Excavating The Empty Tomb - The Gospels based on Homer's Odyssey?

[panopticon]

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
Still no data about the salad but more about the meat:

From: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ats-for-dinner

After successfully unearthing and preserving "Blue Babe," a 36,000-year-old steppe bison found near Fairbanks in 1979, Guthrie's team celebrates by simmering some leftover flesh from Babe's neck "in a pot of stock and vegetables." The author reports that "the meat was well aged but still a little tough, and it gave the stew a strong Pleistocene aroma." Now, I'm all for scientific esprit de corps, and I'm not by nature an incurious sort, but I'll say right now I don't see the appeal. Let's keep it simple: frozen meat from tundra = specimen; frozen meat from freezer = dinner. Study the mammoths and eat the burgers, and anyone who craves that great prehistoric taste can wash 'em down with Tab.
— Cecil Adams

Thanks for that Amzer Zo,

I laughed long at hard at the comment: "the meat was well aged but still a little tough, and it gave the stew a strong Pleistocene aroma."
At least the sense of humour remains intact!
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

I found an article in relation to the Hovind claims (I haven't watched his youtube clip yet) about a squadron in Greenland and ice core samples, that Sigma6 bought up, and it appears Hovind made an assumption based on a faulty premise. He assumed that all ice cores are created at the same rate in different geographical locations while another writer also pointed out that he disregarding the fact that the metal of the planes would heat quicker than that of the ice and gradually melt the snow/ice (at least the initial surface snow/ice) and sink.

Here is part of an article, by Paul H. Seely, published by the American Scientific Affiliation (who call themselves 'A Network Of Christians In The Sciences') to which I have highlighted some passages:

###############

The Lost Squadron Argument
In July of 1942, six pursuit planes (P-38’s) and two bombers (B-17’s) crash-landed on the Greenland ice cap. By 1990 they were found under c. 250 feet of ice and snow, which depth corresponds to c. 250 years of accumulation for the GISP2 ice core. In his 1992 paper, Larry Vardiman mentioned the surprising burial depth of the Lost Squadron planes, but he admitted that their depth of burial could not be simplistically used as evidence that the ice cores are being mis-dated. Some young-earthers have not been as wise and have argued from the depth of the WWII planes to the rejection of the age of the ice cores.

Carl Wieland wrote a short paper in 1997 arguing on the basis of the depth of the WWII airplanes that the 3,000 meter long GRIP ice core “would only represent some 2000 years of accumulation.” Allowing for some compression of lower layers and the greater snowfall for a few centuries after the Flood, he concluded, “There is ample time in the 4,000 or so years since Noah’s day for the existing amounts of ice to have built up.”

Kent Hovind, who has a four-minute tape on the Internet about ice cores, calculated that the WWII planes were covered at the rate of c. 5½ feet of snow/year. He then said that if you divide that rate into the 10,000 foot ice core, you only get 1,824 years; so “4400 is a really reasonable assumption.” Hovind also telephoned Bob Cardin, who was one of the main people who raised one of the planes to the surface and asked him if he had noticed how many layers there were in the ice in the hole made to excavate the plane. Cardin answered off the cuff, “Many hundreds of them.” On the basis of this answer, Hovind concluded that the lines in the ice cores are not summer/winter, but warm/cold lines and that thirty of them could be made in a single year.

Two experienced glaciologists informed me that Hovind is largely correct about the “hundreds” of lines in the hole dug to remove the WW2 planes. They both said that the area where the planes landed is a relatively warm area because of its lower, southern elevation, and several melt layers can be formed every year in regions like that which would appear as layers in the hole. Add to these melt layers the actual annual layers, which near the top show up as several lines within the space of a few inches, and you can have an off the cuff estimate of “hundreds of lines.” One can understand Hovind’s confusion.

But let’s make this perfectly clear: The 110,000 layers of the GISP2 ice core are not due to melting. They are definitely not melt layers. Even if melting had occurred more often in the past, layers due to melting are readily recognized and would certainly not be counted as annual.

