Drake: Updates, clarifications and more

[Chester]

Posted by StarDust (here)
TVM,

I encountered many people at the graduate level who tried to over think things. I suppose it is a requirement for some. As for me, I prefer to just do. Some things, like breathing, are just the natural order of things. One could easily analyze the mechanics of it to death, but that wouldn't change its function or necessity.

I was also going to suggest trying the process of "cloud erasing". I do it all the time and it works in demonstrating how open water vapor is to thought forms. However, it doesn't require a double blind study or some type of peer review, so I doubt that you would find that useful

I have experienced multiple miracle creations... what many folks would call miracles. I now realize I simply tapped a part of myself that is intimately tied with my perceived reality and somehow was able to energize something within this inner / outer dynamic which then created the miraculous event.

So actually these experiences are not miracles after all, just simply things we can do which most of us (well, at leat me for most of my life) had forgotten can be done.

It is physics and that the observer and the observation are intimately tied together. This is known science to many. It is the heart of synchronicity too... well, that's my opinion based on years of study of the phenomena.

justoneman

[the_vast_mystery]

Posted by Anchor (here)
When I was about 17, I was all about science.

Science did not explain it all.

So, I decided to take a leap of faith.

Instead of trying to bridge the chasm between the known and the unknown, constructed with the material of scientific understanding, I took a long hard "thoughtful" run up and then with a freaking huge leap of faith I just jumped.

The original plan was to work back to where I had started from and "prove" it to everyone, but the plan suffered from the its first engagement with the former enemy "reality".

Once I had landed, everything was so amazing I did not bother going back.

I also discovered I was not alone.

So now, I know what I know. I know why faith is what it is.

I know that proof and evidence means nothing to a person who is not me and the people here with me.

Last week my wife tripped and fell in our veggie garden, and bumped her back.

While she was laying in the grass, engaging with Gaia for some healing assistance to fix the damage, for about 15 minutes, she amused herself by turning the clouds into pictures of little scottie dogs.

I watched her fall and knew that all was well.

Afterwards no bruises.

Science.... its really more like systematic common sense for people that cannot see past our dense vibration.

That said, I am sure that science will build that bridge for those that wish to cross that way one day.

That sounds awfully nice and very artful, however it conveys very little to me other than "Faith > Reason." I took a leap of faith too, had a nice long tumble as I fell and am now putting myself back together after hitting the rocky ground that is reality. I've seen enough holes to know our current science operates with its own blind spots. However it also has over time been the single source of all of the most accurate models we have for understanding anything. I am convinced that for all its errors if is still the best working base we have to create an accurate and unbiased understanding of the world. Especially given that it's a constantly-evolving, self-correcting process.

That doesn't mean I'm not open to listening to alternatives as well. But considering the mindset I'm in the material needs to be presented in a way that I can understand it and make complete sense of it. So unfortunately the poetic format above does not sit well as it reminds me too heavily of religious mental/emotional conditioning. Which, I'll admit, I'm a little sensitive to anything that sounds too much like religion because of my own past family situation. I even gave religious thinking an honest try and for several months tried to believe as hard as I could and control my thinking to make me believe. It just didn't work though and came crashing down around the time I discovered David Wilcock was a fraud. So while I'm willing to admit my own ignorance may hide a clear understanding of all that is being conveyed I can at least say that unfortunately the above style of presentation only makes me less enthusiastic about the message and more likely to suspect the person presenting it.

There should be a way to prove these claims. Because if you can cause events to occur according to whatever you believe are doing (which impacts the physical world) and can reproduce doing so reliably there should be a way to design a set of experiments which should make the case for what you are saying. It might be that as of yet no one has created the exacting language needed for a suitable conceptual bridge, but I'm confident it should be possible. I simply would expect any prospective "higher being," having a far greater understanding of both the universe and of course the scientific human mindset would be able to immediately provide such a bridge on request. It would go a long way towards proving they are who they say they are and also make a great way for them to advocate to all peoples their good intent rather than to merely those that are religiously or spiritually inclined.

