The Sun Of Late

[Rocky_Shorz]

back to sun stuff...

someone mentioned earlier about energy affecting our Sun and I'd like to share this with all of you...

when I first started watching Stereo Before charts, it had a small break at the beginning of each day, now you can see it is lasting for hours...



what is causing these waves that erase energy?

how is it affecting us and the Sun...

[Hervé]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
However, even in that particular case, a change in the earth tilt generates a corresponding change in the sun inclination and, with it, a change of locations for where the sun rises and sets on the horizon (see post # 103) and Manhattanhenge would miss its date in occurring later (decreased tilt) or earlier (increased tilt).

No matter how many times you say the above it's not going to be true.

Hardly any of the above in your post that I have not quoted is factual, either.
[...]

Unfortunately, it is obviously and demonstrably true and I am perplexed as to the reason why you fail to see it.

I think I originally mentioned the shadow shifting aspect, which you have now agreed with.

It's not a matter of agreeing with what you wrote since it's, so-called, common sense.

Now investigate that "shadow" notion a little further and it may dawn on you that the change of the sun inclination would automatically change the position of the sun setting on the horizon for a set date and therefore "Manhattanhenge" would not occur on the computed date since the sun wouldn't set in the alignment of New York streets anymore.

[...]

You have shifted your argument from your first point with which we began our discussion:

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
Had any significant tilt of the Earth's axis occurred and "Manhattanhenge" (see post # 42 above) would have missed its date and happened on a different day (setting earlier or later since the true latitude would have changed).

Unwarranted accusation since there are no shifts of argument or straw man on my part, I remained on the same course as quoted above.

The above is all we have been discussing. That was your original point. Which was wrong. It would not have happened on a different day given the conditions and earth-sun geometry as stated in the above posts by myself, Cartomancer and DeDukshyn unless other conditions were met, specifically having to do with the orbit of earth around the sun or a change in the earth's rotation on its axis, becoming faster or slower.

[...]

That's still to be proven.

As far as I am concerned, what I previously posted and which I'll exemplify below, clearly demonstrate my point:

In the above illustration and for its given latitude, let's take, for the sake of clarity and simplicity, that the day is 21st June at noon and the earth axis gets tilted north by 230. Now, for that same day of 21st june, the sun trajectory would be the equivalent of the one for March/September of an "un-tilted" earth... sunset and sunrise positions have changed... yes or no?

So, the streets aligned with the direction "observer-sunset" for 21st June are now completely out of alignment with the new -- tilted earth -- observer-sunset direction for March/September... yes or no?

Tilt the earth axis out of its current position and the whole sun trajectory shifts out of alignment for a specific date. It's that simple and cannot be clearer than that.

The only exception would be if the tilt occurs parallel to the ecliptic plane for that date... but everything else would be out of place.

[DeDukshyn]

Just to clarify. There is no "calculated day" for Manhattenhenge. Look at the stats in the Wikipedia link I provided -- the day(s) has varied from year to year -- possibly due to the Chandler wobble? (which in itself is always changing). Of course this doens't mean the earth has tilted but I just want to clear up that misconception. Things are always changing - I found this out in trying to research this for my 3D model (sorry it's still coming, I don't have much extra time, and now I just realized my 3D program has a built in sun and coordinant system - that might be easier to to utilize than the insane manual setup I am trying to do ... we'll see).

370,000,000 years ago a year was exactly 400 days long. It also appears that many of these little changes along the way were nearly instant (relatively speaking - a decade could be an "instant" in these scales).

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
back to sun stuff...

someone mentioned earlier about energy affecting our Sun and I'd like to share this with all of you...

when I first started watching Stereo Before charts, it had a small break at the beginning of each day, now you can see it is lasting for hours...



what is causing these waves that erase energy?

how is it affecting us and the Sun...

This interesting. So the proton rains start immediately after an outburst from the sun .. good to know. Not sure what to make of the gaps, right around the midnight hours every day ....

[Rocky_Shorz]

for those who heard me say careful of irritability during these inbound energy waves...

best friends short fuses...

we're red lining now and we have a full moon on top of it...

try to keep the howling down by sending rain to dying crops...

[Cartomancer]

Amer Zo. What you are calculating is when the correct solar orientation will match Manhattanhenge. This would be on a different day than the solstices and equinox. The date your alignment would happen would change but that would not change the actual days the solstice and equinox occurred unless the relative angle of the axial tilt in relation to the sun changes.

