'WHO IS IT'? - (silent watcher)-(knowing the knower)-(seeing the see-'er) -Spirit,

[Jenci]

Hi John and thank you for the thread, I've just caught up on it.

I've picked out a couple of quotes of yours where you talk about watching the watcher and seeing the watcher.

Posted by ljwheat (here)

Posted by Wakytweaky (here)
Hi John,

I really love you posts and threads lately.
You're on fire!

Posted by Sebastion (here)
As far as I am concerned the silent watcher is in reality, your own god-consciousness/awareness.

Can you watch the silent watcher?

Can you be what you can observe?

Wakytweaky, wow, nice pointing with your questions its the direction of aware of the awareness. Yes, and Yes to both. Watching silent watcher is probably the easiest why to see watcher is in nature,

Posted by ljwheat (here)
This next You-tube video Mooji, tells a very compelling story in witch one is suddenly confronted with the real you, put yourself into this story feel into it deep, and you will come away with finally seeing the silent watcher, the you that you’ve forgotten is always there. It only works when you put on the shoe’s of the story. Enjoy. John XXX

It's not easy putting this subject into words and I have hestiated to write this because there are so many subtleties here. I will try to not overcomplicate things and if I am or confusing the issue, then please just disregard.

Sometimes we can all understand things differently but it appears to me from your writing that the silent watcher is the term you are using for the Source but you are also talking about "seeing the watcher".

In other words you are talking about something "seeing"(A) seeing something else (B) "the watcher".

If "the watcher" (B) is the source, then what is "seeing" (A) which comes prior to it?

You mention Mooji. Mooji has a chapter in his book Breath of the Absolute called My Final Question.

He says:
Can you, the Perceiver, be seen? If I only had one question, I would ask you this, and I will keep asking you this. It is so potent a question that you could forget everything else you have ever heard or studied, and it would lead you Home.

To relate it to what I said above. He is talking about the Perceiver. The Perceiver is (A) which perceives (B) and he is asking if (A) can be seen.

And for Fred who likes experiences as well as quotes I enquired with this question for a very long time - I am talking months. There's a clue in the Nisargadatta quote above from anotherbob where he says "The person comes into being when there is a basis for it, an organism, a body. In it, the absolute is reflected as awareness."

When Mooji says that he will keep asking you the question he means that because if you answer the question, you still need to enquire with the question.

The question itself will lead you Home but it will burn deep in doing so.

Jeanette

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Jenci (here)
And for Fred who likes experiences as well as quotes I enquired with this question for a very long time - I am talking months. There's a clue in the Nisargadatta quote above from anotherbob where he says "The person comes into being when there is a basis for it, an organism, a body. In it, the absolute is reflected as awareness."

When Mooji says that he will keep asking you the question he means that because if you answer the question, you still need to enquire with the question.

The question itself will lead you Home but it will burn deep in doing so.

Ah yes Jenci, getting right down into the nitty gritty, I like that. And of course "The Question" seems to pop up a lot in these circles doesn't it? My memory is still very clear on one of my initial promptings to begin the journey in this bizarre direction.

Around 15 or so years ago, our local Unitarian Universalist Church used to run a big ad in the Sunday paper that I seemed to always "stumble"(ha ha) across. It was very simple, a picture of the minister saying: "To question is the answer". That's it, short and sweet. Of course for years I saw that, and liked it, but couldn't quite grasp where it was really going. Thinking back now, it was very similar to Neo's "thorn" in his mind: "Always question Fred, always question! Whatever you do, question!"

Simplicity... "To Question Is The Answer". Gotta love it!