This leaves the question: How could some 250 feet of snow in the area of GISP2 cover a period of c. 250 years while 250 feet of snow in the area of the Lost Squadron planes only covers c. 50 years? In Richard Alley’s book, The Two Mile Time Machine, he says he is often asked this question. The answer is: “The World War II planes landed in one of the regions of Greenland where snow accumulates fastest.” And in answer to the question: Did anyone ever figure out why the Lost Squadron planes were buried so much deeper than expected? Bob Cardin told me that it was because the average snow accumulation in that area is c. 7 feet/year (7 x 50 = 350 feet deep). If you allow for some compression, it is easy to understand how the planes got buried 250 feet deep.

So, the area in which the Lost Squadron landed, which is southern Greenland c. 10 miles from the east coast, with its high rate of snow accumulation (c. 7 feet/year) vs. the area of GISP2 in central Greenland with its comparatively low rate of snow accumulation (1 foot or so/year) is why 250 feet of snow represents just 50 years for the Lost Squadron but around 250 years for the GISP2 ice core. And, of course, as one goes down the core, the snow/ice is compressed more and more so that each foot of ice represents greater and greater lengths of time.

In conclusion we see that creation science has offered little more than speculation as evidence to disprove the validity of the dating of the GISP2 ice core. Opposing this speculation is solid empirical evidence that the layers of hoar frost, dust, and electrical conductivity are seasonal, not from storms, melting, different climate conditions or any other such supposition. Although one of the methods of counting annual layers may fail on rare occasions, the other methods fill in and sustain the accuracy of the counting; and the three methods regularly and repeatedly corroborate each other. In addition, the validity of the dating is established by the fact that there is a dovetailing of the dates of GISP2 with the dates of solar cycles, sea cores, tree rings, volcanic events, and more. The GISP2 ice core thus provides clear, scientific proof that there was no global flood any time in the last 40,000 to 110,000 years.

###############

So it appears that Hovind asked Cardin (who was at the WW2 plane site) if there were layers in the ice, to which Cardin said "Many hundreds of them". Hovind then said well that means that "all the ice core data is wrong" without any understanding of how the ice cores are dated (it doesn't just involve counting layers) or knowing the difference between accumulative (yearly) layers and melt layers...

I also found a 3 part article series by Seely titled 'The Flood: Not Global, Barely Local, Mostly Theological' (which looks like an interesting read) in which he states (bolding added):

When tells in the Near East which date from 5000 to the time of Abraham are examined, no evidence of a global flood is found. In fact, overlapping layers of occupation, one on top of the other, often with the remains of mud-brick houses in place, are found intact spanning the entire period. No matter what specific date one might put on the flood after 5000 B.C., there were sites in the Near East at that date where people lived and remained undisturbed by any serious flood. In other words, not only is there no evidence of a flood that covered the Near East, there is archaeological evidence that no flood covered the Near East between 5000 and the time of Abraham.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

G'day All,

Here's the Hovind video I think Sigma6 was referring too:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ue8rVSmrmZ0

I agree with his statement: 'Ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever!'
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[sigma6]

hindsight is 20/20...

he certainly did expose that their ability to measure these things isn't as tight as they were initially presenting, it does sound a tad like there is some 'back pedaling' after the fact, perhaps even some potentially huge rationalizations? But I leave that to others to decide.

Meanwhile the other side of it is Michael Cremo's work in which he hypothesizes that there is plenty of archaeological evidence to show that man has been around for hundreds of thousands of years, maybe even millions? And I think both Lloyd Pye and Gregg Braden make reference to genetic studies that say based on mitochodria DNA analysis that the fusion of the second and third genes was inbetween 150 thousand and 250 thousand years ago.

lots of different theories out there... amazing amount of research on your part panoptican, well done man!

[panopticon]

G'day Sigma6,

I am intrigued by the mammoth "flash freeze" story and its origins.

One reason I am a member of Avalon is so I can get others input into subjects that may not necessarily be easy to find out about (1615 heads are better than one) and also because there are many very knowledgeable people at Avalon who can point me in more directions than I might otherwise look.
That being said I always research so I can draw an informed conclusion for myself.

