Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

[Jenci]

Posted by another bob (here)

~Chogyam Trungpa


We must allow ourselves to be disappointed, which means the surrendering of me-ness, my achievement. We would like to watch ourselves attain enlightenment, watch our disciples celebrating, worshipping, throwing flowers at us, with miracles and earthquakes occurring and gods and angels singing and so forth. This never happens. The attainment of enlightenment from ego's point of view is extreme death, the death of self, the death of me and mine, the death of the watcher. It is the ultimate and final disappointment. Treading the spiritual path is painful. It is a constant unmasking, peeling off of layer after layer of masks. It involves insult after insult.

Treading the spiritual path is painful. Full of disappointments not only to the seeker but to others who know the seeker.

You come to realise that you have to give up all ideas that you have about enlightenment. You have to give up the idea that it will make you a better person - more loving, kind, generous, compassionate.

You have to give up the idea that it will enable you to create and manifest the good things in your life and enable peace and good health.

You have to give up the idea that you will liked and approved of by those around us whether they be close relationships, family, friends or just acquaintances. You have to give up the idea that you can even keep those people in your life.

When you have given up these ideas of what enlightenment is about, you will find you have acquired some more along the way and you will be disappointed by those who had led you to believe that enlightenment was about "something"......and disappointed in yourself for believing in what they had said.

...and it will go on like this; disappointment and loss until there is nothing left, like Chogyam Trungpa says, just like a grain of sand.

Loss.
Nothing.
No-one.

Not even the idea "Poor me, all that is left is nothing, just this grain of sand" Even that has to go as it is seen that the Me-ness is so desperate to survive it it will cling to being an insignificant speck or grain of sand.

Yet despite the trail of disappointments and loss, there is a longing for more loss. Something just craves the grain of sand.


It's one thing to know and understand what all of life is about - birth, death, incarnation, awakening, oneness, higher self or whatever......and that would be a great place to rest,to hang out, to enjoy life, to enjoy the dream, wouldn't it?

But it is another thing to be standing in the midst of a torrent of a river, nearing its source and knowing there is not a damn thing you can do about it - you're going to get swept away.



Jeanette

[greybeard]

Well Jeanette all credit to you, you really put it as it is in this experience--- mind you that is the story of me, in my case.

All belief systems, all concepts-- everything that you thought was, you must go-- no longing for a different me, an enlightened me.

Destiny pulls one to enlightenment--- choice you dont have in this.
Yogananda called this "The magnificent obsession"

Chris

[another bob]

Posted by Jenci (here)
Yet despite the trail of disappointments and loss, there is a longing for more loss. Something just craves the grain of sand.

Right, that is the "homing instinct", our red carpet to freedom!

Thanks for your perseverance, Sister -- all benefit when one stays true to the call!

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Posted by Jenci (here)



Treading the spiritual path is painful. Full of disappointments not only to the seeker but to others who know the seeker.

You come to realise that you have to give up all ideas that you have about enlightenment. You have to give up the idea that it will make you a better person - more loving, kind, generous, compassionate.

You have to give up the idea that it will enable you to create and manifest the good things in your life and enable peace and good health.

You have to give up the idea that you will liked and approved of by those around us whether they be close relationships, family, friends or just acquaintances. You have to give up the idea that you can even keep those people in your life.

When you have given up these ideas of what enlightenment is about, you will find you have acquired some more along the way and you will be disappointed by those who had led you to believe that enlightenment was about "something"......and disappointed in yourself for believing in what they had said.

...and it will go on like this; disappointment and loss until there is nothing left, like Chogyam Trungpa says, just like a grain of sand.

Loss.
Nothing.
No-one.

Not even the idea "Poor me, all that is left is nothing, just this grain of sand" Even that has to go as it is seen that the Me-ness is so desperate to survive it it will cling to being an insignificant speck or grain of sand.