[Falcor]

lots of different words are used to try and get across this understanding. it is my belief that this is for the adept seeker to truly understand


i briefly touched on the bhagavad gita yesterday (it was literally given to me on the street, i reckon a good sign i should read it )

the absolute truth is found in three ways of understanding.
Brahman - the impersonal self
Paramatma - the localized aspect of the supreme within the heart of all living entities
Bhagavan - the supreme personality godhead

a bit more in depth from the egyptian teachings i have read

The creator in man is man's own self whose last manifestation, farthest from his own centre, is his little "I", his personal "I-consciousness". The personal "I" within him is the image of god mirrored by matter- in the body. Thus when man seeks to return to god and re-establish his identity with him he must follow the same path with his consciousness: he must draw his consciousness more and more from his own little personal "I"-deeper and deeper into himself- turning to his own true self, to his creator, until he conciously recognizes himself in him. But this doesnt mean that the creature--the person--recognizes itself in this condition. As an imaginary being, it has no true existence and cannot achieve self knowledge. On the contrary, the creator recognizes himself in the created, in the person. This is the only possibility for over coming the state of separation and bringing back the consciousness into the state of unity: the individual stops thinking about himself and instead becomes himself, recognizes himself. In this condition, the recognizer, the recognized, and the recognition are one and the same. the self--the creator--recognizes its self in itself!

Man can only experience God in this way. This is resurrection! In this state he recognizes that his own self has created him and is constantly creating him, hence that his own self is his creator. He likewise realizes that the one and only self is the creator of the entire universe. As a result of this divine self-recognition he simultaneously experiences the creative cosmic all consciousness. At the same time as he achieves self-recognition, he achieves recognition of everything, omniscience!

This divine state in which the creator recognizes himself may also be expressed symbolically by numbers: God in his state of resting within himself is 1 in 3 and 3 in 1. 1 and 3 are still an unseparated unity

In the field of geometry, the form of the equilateral triangle is the symbolic image of god in which the recognizer, the recognized, and the recognition are one and the same: 1 in 3 and 3 in 1

[Shadowman]

Well said Jen. Generally seekers first experience the witness state, Turiya, which still carries with it the sense of a separate I, even where that I is distinct from all that is observable. So this is then often described as "seeing" the watcher, where "seeing" the watcher means being "it" rather than what they previously identified with ie the body/mind that the watcher observes. Which in itself is a deeply profound experience.

Beyond even this is Turiyatita, where the knower/knowing/known, the witness and the witnessed, nirvana and samsara, "merge" and any sense of separation dissipates. Here there is no longer any sense of a distinct I, it is the impersonal Brahman. Yet this is often misunderstood as nihilism, or void in the negative sense, which is entirely erroneous. While no word or concept can do justice to that, "I" use the term Self, as have many others, as there is the overwhelmingly direct sense of presence or existence, together with indescribable bliss and peace, far more profound than even the witness state.

Namaste
tim

[ljwheat]

My earliest encounter with (silent watcher) insert any label your comfortable with, as what I felt was not a definition or words.

I became in an instant the feeling -- was complete -- all knowing.-- Define less -- at the crisp age of 2 = 2 - ½ yrs of age before, indoctrination, domestication, pet slave to consumerism, forced vaccinated, coursed induced monkey see monkey do society.

Two older brothers 7 yrs older than I. Mother sick all the time self imposed sympathy seeker. Dad works 8 to 5 factory worker, living on a small vegetable truck farm 5 Acer strip of land. Veggie stand at road side for extra cash.

Pretty much left to my own devices no one wanted me around just to young for the families well established life style’s when I came along. Except for my best friend “BOOTS” collie dog. "We did everything together."

One day my brother’s at school, mom sick in bed, dad at work, Me and my friend decided to go to the back of the property were the tree line started. This is were there was a short path back to the sand pits. An area filled with sand doon’s and several natural ponds, spring fed.

The fields were freshly plowed on a sunny spring day, off to the sand ponds with my friend “BOOTS” I’m really not sure how long we were back there playing in the water, but at one spot along the bank squatting down watching some tad pole’s.

I reached down and scooped one up in a little pool of water in my little hand it was small in small hands.

