The Bible

[greybeard]

Come on guys give it a break.

From a higher perspective every opinion and thought is flawed because it comes from the perception that there is an individual-- that perception is limited but its ok at the level of duality.
So everyone is correct from their perspective and incorrect at a higher level of awareness.
"Wear the world like a loose garment."

Unconditional love accepts were the seeming individual is, not seeing them as right or wrong.--- that's work in progress in my case.
Nothing is right nor wrong till thinking makes it so.
In non duality everything is just accepted as it is.
Life, which is what we are, is just expressing and experiencing through all the persona’s

Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water-- after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--- the difference after enlightenment is that nothing is taken personally, The story of me carries on but there is no identification with it.

That is freedom from misery as pointed to by the Buddha and every other enlightened teacher.

Chris

[Beren]

Posted by observer (here)

Posted by Beren (here)
Sorry for Observer but he think by his replies here that his findings got him kinda elevated than the rest, in reality he continued judging other opinions save his own.
What made him think that he's "got" it and others didn't --I don't know...

A sign that someone has a pride problem is adamantly refusing other opinion and calling names upon others who does not agree with him.

That's silly and a sign of non progress.

If one doesn't agree with you and your understanding and your opinion about the things you found - then it must be that other one is ,limited, a slave, reptile or such...
this is nonsense !

This is Ego first hand.
Hence I recommend Greybeard's thread regarding Ego for a start.

No harsh feelings just plain observation of what is happening.

Beren, my brother,

Ego is your interpretation. At some time in the future, I may have more to say about Ego within the context of Greybeard's thread, but for now the issue is the point of your above quoted comment.

Evidence is what I'm all about. Ego has nothing to do with it.

On a website designed to break-down the walls of false doctrine, one cannot make claims of 'absolute truth' on faith based belief systems. If one persists in this course, one is proselytize, which is a direct violation of this forum's rules.

My function as an observer is to simply make discoveries of evidence and report that evidence. This reporting turned into a debate, long ago in another thread with the former member.

The only "name-calling" that I can be accuse of, here within this debate, was the use of the term "delusional".

Delusional: "a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of a psychiatric condition".

Since there are members making comments within this thread who have consistently refused to even look at the evidence, while continuing to make comments in support of the Bible, the use of the term 'delusional' can - in no way - be construed as being indicative of "name calling". Using the term 'delusional', is a statement of fact.

If what I'm reporting is shattering the walls of your personal paradigm, than I can only have compassion for you. Eventually, each one of us will have to look at the evidence, and deal with the consequences of what this evidence is suggesting - whether within this lifetime, or in the after-life.

Do not make false accusations regarding my intentions, or my attitude. I make no claim of superiority. I'm simply the messenger of what seems 'very bad news' to some of the members commenting within this thread.

Observer my brother

I will not engage with your perceptions of who is delusional. After all it is YOUR perception.
Evidences that you found are not enough for me since I found in my life experiences , studying and travels around the world more evidences about what I speak and MY perceptions and realizations about Bible and truth.

Everybody has perceptions but raising above them you find unity and oneness. Now when you look from that angle you see the happenings throughout history and this current theme of Bible from totally different viewpoint and meaning.

But despite all this who I am to tell you what to think?

It's your God given right of free will.

What I am saying is that evidences against and pro Bible are as two big mountains. Each is significant and very present here and now for all and each is or seems truthful.
Trouble arise when one group claims superiority against the other without clear upper stream.

What gives your evidences and long research any credit ?
What gives my research any credit?

The very underlying spirit and energy it carries.

Thing is whom to trust in all this racket and noise about this theme - Bible. By raising up from higher point of view we see that it is again up to US AND OUR CHOICES regarding this matter.
By our energy and power we can enable that evidences against or pro Bible stand true.
This explains our own power vested by God to us.

It is we who decide how to interpret the God whom is spirit thus can be anyone and anything it want to be.

It is wise for us to realize this fact before we jump into wagon of "my proofs are better than yours". It is wise to do this since there are only two spirits - Love or Fear.

Embracing one as your originator force determines where you will end up and what kind of experiences will you experience.

If you embrace spirit of fear you will experience Bible as horrifying thing and all connected with this.
If you embrace spirit of Love you will experience Bible as beautiful gift of God to humanity.