If a polar shift occurs then all of the monuments on earth that are oriented to true north would no longer measure these events accurately. That does not mean the date of those events would change unless the length of the year or day were changed somehow. Manhattanhenge would simply record the dates the sun rose in the right spot on a different day. This does not mean the actual dates of the solstice or equinox would change. It means Manhattanhenge would no longer be an accurate measuring device. The true north pole can change without changing the axial tilt. There are scenarios that would facilitate what you are saying but only if the above parameters are changed.

If you suspect the earths axis has changed compare the pole star to something you know is oriented to true north. The alignment would be significantly different. This would change the angle of solar events and not the day on which they occurred.

[CD7]

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
for those who heard me say careful of irritability during these inbound energy waves...

best friends short fuses...

we're red lining now and we have a full moon on top of it...

try to keep the howling down by sending rain to dying crops...

Feeling a bit snappy...

[WhiteFeather]

Very hot today here in The East Coast, The sun was most powerful in the afternoon, I felt a little drained again. Extremely tired at night. Sorta feels like a narcolepsy attack,...... if you will.

In Metaphoric Terms: I've been Sleeping at night like a baby quite often of late, much like a great breastfeeding from a healthy bosom.

And to interject further, I have been saving money by not purchasing Melatonin.

[CD7]

@whitefeather...LOL!!!!! ditto on the tired and drained this afternoon...but tht comment made me smile Thanks!

[Hervé]

Posted by Cartomancer (here)
Amer Zo. What you are calculating is when the correct solar orientation will match Manhattanhenge. This would be on a different day than the solstices and equinox. The date your alignment would happen would change but that would not change the actual days the solstice and equinox occurred unless the relative angle of the axial tilt in relation to the sun changes.

If a polar shift occurs then all of the monuments on earth that are oriented to true north would no longer measure these events accurately. That does not mean the date of those events would change unless the length of the year or day were changed somehow. Manhattanhenge would simply record the dates the sun rose in the right spot on a different day. This does not mean the actual dates of the solstice or equinox would change. It means Manhattanhenge would no longer be an accurate measuring device.
.

That's my whole point!!!

What is so incomprehensible about what I wrote?

The DATE would change! Therefore "Manhattanhenge" would miss its date:

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
Had any significant tilt of the Earth's axis occurred and "Manhattanhenge" (see post # 42 above) would have missed its date and happened on a different day (setting earlier or later since the true latitude would have changed).

I didn't write anything about solstices nor equinoxes in that regard, only that with an axial shift those would occur in a different spot of the Zodiac. Look for the culprit who deviated the discussion towards that sector and which I called as a straw man.

My posts were to demonstrate that a change of the earth axis tilt implies a change in the sun inclination and therefore a change of the spots where the sun rises and sets, hence the date of said alignment. Unfortunately I couldn't find any diagrams other than equinox or solstice ones to illustrate that point.

If you suspect the earths axis has changed compare the pole star to something you know is oriented to true north. The alignment would be significantly different. This would change the angle of solar events and not the day on which they occurred

You are assumming irrelevant premises for my whole point and so did Rakhyt. "Manhattanhenge" occurring on its predicted date is sufficient evidence that no significant axial shift/tilt occurred. I maintain these two days are predicted/computed in advance for people from all over the place showing up with their photogarphic gears to catch those moments.

[Hervé]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Just to clarify. There is no "calculated day" for Manhattenhenge. Look at the stats in the Wikipedia link I provided -- the day(s) has varied from year to year -- possibly due to the Chandler wobble? (which in itself is always changing). Of course this doens't mean the earth has tilted but I just want to clear up that misconception. Things are always changing - I found this out in trying to research this for my 3D model (sorry it's still coming, I don't have much extra time, and now I just realized my 3D program has a built in sun and coordinant system - that might be easier to to utilize than the insane manual setup I am trying to do ... we'll see).

370,000,000 years ago a year was exactly 400 days long. It also appears that many of these little changes along the way were nearly instant (relatively speaking - a decade could be an "instant" in these scales).