[Anchor]

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)
There should be a way to prove these claims. Because if you can cause events to occur according to whatever you believe are doing (which impacts the physical world) and can reproduce doing so reliably there should be a way to design a set of experiments which should make the case for what you are saying.

Your problem, as I perceive it, is that the "physical world" is not what a lot of people, perhaps even you, assume it to be.

This is why scientists using the models they are using, encounter problems with consciousness.

Especially those who work in a quantum physics context. It is why they now find that experiments have to be done in enclosures to prevent them from being observed (collapsing wave functions and all that).

I really like engaging on this topic, but I think we are so far off the topic of the thread that I feel a bit guilty

We need a new or appropriate thread.

[Unified Serenity]

Posted by Anchor (here)

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)
There should be a way to prove these claims. Because if you can cause events to occur according to whatever you believe are doing (which impacts the physical world) and can reproduce doing so reliably there should be a way to design a set of experiments which should make the case for what you are saying.

Your problem, as I perceive it is that the "physical world" is not what a lot of people, perhaps even you, assume it to be.

This is why scientists using the models they are using, encounter problems with consciousness.

Especially those who work in a quantum physics context. It is why they now find that experiments have to be done in enclosures to prevent them from being observed (collapsing wave functions and all that).

I really like engaging on this topic, but I think we are so far off the topic of the thread that I feel a bit guilty

We need a new or appropriate thread.

Well, this is my problem in regard to science and astro physics and how all that ties into various stuff like sacred geometry. I love Nassim Haramein, and he presents what looks like great stuff to me that makes it look sensible as he presents it, but if someone is not up really on the science of space how does one really know if what he is saying makes sense. The five platonic solids and folding of space etc, energy grids and throw in golden ratio and fibernacci sequence and it looks like there is a beautiful divine plan, but does it tie together? The flower of life is fascinating to me, and I think this is what caught my attention in this area first. Is there anyone who has really done the science work and worked with Nassim? Laviolette also comes to mind in all of this. I am not starting another thread for a while, LOL.

[KosmicKat]

I can't offer much (certainly nothing that would qualify as mainstream science) but my interest in music led me to learn about the fibonacci sequence and spirals in nature. Long since lost track of the reference but I came across a beautiful illustration of the way that ascending (or descending) octaves make a spiral pattern which also explained the "pythagorean comma" that makes it impossible for strings tuned two or more perfect octaves apart to resonate in tune above or below unison (i.e. if you have a guitar with the "E" strings perfectly tuned to each other the "G" will sound slightly discordant with the "g").

[Anchor]

Posted by Unified Serenity (here)
Well, this is my problem in regard to science and astro physics and how all that ties into various stuff like sacred geometry. I love Nassim Herrimein, and he presents what looks like great stuff to me that makes it look sensible as he presents it, but if someone is not up really on the science of space how does one really know if what he is saying makes sense. The five platonic solids and folding of space etc, energy grids and throw in golden ratio and fibernacci sequence and it looks like there is a beautiful divine plan, but does it tie together? The flower of life is fascinating to me, and I think this is what caught my attention in this area first. Is there anyone who has really done the science work and worked with Nassim? Laviolette also comes to mind in all of this. I am not starting another thread for a while, LOL.

This kind of physics is a kind of art. The inquiring mind observes patterns, and then for a host of reasons (desire to be of service, ego, whatever it is) they wish to share this observation and therefore communicate it. The presentation of it, by them is a kind of art.

The method and language of "Science" or Physics is one disciplined approach to do this and it seeks to remove doubt, but I think it cannot succeed except within its own self-imposed constraints, which ends up being its own undoing. It is not useless though. It is valid. It helps.

The patterns and systems these inquiring minds observe and communicate, in our local realities, are archetypes of creation that are relevant to us at this time. It is a consensus reality - co-created.

The service these people provide is beneficial if it helps others accelerate in understanding or awareness.