But again emphases is upon YOU or ME -- not God ... God gave us quantum field of possible experiences . It's on us what we will choose to experience.


I see in Bible more treasures than in many works ever written.
But if I didn't embraced the spirit of Love , I would not be able to find those treasures in it.

I learned great deal of human psychology by studying it.

It's about your motivation of what you want to find in it.
Sure you find lots of different things in it but most of all you find a choice. Human choice to do good or evil and its repercussions.

Does that makes this book evil?
Does this makes God evil because God gave us free will and quantum field to explore and play in vastness of eternity and universe?

Remember the story about knife that I wrote few pages ago?

P.S.

Avalon is not yours or mine to put rules what is to be talked about as long as there is respect in the conversation.
Truth be told despite disagreeing with RedeZra on some points and his style and tone ,I didn't saw that he was calling for any thread to be shut down as you did or for any members to be banned as you did (insinuated).
Now I think you are a good man Observer and an honest one that's why I call you brother. I just ask you please to rise above even your construction and things you found and take a peek with me from height along the way ,upon this marvels we are about to explore in this journey.
In the end we will see how glorious experiences we will have!

[Beren]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Come on guys give it a break.

From a higher perspective every opinion and thought is flawed because it comes from the perception that there is an individual-- that perception is limited but its ok at the level of duality.
So everyone is correct from their perspective and incorrect at a higher level of awareness.
"Wear the world like a loose garment."

Unconditional love accepts were the seeming individual is, not seeing them as right or wrong.--- that's work in progress in my case.
Nothing is right nor wrong till thinking makes it so.
In non duality everything is just accepted as it is.
Life, which is what we are, is just expressing and experiencing through all the persona’s

Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water-- after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--- the difference after enlightenment is that nothing is taken personally, The story of me carries on but there is no identification with it.

That is freedom from misery as pointed to by the Buddha and every other enlightened teacher.

Chris

Exactly Chris!

Raise and shine ! Simple as that.

[Fred Steeves]

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

Anyone have the time?

[Billy]

Posted by billyji (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)

so instead of reading the Bible myself

and pray about it


you suggest i go read another's take on the Bible

so that he can twist the truths to me about what is written in the Book


don't you know that cursed is the man who put his trust in another man ?

did not the Holy spirit tell you that

The bible states that not everything was written within the bible and that you should seek outside the bible for that which is hidden and you will find it.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: [Math 7:7]

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25;]

John 21:25 suggests that there is still more to know about Him. At least for St. John the Apostle, there was more that he needed to teach which was not recorded in the Bible:

I had much to write you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face. [3 John 13-14]

And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down." [Rev 10.4]

He replied, "Go, Daniel. These words are to be kept secret and sealed until the end times. [Dan 12:9]

"The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future." [Dan 8:26]

Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come." [ Dan 10:14 ]

But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." [Dan 12:4 ]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Red it is quite clear in the bible that not all the truths are written down, and one should expand their knowledge outside bible. otherwise you become blinkered within the controlled system. think outside the box my friend.

peace

Although the thread was intended to discuss the bible, Which is one of my many joys in life, the bible has some little gems of truths within it, I found that Red would never engage in a discussion, even when bible refrences were given they were ignored and omitted in any his reply's. The post above was the latest example.




Be at peace everyone and enjoy the game of lfe.

[crested-duck]

Yes Fred I know what time it is---It's time for everyone to look at their "BELIEFS" and realize they are just that-beliefs.. And seriously ask yourself why you believe what you do. What is the real true history of mankind, who and why it is currently polluted like it is, and how do we each go about accepting everyone as a equeal in the scheme of conscious awareness & love in action. We are all the same, from the same source, eventually returning to that source. Debate, knowledge,evolution, it all fits together. I'm very much enjoying this roller coaster ride at this moment, but there have been times I've had enough of it, but I know it's just a ride I'm on for now......Rob

[Billy]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

Anyone have the time?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=V6jxxagVEO4

[kreagle]

Posted by heyokah (here)
Dear Mr. Kreagle,

When "this is all from your heart", then even I, whom you insist insinuating to be an atheist, prefer your Bible quotes....