This may help:

From: http://ask.metafilter.com/191235/Manhattanhenge

Manhattanhenge
July 20, 2011 8:33 AM Subscribe

How do I calculate when the sun will rise directly over a particular landmark?
I saw this article today about "Manhattanhenge" and thought it was awesome.
There's a prominent east-west axis in my hometown that terminates at an important building. It seems logical that the sun will rise directly behind the building at some point.
How do I calculate about what day this happens?
Thanks!
posted by jefficator


The Photographer's Ephemeris will do this, I believe.
posted by jquinby at 8:38 AM on July 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


If the axis is due east-west, the sun will rise directly behind the builiding on the equinoxes.
If it's not quite true east-west, you need to find out how far off (and which way) it is from the true direction, and convert that to an azimuth (due east = 90°; south of east is greater than 90°, and north of east is less than 90°). Once you have the azimuth, you can use this sunrise and sunset calculator, with the option to show the azimuth. Find the dates on which the azimuth of sunrise equals the azimuth of the building.
I did the calculation for downtown Toronto in this AskMe a few years back.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:46 AM on July 20, 2011


To dovetail off of DevilsAdvocate, you can measure the bearing of a street with Google Earth's ruler tool. I just used it (and the sunrise/sunset calculator) to discover that the sun will set on the west end of our town's main street on 9/12.
posted by jquinby at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2011

[...]

Hadn't heard the term Manhattanhenge before. It was posted to the blue ages ago as Gotham Equinox.
posted by etc. at 9:21 AM on July 20, 2011

[...]

As DevilsAdvocate said, be careful of altitude. It has a huge effect on sunrise/set timing - far more sensitive than latitude.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:42 AM on July 20, 2011

[DeDukshyn]

Ok I have some preliminary 3D model results. (But no visuals yet).

I animated the earth revolving around the sun one full revolution, 36525 frames - one frame for each 1/10th of a day (one frame per every 2.4 hours) the extra 25 frames are due to leap years). I set up a "manhattenhenge" style rows of buildings running east-west (note the real Manhattenhenge is not exactly east-west which is why it occurs 2X per summer solstice - it doesn't happen on the solstice because the street is not east-west, but for demonstration purposes it matters not at all)

I set a camera at one end of the buildings facing west and set no tilt of earths axis then ran through the frames - frame 1 represents the summer solstice in this example. Without any tilt on the earths axis the "DeDukshynhenge" occured at frame 27.

After that I set the earth's axis tilt to 23.4 degrees as it really is and ran through the frames again -- "DeDukshynhenge" occurred at exactly frame 27. Preliminary results shows that Rahkyt (et al) retains status as a know-it-all


I'll get some renders and maybe an anim for you all to see.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Just to clarify. There is no "calculated day" for Manhattenhenge. Look at the stats in the Wikipedia link I provided -- the day(s) has varied from year to year -- possibly due to the Chandler wobble? (which in itself is always changing). Of course this doens't mean the earth has tilted but I just want to clear up that misconception. Things are always changing - I found this out in trying to research this for my 3D model (sorry it's still coming, I don't have much extra time, and now I just realized my 3D program has a built in sun and coordinant system - that might be easier to to utilize than the insane manual setup I am trying to do ... we'll see).

370,000,000 years ago a year was exactly 400 days long. It also appears that many of these little changes along the way were nearly instant (relatively speaking - a decade could be an "instant" in these scales).

This may help:

From: http://ask.metafilter.com/191235/Manhattanhenge

Manhattanhenge
July 20, 2011 8:33 AM Subscribe

How do I calculate when the sun will rise directly over a particular landmark?
I saw this article today about "Manhattanhenge" and thought it was awesome.
There's a prominent east-west axis in my hometown that terminates at an important building. It seems logical that the sun will rise directly behind the building at some point.
How do I calculate about what day this happens?
Thanks!
posted by jefficator


The Photographer's Ephemeris will do this, I believe.
posted by jquinby at 8:38 AM on July 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


If the axis is due east-west, the sun will rise directly behind the builiding on the equinoxes.
If it's not quite true east-west, you need to find out how far off (and which way) it is from the true direction, and convert that to an azimuth (due east = 90°; south of east is greater than 90°, and north of east is less than 90°). Once you have the azimuth, you can use this sunrise and sunset calculator, with the option to show the azimuth. Find the dates on which the azimuth of sunrise equals the azimuth of the building.
I did the calculation for downtown Toronto in this AskMe a few years back.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:46 AM on July 20, 2011


To dovetail off of DevilsAdvocate, you can measure the bearing of a street with Google Earth's ruler tool. I just used it (and the sunrise/sunset calculator) to discover that the sun will set on the west end of our town's main street on 9/12.
posted by jquinby at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2011

[...]

Hadn't heard the term Manhattanhenge before. It was posted to the blue ages ago as Gotham Equinox.
posted by etc. at 9:21 AM on July 20, 2011

[...]