Science and physics also has its pitfalls - mainstream funded and controlled science has become a tool for the elite to control thinking on a massive scale.

We all know on this forum that scientists who discover useful things, especially free-energy related, and who attempt to "go public" are bought, discredited in some way, made criminals, killed or end up in a loony bin (whoa... nearly back on topic )

Regardless, we are all up against a very core problem of trying to tackle the infinite, with a finite mindset.

Abstraction does not come easy.

Art and poetry, allegory, imagery, are the only ways for one entity to have a chance of coming close to articulating one of an infinite number of paths of exploration.

It is also completely in line with freewill, because the observer makes their own subjective analysis of the information (which may be completely different to what was intended).

There is proof - but it is within, and when you find bits and pieces of it, it is only totally valid for you. Of course, that does not stop you, or me, trying to explain it - and I cant see any harm in it. So long as we tell the truth as best we know it and don't try to infringe on the freewill of others.

[SKAWF]

Posted by Anchor (here)

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)
There should be a way to prove these claims. Because if you can cause events to occur according to whatever you believe are doing (which impacts the physical world) and can reproduce doing so reliably there should be a way to design a set of experiments which should make the case for what you are saying.

Your problem, as I perceive it, is that the "physical world" is not what a lot of people, perhaps even you, assume it to be.

This is why scientists using the models they are using, encounter problems with consciousness.

Especially those who work in a quantum physics context. It is why they now find that experiments have to be done in enclosures to prevent them from being observed (collapsing wave functions and all that).

I really like engaging on this topic, but I think we are so far off the topic of the thread that I feel a bit guilty

We need a new or appropriate thread.

why cant this thread be turned from a negative.... into a positive?

as it stands i like it the way it is!
there have been ups and downs
arguments and the rest....

and out of the back of it,
comes something positive that restores the balance

[LarryC]

<< There should be a way to prove these claims. Because if you can cause events to occur according to whatever you believe are doing (which impacts the physical world) and can reproduce doing so reliably there should be a way to design a set of experiments which should make the case for what you are saying. >>

I am jumping into a complicated discussion here, but to me the above summarizes something important about the modern, conventional, rationalist-materialist paradigm. The preoccupation with double blind studies and reproducible results implies a universe where everything is mechanical and can be quantified. But what if everything doesn't work that way? We can all see evidence that many things are predictable and repeatable, at least to some extent. But so many things don't fit into this kind of framework. They are called anomalies, and usually just cast aside and ignored because they don't conveniently fit the model. It may very well be that the most events occur outside the reliable, Aristotelian universe where A is always A and two things cannot inhabit the same space at the same time.

[the_vast_mystery]

Posted by LarryC (here)
<< There should be a way to prove these claims. Because if you can cause events to occur according to whatever you believe are doing (which impacts the physical world) and can reproduce doing so reliably there should be a way to design a set of experiments which should make the case for what you are saying. >>

I am jumping into a complicated discussion here, but to me the above summarizes something important about the modern, conventional, rationalist-materialist paradigm. The preoccupation with double blind studies and reproducible results implies a universe where everything is mechanical and can be quantified. But what if everything doesn't work that way? We can all see evidence that many things are predictable and repeatable, at least to some extent. But so many things don't fit into this kind of framework. They are called anomalies, and usually just cast aside and ignored because they don't conveniently fit the model. It may very well be that the most events occur outside the reliable, Aristotelian universe where A is always A and two things cannot inhabit the same space at the same time.

The problem with this is that even if it is the case then that STILL is provable via the Scientific method. Even if we've got a huge amount of current scientific thought that was formed from certain erroneous conclusions, science as a self-correcting process offers the method to replacing it with more correct information. You just need to get your head fully around the idea you're trying to advance, and do the legwork to prove it via math/experimentation/etc. If you can generate enough data to back up what you say then eventually you will have to be taken seriously due to being more adept at explaining the universe in all its wonder.