Personal attacks on other forum members is against the forum rules !

heyokah,

Good day to you,.....my "non-atheist" friend. You've made an issue out of this, more than once,.....and I've "fully explained" why I arrived at that "deduction". Furthermore I've apologized "twice" for my "supposed error". Do you wish to have another? If so, then you now have your "third" apology. Whether you would like to accept blame, or not, you certainly shoulder the "majority" of this "misunderstanding", in that, you led me down a "path of assumption" with your "article" that did nothing but "defend atheism". (Post # 1446,....if you need to "refresh your memory") I've even tried, unsuccessfully, to ask you whether you are, indeed, an atheist,....to which you "still have yet to fully answer". A simple,.....yes, I am,.....OR.......no, I'm not,......would completely clear this up, would it not? If you are an atheist,.....I judge you not, I promise! A close associate of mine is an atheist,....and we get along very, very well. As a matter-of-fact he candidly told me,....."at least you're not a jerk,....like most others are!". That,....really,..... meant something to me!

As for your claim of a "personal attack" on observer,......I'm once again baffled at how you have arrived at that,......and certainly wouldn't begin to try to figure out your rationale as to such. You do greatly err in your assessment, my dear.

It's pretty evident to all of us, that you and observer, especially, have a "totally different path" that you wish to embark upon and follow. At no time have I indicated that I would not "honor your decisions, respectively". It's both of your lives to live as you each see fit,.....and completely your decision to make. I want to genuinely take this "opportunity" to wish you both the best,.....along with God's blessings in abundance,.....and I sincerely mean that.

I have this "final passage" that I would like to share with "both" of you.......


Philippians 2:5-15
King James Version (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;



It should be duly noted, in verse 12 above, that the "ultimate responsibility lies squarely upon our own individual shoulders" to seek out, and find, our own salvation,......doesn't it? Decisions we make today, in this current life, will indeed have "eternal consequences",......good or bad,.....for every last one of us. Be sure that you are "completely comfortable" with the final choice you make, my friends.


At "this point" I really feel it necessary to conclude my dialogue with "both of you", in that I don't feel that anything "constructive" can be produced or obtained by continuing them. If something "develops in the future" that should prove otherwise, then perhaps our talks can continue.


I "rested" my case,......with observer.

and now......


I rest it with you, also.


With much "heartfelt love to you both",........kreagle

[Kristin]

Hello again, I see two things happening here: First we have those here who are discussing the Bible within the context of the OP: "let the Bible speak to inform and explore what the Book says about our origin history and purpose"

These folks are having a respectful conversation within the context of a belief system. The conversation is about the nuances of the belief system in practice. This could apply the same if it was a conversation about Buddhism, Sufi, or Wiccan beliefs. The participants are here due to a familiarity of the subject matter. Some may be practicing Christians, others may be fringe Bible readers. Regardless, it is about Dogma and religious practice.

Now the second thing that is going on is that the thread is being derailed by those who from the outside do not believe in the entire premiss of the Bible as a foundation. This is absolutely your right to believe... HOWEVER, this is not the intention of this thread. I suggest that a new thread is started which is about the "Question of the Bible" and then those who wish to engage in peaceful conversation about the content are allowed to do so without further derailment.

Understood? People have a right to their own belief systems, and they also have a right to have a conversation about them. People also have a right to think that the Bible as a whole is a pure fantasy and not anything more then clever parables and myth; and they have a right to discuss that as well...

If it is important to have that DEBATE between the two factions and a DEBATE is agreed to by both sides... then by all means continue... but I suggest that another thread "Bible Debate" would be appropriate, as there are people here who just want to talk about God and Jesus and who really were not looking for a debate in the first place.

Let's try to be understanding enough of others to allow them to have their conversation. I INVITE any of you who wish to DEBATE the Bible as a foundation to do so on another thread. Debate is healthy, eye opening, and can create change of opinion, beliefs, and help the world see itself for what it is; especially when engaged in respectfully.

From the heart,
Kristin

[kreagle]

Kristin,

Thank you, so much, for your "voice of reason". I've already discussed this "exact matter and content", just yesterday, via a PM with another member. What you have suggested is "along the same lines" of what I discussed with my "friend" here at Avalon. Certainly this just "validates" what I was already feeling concerning this thread. Thank you, again, for "confirming in my mind" what Avalon "really stands for".


