Your Strangest Experience?

[Neptun]

Sorry for my strange experience. I normally don't talk about it, because it is a bit humiliating.

I helped a woman that had experienced pedophilia as a kid. She got out of her victim mindset and turn the energy around, what she did successfully. One night her demon that had attached to her, raped me in my a... hard and violently.

I felt an energy that passed into my body and when it rapped me it felt real. I could feel its aggression and hate.

I sat up in the bed and laughed because it was bizarre. I got back to the paralyzed state and opened my eyes, what was difficult and I pushed it out of me and saw 2 black shadows coming out of my body. I had allot of energy after that.

Another time I woke up and saw a human looking demon standing over me and when I came out of the paralyzed state I felt an extreme hate and anger towards it what tipped me off. I never feel that. I send it divine love and it got out of me.

[Billy]

1957-59, repetative dream of meeting a collective of universal beings

1967, watched a UFO hover above me for half an hour

1985, An encounter with mother mary up a mountain.

!991-1996, Assisting Bosnian Muslims who were subjects of genocide.

1999, a meeting with a spiritual healer who put his hand inside my body. leaving no marks.

2002 - 2005, In India and encountered ancient manuscripts ( Naadi ) over 2000yrs old that had my name and lives (plural) written within.

2005, India again two weeks after Tsunami. An instruction written within the Naadi for me to carry out. To go to a place and plant a tree. This led me yet again with another encounter with mother mary and Tsunami victims where the Tsunami had hit worst in India.

And more.

Phew

Peace

EDITI share part of my experiences here
http://goldring.wetpaint.com/page/Mo...ary+~+by+Billy

[Avocadess]

One time I could "hear" someone about 3-4 feet from my bed from I could not see him. I could hear "him" breathing. He seemed very tall. It was like an invisible man.

I looked in the direction of his breathing and asked, "Who are you?" I got no answer.

I still wonder about that to this day...

[Neptun]

Posted by Avocadess (here)
One time I could "hear" someone about 3-4 feet from my bed from I could not see him. I could hear "him" breathing. He seemed very tall. It was like an invisible man.

I looked in the direction of his breathing and asked, "Who are you?" I got no answer.

I still wonder about that to this day...

Sounds like a demon. They are always so dramatic. They feed on fear and do stuff like that to make you afraid. They can't do much to you other than play pathetic games. Just laugh at them.

[RunningDeer]

My sense is that Avocadees has "Big Light", i.e., a soul with many experiences to draw upon. Therefore, it would be a better chance that the "Beings of Light" come for a hello visit. The breathing may have just been a "wake up call". I'd ask what was your sense of the encounter?

When I have multidimensional visitors, I ask each time if they are of the Light, otherwise I would tell them to leave, that they are not welcome. It's my standard practice. Even if my sense is that of Great Lighted Beings, I still double check by asking them to show me. And what I see is that their Love Light grows even larger, and my heart expands. Also, I feel peace and have inner knowing. And often some knowledge is left when I have asked a question.

Posted by Avocadess (here)
I still wonder about that to this day...

Posted by Neptun (here)

Posted by Avocadess (here)
One time I could "hear" someone about 3-4 feet from my bed from I could not see him. I could hear "him" breathing. He seemed very tall. It was like an invisible man.

I looked in the direction of his breathing and asked, "Who are you?" I got no answer.

I still wonder about that to this day...

Sounds like a demon. They are always so dramatic. They feed on fear and do stuff like that to make you afraid. They can't do much to you other than play pathetic games. Just laugh at them.

[Cartomancer]

Posted by WhiteCrowBlackDeer (here)
In my younger years, my family lived on 23 acres of forest land in New England, with steams and fields. So there was a lot of opportunities to talk with the elementals, trees and rocks.

There was one place thick with sumac trees and tall grasses where my siblings and I played hide and seek. We called it 'Fairy Land'. The fairies and elves helped me stealthy scoot away on my hands and knees by floating along. When I became aware of what was happening my stomach was filled with intense joy and giggles.

Never was there a need to question, kids just know. Kids just feel. What I’m reminded again, is that adults just need to get out of their own way. More heart, less worry.