As well not all Science is so "mechanical." Social sciences often revolve around mapping out correlating factors and attempting to find the ones that appear to predict certain behavior. It's not precise but it offers a window into possibly understanding the human mind and human development. It just usually seems that the people who attempt to espouse any scientific basis for what they are saying don't actually go the full Monty and attempt to refute everything at its source via the scientific method. Again, many people love to quote quantum mechanics like it was second nature but without understanding the math that goes into quantum mechanics it becomes trivial for your attempt to explain something to unintentionally go off-the-rails. This is why I think that even if science does have some gaping holes it demonstrates the process and rigor necessary to actually prove anything is definitively happening rather than us merely imagining it is happening because we want it to happen. Without any definitive process to guard against the myriad types of subjective bias or outright delusion I don't think any fruitful work can be done in obtaining a real understanding of anything.

[Avocadess]

Cobra gives a lot of very interesting details in this audio-oriented video (from July 3, 2012). Great stuff. Thank you, Cobra!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=iJtzX...layer_embedded

or (alternative link to same page):

http://alturl.com/c8b9r


REMINDER: Drake's Wednesday Internet Radio Show, Global Voice 2012, will air this evening 6:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Central Time (4:00 to 7:00pm Pacific, 7:00 to 10:00pm Eastern):

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/global-...e--wednesday-1

or (alternative link to same page):

http://alturl.com/qyrax


Wishing you the best day EVER..!!

Avocadess


******* And here I am reposting some encouraging astronomical interpretations from an astrologer:

"The article is entitled - 'Uranus Retrograde: The Collapse of Satan's Pyramid'. It originates from www.Tokenrock.com/blog (shortened version on Rumormill). It is far to long to post here but I will give a few quotes to let you know the trend of the article.

'Beginning July 13, the false empire that has been erected over humanity by those who serve evil and who rebel against God will experience a controlled demolition that will stunj and stagger those with the eyes for it. An onslaught of covert strikes will be dealt to them from beyond the boundary of space-time that will induce sudden catastrophies,malfunctions, and terminations of their efforts to enslave and destroy life on planet Earth. As many of their leaders fall voids of authority will allow for humanity to gain vantage points that will allow for the Light to overtake once dark territory. As this ancient battle continues wondrous cultural and evolutionary changes will enthrall the citizens of Earth. This retrograde, which ends December 13th, leads us to the doorstep of a new age. I welcome all who seek higher awareness about the momentous times in which we live to my humble interpretation of the 2012 Uranus retrograde in the House of Aries.

"The writer (Salvador Russo) continues with details of what he sees expiring over the next few months, with accompanying astrological indicators, with the final paragraph of this section concluding -

"'Expect to witness the rise of self-sustaining commjunities that decentralize power from those who have sought to obtain oppressive control. A growing sense of cultural self-reliance will rise along with easy-to-replicate systems, models, and processes that local governments will use to effectively and prosperously meet the needs of their constituents. These types of solutions will be exported and implemented in other locations with ease, like software being shared amongst computers. Technology will play an increasingly important role in the healing of society, the global economy, and the potentiation of mankind.

"There follows a piece on the entry of Saturn into Scorpio which occurs on October 5th (not printed on Rumormill) - which includes - 'Horrifying disclosures that will implicate the highest offices with the most heinous crimes will be a major transit theme...'.

"As an astrologer I found these articles very true to the astrological meaning of Uranus and Saturn in their respective transits, and the articles the best I have come across in a long while. The writer seems to me to be a very genuine and inspired person.

"My hope is that others who read this and have access to other forums and platforms might spread this around. I feel it would give us all a great lift of spirit at this time."

[from Noela]

[StarDust]

Thanks as always Avocadess!