The question of whether humanity has existed longer than the official record is a bit of a rabbit hole...

While I find out of place artefacts (like the 'Antikythera Mechanism') fascinating I really don't have the time to wander down that path. I do enjoy reading about them though.

One thing I try to remember (and the reason I chose the panopticon user name) is that there are always biases in place (that both define and confine the various discursive processes). I ask myself the "who, what, where, when, how and why" questions so as to be aware of the basic pre-suppositions (both others and my own) that are "bought to the table".

If nothing else I try to remain open to new ideas and understandings because history has taught us that what is "fringe" today is "cutting edge" tomorrow.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[sigma6]

All considering, as subtle and complex as things may get, my ultimate goal is to seek out simplification, to distill general principles from particular situations, that said

"an ice cream in the hand is worth two mammoths in the drift"...

In any event, I was wondering if anyone could help me find a video online, it had that famous researcher and tv personality; Simcha Jacobovici as host, and it was either a History Channel or a Decoding the Past special or something like that, it was an archeological interpretation of Emperor Constantine, discussing the symbology in the buildings, and the artwork, describing what he was really up to when he converted to Christianity, has anyone heard of it? I can't seem to find it again, and I really wanted to post it here...

[heyokah]

Posted by sigma6 (here)
All considering, as subtle and complex as things may get, my ultimate goal is to seek out simplification, to distill general principles from particular situations, that said

"an ice cream in the hand is worth two mammoths in the drift"...

In any event, I was wondering if anyone could help me find a video online, it had that famous researcher and tv personality; Simcha Jacobovici as host, and it was either a History Channel or a Decoding the Past special or something like that, it was an archeological interpretation of Emperor Constantine, discussing the symbology in the buildings, and the artwork, describing what he was really up to when he converted to Christianity, have anyone heard it? I can't seem to find it again, and I really wanted to post it here...

Are you perhaps looking for "Secrets of Christianity/Decoding the Ancients ".
6 x 1 hour • Documentary Series • Produced in association with: History Television Canada and The History Channel US • Production year: 2010

http://www.apltd.ca/films/display/15

Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4

[sigma6]

Yes, yes, yes! Thank you [sister]! another reminder of why we gather together and network... lol I couldn't find it for the life of me, was searching christianity constantine simcha decoding the past, etc... well done.

[heyokah]

You're welcome.
Hope you won't be embarrassed if I tell you I'm a woman.
However, my nickname is Watson. LOL

[observer]

Posted by heyokah (here)
[....snip]
Are you perhaps looking for "Secrets of Christianity/Decoding the Ancients ".
6 x 1 hour • Documentary Series • Produced in association with: History Television Canada and The History Channel US • Production year: 2010

http://www.apltd.ca/films/display/15

Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4

Thank you so much, heyokah, for finding this series. I've only had the time to view "Selling Christianity", so far. I can recall seeing this Simcha Jacobovici in some other documentary, however, it has been over a year ago. I'm certain one of those you listed was the one I've seen.

This "Selling Christianity" is highly informative regarding the role Emperor Constantine (Saint Constantine in the Orthodox Catholic Church) played in the creation of Trinity Christianity. One can clearly see how the work of Constantine was foundational in the nearly 2000 year continuous agenda to give The Holy Roman Emperor, The Pope, the authority to call himself the 'Vicar of Christ', and the "Vicar of God".

It has to be apparent to anyone researching this agenda that this entire Trinity fantasy is such a farce. The true heresy is the nearly two thousand years of obscene pain and suffering this Trinity Religion has wracked on Humanity. Very few Fundamentalist Christians can see this dichotomy.