Anyway I started to feel it moving in my hand, and feeling it suck in water to breath. I turned it over and could see threw the transparent belly skin its little tinny heart beating, and its stomach and lower intestines,-- flipping its tail, and righting itself, I was looking into its tinny eye’s --- at that moment-- everything-- in my little world stopped --noises,-- thinking --(not much at that age)-- I was aware of myself holding myself-- close enough to see me looking down at myself --as a tad pole,-- and the tad pole looking at-- and holding its self all at the same moment in time,-- I turned and looked at “Boots” and I was looking at me holding a tad pole looking at me from “Boots”eyes.

Standing up seeing my self stand up from two different angles. WOW self seeing self, seeing self. all at the same moment seperit and as all oneself.

Then out of the sky there came the sound of a swish at the same time lighting pain on the back side of my little leg’s.

Mom noticing I was no were to be found went looking and saw a pair of little shoe prints next to four paw prints leading towards the back of the property in the freshly plowed field. Pausing long enough to rip a branch off a weeping willow tree, that definition is correct i might add. Switched me all the way back to the house.

Now that I think back on it, why didn’t “boots” worn me my mother was approaching. Was “Boots” caught up in the same out of space time awareness as me and the tad pole, totally mesmerized? Till impacted LOL.

Anyway that was my earliest encounter with well YOU try and put a name on it, I’m still trying, the feeling into and the feeling looking back into myself from myself as a tad pole and as a dog. Twilight Zone stuff right?

And in the 50’s and 60’s you didn’t talk about stuff like that, at least I didn’t. -dont speak unless spoken too and all that plus my vocabulary wasn't much a 2.

So I know first hand-- that-- I am everything,- in everything,- being everything all at the same time. There are no words as it was a feeling and seeing omnipresent plural-- like falling,--- no more like moving into or on itself-- expanding-- no sense of boundary’s-- I didn’t know these terms back then and can only apply them now in retrospect.

Reliving that few moments, I have to let go of all the crap of this world and its endless noise. But when it pops and I enter that silent feeling zone. My head rushes out of me, that sense of falling starts to happen and my analytical mind ego pulls me back more offen than i want.

This is why I joined Avalon and started so many treads pointing at this --- this -- I don’t know-- wind --I become --that can move in all directions at once, feel everything at once, know everything at once. Words run from this --feeling-- or becoming when it begins to happen. And am left empty handed yet again.

I was the see’er, No I mean I am Seeing, always have and will. I am there --and yet in the world. Koo koo stuff right? John xxx

[Shadowman]

"Koo koo stuff right?"

No John, Kensho/Satori, and beautifully described. Straight from the heart, with sublime humility. Thanks for sharing,

In Deep Respect/Namaste
tim

[ljwheat]

Jenci

In other words you are talking about something "seeing"(A) seeing something else (B) "the watcher".

If "the watcher" (B) is the source, then what is "seeing" (A) which comes prior to it?


Yes I use this silent watcher only as a why to point at this (A) thingy’-- source, higher power, God, IS, Beingness, all these label’s can only point at what is seen in silent feeling of the labels.

Searching this planet since time began in this 3D realm will never find this, stepping into the heart time space witnessing sight threw silent feeling, once threw that door way of words is so expansive ---- words do not exist--those are left behind in an awareness of its awareness, the VAIL is in my opinion is the magnetism and gravity of words, that keeps us locked out of entering this expanse at will.

And using words to even point at this freedom outside of the word world we live in or cell. Is like adding another coat of stucco to the walls of that cell we walk around with.

Letting that cell drop away is the hardest mind trap there is. Because it has nothing to do with the mind, mind is the see’er, outside of that is the awareness of feeling all of it at once the knower of all thing. Its like watching a sleep walker with there eye’s closed standing at the counter making a sandwich at two in the morning, you’re the watcher there the see’er, seeing the sandwich and how great its going to taste, and totally asleep. The watcher you see and understand the person making the sandwich, seeing its dark out side, seeing the clock ticking away totally aware of seeing and watching everything all at once. The sleepwalker is 3D.

The watcher is outside this sleepwalking Vail, and when your there and are now, just asleep you feel everything in existence you feel so big nothing can contain you. The word you doesn’t even apply at that point you are everything In that awareness feeling completely free from even the word Free. Again pointing at this chases it away-- as pointing is part of the word VAIL as well.