Yet despite the trail of disappointments and loss, there is a longing for more loss. Something just craves the grain of sand.


It's one thing to know and understand what all of life is about - birth, death, incarnation, awakening, oneness, higher self or whatever......and that would be a great place to rest,to hang out, to enjoy life, to enjoy the dream, wouldn't it?

But it is another thing to be standing in the midst of a torrent of a river, nearing its source and knowing there is not a damn thing you can do about it - you're going to get swept away.



Jeanette

I have to say, I was stunned when I read your post. Once again I'm reminded not to assume that my experience is somewhat the same as others. My experience has been, thus far, so different. Please don't think I'm negating or judging your experience - and perhaps I'm not fully understanding your post. In fact I hesitated to post this as I didn't want it too sound as if I thought I was better, more evolved, etc. than others. But I did want the forum to see another perspective.

My experience: Treading the spiritual path, reading voraciously, learning through my experiences, applying and re-applying what I learned - has brought me from a life that was painful, discordant and emotionally chaotic - a life in which I had made myself a prisoner of my own Hellish thoughts - to a very peaceful place.

Yes, I had to give up ideas of what enlightenment is about, they morphed many times through the years. Yes, loss of many beliefs, but never disappointment in the losing, but a freedom from the chains of what my soul knew wasn't serving me.

You said for you it's been:

Loss
Nothing
No-one

For me it has been:

Loss
Nothing
Everyone

When people say: Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water
After enlightenment chop wood, carry water

I always think: Yes, but after enlightenment I chop wood and carry water with a lighter heart and a big smile on my face and with no resentment for having do to those things.

There are so many different spokes on this wheel we call life, but I believe they will eventually bring all to the peaceful hub. Perhaps not in this lifetime, but sometime. Please don't think I'm saying I know everything - I don't; I still learn daily. I still have ups and downs, but the peaks and valleys are much slighter, my emotional pendulum quite stable, my joy deeper and not connected to anyone or anything. And I attribute this all to what I have learned on the trail.

[greybeard]

Thanks for your post Ba-ba-Ra.

With me there have been short periods of disappointment but then full acceptance of what is.
I have never lost a friend or partner through spirituality--- some have drifted away probably because that.s normal in life, I still count them as my friends.
I don't discuss spiritual with those who are not interested now.
Kindness happens because that's my nature but I dont identify with it as such.
My mind is mainly silent the commentator has departed.
There is a peace and contentment regardless of what happens.
Humour arises--- sometimes inappropriately---I have a challenge taking life seriously.
I can identify with Jeanette in many ways-- tho most of the ebb and flow of spiritual progress has gone.

Love chris

[another bob]

Posted by Ba-ba-Ra (here)
You said for you it's been:

Loss
Nothing
No-one

For me it has been:

Loss
Nothing
Everyone

“When I see
I am nothing,
that is wisdom.

When I see
I am everything,
that is love.

Between these two
my life moves.”

Nisargadatta

[Jenci]

Posted by Ba-ba-Ra (here)

Posted by Jenci (here)



Treading the spiritual path is painful. Full of disappointments not only to the seeker but to others who know the seeker.

You come to realise that you have to give up all ideas that you have about enlightenment. You have to give up the idea that it will make you a better person - more loving, kind, generous, compassionate.

You have to give up the idea that it will enable you to create and manifest the good things in your life and enable peace and good health.

You have to give up the idea that you will liked and approved of by those around us whether they be close relationships, family, friends or just acquaintances. You have to give up the idea that you can even keep those people in your life.

When you have given up these ideas of what enlightenment is about, you will find you have acquired some more along the way and you will be disappointed by those who had led you to believe that enlightenment was about "something"......and disappointed in yourself for believing in what they had said.

...and it will go on like this; disappointment and loss until there is nothing left, like Chogyam Trungpa says, just like a grain of sand.

Loss.
Nothing.
No-one.

