone to much effort to extract passages from the Bible to support your point. Unfortunately, this technique is more of what I've referred to as 'circular logic' earlier in this debate with RedaZar. You can't use the words of the Bible to prove the accuracy of Biblical Text. Thank you for your effort, however.

The problem lies with the fact that my point is: The Gnostic Christians, i.e. the Essenes, and later in history, the Cathar, believed the god of the Old Testament was a fraud. They believed in the "One True God", whom the Cathar later referred to as Amor, The God of Love. It was for this theology that agents of the Roman Empire such as St. Ignatius, and St. Iranians spent their entire lives declaring these Original Christians, heretics.

If this was the belief of the Original Christian community, than the understanding created by compiling and then skillfully editing the Old Testament and the New Testament into one book in such a way as to prove an exclusive divinity of Jesus is false, i.e. the creation of Trinity Christianity. This exclusive divinity of Jesus was NOT what the Original Christian community believed, and it was because of this belief that the Roman Empire exterminated them.

No one commenting in this thread is denying the existance of God. The question is, in which God do you believe? .... The God of the Original Christians, the Essenes, or the God of the Roman Empire?

You may gain better understanding of what I'm talking about if you listen to the Dr. Joseph Farrell interview:

First hour of a 2 hour interview with Dr. Joseph P. Farrell:

download mp3

Hello again,.......observer

(your quote: You can't use the words of the Bible to prove the accuracy of Biblical Text.)

By "these words of advice" that you and panopticon so graciously share with us, you and he continue to try to persuade us to abandon the only "source of unbridled Truth" that has never let me down,.....and that's the Word of God,....The Bible. In return you attempt to offer "alternative sources" that categorically deny anything and everything that is Scriptural in content. If you, or he, could experience for "five minutes" what I continue to experience every day of my life, since I was "born again" over 31 years ago, you would quickly abandon the "quest" you both appear to be on, and that's one to denounce and disprove the validity of God's Word.

In order to achieve and receive this "born again experience", the candidate must reach a point where they become sick and tired of the garbage that this world/mankind endeavors to "cram down your throat!" A change in "diet" is a must!

Ezekiel 2:8
King James Version (KJV)

8But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.


Psalm 34:8
King James Version (KJV)

8O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Yes, when I finally decided that I would no longer allow this world/mankind "cram their garbage of lies, deceits, self-sufficiency down my throat", I set about to change what I "digested" to incorporate the precious Word of God.

I continue to read too many posts from individuals who simply have yet to get a "good taste of who and what God really is and can be in their lives". Those who continue in this direction attempt to lure others to build upon the same foundation that they currently are building upon. I urge everyone to look up under your feet and take note to the structural integrity of the foundation you are building on.

Matthew 7:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I am all for searching out "intellectual reasoning/solutions, etc.",....that's one of the reasons I frequent the Avalon forums to expand my knowledge and understanding. However, when the information endeavors to "steer me away" from what I know is the complete Word of God,....the brakes come on,.....for you see I don't care for that type of "sandy soil". It's too unstable for me!

Behold,....He stands at the door and knocks......

Love and Peace,........kreagle

[cellardoor]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by gripreaper (here)
Thanks for keeping the truth alive about the ancient Gnostic's from Atlantis and the Essenes and the Nag Hamadhi scrolls, observer and Unified Serenity.

God annihilated Atlantis

or perhaps these long lost civilisations got MAD

before God buried them under mud and water



Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,

that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they [were] beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

There were giants [Nephilim] on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore [children] to them. Those [were] the mighty men who [were] of old, men of renown.

Then the LORD [fn] saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. - Genesis 6:1-8



so the sons of God or spirits

produced giant demigods

with daughters of men or humans

mighty men of renown the gods of old

Nephilim


huge hybrids born in a spirit of sin and disobedience

rebels and reprobates devils and demons


imbued with spiritual knowlegde but incapable to use it for good

I will give the Gnostic version for the sake of the dialectic red.