[gripreaper]

Here's a little update, clarification, AND MORE!!! from Cobra's JUly 3rd Interview:

C: I have said many times before that all negative ET’s have been cleared out. They are not existing anymore. There are no Greys flying in UFO’s around, there are no Reptilians in the earth and no motherships, there are no Reptilian bases anywhere. This is gone completely. The only thing that remains is the Cabal. They are actually extraterrestrials , which have invaded this planet many lifetimes ago, and they keep reincarnating in the same positions of power. Apart from that we have the non-physical Archons, which have also invaded from other planets and are here like I would say ghosts on the interdimensional planes and maintaining this quarantine. There are no negative ET forces flying around in their mother ships or UFO’s. That is gone.

A: That is great to hear. Now do you also agree with some of the news that is coming out that there are different ET factions per continent on the planet?

C: In the Cabal yes. You have the Rothschilds faction, which is the Orion, I would say the Orion forces. You have the Rockefeller faction, which more the Draconians and you have the Jesuit faction, which is a mixture of Andromedans and Reptilians.

C: And they basically are headquartered in various parts of the world, is what you are saying?

C: Oh yes! The Rothschilds mostly control Europe and you have the Rockefellers, which mostly control the United States, and you have the Jesuits for the rest of the world

http://galacticconnection.com/cobra-...om-july-3-2012

So, this thread should be buzzing with excitement and a huge party taking place, with ALL the bad ET's gone! Where is everybody?

[Anchor]

Posted by gripreaper (here)
Where is everybody?

In most stories I read or was told, when the dragon was slain, the hero used to bring the head back to show everyone it was really done.

[gripreaper]

HERE FIRST HOUR TRANSCRIPT OF DRAKE SHOW RIGHT NOW

Boy, now this is really... Well, you'll see. Read it.

Dynamite news: Denise says we need to make the Canadian Story go viral against the Vatican.

Lady Dragon’s article has been picked up by Google, and no one is reporting this story except Lady Dragon. She is on top of the story, and she will be the first to know of any updates. Lady Dragon will make this go forward and with lady Dragon spearheading this effort; the elite won’t be able to put this story under the web.

Drake knows for a fact that the elite do not want certain information to come out.

Lady Dragon has news on Monsanto. She has a bill she is keeping her eye on which is very serious; with GMO seeds they will be able to plant their seeds no matter what. Drake asked her what the bill is, and Lady Dragon said she would put her people “on it” and find out what the bill number is.

Drake is telling us what people don’t understand. The shot heard around the world, the person who pulled the trigger is not really the person who pulled the trigger. It’s a form of psychology and reality too. The reality starts with the “Law of the Sea” which can be found at link:

http://www.heritage.org/research/all...egories=report

It limits the legal limitation of boundary and changes that, among other things. It disallows some of the present enterprises that use the sea, such as fishing, mining, and drilling, etcetera.

The United Nations small arms treaty: Drake read the whole thing today and it’s a mess. No semi automatic weapons. Local, national and international registration with the United Nations will be required. This stuff has been in the works since the 50’s.

Drake wants us to do an e-mail and phone blast to the UN and tell them how we feel. Everybody needs to call their representatives. Tell them their vote at the UN makes them treasonous.

Drake wants us to “hold our fire”. Our right to bear arms is being taken away. Now web sites are being shut down! We have a right to freedom of speech. They have been taking this away for some time. We need to wake up!

You need to call the pentagon and object. Call anyone you can think of and tell them what you think! The UN vote on the 27th will not go well. A lot of the militia’s have been itchy and have been cleaning their guns, and there are 3 million, or 10 million? Drake guarantee’s that these militia will not stand for confiscation. Drake hopes the military is listening! Drake has been cleaning his guns and making sure the clips are loaded.

Drake is suggesting, if any representatives are listening, that you vote against this UN resolution. This is curdling Drake’s milk. Cottage cheese is okay in some cases, but Drake has roto-rooters running through him right now and he’s upset the way veterans are being treated, after defending this country, now they want to take away our guns?

TPP. It is a corporate partnership, it’s NAFTA on steroids! It takes all rights and puts it under corporate dictatorship! This is posted on Drake’s website. That Monsanto rider bill where they can do whatever they want? Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) crawled out from under a rock and now they want to put us all under corporate dictatorship.