As DevilsAdvocate said, be careful of altitude. It has a huge effect on sunrise/set timing - far more sensitive than latitude.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:42 AM on July 20, 2011

No that didn't help at all because what I was referring to was that the dates in 2011 and in 2012 are different -- not because there are 2 dates in the same year - that is obviously just because the streets aren't east-west.

[Hervé]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Ok I have some preliminary 3D model results. (But no visuals yet).

I animated the earth revolving around the sun one full revolution, 36525 frames - one frame for each 1/10th of a day (one frame per every 2.4 hours) the extra 25 frames are due to leap years). I set up a "manhattenhenge" style rows of buildings running east-west (note the real Manhattenhenge is not exactly east-west which is why it occurs 2X per summer solstice - it doesn't happen on the solstice because the street is not east-west, but for demonstration purposes it matters not at all)

I set a camera at one end of the buildings facing west and set no tilt of earths axis then ran through the frames - frame 1 represents the summer solstice in this example. Without any tilt on the earths axis the "DeDukshynhenge" occured at frame 27.

After that I set the earth's axis tilt to 23.4 degrees as it really is and ran through the frames again -- "DeDukshynhenge" occurred at exactly frame 27. Preliminary results shows that Rahkyt retains his status as a know-it-all

[...]

Good.


I am missing something somewhere: at 1 frame = 2.4 hours, starting at summer solstice, how do you manage to get an east-west sun rise/set at frame 27, that is 64.8 hours later? That's 2 days and 16.8 hours later. To me, that doesn't compute with the illustration of post # 122.

Which brings me to the question of how the "east-west" line is represented: is it the line sunrise-sunset? Or is it the line sunrise spot-horizon center (latitude-longitude intersection)-sunset spot?

Anyway good go.

No that didn't help because what I was referring to was that the dates in 2011 and in 2012 are different -- not because there are 2 dates in the same year - that is obviously just because the streets aren't east-west.

True, however, the questions and answers tell you how these photographers and amateurs get their dates for their "Cityhenge." Meaning... computed in advance.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Ok I have some preliminary 3D model results. (But no visuals yet).

I animated the earth revolving around the sun one full revolution, 36525 frames - one frame for each 1/10th of a day (one frame per every 2.4 hours) the extra 25 frames are due to leap years). I set up a "manhattenhenge" style rows of buildings running east-west (note the real Manhattenhenge is not exactly east-west which is why it occurs 2X per summer solstice - it doesn't happen on the solstice because the street is not east-west, but for demonstration purposes it matters not at all)

I set a camera at one end of the buildings facing west and set no tilt of earths axis then ran through the frames - frame 1 represents the summer solstice in this example. Without any tilt on the earths axis the "DeDukshynhenge" occured at frame 27.

After that I set the earth's axis tilt to 23.4 degrees as it really is and ran through the frames again -- "DeDukshynhenge" occurred at exactly frame 27. Preliminary results shows that Rahkyt retains his status as a know-it-all

[...]

Good.


I am missing something somewhere: at 1 frame = 2.4 hours, starting at summer solstice, how do you manage to get an east-west sun rise/set at frame 27, that is 64.8 hours later? That's 2 days and 16.8 hours later. To me, that doesn't compute with the illustration of post # 122.

Which brings me to the question of how the "east-west" line is represented: is it the line sunrise-sunset? Or is it the line sunrise spot-horizon center (latitude-longitude intersection)-sunset spot?

Anyway good go.

No that didn't help because what I was referring to was that the dates in 2011 and in 2012 are different -- not because there are 2 dates in the same year - that is obviously just because the streets aren't east-west.

True, however, the questions and answers tell you how these photographers and amateurs get their dates for their "Cityhenge." Meaning... computed in advance.

None of that matters, as you will see, and as the real "manhattenhenge" clearly shows. Perhaps my east west is not perfect? But it is far closer to east-west than the 29 degrees of the manhattenhenge so clearly that point is irrelevant. I did try to very roughly incorporate the "chandler effect" or whatever it is called, and my "dedukshynhenge" is not on the equator - I imagine that holds some relevance, but after seeing the results, I immediately determined it is not relevant -- I can shift the axis 50 degrees and it does not affect the dates. My camera battery crapped out but I have some screen caps I'll post right away ... to help with this.

[DeDukshyn]

Image 1: Here is the overall view of what I have done, there are four different viewports - each with a different view of the model. The bottom right viewport shows "Dedukshynhenge" as a couple rows of buildings in roughly an east west orientation around texas and florida -- it is big but scale matter little in this example. There is a camera at the wrong end of the buildings, so our "dedukshynhenge" is in the morning sunrise as opposed to the sunset -- again this mattters not for this demonstration; the camera view is represented in viewport 3 (bottom left).