Not even the idea "Poor me, all that is left is nothing, just this grain of sand" Even that has to go as it is seen that the Me-ness is so desperate to survive it it will cling to being an insignificant speck or grain of sand.

Yet despite the trail of disappointments and loss, there is a longing for more loss. Something just craves the grain of sand.


It's one thing to know and understand what all of life is about - birth, death, incarnation, awakening, oneness, higher self or whatever......and that would be a great place to rest,to hang out, to enjoy life, to enjoy the dream, wouldn't it?

But it is another thing to be standing in the midst of a torrent of a river, nearing its source and knowing there is not a damn thing you can do about it - you're going to get swept away.



Jeanette

I have to say, I was stunned when I read your post. Once again I'm reminded not to assume that my experience is somewhat the same as others. My experience has been, thus far, so different. Please don't think I'm negating or judging your experience - and perhaps I'm not fully understanding your post. In fact I hesitated to post this as I didn't want it too sound as if I thought I was better, more evolved, etc. than others. But I did want the forum to see another perspective.

My experience: Treading the spiritual path, reading voraciously, learning through my experiences, applying and re-applying what I learned - has brought me from a life that was painful, discordant and emotionally chaotic - a life in which I had made myself a prisoner of my own Hellish thoughts - to a very peaceful place.

Yes, I had to give up ideas of what enlightenment is about, they morphed many times through the years. Yes, loss of many beliefs, but never disappointment in the losing, but a freedom from the chains of what my soul knew wasn't serving me.

You said for you it's been:

Loss
Nothing
No-one

For me it has been:

Loss
Nothing
Everyone

When people say: Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water
After enlightenment chop wood, carry water

I always think: Yes, but after enlightenment I chop wood and carry water with a lighter heart and a big smile on my face and with no resentment for having do to those things.

There are so many different spokes on this wheel we call life, but I believe they will eventually bring all to the peaceful hub. Perhaps not in this lifetime, but sometime. Please don't think I'm saying I know everything - I don't; I still learn daily. I still have ups and downs, but the peaks and valleys are much slighter, my emotional pendulum quite stable, my joy deeper and not connected to anyone or anything. And I attribute this all to what I have learned on the trail.

Hi Ba-ba-ra and thanks for your post.....it's all good to share experiences

The experience of the spiritual path being painful is not unique. I was responding to a post from anotherbob quoting Chogyam Trungpa saying the same. The terms “dark night of the soul” and “caught in the tiger’s mouth” are commonly used and were coined as phrases to describe this painful and difficult experience.

I have read a number of teachings and listened to experiences of people who have also described similar. I quoted Mooji the other day saying “few people can stand it” https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...nd-inspiration.


So I am not alone in this and have at times taken comfort in this. I speak now for the benefit of others who may be feeling this painful squeeze and thinking that something has gone wrong on the spiritual path. It hasn't.....

If I go back three years and look at my life before spirituality and after, it has immeasurably improved. The pain, the misery, the loneliness, the self-destruction have all gone. The problems that I had are gone.

I am no longer disturbed by “moods”. I could tell a story about how "Jeanette" has been transformed on the spiritual path and is very grateful for the suffering of old being relieved.

But comparing the life as it was and the life as it is now, is just comparing the story of “Jeanette” with a before and an after. It’s still a story of “Jeanette”. I can see that the new and improved “Jeanette” is just as much of an illusion as the old, disturbed “Jeanette”.

When I talk about the painful spiritual path I am not talking about the progression from old Jeanette to new Jeanette I am talking about something which is much deeper in terms of existential terms of disregarding everything that I am not, including the whole story of “Jeanette”.

Now seeing that “Jeanette” and everything I perceive in the world is illusion has been fantastic from a point of view of enjoying life. For a while it was a cool place to hang out. Life lost its seriousness and I got to enjoy the ‘play’ ....I even got to enjoy playing at being “Jeanette” but understanding/seeing/knowing that it is an illusion is not the same as embodiment of that realisation.