That is really cool. It is interesting how much more open to things like this we are as children. As we age it seems we become cynical or somehow block out things like this. You have truly had some interesting and bizarre experiences that all sound positive! C'mon gang I know there are more strange tales out there. Post them! Our stuff is not as strange as Bob Dean or Duncan O'Finion but equally as interesting. Thanks

[RunningDeer]

Doesn't fit this thread.

[another bob]

In this life, it seems that "strange" experiences have been more the the rule than the exception. For example, here's a strange one for ya:

In the summer of 1969, Mike Magee and I embarked upon a fishing trip for steelhead -- the great ocean-going trout -- deep into the Trinity Alps of Northern California. This was to be a transformative trip for many reasons, but one incident particularly stands out in memory.

We had arrived at our chosen evening camp spot just as the sky was beginning to cloud up, and it appeared that some rain was imminent. We tried our luck at the river (the Trinity River) for our dinner, but had to settle on a back-up meal of canned Dinty Moore Beef Stew before it got too dark. We had built a small campfire just before the first rains began to softly fall around us, and as we gazed into the warming flames we both fell uncharacteristically quiet, and the hush seemed to gather power, a power that transcended the usual campfire reveries, and indeed it seemed as if we had somehow been lured by this "place" out of time and into a realm beyond our reckoning.

Directly above us, a full moon shone down brightly, as if through a portal in the dark and raining night skies. All around the perimeter of the campfire, the steady rain poured down, but within our small fire circle we were somehow kept dry. As the night progressed, the situation did not alter -- rain surrounded us, but not a drop came into the circle, though we were out in the open, unsheltered by any tree or rock ledge. Moreover, the blaze of the fire continued on, hour after hour, with no discernible change in intensity, although we added no wood besides what we had originally used to build the fire. It maintained itself without us adding any additional fuel, and the night deepened, yet we said not a word.

The silence of that night was so deep, deeper than any night I had ever encountered. Actually, it seemed as if time itself had literally stopped, and suddenly we were looking at each other in astonishment as the light of day began to dawn, and we realized that we had sat there without moving for over 9 hours, nor had the flame altered in any way, but now that the morning had arrived, the rain began washing over us, telling us it was time to pack up and move along.

In a kind of daze we gathered our gear into the car trunk of my 1960 Ford Falcon and set out back on the road -- both of us too confounded to say a word. After about 5 minutes on the road, we passed an incredible scene -- a house was burning out of control, and an Indian family was standing mutely off to the side, watching their home burn fiercely in the rain. It was such a stunning image that we just kept driving on for a mile or so in a numbed daze until we sort of snapped back to attention and turned the car around to go back and see if we could help.

We spent the next hour driving back and forth, unable to locate either the burning house, nor the spot where we thought we had camped. Neither "place" seemed to exist at all! Believe me, we covered and re-covered every inch of road, again and again, and yet were flabergasted that we could now not find any trace of the Indians, nor of the pull-off where we had spent the night.

At last, we gave up, and headed off to more strange & unusual adventures, following the steelhead as they themselves followed the spawning salmon up the creek and into the Mystery.

[Carmody]

A literal 'hundreds' of incidences. I mean, pick one.

It's the normal state of affairs and within the fundamental design characteristics of 'reality' itself.....if one decides to turn and face it fully.

It's all there, if one can psychologically deal with the shift in consciousness.

[Cartomancer]

Posted by another bob (here)
In this life, it seems that "strange" experiences have been more the the rule than the exception. For example, here's a strange one for ya:

In the summer of 1969, Mike Magee and I embarked upon a fishing trip for steelhead -- the great ocean-going trout -- deep into the Trinity Alps of Northern California. This was to be a transformative trip for many reasons, but one incident particularly stands out in memory.

We had arrived at our chosen evening camp spot just as the sky was beginning to cloud up, and it appeared that some rain was imminent. We tried our luck at the river (the Trinity River) for our dinner, but had to settle on a back-up meal of canned Dinty Moore Beef Stew before it got too dark. We had built a small campfire just before the first rains began to softly fall around us, and as we gazed into the warming flames we both fell uncharacteristically quiet, and the hush seemed to gather power, a power that transcended the usual campfire reveries, and indeed it seemed as if we had somehow been lured by this "place" out of time and into a realm beyond our reckoning.