One must understand, the work of Constantine was at the end of a nearly three hundred year span of time in which a continuous agenda was perpetrated by a ruling elite group known as The Piso, in which most Nazorean Christians (A.K.A., Essene Christians/Gnostic Christians) were purged from the planet in lieu of the Roman version of Christianity - Trinity Christianity. This is all from evidence that was not included in the "Selling Christianity" episode.
See:

Posted by observer (here)
Click-on forwarding arrow to view content of comment

Even without seeing the entire "Secrets of Christianity" series, I would highly recommend for our friend RedeZra to view (if nothing more) the "Selling Christianity" video. It goes such a long way in documenting the evidence I've been trying to show him for so long now.

[panopticon]

Posted by sigma6 (here)
Excavating The Empty Tomb, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XFmeDfsv4j8

G'day All,

Just finished listening to the OP video and will be using it in future as a means of illustrating how the various Gospels of the NT made use of the literary forms and norms of the period. I had come across this information before but the way it is described in the video is excellent and was well worth the listen.

The detailed analysis of Mark was very well done as was the research and references used. I am glad he used some the early "Church Fathers" and historians as references and much of my personal research, for what it's worthy, can confirm his.

I also appreciated that he was building a case and not saying "this is how it is" as that gave him more "authenticity" and increased his "believability" as far as I was concerned. He just stated the facts and pointed at their ramifications. Very well done.

Thanks to Sigma6 for bringing this video to our attention.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by cloud9 (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)
Gnosticism could not cope with God of the Old Testament

who once flooded the whole earth incinerated Sodom and Gomorrah made war against the Nephilim in Canaan and gave mankind the Ten Commandments writ in stone

The god that flooded earth and all the rest of nasty stuff is not my God.... it's not GOD!

well you must remember that the people had begun to multiply into the millions and make a lot of noise

even on the sabbath

also some of His angels just had to make out with women and beget huge semi-angels with an attitude

who were not satisfied with the work of the Creator

but took it upon themselves to genetically modify everything

which God called corruption of His creation

[panopticon]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
well you must remember that the people had begun to multiply into the millions and make a lot of noise
even on the sabbath
also some of His angels just had to make out with women and beget huge semi-angels with an attitude
who were not satisfied with the work of the Creator
but took it upon themselves to genetically modify everything
which God called corruption of His creation

G'day RedeZra,

That's the way I understand the Sumerian myth goes, all except the part about 'genetically modifying everything'.
Nice twist.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by panopticon (here)

G'day RedeZra,

That's the way I understand the Sumerian myth goes, all except the part about 'genetically modifying everything'.
Nice twist.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

hi Pan

the so-called pleistocene megafauna was probably the result of genetic engineering by the huge anunnaki or semi-angels

so God had a good reason to flood it

[Hervé]

Still no fresh salad from the beasts digestive system... but some other news re a biggy meteorite:


Meteorite storm 'smashed the Earth 12,000 years ago and killed off a prehistoric people'
By Daily Mail Reporter

PUBLISHED:09:49 GMT, 12 June 2012 | UPDATED:15:01 GMT, 12 June 2012

• Scientists find 'melt-glass' in 12,000-year-old rock
  
• Melt glass forms at 1,700 degrees - equal to atomic bomb
  
• Meteorites thought to have triggered a cold snap that killed off early civilisation and giant animals

Scientists have found compelling evidence that a meteorite storm hit the earth more than 12,000 years ago, and is likely to have been responsible for the extinction of a prehistoric people and giant animals including mammoths.Evidence of the meteorite’s intense heat was found on two continents. The researchers believe the huge cosmic impact triggered a vicious cold snap, which caused widespread destruction.

The international team found a substance known as melt glass, which forms at temperatures of 1,7000 to 2,200 degrees Celcius and can result from a ‘cosmic body’ hitting the earth.


Extreme heat: The meteorite impact caused the 13,000-year-old quartz found in Syria to melt and boil, creating features including burst bubbles and flow textures

The material was found in a thin layer of rock in Pennsylvania and South Carolina in the US, along with Syria. Tests confirmed the material was not of cosmic, volcanic or human-made origin.


More... 'Mega meteor that crashed off Indian coast' may have wiped out dinosaurs


‘The extreme temperatures required are equal to those of an atomic bomb blast, high enough to make sand melt and boil,’ said James Kennett, professor of earth science at UC Santa Barbara.