There’s a grasping in the gut which says “I exist as me” and when that still happens while there is an opposite realisation that it is all illusion, there is a conflict which creates discomfort.

The more of “me” that I have discarded, the more sensitive I have become to that grasping. The instinct to return home just becomes stronger and there’s nothing for me to do now, just surrender.

Although in that surrender, I seem to be upsetting, disappointing and letting down other people and the list is growing longer.

You see, once upon a time I was sold the idea that enlightenment would mean that I would stop upsetting, disappointing and letting people down. I want my money back


Jeanette

[Jenci]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Destiny pulls one to enlightenment--- choice you dont have in this.
Yogananda called this "The magnificent obsession"

Chris

I used to think that my alcoholism was my lesson in life but I have learned that it was just the beginning. I tried to quit drinking for 10 years before I realised that I had no choice but to drink. It seems though that losing the power of choice was a valuable lesson to learn.

So here I am yet again. No choice. Nothing to do but surrender to it.

There is nothing to do.
Just be. Do nothing.
Be.
No climbing mountains and sitting in caves. I do not even say: ‘be yourself’, since you do not know yourself. Just be.

~Nisargadatta

[Eram]

Wow!!

This last page is becoming a treasure of insights and personal experiences of the path of enlightenment.

So interesting to read about the difference in experience between Ba-ba-Ra and jenci.
One thing that immediately came to mind was.... might the difference have something to do with the heart and how open it is in general in that person?
I say this because my path (which is very fresh and shortly started) is also a bit like Jenci describes. Most of the days are painful etc. , but along the way there is a growing awareness and it has it's own attraction.
There are days that there is some sort of bliss, sometimes even with the gut releasing it's grasping etc, but even then I witness in myself that my heart is not as open as I see it in some other people.

[another bob]

There is a particular paradox about Awakening:

For one thing, it is not always the blissful experience some expect it will be, based on popular lore. In fact, it often reveals to us in a stark and uncompromising fashion just why we chose to remain asleep for so long.

"Waking up" implies the recognition that such awareness must now be embodied, or incarnated, in the way we act and behave with each other in the world of space and time. That is what "awakened functioning" is all about. There are no longer any excuses for behaving unconsciously. Insight must be grounded in functioning, otherwise, it stays in the head, rather than making its way to the heart and gut.

At the same time, "waking up" also yields the recognition that "there is nothing to do", or more to the point, there is no doer. This is the difficult part of realization -- to discard the sense of doer-ship, let go, and "let God". It's the very sense of personal doer-ship that sabotages even profound "spiritual" experiences, where the mind adds a "me and mine" to the functioning, re-enforcing the sense of a separate and enduring self.

Spiritual maturity begins to dawn when we are willing to question our most cherished religious beliefs, assumptions, and presumed identities. When our love of Truth is such that even our most closely held notions and concepts about the nature of ourselves and existence can be submitted to honest and probing inquiry, then we become available at last to Awakening Grace.

Until then, we typically drift along in a dreamy sense of un-inspected security, at the mercy of whatever conditioning filters are operative in the body/mind (based upon prior association and interpretation of perception). In Buddhism, for example, this is called The Wheel, and it spins us through innumerable dreamy births and deaths unceasingly until the fabric of the dream itself begins to wear thin, and then there is the possibility of Seeing.

Of course, in the dream there are worlds to be saved, people at war, all manner of catastrophes and delights, and an unlimited number of seeming advances and retreats, and the wheel keeps on spinning, and the Dreamer keeps dreaming, and sometimes we seem to float above our dream bodies into some subtler variation on the dream, and fly through dream tunnels into majestic and comforting realms of light and beauty, or into perpetual hell realms of misery and despair, but never once stopping to wonder:

"Is this TRUE?"