Directly above us, a full moon shone down brightly, as if through a portal in the dark and raining night skies. All around the perimeter of the campfire, the steady rain poured down, but within our small fire circle we were somehow kept dry. As the night progressed, the situation did not alter -- rain surrounded us, but not a drop came into the circle, though we were out in the open, unsheltered by any tree or rock ledge. Moreover, the blaze of the fire continued on, hour after hour, with no discernible change in intensity, although we added no wood besides what we had originally used to build the fire. It maintained itself without us adding any additional fuel, and the night deepened, yet we said not a word.

The silence of that night was so deep, deeper than any night I had ever encountered. Actually, it seemed as if time itself had literally stopped, and suddenly we were looking at each other in astonishment as the light of day began to dawn, and we realized that we had sat there without moving for over 9 hours, nor had the flame altered in any way, but now that the morning had arrived, the rain began washing over us, telling us it was time to pack up and move along.

In a kind of daze we gathered our gear into the car trunk of my 1960 Ford Falcon and set out back on the road -- both of us too confounded to say a word. After about 5 minutes on the road, we passed an incredible scene -- a house was burning out of control, and an Indian family was standing mutely off to the side, watching their home burn fiercely in the rain. It was such a stunning image that we just kept driving on for a mile or so in a numbed daze until we sort of snapped back to attention and turned the car around to go back and see if we could help.

We spent the next hour driving back and forth, unable to locate either the burning house, nor the spot where we thought we had camped. Neither "place" seemed to exist at all! Believe me, we covered and re-covered every inch of road, again and again, and yet were flabergasted that we could now not find any trace of the Indians, nor of the pull-off where we had spent the night.

At last, we gave up, and headed off to more strange & unusual adventures, following the steelhead as they themselves followed the spawning salmon up the creek and into the Mystery.

Wow. You are a great writer. That was truly a strange experience. That part of the world does seem to have a strange vibe to it. I live near you in Chico. I am working on a chapter for my next book about Mt. Shasta and all the associated strangeness there. I have spoken to two people that had Bigfoot encounters in the Trinity. I always marvel at the names used in that region. The Sacramento River is in the Trinity etc.

Once on the east side of Shasta I found a alignment of Native American stacked stone features that pointed to the peak of Mt. Shasta and also seems to mark the equinoxes. As soon as the weather breaks I'm on my way up there to do some filming. Thanks.

[bekrah]

I've had a few strange occurrences, it's hard to decide which one is the weirdest. I'll just list some of the ones that stick out most in my mind.

First of all, I should be dead a few times over. The first time should have been when I took a dive-bomb off of a 2nd story balcony onto concrete @ 18months of age, I got two skull fractures, but no brain injury. I got attacked by a swarm of mud wasps when I was about 5, and didn't receive a single sting. I got spinal meningitis when I was 15, about a month after a student in my school died from it. I was in the hospital for a couple of days and was fine. There are more instances but I don't want to make this post too long. Suffice it to say my parents called me "Crash" for a very long time, I was pretty accident prone.

2010 was a strange year for me, because of the timing of certain events. My Aunt Cathy passed away on my birthday, then a few months later, on my wedding day, my grandfather passed away. For a long time I thought it was some kind of cruel universal joke. I've since found peace with it; now I look at the timing of these events as a way for me to remember them both, and the good times we shared.

I've had a lot of strange happenings in the realm of psi-related phenomenon as well. I've had a pen blow up in my hand when I was in a high-energy trance state. I've said things people were thinking before they got a chance to say it, and vice-versa MANY times. I've had a few prophetic dreams. I have also been able to move small objects using PK on occasion, with witnesses. I've noticed the PK stuff seems to work the best when I'm in a good mood/high energy, but it's hard to control, I guess it seems to work best when it's on a whim.

The other odd one that sticks out in my mind was seeing two UFO's. The first one was with my brother, we were walking country roads, being naughty teenagers, and pushing over construction signs. We got a couple miles down the road and saw this great big red glowing light in the sky. It was oval in shape, we both saw it and ran home promptly. What's even weirder is I saw the same light above my grandma's house on the other side of town a couple of weeks later, my mom and other brother were with me. The frustrating thing is I remember these events like they happened yesterday, and everyone who was with me doesn't though they saw them when they happened. I don't think I dreamed them, it feels way way to real, and much different from any dreams I had. However, I can't explain how I remember them and they don't.