Lucifer the light barer of truth spoke to Eve in the garden, he taught her gnosticism, he taught her the true meaning of good and evil and embude Eve with the wisdom to become god and she saw it was good. Eve mated with Lucifer and begot a son Cain. Eve taught Adam the knowledge and he saw it was good. Eve mated with Adam and begot a son Able. Yahweh was displeased. Able became a Shepard, Cain became a farmer of the land. Both offered their fruits to Yahweh. Yahweh being the blood thirsty demiurge, rejected Cain's vegetation in favour of Able's animal sacrifice. Able rejoiced in his triumph to appease the creator. Able sought to give Yahweh the ultimate prise, the blood of Lucifer. Knowing good and evil Cain saw his inevitable fate. Able walked into the fields of Cain and went to kill Cain, but Cain struggled with Able and killed him. Cain knew he would no longer be allowed in the garden, so he left to the land of Nod baring the mark. The descendants of Cain flourished in the sciences, astronomy, mathematics and philosophy. They walked with the gods and built the grandest temples in homage to the true god of light. Yahweh looked upon the children of Cain with jealousy. He saw how like gods they had become, how they could shape the earth like him and he was furious. The children of Cain set out to destroy Yahweh. Yahweh unleashed his fury upon the children of Cain and exterminated there lands through flood.

Sounds a bit more plausible to me anyway.

This is the ultimate heresy Red. Do you think I'm going to hell?

[Beren]

I will give the Gnostic version for the sake of the dialectic red.

Lucifer the light barer of truth spoke to Eve in the garden, he taught her gnosticism, he taught her the true meaning of good and evil and embude Eve with the wisdom to become god and she saw it was good. Eve mated with Lucifer and begot a son Cain. Eve taught Adam the knowledge and he saw it was good. Eve mated with Adam and begot a son Able. Yahweh was displeased. Able became a Shepard, Cain became a farmer of the land. Both offered their fruits to Yahweh. Yahweh being the blood thirsty demiurge, rejected Cain's vegetation in favour of Able's animal sacrifice. Able rejoiced in his triumph to appease the creator. Able sought to give Yahweh the ultimate prise, the blood of Lucifer. Knowing good and evil Cain saw his inevitable fate. Able walked into the fields of Cain and went to kill Cain, but Cain struggled with Able and killed him. Cain knew he would no longer be allowed in the garden, so he left to the land of Nod baring the mark. The descendants of Cain flourished in the sciences, astronomy, mathematics and philosophy. They walked with the gods and built the grandest temples in homage to the true god of light. Yahweh looked upon the children of Cain with jealousy. He saw how like gods they had become, how they could shape the earth like him and he was furious. The children of Cain set out to destroy Yahweh. Yahweh unleashed his fury upon the children of Cain and exterminated there lands through flood.

Sounds a bit more plausible to me anyway.

This is the ultimate heresy Red. Do you think I'm going to hell?

This is the fall of Gnostic premise. Twisting roles, light for darkness.
Anyways why didn't anyone asked themselves or Eve herself or Adam himself of the question;

why would I need to become a god when I am already a God?
Son or daughter of Creator and inheritor of all.
Why would I need to be taught about good and evil when I am in oneness in position of unity not duality?

Answer is self evident.

But entity that some call Lucifer or Satan or Serpent (never mind the name - entity is spirit), had portrayed the future choice of Eve and Adam as good looking one. Deliberately hiding the fact that they are already Gods with big G.
Creator told Adam and Eve what will happen if they choose duality.
It was not a threat or anger as some believe it.

Just a observation of what will happen because of certain choices.
Choices were executed and so were effects of the same.

Does that make God a sadist and blood thirsty as you claim it?

According to twisted perspective of Gnosticism (which I personally find interesting and filled with a lot of pearls of wisdom but not spared of human filters of heavenly knowledge ,as well as ones whom reasoned of what Bible tell us and what not filled with twisted perception of their own' not God's) we have to be spared of law of cause and effect.

If we are to be spared of such law - we would never develop in any level and will bring chaos in existence.

In effect all around we can see that human filters are the trouble makers , not scriptures of all nations such as Bible ,Gnostic works, Easter philosophy ,Mayan works and such.
It's the low or as some call it -fallen, conscience that doesn't allow us to grasp what is written or meant in various scriptures and here in this thread -Bible.

Say for example Moses comes and says :" God said that we will go there and exterminate this tribe , man , woman and child, and all that breathes and we will burn their habitat."
Who said that actually?