Never once stopping to pull aside the curtain and unveil the Wizard at last, because the nature of Oz is so seductive, and those poppy fields are so very potent, and the last thing anybody really wants is to Awaken, despite all protests to the contrary, for to Awaken entails walking off the cliff of consensus reality and flinging oneself into the Unknown, and that is a terrifying prospect indeed!

Consequently, most would rather go back to sleep, to cuddle up in the comfortable blankets of illusion, and somewhere in the remote distance there is a Call, but in our accumulated congestion of dreaminess it is so easy to dismiss, until one day the truth can no longer be ignored, and the sunlight just floods through our little bedroom windows, stripping all the blankets off and exposing our nakedness, and then we are really in for it!

[Jenci]

Posted by another bob (here)
“When I see
I am nothing,
that is wisdom.

When I see
I am everything,
that is love.

Between these two
my life moves.”

Nisargadatta

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZvrNnaXwy6Q

source:https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZvrNn...feature=relmfu

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by greybeard (here)
Destiny pulls one to enlightenment--- choice you dont have in this.
Yogananda called this "The magnificent obsession"

Chris

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qji7ZvRj65w

[another bob]

I highly recommend the 4 DVD box set from Wolinsky, for anyone who resonates with Sri Nisargadatta's teachings :

http://netinetifilms.com/films-iamthatiam-box.shtml

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by another bob (here)
until one day the truth can no longer be ignored, and the sunlight just floods through our little bedroom windows, stripping all the blankets off and exposing our nakedness, and then we are really in for it!

Wow, there does seem to be a new dynamic at work on this last page. Every post I'm reading with awe. Yes Bob, it is nice to sleep in late, but if we press that snooze alarm one too many times, there are other, more drastic ways of getting us out of bed.(LOL)

Interesting how tossing our fate to the four winds, and stepping off the edge of that proverbial cliff, is such a welcome relief. I mean hell, why not? Everything else we tried was a miserable failure right? I no longer need to worry about what to "do" about it, it just starts happening. Here's a for instance: Just in the last year or less, I simply started to know, that I needed to forget everything I thought I knew. Everything! Whew, tall order.

What started out seeming like a monumental, if not impossible task, is actually beginning to become somewhat enjoyable. For starters, there is no hurry, because there is no time. And the task is more like casually pulling weeds from your overgrown garden on a beautiful spring day. Each little weed that supposedly belonged there is asked: "Do you belong here?" Or: "Are you true"?

The progress is not seen really weed by weed, but the occassional glance back, where the garden is now fresh, breathing, and alive again, tells the story. And you don't have to pull weeds all the time either. It's not a 9-5 requirement, and there are other things that demand our attention as well. But, you are also getting rather curious about how the finished product is going to look. Always the balancing act.

[another bob]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
The progress is not seen really weed by weed, but the occassional glance back, where the garden is now fresh, breathing, and alive again, tells the story. And you don't have to pull weeds all the time either. It's not a 9-5 requirement, and there are other things that demand our attention as well. But, you are also getting rather curious about how the finished product is going to look. Always the balancing act.

In the conventional waking state, it's typical to measure ourselves in terms of past and present, and then to project our development, or evolution, into the future. Indeed, we can become quite impressed with ourselves, and all the mountains we've climbed and obstacles surmounted on our road to perfect happiness, peace, and enlightenment. Conversely, we may become somewhat dismayed and depressed about our seeming lack of progress, and so re-double our efforts to "make good".

However, when we enter into the dream state at night, all of our carefully detailed plans and notions about our "progress" evaporate, as if the person who harbored them never existed. Still, whatever dramas we may be entertaining in our dream state quickly fade into the ethers upon awakening in the morning, and though we may momentarily ponder our dream scenarios, they nevertheless have little if any impact on our "normal" waking consciousness. Rather, we return to our sense of personal continuity, complete with measuring, time, and schemes of evolution, convinced that we are this person appearing in the waking state.