[amym]

1. At age 5 I awoke to see an Angel standing by my bed. It was a female form that was light-filled.

2. In my early 20s I lived in an apartment in a 100+ year old house. I heard lots of footsteps and strange noises. One night I woke up and saw a man in a military uniform that appeared to be from the early 1900s.

3. I was at a friend's house one evening. We were sitting in the living room and heard footsteps descending from the second floor. Her dog heard them as well because he ran to the foot of the stairway and was looking up the stairs wagging his tail. The footsteps stopped. There was no one visible.

4. A few years ago my family and I were on vacation, and drove through a small town several miles from the highway. There was some kind of festival being held. It was if we had driven into the 1960s/early 1970s. All of the clothes people were wearing and all of the cars that were parked and being driven were from the 60s and 70s. The businesses that lined the street were all retro with not one current logo or sign. We felt very odd and drained after the event and agreed that something seemed "off" about the place.

[Avocadess]

With the "invisible man" I did not feel fear -- but I had gone through a lot of spiritual cleansing that month, including palpable experiences with the Holy Spirit. However I got zero sense whether the being was of darkness or of light. It was just very curious.

However, a week or two before that another very strange experience happened. It was also during this special time of spiritual cleansing. I was overall feeling MUCH love, but one night I was remembering my mother's husband (who, so it is told, is the person who kept my mother out of my life as a child). I used to say as a child, "If it were not for him I would think I was incapable of hate." That night I felt some of that hatred toward him again, although I was in my late twenties by this point. The moment I felt HATE I was attacked physically. It was like a giant demon glommed onto me and threw me off the bed.

However in that split second that I just described I thought/remembered, "Fear is not of God" and LET GO of any fear and immediately I FELT but did not see (my eyes were closed) an angel catch me before I hit the hard floor and return me to the bed.

It was then I realized: had I not HATED, I would not have been attacked at all. Wow. What a lesson that was...!!!

[humanalien]

As a young boy, maybe around 6 years old, i lived a few streets from a graveyard.
Every once in a while, i used to sneak off and go to the graveyard, to steal apples
from a tree that used to be there. Usually, i'd just climb the tree, grab some apples
and run off somewhere to eat them.

One last after-noon, nearing dusk, i got another chance to run off to get some more
apples, so i did. I climbed the tree, grabbed a few apples but instead of running off,
i decided to eat them there because, if i took the apples home, mom would have known
that i had run off without her permission.

I walked to the gated area that lead out into the street and sat down beside on off those
very old fashioned hand operated water pumps. This was what my town used back then
get water out of the ground, to water the flowers in the graveyard.

I sat down and began eating my apples, in a hurry, because i wanted to get back home
before mom noticed that i was gone. As i sat there eating, that old hand operated water
pump handle, began going up and down, all by itself. Water was really poring out of that
thing. I was familiar with those hand pumps and i knew that someone had to pull the handle
up and push it back down, to make it work and there was no one in sight. I knew there was
a ghost making that hand pump work and that scared the hell out of me. I ran for dear life,
once i realized there was a ghost in the graveyard. I never went back there alone again.

It's funny now because i currently live one house away from that graveyard.


As a teen, living with my dad, he used to wake me up in the mornings by grabbing one of
my big toes and shaking it. which made my whole foot shake.

My dad died a few years back and not so long ago, i was almost asleep, when i felt
someone grab my big toe and shake it. I woke up with a start but i realized that it was
dad, messing with me.

[Sidney]

I have had so many weird things happen I can't count them all, but one of the first high strangeness things happened a few years ago, I had recently come to realize my ability to telepathically communicate with ufos. I was at the point that I kind of knew I could do it,and i spent time outside at night, summoning with my thoughts, orb craft that would come and go at my liking. Usually 3 or 4 a night at least. But the skeptic in me kept thinking that it could just be coincidence and they were satellites flying over at the time of my "communications".

At the time, I worked outside at a plant retailer, and I was the only person around before closing. i kept seeing this star, that was bigger and brighter than a star and I had a hunch that it was more than just a star. So I started sending it messages. It came closer and closer, looked to be maybe 10 miles away, in the direction of where I resided at the time. When I left work at about 10 30 p.m. i drove down th e 2 lane highway that led to town where I lived. There was only myself and 1 other car on that road at the time. When i approached the intersection at my town, I looked up, and shocked in disbelief, there in the sky maybe guessing a thousand feed up, but probably more like 500 ft, there was a huge 2 story craft, with windows across the entire front, I could see lights inside and "people" standing in the windows looking at me.