Your friend and servant,...........kreagle

[GCS1103]

Thank you, Kristin, for that very diplomatic post. Perhaps those people that are convinced they hold "the truth", would be much happier starting their own thread where they can post their beliefs, without interference from those of us who genuinely enjoy being at this place without being subject to a scolding by those with different opinions. Healthy debate is fine, but when things become personal, the subject devolves into nothing more than an attack on one another. That's a waste of good energy and is totally non-productive.

I hope those members who have contributed to this thread with whatever they believe in their heart, but also with kind understanding that we all hold certain beliefs in our hearts too, continue to stay here. There are some very wise people here- on all sides of the discussion- and I sure would miss not being able to continue to read some of their posts.

[HORIZONS]

A new web site I found today for research and study is Early Christian Writings - I thought I would share this as some of you might be interested in it for research and as a study aid to the Bible.

The purpose of this web site is to set out all of the Christian writings that are believed to have been written in the first and second centuries, as well as a few selected from the early third. I have also included non-Christian documents that may have special bearing on the study of early Christianity in order to make this web site a comprehensive sourcebook. I have provided links to English translations for all of these documents. When available, the work has also been provided in the original language, usually Greek. I have also provided information and scholarly opinion regarding the background, authorship, dating, and provenance of these documents. These comments are intended to provide an introduction.
I did not want to follow the common scheme of organizing early Christian documents into the canon and apocrypha, which is simply anachronistic. Because it is the most intuitive and useful, I have ordered them based on one possible chronological scheme. My judgments concerning the authenticity and dating of the documents concerned are made in the best tradition of biblical scholarship. Nevertheless, the ordering is almost certainly wrong in some part. To provide some bearings, a range of probable dating is provided for the scheme, but this range of dating can be disputed. All dates are approximate. An alphabetical listing is also provided as an easier way to find a specific text.

[apokalypse]

one thing i just don't get which on my mind for 4 months now..If God loves us so much then why he send us to hell for eternity for all of those bad things that we done? past months i have heard about the Reincarnation and how we go through the life review which make much more sense...

going to be interesting at the next family party having this talk about Hell ...my family is very religious catholic and i know first thing they going to say I'm crazy or losing my faith.

[GarethBKK]

The allegory in the Bible, and all sacred texts (Quran, Dead Sea Scrolls, Vedas, etc.), never ceases to amaze me. I don't have a religion but I tend to see in all sacred texts a link to ancient knowledge. And, the more I read the more I see commonality.

I was reading a book only yesterday that linked the seven days of creation (6 working plus one of rest) to musical resonance. The 'seven days' allegorises an octave. Fascinating. My dislike of dogma certainly doesn't prevent me reading the Bible.

[HORIZONS]

Posted by apokalypse (here)
one thing i just don't get which on my mind for 4 months now..If God loves us so much then why he send us to hell for eternity for all of those bad things that we done? past months i have heard about the Reincarnation and how we go through the life review which make much more sense...

going to be interesting at the next family party having this talk about Hell ...my family is very religious catholic and i know first thing they going to say I'm crazy or losing my faith.

Not all Christians embrace the notion of endless torment - there are other interpretations of hell and what happens in the afterlife than what the mainstream Christian church teaches.

Also see post 1620 for another view about hell.

[HORIZONS]

Posted by GarethBKK (here)
The allegory in the Bible, and all sacred texts (Quran, Dead Sea Scrolls, Vedas, etc.), never ceases to amaze me. I don't have a religion but I tend to see in all sacred texts a link to ancient knowledge. And, the more I read the more I see commonality.

I was reading a book only yesterday that linked the seven days of creation (6 working plus one of rest) to musical resonance. The 'seven days' allegorises an octave. Fascinating. My dislike of dogma certainly doesn't prevent me reading the Bible.

Yes, I too have seen and studied multiple layers of understanding in the Bible. For instance, every name of person or city, every color mentioned, every object, etc. has a meaning behind it. But you have to study these things out, and few are willing to do so. People get caught up about the wording in the Bible, but what is important is the spiritual meaning behind those words in the Bible - that is the question that should be asked. For example: A good metaphysical Bible dictionary is good for this type of study - and as I stated in the onset of this thread - the Bible is like an onion, as it has many layers of understanding to it; but you have to be willing to peal it to get to the heart of it, and you may shed a tear or two in the process.