Our Friend Ramana Maharshi made an interesting observation regarding these perceptions:

In saying "I had a dream; I was in deep sleep; I am awake", you must admit that you were there in all the three states. That makes it clear that you were there all the time. If you remain as you are now, you are in the wakeful state; this becomes hidden in the dream state; and the dream state disappears when you are in deep sleep. You were there then, you are there now, and you are there all the times. The three states come and go, but you are always there.
It is like a cinema. The screen is always there but several types of pictures appear on the screen and then disappear. Nothing sticks to the screen. Similarly, you remain your own Self in all the three states. If you know that, the three states will not trouble you, just as the pictures that appear on the screen do not stick to it.
On the screen, you sometimes see a huge ocean with endless waves; that disappears. Another time, you see fire spreading all around; that too disappears. The screen is there on both occasions. Did the screen get wet with the water or did it get burned by the fire? Nothing affected the screen. In the same way, the things that happen during the wakeful, dream and sleep states do not affect you at all; you remain your own Self.

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Love the sharing and acceptance of each other's thoughts and experiences on this thread. It is quite a lovely WOW! Fred.

I'm feeling that for most of us, while we understand this world is an illusion, we don't know exactly how (or perhaps are afraid to try) to wake up from it. Either way, we're here. So on the one hand, from my perspective, this thread has two parallel discussions weaving through it. One, the living within the illusion. The other the knowing there is something beyond the illusion, which we understand somewhat conceptually, but aren't yet able to access (except perhaps for some brief moments - and in truth we don't know if those moments are yet just another part of this illusion.

I have grappled with this for some time. What I've come to realize is this: (Disclaimer: what I realize could change in a moment's notice). I believe we're all aware - as Shakespeare said - that the illusion world is a stage and we're all player's playing a role. This time one of us is playing the alcoholic role, or the rapist role, or the good-kid or easy life role. Next time we might try another role. While Wolinsky (see videos above ) says we really don't have choice, and I agree with him - I also feel that's in the awakened state (which most of us haven't achieved). In the illusion we still have choice. And the deeper in the illusion we are, the more choice we have. I hope you can stay with me here because I'm having trouble getting this into words.

IMO as we learn to make our lives within the illusion better, by the choices that we make in the illusion, we become closer to the place and the recognition where there are no choices. Once we loosen our attachment to the form and the role we're playing in this lifetime and step out of the drama of it, we're begin to stir in our sleep. Each choice thereafter makes this role we've chosen a little less painful, a little more fuzzy, a little less addictive - until we finally get there. But so many are still addicted to the role, to wanting to prove they can be successful in this world or to trying to find their soul mate, or just the roller coaster of the drama. As much as they say they hate the valleys, they're not willing to give up the peaks. And that is okay; one will stay on the roller coaster until they're ready to get off, all the while talking about that 'other place'. If that's the case, as Bill Hicks has said: You might as well enjoy the ride.

I feel that my role is twofold. To help folks find enjoyment while we're stuck here. AND to explore ways to awaken from the illusion.

Now I know there are those that will say having the pain within the illusion is a good thing as it is a teaching mechanism - and this is true. But I believe there is an easier way to learn. I also see where some get so deep within the pain that the forget the lesson and just keep bringing the pain forward. In those cases the pain body becomes an entity, with a life of it's own - and it needs more and more pain in order to live. Eckhart Tolle has a good description of this in his book "The New Earth". I believe the understanding of this is important to anyone finding themselves in that place. Love to all, Barbara

[another bob]

Posted by another bob (here)

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
The progress is not seen really weed by weed, but the occassional glance back, where the garden is now fresh, breathing, and alive again, tells the story. And you don't have to pull weeds all the time either. It's not a 9-5 requirement, and there are other things that demand our attention as well. But, you are also getting rather curious about how the finished product is going to look. Always the balancing act.