Drake explains a “knock knock” where you can take someone in a room and knock them off and not hear any sound outside. Drake says he bets Monsanto is paying for the bill with payoff to congress.

Come on you military, if you are listening. Make an arrest! Go, Go, GO !!! It needs to happen and it needs to happen soon. The “break-off” day is July 27th with the small arms treaty vote. The people I’m talking about are not going to sit down anymore. We’re talking experienced people who are doing experienced things. You really think a quarter of a million people cannot go snatch 500?

If they come to get my guns I’m going to go hunting. That’s all there is to it. If the military won’t do the job, then you’re irrelevant! Drake hopes and prays it does not come to this, but Drake does not see any alternative at this point.

Get ready for war.

Drake wants to take a break so he can calm down and asks Denise if she can play a song. She plays "We Are The World"

[gripreaper]

FROM LADY DRAGON WEBSITE:

Please Prepare for THE EVENT!

What is THE EVENT ?

THE EVENT is where you will see on your television a MASS ARREST of bankers, financials and other people including the bad aliens who have been working together in order to enslave humanity.

Yes, I said ALIENS.

There are good and there are bad aliens.

Welcome to your new reality

The Good Aliens have been working in tandem with Secret Sacred Societies in order to remove the bad aliens from this planet in order to free us from their enslavery.

For those who are new to this, if this is a shock to you, well that is peanut what I just said

When THE EVENT happens, many -- and I mean many -- people will fall off their chairs in total shock on how they have been lied to.

The horrible truth of what they have done to us will come to light.

This is why we have made this website, and this section is done in order to guide you to positive actions

ARRESTS ARE IMMINENT

The first thing to do is to prepare yourself in case of major disruptions.

Although disruptions are not forseen, it is better be prepared, just in case

Make sure you have food, water and anything else for at least 1 week.

Form an emergency group where you can help put the word out about the TRUTH.

When THE EVENT happens;

What to know

1. Bankers/Illuminati/Cabal/Government have been running the world and doing bad things.

2. White hats including old money, military, veterans, federal marshals, and local law officials are going to arrest them.

3. Media may say it’s martial law and try to spread panic, but the actions are lawful and benefit humanity.

4. International travel will be stopped for 3 days. Some facilities wired to explode will be off limits for safety.

What to do

1. The goal is to transition peacefully and safely. There will likely be disruptions in local travel, food supply, water supply, and electricity.

2. Make sure you have necessities for 72 hours and ideally 30 days.

3. Remain calm. Support the troops and law officers that are arresting thousands of criminals guilty of heinous crimes against us all. Research stories on the internet to assure yourself that the arresters are good and the arrestees are bad.

What not to do

1. You are going to find out that the cabal have done terrible things to you, your family, and humanity.

2. Don’t believe that every one of them is as guilty as the leaders.

3. Some were forced to act and were threatened with torture.

4. Do not panic.

5. Do not riot.

6. Do not run into a bank and start shooting people.

Drake gave the timeline on April 08, 2012 that THE EVENT will happen 30 to 45 days from that date; therefore, between May 08 and 23. The Timeline has been extended for a few weeks and explained by Drake while talking with LadyDragon.

http://www.fcm2012.com/event.html

[gripreaper]

COBRA FOR JULY 11, THE PLAN!!!!!!

This is supposed to be up any time now, as Lady Dragon has previewed it with her special connection with Cobra, and we should have it soon.

http://2012portal.blogspot.ca/

For those who prefer the audio version of "THE CAVALRY IS COMING!!!" here's the link:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iJtzXqyBjy4

[LarryC]

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)

Posted by LarryC (here)
<< There should be a way to prove these claims. Because if you can cause events to occur according to whatever you believe are doing (which impacts the physical world) and can reproduce doing so reliably there should be a way to design a set of experiments which should make the case for what you are saying. >>

I am jumping into a complicated discussion here, but to me the above summarizes something important about the modern, conventional, rationalist-materialist paradigm. The preoccupation with double blind studies and reproducible results implies a universe where everything is mechanical and can be quantified. But what if everything doesn't work that way? We can all see evidence that many things are predictable and repeatable, at least to some extent. But so many things don't fit into this kind of framework. They are called anomalies, and usually just cast aside and ignored because they don't conveniently fit the model. It may very well be that the most events occur outside the reliable, Aristotelian universe where A is always A and two things cannot inhabit the same space at the same time.