I was so terrified, I drove to my house, pulled in the garage, put the door down went in locked all my doors cracked open a can of beer, called my best friend and told her what had happened (she did not believe me), ended up being a very short phone call. I had no one to tell, and I sat terrified all night until daylight.

I will never forget it.

Hindsight- I so wish I had not let my fear take over me like that. I had called upon them, and I really think they may have been trying to befriend me. (or not)lol
But about a year later, the same thing happened, a different craft (my husband was with me), and it did not get nearly as close, when I got frightened and decided to leave that location and go home.

Since then, I have truly wanted to make contact, (direct), but It has not happened I believe because my fear is keeping them at a distance, even though I can still "summons" them, from afar. They fly over and flash their lights in acknowledgement, but none have ever attempted to come so close again. i am sure this sounds unbelievable to some but I am telling the truth.

[conk]

I was 12 years old and floating on an inflated inner tube. I could not yet swim and I fell off the tube and sank to the bottom of the pond. I remember inhaling the water and becoming very, very calm. I thought that death isn't so bad and sort of connected to my deceased father who had drowned himself. My mind raced with millions of images from my life. I was resigned to death, but someone pulled me out at the last second and revived me. The calmness of it all is what I remember the most, no panic at all.

I was just divorced, but was still close to my former wife. one of my friends, a woman, from work wanted me to drive her to see her parents many states away. Upon arriving at her parent's house I noticed the immensely tacky, rediculous decor. It looked like a circus clown had decorated the place. We ate Thanksgiving dinner, a weird assortment of things I'd not had before. When I got back home my ex told me things only someone who was with me could have known. She had traveled out of body to visit me. She told me about the ugly red carpet in the house and the blue toilets. She knew we'd had possum and raccoon for dinner. She knew that I did not sleep in the same room or bed as my female friend, saying she was glad to see that I had slept on the very uncomfortable sofa. The sofa was plastic and hard as a rock. Very psychic woman, my ex.

While we were married she would leave work (late shift) and visit me at home in her astral body. I would often see our dog look off into space or react to something I could not see. "Margie, are you there"? Yes indeed, she was. She always knew what I was doing. Spooky.

[Avocadess]

Starchild: I can relate -- although my experiences are a bit different. When I was 12 years old I used to read a lot of books that got me to thinking about beings from other planets and I believed they existed without ever questioning it. I was so CURIOUS. I wanted to go on a ship and see what was going on with them, so I would lay in bed at night and telepathically say to them, "Please come see me. I want to see you!" And then after a few minutes I would think about how scary that might be, so I would always add at the end, "But not if it's going to scare me!" None ever came.

Until much, much later. I was about 38 years old and sleeping in bed. Next thing I knew I was being "floated" up into the sky over Austin. I could see all around me. It was very early in the morning and there was daylight and I saw many, many other people being floated up at the same time as me -- men and women. One fellow seemed amusing to me, dressed in a suit and holding a briefcase and his suit flapping in the breeze.

But I also noticed that the other people I could see did not seem to be "awake." I was the only one that I could tell was awake. We were all spaced equidistant apart -- maybe a couple hundred feet from one another -- and I looked up and saw a small round craft above each person. This caused me to look up and I saw a small round craft that had what LOOKED like hot molten lava in a circular form that was almost near the full diameter of the craft that I was being floated up toward. That one moment was the MOST terrifying experience I can remember in my entire life -- and I have known terror more than once. I feared I was going to go into a "hell" of hot lava is the reason I was so terrified.

Then, after the terror gripped me, suddenly it was like "The Wizard of Oz" and the poppy fields. A cloud of calm came over me and that is the last thing I remembered before waking up in my bed -- feeling as though it was NOT a dream. It was too real in my memory. Like a memory of something that really did happen.

I woke up with dreams a few times more over the next month or so that I could not tell if they were real or dreams. One time I was taken on a very, very large craft. Other humans were there too -- and each one of us had our own "escort." The escorts looked like tall humans, but I do not remember looking closely at their faces. It was like being in a very, very large circular airport, with just as many people, walking along the wide hallways. I was taken to see a young girl who was maybe 8 or 10 years old. She was very beautiful with brown hair but not entirely human. Her EYES were extremely large and almond-shaped and brown. I do not remember anything after that in that "dream."