My first post - 101

The Bible is like an onion - there are layers and layers of understanding.
There is the literal interpretation -
the historical -
the prophetical -
the new age-
the spiritual-
the esoteric-
the metaphysical-
the mystical-
and several other modalities of interpretation based upon what church system one is immersed in.

Many people have tried to change what the Bible states, but in the realm of Spirit the meaning never changes - but one must be in a spiritual state to understand this - for "the natural man receives NOT the things of God." Hence the reason for all the misunderstanding concerning the Bible, as it can be used for both good and evil.

[crested-duck]

Here is one of the best I've seen in a while , here's knowledge for those unafraid of it:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Bcw5YpeTd4I

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=X5Lv1hHDwr8

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=oDEPjpewB9c

[Billy]

Posted by apokalypse (here)
one thing i just don't get which on my mind for 4 months now..If God loves us so much then why he send us to hell for eternity for all of those bad things that we done? past months i have heard about the Reincarnation and how we go through the life review which make much more sense...

going to be interesting at the next family party having this talk about Hell ...my family is very religious catholic and i know first thing they going to say I'm crazy or losing my faith.

Be gentle with them. Ask them what they Think of the pope announcing that ET's exist and they are our family.
what do they think about the vatican announcing in 2008 that Jesus celebrated the Essene passover on the Tuesday and not the Jewish passover on a Thursday.
If they want to disguss hell. ask them what they think becomes of priests who abuse young children.

Lots of topics to disguss without them thinking you are crazy.

[kreagle]

***************The "Appearance" of JESUS***************

I have supplied a website that has "various depictions" of what Jesus "might have looked like". You may recognize "many of them",.....perhaps what you have personally seen in growing up,....maybe even "hanging on the wall" at your grandmother's home. You might like to view several to see if you recognize any of them,.......if they "jog your memory", etc.

Obviously, "all" of these renditions are simply an artists perception "relayed and displayed on canvas" for us to view,.....in that....., no "known Polaroid of him" seems to exist. (Ha!, Ha!)

http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/J...t_Pictures.htm

http://www.goodsalt.com/search/jesus.html


My question to each of you,.....is "what role, if any, did the actual "appearance of Jesus" play into why He was "accepted and/or rejected" during His earthly ministry?

In your mind,.....what do you think Jesus "actually looked like"? In your "individual replies",....you might would like to post the "version" that you most generally accept to be true. You might even like to explain why you feel this way.

I look forward to "your views",.......I will "follow up" with mine, also.


Love and Peace,.............kreagle

[HORIZONS]

Kreagle, I will answer you with a quote from Isaiah 53:

"1 Who has believed our message? To whom has the LORD's power been revealed? 2 He grew up in his presence like a young tree, like a root out of dry ground. He had no form or majesty that would make us look at him. He had nothing in his appearance that would make us desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by people. He was a man of sorrows, familiar with suffering. He was despised like one from whom people turn their faces, and we didn't consider him to be worth anything. 4 He certainly has taken upon himself our suffering and carried our sorrows, but we thought that God had wounded him, beat him, and punished him. 5 He was wounded for our rebellious acts. He was crushed for our sins. He was punished so that we could have peace, and we received healing from his wounds. 6 We have all strayed like sheep. Each one of us has turned to go his own way, and the LORD has laid all our sins on him. 7 He was abused and punished, but he didn't open his mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. He was like a sheep that is silent when its wool is cut off. He didn't open his mouth. 8 He was arrested, taken away, and judged. Who would have thought that he would be removed from the world? He was killed because of my people's rebellion. 9 He was placed in a tomb with the wicked. He was put there with the rich when he died, although he had done nothing violent and had never spoken a lie. 10 Yet, it was the LORD's will to crush him with suffering. When the LORD has made his life a sacrifice for our wrongdoings, he will see his descendants for many days. The will of the LORD will succeed through him. 11 He will see and be satisfied because of his suffering. My righteous servant will acquit many people because of what he has learned [through suffering]. He will carry their sins as a burden. 12 So I will give him a share among the mighty, and he will divide the prize with the strong, because he poured out his life in death and he was counted with sinners. He carried the sins of many. He intercedes for those who are rebellious."