In the conventional waking state, it's typical to measure ourselves in terms of past and present, and then to project our development, or evolution, into the future. Indeed, we can become quite impressed with ourselves, and all the mountains we've climbed and obstacles surmounted on our road to perfect happiness, peace, and enlightenment. Conversely, we may become somewhat dismayed and depressed about our seeming lack of progress, and so re-double our efforts to "make good" and free ourselves of the illusion.

However, when we enter into the dream state at night, all of our carefully detailed plans and notions about our "progress" evaporate, as if the person who harbored them never existed. Still, whatever dramas we may be entertaining in our dream state quickly fade into the ethers upon awakening in the morning, and though we may momentarily ponder our dream scenarios, they nevertheless have little if any impact on our "normal" waking consciousness. Rather, we return to our sense of personal continuity, complete with measuring, time, and schemes of evolution, convinced that we are this person appearing in the waking state, the one making the effort to free themselves from the illusion.

Our Friend Ramana Maharshi made an interesting observation regarding these perceptions:

In saying "I had a dream; I was in deep sleep; I am awake", you must admit that you were there in all the three states. That makes it clear that you were there all the time. If you remain as you are now, you are in the wakeful state; this becomes hidden in the dream state; and the dream state disappears when you are in deep sleep. You were there then, you are there now, and you are there all the times. The three states come and go, but you are always there.
It is like a cinema. The screen is always there but several types of pictures appear on the screen and then disappear. Nothing sticks to the screen. Similarly, you remain your own Self in all the three states. If you know that, the three states will not trouble you, just as the pictures that appear on the screen do not stick to it.
On the screen, you sometimes see a huge ocean with endless waves; that disappears. Another time, you see fire spreading all around; that too disappears. The screen is there on both occasions. Did the screen get wet with the water or did it get burned by the fire? Nothing affected the screen. In the same way, the things that happen during the wakeful, dream and sleep states do not affect you at all; you remain your own Self.

Consequently, from the “Self” position – pure awareness itself – all three states can be recognized as manifestations of the illusion of reality, and in a kind of cosmic twist of irony, the enthusiastic one who would make some sort of progress in freeing themselves from the illusion turns out to be part of that very illusion.

Conversely, the one who has never actually been implicated by the illusion born of the three states turns out to be who and what we really are – our primordial identity. That’s why the awakening ones will laugh!

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Ba-ba-Ra (here)
I'm feeling that for most of us, while we understand this world is an illusion, we don't know exactly how (or perhaps are afraid to try) to wake up from it.

A good way to start is to stop.

Yes, just stop granting reality to the unreal.

[Eram]

Posted by Jenci (here)

I used to think that my alcoholism was my lesson in life but I have learned that it was just the beginning. I tried to quit drinking for 10 years before I realised that I had no choice but to drink. It seems though that losing the power of choice was a valuable lesson to learn.

So here I am yet again. No choice. Nothing to do but surrender to it.

Hi Jenci,

Thanks for bringing this up Jeanette and since you brought this up voluntary, I hope that you don't mind me asking questions about this.
It certainly is a subject that touches something that I have problems understanding with.

First of all:
Do you still drink these days or where you talking about it in the past tense?
Would you mind to elaborate about you having no choice but to drink? How does that work?

I've heard that addictions are not to be seen as something to get rid of on this path.
Well I guess there are several ways of seeing this probably, but it sure is hard to grasp when you picture that with drugs that will destroy the body fast like crocodile or sniffing glue.

There is someone here on the forum who uses the path of enlightenment and NLP at the same time. He says it has done wonders for himself and loved ones of his.
In some way this seems weird to me, because this path is all about letting go of wanting to change the experience isn't it?

Eckhart Tolle says in his book, 'The Power of Now':
When the here and now is getting unbearable, there are 3 things you can do.
1. Extract yourself from that situation.
2. Change the situation.
3. Surrender to the situation.
Do it now and take full responsibility for the consequences, he says.