Then I had a "dream" that I was in a projection room, as in a classroom or private theater with a large screen. Not many people were in the audience. there were chairs for many more, but only about 30 people or less were sitting in the chairs to watch the screen. There was some show on and within the show was a TV set that was turned on with a lady newscaster who was also very beautiful and in her twenties but with the same HUGE brown eyes (shape and placement of the eyes very much like the cover on the book Communion).

I thought, as if talking to whomever was showing us this, "Do you really think that this is going to make us get USED to it?!!!" (Clearly I doubted it.) Then I remember nothing else, except that when I woke up that time I suddenly had ZERO interest in anything UFO-related. I had for the past month been really INTO it and had bought several books and was talking to friends about the possibilities, etc., and suddenly I wanted NOTHING of it. I gave away all my books and told my friends I did not want to talk about it anymore. When asked why, I said, "I'm just not interested." One friend said, "Maybe they hypnotized you to not be interested," and my response was, "Well, yes, I have wondered that too. And if they did, I'm glad they did. Because I am just not interested in this anymore!"

That was nearly 20 years ago. Over the past four or five years I started getting interested again.

Needless to say, I loved that thing I read -- where was it? it had to do with the mass arrests and all -- that the ETs would make their presence known to us, but not in a way that would be scary. It certainly does occur to me that should our human military come public as explaining after the mass arrests that they could not have done it without the help of friendly ETs, this would INDEED be a way that would not seem so scary. Almost any other way seems like it could potentially be very frightening indeed...!

[Avocadess]

Another very strange experience of a different sort happened to me when I was about 21 or 22 years old. I had been from the age of 16 very suicidal. Even before that, from the age of 12, I longed for death. I used to ponder deeply about dying and think how much happier I would be not to be here in this life and would read about what might happen after death the way other people read brochures for going on dream vacations. By the time I was 22 I was not as suicidal but it was still a part of my makeup you might say. I was not thrilled with being here.

Then one night after I went to sleep I had an amazing experience. It was as if "death" came to collect me. I was being pulled from my body and I understood that this meant I would be leaving this life forever. My own response to this AMAZED me, because I did NOT want to die. My being was filled with protest and I knew I had "a thousand" things yet to do -- which I felt to be deeply urgent and important.

Then I woke up and felt much awe. I feel that experience was given to me to help me keep a resolve to remain alive in this life on this Earth and in this body. I kept thinking over and over again, "Wow. I had no idea I really WANTED to be here...!!!!"

[DNA]

My experiences got progressively out there I guess.

1. When I was fifteen, I worked in a upscale dinning establishment and saw a beautifull woman and her perfectly groomed child and I knew without a shadow of a doubt that they were not human. I know this sounds presumptous, but I have learned to trust instictual knowing on this level, and even now I"m convinced this was the case. Never had something like that happen again.

2. When I was seventeen I moved into a place haunted by the recent suicide that took place right before we moved in. I had an experience that led me to believe I helped the entity move on. The story is here. A haunted house I moved into at age 17. Do you have a haunting to share?

3. When I was eighteen and camping, I had a classic abduction dream before I knew anything about the grey aliens or anything. Complete with a flying saucer, a beam of paralyzing light and the strange feeling that this had all happened before.

4. At 29 after years of meditation I became capable of seeing ghosts after this incident. How To See A Ghost For Your Self

5. I saw a Shadow Being and talked with it for a while. My Interactions With A Shadow Being.

6. After delving into the etheric plane and coming up with the information I placed here Parasitic Non-Organic Multidimensional Beings I began seeing fifth dimensional folks.

7. After working with these fifth dimensional positive folks for a while, and meditating with them, I was told to drive into the desert mountains in the middle of the night, and well, I saw what looked like a real nuts and bolts UFO come down from what looked like satellite orbit. Holographically Projected Human/Alien Healers


I've chilled out for the past five years. I think I've seen enough to last me for a while.

[ThePythonicCow]

I am reminded by a member that there was a similar thread to this, started by king anthony a couple of months ago here: What Is Your 'Unusual Experience' Story?. So if you're enjoying the experiences on this thread, you might check out that thread too. I won't merge the two threads, but just cross link them ... they each stand on their own OK.