Image 2: Here is frame 27 where we get a "dedukshynhenge" effect of the rising sun in the bottom left viewport. There is still no tilt on the earth for this image, but it matters not as you will see.

Image 3: If you look at viewport 2, or if you can see that I have the "rotate" function selected (near top left - yellow selected button), and that the degrees on the "Y" channel (near bottom, 2/3rds over highlighted blue) is 23.4 -- this represents the real tilt of the earth. Now notice n the slider at bottom left that we are still at frame 27, yet I have tilted the axis from 0 to 23.4 degrees and "DeDukshynhenge" looks almost the same in the bottom left viewport.

Image 4: Look to the points indicated above -- I have increased axial tilt to 50 degrees! And guess what? "DeDukshynhenge" still occurs on frame 27 - indicating that no matter the axial tilt - these events still occur on roughly the same day. Mine all occurred within the same 2.4 hour period so to have different dates from 2011 and 2012 -- someone has some serious explaining to do (not Amzer Zo, but why two different days for manhattenhenge when my model adjusted tilt to 50 degrees, no variation in timing occurred ... ? something to think about ...

BTW I will charge my camera battery and play the animation out live and record it so you all can see more clearly.

EDIT!: keep in mind we are talking about sunset / sunrise phenomenon so the orientation of my axis has to be in this orientation at sunset or sunrise; I say this because orientation is a part of this and perhaps what is confusing Amzer Zo ... we are only talking about the sun on horizon effect -- this is important. What you can see as a difference between image 3 and image 4 is the direction of the sun travel -- it is very different between those two images as indicated by the white trajectory line, but the timing and location of the "henge effect" is unaffected by axial tilt.

And finally: to add some DeDukshyn Nerdness ... if the axial tilt did increase, the immediate effect due to rotational inertia would be a slowed precession ... something that may require an extra "age" to keep the unit of measure of an "age" to 2100 years while the precession increased to ~28,000 from 26,000 years. Likely that's over everyone's head ....

[DeDukshyn]

There's a potential flaw I just saw in my diagrams .. one Canadian looney for anyone who can spot it it ... Amzer .. this is your oppurtunity Hint -- it is only visible in the graphic; and may only be applicable in a truly east-west orientation ... I'll give two loonies to Rahkyt if he can spot it ... it's an issue with how I set up my animation and is recognizable between how I said it was set up and how it appears on the graphics I posted ... anyone??

Later Edit: Here's a big hint .. perpendicular ... or parallel (bigger hint: upper right viewport)???

[DeDukshyn]

True, however, the questions and answers tell you how these photographers and amateurs get their dates for their "Cityhenge." Meaning... computed in advance.

Which goes to show how "approximate" this all is ... -- especially if the day can be off by a whole day ,,,

[Rocky_Shorz]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
back to sun stuff...

someone mentioned earlier about energy affecting our Sun and I'd like to share this with all of you...

when I first started watching Stereo Before charts, it had a small break at the beginning of each day, now you can see it is lasting for hours...



what is causing these waves that erase energy?

how is it affecting us and the Sun...

This interesting. So the proton rains start immediately after an outburst from the sun .. good to know. Not sure what to make of the gaps, right around the midnight hours every day ....

it gets better... Solar Streams that blow out from the Coronal holes, they are electrons, which is passing us now with a Proton wave/CME from the Sunflare hitting at the same time...

I thought the pulses were related to making the flares pop as they swung towards us, but the breaks just keep getting longer...

maybe these waves are what is breaking down the Suns Magetosphere that surrounds us at the edge of our Galaxy

if they break down the magnetic shield, could they also absorb energy?

[Rocky_Shorz]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

True, however, the questions and answers tell you how these photographers and amateurs get their dates for their "Cityhenge." Meaning... computed in advance.

Which goes to show how "approximate" this all is ... -- especially if the day can be off by a whole day ,,,

stonehenge faces the red moon, it's center stone facing two massive pillars it rises up between...

I'd be curious if they still line up the same today as when they were built.

midnight, the last night of the Mayan Calendar is the night the red moon rises...

[Swan]

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
[stonehenge faces the red moon, it's center stone facing two massive pillars it rises up between...

I'd be curious if they still line up the same today as when they were built.

midnight, the last night of the Mayan Calendar is the night the red moon rises...

I´m sorry if this is off topic, but what exactly causes a red moon?

Many years ago the moon was large and red one night, and that night I had my first OBE.