The problem with this is that even if it is the case then that STILL is provable via the Scientific method. Even if we've got a huge amount of current scientific thought that was formed from certain erroneous conclusions, science as a self-correcting process offers the method to replacing it with more correct information. You just need to get your head fully around the idea you're trying to advance, and do the legwork to prove it via math/experimentation/etc. If you can generate enough data to back up what you say then eventually you will have to be taken seriously due to being more adept at explaining the universe in all its wonder.

As well not all Science is so "mechanical." Social sciences often revolve around mapping out correlating factors and attempting to find the ones that appear to predict certain behavior. It's not precise but it offers a window into possibly understanding the human mind and human development. It just usually seems that the people who attempt to espouse any scientific basis for what they are saying don't actually go the full Monty and attempt to refute everything at its source via the scientific method. Again, many people love to quote quantum mechanics like it was second nature but without understanding the math that goes into quantum mechanics it becomes trivial for your attempt to explain something to unintentionally go off-the-rails. This is why I think that even if science does have some gaping holes it demonstrates the process and rigor necessary to actually prove anything is definitively happening rather than us merely imagining it is happening because we want it to happen. Without any definitive process to guard against the myriad types of subjective bias or outright delusion I don't think any fruitful work can be done in obtaining a real understanding of anything.

I agree that if the idealistic principles of science are followed, then it does indeed have a self-correcting mechanism. That's a really big IF in a world where science is almost inseparable from economics and politics. Yet, even beyond this, I think there is a realm where experimentation itself is limited. You can't quantify, for example, emotions, art, mystical experiences or dreams. You might be able to identify pathways, but you would never get the exact same experience twice, nor would you want to.

For example, a shaman might take a certain substance to induce a certain type of vision, and modern psychedelic researchers have done studies on the effects of these drugs. Yet the actual experiences are part of a realm that is beyond words or categories. This doesn't mean science has no practical value, which it obviously does.

<< Without any definitive process to guard against the myriad types of subjective bias or outright delusion I don't think any fruitful work can be done in obtaining a real understanding of anything. >>

Again, many experiences are subjective by nature, and even terms like delusion (or hallucination) are themselves biased, assuming that there's one objectively real REALITY. We can interact in an objective world, as it's useful in many ways, but we shouldn't assume that's all there is.

[the_vast_mystery]

Posted by LarryC (here)
I agree that if the idealistic principles of science are followed, then it does indeed have a self-correcting mechanism. That's a really big IF in a world where science is almost inseparable from economics and politics. Yet, even beyond this, I think there is a realm where experimentation itself is limited. You can't quantify, for example, emotions, art, mystical experiences or dreams. You might be able to identify pathways, but you would never get the exact same experience twice, nor would you want to.

I'd certainly agree but without mapping out first all of the pathways and narrowing down the deterministic aspects we can control for we never will be able to achieve a true and deeper understanding of those subjective experiences as well. Social sciences are set up that way, and I think it's probably the only way you can go about trying to figure people out. We're not machines but if we can root out all of the machine-like aspects then that enables us to also see quite clearly people for who they are rather than only taking a surface-look at what may or may not be them. Without that mapping we are left only to take wild guesses about as accurate as trying to hit an archery target blindfolded (after being spun around until dizzy.)

Posted by LarryC (here)
For example, a shaman might take a certain substance to induce a certain type of vision, and modern psychedelic researchers have done studies on the effects of these drugs. Yet the actual experiences are part of a realm that is beyond words or categories. This doesn't mean science has no practical value, which it obviously does.