The melt-glass appears identical to other material found in Meteor Crater in Arizona, and the Australasian tektite field, and also matches melt-glass produced by the 1945 Trinity nuclear airburst in New Mexico in the US, Professor Kennett said.


Gone forever: The meteor storm is thought to have caused the mass extinction of megafauna including the woolly mammoth


The team's findings support the controversial theory that an asteroid impact occurred 12,900 years ago and triggered the start of an unusual cold period on Earth, leading to widespread extinction of human and animal life.

In the cold period, known as the Younger Dryas, North American megafauna including mammoths and giant ground sloths disappeared forever, along with a prehistoric civilisation called the Clovis culture.

The Clovis people used distinctive bone and ivory tools and are regarded as the first human inhabitants of the New World.


Match: Melt glass, known as trinitite, formed during the Trinity nuclear airburst in New Mexico in 1945 when rocks melted. The scientists say the melt-glass is similar to that found in the 12,800-year-old rock


Evidence supporting the theory has now been found on three continents, covering nearly one-third of the planet, from California to Western Europe, and into the Middle East.

Syria is the easternmost site yet identified in the northern hemisphere, but the researchers have yet to find a limit to debris field of the impact. Melt-glass has been found in rock layers of the same age in Arizona and Venezuela.


Scientists found the melt glass - evidence of the meteorite's intense heat - in Pennsylvania and South Carolina in the US along with Syria

The three sites found in the latest study were separated by 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers, suggesting that ‘a swarm of cosmic objects,’ either fragments of a meteorite or comet, had hit the earth, Professor Kennett said.

Proof: Earth scientist James Kennett says evidence for the meteorite has been found over one third of the planet

Professor Kennett added that the archaeological site in Syria where the melt-glass material was found –– Abu Hureyra, in the Euphrates Valley –– is one of the few sites of its kind that record the transition from nomadic hunter-gatherers to farmer-hunters who live in permanent villages.

‘Archeologists and anthropologists consider this area the “birthplace of agriculture,” which occurred close to 12,900 years ago,’ Professor Kennett said.

‘The presence of a thick charcoal layer in the ancient village in Syria indicates a major fire associated with the melt-glass and impact spherules 12,900 years ago,’ he continued.

‘Evidence suggests that the effects on that settlement and its inhabitants would have been severe.’

The study was published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz1xpMlfDOA

[panopticon]

G'day Amzer Zo,

Thanks for the article and link.

I did a quick search and found the source material:
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/13/E738.full

Very interesting.
So it is possible that an event (or series of events) of this magnitude would have "kicked up" sufficient material to bring about the Younger Dryas.
If this occurred it would have produced sufficient cooling to alter the climatic conditions dramatically, reducing vegetation and increasing snow/ice coverage resulting in drastically altered migratory patterns and/or large animal starvation (remember Mammoths would have had to eat a lot).

Just as a thought might this have produced "ice dams" which thawed in later years producing localised out-burst events?
The reason I ask is that would explain (to me at least) why there are collections of mammoth fossils in certain areas.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

BTW -- I've been doing a bit of research into human/pre-human genome and it appears that the chromosome 2 fusion dates back to Neanderthals (not a common ancestor of homo sapiens) which would place it originally, at the very least, with the last common ancestor 'archaic homo sapiens' (so at least 500,000 yBP). The information on this is a bit scant at the moment unfortunately but I'm finding it very interesting.

[Hervé]

Hi Panopticon,

Thanks for the link.

That thing must have been one big single/cluster mother f****r!

I agree that such a catastrophic event would have kicked up a lot of dust and particles up in the atmosphere to which needs to be added the smoke, ashes and vapors from the widespread fires -- at least all over North America -- enough to generate a few days of darkness, I guess.

In turn, that lack of sun light would increase the precipitation of water vapors (also if that meteorite or a cluster of them hit lakes and/or shallow seas, partly vaporising and partly splashing it/them around) inducing floods and probably the burst of ice damms as well.