I quit drinking 8 months ago and I did it with 2 videos from bashar.
He talks about parallel worlds and that each of us exists in all the other parallel worlds. The easiest way yo quit an addiction is to make contact with the part of you that never used the stuff you are addicted to. Weird as it may sound, it did the trick for me. I even don't like the effects that alcohol has on me any more.
Though I must admit that I don't like having in the house still, which tells me there are still hooks in it.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=hxMIfXaN1Gs

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=JqR4HAyzE3E

I have a personality that gets addicted to many things very easily (watching tv, computer games, reading, sweets, alcohol, gambling to name a few from the past) and I am finding out more about it every day. how it works and how and why I use these addictions to flee from the now.
It's hard for me to understand why we must not seek to get rid of addictions that are damaging to us. I mean... I can see the logic in it, but when you put it to the extreme like I did with crocodile and glue sniffing.. does this logic still hold?

Recently I discovered a revolutionary substance that seems to give people deep insights in their addictions and helps many to deal with them. for good! Ibogaine
I'm curious about it and in spite of what the path of enlightenment teaches, I might give it a try.

This is Mooji has to say about addiction.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=_fKeFjd4p78

So all in all, I am still confused about addictions and the path of lifting the veil of the mind.
I can see how we can use our addictions to find awareness, but when the addiction is getting so disruptive and damaging for the body or our loved ones... it gets me tangled up in my emotions about it. Isn't it just better to seek ways to end the addiction? I know what you said is more about not having a choice (unable to end the addiction?) Jeanette, but now that I started talking about it, it made me go this way here.

[another bob]

Posted by Wakytweaky (here)
So all in all, I am still confused about addictions and the path of lifting the veil of the mind.

Hiya Toek!

My two cents:

Addictions become obsolete when attention turns to something even more attractive. For example:

Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself. So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."

— Gospel of Thomas

In my own case, I was a smoker for many years. I also had assembled a substantial wine collection. When I met my Beloved, I gave away all my wine and haven't touched a drop in a decade, because she is more intoxicating to me than any wine. With the smoking, I realized that I would not be able to afford a life insurance policy if I was still smoking. Consequently, if I were to die, I would leave my Beloved without any financial support, so I stopped. You see, my Beloved's welfare was more attractive to me than my habits, so I discarded them.

[Eram]

Posted by another bob (here)

Posted by Wakytweaky (here)
So all in all, I am still confused about addictions and the path of lifting the veil of the mind.

Hiya Toek!

My two cents:

Addictions become obsolete when attention turns to something even more attractive. For example:

Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself. So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."

— Gospel of Thomas

In my own case, I was a smoker for many years. I also had assembled a substantial wine collection. When I met my Beloved, I gave away all my wine and haven't touched a drop in a decade, because she is more intoxicating to me than any wine. With the smoking, I realized that I would not be able to afford a life insurance policy if I was still smoking. Consequently, if I were to die, I would leave my Beloved without any financial support, so I stopped. You see, my Beloved's welfare was more attractive to me than my habits, so I discarded them.

Beautiful Bob,

You told us before about the wine, but this is the first time that I read about the smoking and the reason why you gave it up.
The love that you two share is like a beacon here on Pa.
It is to me anyway

But still: Picture yourself as someone who gets a taste of lifting the veil of the mind and he is simultaneously hooked on crocodile (a drug that literally rips the flesh from your bones). Does that person stand a chance to get to the point where the addiction becomes obsolete?

[another bob]

Posted by Wakytweaky (here)
Picture yourself as someone who gets a taste of lifting the veil of the mind and he is simultaneously hooked on crocodile (a drug that literally rips the flesh from your bones). Does that person stand a chance to get to the point where the addiction becomes obsolete?

Attention and intention.

Remember, your thoughts have power.

When you find out just how much, you will be amazed
that you ever let yourself be kicked around
by the puny frogs of craving.