Yes, but until we have a way of determining the frauds/charlatans in various mystical fields how much use those experiences have to the average person who might consider partaking in them is very limited. The problem isn't that a shaman goes into a trance, receives a vision and then translates that to whomever they went in for. It's that there are so many people who can convincingly pretend to be Shamans and do all of the above that there's simply no way to take the experience for what it is. We're left constantly trying to figure out who's lying and who's not. This is why I say that process is important, to get to those subjective experiences we first need to be able to map out who is definitely NOT having them so that we can build greater trust in those who do.

Posted by LarryC (here)
Again, many experiences are subjective by nature, and even terms like delusion (or hallucination) are themselves biased, assuming that there's one objectively real REALITY. We can interact in an objective world, as it's useful in many ways, but we shouldn't assume that's all there is.

Yes, I'll agree the terminology is still itself inexact and prone to misuse, and that's a problem. We have no clear definitions yet because we still can't sort out who's lying (to themselves or others) and who's not. We're getting there, we're starting to get a grasp on psychopathy for instance. Just not quite all the way. Once we can be sure that no one will be made a fool of, then the trust can be built.

[LarryC]

<< Yes, but until we have a way of determining the frauds/charlatans in various mystical fields how much use those experiences have to the average person who might consider partaking in them is very limited. The problem isn't that a shaman goes into a trance, receives a vision and then translates that to whomever they went in for. It's that there are so many people who can convincingly pretend to be Shamans and do all of the above that there's simply no way to take the experience for what it is. We're left constantly trying to figure out who's lying and who's not. This is why I say that process is important, to get to those subjective experiences we first need to be able to map out who is definitely NOT having them so that we can build greater trust in those who do.>>

The only real solution to this is to become our own shamans. That way we don't have to be so concerned about whether the experiences and statements of others are authentic or not.

[the_vast_mystery]

That would be nice, but to become "our own" shaman we'd first need to be 100% sure we were not lying to ourselves and that the person we found to teach us shamanism was not themselves lying in any way either. There is no way to establish trust because there is no definitive starting point where we can be sure we are partaking in an undistorted, correct way of going about it. I mean I can say that certain people (This forum has a few of them) obviously seem very genuine about their practice. However when it comes into the realm of forming definite conclusions my trust is only at best a gamble I'm taking because I'm still making any assessment of anyone based on the idea that:

1: I would know in any way who I could trust.
2: I am able to research correctly into shamanism
3: That I could use item 2 and 1 to determine a good shamanic instructor.

But the problem is the first two, is that it would be trivial for a myriad of circumstances to prevent me from ever being able to figure out individual trust on a personal level let alone be able to even judge the quality of an instructor in a practice I am not even sure I'm correctly acquainted with yet. Similarly I could have my research sabotaged by any number of subjective biases or simply not be competent at academic level research. Now, I'm certain I have some level of competency at those things but I am not certain the level of that competency. And it is because of that issue that I am able to be quite certain in absolute terms of only one thing: I am unable to judge in any way who would be right to learn from or what information regarding shamanism is accurate.

Therefore, my assessments of anyone else's abilities could be hopelessly flawed, and worse yet I might lack the metacognitive ability to realize my own assessment is hopelessly flawed.

Because of that it can be considered that it would be impossible for me to even learn shamanism because I would never be able to be certain of any instruction I had received because there was never any one point I could be certain neither I nor the other person was in any way being deceptive or reiterating information that was based on past deception. (such as distorted teachings that could be passed down for instance.)

I might form ideas and attempt to convince myself of their certainty to establish a faux-trust, but that trust would be based on the illusion that I had in all certainty established and verified the accuracy of all material; as well as that I was fully mentally capable of making that assessment. (Which of course for a start is impossible if you're the newbie learning from someone else.) So really, without figuring out who's lying beforehand there's just no certain way to do it.

I could still take a gamble, like everyone else. But I would rather not gamble on such important matters.