Moses or Creator?

Moses said it was God who told him but we don't have direct proof that God ordered him except his words that God told him which they (Israel nation) then didn't hear and we today didn't hear.

It was Moses human fallen mind that interpret him to do various things.

I don't need to defend God here because God is quite capable of everything. And the reasons why some child sacrificing nations were eradicated was that they caused their eradication.
But we today say how cruel!
Israel's God was tyrant and blood thirsty...

Again even when writing this the human filter is still on. This is what I am trying to state that human condition allows a lot of things to happen that later we don't understand.

Because of this chaos that we live in we are causing a lot of havoc in all dimensions and God is continually sending us wise being s to soothe us and taught us to calm down and grow up.
Otherwise we would destroy the very universe itself.

Such is the power we have for we are Creators' children with unimaginable power which destroys when used in fallen conscience.

We have to stop judging the past for we don't live in it now.
What happened - happened.
We need to understand all angles of what and when and where .Not to judge the past with a few bits and pieces of information.
I am looking forward to a day when all will be known with crystal clear model of view from all angles and without Bias.


Until then let's grow up a bit and leave judging attitudes behind lest we be judged according to the judgements we imposed on others.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

This is the ultimate heresy Red. Do you think I'm going to hell?

I 'll take the liberty of the answer.
Only if you want to my friend ... though various self made hells are not so pleasant places...

[cellardoor]

why would I need to become a god when I am already a God?
Son or daughter of Creator and inheritor of all.
Why would I need to be taught about good and evil when I am in oneness in position of unity not duality?

The god of the Gnostics is "Becoming". There is no omnipotent "architect" but the sum of a dialectical struggle, teleologically striving to "Know" itself as the omega. The Omega is what the Gnosics regard as "God" it is the end of evolution of the universe, from the one to the many back to the one, so on and so forth. The Gnostics thought that every atom was alive and possessed the will to power. Every atom has mind, a mind/spirit. The sum total of the dimensionless mind exists parallel to the dimensional matter dancing in a feed back loop of existence. The human mind would be the sum dimensionless minds fullest expression within dimentional matter the "many" at this stage of evolution. Gnosis would involve fully engaging the dimensionless sum total mind of the universe, the akashic records, and expressing the sum total with in the dimensional domain thus becoming God like.

Good and evil is nothing but the struggle of the master/slave dialectic. In genesis Lucifer taught Eve that she was ultimately a slave to Yahweh. He taught Eve that Yahweh was Evil for wanting power over her and that no being need be subordinate to another. All are equal. this is the struggle we have been plagued with for aeons. According to Yahweh Good is following his word and Evil is doing the opposite. He is the ultimate slave master that is why the Gnostics see him as the prince of darkness because they have a much more sophisticated concept of Evil.

Moses BTW spoke to yahweh via the arch of the covenant. This is how he summoned the war God Yahweh, to defeat the Egyptian usurpers. Which ultimately was nothing other than Moses's deranged psyche manifest before him. Every thing in the bible is just manifestations of psyche they are bias views of history. Genesis is a myth that the Gnostics provided the antithesis to. They saw it's power to subvert people, ignorance would reign supreme unless they provided a counter myth that promoted knowing thyself over giving thyself. Alas people find it easier to give themselves to god than to know themselves as god. Ignorance/darkness/fear are the tools of the deiruge/yahweh/satan and they are very affective through the Abrahamic religions non more than Christianity.

[panopticon]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
hi Pan
perhaps Phlegon of Tralles did witness this event in 33 AD
since the Suda (Byzantine encyclopedia) says

"Phlegon of Tralles, freedman of Augustus Caesar, but some say of Hadrian: historian. He wrote Olympiads in 16 books. Up to the 229th Olympiad they contain what was done everywhere. And these in 8 books: Description of Sicily; On long-lived and marvelous persons, On the feasts of the Romans 3 books, On the places in Rome and by what names they are called, Epitome of Olympic victors in 2 books, and other things.