The crux of the matter and some of the constraints on this event for the Siberia area are given by these two factors:

1- The woolly mammoths found had somewhat a full "stomach."

2- In order to have that stomach still full, they died pretty quick during their continuous meals.

So, those weren't starved to death and nobody has as yet reported an anomalous amount of meteoritic buckshots in their meat except for the ones found in the tusks. Although, now, interested people might take a closer look so as to avoid broken teeth chewing on it.

That, again leads to a rapid preserve method following the catastrophic event. Not days after when the vegetation was already burnt to cinders in some areas. I haven't heard yet of cinged wool from the woolly mammoths from those areas.

My inclination, for the moment, is that the ones that have been discovered whole were rapidly burried in either, thixotropic mud, thick mud flows or feet of snow due to a higher rate of precipitations. Drowned, whatever the case.

Currently, the theory goes that "Ice Ages" are actually due to global warming from the increase of moisture in the atmosphere creating fast snow in the polar and high altitude regions and which fails to melt during the following years, hence keeping accumulating into growing and advancing glaciers.

All considered, a cluster of meteorites hitting Earth at that time would encompass a lot of the "Flood" stories collected from around the various cultures... from big splashes of water waved all around, rain, days of darkness, mammoths sinking instantly into the impact shaken thixotropic grounds they were standing on... starts to make sense to me. Then, considering that meteorite showers are cyclical in nature... easy to predict another "End of Time" event for when that cluster comes back... by "Fire and Brimstones" this time. The latter would indicate that those who made these predictions somehow had an inkling that the pieces left from that cluster aren't big enough to generate big splashes and waves when hitting an ocean or a sea.... Then, again, this time, Earth might be on the other side of the Sun at the time of the return and the cluster will continue unabated on its course onto other targets and obstacles. Isn't that interesting... the "Time of the Return?"

Until further data,

Cheers!

[observer]

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
[....snip]
".... the "Time of the Return?"

The time of the Return.... indeed, Amzer.

A 'must watch' video, for foundational understanding:

"Thunderbolts of the Gods"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+of+the+gods+#

[Hervé]

Mammoth graveyard uncovered in Serbia

Posted Jun 16 2012 by phenomenica in Ancient, Prehistory


The world’s first collective graveyard of a herd of mammoths has been discovered at the excavation site for coal in Serbia.

Heavy torrential rain earlier this week exposed the remains of what could be up to six mammoths, at an open pit mine in Kostolac, east of Belgrade not far from a site where two other mammoth remains had been uncovered in recent years.

Miomir Korac, director of the Archeological Project Viminacium, which is named after the Roman provincial capital along the Danube River, said that the discovery came as a complete surprise.

The archeologists were first alerted to one set of giant remains of a mammoth that was damaged by the mining machinery. But then the heavy downpour rinsed away the yellow sand.



Korac’s team will now use infrared screening to get a better idea of what lies below the surface and check if there are additional mammoth bones.

“We will use all tools possible including tooth picks to scrape sand from the teeth, which could answer the epoch of the mammoths,” ABC News quoted Nemanja Mrdjic, an archeologist of the team digging at the site, as saying.

Korac elucidated that the location covers an area of some 20.000 square meters on what could have been an island in the Pannonian Sea, which today is the most fertile land of Hungary, northern Serbia and Croatia.

[...]


Full article: http://www.phenomenica.com/2012/06/m...in-serbia.html


Coal... excavation of... and an accompanying mammoth graveyard... I guess those starved to death due to scorched earth incidental to asteroids and meteorites overhead bursts....

Oh! And there was a sea there too....

[Hervé]

On the human side of the story:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=PUqdYBxbbck

Published on Jun 8, 2012 by ThunderboltsProject

Excerpt from The Catastrophic Termination of the Last Ice Age by Robert Schoch, Electric Universe 2012 Conference: The Human Story.

PLEASE NOTE: Many speakers and panelists at the January conference in Las Vegas will be speaking at the upcoming Natural Philosophy Alliance conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, July 25-28.
http://conference.worldnpa.org


"The sky fell..."