Falling with out end, expanding, sensing the expansion with out the confining definitions and boundary’s have to fall away to wake up to infinity awareness 3D just doesn’t have enough space to do it. that’s were the saying dieing to the world your born again, Means for me. Its not a void, or comatose, unawareness coma some want to put in, that little box to be examined or point at its just to big even for the known universe to hold it.

And sometimes the watcher taps on the shoulder of the sandwich maker and says “shhhhh enjoy your sandwich all is well I have your back.” John xxx

[another bob]

Posted by ljwheat (here)
And sometimes the watcher taps on the shoulder of the sandwich maker and says “shhhhh enjoy your sandwich all is well I have your back.” John xxx

Thanks so much, John, for your revelations -- much appreciated as you share your discoveries and experiences in this adventure in consciousness!

Blessings to All Explorers!

[Jenci]

Posted by tim (here)
Well said Jen. Generally seekers first experience the witness state, Turiya, which still carries with it the sense of a separate I, even where that I is distinct from all that is observable. So this is then often described as "seeing" the watcher, where "seeing" the watcher means being "it" rather than what they previously identified with ie the body/mind that the watcher observes. Which in itself is a deeply profound experience.

Yes it is Tim. When this separation occurs and we go from being the person that we always were to being a watcher watching or a witness witnessing it can be very liberating and feel joyful.

At this stage the mind/ego has been caught out as it is no longer the identity of the person. It can either die a death or it can survive, so it will do everything it can to survive.

It's cunning and sneaky and will often take the back door route back to being the identity of the person. It will latch onto the wonderful liberating sense of awakening and will become the watcher/witness/Self hanging out there in disguise.

The person can be completely unaware that this switch has happened but this is where self enquiry comes in as our tool to search our the mind/ego in disguise and shine the light on it.

Enquiry takes discipline and sincerity. It can be exhausting catching the mind/ego out and then finding out it has sneaked back in somewhere else straight away in disguise again but with diligence and asking the right questions eventually something starts to learn and although the mind/ego will still try to play the game, it won't get to fool the Self anymore.

All of this happens in the right time. It may take many months or years for the realisation to complete but what we can do is help the process by putting in the work to reveal the truth.

In terms of this discussion and the self enquiry that I am talking about, if I was to have the thought that I can see the watcher, my first response would be to ask myself the question "what sees it?"


Jeanette

[Jenci]

Posted by johnf (here)
I don't spend much time reading the threads here much anymore since I decided to delve more into this particular subject. I have seen many videos posted here and fb, and elswhere, that have helped me get closer to a practice that works for me . However someone posted a video interveiw with Scott Filoby sometime back that seemed to spark a lack of interest in all the conspiracy/conflict type of stuff that gets discussed here, and a faith that there really was a way for "me" to get closer to this unity, non duality thing.

Hi John,

I find that my interest moves and changes. Sometimes I am interested in spiritual subjects, other times I am back into conspiracy topics. Either way something much deeper is happening. I have learned to get out of the way, go with the flow and just allow my interest to take me where I need to be.

I personally have found the term watcher to be misleading as what people seem to discover is that there isn't really a watcher at all just a veiw.
I first rediscovered this idea, and got the words to consistently point to it from a book called Doing Nothing, the end of the spiritual search, by Steven Harrison.

That's very good. There is always more to be revealed and what might appear very real at first may turn out to be illusion with further seeking and enquiry.....and eventually the search will end.

Then i saw Scott's interview where the phrases end of the spiritual search, and end of seeking were used a lot. This led to many hours of watching many different people on youtube talk about their experiences with non duality/unity, and i feel that these videos can transmit or remind us of this underlying reality.

I found Scott interesting too. There was a lot in his story that I related to. He conveys the message very well.

[ljwheat]

Bumping this thread I would like to introduce this wonderful soul named Mooji. This thread has given me much joy the few days that it was alive and running, so to revisit that joy, here is a heart felt gift for us all.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wtos5qHh7D8

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=CQFzW2C2za8