"Of this Phlegon, as Philostorgius says, to relate fully in detail what befell with the Jews, while Phlegon and Dio mentioned [these events] briefly and made them an appendix to their own narrative. Since this man does not exhibit at all prudently those who would lead to piety and other virtues, as those others do not either. Josephus, on the contrary, is like one who fears and takes care not to offend the [sc.pagan] Greeks."

because Phlegon of Tralles wrote the history from the 1st down to the 229th Olympiad (776 BC to AD 137)
he must have lived to be over 100 years old
if he witnessed the day turnin to night in 33 AD
well he wrote a book about On Long-lived Persons
a list of Italians who had passed the age of 100 taken from the Roman censuses
so it is possible that Phlegon of Tralles saw the day turn into night as a boy in 33 AD
and later incorperated this in his works on the Olympiads
Josephus was born in about 37 AD so i don't know where he was during this event ; )

G'day RedeZra,

Periodically I like to look at things and have a think.
There's no particular reason why I chose this one, just followed a thinking process and this is where I ended...

In Augustus' Statute of 4 CE, 'lex Aelia Sentia', he ruled that a slave had to be 30 Years old to be freed.
Augustus reigned until 14 CE.
Minimum age of Phlegon in 14 CE (the final year of Augustus' rule) to be freed under Augustus' rule is 30 years old (meaning Phlegon was born before 16 BCE).
At the time of the writing of the Olympiad's History it was at earliest 137 CE (if he is the only one who wrote the text that is)...
This would mean Phlegon would be at the very least 153 years old when he died if he was a 'freedman of Augustus Caesar'...

Let's say he was born in 4 CE and was freed straight away (not likely but why not have a look anyway) that would mean that at the writing of the Olympiad he would be 133 years old.

From this I reckon Phlegon was around during Hadrian's reign (117 - 138 CE) as the alternatives are just silly. ; )

This relegates the report by Eusebius (from three centuries later) on Phlegon's alleged writings (still not convinced they even existed) to the "heresay" or "tradition" basket. I've got no problem with that, just it really isn't definitive proof. Same goes for the Thallus references.

In turn all this brings me back to the question of why such a major event would not have been recorded by either Josephus or Suetonius who wrote about everything and anything ad nauseum...

BTW excellent references! I had to go and check the Suda to see what was written and verify the quote (go here). I hadn't come across the Suda before so thanks. ; )
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

Posted by kreagle (here)
By "these words of advice" that you and panopticon so graciously share with us, you and he continue to try to persuade us to abandon the only "source of unbridled Truth" that has never let me down,.....and that's the Word of God,....The Bible. In return you attempt to offer "alternative sources" that categorically deny anything and everything that is Scriptural in content. If you, or he, could experience for "five minutes" what I continue to experience every day of my life, since I was "born again" over 31 years ago, you would quickly abandon the "quest" you both appear to be on, and that's one to denounce and disprove the validity of God's Word.

G'day Kreagle,

First, thanks for your comment. I have never deliberately tried 'to persuade [you] to abandon the only "source of unbridled Truth" that has never let [you] down'. I have done the opposite on a number of occasions by suggesting those who found my posts problematic to not read them in future.

I would however remind you that if we didn't challenge dogma and tradition we would still be captivated by the holes in the firmament, we would still think that the Sun moves around the Earth (Galileo was a champion) and our modern society would not exist. Whether that would be a bad thing or not is also up for debate...

I don't know what to do about how uncomfortable my posts make you feel. They obviously do as you comment about it occasionally and I don't want to cause you distress. You may think that is me being sarcastic but it isn't. I've known many people who through their faith (not just Christianity by the way) have found a peace and strength that has allowed them to overcome "problems" (eg. alcohol, drugs, gambling). While I do not share your beliefs, and I've said this to you before, I do endeavour to respect them. I would never want to cause problems for you, yet I do wish to participate in an interesting discussion with people who know the texts, archaeology, culture and history of the period and places in question. It isn't often that an opportunity such as this comes along and I really do enjoy the different perspectives that active participants in this thread have bought with them.

Maybe the best thing would be for you to add me to your ignore list because that way you wont see my posts. Paul describes how to do it here:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post177385

If you've got any other suggestions as to how we can rectify this problem, that would be agreeable to both of us, I am happy to oblige. No, me buggaring off isn't one that is 'agreeable to both of us'. ; )
Kind Regards,
Panopticon